Thread: HEAVEN: All Things Breadish Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
I have been infected by my viewing of the great British bake off, and the search for the perfect breakfast. I am now actively considering making bread.

But.

I have no experience, no equipment and a burning desire to find shortcuts.

Bread machines seem very expensive and not necessarily quicker. I have heard rumours of a no knead method ? And the possibility of making breads from nut flours, GBBO mentioned exotic phenomena known as "enriched doughs". I have heard of dough whisks and come across this.

I am hoping to harvest the wisdom of fellow shippies ...

[ 09. January 2015, 14:48: Message edited by: Firenze ]
 
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :
 
I use my breadmaker to do the hard work, then knock it back and do any fancy stuff by hand. It then has to prove for an hour before going into the oven.

It's not a terribly quick way of doing it as the breadmaker takes an hour and 35 minutes, so from raw ingredients to warm and fragrant loaf is around 3 hours. However, there is a 'Quick Dough' setting that takes just 6 minutes, which would make it very quick.

I have to admit that I haven't tried it because it seems impossibly quick - but it wouldn't be there if it didn't work!

It's just a basic breadmaker, and didn't cost very much - I've had it for years, but I think it was around £25-£30.

[ 12. October 2014, 21:08: Message edited by: Drifting Star ]
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
If you want your bread to rise well, you need gluten in the dough. I buy bread flour, which is high-gluten. When I make whole wheat bread, I add vital gluten. (I buy it in the grocery store.) I don't know how to bake with nut flour. I suspect you need to use primarily wheat flour to make it rise.

I have a bread machine which I bought twenty years ago. I don't remember what I paid for it, but I'm sure I got my money's worth.

Moo
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
The breadmaker is used for pizza dough and banana bread.

The good bread comes from a small bakery in Slaithwaite. We could never bake to their standard, especially the sweetened wholemeal and honey and sunflower loaves.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Slaithwaite is a fantastic name !
 
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I also make my dough in the breadmaker and shape and bake by hand, though I seldom prove mine afterwards for more than half hour (usually I don't leave it in the breadmaker for the full dough setting time either). I have a reasonably priced Morphy Richards Fastbake.
 
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :
 
I have no oven, so a bread maker is the only way my wife and I are going to have fresh bread. What brands of bread makers are good? Is it possible to get a good one for under $100? Any advice is welcome because I do love me some fresh bread. I am getting more and more dismayed at the quality (or lack thereof) with bagged bread purchased at the local Kroger or Walmart. Yuck.
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
I'm on my phone and links are a stone bitch, but over thataway in the recipe thread I posted my bread non-system. I find it very easy and low maintenance, though it evolved after lots of experience with the stuff so it may not be the place to start.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Found Comet's bread post.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
I have a fantasy of ground nuts and cocoa featuring in a no knead recipe.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I have been baking 3 to 6 loaves per week, most weeks, for going on 25 years. I do this at home,for about the first 15 years fully by hand, in the last 10 at home with a kitchen mixer, and when camping or at our cabin, by hand. Funny that this should come up just after I put the dough aside after the second mixing.

A few points. First, if using flour that contains gluten then some activity to develop the gluten to become elastic and smooth is required, but not if gluten free. Developing gluten by hand is either kneading, or roll and fold. Roll means rolling it dough out fully so it is less than 1/4" thick, folding it up, and repeating. I know people who use a pasta maker lasagna setting for this, but I do it by hand.

Second, modern bread recipes, either for by hand or via bread machine, try to hurry things along by using sugar and large quantities of yeast. This creates loaves that stale faster. Example: the most recent kitchen mixer came with a recipe book for a 2 loaf mix, wanting 2 tablespoons of yeast and 2 T of sugar. Traditional methods I use 2 teaspoons (t) for 3 loaves.

Third, all flours are not the same. Hard Canadian spring wheat is higher in protein and gluten than UK and USA flours. You need to get bread flour in the UK, whereas I can use any all purpose flour here.

Without writing a book on this, and feel free to PM me as well, here's my 'go to' method;

1. mix 1.5 cups of water with 1 t of yeast, add 2 cups of flour, stirring 100 times in the same direction. 1 cup of flour is about 140 g. It actually doesn't matter if it is approximate Put a plate or lid on a large mixing bowl and leave this aside for 12-48 hours in your kitchen (I've left it for up to a week, you have to stir it down to de-gas because the CO2 slows things: it will rise and collapse. Very goopy this step.

2. when ready to proceed, add another 1.5 c of water, 2 t of salt, 1 more t of yeast and 2 cups of flour and stir this. You can leave this aside for several days.

3. add enough flour to make a dough that doesn't stick to your hands. Because you did the stirring as described above, a lot of the gluten is already developed. You may roll and fold or knead at this step. Then put into a bowl with some oil to keep it from sticking and protect from drying and put a plastic bag over it. You may leave it in your kitchen or put it into the fridge. It may be left for a couple of days. f you're not ready to bake, you may knead it down.

4. divide into 3 pieces and put into oiled or buttered loaf pans, let rise and then bake.

5. baking. Put into a cold oven with a pan of water in the bottom, turn over to 425F (gas mark 6 or 7 = very hot), but you don't want gas flame or element hot above the loaves. Bake for about 18 mins and then lower to 325 of 300 (gas mark 2 or 3) and bake for another 18. Take out and put on a rack to cool.

Note: the cold oven means the bread will 'oven spring' more, with the hot temp at the start to give a really dark crust, and water keeps things hydrated and non-burning.

Monitoring bread in a oven you've not baked in before goes without saying. And also if you bake in a fire (I use a dutch oven) or on a gas barbeque. I have also baked on methanol (meths) alcohol stoves, but that's another story.

You can do the first steps easily in about 10 mins during the week (I often do it a breakfast on a weekday). The amounts of water and flour used, coupled with wait times, and baking with a pan of water in the oven, mean that the bread has a higher hydration percentage than other breads.

This keeps it fresher longer. You do not need to add sugar or a fat like oil or butter. I don't usually.

Recommend starting with mostly white, nonfancy flour for first attempts. You can add interesting and exciting ingredients later. This creates success which means you'll do it again. About half the people who have come to my house to learn stop after an attempt or two. It takes some commitments. I view it as a discipline, like going to church.

Sorry for the excess length of this post. If you want pictures, of essentially 'bread porn', let me know.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Yes please !
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Forgot to add this link: The Fresh Loaf website, lessons link .

thefreshloaf.com is a good resource but it is easy to get carried away by interest into excessively exotic things IMHO because so many professionals and bakers for a living post there.

PM for pictures and more detail if you want DT. It will be Tuesday at the earliest, we're at the lake for the Thanksgiving Long Weekend and have only cellular internet, sketchy at best. I am excited that people are excited about bread.

[ 12. October 2014, 22:02: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I've had years out of my £50 Panasonic.

Basic as it is, it has a delay start setting, so if you wanted a loaf fresh and quivering first thing, you could have it (though it's a bit difficult to slice). Generally I put a loaf on at dinner time, take it out and leave to cool before bed.

Or if you want freshly baked, there's always the oven-ready croissant (sorry, URL not viable under UBB). We told a French acquaintance about these and he exclaimed in a shocked tone 'That's terrific!' I suspect that was not quite the adjective he was going for.
 
Posted by Polly Plummer (# 13354) on :
 
I used to love kneading bread - a great release for aggressive feelings! - but now I'm on gluten-free I don't get the chance any more.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Do you not knead gluten free doughs ?
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Do you not knead gluten free doughs ?
No. Just mix. Lots of experience with it. One of my children has Coeliac (Celiac) Disease (gluten is toxic). It is very difficult to get texture just right, and the quality of bread is less than anything wheaten or glutenish. When she was visiting from the UK 2 weeks ago, we had to fumigate the kitchen, I made bread in advance to avoid glutenizing her. It is like kosher, except that the slip-ups would make her ill for several days to several weeks.

Best advice IMHO re gluten free bread is don't try to make a loaf at all, rather make flat breads and other things that don't try to pretend to be gluten containing bread.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
"Enriched Doughs" are anything other than flour, water, salt and yeast in a dough. Usually this is a "shortening" such as actual shortening, margarine, butter or eggs. These shorten the gluten strands of the bread interior, known as the crumb.

French Baguettes are a straight dough. Sandwich bread is an enriched dough as it contains eggs, usually.

The other way to cut down on kneading is to use a sponge, otherwise known as an indirect dough. You mix part of the flour, the yeast and the water (plus whatever else you added) and let that bubble up for 90 minutes. Then you add in the rest of the flour and the salt. The yeast develops the gluten strands in lieu of kneading. You'll still have to knead it a bit, but not as much.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
... if you wanted a loaf fresh and quivering first thing, you could have it (though it's a bit difficult to slice).
It's much easier with an electric knife.

Moo
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
We bought a bread-machine a few years ago (IIRC it was half-price in Canadian Tire and cost $50) and it's one of the best purchases we've ever made. After a few attempts with varying degrees of success at making the "machine-does-it-all" recipes we came to the conclusion that you want to be a spendthrift with the salt, and a miser with the yeast (we usually reduce the yeast amount by about a quarter from what's specified).

Then we discovered the "dough cycle" and the sheer unadulterated pleasure of making our own French sticks. The machine does the hard work, and you get to do the therapeutic bit - rolling and shaping it. It really doesn't bother me that it takes quite a while - I just go off and do something else while it gets on with it.

One or other of us makes a batch of three at least once a week, and D. makes focaccia for sandwiches, which is also v. nice.

I really can't stress enough the feeling of achievement I get when I take the bread out of the oven. Also, a single French stick costs around $2 at the supermarket; a 10kg bag of flour costs less than $10 at Costco and makes about 45 sticks.

You do the maths ... [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Everyday bread is bread machine (Morphy Richards). But I am really creative with additions - sprouts, apple, carrot, seeds, nuts, oats, garlic, herbs, different oils, etc)

Friday bread (challah) is made by young Galilon. He does the dough in the BM then kneads and plaits the loaves by hand.

Special occasions - no knead whole wheat (Alison Holst) with topppings eg salt+kelp mix, oats, seeds, etc

Been making our own for many years - on the 3rd BM or maybe 4th
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
I use my 30+ year old Kenwood chef to make most bread dough, then knead by hand both times.

Dough for things like croissants and brioches I do on a very large board.

I try to use superfine flour - usually either bought across the channel or from a deli in Cardiff; wholemeal flour I sometimes get from a mill at a (fairly local) museum.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
It seems all you regular bread makers, bar no prophet, do use a machine.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
I don't use a machine, although I don't count as a regular breadmaker any more (I should start making my own again, it's much nicer). I have two basic recipes - one for wholemeal or brown dough that I usually make into rolls and a really nice one for Italian flatbread that uses olive oil instead of margarine and is very quick to mix up (PM me if you want it).

Still takes about an hour to rise plus half an hour or so proving time, though. I am not an expert, but I thought the point of a breadmaking machine was that you could put all the ingredients in it and then go off and do something else for three hours while it made the bread for you? If you're making it by hand, you can go off and do something else while the dough is rising but you have to keep going back to it.

I've never had good results from those packs of dry-mix yeast, though; I always use the old-fashioned stuff that you have to reactivate in water or milk before you mix it into the flour (because I'm too shy to walk into a baker's and ask them to sell me some fresh yeast).
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
It more 4 to 5 hours on my machine, but yes, provided you've been accurate about quantities, there is your lovely, warm loaf. Given the problems with my hands, and the lack (in winter) of a reliably warm place for proving, I doubt if I could make bread otherwise.

The downside is that machines can be a bit fussy if you try and tinker too much with the recipe. That said, I must go and start a loaf: chilli and Parmesan or a sultana brioche? Decisions, decisions....
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
When we had a breadmaker it was only used for mixing and kneading anyway.

Semi-wholemeal rolls are our favourite although the Italian recips are gaining in popularity, and Olive bread, which has whole pitted olives in is a meal in itself.

Many find breadmaking, including the physical aspects of kneading and knocking-back, rewarding in themselves. Then there's the bread!
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
I used to have a breadmaker but got rid of it. Results were varied, it used space I didn't have, and frankly I couldn't be bothered with it. I also hated the hole in the middle where the paddle was.

I'd periodically made bread by hand, but a couple of years ago my maternity leave coincided with me getting into the GBBO. I bought a copy of Paul Hollywood's 'How to Bake' and ended up making a lot of bread.

Something about his basic recipe just clicked. The book is full of useful information too.

It does help if you have the sort of day you can mix a bit, knead a bit, leave a bit, knead a bit, but it's less than 20 minutes of actual work.

Sadly, full time working + toddler care means I'm making lots less bread than I was, but i am definitely an advocate of hand making it. Kneading is great for getting rid of problems.

Having said that, I do rather lust over the mixers (kitchenaid) they use on gbbo. I really do have better things to spend £400 on though....
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
When we lived in West Africa many years ago, it was often difficult to buy bread, although we sometimes had flour. So we asked friends to send out tiny sachets of dried yeast in their airmail letter (this could be done within the permitted weight).

On the first occasion that my wife made bread, she "killed" the yeast by adding water that was too hot. The result was that - unlike Jesus - it failed to rise and was solid as a rock. Mind you, it could have made a good building brick.

What a waste of our precious flour!

A breadmaker would have been useless, as our electricity supply was unpredictable.

[ 13. October 2014, 14:08: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I went with plain brioche. I've just had a slice. Maybe I'll just ditch making dinner and curl up with the rest, a knife and a pound of butter.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
... the lack (in winter) of a reliably warm place for proving ...
That was what put us off doing our own for a while, but you can put it in the oven with just the oven-light on, or if you've got an airing-cupboard that would probably work.
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
... you can go off and do something else while the dough is rising but you have to keep going back to it ...
I don't find the time-intervals too bad: the machine takes an hour and a half to mix and knead the dough (during which I quite often doze off [Hot and Hormonal] ); during the 10-15 minutes for it to rest I clear up the bread-machine pan/prepare baking tray/whatever; once it's rolled and shaped, I clean the work-surface and go and watch TV or read a book until I need to turn on the oven. If I'm watching TV the time-intervals can usually be measured by commercial-breaks ... [Big Grin]

I admit it's a bit less convenient than just chucking everything in and waiting, but boy, is it worth it. [Smile]
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The weather here being absolutely foul I've just spent a pleasant afternoon making croissants: I freeze them uncooked. I would have made some pain su chocolat but the chocolate sausages I thought were in the cupboard have vanished - perhaps something to do with number 2 son paying a flying visit over the weekend?
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
My concern would be that it would bump up electricity bills having a device running for several hours. It would probably be cheaper to make the stuff yourself then just bake it.

I used to make my own loaves years ago by way of an experiment. They all turned out small, crumbly and dense which was why I gave up, but they smelt nice baking and eaten straight out of the oven with butter they weren't too bad.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I can't think the energy expenditure is that great. There's the initial 10 minutes or so of mixing/kneading, then sitting at a very low temperature, another couple of minutes kneading, more sitting about, and a final 30 minutes or so when the thing heats up and actually bakes.

I don't doubt they all come with energy efficiency scores these days.

I tend to see the saving not only in the lower cost of materials, but less wastage. We buy a supermarket loaf, often the last quarter gets chucked, after hanging round the breadbin, losing what little charm it possessed. A homemade loaf gets eaten to the crusts (which get rendered for breadcrumbs).
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Since I first came by a bread machine a few years ago, I've hardly ever bought bread. For years I had one made by LG which was excellent but eventually wore out, and they stopped making bread machines years ago.

My general purpose loaf is ¾ wholemeal and ¼ white flour. All wholemeal comes out like a brick. I also use molasses instead of ordinary sugar and olive oil instead of lard.

Something I've never tried is whether there is any way of using either green yeast or a sourdough yeast instead of dried granulated yeast in a bread machine. Besides, it seems to be a bit difficult to find green yeast these days. Has anyone else tried?

I've no experience of the Lakeland gadget Doublethink linked to in the OP and would be intrigued to hear any verdict on it.


I'm intrigued. What is 'shortening'? There was an old song from long ago that referred to something called 'shortening bread' but I don't think we use the word here. Is it something we don't know, or something we call something else like other mysterious words such as zucchini and faucet?
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I have had 2 breadmakers in the past. The first I wore out before starting on my current mode. The second never used. The product acceptable but not the same as a slow-made traditional method. One of my sisters in law uses one. The weight per volume is less which is about hydration ( proportion of water to flour). And the quantity would mean having to run it probably every 2nd day.

The flour like things I add to bread includes rolled oats, ground flax, buckwheat, cracked rye, barley, quinoa, amaranth, millet, sorgum, and various ground bean flours. You have experiment with amounts due to wanting flavour but preserve volume. What ever is available to you is worth trying.

More recent experiments have included foccacia types of bread which means flat, at about 1.5" to 2". Herbs, olives, sundried tomatoes, peppers, various spices. The family likes Grand Marnier cinnamon buns. Which is yet another story.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Doublethink.

Here is a book about no-knead, machine-less bread making.
I have not used this book myself, but have eaten breads made from it and they were very good.
If you wish to "try before you buy", here is one recipe.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Sounds lovely. My difficulty would be finding anywhere in the house with a constant 70 F for 18 hours.
 
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
quote:
My concern would be that it would bump up electricity bills having a device running for several hours.
My bread machine is cheaper to run (because a lot smaller!) than my elec oven, and holds the right temp for proving and cooking with a thermostat controlling the element in a feedback loop, as they all will. Power for one med-size loaf (3 cups flour) comes in at about 9p or 1/3 kWH over a 3hr cycle. Using 45p/1.5kg bread flour I used to be able to get, the bread was ~30p a loaf - better than anything except occasional 'end of life' supermarket bread. Now bread flour price has doubled, so maybe we're more like 45p per loaf. Main thing for me is it cuts down 'emergency' trips to the shops, especially now I keep UHT for when I run out of milk. I live in the city - if I had my brother-in-law's 6 mile round trip to the corner shop, this would be an even bigger advantage.

Top tip - use (cheap) non-instant baker's yeast - in the UK it's usually the Allinson stuff in the little yellow cylindrical tin. Put a cup of water into microwave for 2 mins. When it comes out near-boiling, use 3/4 to pre-heat all your ingredients in bread machine EXCEPT yeast and sugar. Add any sugar in your recipe to remaining 1/4, make up to just over 1/2 cup with cold water (should feel warm to very warm). Add tsp yeast - so long as you haven't killed it with too much heat, it will be frothing over cup top in a couple of minutes.

Oh - and ETA that bread machines, like slow cookers, and things people fail to bond with and then sell on ebay. When paddle bearing in my bread pan finally dies completely, that's where the next one is coming from.

[ 13. October 2014, 19:32: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
First ever batch of dough left to rise (after 10 min kneading) at 20:30 [Yipee]

Should be risen by the end of New Tricks [Big Grin]

(Really enjoyed the kneading)

[ 13. October 2014, 19:39: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

Oh - and ETA that bread machines, like slow cookers, and things people fail to bond with and then sell on ebay. When paddle bearing in my bread pan finally dies completely, that's where the next one is coming from.
There's a whole category of exchange goods, as the anthropologists would say - toasted sandwich makers and cheap espresso machines and heated hostess trays. We used always to nip to the big Sunday car boot sale any time we wanted Martini glasses...

I wouldn't mind if my present machine packed in - as next time I'd like one that has the rye bread/sourdough settings.
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
It has been years since I made bread regularly (through a recent project was gluten-free crackers), but the topic has come up a couple times in the last week.

I started with sourdough bread in college: the rising times are longer, and I could fit it in between classes. Typically I'd make up the dough in the evening, punch it down and kneed it in the morning, let it rise during my first class, then bake it in time for lunch. I also tried some quickbread recipes (soda bread, bannock, etc.) that didn't require rising, that I would bake in the morning and take with me for lunch when there wasn't enough time between classes. I also used the same dough for pizza.

I do it all by hand - gives me a better feel for the dough. (Also allows me to work out my agressions while kneeding.)

We tried a bread machine about 15 years ago, with the hope of waking up in the morning to the smell of fresh bread. It never worked - usually the water in the machine would cool too much overnight before it turned on so the yeast didn't rise fast enough.

Now I'm the only one in the house who eats much bread, so there isn't much demand. But maybe I'll have to try again at some point...
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
Enoch, no one has answered your question about shortening. I guess most people are still asleep in northern climes, but it's Tuesday morning down here.

Shortening always used to mean some fat that was incorporated into the dough in scones, biscuits, pastry etc. I guess the meaning may now have broadened to include oils etc. my mother and her family used clarified dripping from the baking pan after a roast. Carefully saved and boiled up to clarify. Lard, fats of other kinds, margarine, butter which gives a much better flavour than margarine.

Shortening adds flavour and texture and helps baked good to last longer.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
First batch goes in the oven in 15 min ....
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
Waiting anxiously to see how it turned out, Doublethink.!

Many, many moons ago, I made all my bread by hand. It was good stuff! Where I lived at that time was ideal for yeasty breads. (We raised the dough in a bowl on top of the fridge with a damp tea towel on top.)

About ten years or so ago, I bought a bread machine, and I really liked having the fresh bread whenever I wanted...it just didn't have the texture or taste of my home made. When the children had flown the nest, I didn't use it anymore, since bread isn't on my list of "foods I should be eating".

I gave the machine to a friend, and he seems to be very pleased with it!
 
Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
I use my big Kenwood with the dough hook. I'm also a big fan of Dan Lepard, who revolutionised my breadmaking by suggesting you didn't need to knead much at all.

This means I do all the usual beginning stuff up to finishing mixing all the ingredients, then run the Kenwood on low for about a minute. Rest for 10 minutes, run the Kenwood for 30 seconds. Repeat twice, while finishing the washing, vacuuming or whatever, then rise as normal.

Once risen, punch it down and knead in the machine for another minute. Leave to rise again, shape, etc, etc.

Once you get used to the extreme stickiness of the mixture, the bread is lovely - very moist. Dan commented that he had accidentally forgotten about a batch of loaves he was making when he was a young sprout and has never done lengthy kneading subsequently.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
We used share breadmaking until Dlet was born and Madame has taken it over almost entirely since. In the old days, as they say, we'd bake on the weekends, using a dough made with the Kenwood and its dough hook. For the last 10 years or so, Madame has used a bread machine to make the dough and then formed baked the loaves by hand and baked them in the oven. The advantage of the machine is that she can put the ingredients into the machine, set it to dough only, and then set the timer to have the dough ready at a time which suits her. In between, she can go and play tennis, chat in a coffee shop or even attend to her business. If the recipe calls for milk, and it will be quite a while before the start time, she will use water and put an appropriate amount of milk powder on top of the flour. At the set time, she turns the oven on, forms the loaf, lets it stand until the oven reaches its heat and then bakes.

Australian flour is hard, much harder than English, and the bread rises well. It also takes more liquid than an English loaf, so if she's using a recipe from Elizabeth David, for example, Madame has to make adjustments. There are at least 2 good brands of flour readily available here. One comes in large packets - 5 or 10 kg - the other is unbleached and comes in a 1 kg plastic container with a screw top lid. Both are available in supermarkets, where reliable wholemeal flour can also be bought. More specialised flours, such as rye, buckwheat, soy and so forth, come from health food shops.

Something to avoid is "bread improver". OK, it will help the bread rise, but we find it leaves a chemical flavour. You can get the same sort of result by adding a small amount of lemon juice and get a much better flavour. Never tried it, but the idea has just come to me that if you were making a sweet bread, a small amount of something like raspberry vinegar, or orange juice, would go well.
.
Finally, allow time. A quickly risen bread has no opportunity to gain flavour from the yeast and the fermentation process. Ms David's book describes the great loss of flavour in commercially available bread which followed the adoption of the Chorleywood method, in which the dough was gently shaken to promote rising in a quarter the time for a traditionally made bread. Flavour and texture both vanish.
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
quote:
Chorleywood method, in which the dough was gently shaken to promote rising in a quarter the time for a traditionally made bread. Flavour and texture both vanish.
The gluten content is also affected. Coeliac granddaughter can eat slow rise bread and sour dough where both have over 20 hours rising. Quickrise bread affects her.

If I make it now, I mix in machine and set aside in fridge. A couple of days later, I allow it to rise a couple of hours at room temperature, shape and bake. I have used sourdough starter and also used bread with yeast in this way.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
How can the gluten content be affected? Where does the excess gluten go in the slow process? Or where does it come from in the Chorleywood?
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Just took out my latest experiment - I added dried wakame (a Japanese sea-weed)
I added it to the water in the Bread Machine - next time will leave it to re-hydrate completely as the loaf turned out like a Post Modern sculpture from an avant-garde gallery!

The best thing about home-made bread is that it is always edible. Unless you forgot the yeast which has been known in this household. You just learn what (or what not) to do next time.
 
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :
 
I don't know anything about the gluten issue, but the Chorleywood method is also thought* to be responsible for a big increase in numbers of people suffering with IBS and acid reflux in recent years (and a number of other things that escape me at the moment because they don't have a personal impact).

*Disputed by the industry, but the repeated experience of someone close to me supports the idea.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
I don't know anything about the gluten issue, but the Chorleywood method is also thought* to be responsible for a big increase in numbers of people suffering with IBS and acid reflux in recent years (and a number of other things that escape me at the moment because they don't have a personal impact).

*Disputed by the industry, but the repeated experience of someone close to me supports the idea.
Thought by whom I wonder - my acid reflux started after we got a breadmaker and mostly stopped eating Chorleywood process commercially produced bread.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I had to stop eating home-made bread, as it messed up my guts, but the shop stuff is OK, I assume because everything is pulverized to extinction in the process.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Dough hooks. Not something I'd thought about before this morning, when I bought a new hand-held mixer (something I do approximately every 40 years). Besides the beaters, it came with these two other things - but instructions not to run them for more than 3 minutes, which doesn't seem very long.

Anyone deployed hand mixer/hooks in making bread?
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
"Shortening" is a kind of cooking fat, similar to lard.

See Wiki

Crisco, the common one I use is solidified canola and palm oil extracts.

Fried Chicken is often baked in melted shortening.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I have uploaded some bread photos to photobucket. Here's some links to them. Probably the most interesting folder is the pictures of finished baked-up loaves so I linked to that.

Pictures of loaves. (There is one of perogis in there as well, they are a Polish-Ukrainian sort of pasta-like thing.)

In the folder list, you will see also that there are a couple of pictures of dutch oven-open fire, pitas, with the 'large whole wheat' folder showing a sequence of steps.

I did put labels on the files as I exported from the photo program but I don't know how to get them to show up.

[ 14. October 2014, 17:34: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
 
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Thought by whom I wonder - my acid reflux started after we got a breadmaker and mostly stopped eating Chorleywood process commercially produced bread.
Googling turns up a vast number of articles in newspapers (Guardian, Telegraph, Independent), all quoting different people. This article from the Telegraph says that research is not being done because there is no-one to fund it. The only interested party with the necessary money is the baking industry, and they really don't want to.

However, looking at the basics, the Chorleywood Process involves 3 or 4 times as much yeast as traditionally made bread, and yeast is known to be a cause of IBS. It also denies the bread fermentation time, which is necessary for the wheat to become more digestible. Indigestible fibre is also a known cause of IBS.

Anecdotally (well, based on personal experience, but that makes an anecdote for you), Starman's IBS symptoms come on specifically and ferociously when he eats bread which has been made by the Chorleywood Process, but he has no problem whatsoever with other bread containing the same ingredients. We have no doubt at all as to the cause.

Less has been written about the connection with acid reflux, but it can be similarly susceptible to yeast. I occasionally have acid reflux after eating bread, but I think it is much harder to pin down.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
First batch goes in the oven in 15 min ....
Have you taken it out yet? How was it?
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Twas good [Big Grin]

Now I must make chocolate bread ...
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Apparently just substituting cocoa for flour makes dough verrrry sloppy. And should mix dough with a spoon, not fingers ...
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Keep adding flour until the dough is the right consistency. It should still work.

(Chocolate bread?! Eww...)
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I don't understand how a slow rising could somehow affect the gluten content of the bread. After all, it's the manner in which the gluten traps the gases that enables the dough to rise.

As for the Chorleywood method causing IBS, and all other ailments, I think I'd like to see some properly tested evidence. It does not produce a flavoursome loaf with good texture, but that does not mean that it causes the common cold. It may - but where's the evidence?
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Keep adding flour until the dough is the right consistency. It should still work.

(Chocolate bread?! Eww...)
I did, I did - ended up being a cup ful !

Possibly substituting golden syrup for sugar, nut butter for butter and adding cinnamon and freeze dried coffee may have also effected things. First rise, rose though [Smile]
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Gluten can be developed into long or short strands, and, the crumb (texture) of the bread is affected by the proportion of water:flour. Chains of gluten develop from a chemical reaction in the loaf unrelated to yeast, but affected by how long the flour and water are together, and at what temperature.

If you stir equal amounts of flour and water together with not very much yeast (100% hydration), and then put in a cool place like the fridge, you give the gluten/protein in the flour a chance to react with the water. If you have thoroughly kneaded the flour and then allow it to rise in a warm place versus a fridge, the product will have developed the gluten, but in short chains. Hence different crumb.

Have a look at the "bread porn" pictures I posted above in this thread. These were all started on a Friday, usually in the morning, as a preferment/sponge/biga/poolish (words used depend on baker, country, proportion of water to flour), left for 12-24 hours in the kitchen, mixed with additional flour and generally put into the fridge for 24 hours. Then out, briefly kneaded, shaped and baked. The loaves in my pictures don't look a lot like store bought do they?
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
They look incredible [Smile]
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
quote:
I don't understand how a slow rising could somehow affect the gluten content of the bread. After all, it's the manner in which the gluten traps the gases that enables the dough to rise.
Very patchy net access here after last night's storm, but I have seen articles on this and know that granddaughter is fine with very slow rise bread. Some years ago, she was hospitalised several times before coeliac disease was suspected. I am not saying the quick rise causes stomach problems. They are an entirely different matter whether it's IBS or coeliac problems.

Hope this goes through. Access drops out frequently.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
Very patchy net access here after last night's storm, but I have seen articles on this and know that granddaughter is fine with very slow rise bread. Some years ago, she was hospitalised several times before coeliac disease was suspected. I am not saying the quick rise causes stomach problems. They are an entirely different matter whether it's IBS or coeliac problems.

Hope this goes through. Access drops out frequently.
Hope your storm situation settles! One of my adult children was diagnosed with Coeliac/Celiac Disease after a GI infection, there are several different reactions and they test for response to different molecules. I suspect in your grandchild, she reacts to one/some and not the others. And the slow rise nonreactivity means she digests the long molecules okay but not the shorter ones. Some would call her 'gluten sensitive' versus coeliac. We were pretty upset with the diagnosis with my child, particularly because baking together has always been a father-child activity. We're merely moving on though, mostly to things that don't look like loaves. (If you can imagine cooking together over skype, while she is in England and I'm on the Canadian prairies)
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
... Crisco, the common one I use is solidified canola and palm oil extracts. ...
Sorry, canola is another of these mystery words. Is it what we call oil seed rape? Or is it something different that we don't have?

Palm oil is rather controversial here at the moment.

It sounds, by the way, as though shortening is a sort of vegetarian lard, rather in the way one can get vegetarian suet. Is that right?
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
They look incredible [Smile]
Please take and post some photos of your bread! Being a baking voyeur, photos please!!

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
... Crisco, the common one I use is solidified canola and palm oil extracts. ...
Sorry, canola is another of these mystery words. Is it what we call oil seed rape? Or is it something different that we don't have?

Palm oil is rather controversial here at the moment.

It sounds, by the way, as though shortening is a sort of vegetarian lard, rather in the way one can get vegetarian suet. Is that right?
Canola is a created word from Canada and oil, because the oil from canola plants is rather different from ancestral rape seed plants due to conventional breeding ("rape" comes from rapine, which means related rivers). The main issues are disease resistance as the plants grow, and lowering of the eurcic acid. Erucic acid is linked to some suggested health problems with cancers and the heart. The name change was also stimulated by the word "rape" in the name, a false friend but identical word. Canola and rape seed are relatives of mustard. Canola is a good frying oil, doesn't smoke at high temps.

We assume that 100% of canola oil contains GMOs, due to Monsanto's 'Round-up Ready' seed dominating the market. They can spray to kill all other plants. Consequently, even though we live in an area where canola is a major crop and canola oil is by far the cheapest, we don't use it all. I don't generally add any fat to bread, just a little grape seed oil to oil the dough for the second rise.

If you need a solid fat, my tendency is to recommend unsalted butter versus any manipulated oils or fats.

[ 14. October 2014, 22:45: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Twas good [Big Grin]

Now I must make chocolate bread ...
Add coarse flakes of sea salt to the bread just before baking. It will enhance the chocolate flavour.

[ 14. October 2014, 22:53: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
That would probably have helped - it has come out mainly cinnamony.
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
... Crisco, the common one I use is solidified canola and palm oil extracts. ...
Sorry, canola is another of these mystery words. Is it what we call oil seed rape? Or is it something different that we don't have?

Palm oil is rather controversial here at the moment.

It sounds, by the way, as though shortening is a sort of vegetarian lard, rather in the way one can get vegetarian suet. Is that right?
Not downunder. It's not a new term by any means in baking. Not just for bread, but biscuits etc. I can remember reading it when I first started cooking and that was a long time ago. Here it was some form of fat, butter, lard, dripping etc. It gave flavour and increased keeping quality of baked goods. Very few people used margarine when I was young. There was social disapproval of it as being lower class and it tasted even worse than it does now.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
No Prophet, those loaves look wonderful. Bread porn indeed! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Shortening is a general reference to a fat which is solid through a wide range of room temperatures - butter, lard, suet and so forth are natural ones; margarine is manufactured. Shortbread biscuits are biscuits (US cookies) with a lot of shortening in them. If you sue butter, the result can be delicious, less so with margarine. Lard or suet would be useful in savoury biscuits, not sure how they would go in sweet. If you use a very high proportion of shortening, the dough can become difficult to work with unless you rest it in the fridge from time to time. Easier to do with plain (US general purpose) flour than with self-raising.

The naughty little puppy of the eponymous book was denied strawberry shortcakes for his tea. They would have been cakes with a very high butter content.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Sort of tangent alert - except it isn't a tangent - wait and see

Something I've started to get a bit irritated by recently has been when one orders food in a pub or a restaurant, and it arrives with everything, and especially any mushrooms, tasting of nuts. i.e. the spread of varieties of nut oil where rather a strong flavour of ground nuts seems to be regarded as a point in its favour, something that actually makes the food taste better. IMHO it doesn't.

Anyway, what I'm suggesting is that unless you really like the flavour of nuts with everything, and want your bread to taste of it, don't choose to add an oil with a strong nutty flavour.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Olive oil is marvellous in bread - good flavour and the crust is excellent in flavour, crustiness* and colour.

*Why, oh why, is bread on a menu and so forth always described as crusty when almost invariably it is not? An easy way to get steam into the oven and thus a good crust is to place a shallow pan of boiling water on a lower shelf just as you put the loaves in.
 
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
Yes, I tend to use olive oil in my breads too.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Olive oil is marvellous in bread - good flavour and the crust is excellent in flavour, crustiness* and colour.

*Why, oh why, is bread on a menu and so forth always described as crusty when almost invariably it is not? An easy way to get steam into the oven and thus a good crust is to place a shallow pan of boiling water on a lower shelf just as you put the loaves in.
Yes, and use hotter temperatures. I bake most loaves and buns for half the time at about 450°F (230°C, gas mark 8) depending on the oven. Pitas, which go directly on to an oven rack start at 575°F (about 300°C or as hot as the oven will go, gas mark 9.

A convection oven (heats with a fan) is good for this, as it circulates the heat well. People talk of steaming the oven, meaning spraying the sides with water, but you lose the steam when opening, whilst a pan of water keeps steaming. A pan of water is essential if baking bread on a gas barbeque. They are hard to control temp with, and the water prevents scorching.

We could discuss ovens as a tangent. We bought a Kitchen Aid convection oven about 12 years ago. Expensive, but worth every penny. Convection cooks 25 to 50°F lower than conventional. --funny how I use °F for cooking. Nowhere else.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I had my first attempt at making a braided loaf this afternoon - I used the French stick recipe in the bread machine, divided it in three and plaited it - and it really doesn't look bad for a first go.

[Smile]
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Pictures please people!! The pornobread cannot be just my exhibtionism! Voyeurs want to look. Want to taste too but thats more difficult.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
We have a double oven stove, both ovens being convection. They distribute heat and steam beautifully. I talked about a steaming pan in my long post on page 1.

As a variation and if it fits her particular timetable for the day, Madame sometimes makes bread according to a recipe distributed by Lothlorien's brother. In that, the proven dough is formed into its loaf, rested for 10 minutes and then put into a cold oven, turned very high. Madame will fill half of a rectangular unglazed terracotta dish* with water before she goes out, and forms the loaf in the drained dish. That's safe to put into a cold oven - I suspect it might crack if put into a hot - and gives a good supply of steam all around the loaf while baking.

* In fact she uses half the Römertopf (hope that's not advertising, there are other makes on the market here).
 
Posted by itsarumdo (# 18174) on :
 
The traditional monastic wine and bread consisted of nettle and mugwort infused wine and bread baked containing the "herb of grace" - Rue. An efficient binary mind altering combination, with the bread releasing alkaloids from the rue. Only small quantities recommended (the quantities were very strictly prescribed).
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Pictures please people!!
I took a photograph of it on my mobile, but because I'm a complete technomoron I don't know how to get it from there to the computer - I don't think my charging-cable does anything except charge the batteries. Will look into it. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on :
 
Email it to yourself?

(Or get a Mac and iPhone and photos mysteriously sync automatically thanks to the wonder that is PhotoStream. But that may be a bit excessive as a solution to a one photo issue.)
 
Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :
 
Shortening is really an American term and not used much here. It is as said white fat but can be used for any fat that is used in cooking.
I am a hands on guy. I will use the mixer to bring the bread together but like to kneed by hand. My mum and dad used to have a bread maker but I really didn't like hole left by the paddle.
Won't get one.
 
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
There are different types of IBS which may explain the different reactions to Chorleywood bread. Personally I can't handle seeded or wholegrain bread (or pulses) because high fibre content upsets my stomach. White sliced bread is fine as far as I can tell. Btw since I mentioned it on the cooking thread, my coeliac tests came back negative.

For sandwiches, I prefer a wrap for optimum filling-to-bread ratio. Does anyone have a good tortilla recipe? I am happy to be authentic and use lard [Smile] Edited to add that flour tortillas are preferred, though I'm sure I could hunt cornmeal down - not much of an ethnic population where I live so the supermarket world food aisles are rubbish.

[ 16. October 2014, 16:00: Message edited by: Pomona ]
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
We make chapatis from atta which is basically a fairly fine wheat meal with a pinch of salt and a little warm water - knead for 10 minutes. Great chapatis and great for a sort of quesadilla. My problem is that I try to stuff too much into the quesadilla, but then I am well known as a little piggy when it comes to food.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
We can buy atta in supermarkets here, in the same sort of canisters as the 1 kg bread flour. Madame uses it in place of wholemeal flour in all sorts of recipes. Works well.

[ 17. October 2014, 02:41: Message edited by: Gee D ]
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
We can buy atta in supermarkets here, in the same sort of canisters as the 1 kg bread flour. Madame uses it in place of wholemeal flour in all sorts of recipes. Works well.
I sometimes substitute atta as part of flour in flatbread recipes.

As Gee D has said, it's readily available in supermarkets, as are other types of flours. Spelt etc.

I have been making bread type baked goods since I was about ten. I started when mum was out and she returned to fresh hot cross buns. I bought the River Cottage bread book a couple of years ago and found it useful.

[ 17. October 2014, 06:39: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
We have discovered large wraps / tortillas made of teff (the smallest food grain, used in Ethiopian injera flatbread.) While gluten-free, it is stronger than traditional wheat or corn/maize tortillas and rarely splits.

Conveniently a large wrap fits into our electric toaster (designed for two slices of bread end-to-end) when folded over, and comes out like a large taco shell ready to be stuffed with fish / scrambled eggs / shredded pork / hummus and mint or whatever else strikes our fancy.


But then, we have many types of flours readily available - if it isn't in the store we can head over to Bob's Red Mill and pick it up. And they have recipes, too.

[WARNING] Link may cause irrational urges to bake something. Cook responsibly. [/WARNING]

Side note:
Yes, the smiling Bob shown on the packages is still involved in the day-to-day operation of the Red Mill and the rest of the company. But he no longer owns it - at his 81st birthday party he gave the company to his employees.

[ 17. October 2014, 19:02: Message edited by: Carex ]
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
The problem with buying flour is that if it isn't white, unbleached or whole wheat flour, it is sold in very small quantities here, usually 2 kg or if lucky 5, and at rather high prices. The gluten-free flours are 4× the cost

I prefer 20 kg bags of flour (~44 lbs) which are about $12. I have a line on some organic Red Fife and Marquis (a variety of Red Fife) which should be really fun to try, and tasty.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The problem with buying flour is that if it isn't white, unbleached or whole wheat flour, it is sold in very small quantities here, usually 2 kg or if lucky 5, and at rather high prices. The gluten-free flours are 4× the cost

I prefer 20 kg bags of flour (~44 lbs) which are about $12. I have a line on some organic Red Fife and Marquis (a variety of Red Fife) which should be really fun to try, and tasty.
Yes, we have this problem. Ordinary shops don't sell flour in decent quantities, rather than the standard 2kg bags.
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
I think I'm right in saying that we can buy flour loose here, so name the quantity!

We also buy wheat and take it to the mill so we get our own even if it isn't really. At least we know for certain what goes into it.


edited to make sense [Roll Eyes]

[ 18. October 2014, 12:21: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
 
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
Enoch, you should be able to find big bags of atta (chapati) flour in most UK supermarkets, in the world food aisle with the Indian food.

And yes, I should be able to find atta here, I will have a look.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The problem with buying flour is that if it isn't white, unbleached or whole wheat flour, it is sold in very small quantities here, usually 2 kg or if lucky 5, and at rather high prices. The gluten-free flours are 4× the cost

I prefer 20 kg bags of flour (~44 lbs) which are about $12. I have a line on some organic Red Fife and Marquis (a variety of Red Fife) which should be really fun to try, and tasty.
Holy crap ! I could *never* eat that much bread. I made two loaves and I am having to do radical things to finish them.

I am trying to upload bread pics to a blog but having some technical difficulties - will link when I have (limited) bread porn available.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
It's not all bread. There's also pasta, cookies, bread sticks, muffins, crackers, bannock. I'm kind of on a "make it yourself" anarcho-primitivist tack in my boat these days, except the people with that philosophy usually want to eat like they presumed stone-age people did; we're on a non-low fat, much less meat version of a 19th century diet. We just try to have no packaged, pre-made foods, but not overly strict about it. Eat local is also of it. We have grains and pulses that are local in the plant department, and local vegetables for about 2 months except crab and small apples. Not much else. Everything else is transported very long distances.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Olive oil is marvellous in bread - good flavour and the crust is excellent in flavour, crustiness* and colour.
I have started using sesame oil - it is amazingly smooooth and has a beautiful aroma...
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Here we can buy "tiger bread" which has a crust brushed with sesame oil before baking, which gives the finished loaf something of a stripy, mottled appearance. A good tiger loaf smells wonderful and it's quite hard to limit yourself to "just one more slice".
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Enoch, you should be able to find big bags of atta (chapati) flour in most UK supermarkets, in the world food aisle with the Indian food.
Is chapati flour strong or weak? Can you make bread that will rise properly with it?

Something that has puzzled me for a long time. We're often told that local flour isn't good for bread but is excellent for cakes and that strong flour which comes from the Canadian prairies makes better bread, but is no good for cakes and pastries. I've been told it's something to do with the difference between our climate and very cold winters + dry summers. If so, what did people make bread with back when all flour was local? And if so, how is it that the French and Italians can make bread out of their own flours?

I did try once to make some bread with ordinary flour, and the experts are right. It doesn't rise properly.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If so, what did people make bread with back when all flour was local?
It was bread Jim, but not as we know it... Much of medieval England, for example, subsisted on spelt bread, which seems to have been the consistency of set porridge. Not all bread was leavened, and when it was, yeast was not the only raising agent.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Given they drank weak beer, I am guessing they may have used beer in it in some way to get rise ?

(Currently, brioche is rising in the breadmaker if I have done it right [Yipee] )
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Chapati flour

You'll no doubt get something more authentic from others, but:

Wheat flour tortilla recipe (Tortillas de harina de trigo)

1tbsp (15ml) salt
450g (11b) plain flour
75g (3oz) lard or vegetable shortening
275ml (10fl oz) warm water (at body temperature)

Mix salt, flour and lard as pastry, add warm water slowly to make dough. Knead with floured hands until no longer sticky. Keep dough covered with warm damp cloth. Take 45g (1½oz) dough at a time and knead, folding back to trap air for a few seconds, make into a ball, flatten it and roll out to thin enough to see board through the pastry. Cut around a 9" plate to make tortilla. Cook on moderately hot griddle or pan, for about 40s on each side. When cooked should feel heavy and floppy, soft and pliable.

Stack cooked tortilla together, wrapped in a clean tea-towel. Always eat hot except when fried when can be eaten cold if consumed within 4 hours.

(it's from Sainsbury's Cooking of Mexico by Lourdes Nichols (1985))
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If so, what did people make bread with back when all flour was local?
It was bread Jim, but not as we know it... Much of medieval England, for example, subsisted on spelt bread, which seems to have been the consistency of set porridge. Not all bread was leavened, and when it was, yeast was not the only raising agent.
Spelt is a wheat relative. I've made bread with it. Not enough taste difference to warrant the expense I felt.

If you mix with flour and water about 50-50 and leave in your kitchen oncovered, eventually some yeasts will settle into it and it will start to look like you've yeasted it. It took almost 3 weeks when I tried it.

A faster way of getting wild yeasts is to soak raisins or apple peelings in water and use the water from that. People use grape as well. Takes about 10 days to really get going here. Link to wild bread yeast and bacteria

A professor of mine years back had some "Joe" which was alleged to be a sourdough vulture 100 years old. Not sure of the truth of that.

[ 18. October 2014, 20:06: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
It may well be possible to use beer yeast. It's certainly possible to make beer using the sludge in the bottom of a bottle conditioned beer.

However, the issue isn't yeast. Historically yeast as fermented dough was kept for the previous baking (removed before the baking of course) and used for the next one. There are still people who do that, though I've not heard of anyone using that method successfully in a bread machine . The issue is using flour which grew in England rather than on the prairies with their colder winters and hotter summers. England grows a lot of wheat and it produces flour is excellent for virtually everything except bread.

The tortillas look like as though they come out a bit like a chapatti or perhaps a Derbyshire/Staffordshire oatcake though those are fermented with yeast. The question I was actually asking is whether you can use chapatti flour to make bread?
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Sorry, was answering two comments at once. The tortillas were for Pomona.

Traditional Irish bread is soda bread - using baking soda instead of yeast. The traditional north eastern stottie almost certainly approximates what the Romans ate on Hadrian's Wall, and according to the Dove's link below, the Romans brought bread to Britain. Stotties are a very different sort of bread.

I wouldn't have thought trenchers would work unless they were made of fairly dense bread
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Bread Porn !
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Somewhere up thread I baked a brioche loaf. Just had a bread and butter pudding made with the remnant. Yumminy numminy.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
A good idea.

Once a novice is accustomed to the look and feel of a loaf, an interesting variation is to substitute beer for any water in the dough. Good flavour particularly in a dough which uses honey rather than sugar, and helps the rising no end.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
What happens if you make coffee, and use that instead of the water in the recipe ? Will it flavour the bread effectively ?

[ 19. October 2014, 21:38: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
 
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It may well be possible to use beer yeast. It's certainly possible to make beer using the sludge in the bottom of a bottle conditioned beer.
In Tudor times the bakhous was often placed next to the brewhus for this very reason.
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
What happens if you make coffee, and use that instead of the water in the recipe ? Will it flavour the bread effectively ?
I used to make a coffee and date loaf which was good. I used coffee but from memory, it did not make bread very dark or flavourful. I also added some of the coffee essence available down here in a bottle. This may need a bit of experimenting for flavour and colour. Old fashioned stuff which my parents drank many, many years ago before they discovered good coffee. Coffee with chicory.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... an interesting variation is to substitute beer for any water in the dough ...
This may sound like a daft question, but beer being beer, does that negate the need for yeast?
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Not at all daft. If you were using the yeast from brewing, you would not need to add any extra. As you're just using the beer, use the normal amount of yeast for the recipe. I am not sure how it would go with your baguettes and ficelles though.

As someone noted bakeries and breweries were near each other so that the yeast could be re-cycled, as it were. A problem with that was the largely unknown and very variable quality of the yeast and thus of the bread - even trickier than using cake yeast now rather than the granulated variety.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Buttermilk adds a nice flavor and texture to bread. If you use it, you need to add baking soda.

Moo
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Another question or rather gripe.

I've just loaded my bread machine. With the old one that eventually wore out, the recipes straightforwardly listed the amounts of flour in lbs and oz and water in pints with alternatives in grammes and litres. Why does the new one think it's being more helpful listing the quantities in 'cups' and even in one case 1⅝ of a cup? Why a cup? Cups come in all manner of different shapes and sizes. Yes, it does supply you with it's own small official plastic cup, but it's difficult to read. And having tested it, I can say that it doesn't bear any obvious relationship with any proportion of a pint or a litre, though as it happens 1⅝ comes out at fairly close to 400ml.

But also why on earth measure quantities of flour by volume rather than weight anyway? The old machine worked on the basis that you took a lb of flour and the other quantities were worked out on what made a decent loaf out of a lb of flour. Why can't this one do the same?
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Enoch, you have my sympathy: I thought I'd never get used to the North American habit of measuring everything in cups.

However, a cup is a standard measure: a cup of butter, for instance is 8 oz. (or half a packet).

Measuring cups usually come in sets of four: ¼, ⅓, ½ and 1 cup, and for accurate quantities you level off the top with the edge of a knife. I've never seen a recipe that specified a quantity in eighths of a cup.

As all my bread-making experience has been on this side of the Pond, I'm quite comfortable with using cup measures for bread, and we've never had any quantity-related failures!
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
In North America, cups are a measurement of volume and are standardized and sold as baking instruments. Quite a different thing from a drinking vessel. The tradition arose in the settlement period when tea or coffee cups were the only measure available.

As regards flour types, Canadian flour and British Flour differ in their gluten content. British and European flours usually contain 9% gluten, Canadian All-Purpose Flour contains 13% gluten. You'd think you can't bake pastries with that gluten content, but you can. All-Purp truly is All Purpose in Canada.

The different arises from the wheat varieties the flour is milled from. Europe mostly grows white winter wheats which have lower gluten content. Canada, especially the Prairies grows Hard Red Spring Wheat. The original in this line is Red Fife, and Red Fife was first planted by David Fife in Keene, a little village just south of Peterborough, where I live. David Fife is the father of Canadian Wheat.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
... However, a cup is a standard measure: a cup of butter, for instance is 8 oz. (or half a packet). ...
Piglet how can 8 oz of butter, which is a measure of weight, be 1 cup, which is a measure of volume, or is that just a happy accident. Presumably 8 oz of anything else will come out as a different fraction of cups?

I don't know whether this cup is a standard cup or the manufacturer's, or the manufacturer's dear old mum's, pet cup. I think the bread machine may have come from somewhere in the far east. If it is a standard cup, what volume actually would it be in fractions of a pint or mills? The conversion site you've linked to doesn't include a simple conversion table.
 
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
Enoch, according to wikipedia atta flour has a low gluten content so you wouldn't get much rise, but given the low price of it you could try adding some wheat gluten (just looked on ebay and you can get it with free postage). Atta is durum wheat which is low gluten but high protein, so it's a strong dough - so it may not rise much on its own but it's not soft like a cake flour.
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Piglet how can 8 oz of butter, which is a measure of weight, be 1 cup, which is a measure of volume, or is that just a happy accident.
A cup is half a pint, or 8 fluid ounces. Note that a fluid ounce is a measure of volume, not weight. A fluid ounce of water should weigh about one ounce.

Most American (and, it seems North American) bread recipes call for flour by volume rather than weight, and scales are relative rare in kitchens. Weight is much more accurate, of course, as the quantity of flour in a cup depends on how tightly it is packed. But I always add water / flour until the consistency looks right for the type of bread I am baking, so the exact amount of flour isn't critical.

Indeed, the first recipe I ever learned called for:
code:
    an egg
    half an egg shell of water
    enough flour
    butter the size of a filbert
    ...

 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
... However, a cup is a standard measure: a cup of butter, for instance is 8 oz. (or half a packet). ...
Piglet how can 8 oz of butter, which is a measure of weight, be 1 cup, which is a measure of volume, or is that just a happy accident. Presumably 8 oz of anything else will come out as a different fraction of cups?

I don't know whether this cup is a standard cup or the manufacturer's, or the manufacturer's dear old mum's, pet cup. I think the bread machine may have come from somewhere in the far east. If it is a standard cup, what volume actually would it be in fractions of a pint or mills? The conversion site you've linked to doesn't include a simple conversion table.
If your machine comes from the far east, its literature is probably targetted to US measures. Hence th cup.

US and Canadian dry measure is in multiples or fractions of a "cup" which is 8 fluid ounces. A UK pint is 20 fluid ounces, so you can do the math there. (my UK measuring cup shows fluid measures and flour/sugar measures by volume, but calibrated in ounces and ml -- so 10 ounces of flour equals 16 ounces of sugar by volume and both are about equal in volume to 1 pint or 20 fluid ounces).

FWIW, one 8 ounce (US) cup appears to be about 240 ml.

John
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Bread Porn !
Good pictures. Thanks for posting. The first one has a silky look to it from the outside.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Enoch, you can buy cups in the UK. I have a metal set (having broken the handles off the previous plastic set), but you can also obtain fancy ceramic cups in the celebrity chef ranges.

According to the engraved handles:

1/4 cup = 60ml = 2 fl oz
1/3 cup = 80ml = 3 fl oz
1/2 cup = 125ml = 4 fl oz
1 cup = 250ml = 9 fl oz

the 1 cup has subdivisions in 25ml engraved inside and out.

I have recipes that use 1 cup flour to 1/3 cup shortening or whatever.

Cups are easier to use cooking with children.

I also have measuring spoons (equally metal replacements for broken plastic)
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Teaspoons, tablespoons and so forth are alright, but I don't find cup measures as accurate as weight. Measure out a cup of flour: if you take it straight from the packet, it's likely to be clumped together and to have larger air holes; if you sift it first, the finer flakes sit better together, with smaller and fewer air holes. A cup of sifted flour will usually weigh more.

Then you get to solids such as butter. I know that the easiest measure is to have a cup of water and add enough butter to reach the 2 cup mark. It's a lot easier just to weigh out 175 g (or whatever) on the scales.

My preference is to limit volume measures to very small quantities of dry ingredients, and to have weights for anything much bigger.

As to Piglets question about using coffee as the liquid in a sweet loaf - yes, you would get the flavour, but I think you'd need to use a very strong brew. When you put beer into bread, you're not after the flavour of beer, but a differently flavoured loaf, as well as getting a good effect on the rising.
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
quote:
Teaspoons, tablespoons and so forth are alright,
Then you need to watch out for Aussie tablespoons which hold 20 ml, not 15ml like others.
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
... A UK pint is 20 fluid ounces...

John
And an American pint is 16 fluid ounces, which is why there are 2 cups to the pint. (Assuming we are using the same type of ounces...)

It is good to know that the cups are relatively the same size in the US as in the Empire, however, even if the pints, quarts and gallons aren't.

Another useful conversion: 1/3 cup = 5 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon (unless, apparently, you are Australian.)
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
... A UK pint is 20 fluid ounces...

John
And an American pint is 16 fluid ounces, which is why there are 2 cups to the pint. (Assuming we are using the same type of ounces...)

It is good to know that the cups are relatively the same size in the US as in the Empire, however, even if the pints, quarts and gallons aren't.

Another useful conversion: 1/3 cup = 5 tablespoons + 1 teaspoon (unless, apparently, you are Australian.)
The 2 ounce difference in a cup is 25% -- hardly "relatively the same size." It's that 2 oz per cup difference that leads to the 4 oz difference in the pint, the 8 oz difference (one cup) in the quart and leads to 5ish Imperial gallons equallying 6ish US gallons.

John
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
quote:
Teaspoons, tablespoons and so forth are alright,
Then you need to watch out for Aussie tablespoons which hold 20 ml, not 15ml like others.
That's a serving spoon in our Canadian kitchen.

2 T (tablespoons) = 1/8 cup.

Butter we buy in 4 sticks to 454 g, which is 1 lb, and they have markings on them with T and parts of a cup, so the part you want can be just cut off and used.

Probably this is a foolish question, but I suspect none of you weighing bakers take scales on camping trips.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Do you make things on camping trips that require more precision than "a pinch of this and a handful or two of that, whatever looks right?"

We don't. Which maybe says something about our lack of mad skillz...

ETA: suddenly thought--when you say camping, you do mean cooking over a fire outside, right? Not being in an RV or something? I meant the fire.

[ 21. October 2014, 02:37: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... I suspect none of you weighing bakers take scales on camping trips.
No - I just never go on camping trips. [Eek!]
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
quote:
Probably this is a foolish question, but I suspect none of you weighing bakers take scales on camping trips.
One word:
Damper

Bear in mind there are as many methods and recipes for this as there are cooks. I used to use the cast iron camp oven for lots of things camping. This is one of them.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
Lothlorien, it seems clear to me that I need to add a shovel to my baking tools! That was awesome!!
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
That bush bread recipe looks fabulous!

If atta is low in gluten it explains why I had problems when I tried it some years ago - if I use half atta and half maida - the equivalent of plain flour here - do you think I will get a better result?

[ 21. October 2014, 12:37: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
That bloke clearly doesn't give a stuff about cup sizes, lbs or kgs. [Big Grin]

I didn't have the sound on - I'm at w*rk - what on earth were the ingredients that he put what looked like eight tablespoons of into the mix?

[Confused]
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
From personal and very recent experience (like right now) do ensure soda bread is cooked for long enough. I think the baking powder may be 'tired' too.

It's OK, but best for mopping up egg and beans.
 
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
That bush bread recipe looks fabulous!

If atta is low in gluten it explains why I had problems when I tried it some years ago - if I use half atta and half maida - the equivalent of plain flour here - do you think I will get a better result?
I didn't realise maida was the equivalent of plain flour, that's handy to know. It should help! You can definitely get big bags of maida in UK supermarkets in reasonably diverse areas - I think my local area may not be diverse enough but there are plenty of online sellers like Spices of India.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I bake bread on camping trips, particularly on those wind-bound or rain days on canoe trips. Fire has to be coals, and bake in a dutch oven. This one. A good way is to also boil in water and then bake. Sort bagel like. Also known to make pies and cakes when camping.

Another thing to get is one of these: Bush pie maker. You can use slices of bread or uncooked bannock, and sandwich something like marshmallows and chocolate between them, or pie filling, or raisins soaked in sugared rum, or cheese, or fish you caught.

I can't watch the damper video, I think it close to what we call bannock: 1 cup of flour gets 1 t baking powder and 1 t sugar (optional, you can also add salt), and 1 T oil or butter. Mix with enough water that it is not sticky and fry, or, roll with hands into a long snake and wind around a 1" stick, bark peeled off and greased. You end up with what looks like a bannock finger cast which you can fill with a weiner, jam or whatever. Things to add to bannock dough: chocolate chips, raisins, cheese, granola, herbs, though not all of these at once. Common is to cook for supper or breakfast and take extra for lunch on the lake.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
Maida and atta flour appear to be what we call durum in Canada. Often used for pasta and perogis.
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
That bloke clearly doesn't give a stuff about cup sizes, lbs or kgs. [Big Grin]

I didn't have the sound on - I'm at w*rk - what on earth were the ingredients that he put what looked like eight tablespoons of into the mix?

[Confused]
It was a dessert spoon, hence the full ones and the quarter ones, of both a particular yeast he uses and then of sugar. He did the salt in rather generous pinches.
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Old fashioned dry yeast obtained today so now all it requires is the time, the energy and, more importantly, the courage to have a go again.
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Any views on bread boards and breadknives ? I am looking to replace mine as I think the board is harbouring more bacteria than a small sea.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Since there seem to be some quite knowledgeable people on this thread, can anyone answer the following?

When the people leave Egypt at the Exodus, they take with them, Ex 12:34, their kneading-troughs. The Hebrew, apparently is mishereth. Does anyone know whether kneading-troughs were a piece of basic domestic equipment from late Bronze/early Iron Age Egypt or an attempt to translate what mishereth was thought to mean into something familiar to people in C17 England?
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Principal breadboard came with the husband - so that's above 30 years.

When I was 3 or so, my mother found a horn-handled knife down the back of a second hand sofa - which was then the family Breadknife for the next few decades.

So, probably not the best person to ask...
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
In this case the equipment is inherited from grandparent, who died five years ago at the age of 98 - so the Lord only knows how old they are ...
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Since there seem to be some quite knowledgeable people on this thread, can anyone answer the following?

When the people leave Egypt at the Exodus, they take with them, Ex 12:34, their kneading-troughs. The Hebrew, apparently is mishereth. Does anyone know whether kneading-troughs were a piece of basic domestic equipment from late Bronze/early Iron Age Egypt or an attempt to translate what mishereth was thought to mean into something familiar to people in C17 England?
As far as I know a kneading trough is something that holds dough in as it rises, to give it a shape before baking it. If they were going to make bread in the future, it makes sense to take one along, except if you're in a hurry, so maybe it is a mistranslation. Most people who aren't using loaf pans these days, use a bread shaping basket (bread basket), which you line with a towel covered in flour. Let the dough rise, transfer gently to a baking stone, and bake.

I would have expected that they might take bread baskets with them, they are also something to put bread in. A kneading trough sounds like wood or stone to me. But maybe that's what 17th century people used in place of baskets?
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
They were carrying unrisen dough (being in a hurry). Wouldn't it make sense to carry it in the kneading trough it was probably already in (since you've got to take that too)? It's what we do, when we have to move hurriedly in the middle of some cooking project. (No, not out of Egypt, more likely out of the kitchen for a DYI reason)
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Any views on bread boards and breadknives ? I am looking to replace mine as I think the board is harbouring more bacteria than a small sea.
I like hardwood and bamboo boards. The bamboo are less porous, but don't seem to last as long. Plastic hold more bacteria, but are easier to sanitise.
Here is a potential compromise. I've not tried them, so cannot make a personal recommendation.
 
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
We use a Lions Sabatier knife which is lovely and sharp, presumably bought from John Lewis (but not the one they currently have online, ours looks different and I'm sure we didn't pay that much!).
Wooden boards for bread here (I use separate plastic ones for cooking though) as we usually cut at the table as part of lunch.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
If you want to slice hot soft bread, an electric knife is the best tool.

Moo
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
I went with Tesco special offer in the end, as there doesn't seem to be much difference between the brands.

Currently proving dough for a muffin loaf, that the reciepe's author claims can be cooked in a microwave - we shall see ...

Having tried kneading a brioche dough and now this muffin dough, I have come to the view you can only hand knead a very soft dough by oiling your hands but also your kneading surface - rather than flouring it.

Do others find this ?
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
The muffin loaf looks like set porridge [Frown]
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Tastes OK - looks do matter though.

[ 26. October 2014, 22:47: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
My electric knife for cutting warm bread straight out of the oven has arrived so I'm running out of excuses for my procrastination.

30 years ago I used to make bread every week - come on WW, get with the action!
 
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
Try this so easy, so gorgeous.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Does anyone here have experience of baking bread using kosher salt instead of ordinary salt? A friend is on a (temporary) no-iodine diet and is allowed kosher salt. As my French stick recipe only has flour, water, yeast and salt in it I thought I'd give it a go with kosher salt and give her a loaf.

Am I right in thinking that I need to double the quantity of salt because of the bigger grains, or would I be better grinding it down in a mortar and pestle?

I've posted this on the recipe thread as well, but perhaps someone here can help.

Thanks. [Smile]
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Three answer is: it depends. The designation "kosher", with salt, means only that it contains no iodine. It is generally larger grained, but there is no specified size or shape.
Here is a basic conversion chart, [b]however, read this link for a better understanding. The Morton link is only applicable to the more commercial varieties.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
Thanks, LB - that's very useful. It seems that some more is needed when measuring by volume (and the recipe specifies teaspoons), so I'll adjust it accordingly.

I'll let you know how I get on. [Smile]
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
From experience, salt doesn't matter very much. It controls the yeast to a degree, making the bubbles/crumb more even. I typically use about 50% of the recommended salt, and use sea salt. You can leave it out entirely with limited effect with Canadian flours.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
My experience is that if you forget to put salt in your bread, the crust and usually the top part of the loaf falls back in on itself, as though it has risen and then partially collapsed again.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Piglet and I had quite a few posts when she started baking her own bread. A conclusion I reached then was that Canadian and Aust flours are about both very strong, more so than US and a lot more than standard European flours.

In her great book, Elizabeth David discusses the need for both sugar, to help the yeast grow, and salt, to keep the growth under control. Enoch's collapsed loaves suggest that a loaf with too little salt rises quickly and before the underlying crumb has had a chance properly to form and support the crust. The recipes that No Prophet etc describes are of a different style. That, and the strong flour allow for the proper formation of the dough to support the crust.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
That's correct. Canadian flour doesn't generally result in flying crusts that then collapse unless the bread is over-yeasted or risen too long and/or at higher heats. Piglet is in Nfld, which for better or worse in general is in Canada now, and for better IMHO has the high protein, high gluten flour to work with. Sugar will speed up the rising, but isn't required if you've time.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
The rising/collapsing thing happened to us several times when we were doing the sort of bread that bakes in the bread-machine, and there didn't really seem to be much logic in whether it would collapse or not.

With the French stick recipe, the machine only does the kneading, and so far the results have been splendid; even when I forgot about them and left them in the oven for twice as long as they needed, they were still edible, just a bit crusty.

I don't fancy the idea of bread made with no salt at all - I imagine it would be very bland, and I don't think I'd trust the yeast to behave as it should.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I did the French sticks with kosher salt, and they came out really well. I almost doubled the quantity; I put twice the stated quantity into a mortar and pestle and ground it down a bit, then used about three-quarters of it. The loaves rose slightly more than usual (no bad thing) and tasted just fine.

I gave one loaf to my friend and she was over the moon; she reckons she'll need another by the next time we see each other (on Wednesday). [Big Grin]
 
Posted by EloiseA (# 18029) on :
 
I have a newish sourdough starter that is strong and reliable -- yesterday I made a good half-rye bread with molasses, caraway seeds and fennel seeds.

Wondering if anyone has tried a Yule panettone using sourdough?
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
I did a fairly elaborate braided sourdough "coffee cake" once. Looked great! Can't tell you how it actually tasted, however, as it was for a bake sale.
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I have a sour dough starter I got going in the last month. I named it "Tim" in honour of my best friend and canoe trip buddy on the 5th year of the anniversary of his death (damn cancer anyway!). I've been putting in cumin seeds and some butter melted in grape seed oil, which is making a rather fine loaf. I also made a focaccia with chopped olives, red pepper flakes, oregano inside and coarse black pepper and salt on top. "Tim", neither the living sour dough, nor the spirit of the man have told me how long I have to keep it going yet. At least, I think until after Christmas.
 
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
... the lack (in winter) of a reliably warm place for proving ...
That was what put us off doing our own for a while, but you can put it in the oven with just the oven-light on, or if you've got an airing-cupboard that would probably work.
I have proved dough on a rack over the laundry tub half-filled with
hot water.
Our once favourite coffee shop had two delicacies that I missed when it morphed into a top restaurant: mille-feuilles, and a small roll that I've tried to reproduce with an enriched dough (butter, lemon juice and vanilla) and mixed cake fruit, with a drizzle of vanilla icing on top. Good, but not as heavenly as I remember it.
I have made mille-feuilles too, but that's another story.
And as a footnote – one minister had breadmakers sending an enticing smell into the church in time for the newly-baked bread to be used for communion. As I washed up afterwards I asked a small boy nearby if they had home baked bread at home, and he said rather wistfully that no, they didn't have a bread-maker. Poor little 21st Century kid.

GG
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Sufficient warmth to prove bread is not much of a problem here, but in summer rather the reverse - bread that rises too quickly, and does not develop sufficient flavour from the yeast.
 
Posted by Beethoven (# 114) on :
 
To my great delight, Op 2 has decided at the grand old age of 10 to develop her breadmaking skills. The first loaf she produced was eaten up between four of us in a single meal, so I'm hoping she'll do another this weekend... I use my breadmaker and quite often a packet mix; she does it all properly. So far both her loaves have been plain white bread - but shaped in fun ways. Maybe she'll experiment with flavours too at some point. [Smile]
 
Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
Beethoven - i'd recommend the Paul Hollywood baking bread book for a Christmas present. Just to 'encourage' her, you know!

I have just bought myself a stand mixer. So looking forward to all the sloppy enriched doughs that hand kneading didn't help and my food processor (which has a dough hook, but has an unfortunate problem of sending bread dough up under the dough hook and then down into the spin-ney thing) can't do... Any recommendations?
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ferijen:
Beethoven - i'd recommend the Paul Hollywood baking bread book for a Christmas present. Just to 'encourage' her, you know!

Seconded. There are some excellent recipes in that book. It's worth working through it as breads you don't recognise are good too.
 
Posted by Beethoven (# 114) on :
 
Suggestion noted. It would go well with the cream horn moulds that she's desperate for [Smile] Trying unusual sorts of bread won't be a problem - up until now she's mainly made scandinavian breads with her Granny, so oddly enough making normal white bread was the new bit.
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
I haven't kept a sourdough starter since I was in my 20s, but my wife ordered one for me while she was getting some other cultures. I don't bother with recipes - just add enough flour until the mixture feels right.

First couple of small test batches had good flavo(u)r but were crumbly due to the use of gluten-free flour, especially rice flour. I was making French bread, and they both spread out wide on the sheet due to lack of proper kneading (which makes a mess on our limited kitchen counter space) and the wrong flours. I had actually tried kneading the dough in the bowl, which sort-of worked, but left a lot of flour lumps in the dough.

Then I decided to make sourdough biscuits for the big family New Year's Day dinner. The first test batch came out well, but a bit underdone. Basically you take bread dough, form it into small lumps, roll them in oil (traditionally bacon grease), and cram them together into a baking pan. As they rise they nestle together to make a solid pan of bread that breaks apart easily along the oiled seams. The biscuits are rather irregular in shape, which adds to the interest. (If you want them more uniform, don't crowd them as close together in the pan.) They come out like irregular dinner rolls with a strong sourdough taste, and chewier than more refined products - which suits us well.

I had started the sourdough sponge the afternoon before, stirred it up again first thing in the morning, then carefully timed the last rising in the pan so they would go in the oven when the roast beef came out. Unfortunately the roast beef took an extra hour to come up to temperature, so we had to put the rising biscuits in the cold garage to keep them from over-rising. As it was, they were over the top of the pan, and a couple chunks fell off in the oven, but that is just part of the fun.

I dumped the whole pan into a bread basket, and folks could tear the individual biscuits off the block. They were a big hit, both that afternoon and the next morning for breakfast.

So am I going to cook any more sourdough? Probably not, actually. It appears that my wife is allergic to the culture - her sinuses started running the first evening after I put it up to rise, and again the next day when I was baking them. The final clue was when I reheated a few for breakfast and her symptoms returned! So the starter and most of the remaining biscuits left with my sister-in-law, who enjoys sourdough pancakes. I don't know if the allergic reaction was to the yeast or something else, but will probably limit myself to crackers and quick breads (baking powder / baking soda) for now.


I did, however, find a wonderful book at the library: How Baking Works by Paula Figoni (ISBN 978-0-470-39267-6), which is a food science textbook that explains all the interactions and chemistry of baking. At 500+ pages it isn't exactly light reading, but it certainly appeals to a geek like me, even if I'm not going to be doing as much baking as I thought.
 
Posted by Celtic Knotweed (# 13008) on :
 
Decided to bake a loaf this evening [Smile] So, it got a good hour for the first rising, then I put it in the tin, left the oven to heat, and forgot about it! So the oven has been heating the flat for some time but the bread only went in when I remembered 20 min ago [Hot and Hormonal] At least it rose well...

Fresh bread for a late night snack soon!
 


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