Thread: Hell: Mogwai joins the Daily Mail's crusade to kill babies Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
As ever I respect what you have to say. But I don't see how injecting mercury, formaldehyde, dioxin, and aborted foetal blood into the body (amongst many other things) can really make it healthier.
I hardly need comment.
[edited because the bad spelling in the title was making me gag, even after one reading]
[ 29. December 2014, 22:28: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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Context? Link to thread?
Posted by Dumpling Jeff (# 12766) on
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Either some back story or comment is needed though.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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Mogwai is riding the anti-vaccination bandwagon. On a thread that was supposedly about Holy Communion, not pathetic pseudo-science.
The "As ever I respect what you have to say" line merely adds smug, smirking, insincerity to an already utterly nasty post.
Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on
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Tin hat stupidity. It would be laughable, were it not for the notable cases of children having died from diseases for which we have vaccines.
Posted by Nicolemrw (# 28) on
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My brother is one of those people who are medically not able to have a flu vaccination (because he has an egg white allergy.) he also has very bad lungs, therefore there's a good chance that getting the flu might turn into pneumonia in him. Therefore he is dependent on herd immunity for his continued health and possibly his life. So idiocy like Mogwai's really makes me SERIOUSLY ANGRY. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
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Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
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I support vaccination for childhood diseases, but I'm not going to have the flu vaccine. Admittedly, that's partly because I think the chances are that I'm old enough to have some level of immunity anyway.
But another factor is that I've read quite a bit about the effect of the annual flu vaccine and it seems to me that, while it's fine for vulnerable groups, it's really not appropriate for everybody. There's a risk either way, and I reserve the right to pick my own risk.
I don't think the herd immunity thing will work with any flu, least of all this one.
eta- X-posted with Erin. Ho hum
[ 19. October 2009, 20:24: Message edited by: QLib ]
Posted by Kid Who Cracked (# 13963) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
Thank you for saying my mother doesn't deserve to live. Very thoughtful. I'll keep that in mind at her funeral.
Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on
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After seeing my baby incredibly ill with whooping cough I have an incredibly low opinion of anti-vaxers.
Posted by Figbash (# 9048) on
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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I don't think the herd immunity thing will work with any flu, least of all this one.
Er why not? If most of the people you meet are immune, the probability of your developing the illness is lessened. This applies to pretty much any infectious disease.
Posted by hatless (# 3365) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
I agree with this, mainly because of the excitement I feel at seeing a word with two xs.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I don't think the herd immunity thing will work with any flu, least of all this one.
Er why not? If most of the people you meet are immune, the probability of your developing the illness is lessened. This applies to pretty much any infectious disease.
I think it won't work this time because it's out there, it's spreading quite rapidly and the vaccination programme hasn't got going yet. It took years for the herd immunity thing to work with smallpox, didn't it?
Posted by Dumpling Jeff (# 12766) on
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Erin wrote, quote:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
No Erin, tell us how you really feel.
Qlib, I don't like the "vulnerable category" thing. This flu seems to hit healthy people the hardest. Therefore healthy people, especially travelers, teachers, and others who might spread it should go first while there's a limited supply.
Hatless, you need a girlfriend. Add some excitement to your life.
Posted by Figbash (# 9048) on
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quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
[I think it won't work this time because it's out there, it's spreading quite rapidly and the vaccination programme hasn't got going yet. It took years for the herd immunity thing to work with smallpox, didn't it?
But if enough people among the vulnerable groups are vaccinated, then herd immunity will kick in. The problem with small-pox was that the vulnerable group was everybody.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
I don't like the "vulnerable category" thing. This flu seems to hit healthy people the hardest. Therefore healthy people, especially travelers, teachers, and others who might spread it should go first while there's a limited supply.
No, you're just presenting an argument for having different categories of vulnerable people this time. It makes far more sense for my students to be vaccinated than for me to be.
At least three of my colleagues have had swine flu among close family members in their respective households and so far there is no sign of any particular effect on the students.
eta - X-posted with Figbash - you may be right, Figgy, but then you're arguing for vulnerable groups to be vaccinated, which I'm happy to agree with anyway.
[ 19. October 2009, 21:22: Message edited by: QLib ]
Posted by Erin (# 2) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kid Who Cracked:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
Thank you for saying my mother doesn't deserve to live. Very thoughtful. I'll keep that in mind at her funeral.
You're welcome!! She should be thankful that a majority of the civilized world doesn't share her retarded views, so that she can live with the benefits of herd immunity. Which really enables her to LIVE.
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mogwai is riding the anti-vaccination bandwagon. On a thread that was supposedly about Holy Communion, not pathetic pseudo-science.
The "As ever I respect what you have to say" line merely adds smug, smirking, insincerity to an already utterly nasty post.
And the only surprise is that Mogwai was using the opportunity to spout half-witted trash about vaccination in an utterly unrelated thread, not pornography as usual. Or maybe the braincell decided to get laid and not need porn any more?
Personally, if ken is going to hand out a good thrashing round the head with the clue stick, I'm first in the queue to shake his (hopefully sore, following really vigorous thrashing), hand. I fear, however, he will get little satisfaction - outwitting the little scrote and their feeble, half-formed arguments is like shooting fish in a barrel.
AG
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
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I want Mogwai to explain what that comment has to do with Holy Communion, personally. I haven't had enough mental gymnastics in my life lately.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
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Jenny McCarthy just called, she wants to book a trip to this fabulous island Erin spoke of, one way ticket. Let's ship her sweet ass there, along with Lisa Bonet.
[edited.]
[ 20. October 2009, 03:29: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
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Vaccination against easily preventable diseases should not be optional for people without life-threatening repercussions. Like stopping at red lights - I don't give even the slightest fuck how much of a minor inconvenience they are for any particular individual, it is meaningless compared to the utility of the general conformance.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
it is meaningless compared to the utility of the general conformance.
Wonderful political speak, Rook. Why not simply say that the greater good of the greater number is what counts?
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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They've begun vaccinating for swine flu in Australia now, and so far I haven't heard any reports of anyone dying or having severe side effects. I had the vaccine a couple of weeks ago on my doctor's recommendation - I'm asthmatic and have had pneumonia and chest infections a number of times over the last couple of years.
Apparently the elderly and those with heart problems are considered the most vulnerable, but as Australia has twice as many doses as required for the whole population I didn't have to feel guilty for taking someone elses dose. They originally thought two vaccinations would be necessary, but then found out one was enough.
I really don't understand why people are anti-vaccination. Have they never walked through an old graveyard and seen the graves where multiple children died of what are now preventable diseases, within days of each other?
And I agree with Emma on the whooping cough vaccine. I missed more than 8 weeks of my first year of school with whooping cough - I was vaccinated but they had reduced the number of injections to 3 that year and later realised 4 were necessary. Or maybe the vac didn't take, and I caught it because other parents hadn't bothered to get their kids vaccinated. My younger sister was only a few months old at the time, so not vaccinated against whooping cough yet, but thankfully could be given an emergency vaccine and didn't catch it from me. It can be very severe and even deadly for babies.
Posted by five (# 14492) on
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So which does Mogwai think kills more babies? The aborted foetal blood he claims goes into vaccines or the diseases that we now vaccinate against? (Thankfully this is not now a directly possible comparison, but as much as I'm against abortion, an awful lot more babies have died, and far more would die from flu, polio, rubella, measels, whooping cough et al. And not just the babies, but their parents and so on.)
I'm not quite sure that herd immunity will happen with swine flu, as from what I understand flus aren't generally around long enough in the population to let the herd immunity build up. I also seem to recall that at least for past flu vaccines, (and for all I know this one may well be different), it never entirely prevented you getting the flu, but what it did was if you did get it, it wouldn't be as bad as you'd already have some sort of immunological response to it. And while this may well change, deaths from flu (and deaths from swine flu so far) are in people with other health conditions, such as weakened immune systems (a category which includes babies and often the elderly), heart problems, etc. It would suck to get swine flu if you're otherwise healthy, but you should be able to fight it off though you'd be down for a bit, and anti-virals will help it not last as long. But if you have other problems, it is a much bigger problem. So the whether or not to have the flu vaccine is a bigger personal question. From what I can tell herd immunity won't quite come into it.
Personally, I'm having it. One, because I have an underlying condition (mild asthma) and two because I assist heavily with the care of my elderly mother, who has severe breathing problems. But those are both categories that require protection. If I was a school teacher or a health care provider, I would also have it. But if I was an otherwise healthy individual who didn't usually get flu shots every winter, I just don't know.
Posted by Max. (# 5846) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
I'm glad I live in a world where people have the freedom to vaccinate or not. If I didn't know better I would think your reaction would be because you make big bucks from working for a pharmaceutical company (which probably overcharges for vaccinations).
Max.
Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
I'm glad I live in a world where people have the freedom to vaccinate or not. If I didn't know better I would think your reaction would be because you make big bucks from working for a pharmaceutical company (which probably overcharges for vaccinations).
Max.
Why would you think that someone who disagrees with you must have an ulterior motive?
Posted by five (# 14492) on
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I agree with Erin, though I wouldn't put it quite so strongly as "they don't deserve to live." Then again, I don't have Erin's flare for invective, which I genuinely mean as a compliment. I certainly think to myself "well, the disease they refuse to get vaccinated against will make them or their loved ones suffer when it gets them, and quite possibly kill them. And if their idiocy harms someone in my family, I will not be held responsible for my actions."
I wish I lived in a world where people did have the freedom to get vaccinated, Max. Large swathes of the world don't even have the option due to cost. What you're missing about the anti-vaccine people is that they don't want anyone to have it, for their own personal reasons. A small percentage of people cannot be vaccinated, for medical reasons. That's where "herd immunity" is so vital, but it is still a bit of a gamble for those people who cannot be vaccinated, and they know it. The people who refuse to be vaccinated? And refuse to have their children vaccinated? Still a gamble, and also reduce herd immunity for the rest of us, as to have herd immunity there needs to be a critical mass of people. The critical mass can accommodate the small percentage who can't be vaccinated, but it in no way can accomodate the percentage who won't.
Posted by ianjmatt (# 5683) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
Anti-anti-vaxxxxers should be rounded up, placed into small vans and ripped to pieces with steady machine-gun fire. Those who don't believe people derserve to live do not deserve to live.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
Anti-anti-vaxxxxers should be rounded up, placed into small vans and ripped to pieces with steady machine-gun fire. Those who don't believe people derserve to live do not deserve to live.
OK then, let's compromise. Instead of Erin's drastic suggestion, how about these "anti-vaxxers" are condemned to live with mumps, rubella, smallpox, flu and polio for the rest of their lives?
Posted by ianjmatt (# 5683) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
Anti-anti-vaxxxxers should be rounded up, placed into small vans and ripped to pieces with steady machine-gun fire. Those who don't believe people derserve to live do not deserve to live.
OK then, let's compromise. Instead of Erin's drastic suggestion, how about these "anti-vaxxers" are condemned to live with mumps, rubella, smallpox, flu and polio for the rest of their lives?
OK - as long as smokers get forced to breathe in their own 'passive smoke', drivers have their fumes fed into their cars, fat people have to pay more for public transport (and health care), heavy drinkers get refused free A & E care (and get billed for policing the town centres on a Friday night), bad drivers get refused car insurance (as it pushes up MY premiums) etc etc etc.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
OK - as long as smokers get forced to breathe in their own 'passive smoke', drivers have their fumes fed into their cars, fat people have to pay more for public transport (and health care), heavy drinkers get refused free A & E care (and get billed for policing the town centres on a Friday night), bad drivers get refused car insurance (as it pushes up MY premiums) etc etc etc.
Most of those things already happen. Drivers with a lot of crashes to their name pay higher insurance premiums, obese people often have to buy two airline seats, alcoholics can be denied health-care unless they are seeking treatment and pay heavy taxes on every beverage they buy. As to the smokers - erm, they not only absorb most of their own passive smoke, they also get several thousand times more toxins through active smoking. That's kind of the point of the whole smoking-thing.
So actually your argument seems pretty ... well, shot.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I'm glad I live in a world where people have the freedom to vaccinate or not.
As am I. But that doesn't mean I don't regard anyone who exercises their right to refuse as a knuckle-dragging fuckwit who is deliberately making the world a more dangerous place for everyone, and thus is eminently worthy of invective.
Posted by Max. (# 5846) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I'm glad I live in a world where people have the freedom to vaccinate or not.
As am I. But that doesn't mean I don't regard anyone who exercises their right to refuse as a knuckle-dragging fuckwit who is deliberately making the world a more dangerous place for everyone, and thus is eminently worthy of invective.
That's not what I said... That's what Erin is trying to argue though, she'd like them all rounded up and killed too.
I just don't agree with that, at all.
Max. who has had all his vaccinations but knows and respects people who have not and have chosen not to vaccinate their children either
Posted by Presbyopic (# 10596) on
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My problems with Mogwai's statement and those like it in the OP is that it is so typical of antivax scare tactics, backed often by very dubious or non existent science.
Medical community: We have developed a vaccine for (insert your illness here) It's finally finished and approved after years of being tested in double blind studies and has been shown to be 97% effective. With cautions to a tiny sector of the population, this is safe to use. You can read more about the research behind it here in this extensive list of medical journals. This will save millions of lives all over the world. The information is all out there to educate yourselves about this wonderful development.
Us: Ooh that great!
Antivaxxer: Do you know I read somewhere it contains aborted foetal blood, frog urine and llama snot?
Us: Oh that's horrific. We're not giving our babies that.
And with one unscientific emotion driven statement,years of research go flying out the window and the public are struck down with fear.
If you've ever watched a little baby struggling with Whooping Cough, you would get very pissed at fear mongering statements like that.
Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I'm glad I live in a world where people have the freedom to vaccinate or not.
No doubt a good thing. I'm far more ambivalent about a world where people have the freedom to allow their children to be vaccinated or not.
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on
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Max, why do you respect all your non-immunising friends?
Do you think they are original thinkers?
Would you respect any one of them the less of one of their kids with a mild case of measles passed it on to another kid who died? Sure you could be sympathetic but in your hear of hearts would you not think "you idiots"?
Mind you, at your age you are not likely to know too many people who survived the last polio pandemic (early 1950s). I've got a few contemporaries who are survivors with significant disabilities and who would have been glad to have had the Salk vaccine ( not available till 1956).
I'm just wondering how many of these idiots will deny their girls the HPV vaccine once the kids hit 12 (and boys when our tight-arsed governments realise that it would be cost-effective to jab the boys too) .
In this day and age and in our relatively affluent society there is no bloody excuse. The medical contra- indications to the basic childhood immunisations are few and far between. If a child is immunosuppressed (eg HIV positive) then the live vaccines such as MMR or chickenpox are out-bad luck if such a kid is exposed to infection as that kid could die. The parents have to cross their fingers and hope for the best.
Not all that long ago there was an epidemic of polio in eastern Asia; the bug had spread via people who had gone to Mecca for the Hajj. The original source f infection was from Nigeria, and was traced to folk from a district where the mullahs had told the locals that the polio vaccine would make them and their children sterile. That was believed, with catastrophic results in terms of death and disability, since Mecca would have been full of people and the sanitation would not have been of the best.
Think again.
m
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Mind you, at your age you are not likely to know too many people who survived the last polio pandemic (early 1950s).
I've often wondered this myself - I encountered the first polio victim I'd met here in the UK for at least a decade recently, and they were probably pre-Salk in age (I'm a little under twice Max's age). I can't help thinking that people have forotten that, actually, these diseases can kill, and can really fuck up the survivors for the rest of their lives. Someone like India or Nigeria you might be a lot more aware of this.
Interestingly I also recall reading that the "sugar lump" vaccine for polio was perceived as being safer than an injection - when in fact the older vaccine had much higher rates of complications, so it's definitely a question of perception.
Sadly, some people are utter fuckmuppets, and I'd count Mogwai amongst them. I wonder when they're going to surface from beneath their bridge and explain the liturgical significance?
AG
Posted by Presbyopic (# 10596) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Mind you, at your age you are not likely to know too many people who survived the last polio pandemic (early 1950s).
I've often wondered this myself - I encountered the first polio victim I'd met here in the UK for at least a decade recently, and they were probably pre-Salk in age (I'm a little under twice Max's age). I can't help thinking that people have forotten that, actually, these diseases can kill, and can really fuck up the survivors for the rest of their lives. Someone like India or Nigeria you might be a lot more aware of this.
Interestingly I also recall reading that the "sugar lump" vaccine for polio was perceived as being safer than an injection - when in fact the older vaccine had much higher rates of complications, so it's definitely a question of perception.
Sadly, some people are utter fuckmuppets, and I'd count Mogwai amongst them. I wonder when they're going to surface from beneath their bridge and explain the liturgical significance?
AG
I'm 48 and had a few polio survivors as friends. You knew them immediately by the braces on their skinny wasted little legs. Beyond my age you are unlikely to come across many as I was on the very edge of the era.
However, my mother had 3 children pre 1956 and I remember her telling me of the fear of every parent during the pandemic that they would lose a child to polio. They felt helpless, vulnerable and quite frankly, terrified.
Come the mid 50's and early 60's and the sense of relief for parents was astounding. They finally had a weapon to protect their children against this childhood menace. Then followed more miracles for Diptheria, Whooping Cough and so on.
Weren't many anti vaxxers around back in those days. Just a lot of grateful parents with their children by their sides.
Posted by Dumpling Jeff (# 12766) on
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Max, I also am glad to live in a world where we're free. But I'm sad to live in a world where people are stupid enough to avoid vaccines.
Really, you have to be stupid to avoid them, like playing Russian Roulette stupid.
Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dumpling Jeff:
Max, I also am glad to live in a world where we're free. But I'm sad to live in a world where people are stupid enough to avoid vaccines.
Really, you have to be stupid to avoid them, like playing Russian Roulette stupid.
Or breaking the 10Cs in the Styx stupid?
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Presbyopic:
I'm 48 and had a few polio survivors as friends. You knew them immediately by the braces on their skinny wasted little legs.
Funnily enough, in the canteen at work today was a visitor - 60ish, dragging a wasted leg, just a few minutes after my earlier post. I think it very likely he was a polio victim.
So... What, I wonder, do the anti-vaxxers say about THIS pic?
That was the most developed nation in the world, and all they could do was stick people in one of those. If you were bad enough to need an iron lung, that was where you were going to spend the rest of your life...
And now some fuckwits think we should go back...
AG
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
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When I was a boy in the 50s and 60s and undergoing treatment in the hospitals I watched many other boys (well the ward was same sex) die due to exposure to polio contacted pre-Salk. It wasn't fun. Eradication of tuberculosis and malaria in significant parts of the world are good things too. Smallpox anyone? That's gone, for the most part. Even chickenpox and measles. And mumps.
I am a firm believer in vaccination. You don't want to be vaccinated? Fine. Just don't bore me with your rationalisations.
Posted by IntellectByProxy (# 3185) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Max. who...respects people who have chosen not to vaccinate their children
Let me tell you a story.
I am part of a workers' union - I am a professional engineer, rather than a factory worker, and so I am quite unusual in my union membership.
My union negotiates pay, arbitrates at grievances and disciplinaries, and generally makes working life more pleasant and remunerative for everyone.
My colleague (amongst many) has not joined the union. His argument is that they do all the stuff listed above regardless of whether he pays them £14 a month, so only a mug would pay for something he can get for free.
Of course that means that he is a twat. The union has power because it has a quorum of members; if the herd drops below quorum then the union has no power and the employer can bend its employees over and roger them.
So it is with vaccination: if you don't vaccinate then you'll probably be ok because everyone around you is vaccinated: you're free-loading on their good sense. Unfortunately once enough people think like you, everyone gets bent over and rogered.
Being against vaccination ignores the credible, lengthy, and mightily established safety record and efficacy of vaccination.
Why would you respect someone for having a view which was so stupid, demonstrably moronic, and selfish?
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
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I didn't get several of my jabs as a kid, because in their Infinite Wisdom, the doctors at the HMO decided they didn't need to give them any more as the illnesses were, I dunno, imaginary or no longer a problem or something.
Therefore, I had whooping cough as a 12 year old.
Let me explain to those of you who have never had whooping cough, or listened to someone suffer from whooping cough. It is called 'whooping cough' because you cough so hard that you collapse your lungs, and the sound you make trying to gasp for breath is "whoop! whoop!" This cough continues for over three months, which is why it's also called "100-Day Cough".
I, personally, coughed so hard I broke a rib.
If you've never had the joy of a broken rib, let me explain-- when you bust a rib, breathing hurts. When you bust a rib, coughing is equivalent to stabbing yourself in the side with a 60cm knitting needle and burying it to the hilt. So, breaking a rib due to intense coughing that will not go away for MONTHS is the kind of torment that, if I believed in an afterlife Hell, would be well suited to that demenses.
Whooping cough is considered one of the 'mild' diseases in the usual round of jabs, which means it's not liable to kill you, but it makes you wish you were dead. So when I found out that your natural immunity from suffering through it disappears after a decade or so, I demanded a new jab from my doctor.
Because, by the grace of God and God's inspiration upon biological researchers, I do not have to suffer that horror ever again.
Therefore, in my book, anyone who 'respects' people who will willingly put their children through the possibiltiy of suffering such horrific, painful, and life-threatening diseases is just as cruel and careless with a child's life as the moronic parents.
Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on
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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
I am a firm believer in vaccination. You don't want to be vaccinated? Fine. Just don't bore me with your rationalisations.
PeteC, with the greatest possible respect to you live-and-let-live attitude, I don't think it is fine for people not to get vaccinated on a hunch. I would say that we all have a social responsibility to keep herd immunity as fully intact as possible, and since there are some individuals who have legitimate medical reasons why they can't have the vaccines*, the onus on the rest of us to shoulder that responsibility. So, I don't want to hear the boring rationalizations either. I want to give them a simple choice: take the vaccine, or be relocated to a quarantined compound.
* like egg white allergy in the case of the flu vaccine, for example.
Posted by Presbyopic (# 10596) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
I am a firm believer in vaccination. You don't want to be vaccinated? Fine. Just don't bore me with your rationalisations.
PeteC, with the greatest possible respect to you live-and-let-live attitude, I don't think it is fine for people not to get vaccinated on a hunch. I would say that we all have a social responsibility to keep herd immunity as fully intact as possible, and since there are some individuals who have legitimate medical reasons why they can't have the vaccines*, the onus on the rest of us to shoulder that responsibility. So, I don't want to hear the boring rationalizations either. I want to give them a simple choice: take the vaccine, or be relocated to a quarantined compound.
* like egg white allergy in the case of the flu vaccine, for example.
Well I might not go as far as a quarantined compound but I would suggest boning up on your math and science so you can home school your kids. They are the innocents, but nevertheless they are a risk to other children (the rest of the herd if you will). Certainly keeping them at home would keep them safer than say, creating schools for the non-immunized. That would be a death sentence.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
Or breaking the 10Cs in the Styx stupid?
Keep Styx issues in the Styx, Earwig.
comet
Hellhost
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Just got another jab for whooping cough, tetanus and flu (seasonal). I WISH I could have gotten the swine flu jab but it isn't available here yet. Which is why I'm down with the bloody swine flu this week. AND going absolutely bonkers with boredom here, since being a halfway responsible idiot, I'm not going to go out and spread my germs to an unvaccinated population. (I'm going to be REALLY annoying on Ship this week.)
My family look like pincushions, we go for every vaccination available to us (pneumonia, etc.). Why the hell would I risk putting my own family through anything so easily preventable? Let alone passing it to somebody else.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
(I'm going to be REALLY annoying on Ship this week.)
As opposed to?
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Just noticed crosspost. We have a local school for the non-immunized (I think they're JWs). Every couple years or so they have a massive outbreak of something horrid like whooping cough or measles. Usually a few wind up hospitalized, and then it spreads into the community.
Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Just noticed crosspost. We have a local school for the non-immunized (I think they're JWs). Every couple years or so they have a massive outbreak of something horrid like whooping cough or measles. Usually a few wind up hospitalized, and then it spreads into the community.
Hence the need for, ahem, stringent security measures.
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Just got another jab for whooping cough, tetanus and flu (seasonal). I WISH I could have gotten the swine flu jab but it isn't available here yet. Which is why I'm down with the bloody swine flu this week. AND going absolutely bonkers with boredom here, since being a halfway responsible idiot, I'm not going to go out and spread my germs to an unvaccinated population. (I'm going to be REALLY annoying on Ship this week.)
But hey! Now that you have the Piggy Sniffles, you don't have to get the H1N1 jab that's not even available to medical workers yet!
(Did I forget to mention that I'm on our hospital's H1N1 Response Team? And how I'm looking at the many, many, MANY hours of OT as that much more towards my house down payment? And that I have one of these on my desk that I punch periodically?)
[ 20. October 2009, 17:24: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Mousethief, consider yourself breathed upon. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Actually, I WILL have to get that jab, simply because the doctors can't be sure swine flu is what I have. Although I've had the seasonal job,Hnwhatever is rampant around here, and if it oinks like a pig...
On the positive side, I just chased off one of those door-to-door "fix your driveway, lady?" types by telling him through the chain I had the flu. Now THAT got rid of him quick. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Oh great, Spiffy. Now my little monster here (also home sick) has fallen in love with the plush microbes and is adding to his Christmas list.
Posted by Figbash (# 9048) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Oh great, Spiffy. Now my little monster here (also home sick) has fallen in love with the plush microbes and is adding to his Christmas list.
It could be worse: he could have asked for a plush shoggoth.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Oh great, Spiffy. Now my little monster here (also home sick) has fallen in love with the plush microbes and is adding to his Christmas list.
It could be worse: he could have asked for a plush shoggoth.
Wouldn't "crushing the frantic penguins" be a fabulous name for a rock band?
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Well, he decided to pass on the Shoggoth, but he DID tell me he needed to check out the site so he could "make his mind up." ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posted by Nicolemrw (# 28) on
:
I got my daughter a plush cthulu for Christmas last year, but this year she wants a brain cell
But more seriously, and speaking of my daughter. I remember how happy her doctor was when we told him we were having her get the cervical cancer vaccine. I can't imagan why any parent of a daughter could possibly be against that. The arguments that it somehow promotes sexual activity make no sense to me... even if a girl was totally monogamous, she could get it from her husband if he hadn't been in his past. Or of course, there's always the fear of what can be passed on through rape.
Posted by The Atheist (# 12067) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
I don't think you go far enough.
We should inject them with the diseases so they can build immunity - that's how it works, isn't it?
Posted by ianjmatt (# 5683) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
I don't think you go far enough.
We should inject them with the diseases so they can build immunity - that's how it works, isn't it?
The thing is (and I say this as someone who's kids are all vaccinated, and my twelve year old will be getting the HPV vaccine), this sort of hellish rant is well and dandy, but it doesn't change a damn thing. How do you actually and really change people's minds? (Sorry - not very hellish ... I'll go back to purg soon).
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
excellent idea for a Purg thread, ian. if you start it I'll participate.
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
How do you actually and really change people's minds?
Build a mind-control ray, duh.
Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Presbyopic:
If you've ever watched a little baby struggling with Whooping Cough, you would get very pissed at fear mongering statements like that.
Yup.
Was horrid enough as an adult (see Spiffy's account) but terrifying to see a baby regularly turning blue as they can't breath.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
Yeah, but tell us what you really think! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Alfred E. Neuman (# 6855) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
How do you actually and really change people's minds?
Build a mind-control ray, duh.
Actually, negative reinforcement works best - beatings, torture, that sort of thing.
Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
Or breaking the 10Cs in the Styx stupid?
Keep Styx issues in the Styx, Earwig.
comet
Hellhost
Apologies comet.
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alfred E. Neuman:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
How do you actually and really change people's minds?
Build a mind-control ray, duh.
Actually, negative reinforcement works best - beatings, torture, that sort of thing.
Too many morons, not enough time. The name of the game is automation.
Posted by Nicolemrw (# 28) on
:
Coincidentally, I saw this in the news yesterday:
WHO: Nearly 1 in 5 babies still missed by vaccines
Though I suppose Mogwai thinks it's a good thing those countries are too poor to afford to vaccinate their children.
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on
:
From the WHO report [PDF] Nicole mentioned:
quote:
By the 2020s, the strategies put in place to reach the [Millennium Development Goals] should have brought deaths among children under five years old to an all-time low. Polio should be eradicated, and measles eliminated in all countries. Neonatal and maternal tetanus should no longer be exerting such a heavy toll on babies and mothers, and today’s underused vaccines (against Hib disease, hepatitis B, and yellow fever) may have rid the world of the lethal burden of these diseases.
Those monsters!!! They're not even trying to hide their insidious agenda.
Posted by Nicolemrw (# 28) on
:
No, no, Cro, you don't understand. It's all a lie. Those reductions in death and disease rates aren't due to the vacinations, they're due to... uh, um...
er...? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by Figbash (# 9048) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Coincidentally, I saw this in the news yesterday:
WHO: Nearly 1 in 5 babies still missed by vaccines
Though I suppose Mogwai thinks it's a good thing those countries are too poor to afford to vaccinate their children.
And presumably Mogwai also thinks it absolutely spiffing that Polio has not been eradicated, as it should have been by now, but is instead a growing menace again.
And to answer your other point: isn't it obvious? The reduction in illness, the elimination of smallpox, the near elimination of polio, are all due to people aligning their chakras and their pineal glands with the Great Pyramid in the centre of the Earth. Allopathic medicine is not holistic and hence wrong.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
just thought I'd chime in and add to Spiffy's account - I've had two* of the diseases you can get vaccinated for: one was despite the shots (nasty strain of whooping cough went through my village and two infants died) and the other was for something that the shots are available for now but weren't then - Hepatitis A. these aren't just "suck it up and deal" diseases - they're life threatening. and they're awful.
my kids get their vaccines on time and I'm thankful - incredibly thankful - they dont have to go through those diseases.
*three, if you count chicken pox. which sucked, but wasn't life threatening and I got a kitten from my mom for going through it. I was 5.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
*three, if you count chicken pox. which sucked, but wasn't life threatening and I got a kitten from my mom for going through it. I was 5.
No fair - we never got tasty treats from our parents when we got sick. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Wilfried (# 12277) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
I'm glad I live in a world where people have the freedom to vaccinate or not. If I didn't know better I would think your reaction would be because you make big bucks from working for a pharmaceutical company (which probably overcharges for vaccinations).
Max.
Yes they are free to opt out of vaccinations, but in that case they're also free, nay, required to opt their kids out of free public school. To benefit from the public good also requires one to pay ones share in it, through paying taxes, or by assuming the miniscule risk of a vaccine to protect all. Honestly, those folks who refuse the risk of a vaccine count on their kids staying safe because they count on others assuming that risk.
Maybe those folks don't deserve to die, but they don't deserve to participate in civil society. They want to stay free of all risk, everyone else in the world be damned? Fine, quarantine them in a sterile house. Seal it, and let them rot. They're free of vaccines, and any contact that might get them sick, and the rest of us are free of their me first above all the rest of the world be damned mentality.
Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on
:
A friend of mine has a "tweenage" daughter who had various neurological glitches of the sort normally associated with prematurity, but the girl was born full term. Her vision was deteriorating, and an older pediatric ophthalmologist recognized the problem as being from congenital rubella syndrome.
None of her other doctors had recognized it. They just don't see congenital rubella any more.
My friend had gotten pregnant while she was in India, where there is no herd immunity. Her own immunity had apparently dwindled. She didn't know she was pregnant, and didn't know she had gotten rubella.
Now her daughter has developed schizophrenia, which afflicts a huge proportion of people with congenital rubella, and her cognitive abilities are becoming increasingly impaired.
Other viral infections are associated with an increased risk of schizophrenia when the mother contracts them during the first trimester. Including influenza.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
My Dad talks of his childhood in 1930s/40s Melbourne where polio victims were wheeled into the classroom on trolleys. Non immunisers don't remember these days becasue they've been brought up with the benefit of everybody else being vaccinated. I'm with Erin on this one, ok maybe I don't want them dead but I do want them quarantined from society.
quote:
Qlib, I don't like the "vulnerable category" thing. This flu seems to hit healthy people the hardest. Therefore healthy people, especially travelers, teachers, and others who might spread it should go first while there's a limited supply.
In Australia healthy people have been fine with the swine flu but it's been the vulnerable people who've died eg a pregnant woman and her baby, and those with other health issues and it has disproportionatly affected our indigenous population too. We always promote that those most at risk from a virus receive vax first.
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
A friend of mine has a "tweenage" daughter who had various neurological glitches of the sort normally associated with prematurity, but the girl was born full term. Her vision was deteriorating, and an older pediatric ophthalmologist recognized the problem as being from congenital rubella syndrome.
None of her other doctors had recognized it. They just don't see congenital rubella any more.
My friend had gotten pregnant while she was in India, where there is no herd immunity. Her own immunity had apparently dwindled. She didn't know she was pregnant, and didn't know she had gotten rubella.
Now her daughter has developed schizophrenia, which afflicts a huge proportion of people with congenital rubella, and her cognitive abilities are becoming increasingly impaired.
Other viral infections are associated with an increased risk of schizophrenia when the mother contracts them during the first trimester. Including influenza.
Congenital rubella syndrome is also a known cause of autism. So the irony of people shunning vaccines because they don't want autistic kids would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic and dangerous.
Posted by Mr Clingford (# 7961) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
just thought I'd chime in and add to Spiffy's account - I've had two* of the diseases you can get vaccinated for: one was despite the shots (nasty strain of whooping cough went through my village and two infants died) and the other was for something that the shots are available for now but weren't then - Hepatitis A. these aren't just "suck it up and deal" diseases - they're life threatening. and they're awful.
Well, I had Hep A when I was 19 and it wasn't fun, but I didn't think the disease was life-threatening. It was hell though - I couldn't drink alcohol for 6 months. The Horror.
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on
:
quote:
but I didn't think the disease was life-threatening. It was hell though - I couldn't drink alcohol for 6 months. The Horror.
Just cos you didn't have a bad time doesn't mean the disease isn't life threatening. A childhood friend from my neighbourhood died at the age of 18 from hep A. She had a previously unknown congenital liver problem but when she conracted hep her liver just collapsed and she was dead in 2 days.
Posted by Nicolemrw (# 28) on
:
My mother was always very paranoid about making sure we kids were up-to-date on our tetnus shots, and having us get one if we were injured in a way that would make tetnus a possiblity. I never wondered why when I was a kid, but when I got older and found out other people weren't so particular about them, I wondered a little.
Then I found out. When she was a kid, a girl in her neighborhood died from tetnus. She overheard the whispered conversations of the adults that the kids weren't supposed to hear, about how terrible a death it was. The girl apparently screamed in pain for days until she finally died.
I guess my mother was traumatized by hearing about it, it was so bad.
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Clingford:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
just thought I'd chime in and add to Spiffy's account - I've had two* of the diseases you can get vaccinated for: one was despite the shots (nasty strain of whooping cough went through my village and two infants died) and the other was for something that the shots are available for now but weren't then - Hepatitis A. these aren't just "suck it up and deal" diseases - they're life threatening. and they're awful.
Well, I had Hep A when I was 19 and it wasn't fun, but I didn't think the disease was life-threatening. It was hell though - I couldn't drink alcohol for 6 months. The Horror.
So, Mr. Clingford, let me get your position straight here. You would rather suffer these symptoms for between one and three weeks and then not drink alcohol for six months rather than have a single jab and not suffer the illness at all?
I guess if you're into masochistically offering up suffering to the Lord, you'd take the former option.
Posted by The Atheist (# 12067) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
The thing is (and I say this as someone who's kids are all vaccinated, and my twelve year old will be getting the HPV vaccine), this sort of hellish rant is well and dandy, but it doesn't change a damn thing. How do you actually and really change people's minds? (Sorry - not very hellish ... I'll go back to purg soon).
If you can point me to a plan which will change the mids of anti-vaxers, I'll take it on.
I long since figured I wouldn't try anything as silly as trying to change the minds of the ignorant scum who perpetrate anti-vax lies and hysteria. There is no point whatsoever, there are Himalayas of evidence to show that anti-vaxers are wilfully and dangerously ignorant in every way, so it's not as though logic will work.
Up against an opposition whose only tactics are lies and then bigger lies, what possible use is there in anything but abuse, scorn and derision?
If we're honest about it, anti-vaxers are far worse than paedophiles - a paedophile may destroy a few lives - anti-vaxers seek to destroy millions.
How do you think you'd react if a paedophile came to Hell and tried to justify why he should be allowed to fuck little boys? Maybe you would sit and try to rationalise, but I'll always take the line that paedophiles can be locked away while anti-vaxers should be shot.
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Atheist:
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
This sort of hellish rant is well and dandy, but it doesn't change a damn thing. How do you actually and really change people's minds?
If you can point me to a plan which will change the mids of anti-vaxers, I'll take it on.
*points to her mind control ray plan.*
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
I don't think you can change the anti-vaxers, necessarily, but we should have an eye toward their potential recruits, people who are not yet anti-vaxers, but might tip one way or the other. Perhaps some good evidence-based propaganda could counter the hyteria-based propaganda of the anti-vax idiots, and keep their ranks from swelling any more than necessary.
Posted by five (# 14492) on
:
Unfortunately it seems they've got plenty of publicity and some traction.
Posted by RooK (# 1852) on
:
So, Mousethief, you're saying that fighting against the idiocy and lies can act as an anti-vax vaccine?
I like it.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
That makes my head hurt.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
*three, if you count chicken pox. which sucked, but wasn't life threatening and I got a kitten from my mom for going through it. I was 5.
No fair - we never got tasty treats from our parents when we got sick.
yeah well, my mommy loves me.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Clingford:
Well, I had Hep A when I was 19 and it wasn't fun, but I didn't think the disease was life-threatening. It was hell though - I couldn't drink alcohol for 6 months. The Horror.
la-ti-fucking-da for you. I barfed for three weeks straight and ended up in the hospital with malnutrition, horrific dehydration, jaundice, a torn belly muscle and a whopping 36 pound weight loss which I couldn't exactly spare.
alcohol was the least of my worries.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
The moronic inference from "Person X had experience Y and lived" to "experience Y isn't dangerous" is ... well ... moronic. If a disease is 80% fatal, coming up with the 20% who lived and saying, "See, they lived, it can't be all that bad!" is just stupid. It's fucking stupid. It's brain-the-size-of-a-cherrystone-clam stupid. And going from the 20% to ONE PERSON and using that as a reason why it isn't really dangerous ... words fail. It's in the "you should sell your head because a piece of burled wood that large can bring a lot of money" range.
Posted by Presbyopic (# 10596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Clingford:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
just thought I'd chime in and add to Spiffy's account - I've had two* of the diseases you can get vaccinated for: one was despite the shots (nasty strain of whooping cough went through my village and two infants died) and the other was for something that the shots are available for now but weren't then - Hepatitis A. these aren't just "suck it up and deal" diseases - they're life threatening. and they're awful.
Well, I had Hep A when I was 19 and it wasn't fun, but I didn't think the disease was life-threatening. It was hell though - I couldn't drink alcohol for 6 months. The Horror.
Not all the diseases we vaccinate the population for are necessarily directly life threatening. For instance, Rubella is a relatively inconsequential disease to males and non pregnant females. But devastating to unborn foetuses. Likewise, mumps was a yucky few days of illness to me, but had I been a male, I might very likely be sterile now. We are vaccinated to avoid the future consequences of many diseases. Vaccinating against Hep A would avoid the possibility of future liver failure and the need for transplantation in some affected individuals.
Posted by Mr Clingford (# 7961) on
:
Well, gosh, that was an exciting bunch of replies to my post - you guys didn't let me down. To go from my saying that my experience of Hep A was kind of mild to thinking that I therefore am an anti-vaxxer is one big unwarranted leap.
It was almost 20 years ago, when I was 19, that I had Hep A, symptoms like flu plus jaundice. It was very rare and I'm not sure that there was a vaccine back then. Even today I don't think that people in the UK are vaccinated apart from some vulnerable people so there is no herd immunity.
And not drinking alcohol for six months was serious ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posted by The Atheist (# 12067) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't think you can change the anti-vaxers, necessarily, but we should have an eye toward their potential recruits, people who are not yet anti-vaxers, but might tip one way or the other. Perhaps some good evidence-based propaganda could counter the hyteria-based propaganda of the anti-vax idiots, and keep their ranks from swelling any more than necessary.
But that's already there!
There are hundreds and hundreds of papers, research reports and mountains of evidence, none of which is hard to find.
Anyone truly searching for facts on vaccines will find them easily - doctors aren't usually shy on the subject.
The worst thing about anti-vaxers is their self-delusion that they're actually championing people's rights.
Sick, sick, sick fuckers.
Posted by 3M Matt (# 1675) on
:
Quick anectodal evidence:
In my medical career, I have seen 1 child die, and 1 child be seriously ill from not being vaccinated.
I have not yet seen any child with a significant problem from vaccination.
Meaningless sample perhaps...but the sort of people who believe the anti-vaccination crap put a lot more weight on anecdotes then studies.
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on
:
Presbyopic, rubella might be a mild disease for male children but it can be a perfect stinker for adults. Sponsa came down with rubella at the age of 28, and developed the very typical acute arthritis ( mainly affecting small joints) which incapacitated him for some weeks. He was a 4th year medical student at the time. Our then 3 year old developed a mild infection (caught form Sponsa) which he hardly noticed; I picked the nodes at the back of his head and the minimal rash. Luckily I had been given the shot the day after firstborn's birth having been dopey enough to conceive with inadequate immunity (my parents were overseas in the late 60s when the shot became available so weren't there to consent to my being immunised while at the gulag).
I managed to catch the mumps 28 weeks into my 3rd pregnancy; it was complicated by meningitis but fortunately my now 25 year old daughter was none the worse for her exposure. God thing that it wasn't in the first trimester; I probably would have miscarried. Both first and seond born had the chickenpox 3 weeks before the birth of #3; I kept my knees together praying for them to get past the infectious stage before I delivered and luckily all went to plan. Chickenpox is also a shocker for adults, especially if wither pregnant or immunosuppressed.
30-odd years ago there was so much ill-founded talk about the pertussis vaccine causing epilepsy and brain damage that here in Oz the powers that be canned the rubella part of the triple vaccine for the 18 months and 5 year boosters. There was no objective evidence to back up that claim and we have paid dearly for the bureaucrats' decision to kowtow to the anti-immunisation brigade.
m
Posted by jlg (# 98) on
:
What annoyed me about the public policy about immunizations was that in my state (and many others) it was all or nothing.
You were legally allowed to say that you didn't believe in immunizations (end of discussion), or you had to buy into any and all of whatever the State decided was necessary.
So I was quite happy with infant innoculation for polio, diptheria, and especially tetanus for my kids, I had second thoughts about MMR and chicken pox.
But I wasn't allowed to choose; it was all or nothing.
I would have preferred to wait in hope of a mild childhood case of chicken pox, rubella, and measles. My understanding was that one had lifetime immunity after the mild childhood experience.
But it seems that this isn;t true? Details and Studies?
Posted by Nunzia (# 4766) on
:
jlg,
From the National Library of Medicine website.
Rubella. Lifetime immunity after infection.
Chicken pox. One chance in ten of developing shingles as an adult after having chicken pox.
Measles is a bit more serious
as this Mayo clinic report attests which I found as one of the links from here.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
From what I've heard, you really do not want shingles. Ergo you really do not want chicken pox.
And herd immunity is very important for rubella so that pregnant mothers who cannot be immunized are protected.
No reasons to avoid these immunizations seem good enough given the good reasons to get them.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
From what I've heard, you really do not want shingles. Ergo you really do not want chicken pox.
And herd immunity is very important for rubella so that pregnant mothers who cannot be immunized are protected.
No reasons to avoid these immunizations seem good enough given the good reasons to get them.
Hear it again; Mrs Sioni and my Mother have both had chicken pox and shingles. One of Mrs Sioni's neices had shingles at seven! Her idiot teacher said "No dear, you had chicken pox."
Shingles is nasty.
Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on
:
As a child, whenever any of my friends went down with German Measles, I was taken round to play with them, but I never managed to catch it. My mother was very relieved when she learnt that I was going to get the Rubella jab in my first year at Secondary School.
Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on
:
With H1N1 bearing down upon us, more and more Canadians are becoming dubious about the value of the vaccine and are refusing to get jabbed. Article here. I blame the moronic communications of our federal health minister and her department; as a comedian said the other night, "Go to their website and see how to bore, confuse, and panic people all at the same time. They can't even spell 'cough' correctly!"
In a casual conversation with other school parents this morning, none of the half-dozen planned to be immunized or have their children immunized.
I suppose part of the anti-vax appeal is to congratulate yourself for feeling brave and principled and not a "sheeple", unlike all those who believe what doctors and research scientists are saying.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
quote:
I suppose part of the anti-vax appeal is to congratulate yourself for feeling brave and principled and not a "sheeple", unlike all those who believe what doctors and research scientists are saying.
... because of course Everyone Knows that journalists, celebrities and the people you meet in the bus queue know far more about evidence-based medicine and the risks/benefits of taking vaccines than the so-called experts, who merely have degrees and umpty years experience in the subject and have dedicated their careers to preventing diseases. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Personally, if I am going to be a sheeple I prefer to follow someone who knows where s/he is going.
Jane R
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
because of course Everyone Knows that journalists, celebrities and the people you meet in the bus queue know far more about evidence-based medicine and the risks/benefits of taking vaccines than the so-called experts, who merely have degrees and umpty years experience in the subject and have dedicated their careers to preventing diseases.
And, of course, it's YOUR CHILDREN that THEY are taking risks with!!!!!!!!!! (meant to sound hysterical, by the way).
Never mind the risks you are taking with them, and everyone around them, if you decide not to vaccinate...
Incidentally, where the fuck is Mogwai - shouldn't they be down here defending their sorry arse?
AG
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
:
Mogwai avoids Hell, having some regard for her sorry ass.
Like many others called here.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
quote:
I suppose part of the anti-vax appeal is to congratulate yourself for feeling brave and principled and not a "sheeple", unlike all those who believe what doctors and research scientists are saying.
... because of course Everyone Knows that journalists, celebrities and the people you meet in the bus queue know far more about evidence-based medicine and the risks/benefits of taking vaccines than the so-called experts, who merely have degrees and umpty years experience in the subject and have dedicated their careers to preventing diseases.
Why would Oprah lie to me? ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on
:
The issue of Chicken pox vaccination is an interesting one.
Chicken pox is caused by the virus Varicella zoster (part of the Herpes family of viruses). It is contagious until the skin lesions crust over. Shingles is a reactivation of the varicella virus that 'hides' in nerve cells where the immune system can't see it. Shingles is very nasty but it's not usually dangerous. Chicken pox is self-limiting in the vast majority of cases but can lead to life threating complications (most commonly varicella pneumonitis - lung involvement). You can't get shingles without having had chicken pox.
There is a chicken pox vaccine available and it is effective. However it is not advocated for mass vaccination. There is a very good reason for this - if we were to roll-out a vaccination program for varicella then the short-to-medium-term effect of that would be to push the peak in chicken pox from 5-7 year olds to 15-20 year olds. This is a bad thing as the risk of life-threatening complications is much much higher in adults with chicken pox than children as well as the risk to pregnant women.
This is why the vaccine is used in a targeted manner to high-risk individuals only.
I think Chicken pox vaccine is a very important component of the fight against the anti-vax argument. All over the anti-vaxxer websites you see the assertion that vaccination is not about saving lives but is all about making money for the drug companies. If this were true then there would be a Chicken pox vaccine program in the UK (and possibly Hep A and Hep B and maybe even Yellow Fever...)
AFZ
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on
:
I wish the Hep B immunisation were universal.
In Oz,an infant has to eb the child of a known Hep B carrier or else have parents from a country where Hep B is endemic (most of SE Asia, Africa or else be the child of Aboriginal parents) to be immunised at birth.
I had the sense to get outr 3 jabbed in early childhood only because in the event of a Hep infection the risk of becoming a chronic carrier is unacceptably high at 25%.
In the long term it would save the world a bomb if there were universal Hep B immunisation-and in real terms it ain't all that expensive.
m
Posted by Presbyopic (# 10596) on
:
In my part of the US, children all have to have the Varicella vax by kindergarten and Hep B courses have to be complete by the beginning of junior high.
Posted by multipara (# 2918) on
:
That's enlightenment. Do the little blighters get the bread and butter tetanus-diphtheria-polio-pertussis=measles -mumps-rubella as well?
And who pays for this?
m (ever-curious)
Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on
:
The Hep B is an interesting one.
There is no scientific arguement against it - it's safe and there's no downside like with varicella.
I'm not sure it's necessary though as it is only transmitted by a parenteral route. It's certainly not cost-effective to vaccinate everyone.
The point is, though, that the vaccine strategies are well thought-out.
AFZ
Posted by Presbyopic (# 10596) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
That's enlightenment. Do the little blighters get the bread and butter tetanus-diphtheria-polio-pertussis=measles -mumps-rubella as well?
And who pays for this?
m (ever-curious)
Looking at kiddo #3's healthvax card here. He got:
5 DTP
4 HIB
4 Polio
2 MMR
the 3 shot Hep B
1 varicella but his younger brothers got 2 each.
and my daughter got her all that plus her HPV course at 16 because that is when it was first released.
Oh and it's paid for by a combo of my health ins and me. But if I had no health ins I would go to the local child health clinic and get it for free along with the well child checks.
[ 27. October 2009, 13:40: Message edited by: Presbyopic ]
Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Mogwai avoids Hell, having some regard for her sorry ass. Like many others called here.
Although, sadly, her homeopathic level of debating skills make it like shooting fish in a barrel anyway.
Pity, it's be nice to do an anti-vax St Sebastian session.
AG
Posted by jlg (# 98) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nunzia:
jlg,
From the National Library of Medicine website.
Rubella. Lifetime immunity after infection.
Chicken pox. One chance in ten of developing shingles as an adult after having chicken pox.
Measles is a bit more serious
as this Mayo clinic report attests which I found as one of the links from here.
Belated thanks for those links, Nunzia!
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
Just for clarity: There is no guarantee of lifetime immunity from rubella, either by infection or by vaccine.
I should know. I've had it twice and was vaccinated after the second occurence. As it says in Nunzia's link: any woman planning to get pregnant should have her immunity level checked.
Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
As ever I respect what you have to say. But I don't see how injecting mercury, formaldehyde, dioxin, and aborted foetal blood into the body (amongst many other things) can really make it healthier.
I hardly need comment.
[edited because the bad spelling in the title was making me gag, even after one reading]
'Swine flu "Considerably less lethal than feared in advance"'
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
So?
Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on
:
From the BBC report linked to by Mogwai: quote:
Two thirds of those who died from swine flu would have been eligible for vaccination and the authors say this demonstrates the importance of immunising those at high risk of complications.
Mogwai, you seem to be too stupid even to read the articles that you link to. People died because vaccination was not as complete as it should have been. You disprove your own point.
Posted by PhilA (# 8792) on
:
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
You expect Mogwai to read and understand something?
Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by IntellectByProxy:
Being against vaccination ignores the credible, lengthy, and mightily established safety record and efficacy of vaccination.
Hmm. Well that's debatable. Would genuinely appreciate it if you could provide links. Several people appear to be taking it for granted the science is long established; when I look for it it isn't there in an unambiguous way.
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Mogwai, you seem to be too stupid even to read the articles that you link to.
I have no idea who you are, but you're very, very, *very* boring. And a total stalking psycho. Are you capable of making up a real life friend to follow round instead?
Or just fuck off.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Mogwai, you seem to be too stupid even to read the articles that you link to.
I have no idea who you are, but you're very, very, *very* boring. And a total stalking psycho. Are you capable of making up a real life friend to follow round instead?
Or just fuck off.
Translation: I got caught flat-footed and it pisses me off. Rather than admit it, I lash out. I know this is what this means because I do it myself with some regularity.
Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kid Who Cracked:
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and then shipped to an island with all of the measles, mumps, smallpox, flu and polio the world can find. They do not deserve to live.
Thank you for saying my mother doesn't deserve to live. Very thoughtful. I'll keep that in mind at her funeral.
Blimey.
Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Mogwai, you seem to be too stupid even to read the articles that you link to.
I have no idea who you are, but you're very, very, *very* boring. And a total stalking psycho. Are you capable of making up a real life friend to follow round instead?
Or just fuck off.
Translation: I got caught flat-footed and it pisses me off. Rather than admit it, I lash out. I know this is what this means because I do it myself with some regularity.
Mousethief: he's not really engaging with my point the vaccine is currently not proven to be safe, and so may be more dangerous than the flu itself. Sqalene has been linked to GBS, for example.
But I don't especially *want* him to engage with it as he's such a prat. Yet if I say nothing, his one-sided nonsense goes unanswered.
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
:
'Engaging with my point'?
You wait until now to respond to your hell call, and you talk about others not engaging?
You've got a lot of points to engage with in this thread.
Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
But I don't especially *want* him to engage with it as he's such a prat. Yet if I say nothing, his one-sided nonsense goes unanswered.
Welcome to our world...
Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
'Engaging with my point'?
You wait until now to respond to your hell call, and you talk about others not engaging?
You've got a lot of points to engage with in this thread.
Wonderful. I shall count on your presence when I start my next thread on this topic in Purgatory. That's the section of the board people go to when they can string a sentence together.
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on
:
I'd recommend that you simply start with page one of this thread.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
But I don't especially *want* him to engage with it as he's such a prat. Yet if I say nothing, his one-sided nonsense goes unanswered.
You think that answered it? This explains much.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
'Engaging with my point'?
You wait until now to respond to your hell call, and you talk about others not engaging?
You've got a lot of points to engage with in this thread.
Nul points, merely a prick.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
Mousethief: he's not really engaging with my point the vaccine is currently not proven to be safe, and so may be more dangerous than the flu itself. Sqalene has been linked to GBS, for example.
wow, sister. you're really batshit crazy, aren't you?
for review: you posted a link that didn't make a point at all, though you put the "death by lovies" smiley there. which of course laid out an excellent argument.
iF noted that the link actually didn't support your crazy-as-fuck assertions, and asked if you'd even read the article.
then you pulled the playyard routine ala "Waaah! iF's picking on me!" And you say it's because he's not engaging with your point?
back the truck up, you cute little freak, you.
Either Mousethief's right and you're dodging a discussion on something you really haven't got a clue about, or you haven't got the intelligence to read plain english and are living in your own alternate reality based on mad scientists straight from the old comic books.
as much fun as it would be to believe that there is a world-wide conspiracy to turn us all into the X-men, my money's on Mousethief's hypothesis.
Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on
:
That's the problem:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mogwai is riding the anti-vaccination bandwagon. On a thread that was supposedly about Holy Communion, not pathetic pseudo-science.
The "As ever I respect what you have to say" line merely adds smug, smirking, insincerity to an already utterly nasty post.
Ken, you are about as far from being capable of objective conversation as it is possible to be.
After you wrote your last potty-mouthed, deeply, deeply unpleasant rant , I wrote you asking we could sort out our differences in pm like adults. No, you point-blank refused, after lapping up all the attention your hate-filled rant lavished on you.
Apparently there's a section in Romans which makes it ok to do whatever you want as long as you're in a bad mood.
As you know, at that time I told you I didn't want to hear from you again. Nice-going trying to ignore that and call me anyway. Man up and look around you. You are sixty-plus, but act like you're fourteen. I don't care what you do, just don't involve me.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
That's the problem:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mogwai is riding the anti-vaccination bandwagon. On a thread that was supposedly about Holy Communion, not pathetic pseudo-science.
The "As ever I respect what you have to say" line merely adds smug, smirking, insincerity to an already utterly nasty post.
Ken, you are about as far from being capable of objective conversation as it is possible to be.
KEN?! As far from -- sputter ---
Damsel, you drank the Kool-Aid and then ate the cup.
Posted by Otter (# 12020) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
As you know, at that time I told you I didn't want to hear from you again. Nice-going trying to ignore that and call me anyway. Man up and look around you. You are sixty-plus, but act like you're fourteen. I don't care what you do, just don't involve me.
(pat pat) Yes, I'm sure stamping your little feet about it is going to make him change his big-meanie ways, dear.
Oh, wait, the fruitcake that isn't gold or frankincense tried that "waah! You're disrupting my thread!" thing already. Might wanna do a reality-check on how well that worked for her...
Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
wow, sister. you're really batshit crazy, aren't you?
for review: you posted a link that didn't make a point at all, though you put the "death by lovies" smiley there. which of course laid out an excellent argument.
iF noted that the link actually didn't support your crazy-as-fuck assertions, and asked if you'd even read the article.
then you pulled the playyard routine ala "Waaah! iF's picking on me!" And you say it's because he's not engaging with your point?
back the truck up, you cute little freak, you.
Sweet bleedin Jesus...
1) What's crazy about pointing out the dangers of Squalene? Weren't you aware of them?
2)A vaccine that has been rushed through in a week as deomnstrably not been tested safe
3) If Squalene is as dangerous as it would appear then, no, he's not adding to the discussion by reiterating an assumption the deadly mild flu is the more threatening
4) How is pointing out someone is a stalking psycho and telling them to f'off 'tantamount' to a 'waah he's picking on me routine'?
quote:
Originally posted by Otter:
(pat pat) Yes, I'm sure stamping your little feet about it is going to make him change his big-meanie ways, dear.
Oh, wait, the fruitcake that isn't gold or frankincense tried that "waah! You're disrupting my thread!" thing already. Might wanna do a reality-check on how well that worked for her...
Sectagenarian baby-talk ways more like. And myrrh is cool.
I expect all you guys to show up in my next purgatory vaccination thread.
Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
4) How is pointing out someone is a stalking psycho and telling them to f'off 'tantamount' to a 'waah he's picking on me routine'?
Well for a start, you've not substantiated your claim that I'm a "stalking psycho". At the moment it looks like a lot of toys are being thrown around, but no real point is being made. Kind of like when a toddler wants some attention.
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
At the moment it looks like a lot of toys are being thrown around, but no real point is being made. Kind of like when a toddler wants some attention.
That would be hitting the nail on the head, IF. Now, if you'll pardon me, I have to go to an H1N1 Status Update meeting. Yes, for the rest of the world it's pretty much gone out of the news cycle, but for those of us who work in the medical fields, we are still seeing a significant drain on resources as people present with acute cases of the 'flu.
[ 15. December 2009, 19:58: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
Posted by Otter (# 12020) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
And myrrh is cool.
This explains so much...
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
1) What's crazy about pointing out the dangers of Squalene? Weren't you aware of them?
it's a relative danger issue. driving my car is dangerous too. so is heating with fuel. so is showering for that matter. some risk I'm willing to take for the overall benefit.
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
2)A vaccine that has been rushed through in a week as deomnstrably not been tested safe
I don't know the story here so can't comment on it. in general, however, vaccines are not a new idea or technology. there's always a risk, but I'm willing to weigh the individual risks myself and for my children. as I've said much earlier in this thread, I've experienced some of the diseases we have vaccines for - and i'm thankful my children have the vaccines.
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
3) If Squalene is as dangerous as it would appear then, no, he's not adding to the discussion by reiterating an assumption the deadly mild flu is the more threatening
but that's the point, fruitcake. he wasn't talking about squalene or anything else. he was showing that the link you posted to contradicted your arguments, didn't support them. he didn't reiterate any assumptions - he just showed you that you fucked up.
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
4) How is pointing out someone is a stalking psycho and telling them to f'off 'tantamount' to a 'waah he's picking on me routine'?
I've seen no evidence that iF is stalking anyone. you're making this shit up. you're whining is based on his calling your bluff, and you refusing to respond in a non-toddler manner. you can throw red herrings around all you like - the truth is still right there for all of us to see. you fucked up. he called you on it. the egg is all over your face.
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
I expect all you guys to show up in my next purgatory vaccination thread.
I'm happy to discuss and debate the relative merits of vaccination. I'm not going to waste my time, however, if you can't actually engage in a debate or listen to other people's arguments.
so far, I'm not convinced discussing this with you is worth my time.
Posted by pimple (# 10635) on
:
LC Commiserations.
Oops, it's hell. isn't it. Bloody well get well soon then.
[ 17. December 2009, 10:52: Message edited by: pimple ]
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Thanks! It was No.Fun. But it's over now.
Unlike the double ear infection I'm fussing about with now.
Posted by Mogwai (# 13555) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Presbyopic:
Come the mid 50's and early 60's and the sense of relief for parents was astounding. They finally had a weapon to protect their children against this childhood menace. Then followed more miracles for Diptheria, Whooping Cough and so on.
Weren't many anti vaxxers around back in those days. Just a lot of grateful parents with their children by their sides.
Presbyopic:
have heard polio only became a crippler in association with vaccination for other diseases - vaccination against diphtheria or smallpox increased the likelihood of someone developing paralytic polio, whereas it is normally a mild disease. The medical profession knew this, because in the 1950s diphtheria vaccination campaigns were halted during polio outbreaks.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
Resurrecting threads that have been idle for two months to make a point like that doesn't make the hellhosts happy. Resurrecting a thread after two months to resapond to a post made over 4 months ago makes us even less happy.
Thread closed.
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