Ship of Fools: To planets unknown

Thread: To planets unknown Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

In the Fear of the Lord thread, SusanDoris wrote:

quote:
I think that during the next billion or so years, a human purpose should be to find a way of getting to another Earth-type planet somewhere before the sun does burn out!

One, I'm interested in thoughts such as this. This may mark me as a sociopath, but what generations way into the future do or if they are burnt to a crisp by an expanding sun, does not come into my thinking much. I wish them well, and hope they have a good life, but I do not think of them much (except current generations such as my nieces and friends' children all of who(m?) I wish very well). Are you concerned with those in the 23rd century or beyond? Or is this more a desire for humanity to fill a personal dream?

Secondly, will we get off to another solar system? Would you like to go? Where is the science at? Or do you think we may well evolve to cope with changing conditions in the earth (I exclude the death of the sun here as that seems rather extreme).

Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on :

My Dad didn't give a stuff about Climate Change. He reckoned he'd passed the baton and that was our problem now. I can see where he was coming from.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I think the reason this is - or should be - a concern for us is that the population of another planet will require hundreds of years of planning, and organisation across multiple generations.

More importantly, possibly, we need to learn how to plan and work for things in this way. So the process of some future generation finding somewhere else ot live is directly related to whether we can work long-term today.

So we are stuffed.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

If there is another Earth type planet, it will be occupied. If it is reachable (which is very questionable), we then have the problem of whether we arrive like European conquistadors or Rohingya refugees. Or we think we are the first, but we find we are the second, and are met by the sort of response Syrians were met with in Hungary.

It isn't a solution.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

On present knowledge, and provided we don't mess it up, the earth should be viable for life support for millions of years.

So far as new or additional planets are concerned, there is no viable transport system to get us out of the solar system to a "nearby" goldilocks planet. Even if we find one for sure.

In the "short" term (i.e for a few million years), terraforming Mars would probably be a cheaper alternative earth option. We can't do that yet, but in terms of technology it looks a good deal more achievable than NAFL (nearly as fast as lightspeed) mass transportation.

Unless we find a Stargate in Egypt ...

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

It might be a solution for a handful of people, but do you seriously imagine it will be possible to ship the entire human race to another planet when the sun burns out? And unless we have evolved well beyond our present state by then, it will be the rich and powerful people who decide who gets to go on the New Ark. I doubt they will be interested in ensuring that the best and brightest of humanity is preserved; they'll be scrambling for places for themselves. Result: the New Earth will be populated by people like Trump.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
It might be a solution for a handful of people, but do you seriously imagine it will be possible to ship the entire human race to another planet when the sun burns out? And unless we have evolved well beyond our present state by then, it will be the rich and powerful people who decide who gets to go on the New Ark. I doubt they will be interested in ensuring that the best and brightest of humanity is preserved; they'll be scrambling for places for themselves. Result: the New Earth will be populated by people like Trump.

I can see the plot for a good novel in that one - several in fact.

I'm pretty sure that it's only my lack of knowledge of the SF genre that stops me knowing which ones have been written already.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So far as new or additional planets are concerned, there is no viable transport system to get us out of the solar system to a "nearby" goldilocks planet. Even if we find one for sure.

My expectation is that within my lifetime (ie: within the next 50 years) we will have developed and used the technology to be able to determine whether there are any goldilocks planets within about 50-100 light years of earth - that technology being telescopes. We already know of some, though with stars that produce incredible amounts of radiation (so, if the water on those planets hasn't been ripped apart by radiation, it's not going to be a good new home). The difficult bit will be knowing for sure whether or not any planets there are inhabitable without visiting it (at least sending probes) - Too small and any planets will have lost their liquid core and magnetic field, and solar radiation will have stripped their atmosphere, like Mars. Too big and the gravity will mean our Earth-gravity adapted bodies won't cope. A large number of comets and the planets may be bombarded too much. Several large moons and tidal forces may make it a volcanic hell.

Without discovering some new physics and adapting that to be a viable propulsion system, it's conceivable that we'll be able to construct transports to get to a star system within that 50-100 light year range.

Unmanned probes, without the need to maintain a gravity, and provide food and air, can be compact and survive rapid acceleration. So, we might manage to get a probe to rapidly reach 10% light speed or so - especially if we go for a fly-by and decide not to have fuel to decelerate at the other end. Which will still take centuries to get there, and will send back minimal information (and, hopefully someone will still be listening).

For a manned colonisation we will need to have a gravity on board, which means acceleration - either acceleration/deceleration of the whole ship which needs engines that can run non-stop for hundreds of years, or have a ship that's spinning which requires a massive diameter (and, a lot of thrust to get it rotating). You'll need to have farms to provide food, and water recycling (with reserves). And, hospitals, schools and everything else to maintain a technologically capable population through probably at least 10 generations. Fuel for the reactors that power everything. Fuel to allow the ship to enter orbit around a candidate planet, and to ferry people down to their new home in shuttle craft that can land and take off anywhere. And, enough surplus contingency that if there's no hope of settling on planets there that the whole thing can change course and head for a second target system where they may make it.

If there's a new physics discovery leading to a radically new technology all bets are off. As it is, we'd probably need to crack fusion to power anything we send interstellar.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I'm pretty sure that it's only my lack of knowledge of the SF genre that stops me knowing which ones have been written already.

It's pretty much the Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

It's a bit like setting up a base at the bottom of the Arctic Ocean to run without outside intervention for ten generations; except that the environment is way more hostile and even in an emergency there will be no help forthcoming.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

Things change relatively slowly, and I think that we'll continue to adapt until the human life that we recognise is no longer sustainable. A mass migration is hard to imagine.

If you like SciFi, which I no longer do, "Dawn in Andromeda" by EC Large tells about a group of humans from Earth emerging on a distant planet in another galaxy. It's a very long time since I read it, but if I remember the story, it doesn't say how they got there, but they had full memory of life on Earth and used it to start again from scratch. As a teenager, I wasn't convinced by it.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Despite often being referred to as a pessimist, I too give my best wishes for future generations to scrape through. Just as our generation has largely scraped through, (so far).

Most of us, most of the time, labour away with a short term view. Traveling further and further afield has always been the over arching ambition of we modern humans. The growing realisation that the Final Frontier cannot, in all physical reality, be crossed or conquered is indeed liable to cause serious head problems for humanity in the millennia which lie ahead. Pressuming that is our species is to, per chance, enjoy such longevity.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

A better sci-fi exploration of this theme is Ursula le Guin's "Paradises Lost" in the collection "The Birthday of the World". This portrays the arrival on a new planet after several generations, and how badly some people cope, and how a significant number of them choose to remain on the ship even though it's not going to be sustainable long term.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
In the Fear of the Lord thread, SusanDoris wrote:

quote:
I think that during the next billion or so years, a human purpose should be to find a way of getting to another Earth-type planet somewhere before the sun does burn out!
One, I'm interested in thoughts such as this. This may mark me as a sociopath, but what generations way into the future do or if they are burnt to a crisp by an expanding sun, does not come into my thinking much. I wish them well, and hope they have a good life, but I do not think of them much (except current generations such as my nieces and friends' children all of who(m?) I wish very well). Are you concerned with those in the 23rd century or beyond? Or is this more a desire for humanity to fill a personal dream?

Secondly, will we get off to another solar system? Would you like to go? Where is the science at? Or do you think we may well evolve to cope with changing conditions in the earth (I exclude the death of the sun here as that seems rather extreme).

See, this seems quite different to me from this:

quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
My Dad didn't give a stuff about Climate Change. He reckoned he'd passed the baton and that was our problem now. I can see where he was coming from.

The burning out of the sun is billions of years away, and setting up human colonies on another solar system will require technology we are a long, long way from acquiring at this point. So I personally don't think there's anything "sociopathic" about saying that's a problem that will need to solve long, long down the road by generations far, far removed from us. Yes, wish them well, and continue to pass on a love for science and exploration, but that's about all we can do to help them out.

But climate change is a far far different matter. We aren't nearly as far off-- at most a generation or two-- from very serious consequences of global warming, as indeed we're already beginning to see those consequences. And it's not beyond our technology-- it's just something we haven't sufficiently committed to (and yes, I'm talking mostly to my fellow Americans and our unfortunate Prez). It's a far far different matter to dismiss a concern billions of years down the road that you can do nothing about, and to refuse to do anything about something that is with your power to impact, and will influence our children and grandchildren.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
In the Fear of the Lord thread, SusanDoris wrote:

quote:
I think that during the next billion or so years, a human purpose should be to find a way of getting to another Earth-type planet somewhere before the sun does burn out!
One, I'm interested in thoughts such as this. This may mark me as a sociopath, but what generations way into the future do or if they are burnt to a crisp by an expanding sun, does not come into my thinking much. I wish them well, and hope they have a good life, but I do not think of them much (except current generations such as my nieces and friends' children all of who(m?) I wish very well). Are you concerned with those in the 23rd century or beyond? Or is this more a desire for humanity to fill a personal dream?

I think I’m very much a person who tries to make the most of every minute and am very much an optimist, but sometimes, I sit and think of my granddaughters and their descendents, each of whom will sit and wonder about the world their grandchildren will be growing up in. Eventually there will come a time when the scientists, having been aware since the 21st century of how the solar system works and how the sun will eventually burn out and, if travel away from this solar system has not become possible, they will know that the human race and all forms of living things are going to become extinct. By that time, it will be too late to think of escape. That will be long before the sun actually explodes because this planet will have become uninhabitable. I mourn for those far distant people who will belong to the unbroken line of evolution since life started on Earth. They will have the same emotions.

quote:
Secondly, will we get off to another solar system? Would you like to go? Where is the science at? Or do you think we may well evolve to cope with changing conditions in the earth (I exclude the death of the sun here as that seems rather extreme).

Our species may well have been lucky enough to have adaptations which enable us to survive a lot, but not the final end. The universe will continue to exist and expand, and the laws of physics, so brilliantly worked out and defined by scientists in only a minute period of time, compared with the billions of years since the start of the univers, will continue to apply. There could well beother intelligent beings on far distant galaxies who will observe this demise and value even more their own lives.

As I have mentioned somewhere, I am reading ‘The solar System’ by Prof Brian cox and it is fascinating, as well as being written in a very accessible way by an enthusiast. It is no good thinking that any planet in this solar Systemwill be a place to move to; without the sun, that is the end of this solar system.

We are just so lucky to live, to have had existence, to have been a very tiny part of the whole thing. I find it endlessly interesting.

I agree with Schroedinger’s Cat about the planning, and withPennyS about the need for better diplomacy than we have at times here on Earth! It seems logical that, like Jane R says, it will not be possible to take the whole of Earth’s population, and I just cannot begin to imagine the way the choice would happen. Future romantics might look to sci-fi for possible answers, but it will be the scientists who will be at the forefront. .The section of the book I am reading at the moment is all about atmospheres, which planets have them, and why, or why not. I have read Alan Cresswell’s post twice already – it would fit right into the book!

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

There are so very many books on this subject that I cannot list them. However, People on SoF would surely enjoy A Canticle for Leibowitz bu Walter M. Miller. It came out in the late 50s or early 60s, won many an award, and is a classic of the genre, a highly Christian and very Catholic novel which is readily available.
Miler's contribution to this discussion is that wherever in the universe we emigrate to, it won't be our native habitat. This planet is where the gravity is 1/0, the air pressure, oxygen content, etc., is exactly suitable. When we go, we will leave as Adam left Eden, and an angel with a fiery sword will block the return. In other words, his sermon was, Don't do it. Don't screw up Eden. Stay, and live in Paradise.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I can see the plot for a good novel in that one - several in fact.

I'm pretty sure that it's only my lack of knowledge of the SF genre that stops me knowing which ones have been written already.

I do remember reading one (novel, or was it a short story?) where the two people who do escape to a new planet, before the earth is destroyed, are called Adam and Eve. Can't remember what it was called now, but sure someone on here will be able to tell us.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Brenda,

Thanks for mentioning 'Canticle for Leibowitz'! I read it years ago, loved it, and had completely forgotten it, except for the last line, which i remember as 'It was a cold winter for the shark.'

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Miler's contribution to this discussion is that wherever in the universe we emigrate to, it won't be our native habitat. This planet is where the gravity is 1/0, the air pressure, oxygen content, etc., is exactly suitable. When we go, we will leave as Adam left Eden, and an angel with a fiery sword will block the return.

In his Mars Trilogy, Kim Stanley Robinson has some of the children (maybe grandchildren - I'm running on memory) return to Earth and struggle with the greater gravity, and appear outlandish by their greater height. Which is a result of nothing more than muscle and bone development, the few generations not being enough for any actual genetic drift to occur.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

In one of the Heinlein novels, the immigrants to Mars developed larger lung capacity, due to the thin atmosphere. (This can be seen in the native populations in the Andes mountains as well, so it's well within human developmental possibility.) This rendered the young women very much more attractive.

One of the larger problems with announcing that the solution to humanity's problems is moving off-planet is that this may sap motivation to fix what we have, or at least to quit trashing it so drastically. If you can always swipe right, you have little inclination to pursue any given relationship.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

It's in the realm of complete fantasy I believe. 10,000 years to reach even the closest star Proxima Centauri. Which is longer than all human history post-agriculture. So continuing the fantasy, in April 2063 the Vulcans pay us a visit. I will miss it unforunately or dementia will mean I don't understand if I live well into the 3 digits. Of course we're all formed of star dust anyway, with a continuing rain from space.

Now if we did get somewhere, we'd definitely kill the inhabitants after having sex with them. We'd enslave any who survive either directly or via taking their resources. Think African, North American and South American peoples. It's what we do. I don't think anything about us today would cause us to behave any differently.

An interesting angle might be what bible verses will we use this time to justify our behaviour this time. Sheep and goats perhaps. Setting teeth on edge or stuff from Joshua is pretty enabling.

[Tangent]
I had wondered about writing a novel some years ago after reading one about successful Aztec resistance to the Spanish. Taking the Mark Twain idea of a yankee in King Arthur's court, but taking a submarine or destroyer and sinking everything that crosses the Atlantic while arming the western hemisphere and helping them to invade Europe. Kill the Kings of England, France and Spain and turn it all into an Iroquois or Cree Empire. All the Europeans can go to the Canaries, Sardinia, Shetland and Channel Islands which are the EuroReservations. Of course 95% of the population dead before that.
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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I don't believe I've seen one like that, although frankly the lack of ironworking and gunpowder would make a west-to-east invasion difficult. British author Alan Smale has written a recent series about the Roman empire expanding into the new world and dealing with the Native American population.
An older series might be the Lord Darcy stories by Randall Garrett. In which Richard Lionheart lives to engender a line of monarchs who rule to this day; a peaceable partnership is set up with the Aztec kingdoms of Central America and many hijinks ensue.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

I think it's more interesting to reset European cultures as second class, denigrated and peripheral. With New World cultures in ascendency. There was an attempt to extinguish in a novel with Chinese and Islam dominating the western hemisphere (if memory serves Days of Rice and Sand) but that is still old world over the new.

The 'new planets' idea seems to me to be a meme. It can draw on one of:
-we go to a new planet with good intentions and Dr Evil manipulates due to profit or megalomania or mommy was mean whilst learning the potty or some such trauma.
-we get there and the diseases kill us or parasitically manipulate us.
-the locals kill us off or enslave us and we are done or some kindly local raises us into ascendency. Sort of a Moses-Jesus thing.
-we repeat everything we did on earth, not exactly, but it rhymes well
-lizard or some other unholy ugly people raise us like cattle, putting us on the menu
-God moved on some time ago, and we recede into legend. Like Midianites, Beothuks, Mohicans or Boetians we are no more.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I don't believe I've seen one like that, although frankly the lack of ironworking and gunpowder would make a west-to-east invasion difficult. British author Alan Smale has written a recent series about the Roman empire expanding into the new world and dealing with the Native American population.

I wonder if you could give some detail about that "dealing" please? Does it mean dealing in the sense of trading and so forth, or the more traditional way in which European settlers pushed the original inhabitants off their land and generally maltreated them?

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

Now if we did get somewhere, we'd definitely kill the inhabitants after having sex with them. We'd enslave any who survive either directly or via taking their resources. Think African, North American and South American peoples. It's what we do. I don't think anything about us today would cause us to behave any differently.

I'm inclined to agree with that bleak assessment of our past record. So there is indeed absolutely no reason to believe our conduct would be any different, even if we were to emerge out of a cryogenically frozen condition onto another territory billions of light year miles away. The seeds of sin would have travelled with us as it were, like fleas on a plague ship 🚀

It could even be argued that, at some point in Cosmic history, we have been banished to this, what could be a matrix type thing, in order to prevent our screwing-up of the entire Id, caboodle, or whatever it is. Some sci-fi novel fodder there, or is coffee time?

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Childish fantasy. We will NEVER do this. We will never crack fusion and we don't have a billion years, we won't approach a million. There is no exploitable hidden physics regardless of dark matter and energy and we will never get in to a conversation with the neighbours. Ever. Never, ever. As for universal social justice ...

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

And of course the sun won't leave the main sequence for 5 ga and can't explode.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

It won't explode in the sense of a supernova, but it will expand mightily into a red giant, whose diameter may or may not encompass the orbit of the earth, but frazzle it up anyway. But there's a lot of other physical things to happen before then.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Billions of years after our species is not even fossils.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
And of course the sun won't leave the main sequence for 5 ga and can't explode.

It will however not stay in the stable state it is at present!

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Oh indeed Martin - it was just for the record.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Billions of years after our species is not even fossils.

I just wonder how those humans still surviving before it all finally and inevitably ends, and they will certainly know it is inevitable, will feel. Perhaps the despair will be alleviated if they are able to know that many had managed to leav to settle elsewhere.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

What humans? I'm surprised at you SusanDoris. Believing such utter unscientific nonsense.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I don't believe I've seen one like that, although frankly the lack of ironworking and gunpowder would make a west-to-east invasion difficult. British author Alan Smale has written a recent series about the Roman empire expanding into the new world and dealing with the Native American population.
I wonder if you could give some detail about that "dealing" please? Does it mean dealing in the sense of trading and so forth, or the more traditional way in which European settlers pushed the original inhabitants off their land and generally maltreated them?

Alas I haven't read the trilogy -- it's still on my TBR pile. All I know of it is what the author described to me. But here's the first volume described on Goodreads. Be sure and scroll down to look over what other readers think of it.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

Now if we did get somewhere, we'd definitely kill the inhabitants after having sex with them. We'd enslave any who survive either directly or via taking their resources. Think African, North American and South American peoples. It's what we do. I don't think anything about us today would cause us to behave any differently.
I'm inclined to agree with that bleak assessment of our past record. So there is indeed absolutely no reason to believe our conduct would be any different, even if we were to emerge out of a cryogenically frozen condition onto another territory billions of light year miles away. The seeds of sin would have travelled with us as it were, like fleas on a plague ship 🚀

It could even be argued that, at some point in Cosmic history, we have been banished to this, what could be a matrix type thing, in order to prevent our screwing-up of the entire Id, caboodle, or whatever it is. Some sci-fi novel fodder there, or is coffee time?

Um, been done. The space trilogy, by C.S. Lewis.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Childish fantasy. We will NEVER do this. We will never crack fusion and we don't have a billion years, we won't approach a million. There is no exploitable hidden physics regardless of dark matter and energy and we will never get in to a conversation with the neighbours. Ever. Never, ever. As for universal social justice ...

So true. Einstein's laws are uncrackable in real life. However, that's the fun of science fiction. Which has developed this to the point that there are a number of accepted 'get out of jail free' cards that are in standard play. Faster-than-light travel, or instantaneous space communication, or matter transporters Star Trek style, are a few. In novels you just accept these, but the author only gets one, perhaps two.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

And we aren't colonizing anywhere in the solar system without a space elevator which we will forever be without.

Fermi's Paradox Mk II applies in that the infinite practically infinite universes teem with sapience eternally constrained by materials science and energetics.

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I can see the plot for a good novel in that one - several in fact.

I'm pretty sure that it's only my lack of knowledge of the SF genre that stops me knowing which ones have been written already.
I do remember reading one (novel, or was it a short story?) where the two people who do escape to a new planet, before the earth is destroyed, are called Adam and Eve. Can't remember what it was called now, but sure someone on here will be able to tell us.

It was an episode of The Twilight Zone. That may have been based on a short story - don't knpw.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

And I regret to inform you that it is such a common trope for the beginning writer that many a set of guidelines specifically warns you not to write it. "... and it turns out they're Adam and Eve" is a cliche in the industry, and so unsaleable.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I just wonder how those humans still surviving before it all finally and inevitably ends, and they will certainly know it is inevitable, will feel. Perhaps the despair will be alleviated if they are able to know that many had managed to leav to settle elsewhere.

I guess we might have to invent a narrative, or fable pertaining to people having reached an alternative destination.
Err... wait a minute, this is all beginning to sound rather familiar.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
I just wonder how those humans still surviving before it all finally and inevitably ends, and they will certainly know it is inevitable, will feel. Perhaps the despair will be alleviated if they are able to know that many had managed to leav to settle elsewhere.
I guess we might have to invent a narrative, or fable pertaining to people having reached an alternative destination.
Err... wait a minute, this is all beginning to sound rather familiar.

A good point at which to close down SofF for today!

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Remember, we are the Golgafrincham B Ark telephone sanitizers.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

And then there are those who think it will be a good thing when humans die out and the planet is returned to the plants and animals, to let nature do its own thing without interference. To that way of thinking, humanity is an errant blip on an otherwise 'perfect' world!

[ 03. September 2017, 17:49: Message edited by: Chorister ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

A nicely bizarre way of thinking, as if the Earth was 'perfect', whatever that could possibly mean in meaningless existence, without man then it's just as perfect with man. Unless perfect means biodiversity unaffected by man. So species collapse due to peak glaciation, let alone snowball earth or the formation of a supercontinent is perfect?

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

I think the most preposterous part of the topic is the notion that the human species will still be around in a billion years. Individual species do not generally last so long. You could say "or some species descended from human", but even that is unlikely.

If we do last so long, we will probably have good enough science and engineering to remake the sun into whatever we like.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

That makes at least three of us.

Posted by Russ (# 120) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Childish fantasy. We will NEVER do this. We will never crack fusion and we don't have a billion years, we won't approach a million. There is no exploitable hidden physics regardless of dark matter and energy and we will never get in to a conversation with the neighbours.
Ever. Never, ever. As for universal social justice ...

A sci-fi future in which the human race is united against the bug-eyed monsters, and working together on the project of interstellar travel has its attractions. An open system in which individuals can achieve on behalf of the species.

If the alternative is a closed system in which the height of our aspirations is a different distribution of finite resources,we war against those of our fellows who hold different ideas of social justice, and achieving anything is at somebody else's expense, then bring on the bug-eyed monsters...

Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

Now if we did get somewhere, we'd definitely kill the inhabitants after having sex with them. We'd enslave any who survive either directly or via taking their resources. Think African, North American and South American peoples. It's what we do. I don't think anything about us today would cause us to behave any differently.
I'm inclined to agree with that bleak assessment of our past record. So there is indeed absolutely no reason to believe our conduct would be any different, even if we were to emerge out of a cryogenically frozen condition onto another territory billions of light year miles away. The seeds of sin would have travelled with us as it were, like fleas on a plague ship 🚀

It could even be argued that, at some point in Cosmic history, we have been banished to this, what could be a matrix type thing, in order to prevent our screwing-up of the entire Id, caboodle, or whatever it is. Some sci-fi novel fodder there, or is coffee time?
Um, been done. The space trilogy, by C.S. Lewis.

He wrote several essays on the topic as well, vehemently agreeing with no prophet's analysis. In "Religion and Rocketry" he writes: "But let us thank God that we are still very far from travel to other worlds..."

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Childish fantasy.

So is dreaming of a New Heaven and a New Earth.

I think we call it hope, and we curse those who take it away.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I once attended a talk by a person into terraforming, who used an overhead projector to explain Drake's Equation. He finished by referring to a woman who had accused his plan for seeding the galaxy with humans of being a form of cosmic rape and revealing his final illustration. Whereas all his equations had been in green, this was in pink, and one which can be seen in places where the imagination of graffiti "artists" cannot get beyond their own anatomy. (He also had a badge saying "size does matter").
It was quite a surprise to see him credited in one of Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars books.
The thought of him going forth to carry on the human enterprise - and I think it would be people like him who would want to - is disturbing. I'd prefer the telephone sanitizers.

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Billions of years after our species is not even fossils.

Now, if you took the Bible seriously, you could become aware of a divine plan that is outside the envelope of time. It does involve, in the first instance, the cleansing and recolonisation of the earth. The Bible calls it the millennium reign of Christ. It occurs after the great tribulation which will climax in the defeat of evil at Armageddon.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

If you took the bible as seriously as I you couldn't be a wooden literalist.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

The Starlost was a sci fi TV show I quite liked at the time (1970s). Pod worlds within a huge space ship whose multigenerational crew had been killed, and whose job it was to oversee the multiple worlds. Some people get out of the Amish world and visit neighbouring pods with different cultures and learn to run the computer.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
A sci-fi future in which the human race is united against the bug-eyed monsters, and working together on the project of interstellar travel has its attractions. An open system in which individuals can achieve on behalf of the species.

If the alternative is a closed system in which the height of our aspirations is a different distribution of finite resources,we war against those of our fellows who hold different ideas of social justice, and achieving anything is at somebody else's expense, then bring on the bug-eyed monsters...

War of the worlds, all those 50's sci-fi offerings, and many which followed tend to share the common theme of hostile aliens either peering in on our squabbles and endeavours, or more likely, having an unquenchable desire to control or eradicate us.
All of this now looks like a classic exercise in the projection of our own fears and ambitions. Not much different from the projections many suspect lie behind religion.

Pondering on the fact that we are, for all intents and purposes, alone and unable to reach another habitation.....
If we are lost in space, then from where have we become lost?
If we have been banished to a Cosmic outpost, then Who did the banishing?

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Billions of years after our species is not even fossils.
Now, if you took the Bible seriously, you could become aware of a divine plan that is outside the envelope of time. It does involve, in the first instance, the cleansing and recolonisation of the earth. The Bible calls it the millennium reign of Christ. It occurs after the great tribulation which will climax in the defeat of evil at Armageddon.

Alternatively, we can take the Bible seriously and realise it says a lot about how we should be living right here, right now ... but, the future (and especially the distant future) is unknown to all but the Father, even the Son not knowing the day or the hour.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Perfect.

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Billions of years after our species is not even fossils.
Now, if you took the Bible seriously, you could become aware of a divine plan that is outside the envelope of time. It does involve, in the first instance, the cleansing and recolonisation of the earth. The Bible calls it the millennium reign of Christ. It occurs after the great tribulation which will climax in the defeat of evil at Armageddon.
Alternatively, we can take the Bible seriously and realise it says a lot about how we should be living right here, right now ... but, the future (and especially the distant future) is unknown to all but the Father, even the Son not knowing the day or the hour.

Alternatively, you could take it seriously and realise the distant future will not exist in temporal terms but that you can learn quite a lot about the destiny of humanity through it. Certainly, God knows everything he has planned but Daniel the prophet had a considerable revelatory window which one can read all about that has zip to do with worrying about the day or the hour. There is nothing remotely Christian about speculation regarding interplanetary colonies and the more technologies we develop, the less realistic such speculation becomes.

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If you took the bible as seriously as I you couldn't be a wooden literalist.

I am not a wooden literalist. You seem to be though..regarding the 'truth tale' in the rocks.
If you take it seriously, perhaps you could tell me what 1cor 15:1-10 is all about.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Alternatively, we can take the Bible seriously and realise it says a lot about how we should be living right here, right now ... but, the future (and especially the distant future) is unknown to all but the Father, even the Son not knowing the day or the hour.

The Trinity is multiple personalities? The Guy sitting on the right of the Father is a different chap? Totally?

Which has me wondering now about The Matrix and a cyberpunk future (a character is named Trinity), where Jesus hacks reality, changing people's coding so they aren't blind any more, cure illnesses by rewriting DNA coding (bacterial, virus or other), take water code it into wine, compress time and space with bullet time respawning after death.

Yes! God programmed it. Moses learned it. Jesus hacked it. The Holy Spirit? I don't know what the HS does here, gives inspiration? Reboots our souls? Is that what communion is? Soul reboot?

Any road: Jesus hacks my reality.

(I wish I could say I was all ginned up to write this, but no fuzzy coding here)

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
You seem to be though..regarding the 'truth tale' in the rocks.

Pfft. Geologists fight over the details of that all the time. It's how academic careers are made.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If you took the bible as seriously as I you couldn't be a wooden literalist.
I am not a wooden literalist. You seem to be though..regarding the 'truth tale' in the rocks.
If you take it seriously, perhaps you could tell me what 1cor 15:1-10 is all about.

Hmmm. So what in Genesis is not literal but metaphor? That's rhetorical by the way. If you want to answer there's a dead horse for that. And what do you want to know about I Corinthians 15:1-10, what don't you understand? I can't possibly see what you can't.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
You seem to be though..regarding the 'truth tale' in the rocks.
Pfft. Geologists fight over the details of that all the time. It's how academic careers are made.

You can make an academic career by standing on the shoulders of those who went before you. It's much easier to make your name by walking all over them. Breaking new ground is very hard - though perhaps geologists are more likely to do that.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Alan--

Nice quip! [Smile]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Jamat

Martin60 is not alone in his puzzlement over the 1 Cor 15 reference. Me too. Will you explain please?

Posted by Jamat (# 11621) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If you took the bible as seriously as I you couldn't be a wooden literalist.
I am not a wooden literalist. You seem to be though..regarding the 'truth tale' in the rocks.
If you take it seriously, perhaps you could tell me what 1cor 15:1-10 is all about.
Hmmm. So what in Genesis is not literal but metaphor? That's rhetorical by the way. If you want to answer there's a dead horse for that. And what do you want to know about I Corinthians 15:1-10, what don't you understand? I can't possibly see what you can't.

Perhaps that's the issue..what you cannot see.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Alternatively, we can take the Bible seriously and realise it says a lot about how we should be living right here, right now ... but, the future (and especially the distant future) is unknown to all but the Father, even the Son not knowing the day or the hour.
The Trinity is multiple personalities? The Guy sitting on the right of the Father is a different chap? Totally?
...

Yes. But one God.

And was Jesus talking about what He as pre-incarnate Son knew and as post-resurrection, returned-to-the-Father Son would know? How would He have known? Or was He talking as the wholly or super-positioned or intersecting incarnate Son?

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If you took the bible as seriously as I you couldn't be a wooden literalist.
I am not a wooden literalist. You seem to be though..regarding the 'truth tale' in the rocks.
If you take it seriously, perhaps you could tell me what 1cor 15:1-10 is all about.
Hmmm. So what in Genesis is not literal but metaphor? That's rhetorical by the way. If you want to answer there's a dead horse for that. And what do you want to know about I Corinthians 15:1-10, what don't you understand? I can't possibly see what you can't.
Perhaps that's the issue..what you cannot see.

Please tell me what you know about I Corinthians 15:1-10 that I don't. Then I'll know.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Jamat--

quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Alternatively, you could take it seriously and realise the distant future will not exist in temporal terms but that you can learn quite a lot about the destiny of humanity through it. Certainly, God knows everything he has planned but Daniel the prophet had a considerable revelatory window which one can read all about that has zip to do with worrying about the day or the hour. There is nothing remotely Christian about speculation regarding interplanetary colonies and the more technologies we develop, the less realistic such speculation becomes.

Um, we're still in the "envelope of time". (Although my clock does have problems... [Biased]

)

We don't know how big that envelope is, or whether it can be stretched if circumstances require it. If salvation, etc. is true, then perhaps God might push/stretch the envelope, so as to give more mercy to more people.

Are you thinking we're in an "any time now" last days mode? I grew up fundamentalist. While I've put most of that in my "don't know" pile, I do still watch for signs, just in case. Sometimes, Christians have embarrassingly decided the 2nd Coming was immediate (whether pre-Tribulation, mid-Trib, or post-Trib, with the Rapture sandwiched in there). People have often thought they were at the end, and they weren't. Sometimes, they actually put on robes and went to wait. (No offense to anyone who's in the lineage of that group.) People get hurt, and there's a big mess.

For all we know, Jesus won't come back for thousands of years. So there may well be time for us to go toodling around in space, with a lot of cool, new toys. And Christian writers (and others) have played with those possibilities.

So...maybe a good approach is to work on living our lives the way Jesus taught. And maybe keep an eye out for signs, *without getting too freaked out about them*.

But if we're always on edge that "Jesus is coming soon, and we'll finally get out of here!", we miss a lot of good life, and are too distracted to do good in the world.

And if life exists elsewhere, it's just more stuff God made.

[ 06. September 2017, 09:24: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

There's no if. It's no less certain than our existence. As it is certain that there will be no new toys. Anywhere.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

Or maybe, just maybe, the Scriptures will be true.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Which? There are no new toys anywhere in the material cosmos. All things will be sublimed new. Those are true scripture.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Martin--

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There's no if. It's no less certain than our existence. As it is certain that there will be no new toys. Anywhere.

Um...??? Jamat had talked about no new tech, and AIUI that it would be wrong to pursue it.

All I meant was that Jesus might wait thousands of years to return, so there might be plenty of time for us to explore space, and to make lots of new tech to help us do it.

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

I know GK. We can't. Just better probes within the solar system and better telescopes. No sci-fi nonsense like fusion drives, let alone M-AM and Dr Who.

[ 06. September 2017, 11:01: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

Sorry, beg her pardon, Doctor Who.

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