Ship of Fools: Treiglad meddal

Thread: Treiglad meddal - the Welsh thread Board: Heaven / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Note - treiglad meddal is the most common mutation (the "soft" mutation). A mutation is the way that the beginning of a word changes - for example the word for pencil is pensil, but if I'm wanting to say your pencil, it'd correctly be dy bensil di. Anyway -

--

This might not work, but let's try talking about Welsh, the language and any other related issues you might be interested in.

So here are a few suggestions for things to talk about;

* Particular phrases
* Grammar
* Position of the language in Wales and elsewhere
* Whether the use of Welsh in parts of Wales where almost nobody speaks it is "political correctness"
* Whether there is any point in someone who isn't even in Wales learning Welsh

Just to start off, my class has been learning about some irregular future verbs.

So for example the verb "to go" is mynd, which goes weird in the future tense.

The informal "you" is Ei di.

House is Tŷ and black is du

Then the informal "your" is dy ---- di which mutates, so your house is dy dŷ di

And "your black house" is dy dŷ du di

And so "you are going to see your black house" is Ei di dy dŷ du di.

Which, in conclusion, is why Welsh is awesome.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Well, I'm trying to learn Welsh via Duolingo - there are no Welsh classes where I am, although the Welsh did briefly rule York during the so-called Dark Ages.

Why bother to learn a language you will probably never need to speak? Here are my reasons:

- It's interesting. Not just interesting in itself, but interesting to see the connections between Welsh and other languages that I know - the names for days of the week, for example: Monday is dydd Llun (cf French lundi).
- If you want to study medieval British literature you need to be able to read all the languages used to write it, not just Middle English. Some of the earliest Arthurian poetry is in Welsh. Poetry doesn't translate well.
- Some of my ancestors were Welsh. The Welsh language is an important aspect of Welsh culture - what's left of it after eight centuries of English rule.
- Being able to speak/read/understand more than one language is good for the brain. People who are bilingual or multilingual have significant cognitive advantages compared to monolinguals.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I tried learning Welsh when we were there for a few weeks a few summers back, partly so we could say the place names correctly and had more understanding of what the signs said. All went swimmingly in Pembrokeshire (we were walking the coast path) for two weeks. Then we travelled up to Snowdonia, whereupon the pronunciation and usage changed and I gave up.

My daughter is now trying to learn Irish Gaelic - she likes learning languages.

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

My grand-parents were Welsh and I would've loved to learn from them but they found it far too useful to be able to speak freely in Welsh when we were there knowing there would be no way their English-speaking-only grandchildren couldn't understand a word. All I picked up was nos da (good night). [Frown]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

p'nawn da bawb (afternoon all)

Cheesy - that's even worse in the north, where du and dŷ are pronounced slightly differently to di. [Biased]

And don't forget that di can be a shortening of wedi... [Devil]

[ 02. November 2017, 13:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

Pry yawn da!
Welsh was compulsory in school till form 3. I dropped it in favour of French for O level, but regretted it.
I did a Welsh evening class and I later did a course via work and passed Mynediad - entrance level, about equivalent to a GCSE, but didn't get much chance to siarad Cymraeg.
Last year - about 10 years on - I started a Mynediad course again and was shocked at the way it was taught - the emphasis is now very much on spoken Welsh, so whilst I remember "Rydw I, rwyt ti" etc. it's now "dw I, dwt ti" etc, which I found quite difficult.
Unfortunately, the class hasn't continued in my town - year 2 is in Caerphilly, which I could get to by train, but would be a potch.
Lord and Lady P say they want to learn, so perhaps I'll get a chance to practise with them.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

// tangent

quote:
House is Tŷ and black is du

In Scottish Gaelic house is tigh (pronounced tie) and black is dubh (pronounced doo)

On the subject of houses, tigh beag, little house, is a lavatory. Incomers sometimes think that "Little House" in Gaelic is a charming name for a holiday home ....

end tangent //

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Cheesy - that's even worse in the north, where du and dŷ are pronounced slightly differently to di. And don't forget that di can be a shortening of wedi...

Not heard of the wedi shortening, but yes here in the south all the dis in that sentence are pronounced slightly differently.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
// tangent

quote:
House is Tŷ and black is du
In Scottish Gaelic house is tigh (pronounced tie) and black is dubh (pronounced doo)

On the subject of houses, tigh beag, little house, is a lavatory. Incomers sometimes think that "Little House" in Gaelic is a charming name for a holiday home ....

end tangent //

That's interesting, in Welsh it is Tŷ Bach, which sounds like it might be pronounced in a similar way.

There are quite a number of farms etc called Tŷ Bach. I find this a bit odd.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

No more odd than there being examples of Tŷ Mawr around ...

Anyhow, where yew are to now, it ourroo be Wenglish yew dah talk, rather than Welsh isn't it?

Talk tidy, like wharreye dah do.

Or did, when I grew up down there.*

* To be hoarnest mind, as an eddewecairted man, I doarn ten' to talk tidy. I dah talk normal. I dah still 'ave the accent mind, but not so many of the phrases they dah ewese down in the Valleys by there. Gorroo talk as tidy as they do elsewhere otherwise no-one'dge'my drift.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I tried learning Welsh when we were there for a few weeks a few summers back, partly so we could say the place names correctly and had more understanding of what the signs said. All went swimmingly in Pembrokeshire (we were walking the coast path) for two weeks. Then we travelled up to Snowdonia, whereupon the pronunciation and usage changed and I gave up.

Well aye, mun, but yew'd need more 'anna few weeks.

The Gogledd do pronounce words differently as there are, of course, regional variations in Welsh as in any other language.

For their part, the Gogledd (North Walians) refer to people from Pembrokeshire and other parts of South West Wales as 'tatws' - potatoes - as the first spuds of the season tended to come from there, a week or so in advance of the spuds in the north.

It's relatively easy to grasp the pronunciation for place names and so on, for all the variations, but the killer comes with the mutations and variations that make Welsh one of the most difficult languages to learn.

I wouldn't pretend to know where to start with all that. We didn't speak Welsh in South Wales but learnt a smattering at school and enough to sing the National Anthem, Sospan Fach and to at least pronounce place names properly (tidy) if we found ourselves in West Wales, Mid-Wales or North Wales - or some of the more westerly of the Valleys.

Otherwise, the standard practice in Gwent (Monmouthshire) was to mangle the Welsh language as badly as we mauled the Queen's English.

We couldn't speak either properly (tidy).

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Pembrokeshire is a law to itself. The southern part hasn't spoken Welsh for centuries, of cause, and North of the Landsker the dialect is - distinct. It's done a similar thing to French to the oe sound - formally pronounced as "oi", sometimes reduced to long "o", in Pembrokeshire they say 'we'.

I'm learning Gog; I'm more likely to go to the North and it's the part of Wales I love best anyway. So it's Medra i (I can), dw i ddim (I'm not, none of this "Sa i" stuff...)

Digon i rwan, mi ddylwn i weithio... (enough for now, I should be working)

(Bonus point for anyone who can spot both the "Gog markers" in that sentence)

[ 03. November 2017, 13:41: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No more odd than there being examples of Tŷ Mawr around ...

True but it does look like the farms are being called Toilet.

quote:
Anyhow, where yew are to now, it ourroo be Wenglish yew dah talk, rather than Welsh isn't it?

Nope almost no Welsh spoken in this valley at all, possibly a different thing in the valleys to the West of here.

quote:
Talk tidy, like wharreye dah do.

Yes, it is certainly a distinctive dialect. And one I didn't realise was so localised until I went to Newport the other day and realised I couldn't understand a word that a man (with a broad local Welsh accent) was saying to me.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Digon i rwan, mi ddylwn i weithio... (enough for now, I should be working)

(Bonus point for anyone who can spot both the "Gog markers" in that sentence)

I think rwan is more Northern than the Southern nawr. Not sure about the other - maybe starting a sentence with "mi"?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Digon i rwan, mi ddylwn i weithio... (enough for now, I should be working)

(Bonus point for anyone who can spot both the "Gog markers" in that sentence)
I think rwan is more Northern than the Southern nawr. Not sure about the other - maybe starting a sentence with "mi"?

Right on both counts

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I tried learning Welsh when we were there for a few weeks a few summers back, partly so we could say the place names correctly and had more understanding of what the signs said. All went swimmingly in Pembrokeshire (we were walking the coast path) for two weeks. Then we travelled up to Snowdonia, whereupon the pronunciation and usage changed and I gave up.

Well aye, mun, but yew'd need more 'anna few weeks.

The Gogledd do pronounce words differently as there are, of course, regional variations in Welsh as in any other language.

For their part, the Gogledd (North Walians) refer to people from Pembrokeshire and other parts of South West Wales as 'tatws' - potatoes - as the first spuds of the season tended to come from there, a week or so in advance of the spuds in the north.

It's relatively easy to grasp the pronunciation for place names and so on, for all the variations, but the killer comes with the mutations and variations that make Welsh one of the most difficult languages to learn.

Variations yes - how many ways do you want to be able to say "I went" - "(Mi/Fe) (G)(w)nes i mynd", "es i", "(mi) ddaru i mi mynd"... the mutations, meh, Nghymru looks scary but really yng Nghymru isn't that different in speech to "*yn Cymru" - what's weird is the generalisation of the soft mutation, so we get "yn Gymru", but I suppose that's because yn does cause soft mutation of nouns and adjectives.

Much worse, for me, are the unpredictable genders, plurals and noun stems. You can largely get away with the noun stems unless you need an imperative, but the other two are real traps, and no-one will be able to avoid grimacing at "*dau cath"

[ 04. November 2017, 00:32: Message edited by: jedijudy ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

(can some nice person clean up what I spilt on the floor UBB-wise. Sorry)

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
(can some nice person clean up what I spilt on the floor UBB-wise. Sorry)

Sure! Glad to help. [Smile]

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

What permutation of subject verb object do Welsh sentences take? Or can it vary?

[ 04. November 2017, 04:29: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

VSO is normal, other orders imply emphasis. It's also complicated by auxiliary verbs; technically the auxiliary is the main verb and the verb following it is a predicate.

Bydda i'n mynd i'r swyddfa heddiw
WillBe I a-going to the office today

I'r swyddfa bydda i'n mynd heddiw - implies 'and not to the pub, cinema or park.'

Mynd i'r swyddfa bydda i heddiw - implies 'I'm going and that's that.'

Exception is what are called identification sentences:

Pwy ydy o? Who is he?

Siôn ydy o. He's Siôn.

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

Thank you (how do you say that?)

If you don't mind another linguistic-nerd question then I'll let you get back to your normal programme...

Are the numbers 11 to 12 the odd ones out as they are in English (or 11 to 16 in French...)?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

In the traditional system it's 15-19 which are a bit odd https://www.omniglot.com/language/numbers/welsh.htm

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

Diolch = thank you
Diolch yn fawr = thank you very much

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

From Gamaliel:

quote:
We didn't speak Welsh in South Wales but learnt a smattering at school and enough to sing the National Anthem

Hence the delightful mixing of Welsh and English common in the valleys - such as "Dim problem".

(Dim = No).

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
From Gamaliel:

quote:
We didn't speak Welsh in South Wales but learnt a smattering at school and enough to sing the National Anthem
Hence the delightful mixing of Welsh and English common in the valleys - such as "Dim problem".

(Dim = No).

Actually the original meaning of dim is 'anything' (as in the proverbial phrase Heb Dduw Heb Ddim 'Without God (one is) Without Anything') but its regular use in such negative contexts means that it's now regularly taken to mean 'nothing.' Neb 'no-one' in everyday spoken Welsh has taken the same journey.

Is Welsh hard to learn? Well, little children seem to find it easy enough! I accept that a lot of English speakers struggle with it, but then I, being a first-language Welsh-speaker, find a lot of English rather tricksy.

In particular I find English pronouns utterly baffling when they're used without any clear reference to who's being spoken about - 'Anyway, he meant to say to him - after he'd seen him in town - that he ought to come round to see him, but he wasn't able to.' Aaaarggghhh!

Welsh, which has pronouns that can neatly sort this mess out - fe and yntau - is far easier to untangle!

Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:

In particular I find English pronouns utterly baffling when they're used without any clear reference to who's being spoken about

So do English-only speakers. One is supposed to include a referent for a pronoun anywhere it isn't immediate obvious what the pronoun refers to. Alas, many people fail to do so.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:

In particular I find English pronouns utterly baffling when they're used without any clear reference to who's being spoken about
So do English-only speakers. One is supposed to include a referent for a pronoun anywhere it isn't immediate obvious what the pronoun refers to. Alas, many people fail to do so.

Including, it appears, the translators of the Authorised Version, sometimes with strange results: And when they awoke in the morning, lo, they were all dead.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Actually the original meaning of dim is 'anything' (as in the proverbial phrase Heb Dduw Heb Ddim 'Without God (one is) Without Anything') but its regular use in such negative contexts means that it's now regularly taken to mean 'nothing.' Neb 'no-one' in everyday spoken Welsh has taken the same journey.

Huh, that's very interesting - I didn't know that.

It does seem as a novice that there are various kinds of Welsh which possibly reflect formality and the age of the person speaking. There seems to be quite a lot of drift with regard to meaning.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

As with all languages. There's also the literary language which would sound a bit silly if you spoke it. Cf. Yr ydych chwi, colloqial dŷch chi; y mae ef, colloquial mae e, oes arnat ti eisiau cwpaned o de, colloquial t'isio panad o de?

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Noswaith dda,

Haggis dw i. Dw i'n mynd i dysgu siarad Cymraeg yn Cardyff. Dw i'n hoffi byw yn Gardyff.

Probably got that wrong!
I tried several learning Welsh sites on-line but they either asked for money after a couple of lessons or just had more and more verbal strings saying that you you were learning Welsh. I wanted to communicate properly.

Then, I discovered lessons at our local leisure centre (I can get by bus) from "Welsh for Adults" run from Cardiff Uni. It is reasonably priced and there are lots of activities where you can practice,Saturday conversation sessions, pub meetings etc, including buying a mag called "lingo newydd."

It's great fun and is conversation based although you do cover grammar, mutations etc. You need someone to correct your pronunciation, particularly with the more difficult Welsh sounds and the diphthongs which don't sound as English ones do. You don't get that with on-line lessons. Although I did discover a helpful series on "Welsh Pronunciation" which gives you N & S pronunciations.

I now go to visit an old lady in our church once a week to do pronunciation practice and enjoy a paned.

When you learn a language you need not only to practice it but also to hear it around you. "Radio Gymraeg" and S4C are a good help.

Welsh isn't the same as Gaelic. There are 2 strands of the Celtic languages. One which has Irish & Scottish Gaelic and the second which has Welsh, Breton and Cornish which are related. When I was studying in Lisbon a number of years ago one of our lecturers was trying to get down the Celtic language spoken in Tras os Montes region. Very few speakers were left and he wanted the Celtic language recorded and analysed before it died out completely. Never did find out which strand of Celtic it belonged to.

The mutations are a problem but my teacher says that they do come as you practice speaking. Not as complex as Hungarian vowel harmony though!!!

Pob hwyl.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Don't know what your professor was trying to track down, but indigenous Celtic languages haven't been spoken south of Brittany (or anywhere outside Brittany on the continent) for over a thousand years.

[ 04. November 2017, 18:22: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Edit : Mirandese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirandese_language - but it's Romance, not Celtic.

Posted by Offeiriad (# 14031) on :

Tregaron? I lived there in a previous existence! That's where I first learned the phrase: Beware of the Taffia - they'll make you an offer you can't understand! [Big Grin]

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

Got a question for you Welsh speakers out there. So how does hoil best translate (I may have the spelling wrong) - usually seems to mean something along the lines of passion, zeal, spirit.

I have a vague recollection of being told a Welsh greeting was sut hoil meaning "how is your spirit?". Is that correct or is my memory failing me (highly likely)?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Is it possible you mean hwyl? As per this BBC Welsh lesson

quote:
'Hwyl' has a variety of meanings in Welsh. Some of the most common are these:

'Hwyl' meaning the sail of a ship; 'hwyl' - meaning fun; 'hwyl' meaning good bye or good luck. But 'hwyl' can also refer to a person's physical or mental condition. So 'Sut hwyl oedd arno fe?' means literally: 'What kind of a mood was on him?', in other words 'How was he?' Sometimes the plural 'hwyliau' is used instead of the singular 'hwyl'. 'Sut hwyliau oedd arno fe?' So, instead of the usual 'Bore da' on a Monday morning, why not impress your friends by asking: 'Sut hwyl sydd arnat ti y bore yma?'

It's fairly common just to hear people say "hwyl" - as a cheery "bye".

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Some Hwntws pronounce it as Hoel.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

I thought hwyl was linked to preaching; the eloquence that overtakes a gifted preacher as the Spirit falls. (Or an excuse for Welsh long-windedness.)

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Sounds more like Awen, the Bardic inspiration.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I can't remember if I said this before - but it seems like there are various levels of Welsh. Partly this is about formality and the difference between what is taught and what is actually spoken. There seem to be differences even between what the Adult Education classes teach and what the schools teach in Welsh classes.

And then there is another layer of differences depending on the age of the person talking.

And another about the local dialect - not just North-South and East-West Wales but even between the way it is spoken in Newport/Cardiff (where there are generally few speakers) and places where there are many more and it is a dynamic every-day language. It is also quite noticeable that the majority of Welsh teachers in the South-east are from North Wales.

It seems to me that this is not easily mapped onto English variations - which obviously have many differences in terms of spoken language but generally speaking has an accepted written form.

Anyway, this makes teaching the language for those who want to be able to converse in it quite challenging. For example we've been learning the shortened form of the future tense recently, although we've also heard from various fluent speakers who say that they never use it and some who say that they don't even recognise the words!

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Yeah, there does seem to be quite a variety of ways of saying anything, and as you say, some ways are never used by speakers from some areas. You'd not hear 'mi ddaru i fynd' for 'I went' in Swansea, and you'd not hear "sa i" for "I am not" in Caernarfon. Then there's the conditional, where you can use buas-, bas- or bydd- as the stem... Something as simple as "we got" - caethon? Cawson?

The move these days is to teach the local dialect. This is more difficult, of course, if the teacher is from the other end of the country. In usage all you can do is be guided by local speakers, but there aren't many of those in deepest Swydd Derby (more than you'd think though!) and those there are come from all over, so I just settled on the Gwynedd dialect as that's the part of Wales I'm most inclined to visit.

Inflected ("short form") future - confess I take refuge in the periphrastic form using bydd- the big variation (outside of the small number of high frequency irregular verbs like Cael, gwneud, mynd, dod) is in the 3rd sing - can end in -th or -ff depending where you are.

For a language covering a small geographical area (an important one; for the media the Wales is the standard unit of area) it's insanely varied, dw i'n meddwl. Or Rwy'n meddwl. Or wi'n meddwl, or fi'n meddwl, or Rydw i'n meddwl, or Yr wyf yn meddwl, or Yr ydwyf yn meddwl. I think. [Biased]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

(As an illustration for any layman who may have wondered in, those last variations are to illustrate the point about how there are variations in formality and dialect)

dw i'n meddwl - commmon spoken form, certainly the norm in the North
Rwy'n meddwl - spoken form more associated with the South.
wi'n meddwl, - more informal southern form
fi'n meddwl, - very informal southern form
Rydw i'n meddwl - Cymraeg Byw - an attempt in the 60s-70s to create a single colloquial form but which no-one speaks and sounds stilted. Might be met in writing where the above forms seem too informal but the following forms seem a bit like the KJV
Yr wyf yn meddwl - formal, literary; you'd sound as preposterous using it in speech as you would walking around Croydon speaking Shakespearean English.
Yr ydwyf yn meddwl - as above, just has the now meaningless particle yd- included, just because.

They all mean "I think" or "I am thinking".

[ 08. November 2017, 09:27: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Inflected ("short form") future - confess I take refuge in the periphrastic form using bydd- the big variation (outside of the small number of high frequency irregular verbs like Cael, gwneud, mynd, dod) is in the 3rd sing - can end in -th or -ff depending where you are.

Ah I didn't know that.

The main problem with the shortened form is establishing the stem, which isn't always easy.

It feels easier to say
Byddiff e'n.. (he will be) rather than [verb-stem]-ff e'n (he will do x), particularly when there are complications about which way to mutate for the question and negative and how to use "o" - as in ohono i.

That's hard to translate, but means "of" me/you/he/she/it and you use it in the negative.

Only apparently some people don't use it at all. Go figure.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Bydd doesn't use either ending for third sing, just to be confusing. It's just bydd.

[ 08. November 2017, 09:41: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Yeah, mo (from dim o) instead of plain dim to negate inflected verbs is a mare. Welais i ddim fo - nope, you've got to say Welais i mohono....

Or, just cheat - "Nes i ddim ei weld o...."

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Bydd doesn't use either ending for third sing, just to be confusing. It's just bydd.

Oops sorry it didn't feel correct when I was typing..

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is it possible you mean hwyl? As per this BBC Welsh lesson

quote:
'Hwyl' has a variety of meanings in Welsh. Some of the most common are these:

'Hwyl' meaning the sail of a ship; 'hwyl' - meaning fun; 'hwyl' meaning good bye or good luck. But 'hwyl' can also refer to a person's physical or mental condition. So 'Sut hwyl oedd arno fe?' means literally: 'What kind of a mood was on him?', in other words 'How was he?' Sometimes the plural 'hwyliau' is used instead of the singular 'hwyl'. 'Sut hwyliau oedd arno fe?' So, instead of the usual 'Bore da' on a Monday morning, why not impress your friends by asking: 'Sut hwyl sydd arnat ti y bore yma?'
It's fairly common just to hear people say "hwyl" - as a cheery "bye".

Cool thanks.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Welsh is by no means the only language with very wide dialectal variations, and a 'literary' language which sits more-or-less outside or above them, though admittedly in a smaller geographical space than many others. But then, Wales is much bigger than it looks!

In German, for instance, Hochdeutsch (='High Geman') is almost as far removed from some common dialects, such as the everyday German of parts of Switzerland, as English is.

And don't get me started on the many variations of Arabic, and their complex relationship to the Arabic of the Koran.

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

As Gren said,, if Wales were flattened out, it would be much bigger than England!

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

Got another question: how offensive (or not) is twp (daft, stupid) - it's regularly used within my (English-speaking) family in a manner that I would definitely characterise as gentle banter not being nasty. Is it one of those things that is now politically incorrect to use or is it still in common parlance?

Asking for a friend [Biased]

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Got another question: how offensive (or not) is twp (daft, stupid) - it's regularly used within my (English-speaking) family in a manner that I would definitely characterise as gentle banter not being nasty. Is it one of those things that is now politically incorrect to use or is it still in common parlance?

Asking for a friend

I don't think I'd use the word to a work colleague, I must say; but it's fine in family banter. 'Daft' or 'thick' probably convey the current meaning best in English.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Got a question for you Welsh speakers out there. So how does hoil best translate (I may have the spelling wrong) - usually seems to mean something along the lines of passion, zeal, spirit.

I have a vague recollection of being told a Welsh greeting was sut hoil meaning "how is your spirit?". Is that correct or is my memory failing me (highly likely)?

I'm not a Welsh speaker, but a Wenglish one ...

Yes, 'hwyl' does have the connotations you list, particularly in South Wales.

'Soul' would be the nearest English or American-English equivalent.

When I was growing up it wasn't unusual to hear people say things like, 'He's got the hwyl, that preacher ...'

Or, 'He do 'ave the hwyl, aye. He do 'ave the hwyl on him.'

Others more knowledgeable than I am can say more about the regional variations with this one.

My impression is that in North Wales it tends to be more associated with 'fun' or perhaps what the Irish call 'the craic', whereas in South Wales it tends to be associated with religious enthusiasm.

It's more specific than that though, it didn't simply mean zeal or enthusiasm (although it carried that connotation) but a particular style of preaching too where the preacher would become carried away and transported by their own rhetoric with a strikingly hypnotic effect.

Given the cadence of the Welsh language - and Welsh-English too - one can readily imagine how this could happen.

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

Thanks andras- thought it was worth asking before I got myself into trouble [Biased]

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

And thanks too to Gamaliel on hwyl that makes more sense to me if there is a north/south variation. Ta.

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Haven't been on for ages: busy life & learning Welsh. I don't find the mutations too bad as they make pronunciation easier.

The problems, as with any language learning, is usage. Here in Cardiff it isn't spoken much. Mind you in "Coffee 1" in Roath on Saturday a young couple were chatting away in Welsh!

I'm using children's books that have CDs to help between classes. "Sam Tan" ("Fireman Sam" - my keyboard won't do a "ty bach" - sorry) is great fun as there are easy pages (suitable for a beginner like me) and more complex ones. Maybe I'm just a big kid at heart!

Our teacher has said not to use Dualingo. I had started and another lady in our class was also using it. Apparently there are a number of mistakes in it as you go on. I don't speak the language properly so can't comment. But I'll take her word for it.

Language is fascinating. I was rubbish at school, until I did a course in Descriptive Linguistics and now I enjoy languages.

Karl: re Celtic language in N Portugal. Yes, there was a Celtic language in the isolated mountains of N Portugal being used by a few old people in a very small village in the early '80s. It has gone, no doubt now with their deaths. My professor at Lisbon uni specialised in Celtic languages (great fun for a Scot learning Portuguese in Lisbon!) and was recording and anaylsing it. Apparently at that time the only way to get ballot boxes in and out was through mountain passes using donkeys, unless you had a Land Rover! If you ever go to the north, around Guimareas there are various Celtic ruins. We Celts got everywhere!

Sad when languages go, but if no one speaks them.......that's why we need to get them recorded, if we can, before they go completely.

Right going to stop now and get on with my gwaith cartref for tonight's class.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Hahaha, that's funny - one of my tutors in Gwent helped to write the content for Duolingo, so they've very keen to encourage people to use it here.

I think the main problem with it is that it doesn't really map very well onto what is taught in the classes. So I can believe it would confuse people.

On the chatting issue, here in Gwent there are various informal settings where learners are encouraged to chat. I'm not sure what happens in Cardiff but I'd be surprised if there are not various opportunities to practice the language there too. Can your tutor - or whoever organises the classes - point you in the direction of any?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

to bach - a ty bach is the bogs.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Re. Survival of continental Celtic in Portugal - I've drawn a complete blank. A dialect of Romance with lots of unique Celtic fearures I cam imagine, but a lone Celtic isolate - I'd expect to be able to find some citation. Such a language would be of great interest to Celticists as so much is unknown about continental Celtic languages.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

When my wife and I lived in Lisbon in 1982, she got friendly with a research student who was investigating the last few speakers of a language, presumably Celtic, in the Tras-os-Montes region of Portugal. I expect it has died out by now.

This was a time when some remote villages still had neither electricity nor a road connecting them to the wider world.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

This was a time when some remote villages still had neither electricity nor a road connecting them to the wider world.

It seems unlikely that this would have been a celtic language, as the sources seem to suggest that all celtic dialects in the region died out before the year 1000.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
When my wife and I lived in Lisbon in 1982, she got friendly with a research student who was investigating the last few speakers of a language, presumably Celtic, in the Tras-os-Montes region of Portugal. I expect it has died out by now.

This was a time when some remote villages still had neither electricity nor a road connecting them to the wider world.

I would say presumably not Celtic, for the reasons given above. So little is known of the ancient Celtiberian languages that such a survival would be massive news in Celtic studies.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

This article implies that the minority language of the region is indeed Mirandese http://intheknowtraveler.com/visit-celtic-portugal/

Mirandes is a Romance language. The local culture is popularly described as Celtic, but the language isn't.

Whether there are more Celtic loans in Mirandese than standard Portuguese I am not qualified to say. But I can find no reference anyway to an endangered or recently extinct actual Celtic language in the Iberian peninsula. It'd be like finding a live (or recently extinct) non-avian dinosaur wandering around North Africa; palaentologists would be all over it like a rash.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I bow to your erudition! [Cool]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Not sure if anyone is still following this thread, but I thought maybe if there was, we could share our favourite newly-learned welsh phrases.

Ych a fi tickled me. I think it just means bleugh, but somehow it seems a very Welsh way to say it.

Our Welsh tutor has a good sense of humour, which is fortunate because much of the stuff we're learning sounds unintentionally funny.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

I suppose that by now everybody knows pobty ping as a slang term for a meicrodon.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

One naturally thinks of all the cafés called the Hoffi Coffi... (to like coffee). Though as a Gog learner I say Licio anyway.

A nice one for mutation practice: Dw i'n licio dy gar di mwy na ei char hi neu fy nghar i - "I like your car more than her car or my car"

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

I was once asked by an English monoglot what the Welsh word for Coffee was, and when I told him he laughed at the fact that there was no native Welsh word for it.

The fact that there was equally no native English word had apparently passed right by him. Poor dab!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Oh, I don't know: the native product is very nice.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I find words that begin si or sg beguiling. Some are borrowed words (not always from English!) but the spelling is inspired.

Siampaen is good. Also sgrechian, siachmate and siampŵ.

That's champagne, shrieking, checkmate and shampoo.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Welsh has always written loan-words as if they were Welsh, and has often mutated them into the bargain. It can look a little odd to English eyes, but 'cinwa' makes far more sense than 'quinoa'.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Tsiec mêt, surely? '-mate' would be pronounced as two syllables. Sgrechian was I think borrowed from Old English.

[ 01. December 2017, 18:24: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

How should you write the word normally spelt "cwtch"? It's the obvious way to write it, but it doesn't obey the rules of either Welsh or English spelling, as you can't use a -tch combination in Welsh as far as I know.
You can't write it as "cwch" as that would be pronounced differently (and anyway it's the Welsh for "boat").
Just wondered if the experts had any views as it has always puzzled me - particularly when I was doing supply teaching in primary schools and children asked how to spell it!

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Tsiec mêt, surely? '-mate' would be pronounced as two syllables. Sgrechian was I think borrowed from Old English.

I made an error above in copying the word from my dictionary - it has it as siachmat rather than what I wrote before. Tsiec mêt would make more sense given Tsienini (China) and Tscimpansi spell the "ch" sound like that. But it isn't an option in my dictionary and I can't find anywhere else that uses that spelling.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Mine was a guess.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Aravis - dw i'di gweld 'cwtsh' / I've seen 'cwtsh' but it's an odd one.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
How should you write the word normally spelt "cwtch"? It's the obvious way to write it, but it doesn't obey the rules of either Welsh or English spelling, as you can't use a -tch combination in Welsh as far as I know.
You can't write it as "cwch" as that would be pronounced differently (and anyway it's the Welsh for "boat").
Just wondered if the experts had any views as it has always puzzled me - particularly when I was doing supply teaching in primary schools and children asked how to spell it!

There seem to be both cwtch and cwtsh in the wild (for example there are shops using both alternatives in Newport) and there seems to be some debate about the correct spelling.

My money is on cwtsh because ch is the wrong sound in Welsh, but interestingly my dictionary doesn't have either.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

GPC says cwts or cwtsh, from Middle English Couche, a couch. It's what you do on one, I suppose.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I've founds another page that suggests cwtsh/cwtch is a N/S difference, and another suggesting that cwtch is more wanglish (the Welsh-English hybrid dialect particularly found in the valleys) than Welsh.

So I guess you can take your pick of which version you like best.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Cwtch is definitely Wenglish; it'd be virtually unpronounceable wwre it Welsh.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
There seem to be both cwtch and cwtsh in the wild (for example there are shops using both alternatives in Newport) and there seems to be some debate about the correct spelling.

My money is on cwtsh because ch is the wrong sound in Welsh, but interestingly my dictionary doesn't have either.

There were plaques with both spellings on sale in Cardiff Christmas market the other night. I'd not seen the "s" version before, but overheard the stallholder telling someone that he believed it was the more authentic spelling.

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Don't have any problems pronouncing cwtch. Will ask my Welsh teacher on Tues night about the debate.

Don't think it's Wenglish as there are no English words that I can think of being similar. Cwtch is not in my Welsh Learner's Dictionary.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Don't have any problems pronouncing cwtch.

Try pronouncing it according to the rules of Welsh orthography, with 'ch' as in 'chi'

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Speaking as an English person living on the English side of the water, whatever else it might be, cwtch is definitely Wenglish, as is twp. Dap isn't though. That seems to be found more or less wherever the Great Western Railway ran.

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Thanks.

For a Scot "ch" and "chi" don't sound the same.

Every Welsh person I've talked to here in Cardiff - teacher, friends, church folks, say that it sounds as the Scots "ch"
i.e. in in loch (but then most Sassenachs can't pronounce it properly).
"Duo-lingo" and "Speaking Welsh" also say it should be pronounced as Scottish "ch."

If you listen to Radio Cymru it is the same. Even "Sam Tan" on S4C pronounces it as a Scottish "ch"(brilliant for practicing Welsh is "Sam Tan")

Anyway will talk to my teacher tonight who is a native Welsh speaker and translator of documents/books etc. into Welsh. Maybe she can shed some light on cwtch.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I think the issue is that most people pronounce cwtch as "kuch" - and the letter ch in cymraeg is a harsher sound. Even ignoring the t in cwtch wouldn't normally sound like how most people say the word.

The softer "ch" sound is more like English as in "church" - and other words in cymraeg which have that kind of sound use "tsi".

I think most Welsh speakers generally accept cwtch as a bit of an exception to the general pronunciation rules.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Thanks.

For a Scot "ch" and "chi" don't sound the same.

There are two pronunciations of chi is English and they mean different things.

There is chi sometimes spelt Qi from Chinese medicine and has a soft 'ch'

Then there is chi, the name of the Greek letter 'χ' which has the hard Scottish 'ch' sound. That is how you are taught it regardless of how it is said by mathematicians.

Jengie

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Jengie, I don't think I agree. Yes the Chinese word is pronounced chee in English, But I've usually heard the Greek letter pronounced as though it were ky, 'sky' without the 's'. The sound in 'loch' is quite different. It doesn't usually occur in RP but crops up in various place names, borrowed words and exclamations. I'm probably demonstrating my linguistic ignorance but it's fairly near the sound that is sometimes transcribed from other languages as ḥ.

I can't offhand think of an example in any sort of English where that sound comes at the beginning of a word. There may well be one, but it might just be one of those sounds like 'x' that in English virtually always has to have a vowel in front of it. Can you say 'xylophone' or 'Xavier' without any sort of schwa at all?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I don't think there is really a comparable sound in English to the Welsh ch.

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :

I've often wondered about the Lancashire expression "Hutch up", meaning to squeeze together on a seat so an extra person can sit down. Could this have been derived from "cwtch"?

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Noswaith dda.

Just come back from Welsh lesson. Yes, Cwtch is Welsh, so says a native Welsh speaker; my tutor, who works for the Welsh Government translating into Welsh and also tutoring at Cardiff uni. We discussed in class whether it was Wenglish and no one thinks it is.

Language is always evolving and Welsh is no exception. So there will be new words that may be indigenous or borrowed incorporated from time to time - just has happened in English itself. Added to that there is N & S Welsh which also varies. So Welsh is complex.

But no one could think of an English word in common usage, that links phonetically or definition-wise with cwtch. But it's a lovely onomatopaic word.

Hope that is helpful.

Nadolig Llawen.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I also discussed this with my tutor, who is a native speaker.

He said that the word is correctly spelled cwts - which makes a lot more sense in terms of pronunciation. Apparently it became wanglified when the "h" was added to the end of the word.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

As I said upthread, according to the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru it's from Middle English Couche, meaning a couch. The meaning of the gair Cymraeg has shifted from the furniture to what one (or rather two) might to upon it.

[ 05. December 2017, 21:38: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Maddeningly, it turns out that Y Gwyll is only available on Netflix here in English... or Polish. I was looking forward to listening in Welsh with English subtitles (I can sing lustily in Welsh but not speak it).

In the meantime I would like to know how so much French - eglwys (church), bont (bridge), Duw (God) has made its way into the language.

[ 05. December 2017, 21:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I hadn't thought of doing this before, but I looked up the word(s) in the Welsh Newspaper Archive. I found the following exchange:

22 February 1887, The Western Mail

"Cwtch"

To the Editor,

Sir - Your correspondent "Morien" in his sketch of the recent colliery accident states that "cwtch" is Welsh for "nook". I venture, not withstanding "Morien's" great erudition, to question his interpretation of the word. It is not to be found in any dictionary or used by any Welsh scholar. I think it is a corruption of the word "couch". The Rhondda valley abounds with bastard imitations of English words, and the colliers are gradually forming an original language of their own"

Yours, etc Cymro

23rd February 1887, The Western Mail

"Cwtch"

To the Editor,

Sir - the only mistake which I made in respect of the above name, to which "Cymro" calls attention, was in the spelling of it. In the hurry of the moment "cwtch" instead of "cwts". "Cwt" means a little place; and in Glamorgan a tail is styled "cwtws". "Cwt" means also, that which terminates abruptly. The English word "cot" is derived from it as also is "cut".

<snip>

"cwt" is not derived from the English "cut" or "cot" and not even from "couch" as "Cymro" seems to suppose.

The "Cwts," or Nook, of the Rhondda Vach is a short cut or offshoot of the dale and is very descriptive of the spot.

It will be noted that "cwt" is the name in the proper form; but in South Wales "cwt" has long become "cwtws" to a tail. But to distinguish a hovel or a sty, or an abrupt termination like this nook, the Glamorgan people have dropped the last "w" (sounded oo) in the name and have called it "cwts" but continued to give the name "cwtws" for a tail.

<snip>

Morien

(edited for length)

Which goes to show that similar discussions have been going on a very long time!

It also seems that the meaning of the word has changed, today associated with a cuddle rather than a small hole or cupboard.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

In the meantime I would like to know how so much French - eglwys (church), bont (bridge), Duw (God) has made its way into the language.

I think it's more that the French and the Welsh are both derived from Latin while the English words aren't - which would make sense as the Brythonic Celts and the Romans lived together for centuries, whereas the English and the Romans didn't.

Also some of the sound changes from Latin to early French are similar to the sound changes from early Celtic to Welsh, which is sometimes attributed to a residual Celtic presence in late Roman Gaul - so Latin-derived words look similar in both languages.

ecclesia > eglwys, église
pons > pont, pont
Deus > Duw, Dieu

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

And how did English end up with 'window'?

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
And how did English end up with 'window'?

Window is Norse - the original sense of it is 'Wind Eye'.

As a general thing, and with all sorts of exceptions, words of Latin origin which have ended up as Welsh loan words have tended to come from Gaulish Latin rather than the Roman form.

The Gauls, for instance, seem to have had difficulty pronouncing the initial sc- in such Latin words as scala (ladder) and scholae (school) and so inserted a helpful vowel in front, giving modern French échelle and école respectively, where the accent on the é marks the disappearance of the -s- (which was still there in Middle French, and indeed lasted until the 17th Century or later).

And, of course, modern Welsh still proudly has ysgol, with both the Gaulish-inspired 'incorrect' initial vowel and the -s- still in full view.

Relating Welsh llaw to Latin palma takes a bit more effort, and I'm not going to do it here; but the two words are indeed cognate. Linguistics is fun!

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

In the meantime I would like to know how so much French - eglwys (church), bont (bridge), Duw (God) has made its way into the language.
I think it's more that the French and the Welsh are both derived from Latin while the English words aren't - which would make sense as the Brythonic Celts and the Romans lived together for centuries, whereas the English and the Romans didn't.

Also some of the sound changes from Latin to early French are similar to the sound changes from early Celtic to Welsh, which is sometimes attributed to a residual Celtic presence in late Roman Gaul - so Latin-derived words look similar in both languages.

ecclesia > eglwys, église
pons > pont, pont
Deus > Duw, Dieu

This. There also some less obvious ones:

Saggita --> Saeth
Exiguus --> Eisiau

It's also been observed (although its significance is contested) that proto-Italic and proto-Celtic were very close. Hence we have some still obvious cognates:

Uentus/Gwynt (wind, also cognate of course)
Senex/Hen (old, proto-Celtic S- routinely became H- in Welsh)
Quis/pwy (who, Welsh of course is P-Celtic)

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,

But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!

But you're right that it isn't possible to be certain that Welsh and Gaulish didn't just happen to go down the same route without any influence between them.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
... Just come back from Welsh lesson. Yes, Cwtch is Welsh, so says a native Welsh speaker; my tutor, who works for the Welsh Government translating into Welsh and also tutoring at Cardiff uni. We discussed in class whether it was Wenglish and no one thinks it is. ...

This may be incorrect usage in Wales, but over here, a Welsh word or grammatical construction being used without really thinking about it when a person is speaking English - including by an English monoglot from Wales - definitely counts as Wenglish.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,
But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!

You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Well, aye, mun ...

I doarn knoar all the ins an' outs, mind, but I grew up with Wenglish, even though I do talk the Queen's English tidy (with a South Walian accent nevertheless) as an educated man ...

[Biased]

So, yes, 'cwtch' or 'cwtsh' comes from the Middle English 'couche' via Norman French and took on several meanings as things developed. It's very much a Valleys word.

Now, 'Poor Dab' - with poor pronounced 'poo-er', that's an expression I've not heard in many a long year.

Oh, the hiraeth ....

[Waterworks]

I aff to say, mind, as I'm taken with the way yew lorrave gor to grips with things and how they're learning yew to talk tidy.

I doarn do ah no more.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,
But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!

You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha

Doesn't that leading 'e-' actually come rather later in that particular case? When the word drifted into English for the fourth suit of cards it came as 'spades', though 'swords' would have made more sense.

Not trying to be picky, just curious about that specific example; and I still suspect - thanks to simple geography - a strong Gaulish Latin influence on what I suppose we should call Brythonic, though all my instincts are to call it Early Welsh.

But then I'm a maverick here; I have strong suspicions that Y Gododdin is 'really' Pictish rather than Welsh, but that that's really a distinction without much of a difference.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,
But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!

You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha
Doesn't that leading 'e-' actually come rather later in that particular case? When the word drifted into English for the fourth suit of cards it came as 'spades', though 'swords' would have made more sense.

Not trying to be picky, just curious about that specific example; and I still suspect - thanks to simple geography - a strong Gaulish Latin influence on what I suppose we should call Brythonic, though all my instincts are to call it Early Welsh.

But then I'm a maverick here; I have strong suspicions that Y Gododdin is 'really' Pictish rather than Welsh, but that that's really a distinction without much of a difference.

Cumbric rather than Pictish; the versions we have are definitely Welsh, but the original composition would be an older form of the language.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

On Welsh epenthetic vowels, they're absent from Cornish as far as I know which points to an independent Welsh origin.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
On Welsh epenthetic vowels, they're absent from Cornish as far as I know which points to an independent Welsh origin.

Yes, I think that's right. Good point!

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Anyone been watching un bore mercher (it's a drama which translates as "one Wednesday morning") on S4c?

It's quite good.. although a bit disturbing in a few ways, particularly the portrayal of disabled people as scary and gay people as disloyal.

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Pictish? We don't know what Pictish was or sounded like! It doesn't exisit as a language any more!
Do you mean Scottish Gaelic and do you mean Western (most common) or eastern (almost extinct)?

We had a neighbour in London, who fancied himself as a linguist because he could speak a couple of languages (that's NOT what a linguist is). He tried to link all languages together as coming from common causes, with the most weird theories. Unless you have studied linguistics and know the languages I'd beware of making supposed connections.

There is no doubt that certain languages have common "loan" words or evolve from close neighbours but sometimes theorising can get very silly. Last night, in Welsh class, we made a list of "loan" words in Welsh or as ends up Wenglish - great game when you are bored at Christmas.

As to S4C - I'm at "Sam Tan" level myself. At the moment and enjoy every minute of it. Maybe I'm in my second - or is it -3rd childhood!!

My kitchen radio is tuned to Radio Cymyru - not that I can understand everything but it helps me to "tune in" to the language.

Anyway Nagolid LLanwen evryone,

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Pictish (there may have been more than one Pictish language) is an enigma. It was probably (from what we know) Brythonic, but whether it was dervied from form which gave rise to Breton/Welsh/Cornish/Cumbric or a separate branch is unclear.

However, the Gododdin (and other works of Beirdd Hen Ogledd) would have been originally composed in Cumbric - another language of which we know it existed but not much else. To what degree the archaic Cumbric of their period would have differed from the archaic Welsh of the same period is disputable; later Cumbric certainly was distinct. It's not Pictish though. At this period there is a Gaelic speaking band across Scotland splitting Cumbric from Pictish, even if there had been a continuum a few centuries earlier before Gaelic was brought to Scotland.

Cumbric, by the way, survives in a few place names - Blencathra, Skiddaw, Helvellyn (compare Welsh words Blaen, Cadair, Ysgwd, Melyn), Lanark (Llannerch), Glasgow (Glas and Cau). I'm more than a little sceptical of the Yan, Tan, Tethera sheep counts however.

It's true though that few fields have more people with outlandish theories than linguistics. The internet is full of people trying to "revive" Cumbric, for example. Rather tricky based on three words in an English document which where probably corrupted as they were transcribed, place names (which are notoriously shifting) and guesswork. It's like the people who claim Breton and Welsh speakers can understand each other. They can indeed - if they learn the other one's language first. I know a number of Breton speakers who are learning Welsh, but they do indeed need to learn it to communicate. I treat claims of survival of traditional Cornish into the early 20th C with the same scepticism. People love tales of mutual comprehensibility (Breton and Welsh are a lot more different than, for example, Scots and English, and most English speakers struggle to parse Rabbie Burns) and language survival (my mother spoke Cornish and her uncle spoke Dalmatian* back in the 1920s, honest!)

*the extinct language, not the dog.

The only problem with Radio Cymru is Tommo. I cannot abide the man.

[ 13. December 2017, 14:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

It's true that we don't 'know' what Pictish was or sounded like; but from the very large number of P-Celtic placenames in Pictavia we can certainly make a reasonable supposition that it was very closely related to what I think of as Early Welsh, with a high degree of mutual comprehension between speakers.

If a Kentucky coal-miner and a Glaswegian engineer both speak dialects of English, then I'm not shy of saying that 'closely related' here means much the same as 'dialects of the same language'.

For such Brythonic place-names in the Pictish area I instance Ecclefechan, Paisley, Auchtermuchty, Perth, Peebles and the name of Bridei III's great fort of Dundurn ('the fort of the fist'); but there are so many more more that it would be pointless to list them here.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

As is well known, almost all the languages in Europe are related, and referred to as Info-European. The exceptions are Basque, Hungarian, Finnish, Saami and Maltese. Maltese is related to Arabic, Hebrew etc. Hungarian, Finnish and Saami come from further east. There were other languages that were unrelated but they are lost. A widespread current view is that the other languages spread through Europe with agriculture. Presumably in some places when people acquired agriculture, they carried on speaking what they spoke before. The Etruscans, in Tuscany, spoke one, but Basque is the only one that has survived to the present.

Because next to nothing is known about Pictish, there has been some conjecture that it might have been another of those. Like a lot of things that are impossible to reach any sensible conclusion about, people can choose to project onto Pictish what their imagination would like it to have been, whether like Welsh, Gaelic, or neither. Or we can accept that we just do not know, and probably never will.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Ecclefechan is from the Cumbric speaking part of Southern Scotland (could have been Rheged or Strathclyde; the boundaries are far from clear and doubtless shifted). Dundurn is I understand generally taken to be a Gaelic form, although the words in both are quite similar (Welsh Din(as), dwrn). Thing is we don't know if it's what Bridei called it.

That Pictish was P-Celtic is generally accepted; how closely related to Old Welsh is more in dispute. There may have been another Pictish language which may underlie the otherwise inscrutable Pictish inscriptions which may have been non-Indoeuropean.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Sir John Rhys, of course - born not twenty miles from where I'm writing this - certainly thought that the Picts weren't Celts; I think he toyed with the idea that they were Etruscan or something equally unlikely, but I could be imagining that. But I don't think that view is at all tenable today, certainly as regards most of mainland Scotland. The far north may be a different question, and one about which I know absolutely nothing!

The question of what Bridei may have called his hill-fort is an interesting one, to which of course there's no final answer; it may well have had more than one name, just as the final battle between Northumbrian and Pictish forces was fought at a place variously called Llyn Garan and Nechtansmere.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Unrhywffordd, Nadolig Llawen i bawb yn dysgu Cymraeg yma, ac i bawb ar y Llong/anyway, Merry Christmas to everyone here learning Welsh, and to everyone on the Ship.

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

Nadolig Llawen, Merry Christmas, i chi!

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Hope you all had a great Christmas. I enjoyed the carols on S4C but still trying to come to grips with some verbs! Next job learn the Welsh national anthem by heart in Welsh.

Wonder what you would make of Auchinshuggle and Milingavie? Nothing to do with Pictish, just lalands Scots.

The Picts came from the east side of Scotland around Angus/Fife area.There is so much conjecture out there.

Yes I agree with Hungarian being different from the other European languages, but I don't think it's related to Saami, unless that is Estonian. Finish, Estonian and Hungarian are distantly related but not mutually intelligible. The intonation patterns are the same, so the music of the languages resonates but they have altered and gone their own ways over the centuries, as is usually the case. If you think learning Welsh is bad, Hungarian is worse with vowel harmony!

Linguists in Hungary are now saying that the roots of the language come from beyond the Urals with the Great Migration.

Right now, I'm off to make some "cawl" and then try and write up my Welsh diary!!!!! No more lessons until 9th!

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:

Linguists in Hungary are now saying that the roots of the language come from beyond the Urals with the Great Migration.

Hungarian is in the Uralic language family which does also include the Saami languages as well as Finnish and Estonian. I think the the usual proposed origin for the Uralic languages are the northern Ural mountain region with debates on exactly which side.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Blwyddyn Newydd Dda i bawb!

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I decided to buy a TV (and license!) in 2018 in order to spend more time watching s4c yn Gymraeg (in Welsh). Newyddion 9 (the 9 o'clock news) is something of a revelation - along with the interesting instant translation. But there are lots of good things to sample - hurrah for es pedwar ec (s4c, um, in Welsh).

I'm not sure if anyone else is interested, but I've also enjoyed watching Cerys Matthews in this programme about the hymn Calon Lân (a pure heart).

Cerys speaks clearly and quite slowly so I find it good to follow along with (with the subtitles) unlike some of the other speakers in the programme who speak quite fast.

I also learnt about the concept of "macaronic" language - where Welsh poets deliberately played with words and phrases from other languages in their work.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Efallai fod di'n mwynhau ei CD hi "Tir" / You might enjoy her album "Tir".

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You might enjoy her album "Tir".

I doubt it, I can't stand her singing.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I decided to buy a TV (and license!) in 2018 in order to spend more time watching s4c yn Gymraeg (in Welsh). Newyddion 9 (the 9 o'clock news) is something of a revelation - along with the interesting instant translation. But there are lots of good things to sample - hurrah for es pedwar ec (s4c, um, in Welsh).

I'm not sure if anyone else is interested, but I've also enjoyed watching Cerys Matthews in this programme about the hymn Calon Lân (a pure heart).

Cerys speaks clearly and quite slowly so I find it good to follow along with (with the subtitles) unlike some of the other speakers in the programme who speak quite fast.

I also learnt about the concept of "macaronic" language - where Welsh poets deliberately played with words and phrases from other languages in their work.

A lot of us have been singing macronic verses in church and elsewhere over the last few weeks - hymns and carols in English or Welsh with part of the text in Latin - In excelsis gloria!

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Radio Cymru is on in my kitchen, to help me tune in to the language intonation. Can't understand everything but it does help.

I'm now trying to learn the Welsh National Anthem properly - some good stuff on-line with the words and a singer. so you can get it right. Then there is Nigel Jenkins' version of the National Anthem for non-Welsh speakers, "My hen laid a haddock......" eek!! I'd rather stick to learning the Welsh. Singing is a good way to learn languages.

Also now subscribe to "Lingo Newydd" which is excellent for those learning Welsh.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Radio Cymru is on in my kitchen, to help me tune in to the language intonation. Can't understand everything but it does help.

I'm now trying to learn the Welsh National Anthem properly - some good stuff on-line with the words and a singer. so you can get it right. Then there is Nigel Jenkins' version of the National Anthem for non-Welsh speakers, "My hen laid a haddock......" eek!! I'd rather stick to learning the Welsh. Singing is a good way to learn languages.

Also now subscribe to "Lingo Newydd" which is excellent for those learning Welsh.

The 'Hen laid a Haddock' thing is a bloody insult. Do that in any other language and you'd have the wrath of God visited on you. It's not even accurate.

Radio Cymru - it so depends on the presenters. I can follow the "BBC Welsh" ones, but some of the more dialectual speakers, especially the fast ones - I'm lost. Tommo can go and get lost in an unknown flooded passage in Dan yr Ogof as far as I'm concerned; I don't need my Welsh shouted in the manner of a football commentator.

As for Cerys, well, bless her cotton socks, she's distinctive, let's put it that way. Anyone else noticed that the two things you can't sing along to without ending up with a Welsh accent are Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah and anything by Catatonia*? I swear I sound more English singing Mae Hen Wlad fy Nhadau.. although fy Nhadau lived in Lancashire.

*Is it just me, or is there a line in Mulder and Scully that works better in Welsh than English - "Stop doing what you keep doing it to me?" something like "Paid a gwneud beth ti'n ei wneud i mi?"

[ 07. January 2018, 22:30: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Couldn't agree with more about the "My hen..." Welsh National Anthem. Do you think we could have them racism?!!

I wonder if anyone can help - my Welsh teacher wasn't any help at all in explaining the below.

In class we learned ages ago that to ask a person's name you use the phrase: "Pwy dych chi?" or "Pwy wyt ti?"

No problems there. But the Usborne "Welsh for Beginners" (pub 2001) that I bought when I first came here says "Beth ydy enw di?" which I presume is another way of asking what is you name? I was looking through the book just as a revision exercise after been doing Welsh classes and was struct with the difference.

My teacher, a native Welsh speaker, last night, said it must be an old form of Welsh!! She couldn't really explain the difference. Help.

Welsh, being such a rich language, does have so many ways of saying the same thing. Can someone enlighten me on which is the correct way of saying it? And if both are valid which you use when. I have always used the "Pwy dychi chi/wyt ti? phrase.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I think it is about simplicity, politeness and regional differences. Many tutors teach outside of where they grew up so struggle to give or explain the prescribed form of the language used in your course.

I'm not sure is it so different in English.

Who are you? - accurate, but possibly a bit aggressive

What's your name? - accurate but possibly a bit bland/textbook

I suspect most people would say (a regional variation of) - Hi, how are you - I'm blahdiblah.

Which technically isn't very accurate, because it is one of those situations where we often feel embarrassed to ask new people directly questions, so we make a statement with the expectation that the other person will do likewise and reply in kind.

Welsh seems more direct, but it is a struggle to pick up how people really talk - and hearing an unknown formulation or arrangement of words can easily throw you, I find.

[ 10. January 2018, 11:46: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I've always learnt/used "beth ydy d'enw di/eich enw chi". Missing out the dy before enw seems a bit off; I'd sooner miss out the echo pronoun and say "beth ydy d'enw".

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I've heard the same. Miss out the last di or chi but not the eich or dy.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

In fact I was told that the final pronoun sounds like you are emphasising whose the thing is - it is his name.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
In fact I was told that the final pronoun sounds like you are emphasising whose the thing is - it is his name.

Yes - "What's your name?" - "Beth ydy d'enw?"

"I'm KLB, what's your name?" - "KLB ydw i, beth ydy d'enw di?"

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure is it so different in English.

Who are you? - accurate, but possibly a bit aggressive

What's your name? - accurate but possibly a bit bland/textbook

I suspect most people would say (a regional variation of) - Hi, how are you - I'm blahdiblah.

"I'm terribly sorry, but your name seems to have slipped my mind, would you be so kind as to repeat it". [Devil]

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

Thank you. That is helpful.

I'm on the Welsh Government/Uni course. We have a lovely tutor (S Wales) but she's not really a teacher. The organisation has been helpful with material and I'm going on a speaking day at the beginning of Feb.

Our handbook uses the "pwy dych chi/pwy wyt ti" version.

Thanks again, you are all a great bunch helping this wee Scot learn to speak Welsh.

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

If you like traditional Welsh music and want to practice your Welsh, AND meet a few shipmates as well, you might be interested in coming to a Shipmeet at St Fagans on 24th March [Yipee]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

We've been learning the various conditional and future tenses recently: could, should, would, might, may, could have and so on.

I'm not good at distinguishing these in English so understanding when to use Gallwn i (I can) is a challenge.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
We've been learning the various conditional and future tenses recently: could, should, would, might, may, could have and so on.

I'm not good at distinguishing these in English so understanding when to use Gallwn i (I can) is a challenge.

Gallwn i is "I could". I can is "Gallaf i".

Welsh is a bit short of some of these English auxiliary verbs. We've got "can/could" with Gallu (or sometimes Medru in the North); we've got "I ought" - Dylwn i, but "might/may" is tricker - we have to use a roundabout phrase with "efallai*" - "perhaps" - which of course you'll hear on the streets of Carmarthen as "Falle".

"I might go into town today" - "Efallai y bydda i'n mynd i'r dre heddiw" - lit. "Perhaps (that) I will go into town today"

*Efallai itself comes from Gallu - it's Ef + (g)allai - "it could" - which is why it's followed by a "that" clause, at least in theory. In the example above the "y" is unlikely to be pronounced.

[ 17. January 2018, 08:11: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

Right. But then gallu I think means "able to", so I don't think the conditional forms map exactly onto English can/could. Allwn i goginio cacen? I think that means "Am I able to cook a cake" (which isn't a very sensible question in the personal pronoun) rather than asking permission to make a cake.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
We've been learning the various conditional and future tenses recently: could, should, would, might, may, could have and so on.

I'm not good at distinguishing these in English so understanding when to use Gallwn i (I can) is a challenge.
Gallwn i is "I could". I can is "Gallaf i".

Welsh is a bit short of some of these English auxiliary verbs. We've got "can/could" with Gallu (or sometimes Medru in the North); we've got "I ought" - Dylwn i, but "might/may" is tricker - we have to use a roundabout phrase with "efallai*" - "perhaps" - which of course you'll hear on the streets of Carmarthen as "Falle".

"I might go into town today" - "Efallai y bydda i'n mynd i'r dre heddiw" - lit. "Perhaps (that) I will go into town today"

*Efallai itself comes from Gallu - it's Ef + (g)allai - "it could" - which is why it's followed by a "that" clause, at least in theory. In the example above the "y" is unlikely to be pronounced.

In my recent experience, most English speakers on the television and radio have serious problems with the difference between may and might (with a side-order of when and when not to use can). The Welsh forms seem much more straightforward to me, but then I suppose they would.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Right. But then gallu I think means "able to", so I don't think the conditional forms map exactly onto English can/could. Allwn i goginio cacen? I think that means "Am I able to cook a cake" (which isn't a very sensible question in the personal pronoun) rather than asking permission to make a cake.

Ga i 'neud cacen?

Cael can be used for permission.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Right. But then gallu I think means "able to", so I don't think the conditional forms map exactly onto English can/could. Allwn i goginio cacen? I think that means "Am I able to cook a cake" (which isn't a very sensible question in the personal pronoun) rather than asking permission to make a cake.
Ga i 'neud cacen?

Cael can be used for permission.

To use this as a teaching point for those who don't know, Welsh introduces a direct question with A, which causes a soft mutation in the verb that immediately follows it.

BUT - and this is the clever bit - when the A is omitted, as it almost always is in speech and often in writing, the mutation still takes place.

This rule applies to other mutation-causing elements as well; even when they're omitted, the mutation still happens.

End of lesson!

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Which leads to the interesting situation where the particle is optional, as opposed to often dropped (yes, there is a difference) - for example the particle mi or fe.

Take Mi gerddais i - I walked (Southerners will be more familiar with Fe rather than Mi)

This could also simply be Cerddais i, as the fe/mi is optional.

But sometimes the fe/mi is dropped, but assumed still to be present, hence you will also hear Gerddais i...

Hence you might get:

Cerddais i
Gerddais i
Mi gerddais i
Fe gerddais i

According to dialect. Or, of course, you might also get variations on:

Mi wnes i gerdded
'Nes i gerdded
Gwnes i gerdded
Mi ddaru fi gerdded

All meaning the same thing. The above list is not exhaustive.

A result of this is a generalisation of the soft mutation on finite verb forms, so while the negative should be cherddais i ddim (assumed ni(d) causes mixed mutation), you may hear gerddais i ddim...

[ 18. January 2018, 10:20: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Yes, that's all true and goes rather further than I'd dared. And even very careful speakers and writers will sometimes loudly defend using unmutated forms or 'incorrectly' mutated forms in speech when the grammar book says they shouldn't.

I once had quite an argument with a well-known Welsh poet, who was defending his use in speech of the phrase tri tŷ (three houses) instead of - what he would certainly have written - tri thŷ.

And why not, indeed!

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Yes, that's all true and goes rather further than I'd dared. And even very careful speakers and writers will sometimes loudly defend using unmutated forms or 'incorrectly' mutated forms in speech when the grammar book says they shouldn't.

I once had quite an argument with a well-known Welsh poet, who was defending his use in speech of the phrase tri tŷ (three houses) instead of - what he would certainly have written - tri thŷ.

And why not, indeed!

Indeed why? But then again, Mae gen i dri phlentyn* always sounds weird. I think, on balance, I'd also say tri tŷ, although I'd mutate in writing.

*I have three children /ShipLanguageRules

[ 18. January 2018, 11:59: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

How about this:

Allai fe fynd i'r dosbarth? Is he able (can he) go to the class?

So is it

Allai tri bobl fynd
or
Allai dri bobl fynd

(Can three people..)

[ 18. January 2018, 12:15: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Yes, that's all true and goes rather further than I'd dared. And even very careful speakers and writers will sometimes loudly defend using unmutated forms or 'incorrectly' mutated forms in speech when the grammar book says they shouldn't.

I once had quite an argument with a well-known Welsh poet, who was defending his use in speech of the phrase tri tŷ (three houses) instead of - what he would certainly have written - tri thŷ.

And why not, indeed!
Indeed why? But then again, Mae gen i dri phlentyn* always sounds weird. I think, on balance, I'd also say tri tŷ, although I'd mutate in writing.

*I have three children /ShipLanguageRules

In conversation I suspect most people would say - as I would - Mae gennyf dri o blant, thus neatly passing the problem by on the other side.

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