Originally posted by Albertus:
Do they do High Church stuff at Liverpool, then?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:Uh... A late vocation. He knows a lot about oil.
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It looks like the decision on the next Archbishop of Canterbury has been made and leaked. What do we know about Justin Welby ...
quote:Anoint him!
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:Uh... A late vocation. He knows a lot about oil.
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It looks like the decision on the next Archbishop of Canterbury has been made and leaked. What do we know about Justin Welby ...
*
quote:Unfortunately* none of the front runners are willing to let go of the belief that the CofE has any business telling non-members who they should or should not marry. In a way that makes it easier inasmuch as it means that it least it isn't an issue for choosing between candidates; on the other hand it means I struggle to find particular support for any of them.
Originally posted by balaam:
If Welby makes the top name it leaves David Cameron with a dilemma.
With Cameron so keen on pushing through gay marriages will he be able to put forward a person who is so staunchly against it to the Queen. If Welby is chosen it is possible that Cameron would go for the fall back option.
quote:Is it your fault where YOU were sent to school? Too chippy by half....
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
O goody, another old Etonian.
quote:And whoever gets it, I suspect that once gay marriage is enshrined in law, the C of E will come round to accepting it as it has civil partnerships. More important than his attitude to this issue, it's more relevant that the ABC is pastorally accepting of his gay clergy (and laity of course, but that isn't a disiciplinary issue).
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Unfortunately* none of the front runners are willing to let go of the belief that the CofE has any business telling non-members who they should or should not marry.
quote:Eton is a very big school and not all Old Etonians go on to become members of the Bullingdon Club.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
O goody, another old Etonian.
quote:Did I say it was his fault? Just call me an unreconstructed class warrior.
Originally posted by dv:
quote:Is it your fault where YOU were sent to school? Too chippy by half....
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
O goody, another old Etonian.
quote:And as he went to Cambridge and not Oxford, presumably the Lord Bishop wasn't a member.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Eton is a very big school and not all Old Etonians go on to become members of the Bullingdon Club.
quote:Indeed. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Anyone who can write a dissertation titled "Can companies sin" could be very embarrassing to Osborne & co. I don't think it's decided yet.
quote:But possibly more relevant to overseeing the Anglican Communion.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
quote:As one who is about to lose his bishop after two minutes (+Ebbsfleet moving to Fulham), I can only imagine how pissed off Durham would be.
Originally posted by Angloid:
But I hope it is Justin. I feel for his family though, and for Durham.
quote:1. Me too - what is it with unelected committees and public school boys? If the music stops go for one of the chaps?
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
[QUOTE]
1. Did I say it was his fault? Just call me an unreconstructed class warrior.
2. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
quote:I've nothing at all against Justin but hasn't he had rather a protected existence - Eton, Cambridge and a scion of the Butler dynasty to boot? Please let him be who his is and not pretend he is somehow "down wiv da kids" when it comes to personal experience of social need. For all his faults, at least George Carey had been there and has never forgotten it.
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:But possibly more relevant to overseeing the Anglican Communion.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
quote:Is there a common theme in stuffing the Nigerians?
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:But possibly more relevant to overseeing the Anglican Communion.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
quote:I have had several e-mails from Nigerian princes offering me investment opportunities in that country's oil industry sector. Perhaps Bishop Welby's work experience will provide him with skills to take advantage of these offers on behalf of the Church Commissioners and the pension funds.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:Is there a common theme in stuffing the Nigerians?
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:But possibly more relevant to overseeing the Anglican Communion.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
quote:You mean, he may actually have some leadership skills?
Originally posted by Doc Tor
I imagine that if he has a weakness, it'll be this: he'll expect clergy and other bishops to toe the line...
quote:I detect the unpleasant smell of inverted snobbery.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark
I'd be more interested if he'd been an oil rig worker not an exceutive.
quote:Frankly, I am more interested in whether the ABC has integrity and a grasp of truth, than whether he had a privileged upbringing or not.
I've nothing at all against Justin but hasn't he had rather a protected existence - Eton, Cambridge and a scion of the Butler dynasty to boot? Please let him be who his is and not pretend he is somehow "down wiv da kids" when it comes to personal experience of social need. For all his faults, at least George Carey had been there and has never forgotten it.
An executive in an oil company is the real world? Please don't make me laugh - it cracks my make up. A real world possibly but not the real world - perhaps we need an ABC who has had to sweat blood to get state benefit to understand/experience real life.
He's establishment. Period.
quote:1. I agree with you.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
[QUOTE]
1. Frankly, I am more interested in whether the ABC has integrity and a grasp of truth, than whether he had a privileged upbringing or not.
2. As someone who has had experience of different levels of society (ex public school*, ex uni, ex international sales, currently in a very low paid job following redundancy), I can assure you that the romanticised view of those "at the bottom", and the vilification of those "at the top", is misguided and discriminatory.
quote:He used to attend HTB, so I guess he's a charismatic evangelical.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is he evangelical?
quote:Yes. But I'm not certain those are what's needed for the CofE, or the Anglican Communion. What he needs is the herding cats skill, and he may not have been in the church long enough to develop that.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:You mean, he may actually have some leadership skills?
Originally posted by Doc Tor
I imagine that if he has a weakness, it'll be this: he'll expect clergy and other bishops to toe the line...
quote:That's historic, not ironic. British public schools are open to the public, which is where the name comes from. Anyone who can pay the fees can have an education. When they were formed, that was an innovation. It's also why they qualify as charities.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
*for N. American readers that's private school (we do love our irony!)
quote:Goodness, that's going to prove interesting!
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:He used to attend HTB, so I guess he's a charismatic evangelical.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is he evangelical?
quote:Since when have leadership skills been synonymous with expecting the "led" to toe the party line? Heaven forbid that this thinking should be present in the church. Leadership (in the church, anyway) should be the art of enabling people and churches to be released into the ministries set aside for them by the Holy Spirit. The only authentic authority of a Christian, be he or she lay, deacon, priest, bishop or archbishop, is the authority to serve. "Let a thousand flowers bloom" might be a phrase coined by an atheist, but ISTM to encapsulate the manifold nature of the Church's mission.
originally posted by Etymological Evangelicalquote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor
I imagine that if he has a weakness, it'll be this: he'll expect clergy and other bishops to toe the line...
You mean, he may actually have some leadership skills?
quote:Bishop Ryle must be turning in his grave at what they get up to in 'his' cathedral, but it's no way 'high church'. Just very ponderous and pompous 'cathedral' worship.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Do they do High Church stuff at Liverpool, then?
quote:I'm quite sure there are, probably many more than admit to it, but, even amongst evangelical CofE congregations, my (admittedly anecdotally based) view lay people think that the church is making itself look foolish over the idea, since the whole thing is a done deal in society at large, and we should get on with blessing and strengthening the good.
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
Are there any bishops at all in the C of E who support same-sex marriage?
quote:Nick Holtam, apparently.
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
Are there any bishops at all in the C of E who support same-sex marriage?
quote:That seems extraordinarily naive. Actually, it's just plain wrong. There are plenty of people who would disagree with the idea that he is a Good Thing as ABC. His inexperience, his privileged background, his views on homosexuality... the list of potential objections is long (as indeed it would be for EVERY candidate).
Originally posted by Custard:
He seems to be that very rare thing in the C of E - someone whom all sides can agree is a Good Thing.
quote:Only if you think the oil industry is comparable to the C of E. And only if you agree that part of the role description for the ABC is to oversee the Anglican Communion. I would challenge both assumptions.
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:But possibly more relevant to overseeing the Anglican Communion.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
quote:1. I do think this is a potential problem. The people at large in the UK are already deeply wary of the way that Old Etonians now seem to be running most of the country. It is as if we have stepped back in time 100 years or so. When added to the increasing irrelevancy of the C of E, there is a strong argument to be made that Welby's appointment (IF true) would be regarded as another step into irrelevancy.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. Me too - what is it with unelected committees and public school boys? If the music stops go for one of the chaps?
2. I'd be more interested if he'd been an oil rig worker not an exceutive.
3. He ain't the first to reflect on whether companies can sin .... don't big him up too much, too soon.
quote:Still here. I'm not believing a word about Welby's appointment until it's official.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Where's that lad with the blindfold gone?
quote:What do you mean 'fault'??
Originally posted by Angloid
The fact that he went to Eton (hardly his fault anyway)...
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
quote:It would be interesting to look at his diary and see where he spends his time when he visits schools and such like. The last time I saw such an analysis, the people concerned spent a disproportionate amount of time in public (private) schools and not much elsewhere.
Originally posted by Angloid:
I certainly don't think +Justin shows any signs of being a snob, inverted or otherwise.
quote:I saw some video footage of that service which was celebrated in the glorious Lady Chapel of Liverpool Cathedral. The service was every bit as grand as the setting which can itself accommodate several hundred worshipers. Good for Justin for hosting the event there.
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:... it seems a good deal less ponderous and pompous after three years of Dean Welby ... It was Justin who hosted the Walsingham Day at the cathedral, complete with Exposition of the MBS and Solemn Evensong (I can't remember whether that came with Benediction but I rather think it did).
Originally posted by Albertus:
Do they do High Church stuff at Liverpool, then?
quote:That sounds promising! Giles Fraser rocks.
Originally posted by Angloid:
Giles Fraser, who has just accepted an award from Stonewall for being supportive of gay rights, thinks he's a good thing.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:Absolutely not. And those who jump to such conclusions on zero evidence are idiots.
Originally posted by CJS:
So not Peter Jensen then?
quote:why not do just that before making assumptions? His youngest daughter (I don't know about the rest of the family) attends an inner-city comprehensive school.
It would be interesting to look at his diary and see where he spends his time when he visits schools and such like. The last time I saw such an analysis, the people concerned spent a disproportionate amount of time in public (private) schools and not much elsewhere.
quote:I'm afraid that has something of the ring of truth about it, CK. I know Gordon Brown famously declared that he would not interfere with church appointments. Does anyone know Call me Dave's position on this?
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Cynical thought - now this news of an appointment has been leaked, what chance has PM Cameron of saying no, now? Is the leak a way of forcing Cameron's hand?
quote:You'd expect that.
Originally posted by Albertus:
Trinity man, too!
quote:Whatever your views on Fraser, I'm sure we can all agree that he's not infallible. I have many misgivings about the appointment, closely aligned with Oscar's concerns.
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:That sounds promising! Giles Fraser rocks.
Originally posted by Angloid:
Giles Fraser, who has just accepted an award from Stonewall for being supportive of gay rights, thinks he's a good thing.
quote:This piece?
Originally posted by Amos:
Giles Fraser did a big interview piece with him for the Guardian last year in which he said that +Dunelm would be his choice for Canterbury. It must be somewhere in the archive there.
quote:I agree. And their names should be leaked...
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
d) Once this whole farago is over, whoever gets the job should make it his first priority to identify everyone in the CNC and in senior levels at Church House who has been leaking to the press and then sacking them. There's no excuse.
quote:I'm sure there's good biblical precedent...
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm not sure what it says about the CofE that the best choice for Canterbury is one of the least experienced of all the bishops.
quote:Indeed. But there's a big practical difference between being a bishop and being a priest. In fact, there's a clear theological distinction drawn between the two. I don't think the relatively short time he's been a bishop should disqualify him in any way, but I'm not convinced that it would be possible to reach an accurate assessment of his strengths and weaknesses based on that.
Originally posted by Amos:
I'd said that too, TGG, but then I thought about it, and the thing that struck me was not the shortness of time that +Durham has been a bishop but the fact that he has been a priest for twenty years. He should be formed in his priesthood: that's the important thing, it seems to me, not the length of time he's been a bishop. There's always a danger of preferment in the CofE having a clear career path (with elements of Buggins' Turn incorporated). Which would have landed us with Ebor.
quote:There would be many evangelicals who'd immediately invoke the No True Scotsman argument if Welby spoke in favour...
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Interesting thought about Liverpool, Jolly Jape. I'm also trying to be positive by thinking that if the church is ever going to be dragged out of the dark ages on homosexuality and SSM, it would help if it was led by someone who the evangelicals would consider to be "one of us".
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
), at least it is not Graham James, who, through no fault of his own, bears the same name as a Canadian serial sex predator, which causes my innards to squick, even if my brain knows differently.
quote:I'm sure that's true, Doc, but he might just find at least a substantial minority cheering him on. A volte-face could be opportunism or a serious bout of metanoia. My feeling is that evo's would be more likely to think it the latter if the person responsible is "one of us". In that respect, ++Justin's credentials are as impeccable as those of ++Setamu's.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:There would be many evangelicals who'd immediately invoke the No True Scotsman argument if Welby spoke in favour...
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Interesting thought about Liverpool, Jolly Jape. I'm also trying to be positive by thinking that if the church is ever going to be dragged out of the dark ages on homosexuality and SSM, it would help if it was led by someone who the evangelicals would consider to be "one of us".
quote:If we believe the BBC:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
So Welby is anti SSM. Do we know what his views are homosexuality in general, and homosexual clergy in particular?
quote:
He has been less forthright about his views on homosexuality. While he has rigorously defended the Church's right to oppose single-sex marriages, he has also been keen to accommodate opposing views expressed from a position of deeply held faith.
quote:I think there is a lot of truth to this. In the same way, it would perhaps have caused much less rancour and political difficulty if the changes to trade union law in the 80s had been handled by a Labour government, or if the introduction of a minimum wage had been done by the Tories.
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I'm also trying to be positive by thinking that if the church is ever going to be dragged out of the dark ages on homosexuality and SSM, it would help if it was led by someone who the evangelicals would consider to be "one of us".
quote:Not just biblical. The great St Ambrose went from catechumen to Bishop of Milan in just over a week. I'm really just imagining the Crown Appointments committee sitting round a table, throwing the names of bishops into baskets marked "Too Old", "Too Catholic", "Too Mad" ...
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:I'm sure there's good biblical precedent...
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm not sure what it says about the CofE that the best choice for Canterbury is one of the least experienced of all the bishops.
quote:Is it?
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Except that, whether we like it or not, one of the primary reasons for the perceived irrelevance of the CofE amongst the great unchurched is precisely that dead horse.
quote:Sorry, but when your ten year deadline for collapse arrives the Anglican Communion will still exist in some definitely recognizable form. Some churches or groups may elect to leave it, or some type of rival Anglican type of competitor may be formed, but the core of the Anglican Communion as we know it will still be around.
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
... I think the next ten years will see the collapse of the Worldwide Anglican Communion and I worry for Justin because of that. I thought he would be the one after this one who would have to pick up the pieces.
quote:So anyone who thinks the church is backward, dishonest or simply bigoted on this matter is just making excuses for themselves - how wonderfully convenient! And what a marvellous gift you have, being able to discern people's innermost thoughts and motivations!
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Is it?
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Except that, whether we like it or not, one of the primary reasons for the perceived irrelevance of the CofE amongst the great unchurched is precisely that dead horse.
It isn't among people I meet. Where it is claimed to be, it's usually claimed in the way the woman at the well in Samaria suddenly launched off about the temple on Mount Gerizim. That is to say, a diversionary tactic when this mysterious Jewish man seemed to be getting too close to the knuckle about who and where she was.
I needn't consider whether God might be speaking to me, because of 'what about teh gays'.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:So anyone who thinks the church is backward, dishonest or simply bigoted on this matter is just making excuses for themselves - how wonderfully convenient! And what a marvellous gift you have, being able to discern people's innermost thoughts and motivations!
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Is it?
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Except that, whether we like it or not, one of the primary reasons for the perceived irrelevance of the CofE amongst the great unchurched is precisely that dead horse.
It isn't among people I meet. Where it is claimed to be, it's usually claimed in the way the woman at the well in Samaria suddenly launched off about the temple on Mount Gerizim. That is to say, a diversionary tactic when this mysterious Jewish man seemed to be getting too close to the knuckle about who and where she was.
I needn't consider whether God might be speaking to me, because of 'what about teh gays'.
quote:That boat already sailed. There's a broad Anglican brand and Anglican family resemblances but there isn't an Anglican Communion. The mistake was always to think that there would be a major schism, instead what happened was much less noticeable - a slow death of unity. There isn't an interchangeable ministry, there isn't common prayer, there's huge controversy around the so-called instruments of communion. People don't meet together and some can't even bear to take communion with each other. There isn't yet a more federal structure to acknowledge changed relationships. That's probably, Justin Welby's job to reconcile and rebuild something which takes greater account of autonomy as opposed to mutuality and interdependence.
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:Sorry, but when your ten year deadline for collapse arrives the Anglican Communion will still exist in some definitely recognizable form. Some churches or groups may elect to leave it, or some type of rival Anglican type of competitor may be formed, but the core of the Anglican Communion as we know it will still be around.
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
... I think the next ten years will see the collapse of the Worldwide Anglican Communion and I worry for Justin because of that. I thought he would be the one after this one who would have to pick up the pieces.
*
quote:I think this is right - the "Communion" in "Anglican Communion" has been more and more a fiction in recent years. Perhaps, to use a domestic metaphor, we have to learn the art of living in the same house without actually living together. And from the little I know of him, I think Justin Welby is up to the task.
Originally posted by Spawn:
That boat already sailed. There's a broad Anglican brand and Anglican family resemblances but there isn't an Anglican Communion. The mistake was always to think that there would be a major schism, instead what happened was much less noticeable - a slow death of unity. There isn't an interchangeable ministry, there isn't common prayer, there's huge controversy around the so-called instruments of communion. People don't meet together and some can't even bear to take communion with each other. There isn't yet a more federal structure to acknowledge changed relationships. That's probably, Justin Welby's job to reconcile and rebuild something which takes greater account of autonomy as opposed to mutuality and interdependence.
quote:I think this is right - the "Communion" in "Anglican Communion" has been more and more a fiction in recent years. Perhaps, to use a domestic metaphor, we have to learn the art of living in the same house without actually living together. And from the little I know of him, I think Justin Welby is up to the task.
Originally posted by Spawn:
That boat already sailed. There's a broad Anglican brand and Anglican family resemblances but there isn't an Anglican Communion. The mistake was always to think that there would be a major schism, instead what happened was much less noticeable - a slow death of unity. There isn't an interchangeable ministry, there isn't common prayer, there's huge controversy around the so-called instruments of communion. People don't meet together and some can't even bear to take communion with each other. There isn't yet a more federal structure to acknowledge changed relationships. That's probably, Justin Welby's job to reconcile and rebuild something which takes greater account of autonomy as opposed to mutuality and interdependence.
quote:And which inner-city comprehensive would that be?
Originally posted by Angloid:
His youngest daughter (I don't know about the rest of the family) attends an inner-city comprehensive school. [/QB]
quote:Where we disagree is on the "definitely recognizable form". I think the African churches will drop out in the next decade over increasingly overt acceptance of homosexuality and SSM by UK Anglicans. Once that happens, the term Anglican Communion will have even less meaning and work will need to be done to redefine the place of the CoE among the different groups of Anglican churches across the world. The Communion as we know it won't exist.
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:Sorry, but when your ten year deadline for collapse arrives the Anglican Communion will still exist in some definitely recognizable form. Some churches or groups may elect to leave it, or some type of rival Anglican type of competitor may be formed, but the core of the Anglican Communion as we know it will still be around.
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
... I think the next ten years will see the collapse of the Worldwide Anglican Communion and I worry for Justin because of that. I thought he would be the one after this one who would have to pick up the pieces.
*
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:I'm not sure I like the idea of posting details about which teenage girl goes to what school online. Somethng a bit stalky about it. Maybe that's because I'm a parent. Your mileage may vary.
Originally posted by aumbry:
And which inner-city comprehensive would that be?
quote:That's not the Anglican Communion, that's the Church of England.
Originally posted by Spawn:
There isn't an interchangeable ministry, there isn't common prayer, there's huge controversy around the so-called instruments of communion. People don't meet together and some can't even bear to take communion with each other.
quote:I agree with this completely. But tell me Enoch, which side keeps telling the other that they are sinners? Which side tells the other how they should live? Which side want to impose their view on the other? If all shades of opinion really did get on with living in fellowship with those who disagree, I would be delighted!
As far as the great dead horse is concerned, all shades of opinion are going to have to accept that they are called to get on with each other and live in fellowship with each other, without the prospect of either imposing their view on the other or converting the other to it.
quote:1. Unrealistic? What about Rowan? better to say "it's possible that ... depending on the pressure applied."
Originally posted by leo:
And for his views on gay marriage,
1. it would be unrealistic to expect a bishop to depart from the party line, with few exceptions,
2. ... Cameron isn't going to ask the Church to solemnise them anyway.
3. That he shares Cameron's school background might mean that he is well-placed to speak truth to power.
quote:"JW"? So the ABC is a JW?
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I understand that JW is being credited with being ...
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
quote:I would tend to agree with this. I've heard her many times on "The Big Questions", and it's not that I always disagree with her, but she does seem a little naïve and ignorant - yet very arrogant with it. Maybe not nasty, just annoying.
Originally posted by leo:
(Alison) Ruoff is virtually a fundamentalist and against women exercising 'headship'. She said he upholds the bible - which is her shorthand for 'he is anti-gay'. She also said that he was a proper leader and that we haven't had any leadership at all from Rowan. Nasty woman.
quote:Thanks for the link - and isn't it good, Mark to have a measure of agreement on something?
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:I would tend to agree with this. I've heard her many times on "The Big Questions", and it's not that I always disagree with her, but she does seem a little naïve and ignorant - yet very arrogant with it. Maybe not nasty, just annoying.
Originally posted by leo:
(Alison) Ruoff is virtually a fundamentalist and against women exercising 'headship'. She said he upholds the bible - which is her shorthand for 'he is anti-gay'. She also said that he was a proper leader and that we haven't had any leadership at all from Rowan. Nasty woman.
To balance things, I've linked to a somewhat different view, courtesy of the Torygraph:
A new Archbishop but no change at Canterbury: Justin Welby is just another Left-wing establishment bureaucrat
Don't shoot the messenger - they are not my views (necessarily).
quote:His term in office is unlikely to be boring?
Originally posted by shamwari:
People seem not to have commented on the fact that he comes out of the HTB stable = Alpha course and all.
What does this signify?
quote:Quite - and life at the helm of the C of E will be anything but boring, alongside John Sentamu, another larger than life character!
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
His term in office is unlikely to be boring?
quote:Add to that the statement in today's press release:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:I'm afraid that has something of the ring of truth about it, CK. I know Gordon Brown famously declared that he would not interfere with church appointments. Does anyone know Call me Dave's position on this?
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Cynical thought - now this news of an appointment has been leaked, what chance has PM Cameron of saying no, now? Is the leak a way of forcing Cameron's hand?
If someone did take it on themself to push the process on in their desired direction, keep an eye on early retirememts from amongst those privvy to the decision making.
quote:
Since 2007 the agreed convention in relation to episcopal appointments has been that the Prime Minister commends the name preferred by the Commission to the Queen. The second name is identified in case, for whatever reason, there is a change of circumstances which means that the appointment of the CNC’s recommended candidate cannot proceed
quote:[[LIKED]] by Mark Betts
Originally posted by Badger Lady:
Another Torygraph article on the new ABC's crozier . Given my monike,r I feel I cannot let this pass the ship by unnoticed.
quote:Well, quite.
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
All I can think about is how the Diocese of Durham after finding a bishop last year, now has to start the process again to find another new bishop.
It seems a tad unfair from their perspective.
quote:No details are given, and I wouldn't ordinarily credit everything written by a columnist in The Telegraph. But from the perspective of someone outside the U.K., this doesn't seem to fit into the other information posted here.
Also, it seems that the new Archbishop is on the excitable wing of the contemporary church. He writes of “…a youth group on a week away who dared a short time of prayer…and prayed for the Holy Spirit to come upon the youth. The response was utterly dramatic. They fell to the ground, spoke in tongues – you name it.”
quote:Lighten up, Angloid - the comment was likely to have been in jest. There are many in Australia - and definitely many here in Sydney - who would have been delighted to have exported ++Peter Jensen - and his brother and other members of the family - over to the UK: would have been your loss, but definitely our gain!
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:Absolutely not. And those who jump to such conclusions on zero evidence are idiots.
Originally posted by CJS:
So not Peter Jensen then?
quote:Well the current one is a Druid.
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:"JW"? So the ABC is a JW?
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I understand that JW is being credited with being ...
quote:It obviously takes an Australian to spot an Australian attempt at humour. Maybe I'll just stick to stoking my fires of puritan vengeance for next time.
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
quote:Absolutely not. And those who jump to such conclusions on zero evidence are idiots.
Originally posted by CJS:
So not Peter Jensen then?
Lighten up, Angloid - the comment was likely to have been in jest. There are many in Australia - and definitely many here in Sydney - who would have been delighted to have exported ++Peter Jensen - and his brother and other members of the family - over to the UK: would have been your loss, but definitely our gain!
But realistically, we all know that such an appointment (even if possible) would have been disastrous for the Communion - the fires of puritan vengence would have burned hot!
quote:
Originally posted by Badger Lady:
Another Torygraph article on the new ABC's crozier . Given my monike,r I feel I cannot let this pass the ship by unnoticed.
quote:Actually, it probably fits very well indeed for someone closely associated with HTB. He was talking about a week away, not a public worship service, and such goings-on are the warp and weft of that particular spirituality. But he is probably sufficiently aware of the consituency to which he is speaking to not scare the horses. Sure, the traditionalists will raise their eyebrows, and the puritans will froth at the mouth a bit, but I somehow think that the combination of a shrewd mind and a life daily animated by a dynamic experience of the Holy Spirit will stand him in good stead in the onerous task set before him. I, for one, pray that it may be so.
Originally posted by roybart:
From the Telegraph article linked by leo:
quote:No details are given, and I wouldn't ordinarily credit everything written by a columnist in The Telegraph. But from the perspective of someone outside the U.K., this doesn't seem to fit into the other information posted here.
Also, it seems that the new Archbishop is on the excitable wing of the contemporary church. He writes of “…a youth group on a week away who dared a short time of prayer…and prayed for the Holy Spirit to come upon the youth. The response was utterly dramatic. They fell to the ground, spoke in tongues – you name it.”
How common or uncommon is such a perspective within the Anglican Church today? And how controversial?
quote:It seems to be last man standing.
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Who is going to be the new Bishop of Durham?
quote:Yes, I think that is quite a worry. From what I had heard, I thought he sounded like a practical man who might just, for instance, question those 39 articles and move towards a far more rational point of view.
Originally posted by shamwari:
People seem not to have commented on the fact that he comes out of the HTB stable = Alpha course and all.
What does this signify?
quote:He's a thoroughgoing supernaturalist. But a lot of otherwise rational Christians are.
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:Yes, I think that is quite a worry. From what I had heard, I thought he sounded like a practical man who might just, for instance, question those 39 articles and move towards a far more rational point of view.
Originally posted by shamwari:
People seem not to have commented on the fact that he comes out of the HTB stable = Alpha course and all.
What does this signify?
quote:Isn't that a bit like saying you were hoping the next President of the BHA would introduce starting each meeting with a short word of prayer?
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Yes, I think that is quite a worry. From what I had heard, I thought he sounded like a practical man who might just, for instance, question those 39 articles and move towards a far more rational point of view.
quote:I agree. Although an evangelical myself I don't think it is good for the CodE, or Anglicanism in general, to have both English archbishops as evangelicals. One is fine.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wouldn't want to see a CofE that was exclusively evangelical and where only the HTB-look-alikes thrive, but the onus is on the liberal catholics, Anglo-Catholics and MoR people to get their house in order.
quote:I see your post-Savile point. My point was made because all the academics and doubtless bishops in Durham send their children to Durham Johnston which is hardly an inner city comprehensive. I knew a member of staff there who funnily enough transferred to Eton. I also wonder where the bishop sent his children to school when he was an oil executive. I somehow doubt whether the bishop really rises above the usual English middle class hypocrisy when it comes to education. It certainly would be admirable if he does.
Originally posted by ken:
quote:I'm not sure I like the idea of posting details about which teenage girl goes to what school online. Somethng a bit stalky about it. Maybe that's because I'm a parent. Your mileage may vary.
Originally posted by aumbry:
And which inner-city comprehensive would that be?
quote:But he's Eton/Cambridge, which is likely to make him less right wing than the stereotypical 'Old-Etonian' Eton/Oxford lot.
Originally posted by BroJames:
and he is certainly not a stereotypical 'Old-Etonian'.
quote:I know I disagree with you about everything but why stop at the trivial I ask myself.
Originally posted by aumbry:
All the pictures I have seen of him he looks like he is suffering from a goitre.
quote:It was the popping out eyes I had in mind
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:I know I disagree with you about everything but why stop at the trivial I ask myself.
Originally posted by aumbry:
All the pictures I have seen of him he looks like he is suffering from a goitre.
I don't see any hint of a goitre.
Seems to have a perfectly creditable anterior neck in my estimation, perhaps a little light in the crico-thyroid region and could do with a little more sub-mental fullness, but perhaps I'm not the connoisseur of necks in profile that I might be.
Maybe his marks in other areas made up for it on the score sheet.
quote:On the face of it you are right it is superficial but appearance is a matter of importance and history tells us that successful leaders have a charisma and a certain sort of appearance. Many of the finest politicians have got nowhere simply because they looked odd.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How - um - superficial of you, aumbry.
quote:Many thanks for clarifying. If only I had not been asleep during biology lessons
Originally posted by BroJames:
You're thinking of hyperthyroidism or Graves' Disease, Goitre is a term that refers to an enlargement of the thyroid (thyromegaly) and can be associated with a thyroid gland that is functioning properly or not.
quote:Is the reference to an 'inner city comprehensive' a reference to Liverpool, where the status is more apparent? Actually this issue does raise a serious point: for his children this is a horrendous second transfer within as many years. Maybe we should bring back celibate bishops
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:I see your post-Savile point. My point was made because all the academics and doubtless bishops in Durham send their children to Durham Johnston which is hardly an inner city comprehensive. I knew a member of staff there who funnily enough transferred to Eton. I also wonder where the bishop sent his children to school when he was an oil executive. I somehow doubt whether the bishop really rises above the usual English middle class hypocrisy when it comes to education. It certainly would be admirable if he does.
Originally posted by ken:
quote:I'm not sure I like the idea of posting details about which teenage girl goes to what school online. Somethng a bit stalky about it. Maybe that's because I'm a parent. Your mileage may vary.
Originally posted by aumbry:
And which inner-city comprehensive would that be?
quote:Aumbry has a point if only because the camera (and those who direct them) like a certain look. A certain chin shape=resolute leader. A certain skin tone suggests age, tiredness, a lack of vigour, unawareness of young people's issues. And if the person is noticeably overweight, a lack of discipline and a range of health issues is assumed-- I have seen polling which showed that Stephen Harper's ratings improved when he lost 20lb.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How - um - superficial of you, aumbry.
quote:Do you really think the churchmanship of those two English archbishops makes any significant difference at all to 'Anglicanism in general' nowadays?
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:I agree. Although an evangelical myself I don't think it is good for the CodE, or Anglicanism in general, to have both English archbishops as evangelicals. One is fine.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wouldn't want to see a CofE that was exclusively evangelical and where only the HTB-look-alikes thrive, but the onus is on the liberal catholics, Anglo-Catholics and MoR people to get their house in order.
quote:But shouldn't the church be rising above this? I would really prefer not to see the Church kowtowing to sound bite politics and the politics of appearances. As part of the countercultural nature we hope religion still holds to, almost certainly in vain.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:Aumbry has a point if only because the camera (and those who direct them) like a certain look. A certain chin shape=resolute leader. A certain skin tone suggests age, tiredness, a lack of vigour, unawareness of young people's issues. And if the person is noticeably overweight, a lack of discipline and a range of health issues is assumed-- I have seen polling which showed that Stephen Harper's ratings improved when he lost 20lb.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How - um - superficial of you, aumbry.
There is a level where, like it or not, leaders or spokesmen must be a friend of the camera or they won't be heeded. I remember well how one otherwise capable politician (I didn't like him at all, but that's neither here nor there) was bluntly told that his leadership prospects were nil but that, if we were only in the era of campaigning by radio, he would be "in like Flynn."
I am certain that if ++Rowan had his hair and beard trimmed closely, he would have had less difficulty with the press. Cleanshaven and with contact lenses, even better (research sugggests that a beard loses a candidate about 5% and a set of glasses 3% so using these numbers, ++Rowan lost one out of twelve just by showing up).
quote:Oh, FFS, Aumbry. That's the same line of argument that Romney used: he 'looked Presidential.'
Originally posted by aumbry:
I am sure he is an excellent man and I really hope he will do well but he has one problem which will make it very difficult for him as archbishop and this is the same problem that Rowan Williams had: he looks odd. All the pictures I have seen of him he looks like he is suffering from a goitre. Unfortunately to be a leader you need to look like a leader and he simply doesn't. The only anglican who has the right look was Richard Chartres but he is now too old.
quote:On the basis that Romney seems to have done remarkably well with a lot of political disadvantages then perhaps that proves the point. If the Church of England wants to be counter-cultural and become the Green Party at prayer all well and good but there is a danger it will go the way of Dr Timothy Leary and Wampum beads.
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:Oh, FFS, Aumbry. That's the same line of argument that Romney used: he 'looked Presidential.'
Originally posted by aumbry:
I am sure he is an excellent man and I really hope he will do well but he has one problem which will make it very difficult for him as archbishop and this is the same problem that Rowan Williams had: he looks odd. All the pictures I have seen of him he looks like he is suffering from a goitre. Unfortunately to be a leader you need to look like a leader and he simply doesn't. The only anglican who has the right look was Richard Chartres but he is now too old.
Christians look odd. Archbishops look even odder. I can't think of a single one in my lifetime who didn't, even without the crosier and mitre and rochet and cope and Canterbury cap, and gaiters. Fisher? Ramsey? Coggan? Runcie? Surely not. Carey? Well, actually Carey was the one who didn't look odd. Maybe that was the reason for his selection.
quote:Sorry I meant to add: and the period that the above were leaders was one of unparalleled decline (not that I would put that down to their appearance).
Originally posted by Amos:
Christians look odd. Archbishops look even odder. I can't think of a single one in my lifetime who didn't, even without the crosier and mitre and rochet and cope and Canterbury cap, and gaiters. Fisher? Ramsey? Coggan? Runcie? Surely not. Carey? Well, actually Carey was the one who didn't look odd. Maybe that was the reason for his selection. [/QB]
quote:I can't begin to imagine the part that facial appearance plays in this decline and madness.
Originally posted by aumbry:
If the Church of England wants to be counter-cultural and become the Green Party at prayer all well and good but there is a danger it will go the way of Dr Timothy Leary and Wampum beads.
quote:A non sequitur surely?
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I didn't think that any of them looked odd. Certainly not Williams, who was utterly charming in every way.
quote:Put in another way. He looks exactly like Rowan Williams. If a newspaper were to put a photograph of George Osborne or Nick Clegg over a caption of David Cameron, how many people would notice?
Originally posted by BroJames:
Not if "charming in every way" includes his looks.
quote:Shirley Not. But I'd point out that the same period saw decline in all the established mainstream churches. This is a societal trend; there are things churches can do to cause local anomolies within that trend, but actually I think there's very little the church as an institution can. Despite my misgivings (i.e. He Doesn't Exactly Agree With Me On Everything Like A Right Thinking Person Would) the choice appears to be very wisely someone who won't offend one or more groups to the point of guaranteeing a split whilst hopefully having the skills to get certain factions willing to accept the common humanity of certain other factions. We'll work on Christian unity later.
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:Sorry I meant to add: and the period that the above were leaders was one of unparalleled decline (not that I would put that down to their appearance). [/QB]
Originally posted by Amos:
Christians look odd. Archbishops look even odder. I can't think of a single one in my lifetime who didn't, even without the crosier and mitre and rochet and cope and Canterbury cap, and gaiters. Fisher? Ramsey? Coggan? Runcie? Surely not. Carey? Well, actually Carey was the one who didn't look odd. Maybe that was the reason for his selection.
quote:What is this obsession with how they look? Are you practicing to write for the Daily Mail's women's section or something?
Originally posted by aumbry:
That is not an argument that Rowan Williams doesn't look odd merely that Cameron, Osbourne et al have a clone-like quality although I actually think Cameron looks a bit odd. Less so the other two.
And since when was Cameron the essense of a successful leader? I would put him in with John Major (although not quite as odd looking as Major).
quote:Actually I think Welby will be a breath of fresh air and will be the best Archbishop for a long time. But I think the "look" is important nonetheless.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:What is this obsession with how they look? Are you practicing to write for the Daily Mail's women's section or something?
Originally posted by aumbry:
That is not an argument that Rowan Williams doesn't look odd merely that Cameron, Osbourne et al have a clone-like quality although I actually think Cameron looks a bit odd. Less so the other two.
And since when was Cameron the essense of a successful leader? I would put him in with John Major (although not quite as odd looking as Major).
Actually, do. It could hardly be worse than the "Oh dear it's awful being pretty" of Samantha "needs to be hit around the back of the head with a" Brick, for example.
quote:Really? I always thought of him as rather smug and rude.
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Certainly not Williams, who was utterly charming in every way.
quote:Groans....
Originally posted by CJS:
Well the current one is a Druid.
quote:In vain is the word. Yes, we should rise above this, but I don't think that we can. Sound bites are one of the principal means of contact with a wider public and (this is an even graver problem), leaders' ability to manage soundbites is deemed by influential people to be the main indicator by which their capacity, and the worth of their message's content, is to be judged. And I think that it is getting worse, not better.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
quote:But shouldn't the church be rising above this? I would really prefer not to see the Church kowtowing to sound bite politics and the politics of appearances. As part of the countercultural nature we hope religion still holds to, almost certainly in vain.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:Aumbry has a point if only because the camera (and those who direct them) like a certain look. A certain chin shape=resolute leader. A certain skin tone suggests age, tiredness, a lack of vigour, unawareness of young people's issues. And if the person is noticeably overweight, a lack of discipline and a range of health issues is assumed-- I have seen polling which showed that Stephen Harper's ratings improved when he lost 20lb.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
How - um - superficial of you, aumbry.
There is a level where, like it or not, leaders or spokesmen must be a friend of the camera or they won't be heeded. I remember well how one otherwise capable politician (I didn't like him at all, but that's neither here nor there) was bluntly told that his leadership prospects were nil but that, if we were only in the era of campaigning by radio, he would be "in like Flynn."
I am certain that if ++Rowan had his hair and beard trimmed closely, he would have had less difficulty with the press. Cleanshaven and with contact lenses, even better (research sugggests that a beard loses a candidate about 5% and a set of glasses 3% so using these numbers, ++Rowan lost one out of twelve just by showing up).
I also don't think Justin Welby is that odd looking, and the thought of appointing Richard Charteris just because he looks right is fairly mind boggling.
quote:Pesci was not offered Canterbury because of his stance on the OOW. A shame because he would have brought some discipline to the Worldwide Anglican Communion.
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've always thought the Pope looks like Joe Pesci of Goodfellas ball point pen stabbing fame. If he can get past that, sweet looking Welby has nothing to worry about.
quote:Well said, Enoch!
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Isn't that a bit like saying you were hoping the next President of the BHA would introduce starting each meeting with a short word of prayer?
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Yes, I think that is quite a worry. From what I had heard, I thought he sounded like a practical man who might just, for instance, question those 39 articles and move towards a far more rational point of view.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:Aumbry wouldn't approve. They've ALL got beards.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If it is any consolation, the Orthies have it even worse. I am really trying hard to remember an occasion in the past 20 years when any of their prelates was not given the Too Weird for Words bum's rush by the media.
quote:Instead of a matinee idol they gave a gawky bloke the Ambrose of Milan treatment.
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:Aumbry wouldn't approve. They've ALL got beards.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If it is any consolation, the Orthies have it even worse. I am really trying hard to remember an occasion in the past 20 years when any of their prelates was not given the Too Weird for Words bum's rush by the media.
If it's looks that matter, why bother about spirituality or experience? Why not just select a matinée idol and promote him straight though the ranks like Ambrose of Milan?
Would it be better to go for one of the younger, action-man hero types, or someone more mature like Hugh Bonneville? After all, presumably he's used to being in the House of Lords.
quote:It could be seen as a green light to provinces such as Nigeria and a snub to others (USA?). Of course it won't make a difference to the relationship between Nigeria and USA. (What relationship?) But both provinces are AFAIK in communion with Canterbury.
Originally posted by CJS:
quote:Do you really think the churchmanship of those two English archbishops makes any significant difference at all to 'Anglicanism in general' nowadays?
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:I agree. Although an evangelical myself I don't think it is good for the CodE, or Anglicanism in general, to have both English archbishops as evangelicals. One is fine.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I wouldn't want to see a CofE that was exclusively evangelical and where only the HTB-look-alikes thrive, but the onus is on the liberal catholics, Anglo-Catholics and MoR people to get their house in order.
quote:The Lambeth DD being a substantive DD, not an honorary one, the question may be whether the new Archbishop has done and published sufficient work to warrant a doctorate. As he isn't an academic, this seems unlikely. As for whether it matters, I imagine the media will get used to saying 'The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby" rather than 'The Archbishop of Canterbury, Doctor Rowan Williams' and hardly anyone will notice.
Originally posted by Albertus:
BTW, is Rowan going to fix him up with a Lambeth DD? (I don't think he's got a doctorate already.) Or does that sort of thing not matter any more?
quote:But only if it was Oxford or Cambridge. George Carey went to London, and chose to continue the practice of his predecessor - Oxford dress.
Originally posted by Albertus:
I believe that the practice was -and perhaps still is- for Lambeth graduates to wear the robes of the Universty of the Archbishop who conferred the degree.
quote:These are the topics, along with the OoW as bishops, where the man at the helm will have the most influence over the church he hands on to his successors, so that's probably why. On matters of pure theology, the various wings of the CofE have been happy to let those weird people in the next parish get on with worshipping God their way, while they do it His way, for decades. Centuries even. So as long as he's not going to say anything grossly stupid when asked for a comment for the press to misrepresent, his churchmanship and associated theology is a matter of relative unimportance.
Originally posted by shamwari:
Any chance of him singing In Christ Alone at his enthronment?
That would tell us something about his theology which I presume ought to be an important aspect of his ministry.
Seems like most people are only concerned with his stance on sexuality and SSM
quote:Really? I can't see that the last two ABCs had much if any influence on the CofE's attitudes to same-sex marriage at all. Why should the next one?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:These are the topics, along with the OoW as bishops, where the man at the helm will have the most influence over the church he hands on to his successors, so that's probably why.
Originally posted by shamwari:
Seems like most people are only concerned with his stance on sexuality and SSM
quote:Unfortunately Elmore is no more, sad to say. What is left is a shade of a shadow living in a smallish, grace and favor, bungalow-style leased house on Salisbury Cathedral Close around the corner from the old theological college buildings. I haven't found a web site for them, but I do know that decided not to take any new vocations. Last count, there was just one superior who still calls himself "abbot," a professed brother and three or four old men. They may still have oblates.
Originally posted by Thyme:
... He (Welby) is an Oblate of the Anglican Benedictine Abbey of Elmore (I am fairly sure it is Elmore, memory might be wrong) ...
quote:Welby actually stated that position today, recorded before press cameras in a flat, no nonsense, matter of fact way. Same-sex marriage or civil partnerships or whatever are the state's business, not the church's.
Originally posted by ken:
... Really? I can't see that the last two ABCs had much if any influence on the CofE's attitudes to same-sex marriage at all. Why should the next one?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:I thought I had read, or heard, some time ago that Vicars and Bishops had to confirm their acceptance of/belief in said articles.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
He's a thoroughgoing supernaturalist. But a lot of otherwise rational Christians are.
It's that pesky incarnation thing. Gets us every time.
quote:Thank you - I hadn't realised.
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
In fairness, SusanDoris, I think that the 39 articles are not an Anglican Creed, in as much as they are seen as a document very much of its own time; a response to a social and religious millieu which no longer exists. Very few Anglicans, even Anglican priests, treat them as holy writ, and I doubt that +Justin is amongst those that do.
quote:Well, I am a realist! I hope to see in my lifetime a stronger move towards no belief in God/god/s, but that would have to occur gradually. Sweeping changes would never work and the status quo is definitely better than the worse alternative systems.
If you are looking for a non-supernaturalist, however, you are definately looking in the wrong place. Whether you view that as worrying or encourageing does, of course, depend on your perspective.
quote:Well, I suppose I have to admit, albeit rather grudgingly, that you are probably right!
Originally posted by Enoch:
Isn't that a bit like saying you were hoping the next President of the BHA would introduce starting each meeting with a short word of prayer?
I wish I was good at witty remarks so I could put one here , but I'm hopeless at that!
quote:I don't think the Archbishop of Canterbury has that much real influence on whether or not that happens.
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
... the CofE [...] could certainly make life either easier or more difficult for those faithful christians who will happen to be in same sex marriages, seeking to exercise ministry, either lay or ordained, within its bailiwick.
quote:The ususal suspects were bitching about both George and Rowan right from the first day. And in both cases they turned out to rather different from what the whingers had predicted - but tht didn't stop the moaning, all it meant was a that a whole new lot joined in.
Originally posted by Percy B:
Mind you maybe on the day of the announcement it's not on to mention reservations.
quote:Impressive. Very much, IMO, the new CO/CEO/Headmaster setting out his stall, but none the worse for that. We've had 10 years of (usually wonderful) Mary but now perhaps it is time for a bit of Martha.
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:Welby actually stated that position today, recorded before press cameras in a flat, no nonsense, matter of fact way. Same-sex marriage or civil partnerships or whatever are the state's business, not the church's.
Originally posted by ken:
... Really? I can't see that the last two ABCs had much if any influence on the CofE's attitudes to same-sex marriage at all. Why should the next one?
Justin Welby today at Lambeth. Press statement.
Bravo!
*
quote:If that is correct then why has it taken so long to agree, and why did the committee need to meet more than it usually does?
Originally posted by Amos:
Durham's not a compromise candidate--that would have been Coventry or Norwich, I imagine. It's stepping quite far outside the norm to choose someone who's been a bishop for less than a year. My source suggests that he was definitely felt to be the first choice.
quote:Works fine for me. Perhaps because it is a GIF?
Originally posted by PeteC:
Separated at birth?
Separated at birth?
A natural choice for Archbishop.
[Your 2nd link does not work - I can't fix it, DT, Purgatory Host]
quote:I give up - it must be I can see it because the Vatican has checked out my IP. Sorry.
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I "don't have permission" to access some site about saints and popes.
Plus, I get an additional 404 error for just asking.
quote:The vast majority of American Episcopalians have no idea what the churchmanship of the English archbishops is, or even that churchmanship is such an issue in England. I'd bet most of them don't know what churchmanship is.
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:It could be seen as a green light to provinces such as Nigeria and a snub to others (USA?). Of course it won't make a difference to the relationship between Nigeria and USA. (What relationship?) But both provinces are AFAIK in communion with Canterbury.
Originally posted by CJS:
Do you really think the churchmanship of those two English archbishops makes any significant difference at all to 'Anglicanism in general' nowadays?
quote:I wasn't thinking influence in the sense of making the church go his way. I was thinking more in terms of the interplay of his views and his diplomacy in steering the church through the coming years wrt this particular extinct mesohippus.
Originally posted by ken:
quote:Really? I can't see that the last two ABCs had much if any influence on the CofE's attitudes to same-sex marriage at all. Why should the next one?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:These are the topics, along with the OoW as bishops, where the man at the helm will have the most influence over the church he hands on to his successors, so that's probably why.
Originally posted by shamwari:
Seems like most people are only concerned with his stance on sexuality and SSM
They do have an impact on how and when we will start to consecrate women as bishops, just as they had an influence on how and when we started to ordain women as priests. I don't think any Archbishops could have prevented the ordination of women in England, but George Carey helped to make it happen earlier than it might otherwise have happened, and with more consideration for the anti-women party than they might have got in other circumstances.
The arguments we have on same-sex marriage and priests living with same-sex partners - or to be honest the arguments we mostly don't have, we're still largely in an era of "don't ask don't tell" and I'm not sure that's a bad thing sorry about the Dead Horse) - the arguments we have on same-sex marriage are very different in their nature from the ones we had about ordaining women and probably not susceptible to any amount of church politicking from Archbishops or anyone else.
quote:Yes, I found the similarities striking. And I might send you some chocorrit.
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A little bit of detective work suggests you see this pope as a lookalike.
He's Pope 260 in a list on the website and you were trying to link an image "pope260a"
Do I get the prize?
Justin Wellby
quote:Sorry, but what's this?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
PM this evening [/QB]
quote:One of the things that shocked me in the NZ Anglican church, confirmed by a statement by a very well known (non-shippie) anglican priest today is that kiwi anglicans tend to see the AB of C as no more than a nice bishop far away. When I prayed in a liturgy for the AB of C, for the primate, and our diocesan bishop in that order more than one parishioner was shocked, having not heard that done before.
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
As the AoC is the spiritual centre of the worldwide communion ...
Although I guess if I were I wouldn't have to pray (but I'm told the hours are long and the pay dubious).
quote:Well, it wasn't about the All Blacks, was it? Lol.
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:One of the things that shocked me in the NZ Anglican church, confirmed by a statement by a very well known (non-shippie) anglican priest today is that kiwi anglicans tend to see the AB of C as no more than a nice bishop far away. When I prayed in a liturgy for the AB of C, for the primate, and our diocesan bishop in that order more than one parishioner was shocked, having not heard that done before.
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
As the AoC is the spiritual centre of the worldwide communion ...
...
quote:Yeah - Francis should have bothered to leave his family, Luther should have stayed in his cloister and Wesley should have accepted a comfortable living somewhere. Sometimes the church does successfully lead a fight back against secular tides; remember that paedophilic gay behaviour was widely accepted in the Graeco-Roman world before the church came along. [No I'm not equating that with the present gay community, just drawing a comparison.] At some point Christians, and thus the church, have to say: 'This is the will of God'. Ultimately we'll only know who's right at the final judgement, but there's a lot to be said for the argument that the majority usually proves to be wrong.
Originally posted by shamwari:
The main challenge facing JW is not the social or sexual issue. Whatever the CofE might have to say on these issues is ultimately irrelevant. Society will go its own way and a marginalised Church will be a voice crying in the wilderness. It will have zilch impact.
quote:Agreed.
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I'm all for the church having a prophetic voice, I'd just rather it were shouting about central scriptural truths, you know, the ones Jesus actually spoke about, issues of who and what we worship, and solidarity with the outcast, the poor, and the oppressed, rather than bleating on about the supposed sins of others, "sins" which "we" would never be tempted to commit.
quote:Barnabas - you are the prize
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A little bit of detective work suggests you see this pope as a lookalike.
He's Pope 260 in a list on the website and you were trying to link an image "pope260a"
Do I get the prize?
quote:And never let US forget it.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:I've nothing at all against Justin but hasn't he had rather a protected existence - Eton, Cambridge and a scion of the Butler dynasty to boot? Please let him be who his is and not pretend he is somehow "down wiv da kids" when it comes to personal experience of social need. For all his faults, at least George Carey had been there and has never forgotten it.
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:But possibly more relevant to overseeing the Anglican Communion.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. It does seem a bit odd that so many commentators have remarked on his experience of 'the real world' as though being an executive for an oil company is so much more 'real' than the day-to-day work of a parish priest.
quote:That argument cuts
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I too heard that Nigerian Bishop's snarling attitude at the end of his contribution on Radio 4, and if that's current Christianity, then who is going to want to join it? Even if they think, well, that's Nigerian Christianity, but it's not ours, there are still huge questions about its value and position in the world.
)
quote:Is this Sheldon Cooper's Dad??
Originally posted by aumbry:
Archbishop Welby
And is this not a teeny weeny bit of an odd look?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:And I wonder whether George Carey's background, while almost certainly less comfortable in his early years, was in any real sense less narrow. On the one hand respectable working class in a very good generation to be of that class, most of his career spent in theological colleges, incumbency of a rather studenty 'shrine' (well, the evangelical equivalent) parish: on the other a bit of a toff, admittedly, but from a family with high traditions of public service (you don't really get much better than the Butlers for that, and his stepfather is a Labour life peer): then a few years doing big things in the private sector, incumbency in a 'normal' parish, then appointments in a couple of inner-cityish cathedrals. I wouldn't say there was much to choose between them, and there's a case for saying that once they'd passed their late 20s, Welby had a rather broader experience than Carey- if that matters at all.
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:...Bishop Welby sounds an excellent choice... he admitted that his most challenging role had been as a parish priest.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I've nothing at all against Justin but hasn't he had rather a protected existence - Eton, Cambridge and a scion of the Butler dynasty to boot? Please let him be who his is and not pretend he is somehow "down wiv da kids" when it comes to personal experience of social need. For all his faults, at least George Carey had been there and has never forgotten it.
quote:Justin Welby has, forgive me for repeating myself wit, urbanity and intelligence - three qualities denied to Carey.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:And I wonder whether George Carey's background, while almost certainly less comfortable in his early years, was in any real sense less narrow. On the one hand respectable working class in a very good generation to be of that class, most of his career spent in theological colleges, incumbency of a rather studenty 'shrine' (well, the evangelical equivalent) parish: on the other a bit of a toff, admittedly, but from a family with high traditions of public service (you don't really get much better than the Butlers for that, and his stepfather is a Labour life peer): then a few years doing big things in the private sector, incumbency in a 'normal' parish, then appointments in a couple of inner-cityish cathedrals. I wouldn't say there was much to choose between them, and there's a case for saying that once they'd passed their late 20s, Welby had a rather broader experience than Carey- if that matters at all.
Originally posted by sebby:
quote:...Bishop Welby sounds an excellent choice... he admitted that his most challenging role had been as a parish priest.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I've nothing at all against Justin but hasn't he had rather a protected existence - Eton, Cambridge and a scion of the Butler dynasty to boot? Please let him be who his is and not pretend he is somehow "down wiv da kids" when it comes to personal experience of social need. For all his faults, at least George Carey had been there and has never forgotten it.
[Fixed code, DT, Purgatory Host]
quote:
...But the modest setting is just about the only thing that is low-key about HTB. Since the early 1980s it has been exporting a noisy mini-reformation to the rest of the Church of England, with its rock-band style of worship, social activism and unabashed evangelical drive to make converts...
quote:You're right that it is wrong to misquote people - but even what he did say sounds a bit disingenuous to me, as with many liberal clichés.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And dragging up that misreporting of David Jenkins again - he said it was not just a bag of old bones
quote:But wait - so how do you explain the lightning bolt which set York Minster on fire?
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Mark Betts - this is a tangent, but there's a link to another reporter's take on it here - the full transcript is in his biography The Calling of a Cuckoo which is far more orthodox in his declarations of faith than these misquotes make him sound.
quote:I totally agree, we must avoid making traditionalists second class Anglicans
Originally posted by +Chrism:
The main issue I have with this appointment is "Where does this leave "Trad Catholic clergy" in terms of future senior appointments.
With the possibility of women bishops could this mean that a "traditionalist" will never be ++Cantuar in future. If this is the case will they guarantee that ++Ebor is a traditionalist who does not ordain women - This will solve the issue of swearing Canonical Obedience to a female bishops.
I am also concerned that "Traditionalists" will become second-class Anglicans who will be overlooked when it comes to Suffragan and Diocesan appointments.
I came across the Twitter page of Revd Sally Hitchiner where she said "So WHO will be the new Bishop of Durham? Lucy Winket? Rachel Treweek? June Osborne? Fingers crossed it's a girlie!".
As previously mentioned "those who want to be Bishops shouldn't". No female clergy has openly said they want to be a Bishop, so how do we know that they want to be Bishops.
I pray and hope that the CofE don't make Traditionalists and Conservative Evo's second-class Anglicans and that they are treated fairly for Senior Appointments
quote:I'm not sure what the answer is but female Anglicans have been and in many dioceses still are treated as second-class Anglicans overlooked for any position of leadership in the church.
Originally posted by +Chrism:
The main issue I have with this appointment is "Where does this leave "Trad Catholic clergy" in terms of future senior appointments.
With the possibility of women bishops could this mean that a "traditionalist" will never be ++Cantuar in future. If this is the case will they guarantee that ++Ebor is a traditionalist who does not ordain women - This will solve the issue of swearing Canonical Obedience to a female bishops.
I am also concerned that "Traditionalists" will become second-class Anglicans who will be overlooked when it comes to Suffragan and Diocesan appointments.
I came across the Twitter page of Revd Sally Hitchiner where she said "So WHO will be the new Bishop of Durham? Lucy Winket? Rachel Treweek? June Osborne? Fingers crossed it's a girlie!".
As previously mentioned "those who want to be Bishops shouldn't". No female clergy has openly said they want to be a Bishop, so how do we know that they want to be Bishops.
I pray and hope that the CofE don't make Traditionalists and Conservative Evo's second-class Anglicans and that they are treated fairly for Senior Appointments
quote:Up to a point Lord Copper.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Other churches are available', as the BBC might say when it mentions a brand name.
In these days of choice and, if we are truly serious about ecumenism, I can't see the problem either with a church believing stuff that excludes some, or with a church that teaches stuff that others are not comfortable with.
Go to a church that suits you and your stage in the journey.
You like women in leadership? There are places that do it.
Don't like women in leadership - equally available on the High Street.
Want a church that welcomes gay partners? There's one just for you
Want a church where they teach strict conservative family values? There are many.
The problem is when you try to insist that every church must do it your way.
it's like going into a fruit shop and complaining when they tell you they can't sell you a spanner (US: wrench)
Go where you are comfortable.
Simples.
....can I be Archbishop now?
quote:A forth position could be that we don't actually know whether God wants women to be Bishops, but we do know that he wants men in these roles - for example Jesus' 12 male disciples. Therefore, until we are sure, let's keep the status quo, lest we err.
Originally posted by Enoch:
On women bishops, to pluck a random example out of the air, there are a number of possible positions. These include:-
1. God wants women to be bishops and those who don't work for this are obstructing his will;
2. God regards women bishops as an impossibility, and detests all those that advocate them;
3. God is not actually all that bothered either way.
quote:Perhaps we'd better also assume that we know God wants Jewish men in the role, for example, Jesus' 12 male disciples so we'd better only appoint those who are Jewish.
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:A forth position could be that we don't actually know whether God wants women to be Bishops, but we do know that he wants men in these roles - for example Jesus' 12 male disciples. Therefore, until we are sure, let's keep the status quo, lest we err.
Originally posted by Enoch:
On women bishops, to pluck a random example out of the air, there are a number of possible positions. These include:-
1. God wants women to be bishops and those who don't work for this are obstructing his will;
2. God regards women bishops as an impossibility, and detests all those that advocate them;
3. God is not actually all that bothered either way.
quote:If his background does include Portal and so on then it sounds like establishment, but Cambridge technocrat Fabian managerial establishment rather than Oxford classics Tory paternalistic establishment. In fictional terms more CP Snow than Evelyn Waugh.
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:But he's Eton/Cambridge, which is likely to make him less right wing than the stereotypical 'Old-Etonian' Eton/Oxford lot.
Originally posted by BroJames:
and he is certainly not a stereotypical 'Old-Etonian'.
quote:Can't we stop this pompous digging at George Carey for a bit? Its getting old.
Originally posted by sebby:
Bishop Welby sounds an excellent choice. Witty, urbane, and intelligent (three qualities denied to George Carey), he admitted that his most challenging role had been as a parish priest.
quote:I am a traditional Anglican Catholic. I enjoy the Catholic traditions of the Church. I recognise the Catholic tradition that those whom our bishops ordain are ordained.
Originally posted by AngloCatholicDude:
quote:I totally agree, we must avoid making traditionalists second class Anglicans
Originally posted by +Chrism:
The main issue I have with this appointment is "Where does this leave "Trad Catholic clergy" in terms of future senior appointments.
With the possibility of women bishops could this mean that a "traditionalist" will never be ++Cantuar in future. If this is the case will they guarantee that ++Ebor is a traditionalist who does not ordain women - This will solve the issue of swearing Canonical Obedience to a female bishops.
I am also concerned that "Traditionalists" will become second-class Anglicans who will be overlooked when it comes to Suffragan and Diocesan appointments.
I came across the Twitter page of Revd Sally Hitchiner where she said "So WHO will be the new Bishop of Durham? Lucy Winket? Rachel Treweek? June Osborne? Fingers crossed it's a girlie!".
As previously mentioned "those who want to be Bishops shouldn't". No female clergy has openly said they want to be a Bishop, so how do we know that they want to be Bishops.
I pray and hope that the CofE don't make Traditionalists and Conservative Evo's second-class Anglicans and that they are treated fairly for Senior Appointments
quote:What's your evidence that that the conservatives on the gay and women priests issue are a 'small' minority? The OoW got a two thirds majority - implying opposition by one third. However on the gay issue, on the occasions when General Synod has voted, it has overwhelmingly supported the conservative position, so not a 'small minority' but a large majority.
Originally posted by Percy B:
He will not have an easy task as the small minorities in the church who are anti women priests, or anti gay... speak so loudly. They get attention out of proportion to their numbers, and keeping that in mind can be very difficult.
quote:Portal is his mother's family name. She is the niece of Charles Portal, 1st Viscount Portal of Hungerford. Justin Welby's parents divorced, and his mother later married Charles Williams, who was ennobled in 1985, making her Baroness Williams of Elvel.
Originally posted by ken:
Does anyone know if he is related to Lord Portal? I sort of assume he must be, because of his name, but I don't know at all.
quote:Could you explain this please? Stephen Cottrell is now my bishop so I'm intrigued to know.
Originally posted by +Chrism:
+Stephen Cottrell (Even though he sold out to his own inheritance)
) that I ought to be going along to church with people who are wrong* because it's the right thing to do. We ought to be able to get along together, and to worship together. quote:For the sake of accuracy, I must point out that Salisbury Priory has two storeys, and that AFAIK the community has not styled its superior "Abbot" since Basil Matthews departed these shores. Dom Simon has remained Prior Simon. The Oblate body is alive and well, with nearly three hundred members.
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Unfortunately Elmore is no more, sad to say. What is left is a shade of a shadow living in a smallish, grace and favor, bungalow-style leased house on Salisbury Cathedral Close around the corner from the old theological college buildings. I haven't found a web site for them, but I do know that decided not to take any new vocations. Last count, there was just one superior who still calls himself "abbot," a professed brother and three or four old men. They may still have oblates.
quote:I completely agree!
Originally posted by Spike:
The votes on General Synod aren't really representative though, because it's only Ecclesiastical anoraks who care about such things who stand for election. The average worshippers in the pews really don't give a monkey's one way or the other.
quote:Stephen is a catholic charismatic. He also has a concern for evangelism, as we all should. His book 'Catholic evangelism' is rooted in the catholic tradition.
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Congratulation to +Justin Durham on his quick elevation. +Stephen Cottrell (Even though he sold out to his own inheritance) and +Richard Chartres would have been my choice.
Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical
quote:Sorry to quibble, but don't you mean evangelistic?
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical
quote:I'm tempted to ask for an expansion on your statement except it feels too much like DH territory.
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Another point to keep in mind is that to be "anti-gay marriage" does not mean you are "anti-gay."
quote:Yup - that in a nut shell is a statement of Erastianism gone wrong; the idea that those who have no meaningful allegiance to the institutional church should get to decide what the beliefs of the Church should be.
Originally posted by Percy B:
The fact remains most people in England are in favour of women priests in the Church of England. Most people in England are no anti gay. The C of E claims to be for everyone in England so maybe the voices of the people should predominate
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
quote:The new Archbishop has indeed got his work cut out for him but only because of the 'shrill' voices that he will encounter in his intended role as a listener.
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:I'm tempted to ask for an expansion on your statement except it feels too much like DH territory.
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Another point to keep in mind is that to be "anti-gay marriage" does not mean you are "anti-gay."
quote:Fr Stephen Cottrell SSC (As he was then) vowed against the ordination of women, he was prominently against it but within 48 hours of the vote being passed he was now in favour of the OoW.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:Stephen is a catholic charismatic. He also has a concern for evangelism, as we all should. His book 'Catholic evangelism' is rooted in the catholic tradition.
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Congratulation to +Justin Durham on his quick elevation. +Stephen Cottrell (Even though he sold out to his own inheritance) and +Richard Chartres would have been my choice.
Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical
So how has he 'sold out to his own inheritance'? And if that (whatever it is) is 'selling out' then what is your plan for re-evangelisation of England?
quote:Is this not defamation? You accuse [Edited to remove repetition of accusation]. I don't think that's a proper thing to do on the Ship.
Originally posted by AngloCatholicDude:
Bishop Stephen Cottrell is a wonderful man but he has got to where he is today because [edited for libel risk]
quote:It ought to be self-explanatory.
Originally posted by Jonathan Strange:
quote:I'm tempted to ask for an expansion on your statement except it feels too much like DH territory.
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Another point to keep in mind is that to be "anti-gay marriage" does not mean you are "anti-gay."
quote:How the Church of England is funded and No not from Taxes, also it appears the Archbishops Council (national administrations) is about 1% of income and maybe falling.
Originally posted by Quinquireme:
Sorry to bring in a point not entirely relevant, but an atheist friend of mine recently ranted on Facebook, asking "How much does the ABC cost?"" Can anyone answer this, and does it Come Out of Our Taxes???
quote:Ah, thank you, Qoheleth. I saw Dom Simon wearing a pectoral cross and assumed he had taken the title of abbot. Also, I only saw photos of their house from above and of their back garden which did not include every angle. The house is, however, in the style of a modern, purpose built family home.
Originally posted by Qoheleth:
quote:For the sake of accuracy, I must point out that Salisbury Priory has two storeys, and that AFAIK the community has not styled its superior "Abbot" since Basil Matthews departed these shores. Dom Simon has remained Prior Simon. The Oblate body is alive and well, with nearly three hundred members.
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Unfortunately Elmore is no more, sad to say. What is left is a shade of a shadow living in a smallish, grace and favor, bungalow-style leased house on Salisbury Cathedral Close around the corner from the old theological college buildings. I haven't found a web site for them, but I do know that decided not to take any new vocations. Last count, there was just one superior who still calls himself "abbot," a professed brother and three or four old men. They may still have oblates.
quote:If a monastery is down to a handful of members, all of whom are pensioners, it is not really fair on novices to be faced with the prospect of the oldies departing quite soon, leaving them exposed and in charge. It therefore makes more sense to encourage such candidates for the religious life to look elsewhere, especially as there is such a shortage of candidates. Personally it surprises me that such institutions don't unite with others, but perhaps it's felt that the burden of the extra pensioners isn't really fair on the more dynamic community, as well as being disruptive to the life of the receiving community. But overall surely it's tidier to make the decision to close down than let a lingering half life persist indefinitely.
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I certainly don't understand why any monastery would give up on continuance by adopting a deliberate policy of closing its doors to new members. I was amazed to see that same thing happen with two other well known cases in England, and quite recently, another in the USA.
*
quote:Actually, looking back, over time there has been development of a great many people in thinking and the acceptance of the idea of women in Holy Orders. Without hard evidence for the claim except other then my nearly sixty years of Anglican church experience, for what that's worth, I can say that about development of views about women in Holy Orders.
Originally posted by Percy B:
... There were those who opposed women priests and then changed.
I love the new avatar Doublethink
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
quote:
Mudfrog's strawman ranges from:
'shrill' voices
quote:A thrust with no permitted parry.
all the way to:
narrow-minded, bigoted, unreasonable and a total barrier to productive discussion.
quote:Given the immense human suffering in many nations caused by immoral predatory practices by financiers, it would be nice if you were wrong about the latter.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Indeed. What any ABC says about homosexuality will affect some people's lives. What he says about bankers will affect nothing.
quote:You can always take it to hell.
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Mudfrog's strawman ranges from:
'shrill' voicesquote:A thrust with no permitted parry.
all the way to:
narrow-minded, bigoted, unreasonable and a total barrier to productive discussion.
quote:Why is what I wrote 'a strawman'?
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Mudfrog's strawman ranges from:
'shrill' voicesquote:A thrust with no permitted parry.
all the way to:
narrow-minded, bigoted, unreasonable and a total barrier to productive discussion.
quote:I don't really understand what this has to do with the Archbish designate. But still, the issues are whether any religious body (state church or otherwise) should hold the moral authority to prevent other people from doing something that is legal and state sanctioned.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems to me that anyone from any interest group could be described as that if, in defending their sincerely held position they refuse to allow the opposite side to speak and refuse indeed to allow the other side to hold an opposing opinion without it being labelled as offensive.
quote:It's has to do with him because he is going to have to talk to both sides and he has said that he wants to listen to the LGBT community. What I am saying is that maybe they need to listen too and not attack him - or anyone - for that matter with inflammatory accusations of 'Homophobe!' should he restate his well-known position against SSM - which is not yet enshrined in law and, according to the government such a law would permit churches to opt out of conducting such ceremonies.
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:I don't really understand what this has to do with the Archbish designate.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems to me that anyone from any interest group could be described as that if, in defending their sincerely held position they refuse to allow the opposite side to speak and refuse indeed to allow the other side to hold an opposing opinion without it being labelled as offensive.
quote:I think Bishop Welby has just stated that he abides by the agreed policy of the bishops. I don't think he has stated a personal opinion.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
for that matter with inflammatory accusations of 'Homophobe!' should he restate his well-known position against SSM - which is not yet enshrined in law and, according to the government such a law would permit churches to opt out of conducting such ceremonies.
When that happens, and when ++Justin confirms that status quo, I hope the LGBT community will accept it as being a sincerely held and reasoned position within the Anglican Church here in the UK.
quote:The logic of the traditional Christian position on this is, of course, that given that marriage was invented by God as the union of a man and a woman, it's not for the state to redefine what God has defined. At some point Christians have to affirm the validity of the statement
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Of course, the difficulty is that some within the Anglican church are trying to prevent the state from using the word 'marriage' for gay marriages. And as long as that continues, religious bodies are not really in a great position with regard to talking reasonably to the constituency of homosexuals within their own church.
A position that 'we will abide by the law and recognise all legally conducted marriages even if that includes relationships we would not ourselves conduct' might well be a reasonable argument. But that is a hard position to take when there is massive internal conversation about the issue and a number of high profile speakers who are saying 'gay marriage cannot be called marriage because we're the church and we don't agree with it'.
In my view, even if it (or any other group) takes a line on gay marriage, they're in no position to argue that the state should not extend the relationship to anyone simply on the basis that they (the churches) somehow own the copyright on the term.
quote:Rom 9:20,21
'who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay?
quote:Is this the same logic that allows polygamy, sibling marriage, cousin marriage, and marriage at 12?
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The logic of the traditional Christian position on this is, of course, that given that marriage was invented by God as the union of a man and a woman, it's not for the state to redefine what God has defined.
quote:This is a broken record. The British soon discovered that they did not have a monopoly on marriage when the Indian women rebelled against the idea that they were somehow not married because they'd not been 'done' by a Christian rite.
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The logic of the traditional Christian position on this is, of course, that given that marriage was invented by God as the union of a man and a woman, it's not for the state to redefine what God has defined. At some point Christians have to affirm the validity of the statementquote:Rom 9:20,21
'who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay?
Now of course the world doesn't believe this - so it's no surprise that it wants to go another way. But to rule out the right of the church to claim to know the will of God on this matter, is illegitimate.
quote:Not really true for a start - ever heard of jumping the broom?
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... and given that until the nineteenth century ALL marriages were religious and conducted in accordance to church teaching, the idea that the relatively new definition and provision of civil marriage should now insist on changing what has always been - with justification - the marriage of one man and one woman for life - seems rather impertinent.
quote:Unlike the Church of England, the executive of the country is a representative democracy. And thus it certainly can change the definition of marriage without permission of the church. I agree that a change would likely upset the odd balance between church-and-state within the country, but the Anglican church holds no trump card on this, or any other, issue.
And the establishment can not change the definiton of marriage without permission from the church because the Church of England is part of the establishment. it has a seat and a voice and a right to be heard and listened to.
quote:Er... the union of a man and an aardvark, surely? Gen 2:18-19.
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
The logic of the traditional Christian position on this is, of course, that given that marriage was invented by God as the union of a man and a woman
quote:Indeed - the British deserved to be reminded that marriage is a creation ordinance, which can be entered into by any means that the society wishes to recognise as appropriate. But the core concept of a permanent relationship between a man and woman - that's the will of the Creator, for whom the church speaks.
Originally posted by the long ranger:
This is a broken record. The British soon discovered that they did not have a monopoly on marriage when the Indian women rebelled against the idea that they were somehow not married because they'd not been 'done' by a Christian rite.
quote:If I see a person about to do something really stupid - like give a £1,000,000 to someone I believe to be a fraudster to 'invest' - I have a duty to tell the person what I know. If that person then carries on and does what they've been warned about, they've got no comeback on me. IMNSHO that's the role of the church in the debate about SSM; we believe that SSM is inherently flawed, and have a duty as a watchman. Or are we to show no love to people insisting on giving the £1,000,000 to the person who, in our belief, is a fraudsters by suggesting they might be wrong?
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I don't accept your 'traditional' interpretation. Even if I did, I wouldn't expect you to do anything other than respect the choices of people who believe different things to you.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
; that reply really IS a broken record. ]
quote:That is such as stupid and irrelevant example that I'm not even going to respond.
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
If I see a person about to do something really stupid - like give a £1,000,000 to someone I believe to be a fraudster to 'invest' - I have a duty to tell the person what I know. If that person then carries on and does what they've been warned about, they've got no comeback on me. IMNSHO that's the role of the church in the debate about SSM; we believe that SSM is inherently flawed, and have a duty as a watchman. Or are we to show no love to people insisting on giving the £1,000,000 to the person who, in our belief, is a fraudsters by suggesting they might be wrong?
quote:Yes, that is your right in a liberal democracy. As it is my right to warn you of the consequences IMO, and to label the state's behaviour as illegitimate before God. But yes, after that, we have to agree to disagree; however it would be good if you expressed yourself nicely rather than resort to the language of the gutter and didn't thereby try to deny my right to express my opinion on the matter. A necessary condition true democracy is that we allow all sides the freedom to put their views into the public domain without shouting them down...
Originally posted by the long ranger:
I detest the National Lottery... What I do not believe is that I have any right to insist that the lottery is illegal simply because of my moral qualms. I recognise that people do stupid things and that the state legislates for people doing things I detest. It is legal, it is just stupid and immoral.
You don't have to like gay marriage. But you've clearly lost the moral argument and are resorting to dodgy history and biblical analysis to attempt to control what other people do. Make the moral argument if you feel you must, but stop trying to insist that you have a trump card which prevents other people from acting on their conscience.
Otherwise we're just back to burning heretics at Smithfield because we don't much like their theology. I don't much care what you decide in your church. I'm fairly comfortable with you deciding there is something about me that you detest. But I will fight to the death your insistence that you have a legal right to tell me what to do, what to call myself and whether the state should recognise my relationship. To that I simply say 'fuck off and mind your own business'.
quote:I'm sorry, you were saying that people should not be able to call their relationships 'marriage', hence it was you, not I, who was attempting to stifle civil debate by claiming that others could not use a word you hold as holy.
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Yes, that is your right in a liberal democracy. As it is my right to warn you of the consequences IMO, and to label the state's behaviour as illegitimate before God. But yes, after that, we have to agree to disagree; however it would be good if you expressed yourself nicely rather than resort to the language of the gutter and didn't thereby try to deny my right to express my opinion on the matter. A necessary condition true democracy is that we allow all sides the freedom to put their views into the public domain without shouting them down...
quote:What? You're seriously telling me that the universally accepted idea that marriage is between a man and a woman is 'morally bankrupt' - and as morally bankrupt at the National Lottery, as you have also said??
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Indeed, it is rather impertinent for any religious group to think that they can continue to exercise morally bankrupt ideas and enforce them onto the population at large.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'Other churches are available', as the BBC might say when it mentions a brand name.
In these days of choice and, if we are truly serious about ecumenism, I can't see the problem either with a church believing stuff that excludes some, or with a church that teaches stuff that others are not compofrtable with.
Go to a church that suits you and your stage in the journey.
You like women in leadership? There are places that do it.
Don't like women in leadership - equally available on the High Street.
Want a church that welcomes gay partners? There's one just for you
Want a church where they teach strict conservative family values? There are many.
The problem is when you try to insist that every church must do it your way.
it's like going into a fruit shop and complaining when they tell you they can't sell you a spanner (US: wrench)
Go where you are comfortable.
Simples.
....can I be Archbishop now?
quote:You need to go away and look up 'universal' in the dictionary. If there are people with different opinions about it, then it cannot then be a 'universally accepted idea'. Indeed, the very fact that some want to use the word for gay relationships shows that clearly your exclusive use for heterosexual relationships is not a universally held view.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What? You're seriously telling me that the universally accepted idea that marriage is between a man and a woman is 'morally bankrupt' - and as morally bankrupt at the National Lottery, as you have also said??
Your view is foolish - and is not worth discussing.
quote:No, what is morally bankrupt is the idea that some people who used a certain word in a certain context can have a trump card on any wider civil use of the concept outwith of their church. The idea that the term and concept that marriage should be reserved for heterosexual relationships is morally bankrupt.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
IMHO the attitude exhibited by thelongranger is precisely the ridiculous argument that ++Justin will have to cope with.
He will have to discuss the issue of gay marriage with people who believe that marriage per se is 'morally bankrupt'. How he will do that without giving in to despair and throwing his hands up at the pointlessness of even discussing it, I do not know. But then I'm not the AB of C.
quote:Ah yes. The tone argument. "I'm trying to deny you fundamental rights and make sure your families have as little protection in law as possible and you're using mean words to describe my attempt to deny families their right to exist. Help, help. I'm being oppressed!"
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
But yes, after that, we have to agree to disagree; however it would be good if you expressed yourself nicely rather than resort to the language of the gutter and didn't thereby try to deny my right to express my opinion on the matter. A necessary condition true democracy is that we allow all sides the freedom to put their views into the public domain without shouting them down...
quote:How about divorced people? Are they married? Or people who marry their first cousins? Or white men who marry black women?
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I will never call a gay couple married, even if the law allows for it.
The government is WRONG.
quote:The law changes. See slavery.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
In the UK the universally accepted view - legally as much as anything - is that marriage is the union of one man and one woman for life. There is nowhere in this country where you can stand on, use or live under any other definition.
quote:Well that depends on whether you want to live in a democracy. In my view, if a minority wants a right which is accorded to another group, there is a compelling reason for the state to offer it, even if there are other groups who are offended. Whether you or others consider it to be Holy Matrimony is your religious problem.
You, and your minoriy of like-minded people, wanting to believe that marriage means anything else doesn't make it so.
quote:I don't think there is any evidence that your view is a majority view. You are entitled to it, but you are also only left to fume when the law is changed, as it will be.
If the government changes the law, they will do so against the wishes of the majority. I fundamentally disagree with SSM and will continue to believe that it is only valid for male and female.
quote:Again, nobody really cares if you like it or not. Nor should they.
I will never call a gay couple married, even if the law allows for it.
The government is WRONG.
quote:I don't think you are actually reading what I'm writing.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Your problem, of course, is that the government and the opposition have ruined your plans.
Even if SSM was made legal, there is provision for the church to refuse to accept it and to refuse to perform the ceremonies.
quote:21 March, accordng to the news the other day. I don't know about content - I don't even know who decides about that.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Perhaps we can get away from this little digression and back to the important stuff - liturgy.
Do we know when the enthronement will be and what can we expect at it, beyond the obvious 'Justin Welby in a big chair moment'?
quote:Hmm, anniversary of the martydom of Thomas Cranmer, how very... something.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:21 March, accordng to the news the other day.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Do we know when the enthronement will be and what can we expect at it, beyond the obvious 'Justin Welby in a big chair moment'?
quote:This. Novices usually discern a vocation to the religious life, not geriatric nursing. For the lingering half-life, I refer you to SSJE (UK branch). But I suggest we cease cluttering up +Justin's thread.
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
quote:If a monastery is down to a handful of members, all of whom are pensioners, it is not really fair on novices to be faced with the prospect of the oldies departing quite soon, leaving them exposed and in charge. It therefore makes more sense to encourage such candidates for the religious life to look elsewhere, especially as there is such a shortage of candidates. Personally it surprises me that such institutions don't unite with others, but perhaps it's felt that the burden of the extra pensioners isn't really fair on the more dynamic community, as well as being disruptive to the life of the receiving community. But overall surely it's tidier to make the decision to close down than let a lingering half life persist indefinitely.
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I certainly don't understand why any monastery would give up on continuance by adopting a deliberate policy of closing its doors to new members. I was amazed to see that same thing happen with two other well known cases in England, and quite recently, another in the USA.
*
quote:You are right. You shouldn't quibble. There is a range of messy overlapping meanings for the words evangel, evangelic, evangelical, evangelist, evangelistic, evangelistical.
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
quote:Sorry to quibble, but don't you mean evangelistic?
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Stephen Cottrell is Catholic but very evangelical
quote:Yes, that is interesting.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:Hmm, anniversary of the martydom of Thomas Cranmer, how very... something.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:21 March, accordng to the news the other day.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
Do we know when the enthronement will be and what can we expect at it, beyond the obvious 'Justin Welby in a big chair moment'?
quote:
Weaving all this together, we have a very odd figure indeed in "His Grace" Archbishop Cranmer. His character is of someone who displays an unusual obsession with homosexuality. He will seemingly do anything he can to stop us getting full civil rights, but is happy enough to share a stage with us in real life, if he gets to do a song in the musical.
If Damian Thompson of the Telegraph is correct (and there is no reason to suspect he is not), the real life Cranmer is Adrian Hilton. Hilton is a part-time Daily Mail blogger. He is not just anti-gay; he believes that the EU is "antisemitic" and the Queen has been reduced to vassal status under the terms of the Maastricht Treaty. He apparently thinks this is part of a Papish process of undoing the Reformation and extending Vatican sovereignty over Britain. He believes that a Catholic on the throne would destroy our civil liberties. His dream law is anything to limit abortion. For him, Enoch Powell is a misunderstood "hero".
What a curious character to be the darling of the Christian blogosphere (including for many Catholics), to be ranked a "Top 10 Conservative Blogger", and for the future Archbishop of Canterbury to choose to follow on Twitter.
quote:Of course, as evidenced by my own list of Followed. The serendipity of the date struck me though, and I would have thought that the ABC would have staff to look after that sort of thing.
Originally posted by the long ranger:
All kinds of things are unnecessarily read into the people one chooses to follow on twitter.
In this case it could simply be 'know your enemy'.
quote:I would hope a polite version of "Mind your own business."
Originally posted by daronmedway:
It seems that Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk has written a letter to ABCD Justin Welby. I wonder what ++ Justin's reply will look like?
quote:I have to admit that it reads like a menacing email, or a stroppy SoF post, that he just banged off without much thought.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:I would hope a polite version of "Mind your own business."
Originally posted by daronmedway:
It seems that Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk has written a letter to ABCD Justin Welby. I wonder what ++ Justin's reply will look like?
quote:Good - but if one day you do happen to just wake up and find you've become Justin Welby, don't forget Christmas is 13 days later in Russia than in the west - they still use the Julian calender for holy days.
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
If I were Justin Welby, I wouldn't cross Metropolitan Hilarion off my Christmas card list just yet.
quote:Dead right.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think he's saying "you've moved further away from us with this ordaining women and teh gays so I think you should stop it and be more like us."
I could write a letter to him and the pope and tell them they're moving away from the rest of Christendom by their refusal to move on the OoW, but I expect they'd tell me to fuck off. There are a number of things that as an Anglican I care more about than whether Moscow thinks we're a million miles away from them ore merely a few hundred thousand.
quote:I commend to you all the Special Theory of Relativity, and the inapplicability of using an observation from one frame of reference to what another observer sees from a second frame of reference.
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:Dead right.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I think he's saying "you've moved further away from us with this ordaining women and teh gays so I think you should stop it and be more like us."
I could write a letter to him and the pope and tell them they're moving away from the rest of Christendom by their refusal to move on the OoW, but I expect they'd tell me to fuck off. There are a number of things that as an Anglican I care more about than whether Moscow thinks we're a million miles away from them ore merely a few hundred thousand.
quote:Exactly!!
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I commend to you all the Special Theory of Relativity, and the inapplicability of using an observation from one frame of reference to what another observer sees from a second frame of reference.
We no longer have a single frame of reference.
