Ship of Fools: Distinct but not separate

Thread: Distinct but not separate Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

OK. God is (the) one (and only ultimate) essence, (the) one (and only ultimate) being (that which is) i.e. philosophical, existential entity, substance, ousia, nature, NOT a person, NOT a hypostasis, consisting of three DISTINCT but NOT SEPARATE Persons, hypostases.

Is there ANY analogy for that (as the primary colour or states of water ones don't work)?

A tripod has three legs, one can envisage a (red, green and blue!) tripod that is three 'kneed', mutually interpenetrating (perichoretic) legs each of which is a-(distinct primary coloured)-leg-of-a-tripod; they cannot be separated and there still be a tripod?

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

I think I will be doing Celtic knotwork again probably on a Mobius band.

Basically, it is possible to do knotwork on a circular object so that at any time you look there appear to be three interweaving strands when if you trace it around with a finger you find there to be only one.

Jengie

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Cool! And there's the triquetra of course. Is there anything else conceptually? 3-phase AC?!

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Is there ANY analogy for that (as the primary colour or states of water ones don't work)?

All analogies break down at some point, or they wouldn't be analogies.
Everything of which we're directly aware is made of material stuff. God is not made of material stuff. Most of the problems with most analogies are due to the fact that things made of material stuff occupy space and therefore exclude anything else made from material stuff from that same space. Anything made from material stuff can be divided into smaller parts (until you get down to the atomic or subatomic level). The three persons of the Trinity are not parts of God.

The other problem is that apart from human beings everything we're aware of is not personal.

One suggestion: I'd pick the integer line. One is different from two and two is different from three. But you can't define one and two without implicity defining three and the rest of the integers. Two is what you get when you add one plus one. Once you've defined that you have implicitly defined the result of adding one plus two, one plus (one plus two), and all the rest. Each integer implies the existence of all the others. The existence of one integer is the existence of all the integers.
In an analogous way, the existence each person of the Trinity is the existence of the others.

[ 31. May 2017, 12:52: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

An old analogy was with light as a wave and a set of particles. I never found it very helpful really, partly because it is a dual system, not triple, but it shows how something can be something else, and also itself.

It reminds me of the old Zen saying, form is emptiness, and emptiness form. But this is not really a relationship at all. Or is it?

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

Make yourself a drink Martin. Say some water with bubbles (Perrier etc) with some Weyburn rye, and pop in an ice cube. If you want to chew up Jesus the Ice Cube, or knock back the Holy Rye Spirit you may, but probably better shaken or stirred. God will make you burp if you drink him too fast.

[ 31. May 2017, 13:21: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

Traditionally the Saint Brigid's Cross was three-armed. Here.
Today they tend to be four-armed though.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Here's my usual example. The legs of a one/three-legged table that are made from a single piece of wood (same essence), distinct, but not separate [Angel]

[ETA more pictures here and here if it helps]

[ 31. May 2017, 13:47: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Thanks guys. Dafyd in particular:

'The three persons of the Trinity are not parts of God'.

God is one in essence and three in person (not one and three in the same attribute which would be a contradiction as one is not three ... unless superposition applies?).

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons (each has an 'I', a distinct centre of consciousness in relationship with the other two 'You's), each Person is fully God.

God is not fully Father
God is not fully Son
God is not fully Holy Spirit

correct so far?

OR are the Persons in superposition? Regardless:

God is fully Father
God is fully Son
God is fully Holy Spirit

as that is not contradiction? Contradiction would be God is fully Father AND God is not fully Father etc?

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

I liked your 'ac' joke. Engineering jokes require a somewhat select audience (you have to find someone who understands the joke, and then further subdivide that small number to find those who enjoy jokes) especially when a minor in another specialism is required, such as theology or (as below) psychotherapy.

I heard a great one at work the other day, which I think was off the cuff -

"What is it with Dr x?"

"Fucking bipolar. Typical control engineer - either hard up against one stop or the other".

What's wrong with the rgb analogy? Father, Son and Holy Spirit not mutually orthogonal, I guess?

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
An old analogy was with light as a wave and a set of particles. I never found it very helpful really, partly because it is a dual system, not triple, but it shows how something can be something else, and also itself.

Unless you go with string theory that particles are also vibrations. Everything is a vibration.

Tangent over.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

You can't do better than Saint Patrick

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
God is fully Father
God is fully Son
God is fully Holy Spirit

I'm not sure.

It's fine if you reverse it:

The Father is fully God
The Son is fully God
The Spirit is fully God

Plus the will of God is one:

The will of the Father is the same as the will of the Son is the same as the will of the Spirit.

But in the end we have a problem, God is bigger than anything we can describe. If you can describe it it isn't fully God.

Finding what God is like is like looking for a needle in a haystack wearing boxing gloves. In the dark.

Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on :

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
You can't do better than Saint Patrick

Blogger Fred Clark noted, in response to that video (among other things), that the doctrine of the Trinity seems more geared towards generating new forms of heresy than actually explaining anything.

quote:
As the Irish twins with the Scottish accents in that video illustrate, one is “allowed” to recite the lawyerly formulations of the Athanasian Creed, but if you stray at all from that narrow path or attempt to say anything more — any positive statements, clarifications, analogies, applications — you’re screwed. And as that video shows, this doctrine creates so many different ways in which you can be screwed that it’s hard not to suspect this was the intention — a doctrine more useful for generating and then condemning heresies than for avoiding error.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

@mark_in_manchester: rgb breaks down because you can separate them.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
@mark_in_manchester: rgb breaks down because you can separate them.

quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

I still think the mixed drink works

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

OK, you can separate them...

What about "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." ? (John 17 v7)

(Not only is biblehub great for backsliders like me who can't remember chapter and verse - even f*cking Google has the Trinity on the brain; if you type 'if I do not go away' it helpfully prompts you with the next words 'the comforter'. So many web folks must be wondering about all this.)

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

I am He
As You are He
As You are Me
And We are all together
- Mmt 6:1-4

Works as well as anything else.

Posted by Paul. (# 37) on :

Supposedly this is very good. I say "supposedly" based on the reactions of some of the people I follow. Personally I found it more annoying than anything.

Although I did sort of like:

quote:
Have you come up with a really helpful analogy? Well done! Now please don't tell anyone about it, ever

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I'm obviously not obeying that last...

Fire (to steal-and adapt a bit--from Martin Luther)

A fire includes in itself:

heat,
light,
and consuming (the action of transforming fuel into something else).

There is no fire that has not all these three characteristics. They cannot be separated out of the fire-as-a-whole.

Neither can they be mistaken for one another.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

It's good to know we're all on the same ship. I'd like to pursue the orthodoxy if I may, which is predicated on classical physics, common sense I feel as I stumble about, in the dark: real concepts like superposition are excluded?

If so, then God is not fully the Father etc: substance is not fully person.

On what basis do we exclude realities that defy common sense? In discussing phenomena that ...

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

The only analogy that works well for me is web pagea Three Wick Candle

Of one substance, the wax and the wicks,
Three distinct persons but equal (in substance and length.
Three flames that are identical in every respect but, when viewed without looking at the candle itself into a darkened room, produce one indivisible light.

[ 01. June 2017, 12:04: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Tried three times with the link to the page with the candle on it. Hopefully you can see it.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

I think that the best analogy is what is written in the Athanasian Creed:

quote:
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ.

More than an analogy, really.

As the soul, mind and body are one person, so the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God - distinct, but not separate.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Although that analogy - soul/mind/body - is itself rather opaque. First you have to reify a soul and a mind, in order to say that they are unified with the body. Of course, you can guess.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only analogy that works well for me is web pagea Three Wick Candle

Of one substance, the wax and the wicks,
Three distinct persons but equal (in substance and length.
Three flames that are identical in every respect but, when viewed without looking at the candle itself into a darkened room, produce one indivisible light.

Isn't that the heresy of tritheism? The idea that the Trinity are three separate gods of the same 'substance'?

This goes back to how you can't really say anything about the Trinity other than a rote recitation of the Athanasian creed without falling afoul of one heresy or another.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The only analogy that works well for me is web pagea Three Wick Candle

Of one substance, the wax and the wicks,
Three distinct persons but equal (in substance and length.
Three flames that are identical in every respect but, when viewed without looking at the candle itself into a darkened room, produce one indivisible light.
Isn't that the heresy of tritheism? The idea that the Trinity are three separate gods of the same 'substance'?

This goes back to how you can't really say anything about the Trinity other than a rote recitation of the Athanasian creed without falling afoul of one heresy or another.

No, because it's one candle not three.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Isn't that the heresy of tritheism? The idea that the Trinity are three separate gods of the same 'substance'?

This goes back to how you can't really say anything about the Trinity other than a rote recitation of the Athanasian creed without falling afoul of one heresy or another.
No, because it's one candle not three.

Monarchianism.

[ 01. June 2017, 17:22: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Although that analogy - soul/mind/body - is itself rather opaque. First you have to reify a soul and a mind, in order to say that they are unified with the body. Of course, you can guess.

Another version of the same analogy is mind/body/function. All pretty concrete.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Although that analogy - soul/mind/body - is itself rather opaque. First you have to reify a soul and a mind, in order to say that they are unified with the body. Of course, you can guess.
Another version of the same analogy is mind/body/function. All pretty concrete.

Also substance/form/function, purpose/means/effect, emotion/thought/action, love/faith/works, etc. Many different expressions of the same analogy.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

I will not stray from Athanasius' logic except in his illogical damnationism of course, of which, in my pitiful ignorance, I was unaware and means that the similarly otherwise blessed Cappadocian Fathers also ... assumed.

So, from the Athanasian Creed

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God (substance) and Lord (substance);

I infer the answer to my question about the non-commutativity of

The Father Person is fully God substance
The Son Person is fully God substance
The Spirit Person is fully God substance

God substance is fully Father Person
God substance is fully Son Person
God substance is fully Holy Spirit Person

In other words

God substance is not fully Father Person
God substance is not fully Son Person
God substance is not fully Holy Spirit Person

(Isn't it just GREAT that Greek hypo-stasis transliterates to Latin sub-stantia! That false identity blurs person and substance so we end up with tritheism. Full on Islamic shirk.)

I just want the premises and the logic.

Posted by Philip Charles (# 618) on :

The trouble with the traditional analogies is that they are static. After all dynamics (as in mechanics) is a quite recent.
I see the persons of the trinity in a dance where no move is ever repeated. The creation and Christ event are moves in this dance. Adjust the analogy to remove modelism, tritheism etc.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Problem with the dance motif - which I like - is that you can't have a dance without discrete dancers, however much the final "product" transcends the individuals concerned.

Posted by Philip Charles (# 618) on :

quote:
you can't have a dance without discrete dancers

Agreed, so some adjustment is needed like bringing in another analogy to sit alongside it, like (horror) a lava lamp. The advantages of this model is that it puts an emphasis on the relationships between the persons and that the Godhead is doing something.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Another version of the same analogy is mind/body/function. All pretty concrete.
Also substance/form/function, purpose/means/effect, emotion/thought/action, love/faith/works, etc. Many different expressions of the same analogy.

Put this into Martin’s formula:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Father Person is fully God substance
The Son Person is fully God substance
The Spirit Person is fully God substance

You get:

quote:
The Father Person is fully God substance/mind/purpose/emotion/love
The Son Person is fully God form/body/means/thought/faith
The Spirit Person is fully God function/effect/action/works

Distinct but not separate. Dynamic not static.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
Supposedly this is very good. I say "supposedly" based on the reactions of some of the people I follow. Personally I found it more annoying than anything.

Although I did sort of like:

quote:
Have you come up with a really helpful analogy? Well done! Now please don't tell anyone about it, ever

So funny. Don't forget that the point is to combat heresy:

quote:
How to combat trinitarian heresy, #4: Have you come up with a really helpful analogy? Well done! Now please don't tell anyone about it, ever

Analogies clearly beget heresies. [Paranoid]

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