Thread: Say it in English! Board: The Circus / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
A long while ago, there was a thread in which shipmates sought to speak with one another with only words with Anglo-Saxon or Germanic roots, or words made up of bits from those roots. Words from the Frank lands, or of Latin birth, were not on. Words that came to England before 410, mostly of church things, were iffy and talked about on a word by word looking.

The hard thing was to make the speaking seem not too weird.

When folk fucked up, one said so to another, without being unfriendly, and the fucker-upper was friendly about it too. If the finder of the failing could help the fucker-upper find a better word, that was all to the good.

Can we do this? A good, helpful web spot is here.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Yes. Can you show us?

(Which, I think, qualifies for Germanic roots.)
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Most short words are from English roots. I, you, we, they, the, there, here. It's the long and flashy words that most often come from the Frank lands or the Latins. Most true for words for thoughts that one cannot touch, like freedom, although "freedom" is thoroughly English.

Let's say I want to talk about what I did this weekend. I played on my reckoning tool ("computer" is clearly not English -- "com" tells you!). My most-liked ("favorite" is Frankish!) game has small tiles with Latin runes (A, B, C, and so on), with which one makes words up, down, or over. I can spend great whiles ("time" is not English!) doing nothing else. Also I talk with friends in web land, and drink a drink made from leaves in hot water.

See how it is done? Most of what you want to say can still be said the same way, but for some things you have to find other ways around the truth that all the words you want to write with are not English at root.

(Of a truth, "qualifies" doesn't.)

[ 19. February 2017, 02:02: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
If I may, another resource:

"List of plain English words and phrases" (Wikipedia).
You look up the complicated word (generally Latin- or Greek-based), and you get a list of simpler substitutes.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Wonderful!
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Thanks for your thought-tale about this game. You might also like the thought-tale about the book "Uncleftish Beholding", written this way. At the end is a link to the full book.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
My web spot says "link" is not in Old English but comes from the north lands.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
But not from the nasty Latin!

ETA: Perhaps "click-bridge" could be used for "link"?

[ 19. February 2017, 03:13: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
Mousethief, your own link identifies "time" as OE in origin. I hope that you're not thinking that proto-Germanic is a 'stand alone' language.

"Frankish" was a Germanic language. The Franks were part of that westward Germanic drift until they stopped in Gaul, settled down, and were gallo-romanised. So, strictly speaking, "favourite" is not Frankish, or, at least not Frankish in the strict linguistic sense.

I'm unclear why you want to exclude Norse words, since they are Germanic, and we have contemporary references to dialects of OE and ON being to some degree mutually intelligible.

What do you want to do with a word like ModE "skipper"? "Ship", OE "scip", pron. "ship" or "skip", depending on time and place, ON "skip", but ModE "skipper"< Middle Dutch "schipper". Still Germanic, and conforming to English morphologies.

This sounds like a very fun exercise, but your rules seem to ignore the realities of Germanic linguistics.

Tangentially, when I took up writing poetry again, I realised fairly quickly that I relied on a largely Germanic vocabulary. The form/structure of my poetry also displayed a strongly OE imprint. No surprise, really, since most of my literature studies were OE and ON.

What were the strategies for dealing with pre-410 vocabulary? And why accept certain words predating the Germanic invasions?

[ 19. February 2017, 23:57: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Hmmm...let's see how putting other words (from GoodReads.com) into our words works:

--OTHER: “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Einstein)

OURS: Two things are big as forever: the one whole thing and our not-thinkingness.


--OTHER: "Do you remember me telling you we are practicing non-verbal spells, Potter?"
"Yes," said Harry stiffly.
"Yes, sir."
"There's no need to call me 'sir', Professor."
The words had escaped him before he knew what he was saying.”
(J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince)

--OURS: "Do you bring-thoughts-back of me telling you we are making-good-by-doing-over no-word spells, Potter"
"Yes," said Harry stiffly.
"Yes, sir."
"There's no need to call me 'sir', BigDealTeacher."
The words had run out of his mouth before he knew what he was saying.
(J.K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince)
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Anyone to home? Can we go forward?
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Pangolin, the thought is not to work with Germanic words but English words. Anglo Saxon, and words that came from Anglo Saxon words. Words from before the 1066 thing.

410 was picked to freeze the incoming Latin words at some year to keep old comers but block Latin that came with the 1066 folks.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Most short words are from English roots. I, you, we, they, the, there, here.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Most short words are from English roots. I, you, we, they, the, there, here.

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"they" is Norse.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
... What were the strategies for dealing with pre-410 vocabulary? And why accept certain words predating the Germanic invasions?

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What is so special about 410? Unless one accepts Stephen Oppenheimer's argument about the language of the Belgae, in 410 the inhabitants of Britain spoke either Latin or a predecessor of Old Welsh.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
I wonder, can this speech not be said following the words of the leader? The years of our Old Speech, of that we can talk without needing the word-hoard of the South Lands.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
It seems simplest to me to skip words from folk who live near what they call "Our Sea". Tussling over which kind of Old English brings heat, not light.

If we want real Old English, we won't be able to understand it. Like "Beowulf". Unless we are geeks of Old English.

Maybe useful things:

"List of Germanic and Latinate equivalents in English" (Wikipedia).

"List of English words of Anglo-Saxon origin" (Wikipedia).

"List of kennings" (Wikipedia).
These are words of two or more parts, like "whale-road" instead of sea.
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
Oh, My Golden Key,
was that wink for me?
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
'Tis for anyone it fits.

And nice poem.
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
It has been a while. I thought that I should make this new again, and I shall let its laws be as said before.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Ok, I'll try. How about the 23rd Psalm, from the King James Version? (That's how I have it memorized, and most of the language is already in our ballpark. But please feel free to use another version--many are available at that site. ISTM it's ok to change other wording, as long as it's still in our ballpark.)

quote:

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Psalm 23, KJV (Bible Gateway):

23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

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My version:

23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green open fields: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He maketh new my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the scary hollow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they maketh me feel safe.

5 Thou spreadest a table before me with my unfriends looking on: thou blessest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

Or something like that.
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
Well done! I would give you "my fiends" instead of "my unfriends". It brings up a more evil likeness of your unfriends, to my mind, at least.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Fair enough. But one of the resources I listed earlier (IIRC, Etymology Online) suggested "unfriend", so I went with it.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Sorry, that should be Etymology Online. MT click-bridged to it in the OP.
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
GK - You broke the rules! The vocabulary of my bit of literary criticism was OE derived.

BTW, "fiend" does mean an enemy in OE, but in poetry it came to be frequently a sobriquet for Satan as "the fiend".
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Stop complaining. Put up, or shut up!

Do your own adaptation--if not of the psalm, then something else.


 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
*Pangolin stoops to pick up the glove......

I'll think what to choose.
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
I am heavy with work, and have not thought on this strongly, Golden Key. Fear not, I shall give you a new working in the old tongue.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
That's a goodly answer.
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Ok, I'll try. How about ,,,the 23rd Psalm,

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You can see a telling of the Paternoster*** in true Sassenach** on the book of wiki*. It seems it is good for here now, but for five words.

*from Hawaii
**I was being silly but it says Saxon is the Latin telling of Sax (so am truely being good)
*** led into wrong ways
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
[Departing from the fully Anglo-Saxon rules] Sassenach is Welsh for the English. Disqualified.

I'm honestly not sure what you're doing. Could you write it out in full?
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Shall we play the game?
 

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Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
Oh, yes. I said I'd get back, and then forgot about it. (hey! unintended, and all OE!)
 

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