quote:

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Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Guitars

---

Yep. And drums--and shitty music played shittily in general.

K.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
And organs.

Thing is, the answers to this question are as variable as the people who are put off church by something.

For my part, I feel compelled, once again, to revisit a letter to Viz' Letterbocks:

"I saw a sign outside a church saying 'Church - it may surprise you!'. They were right - I went along and it was far more tedious than I'd imagined."

Been there, several t-shirts.
 

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Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:
This struck a chord with what I've heard. For example, yesterday I was at a meeting of a neighborhood organization when the subject came up concerning our using various local churches to host events. The consensus was that it was the churches' board members (not clergy) who were frequently so difficult to work with. Some are downright nasty.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Church just doesn't engage people today. I'm not sure that there are specific attributes, which determine this, but more an overall feeling about it.

I suppose it often seems stuffy, up its own bottom, out of touch, preachy, pompous, tedious, and so on.

I know that it can also be inspiring and beautiful as well. I think it will survive because of this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
3. First, you have to get them to care. They don't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
In a British context - since obviously the US is very different - I doubt if it will be changed. As I said, I think church will not disappear, but I think many people will find different ways of expressing their spiritual connections. I have many friends who have a spiritual/religious sensibility, some of them a very deep one, but for most of them, the idea of church would fill them with deep horror, that is, tedium.

---

quote:

---

Perhaps a really radical reshaping of church might have some effect, but then it would no longer be church, would it?

---

quote:

---

For example, I go to a regular meditation group, which is devotional in its own strange way, and where people of different faiths can join in. I like it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
I've said this in the past on similar threads but for what it's worth...while I'd been edging towards unbelief for a while it was politics that first made me decide to leave the church after roughly 30 years of worship.

The two big issues of church contention being homosexuality and woman priests just seemed so ludicrously NOT A PRIORITY compared to other serious issues in the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have many friends who have a spiritual/religious sensibility, some of them a very deep one, but for most of them, the idea of church would fill them with deep horror, that is, tedium.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Mrs KLB and I are considering throwing in our lot completely (save the odd thing) with a FE group that some people would barely consider church at all, but which for us at any rate fits my previous paragraph.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
The two big issues of church contention being homosexuality and woman priests just seemed so ludicrously NOT A PRIORITY compared to other serious issues in the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet:
--on the trivial, may I always be spared country gospel music and its terrible evils like Shine Jesus Shine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
I still sing in a church choir... The commitment is big anyway but then, on top of that, there is an extra practice or an extra choral service or a concert on the last Saturday before Christmas ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
[QUOTE]If this was really the problem, then undoubtedly you could have found a church that already agreed with your preferences in these matters. That you didn't bother to hunt for one, or that you wouldn't travel "that far" to one, or that you couldn't hold on to your faith until you found a workable solution, that is the real problem.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Porridge:

4. "Favorite" parishioners steering the church's efforts in everything -- worship styles to congregational policies

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I don't think people are 'put off' by church. They've just never considered it.

Turn the question round - how would you reply, if you are a churchgoer, to someone who comes up and says to you, 'What puts you off from becoming a freemason/joining our amateur dramatic group/neighborhood watch?'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I don't think people are 'put off' by church. They've just never considered it.

Turn the question round - how would you reply, if you are a churchgoer, to someone who comes up and says to you, 'What puts you off from becoming a freemason/joining our amateur dramatic group/neighborhood watch?'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
I think it is clear that there must be some non evangelical churches in urban areas which are really losing the numbers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Squirrel:
Just to clarify, I'm not interested in discussing things like the (alleged) increasing secularization of society, Dawkins, etc, here. I'm asking what so many churches seem to be doing that keeps people away from them.

Recently I read an article in The Lutheran (available only to subscribers, so I can't post a link) in which a Texas pastor said that the biggest reason for non-church attendance is the people in the churches. He goes on to list many un-Christian behaviors that, many unchurched folks tell him, keep people away. "Church" people, it seemed, were not behaving in a very Christian manner, and visitors picked that up.

This struck a chord with what I've heard. For example, yesterday I was at a meeting of a neighborhood organization when the subject came up concerning our using various local churches to host events. The consensus was that it was the churches' board members (not clergy) who were frequently so difficult to work with. Some are downright nasty.

At this point one woman, who directs a large social service agency in the area, remarked about how this was one reason why "organized religion" was going down the toilet. Everyone (except yours-truly) agreed.

So, what do you think? What, if anything, are the churches doing that so turns people off?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Clemency:
As an oft-times lurker and very occasional poster I feel led to make a shocking admission..
after many years of being in a variety of generally evangelical/charismatic, housechurchy congregations we have ended up in a traditional Anglican village church, most things straight-from-the-book, very trad, 'shine Jesus shine' only once in a blue moon... middle-class people, mostly retireds, sort of place I never thought I would end up....
and the shocking admission is
(I can't help this...)

I really like it.
The people are great
We feel thoroughly accepted and cared for

maybe it's senile dementia - maybe the great lie of the COMFORT ZONE has swallowed me whole. something must be dreadfully wrong - but there. I've said it! (phew, relieved)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stejjie:
I also wonder if there's an amount of projection going on as well - us projecting onto others the things we don't like about church?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Almost everyone I know says church is boring. The exceptions are primarily a few Shipmates, clergy, and some friends whose social life is centered on church social activities.

My clergy friends say they enjoy church. I point out they get to DO stuff, we have to just sit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
...Brass bands. Men and women dressed up in militaristic uniforms. Teetotalism....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
...Brass bands. Men and women dressed up in militaristic uniforms. Teetotalism....

---

You are not necessarily wrong there - certainly regarding uniforms and teetotalism, but they are a feature of membership, not attendance; and we have an awful lt of people who worship with us and are faithful to the Army and Christ who neither wear uniform nor abstain from alcohol.

---

quote:

---

Originally Posted by deano:
I think we need to start out by making the point about science and religion being compatible. As far as I’m concerned, that is the deal-breaker for most people. I am convinced that most people automatically assume that a belief in Christianity is akin to believing in a young Earth and Creationism, and therefore they reject the faith, and don’t come to Church. My evidence is purely anecdotal, but it seems to be a mainstream view expressed on most TV programmes, by many social commentators, entertainers, comedians and the like.

---

I think in some circles, this has been said over and over and over again in all kinds of ways.

Trouble is that people who say "science and religion are compatible" say it generally as an assertion, not as a proof. I'm a Christian who doesn't generally feel threatened by science. But I have yet to see a convincing or convicting argument or way of thinking that can illustrate how they can be compatible without sacrificing one on the figurative altar of the other. I think for myself, if I cut really hard, it gets to a point where you're a scientifically literate person who chooses to go to church and "wrestle" with theological issues, intellectually. For most scientifically minded people, the church isn't opposed to science or incompatible with science, it's simply irrelevant because the truth claims that the church has a history of standing for are at the most not verifiable and highly unlikely.

I show up largely in part because of the fact that I'm already invested in the church and have a strong emotional affection for the place. I also see a lot of good in the place externally. But ask me to say how it's possible for someone who hasn't already had that (often precognitive) formation?

I really don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either. And merely asserting "science a religion are compatible" doesn't solve the problem.

People come to church these days, generally, for idiosyncratic reasons. Any attempt to make a general appeal for churchgoing will fall flat because a lot of these reasons are conflicting. The church is too social, it's too reserved, it's too doctrinaire, it's too loosey-goosey, it asks too much of its members, doesn't ask enough, too many noisy kids, not family-friendly, too big, too small, too rich, too poor, too noisy, too dull, too contemporary, too traditional...I could go on and on, and each one of these would be true of a particular church. And so in a sense they're true of the Church as a whole.

[ 17. December 2012, 17:02: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
Here's my list of turn-offs:

- Having to get chummy with other people (ie "the peace")

- Having to sit close to other people

- other people in general

- modern church "music"

- Lowbrow sermons

- pompous priests

- the holier-than-thou trad-cath family in the pew in front of me (I'm sure they're Opus Dei )

- the six-foot-ten giant in the pew in front of me

- the unruly children in the pew behind me

-altarboys and -girls wearing trainers

- too much incense

- no incense at all

- grrrrrrrrr


 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Bullfrog

I think there is plenty of discussion about religion and science going on, not just based on assertion.

An interesting way to begin is to consider that science is not philosophical, but practical. Its naturalism is a method, not a world-view.

Of course, others disagree!

Anyway, not wishing to detour the thread, but there is plenty of stuff about this out there.
 

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Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Hard pews. Organ music. Silly chanting of prayers on one note. Draughty, echoing churches with hard-to-hear sound systems, old fashioned choir music, men in silly pointed hats and cloaks made of old fashioned curtain material, reading from books that skip from one page to another...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
My clergy friends say they enjoy church. I point out they get to DO stuff, we have to just sit.

---

This is one of Frank Viola's subtexts; what he proposes as 'church' is a small scale, informal gathering where everyone is encouraged to contribute. As a result it should be very different every week. Of course the problem with this is that in practice certain habits kick in, people ride their hobby horses etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Watch this 11 minute video about what motivates people -- Autonomy, challenge and mastery, and transcendent purpose.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Autonomy? Churches are opposed to autonomy for any but a few leaders such as clergy and somewhat the music director, possibly a Sunday school teacher, and depending on the church not even them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Challenge and mastery? Just keep doing what you did last week, last year, last decade in exactly the same way. Any job or entertainment that told you to do that you'd get awfully bored with. (Hamlet is a great play but would you want to sit and watch it every week for 50 years? The same arguments can be made about a weekly requirement to watch Hamlet that are made about a weekly requirement to go to church -- good discipline, important messages, it's not about you its about the play, etc.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Transcendent purpose? Churches claim to offer it, but do they? I'm not convinced what goes on in church has any direct relationship to worshiping God, and 90%-98% of a church's efforts are about itself, paying for the clergy and building and putting on it's programs for its own people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I don't think people are 'put off' by church. They've just never considered it.

Turn the question round - how would you reply, if you are a churchgoer, to someone who comes up and says to you, 'What puts you off from becoming a freemason/joining our amateur dramatic group/neighborhood watch?'

---

Dead right. At the risk of repeating myself, but then why not, I grew up in tough M/c area, where nobody was religious. My parents and their friends were not; my grandparents and their friends were not. Why would they be? One of my grandfathers used to curse clergymen, and said his main memory of them was in WWI, praying for them as they went over the top. Gee, thanks, padre; that went well.

---

Even more, the original question assumed that people ought to want to be interested in church, or were sort of subliminally intersted, and that somehow the church or the churches were putting them off. In truth, the situation is reversed.

If the churches want people to be interested, they have to do things that will seize the attention and awaken the interest of the utterly ignorant (about church) and utterly uninterested (about church). And they have to do it outside their church buildings where the targets will see it and hear it, and they will have to do it (whatever it is) in language and actions that mean something to the utterly ignorant (see above) and utterly uninterested.

Above all, they have to remember that the Great Commission doesn't say "don't have a safe place of rest and refreshment, you believers" -- but it does say "go out". Preaching (and singing, and..., and...) in church are all very well if they nourish the faithful, but do nothing at all for those who aren't already inside. And they're worthless if they don't also enable and encourage those inside to then go outside.

John
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
IngoB
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Desert Daughter:

quote:

---

- other people in general

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
IngoB

---

Seconded... I come from somewhere completely different to IngoB on the Christian spectrum, but yeah...

 

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Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :
 
That said, Belle Ringer does raise some interesting points. But the trouble is that for everyone who wants church like that (and as a minister, I would love it, really love it, if those things happened, not least all the decisions that get referred "upwards" which people are perfectly capable of making themselves), there are others who don't want that and are happy to come and sit and sing and listen to a sermon.

And I'm too much of a softie to say to either group "This is the way we're doing things - if you don't like, tough." I'd rather we went as much as possible together as a church, however difficult that may be.
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Autonomy? Churches are opposed to autonomy for any but a few leaders such as clergy and somewhat the music director, possibly a Sunday school teacher, and depending on the church not even them.

---

This assumes that Church is where religious life happens. But that one hour or so on a Sunday morning is not what determines your autonomy... You get six days off to pursue your spiritual development, and then you come to a one hour party of the "company". To say that your autonomy is threatened because you didn't get to DJ the party is a false perspective on religion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Trouble is that people who say "science and religion are compatible" say it generally as an assertion, not as a proof. I'm a Christian who doesn't generally feel threatened by science. But I have yet to see a convincing or convicting argument or way of thinking that can illustrate how they can be compatible without sacrificing one on the figurative altar of the other. I think for myself, if I cut really hard, it gets to a point where you're a scientifically literate person who chooses to go to church and "wrestle" with theological issues, intellectually. For most scientifically minded people, the church isn't opposed to science or incompatible with science, it's simply irrelevant because the truth claims that the church has a history of standing for are at the most not verifiable and highly unlikely.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sighthound:
I would suggest that many people today are (for whatever reason) commitment-phobic. I am myself to a large extent. Generally I had much rather pop into an open church to have a quiet word with God - and leave a donation - than attend a service. Though I have attended more services in the last couple of years than in the previous twenty.

Secondly, church used to be at the centre of the community. There aren't really communities like there used to be. There are individuals, and there are groups, but not really communities in the old sense of the word. People are rootless and move about too much - this is the result of the 'development' of capitalism.

Finally, there didn't use to be that much going on on a Sunday, so going off to church was actually a form of entertainment. At worst you might meet a few friends and enjoy a sing. Nowadays there are a hundred forms of entertainment to be had without even leaving the home. Many of them are free, or effectively so. And of course there are even more options for those venturing through the front door, including the most successful new 'religion' of modern times - retail therapy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Hard pews. Organ music. Silly chanting of prayers on one note. Draughty, echoing churches with hard-to-hear sound systems, old fashioned choir music, men in silly pointed hats and cloaks made of old fashioned curtain material, reading from books that skip from one page to another...

---

If people really hate those things then why has cathedral worship (which is the only place you generally find Anglicans in pointy hats because they are for bishops not priests) grown so much? On the contrary, all those things (imo) help the sense of God being other, something unusual. And personally speaking, I like such 'boring' things

Churches being different to the World is a good thing - we are supposed to be a distinctive group of people. I don't think churches build on this enough. Instead of trying to get ~down with the kids~, churches should be saying how different they are to the World, that we are a space to be free of all the junk the World foists upon us.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
If a church becomes known for something particular (eg. the emphasis on choral music, or the evangelical theology) then all the people who like that kind of worship will flock there, but anyone who doesn't will turn round and get the heck out. So you are always going to appeal to some groups and not others.

People will often look at those who go there and think 'Are they people like me?' I suspect that younger people feel this particularly keenly as there are relatively few of this age group in churches anyway.

Looking at my own church in particular, it seems to attract those who like choral music, catholic/liberal theology and who don't mind getting up early on a Sunday morning. If you are keen on guitars, have black and white opinions and like to lie in after the night before then I suspect we're not going to see much of you!
 

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Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :
 
What turns people (often Christians) away from churches? Think it through.

Trying to get in the main door & having to explain yourself to well-meaning sidepeople/greeters. Trying to prise enough books/service sheets off them for your whole party. Enduring an act of worship devoid of specific religious content. Listening to a sermon straight from Jerry Springer. Can't be bothered with any more...
 

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Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
Clearly the things that turn people off about church are the things that I dislike in a church. And everyone would come to church if it was exactly the way I like it. Or perhaps not.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
I know plenty who assume that "the church" (by which they mean the Anglican church) is anti-women and anti-gay. Sadly there are reasons to believe both.

That doesn't speak for all non-churchgoers, but a substantial group. The word "hypocrite" gets used as well. Arsey comments by some Christians towards other Christians give proof to such a claim.

I actually believe that the style of worship doesn't matter for many people. It's about whether people come across as having something worth having.

Edit: As someone who used to work for a cathedral I can say that many cathedral members don't "dip in and out". The cathedral I worked at saw growth in regular attendance and connection. I put this down to forward-thinking clergy, good sermons and simply nice people in the congo.

[ 17. December 2012, 21:35: Message edited by: Rosa Winkel ]
 

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Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
...It was not billed as a church, it had started as a few people meeting in someone's kitchen and had grown to over 100 people meeting in a gym by the time I found it.

Alas, the leader moved away, the guy he appointed as replacement was young an inexperienced and resorted authoritarianism, "you have to obey me." The whole thing quickly collapsed, within 3 weeks only 30 people attended, 6 weeks it was dead. The lesson I got out of that -- we don't know how to train people how to lead.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
At a cheese'n'wine before we even started going to the church we now attend, a total stranger from that church asked me "Have you been baptised in the Spirit?"

Maybe it's the Charismatic equivalent of "Do you come here often?" I can't imagine it encourages new blood.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If I get to be church 6 days a week outside the institution, how come I got scolded by the head clergy guy for volunteering with a charity instead of spending all my time on the institution's needs? It's the church institution that teaches, sometimes aggressively, that it's all about the institution, and the institution is all about Sunday morning.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Church is a party? Fine, but people don't stick around for boring parties with boring DJs, and church is deadly boring.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But a major problem with any conversation about what's right or wrong with church is that those who like church just the way it is think there's something terribly wrong with anyone who disagrees. Those who are happy where they are too often cannot accept that others are legitimately unhappy and belong elsewhere.

---

I don't know how long ago I last enjoyed a mass that was fully to my liking. Six years worth of Sundays? More? And yet, what of it? Do this in memory of me, not have a great time. The very world is torn by some fool lifting grain produce. And I for one can sometimes see. Nothing, and nobody, can take this away from me. Get some old time religion, I say. It gives perspective. And really, if it does not wrench your guts, now and then, what are you doing it for? Accept no substitute. Sanctity is as boring as a knife's edge...
 

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Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :
 
Depends on the church and the person staying away.
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Accept no substitute. Sanctity is as boring as a knife's edge...

---

quote:

---

Originally Posted by deano:
All I am putting forward is that we should try the same method, reduce the debate to a simple sound bite that can get through the media. Perhaps the CofE needs to hire a media relations expert to get Justin Welby into Hello or onto Loose Women, and to train him to get his message across in a 10-second clip. Why don't we get "our" message out there in a way that the people we want to reach are listening to?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stejjie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
IngoB

---

Seconded... I come from somewhere completely different to IngoB on the Christian spectrum, but yeah...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
If you have never had a word stretch across infinity, if you've never seen the smoke rising beyond, then what are you even doing in religion?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
the 10 second clip is the hard part. It's a joke I heard once in seminary, that the trouble with sound theology is that it doesn't lend itself to easy soundbytes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
the 10 second clip is the hard part. It's a joke I heard once in seminary, that the trouble with sound theology is that it doesn't lend itself to easy soundbytes.

---

How about lots of 10 second sound bites, rotate them once a month. "Love your neighbor," for example. "Do good to those who harm you." "Give away your extra stuff to those in need."

In book writing circles we say if you can't explain what it's about in 30 seconds, you either don't have a clear focus yet, or you are too hung up on details.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There does seem to be a lack of young people in more traditional forms of church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There does seem to be a lack of young people in more traditional forms of church.

---

I just yesterday bumped into the concept that today's kids have different brains than we do, and take their digital brains (trained by 10000 hours of video games by age 15) into analog schools, and don't connect. *IF* there is something to that theory, it would also affect the ability to connect to church, yes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
If you have never had a word stretch across infinity, if you've never seen the smoke rising beyond, then what are you even doing in religion?

---

Touch infinity! Oh yes!

But not in a formal church service. God is amazing, church is boring. I come home after an hour and a quarter of formal church irritable, and need most of an hour alone with God to get back any sense of God really existing.

Church is an anti-icon for me, it disconnects me from God or any interest in God. It took hanging around the Ship for me to slowly accept that some people really do see God through the formal event. Still puzzles me, but it just shows that humans beings are truly varied and that includes varied in how different ones best connect to God.

I have mentioned before the book spiritual pathways that talks about different personality types needing different, sometimes opposite, ways to connecting to God. He says no one approach to doing church will work well for more than 1/3rd of the people nor work partially for more than 2/3rds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:


In book writing circles we say if you can't explain what it's about in 30 seconds, you either don't have a clear focus yet, or you are too hung up on details.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stejjie:

I still can't help thinking that leo's post was on the money here. Even if we had the most engaging, relevant, pithy sermons; even if we had the most perfect churchmanship where liturgy (if that's your bag) was done well; even if every church had the most accomplished musicians in whichever style they choose - people p[robably still wouldn't come. Why not? Because church just isn't on their radar, it's just not something they'd think about as a possibility. And if we do want people to come to church (and I do have in the back of my mind that getting bums on seats isn't the be-all-and-end-all), then that's the first obstacle before we start judging sermons, liturgies, music etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
There does seem to be a lack of young people in more traditional forms of church.

---

I just yesterday bumped into the concept that today's kids have different brains than we do, and take their digital brains (trained by 10000 hours of video games by age 15) into analog schools, and don't connect. *IF* there is something to that theory, it would also affect the ability to connect to church, yes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
talk about what their churches are doing well atm) and would be especially good to read how people have engaged with their communities,

---

Start those threads!
 

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Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :
 
Hmm, where to start? The bullet point list also seems best to express this.

- Having as a "treat" (the PPs words) a bunch of ultra right wingers attempting to persuade the whole of the congregation to write to local TDs that abortion legislation was unnecessary as women "were always safe" in Ireland

- Sunday masses wholly focused on families with children in the local Catholic schools

- The stony silence of an Irish Catholic congregation faced with anything remotely musical

- The scramble across the pews to get to the middle aisle on time to get any of the Most Precious Blood (amazingly for an Irish Catholic church, the local shack does the chalice during the week only, but not a lot)

- Hymn books and an empty hymn board, so I'm clueless as to what the main choir are doing

- The parish magazine, the bulk of which is lifted from the EWTN website and consequently portrays Catholicism in splendid isolation and absolute correctness in relation to every other belief, ever. Added patronisation of "non-Catholics" a bonus

- Any parish meeting, which is policed for any dissent from the official line by a voluble minority of zealots

- The sheer wierdness of theories by same zealots who think nothing about buttonholing someone about the influence of "freemasons" and other conspiracy theories

To recycle a well known Irish phrase, these days I keep my head down like a Larne Catholic.

[ 18. December 2012, 13:27: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]
 

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Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :
 
Several posters have made the good point that people need and respond positively to different aspects of religious life at different stages of life. I agree with this but ...

... I'd like to speak up for those of us who are in many ways quite similar in late adulthood to we were as young people.

I've always loved, even as a child, those brief glimpses of transcendence that IngoB talks about. For me, this has consistently focused on the Eucharist. I've spent, on and off, more than half of my adult life outside churches. The only aspect of church life that I found myself missing in those periods was access to the Eucharist and the chance to meditate on its meaning in human life. Always, I found myself dropping into certain city churches for a time of private meditation and often wordless prayer.

I've always appreciated silence, "alone time," and retreating from the omnipresence of chatter. As a kid, I rather liked being sentenced to "sit in the corner." Most liturgies are, imo, non-stopped talking of some sort or other -- "we" prayers, Bible readings, creeds, sermons, announcements, chatting during the peace, etc. An advantage of church in non-English-speaking places is that, since I don't understand the literal meaning of the words, the sounds become almost musical in a non-literal way. I include most ordinary church music in the "talk" category. I'm not talking about great religious music superbly sung. So a time many Episcopal hymns especially those derived from the late 18th to early-19th centuries, when the quality of English versification was at low point and hymn music was not much better, strike me as being rather commonplace and sad. I do like to sing many kinds of music, but I did not grow up in a this particular tradition and take very little pleasure in it.

A few years ago, I returned one more time to church, worshipping in a small, very appealing Episcopal church. I like the people and the rites, and admire the clergy very much. I decided to make a real effort to focus on the elements that brought me closer to God and to try very hard to ignore those worship and fellowship elements that have gotten me in trouble in the past. My goal was to stop arguing with worship elements I do not agree with and/or do not like.

My salvation in these matters has turned out to be ... silicon EAR PLUGS.

Somehow, these allow me to tune out large chunks of Bible readings (especially a lot of OT and Paul), while remaining conscious of what is being read. Amazingly, once I stop arguing with the reading in my head, I actually find myself connecting -- and thinking about -- phrases or sections that turn out to mean quite a lot to me. The same holds for sermons. I've learned how to meditate during sermons, but still seem able to pull myself back when I hear something (a term, a phrase, a sentence) that I realize I need to hear and think about.

For me, earplugs, -- discreetly and carefully used -- have made "church" less stressful, more pleasurable, and much more spiritually edifying.
 

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Posted by bad man (# 17449) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There are at least four questions in this thread, and they don't necessarily have the same answers

1. What puts people off of church?
2. Why is church not on the radar for most people in society today?
3. What might attract people to church if they do come near the door?
4. What ensures that people within the church remain adequately engaged and matured?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Church can seriously take up a lot of time, and the emotional investment can be costly. And that's before you take the Gospel directly into account!!!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
1. If a person does not feel that they are part of the community/fraternity/etc/etc. that should be the Church, when the same small group does everything and the chance to engage is not put out to others it puts people off and they wont invest (to the point, IME, that they leave.)

2. It starts with the young ones, getting them involved is key to getting them to invest and remain...

Involvement, Involvement, Involvement!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clemency:
I HAD OFFENDED!
WHAT WAS WRONG? then it dawned
I was holding a glass of lager....

---

Very wrong. It should have been good English ale.
 

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Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
1. If a person does not feel that they are part of the community/fraternity/etc/etc. that should be the Church, when the same small group does everything and the chance to engage is not put out to others it puts people off and they wont invest (to the point, IME, that they leave.)

2. It starts with the young ones, getting them involved is key to getting them to invest and remain...

Involvement, Involvement, Involvement!

---

I numbered yiurs --

1. Yes. the book "Small Church Is Different" speaks of churches in which the long time members have such integrated lives because they've known each other for decades, no newcomer can find more than a passing "hello," and nothing said in a committee will be acknowledged if it wasn't said by one of the in-group. If you want newcomers to stay you need to open the social and participative circles to the newcomers, or help them form a "church within the church" with other newcomers.

2. Meaningful involvement. Make work just to have people "involved" is a turn-off.

Total mismatch of tasks demanded vs talents and interests is abusively de-personalizing, I don't care if someone attaches the word "discipline" or "sacrifice."

It's tricky in a top-down structure to find meaningful ways to involve people if the involvement consists of "we bosses have decided we want these activities, people will have to accept being put into slots for which they have no talent or interest." Viewing people as servants who should do what they are told like it or not is the opposite of community.

---

Since you put my thoughts in a much better form, do you mind if I just submit everything I want to say to you first and you then post it in a much better form!?!

I completely agree with everything you say, that jobs for jobs sake is meaningless and a match has to be found, and nobody should be pressurised into being involved, that is just as harmful, some people enjoy just coming in once a year to help with Christmas flowers for example and don't want to be involved week on week, which is just as legitimate.
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:


Since you put my thoughts in a much better form, do you mind if I just submit everything I want to say to you first and you then post it in a much better form!?!

I completely agree with everything you say, that jobs for jobs sake is meaningless and a match has to be found, and nobody should be pressurised into being involved, that is just as harmful, some people enjoy just coming in once a year to help with Christmas flowers for example and don't want to be involved week on week, which is just as legitimate.

---

It was YOUR thoughts, that's the important part! I just developed them a tad. Keep on thinking!
 

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Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by bad man:
3. A central attraction of Christianity since the first Easter Sunday has been its teaching about death or, to be precise, life after death and the hope of resurrection and a life in a world to come.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Jude:
What puts me off, personally, is when people in church, including the ministry, keep telling us what to do and how we should live our lives, and that if we don't believe the bible literally we aren't real Christians. Plus really weird evofundy charismatic stuff. I've had nearly ten years of this, it has destroyed my family and if I hadn't been brought up in traditional Church of England and had something to go back to I wouldn't be a Christian now.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by deusluxmea:
... people often don't go to church because they simply don't believe in God....

---

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by deusluxmea:
... people often don't go to church because they simply don't believe in God....

---

100% right. You have hit the nail on the head.

And why should they go to church? They'be be lying.

What Christianity needs is more Christians. More converts. Not more churchgoers regardless of who or what they have faith in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jude:
What puts me off, personally, is when people in church, including the ministry, keep telling us what to do and how we should live our lives, and that if we don't believe the bible literally we aren't real Christians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
An article from the Indie commending Fresh Expressions!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Clemency:
sorry, pressed wrong button and interrupted myself
I HAD OFFENDED!
WHAT WAS WRONG? then it dawned
I was holding a glass of lager.....

Mudfrog, forgive me

---

I'll meet you down at the mercy seat

Seriously, you know it's OK.
There are a few ex-Salvationists in this world and as long as they still love Jesus that's excellent; I thank God for the time he wanted them in the Army.

You have hit a nail on the head though - the very busy nature of Christian/Church culture in the generations up to, I imagine, the 1980s.

It was TOO busy and in our tradition the idea is that if you are committed you have to be committed to everything!
It's no wonder people agve up or didn't join in the first place.

You'll be glad to know that it's not normally like that anymore.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I sometimes think religion does more harm than good.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deusluxmea:
Thinking about people in my life (majority in their late 20s to mid 30s), I have found people often don't go to church because they simply don't believe in God, especially the Christian God. Sometimes, I think churches find it difficult to accept it may be that simple.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jude:
If people really hate those things then why has cathedral worship (which is the only place you generally find Anglicans in pointy hats because they are for bishops not priests) grown so much?

Cathedral worship isn't always for the dwellers above. We below can also join in worship.

From me, who loves Messiah, Baroque version.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
You have hit a nail on the head though - the very busy nature of Christian/Church culture in the generations up to, I imagine, the 1980s.

It was TOO busy and in our tradition the idea is that if you are committed you have to be committed to everything!

---

Thank you for saying that, about a tradition of expecting "full commitment" and being too busy. It makes sense of some puzzling things, like the committees that seem to meet for no purpose but to "get people involved" by attending committee meetings, or the annoyance about people who "don't do enough around here" in spite of being in choir or teaching Sunday school, as if retirees are supposed to spend full time on the institutional church.

Helps to know it's a hangover tradition, not a personally targeted abuse.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
It wan't what churches did that put me off, it was what I thought churches did.

The word on the street was that churches were out for money, although they didn't need it. The word was that 'churchy' people thought they were superior to everyone else. The word was that people could believe in God without going to church, and didn't need to have people in the church telling them what they should and shouldn't do. I occasionally went into churches, for a look around or for a wedding, baptism or funeral. They gave me the creeps, especially the old ones with plaques on the floor. I imagined that I was walking over dead bodies. The words in the services and hymns were in a strange language and meant nothing to me. I was very uncomfortable with singing in public. I didn't connect church with spirituality.

My life was fully occupied, and Sunday morning was precious time off. The last thing I wanted to do was to go to church. When I came to faith, I remained convinced for some time that I could believe on my own and that church was neither necessary nor desirable.

God had other ideas, and ultimately convinced me that worship and service was not only to be alone but also in community. It caused all kinds of hassle in the family. Now, several years later, I would still happily walk away from church, especially when someone has been unkind or I've been bored, but I remember what I'm there for, and have it confirmed often by the blessing of God's peace during a service that it's his will too.

The symbolism, the setting, the ritual, the hymns, the people, and the Eucharist all have their place in the whole spiritual deal and I would miss them now that I've got used to and appreciate them.

For me, God comes first, and church comes too only if and when it's where God wants me to be at the time. I'm with those above who say that we need to tell people the good news about Jesus Christ in ways that they can relate to and which will dispel the urban myths and straw men of the atheists. Somehow.



 

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Posted by Imersge Canfield (# 17431) on :
 
This thread has caused me to think long and hard, composing comments in my mind -in the middle of the night even !

All I can do is write a bit now, and then maybe another day.

I think there are what I am thinking of as macro and micro levels.

On the macro, all the factors making Christianity or if you like the Christianities so problematic - perhaps today more than ever.

CONFLICT

I found my thoughts coalescing around conflict.

All the conflict leading to councils like Nicea, and doctrine being shaped by or at least amidst great conflicts.

Also of course, all the battles and wars -

the medieval and other pogroms against Jewish people.

The Inquistion, Reformation, and Counter-Reformat ion.

Why so much torture and killing ?

Is Christianity inherently sadistic ? Or sado-masichistic ? The torture and killing of Jesus, in time, and now commemorated daily in 'Eucharistic Sacrifice'; and in the cult of the cross / crucifix.

As a life-long christian and deeply involved in all this / Church, these those coalescing like this are striking and surprising to me ! Maybe i'll feel different tomorrow ? But can these facts change ?

Maybe all that suffering and upheaval, and destruction of the 'little people' was worth it ?

I feel doubtful.


Also the problematic nature of the texts which eventually and accidentally ended in books, and then one binding and appearing conveniently like one book. The mind-set, theories of mind, cultures and so on reflected in different books (now in 'Bible). the stuff we find problematic and troubling we call rather anachronistically -but what can we do but be our modern / post modern selves ?

So we call this perplexing stuff

superstitious, magic thinking, primitive, some of it is stone age etc., sexist, mysogenist, masculinist, homophobic,disablist, abusive -of children and slaves etc. Then we come on to anti-semiticism too.

Why have the Churches done so little to act on all this, given that scholars, thinkers, philosophers, psychologists and activists have been pointing stuff out for a long time ?

Christian doctrine / doctrines are equally infected with this kind of stuff too, arent they.

Why have Churches so often sided with the rich and powerful against the oppressed ? Not always but often- e.g. slave trade; Franco, the South American land-owners - Liberation theology was not supported by Vatican. Nor are radical social working nuns in the US, today.


For me the use of 'blindnes' and visually impaired people in the Bible and Christian devotion, as a metaphore for lack of understanding and insight, stubborness and hardness of heart, is very hard for some of us personally to bear. You may not have 'seen' this yourself - but from here on just take a 'look'. Listen to those prayers and sermons ! How would you like to be turned to metaphore / stone !

Same goes for 'deaf' etc - or should that really be Deaf.

I have said nothing about one's concrete treatment at the hands of individual churches, ministers or congregants. For another time !

Suffice it to say, for now, that many churches project a naivete and false innocence which is jarring, unreal and of no help at all.

[ 19. December 2012, 20:10: Message edited by: Imersge Canfield ]
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imersge Canfield:

For me the use of 'blindnes' and visually impaired people in the Bible and Christian devotion, as a metaphore for lack of understanding and insight, stubborness and hardness of heart, is very hard for some of us personally to bear. You may not have 'seen' this yourself - but from here on just take a 'look'. Listen to those prayers and sermons ! How would you like to be turned to metaphore / stone !

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mstevens:
Right now I'm fairly happy in my lack of churchyness and, in fact, christianity.

However, in the past when I've had moments of "I want to hear more about the church/christianity/all that sort of thing" I've occasionally been seized by (very) mild enthusiasm, looked up a local church, or some outpost of christianity, and emailed them with polite variants of "I want to hear about this religion thing you do".

As far as I remember the only people to ever respond were the alpha course, and a quick session with them turned me off very very quickly.

So what the church does that turns people off in my book is, slipping into slightly commercial language, ignoring prospective customers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
I still sing in a church choir and the thing which is increasingly close to driving me away is the level of presumption regarding our time. The commitment is big anyway but then, on top of that, there is an extra practice or an extra choral service or a concert on the last Saturday before Christmas that we are just expected to prioritise over anything else. Some prior consultation before they are stuck in the choir diary would be nice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mstevens:
Right now I'm fairly happy in my lack of churchyness and, in fact, christianity.

However, in the past when I've had moments of "I want to hear more about the church/christianity/all that sort of thing" I've occasionally been seized by (very) mild enthusiasm, looked up a local church, or some outpost of christianity, and emailed them with polite variants of "I want to hear about this religion thing you do".

As far as I remember the only people to ever respond were the alpha course, and a quick session with them turned me off very very quickly.

So what the church does that turns people off in my book is, slipping into slightly commercial language, ignoring prospective customers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deusluxmea:
... people often don't go to church because they simply don't believe in God....

---

100% right. You have hit the nail on the head.

And why should they go to church? They'be be lying.

What Christianity needs is more Christians. More converts. Not more churchgoers regardless of who or what they have faith in.

---

I'd echo this - after all, the Great Commission says 'make disciples', not 'get people to come to the church meetings'. If we focus on encouraging and helping people to become believers in and followers of Jesus then the church attendance / participation is likely to follow as a natural consequence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
What gets people into church? It starts IMHO with real people - I suppose that the technical term is authenticity. Real people don't go banging on about the latest theological issues - real people care and, dare I say it, love.

Real people acknowledge mistakes, address concerns, seek to right wrongs and don't attempt to pretend that they (or their church) are the best thing ever invented. Real people know when to get involved, at what level and when to back off. Real people give and don't want to get. Real people accept that God isn't just found inside a building, he's with us anywhere. When people who don't come to church now come i n contact with the real deal as found in an honest, down to earth believer, who they respect, then they will sit up and take notice.

What keeps people away from church? The opposite to the above - hypocrisy, assumptions, distance, presumption, prejudice. Add meaningless rituals, silly voices, singing that people can't make the words out cos it's screechy, pointy hats, classism, smugness, country club atmospehere with "in" jokes and nice cars in the car park, funny clothes, anything (in the uk at least) that looks like american televangelism, money for meaningless building projects -- and you have a recipe for disaster aka unwelcome for the outsider.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
[QUOTE]I think you're right, because as others have said here, it's often churchgoers who put people off church.

But, imo, I would say that everyone is 'real people'. Christ ministered, so far as he was permitted to, to everyone who approached him - adulterer, hypocrite, sinner, tax-collector pharisee. He preached the story of the tares and wheat growing together, and the idea that it was up to the angels of God to do the weeding when God gave the word.

It's wrong, I think, to fall into the trap of thinking that apparently 'bad' Christians or selfish churchgoers are not 'real' people. In Revelation some expressions of church were criticized for their lukewarmness or worldliness - their lampstands were threatened! And personally if a church community has run its useful course and is not practising 'real' christianity, this sounds very logical and right.

But the people ourselves/themselves are always real. Real enough for Christ to have died for us, even if some of us don't practise that message.

Also, if we tend to think of 'unspiritual' or apparently worldly churchy people as not real, I'm afraid that does bring a huge temptation to weaker minded people having pride in their own 'real' christianity, and judging others in a way that they would certainly not wish to be judged themselves! There's a lot which is false in all of us; some more than others, certainly, and self-blindness (if I can use that phrase metaphorically) is the hardest thing to see. (Not addressed towards yourself, ExclamationMark!)

However, just to repeat your general point that those behaviours put some people is certainly true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imersge Canfield:

For me the use of 'blindnes' and visually impaired people in the Bible and Christian devotion, as a metaphore for lack of understanding and insight, stubborness and hardness of heart, is very hard for some of us personally to bear. You may not have 'seen' this yourself - but from here on just take a 'look'. Listen to those prayers and sermons ! How would you like to be turned to metaphore / stone !

---

This is a subject which interests me as an ophthalmic nurse with a visually impaired twin. Have you read any of John Hull's books? His most well known is 'Touching the rock' but 'In the beginning there was darkness' directly look at the issue of the bible and visual impairment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imersge Canfield:

---

[/QUOTE]
Actually a brother he was born with congenital cataracts in the days before they gave children implants, he also has other related eye problems. When we were 8 he was sent away to a blind boarding school and we were both heart broken by it. It's left me with a strong interest in disability rights, and especially visual impairment.

Which reminds me, the reason I never went to church as a child was because of my first experiences of Sunday school aged about 6 or 7. The leaders decided it would be a good idea to separate the 2 of us and put him in with much younger children because of his poor vision. We were both very upset, not only was it tactless of them and demeaning for him but he relied on me to help him, I'd always guided him. The pair of us were miserable about it and kicked up such a fuss that my parents stopped taking us.

Re: John Hull, I'm surprised his book isn't available on Kindle to make it more accessible.
 

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Posted by mstevens (# 15437) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Ouch; yes, that's appalling customer care, and the churches that didn't respond deserve a slapping. However I'm curious about your dislike of the alpha course: what didn't you like? My perception is that it is a good format - the input combined with the opportunity to discuss on a good day allows real openness to develop, which was what you were looking for. But your experience was obviously negative. Was it the format, the input, or the leaders of your group? Certainly there can be a problem if the leaders find they are out of their depth, panic and try to close a discussion down; the best response is to promise to research the issue in time for the next session.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
as others have said here, it's often churchgoers who put people off church.

But, imo, I would say that everyone is 'real people'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Belle Ringer, I agree completely. And all those people are ordinary real people having typical ordinary real conflicts. The exclusive choir master, the 'tut-tutting' parishioner at the fidgety child; the warm welcomer etc.

Sadly, one would hope that a church community would be good at adapting to or at least living with such conflicts, but often we're not. Rather like real life we have to jog along as well as we can, which sometimes means a rough ride, much forgiveness and even pissing each other off.

I guess church-life is - in that respect - a school for straining towards perfection, rather than a college for the perfect!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
there's an unwillingness to address issues because there is a disastrous idea out there that 'love' means 'all is sweetness and light'. Therefore instead of talking about the issues such as 'Is the choir there as a social occasion or a quality musical production' - or even more catastrophically 'Old Smith who is a totally unwelcoming but has been doing sidesman duty for 30 years without anyone suggesting someone else might be better ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
there's an unwillingness to address issues because there is a disastrous idea out there that 'love' means 'all is sweetness and light'. Therefore instead of talking about the issues such as 'Is the choir there as a social occasion or a quality musical production' - or even more catastrophically 'Old Smith who is a totally unwelcoming but has been doing sidesman duty for 30 years without anyone suggesting someone else might be better ...

---

Maybe all we need is creative thinking? Not, "Ms Jones, you can't sing a note in tune, leave the choir; Old Smith, you are dismissed from your post, we're better off with no one"; but find a positive role for each person that is a genuine role and uses their real and present talents?

It's hard, requires getting to know someone. Also there's a problem when where their talents lie is someone else's exclusive turf.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mstevens:
Further thought - talking about helping the poor, being good to the less fortunate, service, etc, is much less convincing when you're in a nice building wearing nice clothes and arrived in a nice car.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received.

---

I have recently heard various clergy respond to child noise with an immediate (mid-sermon, or right after the current prayer and before the next one), announcement "we love babies, we don't mind their noises, we are delighted you are here." I suspect (hope) this silences congregation members who might otherwise glare at or complain to the parents of the "offending" child.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
A sign on the door of our neighbour church which has become quite celebrated locally!

---

Hmm - let's bring back the Latin mass then; at some point it becomes pointless to have a service in English if the children are so disruptive as to render its content incomprehensible. If there is no other service in this church except one where this policy is in place, then the Papist opponents of the mass in the vernacular have indeed won the day
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

2. A sign on the door of our neighbour church which has become quite celebrated locally!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
....For me the perfect solution is the side aisle that is separated from the rest of the church by a glass wall with a loudspeaker system ensuring that the children's side can hear the sermon as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps we're looking at this from the wrong end - maybe it's more productive to look at what DOES attract people to churches and see how that can be incorporated in some way into the regular worshipping life of the church.

When we hold a Christmas Tree Festival, people flock to the church in their thousands. Now, how to build on that interest and take it forward? Any ideas?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

2. A sign on the door of our neighbour church which has become quite celebrated locally!

---

rather spoilt by the notice to its right.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

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Originally posted by mstevens:
Further thought - talking about helping the poor, being good to the less fortunate, service, etc, is much less convincing when you're in a nice building wearing nice clothes and arrived in a nice car.

---

Doesn't that depend on the context?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Amika:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:
what DOES attract people to churches and see how that can be incorporated in some way into the regular worshipping life of the church.

When we hold a Christmas Tree Festival, people flock to the church in their thousands. Now, how to build on that interest and take it forward?

---

I'd imagine that when people attend church in their droves for things like Christingle services or Christmas carol services... What draws them? At Christmas at least, I believe it's to gain a warm, fuzzy feeling of community and comfort.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received.

---

I have recently heard various clergy respond to child noise with an immediate (mid-sermon, or right after the current prayer and before the next one), announcement "we love babies, we don't mind their noises, we are delighted you are here."

---

...sermon... is a serious effort to learn more about God, then allowing children to distract from this process is unreasonable. If you were a student, would you be happy for your lectures to be disrupted by children in the class? If not, why should the teaching of God's word be any less sacrosanct?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

2. A sign on the door of our neighbour church which has become quite celebrated locally!

---

rather spoilt by the notice to its right.

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Originally posted by lily pad:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
....For me the perfect solution is the side aisle that is separated from the rest of the church by a glass wall with a loudspeaker system ensuring that the children's side can hear the sermon as well.

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Gosh, I was with you right up until you said the children would be the ones put behind the glass wall.

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Rats - I meant to leave it ambiguous...
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I will admit, as someone who is childfree by choice and also has sensory issues, I do find the noise of small children VERY distracting and sometimes physically uncomfortable. But old people whispering and gossiping is just as distracting! I'm at church for what, an hour and a half once a week, you just deal with it.
 

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Posted by Squibs (# 14408) on :
 

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Originally posted by Squirrel:
Just to clarify, I'm not interested in discussing things like the (alleged) increasing secularization of society, Dawkins, etc, here. I'm asking what so many churches seem to be doing that keeps people away from them.

Recently I read an article in The Lutheran (available only to subscribers, so I can't post a link) in which a Texas pastor said that the biggest reason for non-church attendance is the people in the churches. He goes on to list many un-Christian behaviors that, many unchurched folks tell him, keep people away. "Church" people, it seemed, were not behaving in a very Christian manner, and visitors picked that up.

So, what do you think? What, if anything, are the churches doing that so turns people off?

[title formatting]

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I will admit, as someone who is childfree by choice and also has sensory issues, I do find the noise of small children VERY distracting and sometimes physically uncomfortable. But old people whispering and gossiping is just as distracting! I'm at church for what, an hour and a half once a week, you just deal with it.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I will admit, as someone who is childfree by choice and also has sensory issues, I do find the noise of small children VERY distracting and sometimes physically uncomfortable. But old people whispering and gossiping is just as distracting! I'm at church for what, an hour and a half once a week, you just deal with it.

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As a parent (25 + years ago now) and a grandparent, there's nothing more off putting to children than being glared at for being children. Yes I now there's degrees of beig children and they can all be noisy etc but it needs a bit of give and take. After all, everyone else with traits of bad behaviour expects us to accommodate them - and usually get their way. Why be different with children?

When looking for a "new" church when I moved, on at least one occasion I haven't gone back to a church because of the looks I received at my 3 young children who were used to church and well behaved.

You could always put up a sign saying children are not welcome unless they are quiet and well behaved (who determoines what this is?). Wait, most churches don't need to - their attitudes and practices say that already.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This is one thing I've always liked about Catholic churches, although maybe they are not all the same. I sometimes go to one close by, partly cos the music is nice, but there is a huge din from kids, yelling, playing with their toys, and so on, so much so, that at times, you can't hear the homily. But on the other hand, I like it. It's alive. It's life. For people to be shushing kids is really weird, for me at any rate. Let's have a funereal silence, so I can think in private, and not have these messy kids messing up my life.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When looking for a "new" church when I moved, on at least one occasion I haven't gone back to a church because of the looks I received at my 3 young children who were used to church and well behaved.

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A point you didn't make clear was whether there was alternative provision for the children that you were declining to use. If there is such provision, then it is reasonable to expect parents to make use of it, so their children disrupting the usual experience of church is unfair. If not, then it's very different discussion.
 

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Posted by Ender's Shadow (# 2272) on :
 
I feel an irregular verb coming on:
My child make a joyful noise unto the Lord
Your children are a bit noisy
Their children are horribly disruptive
 

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Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :
 

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Originally posted by Komensky:

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Originally posted by Hezekiah:
Guitars

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Yep. And drums--and shitty music played shittily in general.

K.

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Today at our Blatently Child Orientated Service, one lovely father was turned Right Off church by the insistant and non too quiet 'shushing' and telling offs that his young child received."

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Originally posted by The5thMary:
I agree with Jade Constable. Church is not the "venue" for children to yell and play with their toys! When I was a child and had to endure a long Mass, I would count hats or count the tiles on the floor or just doze quietly. At no point in a service would I ever have even thought to yell, run around or play with toys. I didn't have any toys in my pockets and my mother would never have let me bring any toys to church. Children need to be taught that church is not a place to play. Yeah, church can be a crippling bore sometimes (even as an adult, I think this!)but the service is not meant to entertain us like reading a magazine, watching t.v. or playing around on the computer. I cringe at the idea that some people think it's perfectly okay to let their children run up and down the aisles during a church service.

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Not every child is the veritable angel with endless internal resources to get through the boring bits that you clearly were.
 

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Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on :
 
Alternative provision for kids is great, but it isn't appropriate for all children or families. While attending a new church my son decided he wouldn't go in the creche because of the strange new people and crowds and noise. So we stayed in the foyer with a few toys and some colouring. Other parents joined us as it meant they still were part of the church service rather than in another room and unable to take part. There was probably some noise drifting into the church but it was that or go home. Most parents are very aware of the noise their children are making and normally do what they can to reduce it - assuming the worst of us will not encourage us to remain in the church.
 

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Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :
 
On the children issue:

1) To those assuming that parents always assume their children are the best behaved ones - not necessarily. I'm sure that for as many parents who are convinced their children never make a noise, there are as many parents (like me and Mrs Stejjie) who go through most services assuming everyone's really, really cross with our children for being wild, feral children and us for being the worst parents in the world. You don't know how much of a relief it is to be told "Your children were so good today", particular when you're convinced they've been awful.
(Oh, and our youngest, who's only 2 today, observed the 2 minutes' silence on Remembrance Sunday impeccably - perhaps better than some of the others there. [/daddy boast]).

2) More widely (and perhaps ultra-obviously), this seems to be one of those areas where it's impossible to generalise what will and won't drive people away. For some, the notice that Baptist Trainfan linked to will be a godsend; for others it will be the thing that convinces them to go to try somewhere else.
Neither of which are necessarily wrong reactions; in fact deciding you don't want to go to a church precisely because children are allowed to yell and scream and you know that would be a distraction or worse seems to me a move of great integrity.
Perhaps what churches need to do is work out amongst themselves what policy/attitude/whatever the right word is towards children's behaviour they want to adopt, taking into account the needs of the congregation, the style of worship, the image they want to project etc. And then make that clear, so that parents aren't in any doubt as to what to expect.
(There would, of course, be an onus on the congregation to live with that once it had been agreed and not to start shushing if it had been decided not to. Conversely, if a church decided it wanted to maintain a quiet and reverential atmosphere and that children shouting weren't conducive to that, then the onus may well fall on leaders to ensure that that was communicated and "enforced".
All this is, of course, much easier if your church is congregational in polity... )
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

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Originally posted by Stejjie:

All this is, of course, much easier if your church is congregational in polity... )

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

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Originally posted by Stejjie:

All this is, of course, much easier if your church is congregational in polity... )

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Don't you believe it.

Congregation = 100.
Different opinions = 150.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aye, suffer, little children who come unto me ...

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
When looking for a "new" church when I moved, on at least one occasion I haven't gone back to a church because of the looks I received at my 3 young children who were used to church and well behaved.

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A point you didn't make clear was whether there was alternative provision for the children that you were declining to use. If there is such provision, then it is reasonable to expect parents to make use of it, so their children disrupting the usual experience of church is unfair. If not, then it's very different discussion.

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Does any church actually care about any of these (very good) points given on this thread so far? I don't recall ever seeing a Suggestions Box at the back of a church. Not once.

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

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Originally posted by Stejjie:

All this is, of course, much easier if your church is congregational in polity... )

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Don't you believe it.

Congregation = 100.
Different opinions = 150.

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:

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Does any church actually care about any of these (very good) points given on this thread so far? I don't recall ever seeing a Suggestions Box at the back of a church. Not once.

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Then speak to the pastor about it. Do you have a voice? Surely you know how to use it.

Most of us do give a damn. We can't change issues about communion, such as who can have it (baptized Christians) and how often its done (every day and sometimes twice) but we can speak to people about issues with kids. On the other hand, maybe we'll just tell you to get over it.

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Originally posted by BWSmith:
What turns people off about church? A lack of "love" in both word and deed...

Show me a church in an uncomfortable facility, with a boring worship style, that doesn't hit on your particular intellectual topic. If that church shows unconditional Christlike love to members and visitors alike, it will be bursting at the seams every Sunday...

Show me a church in a brand new facility that follows all the latest worship trends.., If the people show no love, the pews will be empty every Sunday.

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The first one is where it appears that someone or something other than Jesus is in charge of the church, so "God" language comes across to them not as language of a loving creator, but a defense of poor clergy and parishioners.

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:

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The first one is where it appears that someone or something other than Jesus is in charge of the church, so "God" language comes across to them not as language of a loving creator, but a defense of poor clergy and parishioners.

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I must admit that I have never been in such a church that gave me that sort of feeling. Could you say more about this? What exactly was it that gave you the feeling that God and/or Jesus Christ was not "in charge" of the church? What, specifically, would give you the feeling that God and/or Jesus was "in charge" of the church?

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When the pastor preaches on 'tithing' and cites the authoritative "Biblical basis" of 10% (gross) based on Leviticus, yet ignores the "authority" all the other laws of the Torah (since those are "nailed to the cross")...

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When the choir director prioritizes professionalism over "making a joyful noise", e.g. regularly picking some of the least friendly people

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When church committees run up debts contributing to missions with which you disagree [...]

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This is not to say that the church is doing "God's will" when it does "everything I agree with".

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Originally posted by womanspeak:
I wonder if a suggestion box might work?

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

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Originally posted by womanspeak:
I wonder if a suggestion box might work?

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LOL, I was in a church that put up a suggestion box. I guess a few people dropped off some suggestions, because two months later we were scolded for making suggestions. "If something needs doing, do it, don't try to add to someone else's work load."

In a way, I can see the complaint, but when a suggestion is to move Sunday School hour to a different time slot or location, no one person in the congregation can just do it on their own; or to repaint the halls, if you just do it you'll be criticized for doing it without going through the proper channels and for picking the wrong colors.

Maybe he intended suggestions to be about hymn selections?

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Originally posted by BWSmith:
What turns people off about church? A lack of "love" in both word and deed. Too many churches are "Corinthian" churches.

Show me a church in an uncomfortable facility, with a boring worship style, that doesn't hit on your particular intellectual topic. If that church shows unconditional Christlike love to members and visitors alike, it will be bursting at the seams every Sunday. (You'd be amazed what inconveniences people will put up with in an environment of Christian love.)

Show me a church in a brand new facility that follows all the latest worship trends, and that makes a perpetual effort to be "relevant". If the people show no love, the pews will be empty every Sunday. People will always find some reason to say they don't like that church, when the reality is they don't feel the love.

I daresay that churches that see the need to manipulate their external appearances for the sake of attracting new members are churches that have given up on love as a strategy...

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Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
You would prefer that the church not send money to missions you disagree with. Then you cite these matters of personal preference or opinion as evidence that God/Jesus is not "in charge" of the church. That seems a strange leap to me.

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Divorce is a sin?

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Originally posted by Quinquireme:
A friend of mine (atheist) is a photographer who frequently does shoots in cathedrals for coffee table books. He usually finds the vergers and other officials to be mean-spirited and unco-operative. I must say they have often looked that way to me too when I have visited such places.

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Possibly many vergers have had 'problems' with photographers and visitors (not your friend, I'm sure), and unfortunately some of them must get quite cynical and soured. Or at least defensive and suspicious. It's a shame because I suppose vergers are part of the ministry of welcome in the Church. But maybe some people find it hard to strike the balance of being defenders of a holy place and welcomers, too.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
What Karl said.



Ian J.
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Let's cool it with the personal attacks, people!

Gwai
Purgatory host
 

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Posted by BWSmith (# 2981) on :
 

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Every person in the world (apart from you apparently, which allows you to sit in judgement over everyone else) has "relationship and/or personality issues". Every person in the world (above proviso again) makes unfortunate "life choices" (it comes partly of not being omniscient, partly of being fallible, and partly of not achieving moral perfection). Human nature, including everyone's (except apparently yours), seeks to divert blame.

So, unless you plan to do everything in the church yourself, you're going to have to allow some of these awful, failed, human scum you are forced to share a church with to do some things as well.

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Originally posted by BWSmith:
Before I came to the church, [my former Sunday School teacher] had apparently gone through a very ugly divorce (with children) and remarried. It used to make me uncomfortable when he and his second wife would share anecdotes about the lack of respect and initiative their teenage son (from his first wife) showed the stepmom, with the subtext that parenting is hard and sometimes you need to get tough with kids because it's God's will that they honor their mother and father. However, given the unprofessional way that these two conducted themselves, it was nearly impossible for me to not sympathize with the son.

It made me wonder why people like this are put in a position of "wisdom" over me when they are unable to see what is obvious to everyone else - that their life choices are the cause of their relationship problems, even if they want to blame everyone else.

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