Thread: Purgatory: Pope Resigns Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
This is dramatic news.

Has it ever happened before? What could his reasons be?

Do p***s resign due to ill health?

Is it about the abuse scandal?

How will the RCC react?

Know then thyself, presume not God to scan;
The pr***r study of mankind is man. - Alexander P***, An Essay on Man: Epistle II

<small>[ 11. February 2013, 23:08: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]</small>

[ 10. April 2013, 05:57: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
Hm... fair questions, but not new.

Plac'd on this isthmus of a middle state,
A being darkly wise, and rudely great: - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:28: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Assumed this was a practical joke - but it looks as though it's actually happening. I often wondered about JP2 resigning, when his health got so bad, but I never thought Benny would.

With too much knowledge for the sceptic side,
With too much weakness for the stoic's pride, - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:55: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Von Bingen (# 13902) on :
 
Here's what Wikipedia has to say about papal resignations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_resignation

He hangs between; in doubt to act, or rest;
In doubt to deem himself a god, or beast; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:56: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Apparently the announcement was made in Latin by the p*** himself, and Italian/German news agency report that it will happen soon (28th of February)!

The timing is odd. I wouldn't have expected him to pull out in the middle of Lent, if it was merely for personal reasons (i.e., being fed up with the Curia, wanting to finish his life writing books, or whatever). I'm afraid my best bet currently is that he's dying... I haven't seen anything on the usual "informed channels" yet.

In doubt his mind or body to prefer;
Born but to die, and reas'ning but to err; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:31: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

The timing is odd. I wouldn't have expected him to pull out in the middle of Lent, if it was merely for personal reasons (i.e., being fed up with the Curia, wanting to finish his life writing books, or whatever). I'm afraid my best bet currently is that he's dying... I haven't seen anything on the usual "informed channels" yet.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

The timing is odd. I wouldn't have expected him to pull out in the middle of Lent, if it was merely for personal reasons (i.e., being fed up with the Curia, wanting to finish his life writing books, or whatever). I'm afraid my best bet currently is that he's dying... I haven't seen anything on the usual "informed channels" yet.

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Good point about lent. But haven't p***s died in office for many centuries?

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quote:

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"Dear brothers - said the P*** to the c*******s - I called this consistory not only for the three canonization, but also to communicate a decision of great importance for the life of the Church. Having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have reached the certainty that my strength, advanced age, are no longer suitable for exercise pr***rly the Petrine ministry. ""I am well aware - he added - that this ministry, for its spiritual essence, must be done not only with the works and words, but no less suffering and p*r*a*y*ing. However, in today's world, subject to rapid change and agitated by issues of great importance for the life of faith, to steer the boat of St. Peter and proclaim the Gospel, you must also force both for the body and soul, force that, in recent months, I fell in such a way as to acknowledge my inability to manage well the ministry entrusted to me."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Assumed this was a practical joke - but it looks as though it's actually happening. I often wondered about JP2 resigning, when his health got so bad, but I never thought Benny would.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

Still seems very sudden.

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Maybe not for him? He may have been considering it for months. But he kept the secret very well if that's the case!

Or tread the mazy round his follow'rs trod,
And quitting sense call imitating God; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:42: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by beatmenace (# 16955) on :
 
Timing seems odd. During the run-up to Easter. Knowing how long these things take do you think the Pilgrims in St Peter's Square will be satified with an empty balcony on Easter Sunday?

Or will you just get some nondescript C******* delivering the Easter Homily!

As Eastern ******s in giddy circles run,
And turn their heads to imitate the sun. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:43: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
They could borrow ex-ABC Rowan Williams. Now that would be brilliant.

Go, teach Eternal Wisdom how to rule—
Then drop into thyself, and be a fool! - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:44: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
Good point about lent. But haven't p***s died in office for many centuries?

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quote:

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Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Presumably, since he died in office, P*** John Paul II was rather limited in his ability to influence who his successor might be.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
Assuming ******** is around during the period of his successor's election, what involvement might he have?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Drifting Star:
the P***'s Aides were 'incredulous' at the decision.

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- delicious. So for once it was a matter between the P*** and his God, leaving all the flunkeys in the dark...

But when his own great work is but begun,
What Reason weaves, by Passion is undone. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:50: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Your National ******** Reporter article is already offline, IngoB.


Trace science then, with modesty thy guide;
First strip off all her equipage of pride; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:51: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
A fairly recent (and competent!) list of possible "papabiles" is here.

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H&A day ate my link. This should work.

Deduct what is but vanity, or dress,
Or learning's luxury, or idleness; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:52: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
interesting point made on the bbc about the P*** wishing to spend the rest of his life in an enclosed (former?) nuns' convent within the Vatican. Enclosed or not, the presence of a former P*** in close proximity of the new one will be difficult.

I would have thought he'd seek retirement in a monastery in South Germany.

Or tricks to show the stretch of human brain,
Mere curious pleasure, or ingenious pain; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:53: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Codepoet (# 5964) on :
 
Why is the BBC saying that he is "resigning" and not "retiring"? Could it be that resignation is what politicians are hounded to do when they have done something wrong? He is 85 years old - the word retirement just seems so obvious, it is striking that they have not used it.

Expunge the whole, or lop th' excrescent parts
Of all our Vices have created Arts; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 21:59: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Codepoet:
Why is the BBC saying that he is "resigning" and not "retiring"? Could it be that resignation is what politicians are hounded to do when they have done something wrong? He is 85 years old - the word retirement just seems so obvious, it is striking that they have not used it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Enclosed or not, the presence of a former P*** in close proximity of the new one will be difficult.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Why is the BBC saying that he is "resigning" and not "retiring"? Could it be that resignation is what politicians are hounded to do when they have done something wrong? He is 85 years old - the word retirement just seems so obvious, it is striking that they have not used it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
The papacy has in common with UK (Prime) Ministries that it has no "retirement age". Usually one stays in the job until one is removed, in the political case by the voter or the Prime Minister, in the religious case by death. If one goes early, then that simply is called a "resignation", no matter why that has happened.

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Enclosed or not, the presence of a former **** in close proximity of the new one will be difficult.

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In general, maybe. In this particular case, I doubt that very much. BXVI is a quiet gentleman scholar, and just about the last thing he will be seeking is the limelight, whether public or ecclesiastic. Come to think of it, he really is the best possible pick for establishing the pr***r decorum for a resigned **** in modern times.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
What will he become once he's stepped down?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
I'd always assumed it was more like a monarch and that they held the post until death. What will he become once he's stepped down?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
It's not just about the person who resigns / retires - it's about those who were close to him being less than fully respectful to the successor by continuing to seek his advice / 'wisdom'. Such a temptation. He should go far away.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
...I'm hoping for a really extraordinary outcome in which the Holy Spirit proves His mettle and ++KJC is elevated to the throne of Peter. From God's mouth to the collective ears of those tiresome old men in their scarlet dresses and lace who will be convening in the Sistine Chapel.

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Myself, I h*** for a **** who will bring back the burning of heretics with --KJS as the first guest of honor.

Thicker than arguments, temptations throng,
At best more watchful this, but that more strong. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:13: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Sorry, but can we have "KJC" and "KJS" unabbreviated, please?

In other news, it seems like this really was a surprise move by the ****, see the video here.

The action of the stronger to suspend,
Reason still use, to reason still attend. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:14: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Sorry, but can we have "KJC" and "KJS" unabbreviated, please?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And since we're at it, what is H&A day?

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It is the chaos currently engulfing the Ship. And if I try to spell it out in full, I won't be allowed.



Wits, just like fools, at war about a name,
Have full as oft no meaning, or the same. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:17: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
C'mon, who else thought it was an H&A Day story gone viral?


Self-love and reason to one end aspire,
Pain their aversion, pleasure their desire; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:18: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And since we're at it, what is H&A day?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Could we please keep this thread free of this German army stuff?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
What will he become once he's stepped down?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
C'mon, who else thought it was an H&A Day story gone viral?

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Me

Read it here first, assumed it was a joke.

Still not completely convinced it isn't.

Modes of self-love the passions we may call:
'Tis real good, or seeming, moves them all: - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:21: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Drifting Star:
... With effect from Feb 28th. Seems very hurried.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
Though probably not Master of a Cambridge College.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
I wonder if holding the conclave during Lent will speed up the process?

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There will be pressure to have the new **** in office prior to the Easter celebrations. That said, I just checked and apparently it just took 17 days from the death of JPII to the election of BXVI.

The apparent reason for the timing of the announcement was that much of the College of ********s was present at that consistory. So BXVI sure kick-started the discussion effectively as well.

I've just read that he will not be participating in the conclave, BTW.

Passions, though selfish, if their means be fair,
List under reason, and deserve her care; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:23: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Dear Ken: vatican.va doesn't play H&A Days.

It's real.


Those, that imparted, court a nobler aim,
Exalt their kind, and take some virtue's name. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:24: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :
 
The Curia and the College of ********s are inessential to ******** doctrine, wouldn't it be great if the Synod of ******s took responsibility here and nominated the new +++Rome?

This could be well be an attempt by the Curia and +++BXVI to ensure that the new man will maintain the power of the Curia.

In lazy apathy let Stoics boast
Their virtue fix'd, 'tis fix'd as in a frost; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:25: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
For those of you who read German, a good article analysing the situation is here .

The interesting bit of it is the mentioning of the fact that (my translation) "this is an extremely hard job, and indeed it should not be based on a contract of stick-to-it-ness until the setting in of senility and eventual death, being reduced to a main "puppet-****" in the end years, for the simple reason that there appears to be a habit of -mostly Italian and South American- 'Cliques' of taking over the reins of power behind the effigy of an ailing, powerless ****. ******** XVI had no intention of ending as such a puppet".

Well said. What B XVI has done was an act of realism and humility.


Contracted all, retiring to the breast;
But strength of mind is exercise, not rest: - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:26: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by The Scrumpmeister (# 5638) on :
 
Avoiding the expression "snowball's chance in hell" in the answer, is there any canonical requirement for the occupant of the office to be chosen specifically from the Roman C******* church as opposed to one of the other C******* churches? I know that whoever it is will be the p*** of the Roman C******* church, but given the role of this position internationally, I wonder whether only members of that church would be considered.

The rising tempest puts in act the soul,
Parts it may ravage, but preserves the whole. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:27: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
Officially, any male, faithful Roman ******** can be elected ****. If he is not a ****** at the time of election, he will become one.

But in these days of political correctness, we RCs will be given a hard time for excluding Muslim women, of course...

On life's vast ocean diversely we sail,
Reason the card, but passion is the gale; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:28: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Someone's channeling the Daily Mail...


Nor God alone in the still calm we find,
He mounts the storm, and walks upon the wind. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:29: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
that being said, I wouldn't mind Rowan Williams or the Dalai Lama in the job...

Passions, like elements, though born to fight,
Yet, mix'd and soften'd, in his work unite: - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:29: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Here's a video of the **** reading off his resignation (in Latin) at the consistory: via CNS.

These 'tis enough to temper and employ;
But what composes man, can man destroy? - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:30: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :
 
It does seem awfully fast though. He'll be out in less than 20 days and will sit vacant until someone else is elected.

The ABC announced his retirement 9 months before it became effective, which seemed to give the church bureaucracy time to adapt and plan for a transition.

Suffice that reason keep to nature's road,
Subject, compound them, follow her and God. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:31: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
It does seem awfully fast though. He'll be out in less than 20 days and will sit vacant until someone else is elected.

The ABC announced his retirement 9 months before it became effective, which seemed to give the church bureaucracy time to adapt and plan for a transition.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
It does seem awfully fast though. He'll be out in less than 20 days and will sit vacant until someone else is elected.

The ABC announced his retirement 9 months before it became effective, which seemed to give the church bureaucracy time to adapt and plan for a transition.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Avoiding the expression "snowball's chance in hell" in the answer, is there any canonical requirement for the occupant of the office to be chosen specifically from the Roman C******* church as opposed to one of the other C******* churches?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I know that whoever it is will be the p*** of the Roman C******* church, but given the role of this position internationally, I wonder whether only members of that church would be considered.

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Yes, and while we are at it, as Eur***an I would like to elect the next POTUS. And as Mac user the CEO of Microsoft.

The lights and shades, whose well accorded strife
Gives all the strength and colour of our life. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:34: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Avoiding the expression "snowball's chance in hell" in the answer, is there any canonical requirement for the occupant of the office to be chosen specifically from the Roman C******* church as opposed to one of the other C******* churches? I know that whoever it is will be the p*** of the Roman C******* church, but given the role of this position internationally, I wonder whether only members of that church would be considered.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

But in these days of political correctness, we RCs will be given a hard time for excluding Muslim women, of course...

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One really doesn't have to travel even that far. Any woman at all, whatsoever would do. She certainly doesn't have to be Muslim. Merely a 'she'! (I mean in terms of exclusion, not in order to be ****!)

FWIW, it seems a sensible thing for **** ******** to do. And it must've been incredibly difficult for him - even assuming he felt it was right. Expectations, pressures, precedent etc must've weighed heavily. He would've been very alive to the effect on the ******** world, so there is - I think - a lot of courage in the decision, too.

I heard one commentator remark that it was a typically self-effacing and humble path to go down. Which for a **** must be difficult, in terms of profile and responsibility.

Present to grasp, and future still to find,
The whole employ of body and of mind. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:36: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:
I can see nothing that forbids it.

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quote:

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Can. 332 §1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the Church by his acceptance of legitimate election together with episcopal consecration. Therefore, a person elected to the supreme pontificate who is marked with episcopal character obtains this power from the moment of acceptance. If the person elected lacks episcopal character, however, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

Can. 844 §1. C******* ministers administer the sacraments licitly to C******* members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from C******* ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

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quote:

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"He suffered a lot under certain things that were part of his role. It is hard to imagine what intrigues he had to deal with in Rome. It burdened him because he is a theologian and noble person.

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quote:

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Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
I see Richard Dawkins is taking the opportunity to be a jerk.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thurible:
Ingo, the Scrumpmeister might be Orthodox, and I might be A*******, but I think you should take it as read that we were both referring to those particular churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome...

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quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

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Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
I see Richard Dawkins is taking the opportunity to be a jerk.

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Confirms himself as a 24-carat twat.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
This could be well be an attempt by the Curia and +++BXVI to ensure that the new man will maintain the power of the Curia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by passer:
Interesting take on events from that nice Andrew Brown in the Graun.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

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Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
I see Richard Dawkins is taking the opportunity to be a jerk.

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Confirms himself as a 24-carat twat.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
This could be well be an attempt by the Curia and +++BXVI to ensure that the new man will maintain the power of the Curia.

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Don't make me laugh. Firstly, the Curia aren't anywhere near organised enough to pull that off, second there aren't enough of them to have power (if they had it wouldn't have taken six years to deal with that poisonous heretic Flannery) and third this news was kept so close that neither the prefect of the CDF or the Congregation of ******s knew.

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'Tis hers to rectify, not overthrow,
And treat this passion more as friend than foe: - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:57: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :
 
This is a suprise and I am unsure if it had ever happened before. To my mind the papal egien is like that of the Queen of England, you don't abdicate.
Having said I think it is right to decide to retire .After all he has had decades in church service as ******, c******* and p***. I h*** he has a nice watm place to retire to.
For the college of c*******s . Let's get it right and that before Easter.

A mightier pow'r the strong direction sends,
And sev'ral men impels to sev'ral ends. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 22:59: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by shoewoman (# 1618) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
I would have thought he'd seek retirement in a monastery in South Germany.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
This could be well be an attempt by the Curia and +++BXVI to ensure that the new man will maintain the power of the Curia.

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Don't make me laugh. Firstly, the Curia aren't anywhere near organised enough to pull that off, second there aren't enough of them to have power (if they had it wouldn't have taken six years to deal with that poisonous heretic Flannery) and third this news was kept so close that neither the prefect of the CDF or the Congregation of ******s knew.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
This could be well be an attempt by the Curia and +++BXVI to ensure that the new man will maintain the power of the Curia.

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Don't make me laugh. Firstly, the Curia aren't anywhere near organised enough to pull that off, second there aren't enough of them to have power (if they had it wouldn't have taken six years to deal with that poisonous heretic Flannery) and third this news was kept so close that neither the prefect of the CDF or the Congregation of ******s knew.

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I'd consider the late "Fr." Brendan Smyth poisonous, both in what he did to children and young people, and in the binding to secrecy by the institutional church of the same children that resulted. Challenges to the concept of apostolic succession are not exactly at the same level of evil. Anyway apart from that I do wish +++BXVI well in his retirement and h*** that the very human institution of the C******* Church will have the grace of Holy Wisdom to choose a successor.

“Even if a snake is not poisonous, it should pretend to be venomous.”

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What's the C******* equivalent of Godwin's Law?

Let pow'r or knowledge, gold or glory, please,
Or (oft more strong than all) the love of ease; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 23:01: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by CL:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
This could be well be an attempt by the Curia and +++BXVI to ensure that the new man will maintain the power of the Curia.

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Don't make me laugh. Firstly, the Curia aren't anywhere near organised enough to pull that off, second there aren't enough of them to have power (if they had it wouldn't have taken six years to deal with that poisonous heretic Flannery) and third this news was kept so close that neither the prefect of the CDF or the Congregation of ******s knew.

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I'd consider the late "Fr." Brendan Smyth poisonous, both in what he did to children and young people, and in the binding to secrecy by the institutional church of the same children that resulted. Challenges to the concept of apostolic succession are not exactly at the same level of evil. Anyway apart from that I do wish +++BXVI well in his retirement and h*** that the very human institution of the C******* Church will have the grace of Holy Wisdom to choose a successor.

“Even if a snake is not poisonous, it should pretend to be venomous.”

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What's the C******* equivalent of Godwin's Law?

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quote:

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Originally posted by passer:
Interesting take on events from that nice Andrew Brown in the Graun.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
Five dollars says the next bloke in the ruby slippers is Italian.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:

quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy:
Five dollars says the next bloke in the ruby slippers is Italian.

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As remarked elsewhere think that is a safe bet. Pity the Arch****** of Milan that really mattered didn't get the opportunity..

---

Pity there wasn't a reform of the election system beforehand! At the very least, it would be nice to see priests (actual ones, not cardinal-priests), deacons, acolytes, lectors, catechists, and the religious have a say. Putting it all into the hands of the former officeholder (courtesy of his appointments) seems a bit questionable.

For him and for the Catholic faithful.

As fruits, ungrateful to the planter's care,
On savage stocks inserted, learn to bear; - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 23:06: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by shameless (# 9918) on :
 
Unbelievable. But we do h*** his predecessor is from Asia or africa.

The surest virtues thus from passions shoot,
Wild nature's vigor working at the root. - Alexander P***

[ 11. February 2013, 23:07: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :
 
I don't get where this enthusiasm for an African/Asian p*** comes from. Anyone from those places is likely to be significantly more socially conservative and significantly worse liturgically.

That said the single worst high-profile candidate I can think of is Oscar Rodriguez; a self-promoting relic of Liberation theology. Schoenborn, Tagle, the other Latin Americans and all the Italians bar Scola and Bagnasco are tied for second worst.

Regardless of who gets it, one of the positives of having the quondam of Rome still around is that his successor will find himself pretty much bound to follow the same general course of this pontificate.

What crops of wit and honesty appear
From spleen, from obstinacy, hate, or fear! - Alexander P***

[ 12. February 2013, 00:30: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
CL, have you read this ?

Doublethink
Purgatory H o s t
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Gawd CL you sound so A n g l i c a n with your posturing and division of people into goodies (those who agree with meeeeeeee) and baddies (all the others).

See anger, zeal and fortitude supply;
Ev'n av'rice, prudence; sloth, philosophy; - Alexander P***

[ 12. February 2013, 07:18: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I've just read that he will not be participating in the conclave, BTW.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:


I'm hoping for a really extraordinary outcome in which the Holy Spirit proves His mettle and ++KJC is elevated to the throne of Peter. From God's mouth to the collective ears of those tiresome old men in their scarlet dresses and lace who will be convening in the Sistine Chapel.

That sees immediate good by present sense;
Reason, the future and the consequence. - Alexander P***

---

I don't think an agnostic humanist would be helpful

Envy, to which th' ignoble mind's a slave,
Is emulation in the learn'd or brave; - Alexander P***

[ 12. February 2013, 07:23: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :
 
Still in shock at the news. I agree with Desert Daughter on the 'realism and humility' behind this abdication or resignation -- thanks for the German link.

Came to the SOF hoping for something enlightening, sane and insightful on the topic, found that the site has gone crazy. ****

Nor virtue, male or female, can we name,
But what will grow on pride, or grow on shame. - Alexander P***

[ 12. February 2013, 07:24: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by Solly (# 11919) on :
 
Perhaps he has been diagnosed with dementia in which case it makes sense to retire early. I **** that this lovely and holy man enjoys a peaceful retirement.

Thus nature gives us (let it check our pride)
The virtue nearest to our vice allied: - Alexander P***

[ 12. February 2013, 07:25: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
He's too old (by five years) to vote for the next p***.

---

quote:

---

V, lxxiii

Non donem tibi cur meos libellos
oranti totiens et exigenti
miraris, Theodore? Magna causa est:
dones tu mihi ne tuos libellos.

You wonder, Theodorus, why I don't give my little books
to you, begging and so often demanding?
I've got a great reason:
So that you don't send me your books.

---

(re the epigram)
 

---

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
I really do have a lot of time for Buddhist-Chr*st!an dialogue because I feel there is a lot to have a dialogue about, but proposing the Dalai Lama for the ***n job in question was a joke, dear.

He for one cannot resign...he is Chenrezig, and will forever incarnate -as long as there is suffering.

[ 12. February 2013, 11:43: Message buggered about with by: Desert Daughter ]
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
{Tangent}

DD--

Yes, I do know it was a joke! I was half-joking.

Actually, he's said he's more of a manifestation of the bodhisattva (Avaloketishvara??) than an incarnation. And it's been said that if he weren't the Dalai Lama, he'd be considered a heretic.

Plus he's said that he'll resign if anyone tries a violent revolution against the Chinese.


Epigram:

What is mind? Never matter.
What is matter? Never mind.
What is the soul? It is immaterial.

--Hood
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Gawd CL you sound so A n g l i c a n with your posturing and division of people into goodies (those who agree with meeeeeeee) and baddies (all the others).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
I know that whoever it is will be the p*** of the Roman C******* church, but given the role of this position internationally, I wonder whether only members of that church would be considered.

---

Yes, and while we are at it, as Eur***an I would like to elect the next POTUS.

---

I rolled my eyes at The Scrumpmeister's post as well, but admit it, we might all be better off if the EU elected the next POTUS, given some of the choices Americans have made.

I was surprised to hear that BXVI* plans to take up residence in a vacant convent in the Vatican. Seems to me like it would be a bit awkward for the next occupant of Peter's See to have his predecessor so close by. Any ideas as to why he's not retiring to somewhere in Germany?

It's very interesting that this very orthodox upholder of church traditions has done something unprecedented in the modern history of the church. I read in the paper this morning that several years ago BXVI visited the tomb of Celestine V and left a garment there. Does anyone know what the garment was? And what the significance of leaving a garment is, as opposed to something like a wreath or flowers?

*No disrespect intended -- merely avoiding the H&A Day censors.
 

---

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Gawd CL you sound so A n g l i c a n with your posturing and division of people into goodies (those who agree with meeeeeeee) and baddies (all the others).

See anger, zeal and fortitude supply;
Ev'n av'rice, prudence; sloth, philosophy; - Alexander P***

---

I think we know better than to fall for the idea that RCs are not capable of being just as nasty, narrow and pissy as every one else...
 

---

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
@RuthW:

Yes, that is now -with hindsight- widely interpreted as a gesture (and Bénèdik# is not a man of vain gestures) of respect and, possibly, deep understanding of Coelestin's dilemma and decision (who was a hermit pushed against his will onto the P@p@l throne and, horror of horrors for any introvert, into the a management position and the limelights). A meeting of kindred spirits, possibly. Not that B. was at the time actually considering resigning, but he had always left it as a realistic option; he said so in 2009 or -10 in an interview with the German journalist Peter Seewald

I find his decision courageous, moving, wise, and it is his way of short-circuiting all those flunkeys waiting for him to grow old and weak to use him as a puppet behind which they can then do their mostly rather unholy business. B. witnessed what happened around Jaypee Two (sorry...)when the latter was ailing.

It just breaks my heart to think how cruel these past months, and the destruction of his privacy, must have been for this kind, sensitive, and very lonely old man.

Nunc dimittis...
...indeed.

[ 12. February 2013, 16:35: Message buggered about with by: Desert Daughter ]
 

---

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
@ Ruth W (again):

the garment in questium was a pallium (see here ), given to him wen he became (insert term for highest c******* clerical position here - are these *****s ever going to stop this? Or have they already?? ).

Anyway, it does indeed carry some weight as a gesture.

As to why he won't go back to Germany, well, possibly because there is no suitable monastery in the South (and he's Bavarian- he'd never consider going to the North, which is like another country...), it has been said that when he was still a C******* he'd always considered retirement in Italy.

Another reason is that the convent in question is actually a very touching (and as I understand fairly recently established) institution: a convent of cloistered contemplatives (Carmelites, I believe) whose "job" it is to uphold permanent ****er within the walls of the Vatican. B. joining them, joining his ****er with theirs, would be another beautiful gesture.
 

---

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :
 
It is, as some shipmates have remarked, particularly noteworthy that he has chosen to discuss his resignation, not with his 'aides', but with his close family. Presumably his successor will chose his own personal aides, hence the reason for BXVI's courtiers' surprise, as in 'How could you do this to us, you bastard?'

Nevertheless, I think the resignation will materially change the role of the episcopus of the Eternal City: no longer is it a role unto death, a human being becomming almost divine and unreachable. Instead, it is back to being a job, a garment which is worn for a while, then taken off. The demi-god is an ordinary human again.

As Martial himself said, in his beloved Latin:

"Tongilianus habet nasum, scio, non nego. Sed iam
Nil praeter nasum Tongilianus habet."

[ 12. February 2013, 17:03: Message buggered about with by: Holy Smoke ]
 

---

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :
 
No-one ever considered the p0µe "almost divine", let alone a "demi-g0d". That is a gross misinterpretation.

And for info, C@n0n L@w has always contained a proviso for the resignation of a P0ntiféks Maksimùs.

So it might be a FIrst in 600 years, but it is not, in a sense, such a "big deal".

I am a bit appalled by the mixture of lack of respect (OK, fine, that is a fact of life in our beautiful postmodern world) plus (and that's where this lack turns into silliness) lack of information.

Come in, cut us C@tt0licks some slack and respect our ways.

[ 12. February 2013, 17:14: Message buggered about with by: Desert Daughter ]
 

---

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
If your wit doesn't run to humour at this time - perhaps you can manage beautifully apposite quote from a previous holy father or one of the orthodox saint.

Don't tell me St John Chrysostom never said anything worth quoting ...
 

---

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
No-one ever considered the p0µe "almost divine", let alone a "demi-g0d". That is a gross misinterpretation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Garasu:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
No-one ever considered the p0µe "almost divine", let alone a "demi-g0d". That is a gross misinterpretation.

---

Like the distinction between hyperdulia and dulia, I think you have to accept that reality on the ground may not have followed the theory...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trisagion:
Altria and hyperdulia but then you were in too much of a rush to spot the mote to actually check that you knew what you were talking about, eh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:
If your wit doesn't run to humour at this time ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
No-one ever considered the p0µe "almost divine", let alone a "demi-g0d". That is a gross misinterpretation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:
John Whaley translation: Weak curds who treads / Firms not, but spreads. - DT

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trisagion:
Altria and hyperdulia but then you were in too much of a rush to spot the mote to actually check that you knew what you were talking about, eh?

---

Latria, even.

---

A beautiful example of Morgan's Law: anyone pompous enough to correct someone else on the Internet will make a small error that draws attention to their self-importance.


[“Only lies offend me, never honest counsel.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Storm of Swords]

[ 13. February 2013, 07:37: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 

---

Posted by trouty (# 13497) on :
 
If you want to know why the Pope resigned, just take a look at the crowd at Celtic Park last night - abortion, contraception and gay marriage all justified with one camera shot
 

---

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And for info, C@n0n L@w has always contained a proviso for the resignation of a P0ntiféks Maksimùs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?

---

quote:

---

Let's hope he doesn't retire to a kindergarten. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Yes, it apparently is. I had first thought the Carmelites were still there, but it seems the site is empty; in the German press it was described as a building with 12 monastic cells upstairs and kitchen/library/meeting rooms downstairs, plus gardens.

In any case, he has my deep respect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hawk:
Personally I'd have more respect for him if he hadn't kicked all the nuns out so he could live in their house by himself for free. The site is empty because the nuns were given advance warning to sling their hook last November.

---

quote:

---

Benedictine nuns will take over the Vatican's Mater Ecclesiae convent this week, a house occupied over the past five years by Carmelites praying for the Pope and the Roman Curia...

<snip>

...This convent of contemplative nuns in the Vatican was founded by John Paul II in 1994, to enrich the Curia with the presence and prayer of nuns totally dedicated to contemplation.

By indication of the Pope himself, the community of the convent changes every five years, the period of duration of an assignment in the Curia.

In 1994 the convent was animated by a community of Poor Clares. The present community of Carmelites, who come from several countries, arrived in the Vatican in September 1999. The Benedictines will take over this Friday.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Yes, it apparently is. I had first thought the Carmelites were still there, but it seems the site is empty; in the German press it was described as a building with 12 monastic cells upstairs and kitchen/library/meeting rooms downstairs, plus gardens.

In any case, he has my deep respect.

---

Personally I'd have more respect for him if he hadn't kicked all the nuns out so he could live in their house by himself for free. The site is empty because the nuns were given advance warning to sling their hook last November.

The monastic life IMO is one of community, as well as peaceful reflection and prayer. Instead of joining an existing community and living a simple life far from the trappings of the world, he'll continue to live as royalty, at the heart of the Vatican, with an army of servants providing everything he wants for the rest of his life. He'll get all of the perks of being pope with none of the responsibilites. Sounds like a cushy number to me.

---

 

---

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hawk:
Personally I'd have more respect for him if he hadn't kicked all the nuns out so he could live in their house by himself for free. The site is empty because the nuns were given advance warning to sling their hook last November.

---

There's got to be more to the the story than this.
...So the community of nuns changes every five years, regardless. It began with a group of Poor Clares, then there were Carmelites, followed by Benedictines. Most recently it was Carmelites again. Everything I've heard so far about the building is that it's being renovated which might explain why it's currently empty.

---

• a pope is always going to be an assassination target - so he would have to retire to some sort of securable location.
• The monastic house was set up specifically to support the papacy.
• we do not know what the renovations are, it may mean effectively including a bedsit into the building and the nuns may return as well as the ex-pope
• *if* the pope discussed it with the nuns in October, they may have been asked what they thought, there must be considerable trust between them and him - given he didn't tell his closest advisors
• he is a seriously ill 85yr old man, maybe the nuns will nurse him (this is not 'living like a king' - many seriously ill 85yr old men require residential care)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:

• he is a seriously ill 85yr old man, maybe the nuns will nurse him (this is not 'living like a king' - many seriously ill 85yr old men require residential care)

---

• Pope (after all a retired priest is still a priest)
• The Sleeping Shepherd
• Pontifex Redux
• Pontifex Emeritus

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
To be fair, the pope is a king, at least in functional terms. He's the absolute monarch of Vatican City. So why not live like one, even after retirement? Sort of like a queen-mother.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:
Now titles are a interesting question:

• Pope (after all a retired priest is still a priest)
• The Sleeping Shepherd
• Pontifex Redux
• Pontifex Emeritus

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
To be fair, the pope is a king, at least in functional terms. He's the absolute monarch of Vatican City. So why not live like one, even after retirement? Sort of like a queen-mother, except being a "pope-father" is a linguistic redundancy on multiple levels.

---

Very useful! I'm liking "pope-mother", which lends itself to such helpful nontraditional images and rather good profanity. -- The pope as Capitoline Wolf, except that either it is the next pope he suckles, or an expanded group of cardinals.
 

---

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
If he is to retain his own name, then the Holy Father remains a cardinal - a retired cardinal. Given some of the recent pictures I have seen, I doubt very much that this will be a long-term issue for him. I offer a prayer for his intentions.


 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic":

quote:

---

Just to clarify that Benedict XVI will not go back to the College of Cardinals on February 28 but will become Mons. Ratzinger. He vacated the cardinal bishopric of Ostia when he became pope and this title is filled. A cardinal must have a Roman title, whether as a cardinal deacon, cardinal priest, or cardinal bishop. There is no such thing as a roving cardinal without such a title since a cardinal is a member of the Roman clergy, which gives him the right to participate in conclaves to elect his bishop. I suspect, however, that one of the first acts of the new pope will be to create the former pontiff a cardinal. This is by no means certain, nor is the acceptance of the (re)elevation to the Purple.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trouty:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
If he retires to a convent, won't he be a temptation to sin for all the nuns?

---

Let's hope he doesn't retire to a kindergarten.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
All this horse trading and politics, then at the end of it all there will be a new Pope. It will be claimed as Holy Spirit led and God's will. Why?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB
Well, the RCC is the Church. The one against which the gates of hell will not prevail.

---

quote:

---

The only Divine guarantee is that no pope will be allowed to irreparably wreck the RCC by imposing false dogma irrevocably.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
If he is to retain his own name, then the Holy Father remains a cardinal - a retired cardinal. Given some of the recent pictures I have seen, I doubt very much that this will be a long-term issue for him. I offer a prayer for his intentions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
All this horse trading and politics, then at the end of it all there will be a new Pope. It will be claimed as Holy Spirit led and God's will. Why?

---

Well, the RCC is the Church. The one against which the gates of hell will not prevail. The one governed by the successors of the Apostles, and the successor of the Prince of Apostles in particular, to all of whom the Holy Spirit was sent for assistance. Etc. So it is a fair bet that God is keeping a close eye on proceedings.

That said, the RCC does not claim that the selection of popes proceeds according to the will of God in a simplistic manner. Neither does she claim that popes are continuously inspired by the Holy Spirit. Whatever you may think of recent popes, there sure as hell have been worse, a lot worse. And no Divine guarantee exists that we won't get another Alexander VI, or indeed someone who makes the Borgia pope look good. The only Divine guarantee is that no pope will be allowed to irreparably wreck the RCC by imposing false dogma irrevocably. That's not much of a guarantee, really...

I think the RCC has had a rather good run with her popes of late. I pray that this may continue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
If he is to retain his own name, then the Holy Father remains a cardinal - a retired cardinal. Given some of the recent pictures I have seen, I doubt very much that this will be a long-term issue for him. I offer a prayer for his intentions.

---

Indeed. He looked really very frail at the Ash Wednesday Mass last night.

An Ecclesiantics question, perhaps, but, given that papal requiems are in red, do we anticipate that his (which, please God, will be some years hence) will be too?

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
If it means nothing more than the evil one will not succeed in completely destroying this organisation, then that is certainly true of many other denominations, which have survived through the centuries through thick and thin. Therefore, they must also qualify as the Church, since they enjoy at least the same measure of spiritual protection as the RCC.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
"Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in their midst" seems to me to be a pretty easy condition to fulfil, to qualify as 'church'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

---

The only Divine guarantee is that no pope will be allowed to irreparably wreck the RCC by imposing false dogma irrevocably.

---

That seems to imply that all "the Church" is good for is to establish dogma, which is a far cry from the living and holy temple being built by all the saints (in the correct biblical definition of 'saints') for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit (Eph. 2:19-22).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Whatever you may think of recent popes, there sure as hell have been worse, a lot worse. And no Divine guarantee exists that we won't get another Alexander VI, or indeed someone who makes the Borgia pope look good.

---

quote:

---

• They [the Borgias] were Spaniards, and the Italians hated that, so all possible tensions were hyper-inflamed.
• Instead of the usual graft and simony, they tried to permanently carve out a personal Borgia duchy in the middle of Italy, and when that was going well, they tried to turn the papacy into a hereditary monarchy.
• They very nearly succeeded.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
FSo maybe there will not be a Cardinal Emeritus Ratzinger.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crœsos:
For a 'once over lightly' version, told with some humor, of why Alexander VI "was a very very, very very, very, very bad pope", click the link.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
FSo maybe there will not be a Cardinal Emeritus Ratzinger.

---

as far as I understand, once a Cardinal becomes Pope he loses the status of Cardinal. So, Joseph Ratzinger, upon relinquishing is position as Pope, will be officially considered a Bishop. It is of course entirely possible for the next Pope to confer the dignity of a Cardinal upon him again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic"...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tallis Acres:
I wonder whether those of you here that seem to resent the retirement living conditions of Benedict will feel ashamed if it is revealed that he is dying.

I would like to think so,

---

quote:

---

perhaps people are beginning to wonder whether Benedict XVI in particular, and indeed Benedict's predecessors were human all along,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, the RCC is the Church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
One of the things about the retiring Pope, whatever the theoretical position, is that he seemed very ready to acknowledge churches of other Christian denominaitons as churches, in a way that previous Popes didn't quite. Lets hope things carry on moving that way. (Wouldn't bet on it though)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
If he is to retain his own name, then the Holy Father remains a cardinal - a retired cardinal. Given some of the recent pictures I have seen, I doubt very much that this will be a long-term issue for him. I offer a prayer for his intentions.

---

Indeed. He looked really very frail at the Ash Wednesday Mass last night.

An Ecclesiantics question, perhaps, but, given that papal requiems are in red, do we anticipate that his (which, please God, will be some years hence) will be too?

Thurible

---

I hope and imagine that the funeral would be no different from if he had died in office, with the sole exception that the new Pope himself would almost certainly celebrate it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm not of his ecclesial community, but I've been very impressed with the calibre of some of his encyclicals. I'd particularly commend Spe Salvi. I wish him well in his retirement and for having the guts to break with 600 years of bad habits for the good of the church and avoiding a possible long period with a sick man roped to the helm but not actually able to steer.

I'd like to think of him being fussed over by some nice caring nuns. He deserves it. I think ill of those who begrudge him this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.

---

quote:

---

You have obviously never read this book.

The thought of this great mind is always far more nuanced than the soundbite commentators (I don't mean you Zach)

---

You saying I'm not a great mind?

Ironically, since Benedict is an Augustinian I tend to very much like his theology. But, God help me, the Anglican Ordinariates sure make it look like he can't be bothered with the Anglican Communion anymore.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
You could look at it differently - he sees such value in Anglicanism and its spiritual heritage that he has created space for that heritage within the Catholic Church. That's a validation of the Anglican tradition, if not of Anglican politics.
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You have obviously never read this book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You could look at it differently - he sees such value in Anglicanism and its spiritual heritage that he has created space for that heritage within the Catholic Church. That's a validation of the Anglican tradition, if not of Anglican politics.

---

quote:

---

I would like first of all to express my sadness and disappointment at the fact that public reaction, with a few praiseworthy exceptions, has completely disregarded the Declaration's true theme... The ecclesiological and ecumenical issues of which everyone is now speaking occupy only a small part of the document...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You have obviously never read this book.

---

I haven't either. But I do know that Dominus Iesus effectively stopped dead the unreasonably high hopes raised by the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. And here is an interview with Cardinal Ratzinger on that very document. One finds therein rather clear words on the status of Protestant churches.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
BXVI's three visits to Germany were not noted for any particularly striking ecumenical activities as far as the Lutherans there were concerned. And of course we also had yet another clarification on the status of Reformation churches in this pontificate, here (see question 5). I don't think that BXVI has been an enemy of Protestants by any means. But he hasn't been a great friend either.

---

Well, I suppose addressing the Council of the Evangelical Church in Erfurt in 2011, in the former Augustinian monastery where Luther studied theology and celebrated his first Mass, and in that address basing his words on issues that were important to Luther is not really striking. Or his attendance at an ecumenical prayer service there (you can watch the video here.)There he said some interesting things ( full text here). These things are now rather routine rather than striking. He alludes to the expectation of something striking in that second address.

However, these do not suggest he regards protestant merely as irritating irrelevances.

But if you are simply seeking a stark affirmation of protestant churches - well, that's not the position of the Catholic Church is it?
 

---

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
I don't want to give you the wrong idea, TT. I am not trying to say he was a bad guy or even a bad pope. I am only saying that, as an Anglican, I have not really been feeling the love. And I assure you, I have no expectation of anything as extravagant as an unqualified affirmation of Anglicanism.

[ 15. February 2013, 00:05: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Heheh no worries - I wasn't trying to defend him against an Anglican affront

I'm just trying to make the point that his thinking is usually much more nuanced than at first appears. He really does repay reading in full. There are real treasures to be mined in all sorts of areas. His treatment on the atonement and the sacrifice of the Cross (in his Introduction to Christianity) is one for which I will always be indebted.
 

---

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
I'll check the book out. Like I said, once I get past his ecclesiology, I actually like his theology.
 

---

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic":

quote:

---

Just to clarify that Benedict XVI will not go back to the College of Cardinals on February 28 but will become Mons. Ratzinger. He vacated the cardinal bishopric of Ostia when he became pope and this title is filled. A cardinal must have a Roman title, whether as a cardinal deacon, cardinal priest, or cardinal bishop. There is no such thing as a roving cardinal without such a title since a cardinal is a member of the Roman clergy, which gives him the right to participate in conclaves to elect his bishop. I suspect, however, that one of the first acts of the new pope will be to create the former pontiff a cardinal. This is by no means certain, nor is the acceptance of the (re)elevation to the Purple.

---

So maybe there will not be a Cardinal Emeritus Ratzinger.

In other news, time is up for the SSPX. I predicted above that the SSPX would rue not having closed a deal with BXVI, but I'm surprised that a divide et impera (divide and rule) decree against them will be pretty much the last act of governance of BXVI. He must be not pleased, really not pleased... or he's just being old-fashioned German and has decided to leave his successor with as clean a desk as he can manage.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Well, you ought to read it if you wish to understand his thought about Christians of other confessions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
There is a wide gap between that and simply dismissing other Christians as "an irritating waste of time".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Well, I suppose addressing the Council of the Evangelical Church in Erfurt in 2011, in the former Augustinian monastery where Luther studied theology and celebrated his first Mass, and in that address basing his words on issues that were important to Luther is not really striking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Or his attendance at an ecumenical prayer service there (you can watch the video here.)There he said some interesting things ( full text here). These things are now rather routine rather than striking. He alludes to the expectation of something striking in that second address.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
But if you are simply seeking a stark affirmation of protestant churches - well, that's not the position of the Catholic Church is it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic"...

---

Reading some of the other comments, it's quite astonishing just how much hostility there is towards the Pope's decision, which only goes to support the contention that his publically sudden but privately carefully considered resignation - I see the Catholic Herald is calling it an 'abdication', which surely must invoke some rather unfortunate comparisons with King Edward VIII's abdication - does represent a significant event and a significant change in the role of the papacy in the Roman Church. As I suggested, now he is back to being plain old Joe Ratzinger, perhaps people are beginning to wonder whether Benedict XVI in particular, and indeed Benedict's predecessors were human all along, and just pretending to be something more. A good thing, at any rate, methinks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CL:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
FWIW, I repeat here a comment from "cufflinkcatholic"...

---

Reading some of the other comments, it's quite astonishing just how much hostility there is towards the Pope's decision, which only goes to support the contention that his publically sudden but privately carefully considered resignation - I see the Catholic Herald is calling it an 'abdication', which surely must invoke some rather unfortunate comparisons with King Edward VIII's abdication - does represent a significant event and a significant change in the role of the papacy in the Roman Church. As I suggested, now he is back to being plain old Joe Ratzinger, perhaps people are beginning to wonder whether Benedict XVI in particular, and indeed Benedict's predecessors were human all along, and just pretending to be something more. A good thing, at any rate, methinks.

---

He did abdicate. That is the correct verb when a monarch gives up their throne before death. Resignation is a stupid word to use as a resignation entails acceptance by another party.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I rather got the impression that Benedict considered Protestants an irritating waste of his time.

---

I got the impression that he was the most Protestant-friendly Pope ever. And I got that before he was Pope, when I read some of his writings about priesthood and ministry.

That doesn't mean I think he thinks that a Protestant priest or bishop is automatically the same thing as a Catholic one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I can't vouch for what the correct verb might be, but Canon 332, section 2 calls it resignation, and specifically says acceptance by another party has got nothing to do with it.

---

CL is possibly confusing the office of Pope with that of Holy Roman Emperor.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I think there are many in the Curia who bitterly regret this happening:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I think there are many in the Curia who bitterly regret this happening:

---

Do you actually know anyone in the Curia? Have you ever been near it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I can't vouch for what the correct verb might be, but Canon 332, section 2 calls it resignation, and specifically says acceptance by another party has got nothing to do with it.

---

CL is possibly confusing the office of Pope with that of Holy Roman Emperor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronald Binge:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I think there are many in the Curia who bitterly regret this happening:

---

Do you actually know anyone in the Curia? Have you ever been near it?

---

Oh right Father TT. Thanks for reminding me that I have no right to a public opinion on the governance and policies of the Church that I belong to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Is there any chance that those who run the Church could bear in mind that our human lives are finite and that trusting to eternity to solve apparently intractable problems such as ecumenism and some of the ex-Nags having a canter may not be such a good strategy after all?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
I got the impression that he was the most Protestant-friendly Pope ever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Is there any chance that those who run the Church could bear in mind that our human lives are finite and that trusting to eternity to solve apparently intractable problems such as ecumenism and some of the ex-Nags having a canter may not be such a good strategy after all?

---

But this presumes that the Church's teachings on these ex-Nags are wrong and should be changed. Is there a chance that those who run the Church disagree with you? I certainly do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I wasn't actually saying you can't have an opinion on the governance of the Church, RB. I was asking if you had first-hand evidence upon which to base your opinion. The way you create a bogeyman out of the Curia suggests to me you have no knowledge of either the Curia or anyone who actually works in it.

I have a lot of opinions about the Curia, btw, not all of them positive!! One of the finest men there, imo, is an Irishman, Mgr Paul Tighe. It cannot be long before he is a bishop. One of the creepiest, most unpleasant specimens I have encountered happens also to be an Irishman, by co-incidence. Thankfully he seems to have moved on. My point is there are very fine people working in the Curia, as well as some rather unpleasant ones - as anywhere. But they are all motivated by a desire to serve the Church. A priest of my own diocese works very closely with the Holy Father, based in the Secretariat of State and I stand in great admiration for him. So to set the Curia up as some malignant, evil force intent on thwarting true progress is a terrible parody.

I'm afraid your own list of necessary changes or developments are dooming you to an endless frustration and unhappiness. That's not because of the malignant Curia, but because your expectations are unreal. The Curia is not akin to a political party's policy office. Those things you want are just not on their radar.

I think the Curia is in need of a massive restructuring and some joined-up thinking between the various dicasteries. As it is, I think they are like a collection of medieval Italian duchies, all doing their own thing. Contrary to fletcher christian's jest, they need a tighter rein.

Here is Mgr Tighe again, talking about the dicastery of which he is Secretary and how it seeks to serve the worldwide Church.

But I suspect you mean the CDF, whose job it is to promote the doctrine of the Church and to challenge those who promote contrary doctrines. I'm afraid, they're simply doing their job .....

---

quote:

---

There is no Cardinal Martini this time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Well, I would be the first to put my hands up and admit that I was wrong in anything that I say or do - but my personal view, and stress that it is my personal view, is that I do not believe that the sense of the faithful has been adequately received on some issues.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
I do of course retain a thoroughgoing belief in miracles and the Holy Wisdom may well flow in unexpected ways.. unless we get a Pius XIII.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
It is an interesting matter, this power of the name that the pope chooses. Indeed, many a traditionalist prays fervently for another Pius. Perhaps a Gregory XVII would be more appropriate...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CL:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

---

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CL:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

---

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CL:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

---

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.

---

Indeed. Those of the Vatican II sort forget that Pope JOhn was the author of "Veterum Sapientiae" and was quite "conservative" on many matters. How the Liturgy was debased in the application after the Council would have horrified him for instance

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
So I wonder if every cardinal going into the conclave thinks about what name they'd choose. I don't really see that at all. So the new pope just has to think quickly?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:


The Blessed John XXIII, I suspect, would be more open to collegiality and dissent. I suspect he would be quite conservative on some matters, but he would not silence Hans Kung, and even though he might find Matthew Fox a bit "unique", I suspect Fox would still be in the RCC fold.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CL:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some might prefer a John XXIV.

---

Probably those with a totally false impression (wilfully or not) of John XXIII.

---

Indeed. Those of the Vatican II sort forget that Pope JOhn was the author of "Veterum Sapientiae" and was quite "conservative" on many matters. How the Liturgy was debased in the application after the Council would have horrified him for instance

---

quote:

---

Since "every Church must assemble round the Roman Church,"8 and since the Supreme Pontiffs have "true episcopal power, ordinary and immediate, over each and every Church and each and every Pastor, as well as over the faithful"9 of every rite and language, it seems particularly desirable that the instrument of mutual communication be uniform and universal, especially between the Apostolic See and the Churches which use the same Latin rite.

When, therefore, the Roman Pontiffs wish to instruct the Catholic world, or when the Congregations of the Roman Curia handle matters or draw up decrees which concern the whole body of the faithful, they invariably make use of Latin, for this is a maternal voice acceptable to countless nations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:


The Blessed John XXIII, I suspect, would be more open to collegiality and dissent. I suspect he would be quite conservative on some matters, but he would not silence Hans Kung, and even though he might find Matthew Fox a bit "unique", I suspect Fox would still be in the RCC fold.

---

I don't know about that. It was during his pontificate that the Holy Office "monitum " was issued against Teilhard de Chardin
It was easier treatment then under Pius XII. And Chardin was mild compared to the likes of Kung and Fox

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
One of the finest men there, imo, is an Irishman, Mgr Paul Tighe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I think the Curia is in need of a massive restructuring and some joined-up thinking between the various dicasteries. As it is, I think they are like a collection of medieval Italian duchies, all doing their own thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
The Reuters news network has an interesting article: Pope Will Have Security,Immunity By Remaining In The Vatican.

I'd been wondering if that was a factor. (And if we can't avoid the Dead Horse of abuse by clergy, we can start a DH thread. But I think there's room for discussing how/whether the legal logistics are affecting his decision to stay in the Vatican.)

---

quote:

---

Another consideration was that if the pope did move permanently to another country, living in seclusion in a monastery in his native Germany, for example, the location might become a place of pilgrimage.

---

... and tourism of course. 1000s visit the Vatican for this purpose.
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Yes, that, too. It surprised me when I read the article, because I hadn't thought of that. And I suppose some folks might decide that HE is still the true pope, which could trigger another schismatic mess.

 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
And if we can't avoid the Dead Horse of abuse by clergy, we can start a DH thread.

---

quote:

---

According to La Repubblica, the dossier comprising "two volumes of almost 300 pages – bound in red" had been consigned to a safe in the papal apartments and would be delivered to the pope's successor upon his election.

---

Poisoned chalice? Maybe his reasons for resigning - age frailty etc - were also a carefully considered reaction of 'I can't deal with this'?

My first thought (which I pushed back as uncharitable ) when I heard of his resignation was 'there is scandal here'.

I feel for ordinary Catholics who don't need their foundations shaking.

[ 22. February 2013, 05:49: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I feel for ordinary Catholics who don't need their foundations shaking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I feel for ordinary Catholics who don't need their foundations shaking.

---

Ordinary Catholics would feel that the foundations of their faith are shaken by the existence of a homosexual network among prelates?

Maybe somewhere deep in Africa, but they are unlikely to get the news anyhow. In the West, this will rather demonstrate that saying the word "obviously" can indicate many different things...

---

What I find unbelievable is that the existence of a homosexual network amongst Priests would lead to the Pope resigning. If there is a scandal it's got to be bigger than that or is the organisation so morally bankrupt that men having sex with other consenting adults and then being blackmailed brings down a papacy but multiple cases of rape and mistreatment of children around the world is hushed up and the perpetrators are protected over decades and shielded from civil justice.
 

---

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :
 
Everyone loves a conspiracy theory.
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
A normally reasonable and rational acquaintance of mine posted an awful article from some stupid website that was highly inflammatory claiming the Pope resigned because of crimes against humanity and was seeking immunity under Italian law.

Such charges included:

" documented crimes of child torture, trafficking and genocide linked to Pope Benedict and Vatican officials"

"In Canada alone, the Roman Catholic Church and its Vatican agents have been found guilty of responsibility for genocide and the deaths of at least 50,000 aboriginal child children in the Jesuit-initiated Indian residential school system, that operated until 1996.

In Ireland, more than 10,000 women suffered and were exploited in the Catholic-run Magdalene Laundries, where many of them died. Similar church-run institutions all over the world have caused enormous mortality, disease and ruination for millions of children. And yet the church has never been held accountable or prosecuted for these deaths and the theft of enormous wealth from entire nations."

I don't want to link to the website because it's already said it's thrilled to have received 300,000 hits and it totally doesn't deserve anymore.

It implies the Catholic church is intentionally engaging in criminal acts.

Jaysus effing Christ.....the stupidity of some people knows no bounds.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

In Ireland, more than 10,000 women suffered and were exploited in the Catholic-run Magdalene Laundries, where many of them died.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
A normally reasonable and rational acquaintance of mine posted an awful article from some stupid website that was highly inflammatory claiming the Pope resigned because of crimes against humanity and was seeking immunity under Italian law.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:
It implies the Catholic church is intentionally engaging in criminal acts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I feel for ordinary Catholics who don't need their foundations shaking.

---

Ordinary Catholics would feel that the foundations of their faith are shaken by the existence of a homosexual network among prelates?

---

Fair point - I will put my unwarranted empathy away.



[ 22. February 2013, 15:47: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

---

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
So I wonder if every cardinal going into the conclave thinks about what name they'd choose. I don't really see that at all. So the new pope just has to think quickly?

---

It usually takes several elections to find a new pope. Often it takes several days. Generally the future pope would have ample warning through that process, even time to sleep on it. That said, I wonder if there's a sort of unofficial but widely agreed upon understanding of the symbolism of the names. Or whether each candidate relies on his own reading of papal history...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
This might be an interesting choice for members of the English Church - however you may wish to interpeet that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Fair point - I will put my unwarranted empathy away.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
When did the Pope call Thich Nhat Hahn the anti-Christ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Matthew Fox shares his opinion

I detect a tone of bitterness...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
My money is on Gregory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:


(On the off-topic question of the Magdalene laundries, the commentary by Brendan O'Neil was interesting.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by teddybear:
How is discussing the very real sins of the Catholic Church anti-Catholicism?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Cardinal O'Brien seems to have sensed a weakness in the force allowing him an opportunity to talk about women clergy again!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by teddybear:
How is discussing the very real sins of the Catholic Church anti-Catholicism?

---

quote:

---

the Vatican spokesman said those putting themselves in positions of judgement had no authority to do so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by passer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by teddybear:
How is discussing the very real sins of the Catholic Church anti-Catholicism?

---

Father Federico Lombardi:

"Whoever has money, sex and power at the forefront of the mind sees the world through these parameters and cannot see beyond these even when looking at the Church," he said.

"Their view cannot look to the heights or go in-depth to understand the spiritual dimensions and motivations of existence," he added.

Whatever that means.

---

quote:

---

(On the off-topic question of the Magdalene laundries, the commentary by Brendan O'Neil was interesting.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
[Tangent Alert]

Has a Jesuit ever been elected Pope?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by passer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by teddybear:
How is discussing the very real sins of the Catholic Church anti-Catholicism?

---

Father Federico Lombardi:

"Whoever has money, sex and power at the forefront of the mind sees the world through these parameters and cannot see beyond these even when looking at the Church," he said.

"Their view cannot look to the heights or go in-depth to understand the spiritual dimensions and motivations of existence," he added.

Whatever that means.

---

Sounds like a really heavily spiritualized, sneaky version of "the ends justify the means."

ETA: An old cliche about sausage making also comes to mind.

[ 24. February 2013, 15:07: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Computer security guru Bruce Schneier discusses how hard it would be to "hack" the conclave's election process. Answer: very. (He of course merely means hacking the election process itself. Attempts at "political" hacking of the election are, I'm sure, in full swing already...)
 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Re hacking the conclave:

I've heard that no cell phones, etc. are to be allowed. But I bet *someone* will have one. If not the cardinals, then the various staff supporting them.

Think of that secret video of Romney saying that the lower classes aren't important, and all the fuss that caused...


 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re hacking the conclave:

I've heard that no cell phones, etc. are to be allowed. But I bet *someone* will have one. If not the cardinals, then the various staff supporting them.

Think of that secret video of Romney saying that the lower classes aren't important, and all the fuss that caused...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re hacking the conclave:

I've heard that no cell phones, etc. are to be allowed. But I bet *someone* will have one. If not the cardinals, then the various staff supporting them.

Think of that secret video of Romney saying that the lower classes aren't important, and all the fuss that caused...

---

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