Thread: Flags and national anthems Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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Egypt is threatening to imprison people who disrespect the national flag and has a habit of arresting people who wave the wrong flag.
So here's the challenge for this thread: without mentioning the USA or Trump what do you think is the morality of "respecting the flag", should a national anthem be given special protection and what is legitimate protest in terms of flags and anthems?
Are there any good reasons for protection of these symbols or is it simply about different cultural norms and attitudes?
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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Global trend lines (zeitgeist) at work. Something like this?
Tribalism -- nationalism --internationalism --counter-nationalism -- tribalism.
Not a straight line, of course, nor consistent in all parts of the world. But I guess there are always visceral human tendencies at work. Charity begins at home. Blood is thicker than water. Distrust of those who are different. And these trends can be used, at a national level, by governments of all types. So flags become a symbol to be exploited in favour of "us" rather than "them".
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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I think the important thing that politicians should realise (but often don't) is that it is possible to make a protest against the policies, programmes or injustices of a country while still retaining huge respect and love for that country. In fact such people would say that they were honouring, not dishonouring, the flag by their protest.
Having said that, some nations seem to venerate per setheir national symbols more than others, especially if there are few other common symbols of their identity.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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Love of country doesn't have to be connected to xenophobia, and not all patriots are scoundrels. But scoundrels certainly exploit love of country, and may in the process encourage xenophobic instincts where they exist.
Posted by Matrix (# 3452) on
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I think Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego had it about right.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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If you are offended when someone sits down for the anthem and doesn't sing it you need to look at what your problem is imo.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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A Guardian comment -
quote:
There's something very telling about the fact that Trump had very little to say about American Nazis marching and waving Nazi flags in Charlottesville, but suddenly has a whole lot to say about flags when a couple of football players simply want to highlight racism.
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Are there any good reasons for protection of these symbols or is it simply about different cultural norms and attitudes?
I once saw two grown (albeit quite drunk) men have a serious and violent go at each other over the honor of the gold Chevrolet bow-tie versus the blue Ford oval...absolute insanity.
To me the flag thing is something like that...
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
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The only good reason I can think of is that it ... nope, I can't think of a good reason.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Are there any good reasons for protection of these symbols or is it simply about different cultural norms and attitudes?
I once saw two grown (albeit quite drunk) men have a serious and violent go at each other over the honor of the gold Chevrolet bow-tie versus the blue Ford oval...absolute insanity.
To me the flag thing is something like that...
lol It's Ford v Holden in this country...
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
without mentioning the USA or Trump
Why?
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
without mentioning the USA or Trump
Why?
Well, I thought it had potential for becoming a Pond War. And there are other threads to rage against the WH.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
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Love of one's country (the motherland, the fatherland, whatever you want to call it) and the noble sentiments it stands for is an honorable thing to do.
That does not mean that the "noble sentiments it stands for" are all noble, or all worthy of honor, in everyone's eyes. Some (one could say all) need examination; some could perhaps stand correction.
Refusing to respect the flag is tantamount to giving up on one's country, turning one's back on it, saying, "This is not my country."
However, showing respect for the flag (and, by extension, the country) in a way different from how it is shown by those with whose opinions you disagree, those whose opinions are, in your judgment, not worthy of respect and cry out for examination, is the complete opposite of refusal to respect.
Since time immemorial, bending the knee has been interpreted as a sign of greatest respect and admiration -- else what was St. Paul up to in Philippians 2:10?
Indeed, it could be argued (and I do argue) that to bend the knee to the flag and the National Anthem shows greater respect and greater love for one's country than that shown by those who stand robot-like for them without thought as to what they are standing for and whether or not those tenets are noble or honorable.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Refusing to respect the flag is tantamount to giving up on one's country, turning one's back on it, saying, "This is not my country."
This must be a pond difference, because the only thing I can think to say in response is "no it bloody isn't".
I don't even have any reasons why it isn't. The union flag just doesn't hold that sort of position in our culture. And even if it ever did, this moment was when it ended.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Love of one's country (the motherland, the fatherland, whatever you want to call it) and the noble sentiments it stands for is an honorable thing to do.
That does not mean that the "noble sentiments it stands for" are all noble, or all worthy of honor, in everyone's eyes. Some (one could say all) need examination; some could perhaps stand correction.
Refusing to respect the flag is tantamount to giving up on one's country, turning one's back on it, saying, "This is not my country."
However, showing respect for the flag (and, by extension, the country) in a way different from how it is shown by those with whose opinions you disagree, those whose opinions are, in your judgment, not worthy of respect and cry out for examination, is the complete opposite of refusal to respect.
Since time immemorial, bending the knee has been interpreted as a sign of greatest respect and admiration -- else what was St. Paul up to in Philippians 2:10?
Indeed, it could be argued (and I do argue) that to bend the knee to the flag and the National Anthem shows greater respect and greater love for one's country than that shown by those who stand robot-like for them without thought as to what they are standing for and whether or not those tenets are noble or honorable.
I get that point of view. There are many in Australia who share it, including me. But I don't think it's a
good reason. I think it's a traditional reason. I think people who hold this view ought to be very leery of those who wear the flag as a cape, or put the image of a flag on places where it shouldn't be - like a hat, or a t-shirt, or on a pair of trousers, shorts or underwear. Honestly, I'd say wearing an image of the flag should be right out. People who drape a flag around themselves should be executed on sight in a very painful manner.
Going a bit silly now. Refuse to edit. Stopping typing instead.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
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Marvin, I have watched Midsummer Murders on a number of occasions and I think you are understating the level of flag-waving nationalism in the United Kingdom. Plus: Brexit, Boris Johnstone, Benny Hill.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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Simntoad: I'm not sure. I suspect that there's quite often a bit of "tongue in cheek" as well as pride when it comes to waving the Union flag, although this will vary across Britain.
I also suspect that there's a slightly different between the use of the Welsh and Scottish flags, the Ulster flag, and the England one.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Marvin, I have watched Midsummer Murders on a number of occasions and I think you are understating the level of flag-waving nationalism in the United Kingdom. Plus: Brexit, Boris Johnstone, Benny Hill.
Sure, people wave the flag a lot at nationalistic gatherings. But I strongly doubt that any of them would be at all bothered by someone showing disrespect for it. In US terms (apparently), people do it all the time.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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Considering the Caribbean has been devastated along with the Keys and a whole state in an unnamed country; considering another city in the same country is still trying to recover from a storm; considering Mexico is still digging out from an Earthquake; considering the threat of war is increasing in the Pacific--the list can go on. I could care less that people are taking a knee or staying in the tunnel until after the National Anthem is played and the flag leaves the field.
BTW in the unnamed country, before 2009 football teams would stay off the field until after the anthem had been sung and the flag left the field. It changed in 2009 when the Department of Defense offered to pay several million dollars to the NFL if the players came out and stood for the anthem.
Technically, there is no official rule in the NFL for players to respect the flag.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Marvin, I have watched Midsummer Murders on a number of occasions and I think you are understating the level of flag-waving nationalism in the United Kingdom. Plus: Brexit, Boris Johnstone, Benny Hill.
I think Brits are actually quite cagey about flags and flag-waving - the general attitude seems to be that there is a "time and a place" for waving a flag (such as during a sports tournament or during a visit from the Queen) but gratuitous use of flags at other times is frowned upon.
Partly I think this is because there are uncomfortable associations with British flags and various far-right and fascist organisations (which is odd, when you think about it) and partly I think because there is an inbuilt anti-establishment feeling in many communities.
"We'll support the national sports teams if we damn well want to, but nobody tells me to salute a flag" seems like quite a common feeling.
Partly I think it is also because there are many communities for whom the British flag never really had any strong attachment - because it represented a hated establishment - and partly I think the nationalism many young people instinctively felt before WW1 was severely dented by that war.
I think there is a sense of national pride, but I don't think Brits generally have as much invested in the flag itself as others seem to.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Sure, people wave the flag a lot at nationalistic gatherings. But I strongly doubt that any of them would be at all bothered by someone showing disrespect for it. In US terms (apparently), people do it all the time.
The flag's a symbol, not a magic blanket.
Consider this: When the gospel book leaves the sanctuary in procession so that the gospel can be proclaimed in the middle of our Sunday service, we stand, we face the book, we sing, and we show reverence to the symbol. But the reverence is for the thing that is symbolized, not because it's a magic book.
I have several copies of that same text on bookshelves in my house; I don't bow at my bookshelves or walk around the house facing them.
So flag clothes, flag underwear, flag napkins and carrier bags, flag condoms are all fine - no disrespect is intended. Someone purposely desecrating the flag and intending to be offensive is different. And yes, I find the use of the union flag by Nazis and racists to be offensive, but it's a small sin alongside the offense caused by their racist Nazi opinions.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
BTW in the unnamed country, before 2009 football teams would stay off the field until after the anthem had been sung and the flag left the field. It changed in 2009 when the Department of Defense offered to pay several million dollars to the NFL if the players came out and stood for the anthem.
Technically, there is no official rule in the NFL for players to respect the flag.
I used to regularly attend Ice Hockey games - a fairly minor sport in the UK with crowds of a about 5 thousand. During the National Anthem, probably 30% didn't stand and maybe 50% didn't sing.
I've never been to a big Premiership football match so I've no idea whether they'd even have the national anthem played there.
I suspect that people who may well sing enthusiastically the national anthem at an International Rugby Union or Football match wouldn't sing at a minor sports event. Time-and-place thing again; many Brits don't really see the need to respect the symbols of Britishness at a sport nobody much else is interested in and which is largely played by players from outside of the UK.
When I was young I used to watch a lot of club Rugby Union and I don't remember them playing the national anthem at all.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
So flag clothes, flag underwear, flag napkins and carrier bags, flag condoms are all fine - no disrespect is intended. Someone purposely desecrating the flag and intending to be offensive is different. And yes, I find the use of the union flag by Nazis and racists to be offensive, but it's a small sin alongside the offense caused by their racist Nazi opinions.
That's interesting and sparked a thought I hadn't considered before: some countries revere their flag in a way that many Brits revere the red poppy as a symbol.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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Dissent is a form of love for one's country - otherwise you wouldn't bother.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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To be honest I see no need to love my country. My neighbour, yes. Country? Why?
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Dissent is a form of love for one's country - otherwise you wouldn't bother.
Not necessarily. Your country has the power to screw you over in all kinds of ways, because you live in it. Dissent doesn't have to mean that you love your country - just that you want it to stop harming you or people like you. Or people that you like.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've never been to a big Premiership football match so I've no idea whether they'd even have the national anthem played there.
Nope. The only non-international football matches the anthem is sung before are the Cup Finals. Most other sports don't sing it before any non-international matches at all, to the best of my knowledge.
Then again, we don't do pledges of allegiance before school either. And even if we did, plenty of people wouldn't.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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We used to have the National Anthem (or some of it) at the end of cinema shows. People raced for the exit as the credits rolled so they could avoid it (and get to the front of the bus queue). Generally those who remained, whether at their seats or in the aisles, did stand more-or-less respectfully.
And the BBC used to play the Anthem before closing down for the night.
It's still plated at the Last Night of the Proms and everyone joins in - verse 2, too!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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I used to stay seated in the cinema - if you left early, you missed the credits, which can be interesting.
My dad used to stand to attention in the living room at the end of the evening's telly.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I think the important thing that politicians should realise (but often don't) is that it is possible to make a protest against the policies, programmes or injustices of a country while still retaining huge respect and love for that country.
They do realise this when it is protesting causes they support.
I protest with honour for my beloved country
You protest in disrespect to our country
They protest with hate to the country which supports them.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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When I was in the military and would go to cinema on base, the national anthem would play at the beginning of the show(s). Everyone, including spouses and children, would jump to attention until after it was finished.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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A Patriotism for Today: Love of Country in Dialogue with the Witness of Dietrich Bonhoeffer — Keith Clements. shows how dissent can by a form of loyalty to and love of country
[ 26. September 2017, 16:47: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
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If a certain country, that remains unnamed, would play a professional from across the border, usually the national anthem of the visiting team will be played first, followed by the national anthem of the host team. Or is it visa versa?
Of course, I am only talking about North America.
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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I find it somewhat hard to comprehend that kneeling in front of a flag is considered more disrespectful than flying the flag of an actual separatist movement that triggered a civil war and killed hundreds of thousands.
Posted by Polly Plummer (# 13354) on
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Leo, my Dad also stood to attention while the national anthem was played at close of play on the TV. We were never quite sure whether he had his tongue in his cheek.
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Are there any good reasons for protection of these symbols
Well, there is a long-established offence of behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace, and I imagine that if I took a stack of Union Jacks to certain neighbourhoods in Belfast and set fire to them - or the Irish tricolour in certain other neighbourhoods likewise - then I would be liable to have my collar felt.
I appreciate that is some distance from the scenarios envisaged in this thread though.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I find it somewhat hard to comprehend that kneeling in front of a flag is considered more disrespectful than flying the flag of an actual separatist movement that triggered a civil war and killed hundreds of thousands.
It's why they're doing it that's causing the real offence. See, the people waving separatist flags are doing so because they don't like black people, but the people kneeling during the anthem are doing it because they do like black people.
Clearly, one of those stances is beyond the pale for ol' Littlefingers and his supporters.
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
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.. and of course there are similar situations that are much closer in comparison:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/09/24/colin-kaepernick-vs-tim-tebow-a-tale-of-two-christianities-on -its-knees/
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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I used to be fairly patriotic in a non-demonstrative way, but the realisation on the morning of 24th June 2016 that the country I thought I belonged to no longer existed, has thrown that particular switch into the OFF position.
I don't go much for gestures. I wouldn't burn a flag. I would still stand for the national anthem in personal respect for Her Majesty. But it would make me angry and rather disgusted now to see displays of patriotism like the Last Night of the Proms - so I avoid that sort of thing now.
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
But it would make me angry and rather disgusted now to see displays of patriotism like the Last Night of the Proms - so I avoid that sort of thing now.
I believe that this year's Last Night of the Proms had many EU flags in evidence; to the expressed disgust of Nigel Farage who thought expressions of European cultural identity had no place in a festival with many international orchestras playing music chiefly by Germans and Austrians.
[ 26. September 2017, 21:20: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
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Last Night of the Proms looks brilliant from the Southern Hemisphere. My wife likes to watch it and she is a filthy leftie of the worst sort.
I want to repeat over and over again that wearing the flag or a representation of it, but especially the flag itself, is a horrible thing to do, like burning it or wiping your nose on an image of it. The main reason I want to do this is to stick it up the ultra-nationalists and the boorish flag-as-cape crowd who went around beating up anyone brown one hot and horrible afternoon at Cronulla. Please join me in expressing this opinion repeatedly so that it may catch hold in a decade or so.
If any Australians want to help me find a way to stop the Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi chant please join me in the Alan Border Walks On Water facebook group. He does. I've seen it.
Finally, at AFL games they only play the national anthem during finals matches, and many a time have I stood in the loungeroom for the national anthem at the start of the Grand Final no matter how pissed and stoned I may have been by 2:30 in the afternoon. I have also sung the first line of the anthem very loudly and then just mumbled and hummed for the rest of the number.
[ 26. September 2017, 23:48: Message edited by: simontoad ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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I'm not sure any country has an idolatry of their flag that matches that in the US. How many other nations' national anthems are love songs to their flag? Or make their schoolchildren recite a quasi-religious bit of brainwashing every day that expresses loyalty to a piece of cloth? Requires that the flag-obsequious national anthem be played before any sporting event that has more spectators than athletes? There's a very unhealthy flag worship in this country.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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{tangent}
leo--
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I used to stay seated in the cinema - if you left early, you missed the credits, which can be interesting.
Yes. Sometimes, there are even additional scenes with new plot points. I stay 'til the film is *completely* over.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
without mentioning the USA or Trump
Why?
Well, I thought it had potential for becoming a Pond War.
Yup.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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I must admit to feeling perturbed when some people in Australia decided to publicly burn the flag as some sort of racial protest. That seems more disrespectful than not standing during the anthem.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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bib--
Burning the American flag is very controversial, too. Court cases, etc. I'm not sure of the current status, but I think the Supremes said it's legal to burn it.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure any country has an idolatry of their flag that matches that in the US. How many other nations' national anthems are love songs to their flag? Or make their schoolchildren recite a quasi-religious bit of brainwashing every day that expresses loyalty to a piece of cloth? Requires that the flag-obsequious national anthem be played before any sporting event that has more spectators than athletes? There's a very unhealthy flag worship in this country.
You're probably right about the position of the US in relation to the flag. It can't be purely because it's a republic as the veneration given in the US is not shown in any other republic of which I'm aware.
That said, when I started school we would recite each morning: "I honour my God, I serve my King, I salute my flag", at which we would salute. A suitable change in 1952 of course.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
bib--
Burning the American flag is very controversial, too. Court cases, etc. I'm not sure of the current status, but I think the Supremes said it's legal to burn it.
It has to be legal to burn it -- I believe it's considered the only proper method of disposal. So the VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars) can do so, but BLM supporters can't?
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
So the VFW (Veterans of Foreign Wars) can do so, but BLM supporters can't?
SCOTUS has quite explicitly protected flag burning as a form of free speech. (Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989)) for anyone that wants the details.
(It is quite obvious, however, that burning a flag to dispose of it when it reaches the end of its useful life is not the same act as burning a flag as a protest.)
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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Pigwidgeon--
When it's burned as appropriate disposal, that's out of respect. When it's burned in protest, it's deemed as (and likely is) disrespect.
Here's the US part of the Wikipedia "Flag desecration" article. The page also has info on many other countries' flag laws and traditions. Given the thread topic, might be worth comparing.
There's also a "Flag Protocol" article, though less developed.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That said, when I started school we would recite each morning: "I honour my God, I serve my King, I salute my flag", at which we would salute. A suitable change in 1952 of course.
At least that gives you the proper relationship between the three. And makes no false claims about liberty and justice being for "all."
Also it occurs to me that it's much healthier to salute a flag than to pledge loyalty to it. If Congress passes an act tomorrow to use a different flag as our national ensign, would the allegiance I pledged yesterday be a lie? The whole concept is stupid.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Last Night of the Proms looks brilliant from the Southern Hemisphere. My wife likes to watch it and she is a filthy leftie of the worst sort.
"Land of Hope and Glory" and "Rule Britannia"? Sounds pretty un-Australian to me. Good, very singable, melodies, silly words?
There's a famous story (which I heard Jack Fingleton tell) of a clash between Australian patriotism and British patriotism at a reception in Australia for the visiting English cricket team. Both had "had a few".
quote:
High ranking Australian politician: Australia is the finest country in the world and Australians are the finest people in the world.
England fast bowler Fred Trueman: Yeah, well your ancestors were sent here by the finest magistrates in England
Fred got left out of the next two tours! Fingleton thought the exchange was hilarious, and the ban was completely over the top.
Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on
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Slight tangent....but only slightly....
When one of the offspring got married a few years back it was an international-ish wedding. And given the very real problem with flags that they had encountered, the couple asked if the flags based in the church could be removed for the duration of the ceremony And explained why. The church happily agreed and the flags were reinstated after the event.
As for the national anthem, my peace loving and liberal spouse would walk out of church if we even sang the national anthem. He usually excuses himself from church attendance on Remembrance Sunday in order to avoid a scene.
For lots of people, flags and the national anthem are either a sign of appropriate pride or of honouring something. But sometimes, flags and our national anthems are just plain divisive.
I guess this issue raises lots of issues though.....and i am enjoying reading through the thread. Thank you all!
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
That said, when I started school we would recite each morning: "I honour my God, I serve my King, I salute my flag", at which we would salute. A suitable change in 1952 of course.
At least that gives you the proper relationship between the three. And makes no false claims about liberty and justice being for "all."
Also it occurs to me that it's much healthier to salute a flag than to pledge loyalty to it. If Congress passes an act tomorrow to use a different flag as our national ensign, would the allegiance I pledged yesterday be a lie? The whole concept is stupid.
That reminds me of a conversation I had with a parishioner of a former parish of mine, he objected to the City removing the Union Jack from civic property on the grounds that our World War I and World War II veterans did not fight and die under the Maple Leaf (It only became Canada's national flag in 1965) but under the Union Jack of the UK.
I was too kind of the time to tell him that of all the issues in the world from poverty to climate change, to etc, that it seems to be trivial to be complaining to the City about what flag it should fly under.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
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Anglican Brat wrote:
quote:
That reminds me of a conversation I had with a parishioner of a former parish of mine, he objected to the City removing the Union Jack from civic property on the grounds that our World War I and World War II veterans did not fight and die under the Maple Leaf (It only became Canada's national flag in 1965) but under the Union Jack of the UK.
Was it this flag or this flag that was being taken down?
Because if it was the first one(aka the Union Jack), I don't think the World War II troops, at least, were fighting under that flag anyway, were they?
[ 27. September 2017, 13:55: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Anglican Brat wrote:
quote:
That reminds me of a conversation I had with a parishioner of a former parish of mine, he objected to the City removing the Union Jack from civic property on the grounds that our World War I and World War II veterans did not fight and die under the Maple Leaf (It only became Canada's national flag in 1965) but under the Union Jack of the UK.
Was it this flag or this flag that was being taken down?
Because if it was the first one(aka the Union Jack), I don't think the World War II troops, at least, were fighting under that flag anyway, were they?
The first one, but good point on your explanation that our Canadian troops were technically not flying under the Union Jack in the Wars.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
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Reaching back into the recesses of my former bureaucratic life, where the flag and symbols people had their cubicles down the hallway, and where a former officer (known as the vexillology vixen for reasons I will not explore nor discuss) told me that much of the 1965 flag fury -- of which I was just old enough to hear the discussions at my elementary school--- was under the mistaken impression that the Red Ensign was the flag under which Canadian forces fought in WWII. The Red Ensign had a presence at many military installations as it was flown over federal government buildings, but the flag used by the Canadian military itself was the Union Jack, and Anglican_brat's grumpy parishioner was correct. By that point in military history, flags were rarely flown at the front, someone having figured out that they were a good target for the other side's artillery.
The 1960s flag debated resulted in a situation where flag-worshippers were focussed on the Red Ensign, after 1965 no longer in any way the country's flag. Their pain was assuaged by the new provincial flags of Ontario and Manitoba, which were red ensigns with the provincial shields in the fly and so provincial flags were often flown in cottage country. During the Harper years, the Red Ensign got a minor and contextual presence back in this interesting if convoluted historical flags document.
Partly because Canada never had an official national flag for the first century of its existence and partly because oaths of allegiance were directed toward an individual (king or queen du jour), we never developed the same flagocentricity as our southern neighbour. However, the cultural influence from south of the border was strong, and my colleagues in the Flag and Arms Cubicle Corridor Complex finally succumbed in the 1980s to sacks of letters (well, there was a box) asking for copies of our flag protocol, and issued a guideline. I have a vague memory that Bill Domm, once MP for Peterborough, wanted to introduce a flag respect bill, and this might have had something to do with its birth, but I would need to make a telephone call to verify this and today I will be too preoccupied with order a new kitchen window to be installed.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
Thanks for the correction on the military, Augustine.
quote:
Partly because Canada never had an official national flag for the first century of its existence and partly because oaths of allegiance were directed toward an individual (king or queen du jour), we never developed the same flagocentricity as our southern neighbour. However, the cultural influence from south of the border was strong, and my colleagues in the Flag and Arms Cubicle Corridor Complex finally succumbed in the 1980s to sacks of letters (well, there was a box) asking for copies of our flag protocol, and issued a guideline. I have a vague memory that Bill Domm, once MP for Peterborough, wanted to introduce a flag respect bill, and this might have had something to do with its birth, but I would need to make a telephone call to verify this and today I will be too preoccupied with order a new kitchen window to be installed.
I remember when Sheila Copps was Minister Of Canadian Heritage, she was really big on handing out flags, and at one point even complained that her own government needed to hand out more.
Funny that such an ardent Canadian nationalist thought that importing US-style flag-fetishism was a good way to build national identity. Guess maybe she thought she'd beat Uncle Sam at his own game.
[ 28. September 2017, 15:04: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
:
Jehovah Witness refuse to stand or acknowledge any national flag. We had a girl in our elementary (primary) class who was JW. She would just sit at her desk when we did the Pledge of Allegiance. Looking back at it, she was probably right. Christians shouldn't have to make any pledges other than to their God.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
The Conservative Political Action Conference seems to like waving any flags, as long as they’re red, white, and blue.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
Re Canadian flags. I tend to see the maple leaf when travelling. At least some of the people sporting them are Canadian. Generally, it's more fun to share a table with the Australians. Who also run all the ski areas in western Canada, as lifties and instructors.
In my youth the stubby beer bottle seemed to be the national symbol.
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
:
Symbolic theory could help illustrate this matter.
It may seem obvious, but no object has any meaning absent human construction. In a way, our ability to create symbolic meaning is a pale reflection of God in creation. We cannot create anything in the sense that God does, but we can "create" meaning in imposing on objects, pictures, and images ideas and values.
So saluting the flag or standing for the anthem does not make sense unless it is understood that what one is doing is professing the values or ideas that the flag or anthem stands for. One value that American ideology of freedom ascribes to is freedom of speech and expression, which goes back to the Revolution, when before colonists took up arms against Britain, they were already waging a free war of ideas in discourse.
Kneeling during the national anthem, whether or not one perceives it as disrespectful or respectful, is really not the issue. It is an act of expression and as such, to me, it reflects the values of American ideology which at least in its proclamation, holds free thought and expression in high esteem.
Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on
:
The bemused on this side of the pond need to remember that to Americans the flag is the focus of national identity just as 'the Crown' is to subjects of Her Majesty. (I realise that this remark will enrage British republicans - but that is a topic for another thread.)
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
Eirenist--
Thank you! I'd been thinking of saying that, but was afraid of the possible reaction.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
I don't see why there should be a reaction, as it's clearly true. However I would still judge that British attitudes towards the Crown - except among a small minority of extreme Royalist - are less forceful and quite often more ironic and informal than the American respect or even veneration (or is that too strong a word?) for their flag.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Last Night of the Proms looks brilliant from the Southern Hemisphere. My wife likes to watch it and she is a filthy leftie of the worst sort.
"Land of Hope and Glory" and "Rule Britannia"? Sounds pretty un-Australian to me. Good, very singable, melodies, silly words?
There's a famous story (which I heard Jack Fingleton tell) of a clash between Australian patriotism and British patriotism at a reception in Australia for the visiting English cricket team. Both had "had a few".
quote:
High ranking Australian politician: Australia is the finest country in the world and Australians are the finest people in the world.
England fast bowler Fred Trueman: Yeah, well your ancestors were sent here by the finest magistrates in England
Fred got left out of the next two tours! Fingleton thought the exchange was hilarious, and the ban was completely over the top.
Was Freddie Trueman of the wrong social class to play test cricket? I'm just wondering whether the board came down hard on him because he was an uppity prole (confirmed). I have a recollection that Trueman ended up emigrating to Australia and had a long and distinguished career as a commentator. I could google, but I prefer to speculate ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Certainly my memory of him is extremely positive. I've just googled him, and he must have been the guest commentator on the ABC all the time in Australian summers. He never emigrated. I'm misting up with nostalgia now...
I reckon my wife likes the tunes and the Great British Lunacy of the Last Night of the Proms. We went to a touring show earlier this year and Blake's Jerusalem was brilliant. I'm pretty sure we were one of very few couples under 60. For the flag waving bit we got a flag with the Union Jack on one side and the Australian flag on the other. Naturally I used it to taunt my republican friends, especially my Irish mate.
For the Americans, here is a song about
a Grand Old Flag
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
One more thing about the American flag.
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Moo
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The bemused on this side of the pond need to remember that to Americans the flag is the focus of national identity just as 'the Crown' is to subjects of Her Majesty. (I realise that this remark will enrage British republicans - but that is a topic for another thread.)
We are subjects of HM but you could most certainly not call her the focus of national identity - nor is our flag although the new flag campaign seems to have few supporters. The flag's not in relation to republics generally AFAIK, so why in the US?
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One more thing about the American flag.
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Moo
I have officiated at a couple of military funerals and it is indeed moving. But the really interesting thing relevant to this thread is that when the color guard presents the folded glad to the next of kin they
Kneel
It is a symbol of mourning, humility-- and respect.
When Colin K began his protests he sat during the anthem. A veteran came to him and shared why he was offended by the actions. And Colin listened. A committed Christian, he and the veteran came upon the notion of kneeling as a way of demonstratting mourning and grief re Americas "original sin" of racism while still conveying deep respect
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Moo: quote:
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
This happens at military funerals in Britain, too.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One more thing about the American flag.
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Moo
I don't know if it's simply a matter of seeing the ritual, but rather, being inculcated in a military culture that attaches a substantial degree of reverence to it.
From years of reading the Ship, I'd say there is probably a certain venn overlap between people who are moved by the words and imagery of Christianity, and people who(for example) have laughed at the movie Life Of Brian. People falling in this category likely think that the emotions they feel for something in one context don't necessarily get transferred over into another one, eg. Someone might be moved at seeing his mother's favorite crucifix resting atop her coffin at the funeral, but if Marilyn Manson wants to wave a bloody crucifix around on stage to thrill the kids, well, it's a sin against good taste, but that's about it.
Now yes, many(possibly even most) people will see any trivialization or degradation of a sacred item as an affront to their memory of more traditional uses of the item. But again, I think that's because of how they've been taught to regard it.
TL/DR: People who have seen the flag used in military funerals are offended by its degradation because they're been taught to regard profanation of the flag as a terrible thing, not simply because the ceremony itself is moving.
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
Cross-posted with Jane...
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Moo: quote:
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
This happens at military funerals in Britain, too.
Which I think backs up my point that it's the overarching ideological system, not the ceremony, that provokes such an emotional investment in the flag. The UK, as far as I know, doesn't have anywhere near the same cult of the Union Jack that the US has for Old Glory.
Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on
:
Gee D, I did not say the Queen is the symbol of national identity on this side of the pond (are you on the same side as us, in fact?), I deliberately said 'the Crown'. My country is the United Kingdom, after all; the Commonwealth is part of The Commonwealth, after all, of which the Queen is the head (for the time being). Perhaps you could tell us what is your symbol of national identity.
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on
:
Moo, I saw the flag ceremony at my father's funeral. It was beautiful; I cried. This however does not impact my reactions to any other use of the flag.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
One more thing about the American flag.
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Moo
Moo, you're falling into the trap of thinking that other people are the same as you, and will react the way you react to a given thing.
It's not the case. You do not know what effect events have on another person, because you know so little about them. Even people I know well constantly surprise me by not doing what I expect.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The bemused on this side of the pond need to remember that to Americans the flag is the focus of national identity just as 'the Crown' is to subjects of Her Majesty. (I realise that this remark will enrage British republicans - but that is a topic for another thread.)
I'm not sure the phrase "focus of national identity" has much meaning to me, whether Brenda or anything else. I just don't think that way. This is probably why I don't get all this huffing and puffing about flags. They're just ways to know who's from which country at Eurovision to me.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
I think Flanders and Swann's "Song of Patriotic Prejudice" must be required listening for this thread. To me, its gentle irony does a rather good job at capturing an English identity.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Yes, and the Broadway 1967 version ('always remember - if it hadn't been for the English, you'd all be Spanish') went down rather well...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8&list=PLN4gIEo2BjC1V9mVKqZ7XX4GQ_JPoF7Y-
IJ
Posted by Ohher (# 18607) on
:
I confess to having very mixed feelings about the flag of my country, despite having been subjected to the usual brainwashings of daily pledge-recitation through much of my early schooling. For one thing, it's horribly gaudy. As an object of veneration, it seems to stand for some ideals I value strongly, but it also stands for some actions, attitudes, and policies with which I'm in deep disagreement.
Such patriotism as I feel is probably more aroused by the songs 'America the Beautiful' or 'My Country, 'tis of Thee' than by our near-unsingable national anthem, and I'm moved more by the ideals expressed in certain famous speeches & documents (The Gettysburg Address, I Have a Dream, and the Declaration of Independence) than anything else.
This week I've been re-living memories of the Viet Nam War because of Public Television's airing of Ken Burns' documentary. I was emergine from childhood into adolescence into adulthood during that period. I'm realizing, as I read through this thread, how profoundly that experience altered my attitude toward my government, and also to my country and fellow citizens.
I protested the war, but I also objected to the way fellow citizens treated returning soldiers. Sure, there were soldiers who volunteered and believed they were on the side of the angels. But there were many others who went because they were drafted, and no more supported the war than I did.
Currently, I'm wondering what patriotism I can possibly muster toward a country which, ethically speaking, seems to be bent on turning itself into a cesspool.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Symbolic theory could help illustrate this matter.
Is that anything like semiotics?
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
At a military funeral the coffin has a flag draped over it. Before the interment, the flag is carefully folded and given to a family member.
If you have seen this, you will react more strongly to people walking over the flag or spitting on it.
Should such strong emotions affect (or effect) the law? Should they affect hiring and firing decisions?
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Should such strong emotions affect (or effect) the law? Should they affect hiring and firing decisions?
No.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
I just want to let everyone know that I took the knee in the lounge-room at work when the National Anthem was sung at the beginning of today's Grand Final. It was quite a struggle to get up.
On the subject of Australia's national symbol, I reckon it is the flag, but it could also be a sprig of wattle or a kangaroo. Lots of people would like to see the flag changed, and for Australia to become a Republic, so there isn't consensus around our national symbols as there was say in the 1950's.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
:
NZ spent in the region of $NZ 27 million with 2 referenda in 2015 and 16 to decide whether or not to change our flag. First question was should we change it? Which got a "yes" vote. The second gave some alternatives, but the current flag won out in the end - possibly because some of the alternatives were fairly dire.
I am not that interested in flag waving, but I was surprised how strongly I felt against some of the alternatives and in the end supported keeping the current flag, with the hope that some better alternatives may be offered at some time in the future.
I think NZ only made flag burning illegal in the last few years.
Huia
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I just want to let everyone know that I took the knee in the lounge-room at work when the National Anthem was sung at the beginning of today's Grand Final. It was quite a struggle to get up.
On the subject of Australia's national symbol, I reckon it is the flag, but it could also be a sprig of wattle or a kangaroo. Lots of people would like to see the flag changed, and for Australia to become a Republic, so there isn't consensus around our national symbols as there was say in the 1950's.
Isn't it a surf board and a Barbie, complete with sangers and shrimps?
Posted by Kittyville (# 16106) on
:
I do hope you're taking the piss, Karl. Shrimp? Shrimp?!
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
NZ spent in the region of $NZ 27 million with 2 referenda in 2015 and 16 to decide whether or not to change our flag. First question was should we change it? Which got a "yes" vote. The second gave some alternatives, but the current flag won out in the end - possibly because some of the alternatives were fairly dire.
Huia
Dire? Some were brilliant!
Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on
:
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
I especially liked the one with the kiwi riding on the back of the sheep... ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
IJ
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
NZ spent in the region of $NZ 27 million with 2 referenda in 2015 and 16 to decide whether or not to change our flag. First question was should we change it? Which got a "yes" vote. The second gave some alternatives, but the current flag won out in the end - possibly because some of the alternatives were fairly dire.
Huia
Dire?
I rather enjoyed this use of *that* kiwi after the final result.
Posted by Russ (# 120) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I imagine that if I took a stack of Union Jacks to certain neighbourhoods in Belfast and set fire to them - or the Irish tricolour in certain other neighbourhoods likewise - then I would be liable to have my collar felt.
But that's not usually considered a reflection of how mature and admirable Belfast culture is. Rather the opposite - it's a symptom of a severely problem-ridden society (which we all hope is gradually healing).
Burning a flag is like blasphemy; it's a deliberate disrespect of a symbol of what others hold sacred. It's bad manners.
But it seems to me that if I want the freedom to express - in symbol and in word - points of view which others might find iconoclastic or offensive, then I should be prepared to grant others the same freedom with regard to my own sacred cows.
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on
:
Correct me if I am wrong, but was there not a Kipling short story, set in the school of Stalky and Co., describing the visit of a "yellow-bellied flag flapper" to the school, and the disgust offered by the boys to such a coarse thing? Somewhat predated the "jingo" thing, but may have permeated some attitudes about the flag and all that glory, once WW1 was over.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The bemused on this side of the pond need to remember that to Americans the flag is the focus of national identity just as 'the Crown' is to subjects of Her Majesty. (I realise that this remark will enrage British republicans - but that is a topic for another thread.)
I'm not sure the phrase "focus of national identity" has much meaning to me, whether Brenda or anything else. I just don't think that way. This is probably why I don't get all this huffing and puffing about flags. They're just ways to know who's from which country at Eurovision to me.
I'm not a Republican, but I agree that the concept of a 'focus of national identity' must be problematic in Britain today. And certainly in England.
It's a fragmented and rapidly changing country, and the very idea of everyone rallying around the Queen, or around a flag, just doesn't feel authentic. AFAICS even Brexit isn't being experienced as an outburst of some sort of flag- or crown-based mania. IMO it's more of an expression of the lack of confidence in flags and monarchs.
This American fuss about flags is one of those cultural phenomena that prove what a different sort of place it is.
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on
:
I have been the chaplain in charge of military funerals. I was the one that would present the flag to the family member--usually the spouse or the progeny of the military member. I would repeat the words: On behalf of a grateful nation, I present this flag to you. Then I would make a slow salute and about-face.
That serviceman served his country so that people could have the right of self-expression without repercussions from the government.
Once, when a group of us were touring Communist Hungry, one night we decided to take the flag that was in the square of the village plaza. The next morning, as we were leaving the town, the police stopped us and wanted to search through all our luggage. Fortunately, we had a lot of luggage and our guide was very astute. He convinced the police to search a few bags at random. The ones they picked did not have the flag (I distinctly remember they picked a bag that was next to the one that actually had it in it). We were some lucky Americans that day.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
... Once, when a group of us were touring Communist Hungry, one night we decided to take the flag that was in the square of the village plaza. The next morning, as we were leaving the town, the police stopped us and wanted to search through all our luggage. Fortunately, we had a lot of luggage and our guide was very astute. He convinced the police to search a few bags at random. The ones they picked did not have the flag (I distinctly remember they picked a bag that was next to the one that actually had it in it). We were some lucky Americans that day.
It ought to have been obvious that was a really stupid thing to do.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
I was reminded of that poor American student in North Korea who souvenired a picture in his hotel - Oscar Weinburger? Or was he Secretary of State?
In any event, BAD GRAMPS. You risked depriving us of your company.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I was reminded of that poor American student in North Korea who souvenired a picture in his hotel - Oscar Weinburger? Or was he Secretary of State?
Otto Warmbier.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
(Caspar Weinberger was Secretary of Defense under Reagan.)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
What SvitlanaV2 said above.
Come Remembrance Sunday, I'll be interested to see how Father Polyfilla (a visiting retired priest, who calls himself that because he 'fills in the cracks'!) deals with our multi-ethnic, multi-national congregation. There will probably be only one person present who will actually have lived through WW2, but there will be others who have experienced more recent conflicts in their home countries...
I expect we shall sing our National Anthem anyway, or one verse of it at least, as a show of loyalty to the country in which we now live, and which shelters and provides for us.
IJ
Posted by Egeria (# 4517) on
:
quote:
Kipling short story, set in the school of Stalky and Co., describing the visit of a "yellow-bellied flag flapper" to the school, and the disgust offered by the boys to such a coarse thing?
Not quite--the boys referred to the M.P. in question as a "jelly-bellied flag-flapper." When he arrived at the College, he didn't want to pay his driver what he owed and got into an argument (in front of the students). Then, before the Head introduced him to the assembled students, he talked to the Head with his back to them. So, even before his crass behavior with the flag, he'd established himself as someone who exploited people and who didn't know how to behave with simple courtesy. On a much smaller scale, does he remind you of a certain greedy, vulgar, stupid subhuman in public life today?
When I was still in elementary school, a group of students (I think at the University of Arizona) sat through the national anthem in protest (against racial segregation or the Vietnam war, I don't remember). And the reaction was as bloody idiotic as what we've seen today. "They should be put in prison for life!" "They should be taken out and shot!" Barbarian flag-flappers acted like subjects in a dictatorship rather than citizens of a democracy. Ignoramuses, unaware of the First Amendment--and the Supreme Court decision that no citizen can be required to stand for the anthem or recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
So, a restaurant owner in Wisconsin has been shrieking his stupid head off urging that all participants in the anthem protests be executed. I'm glad to see that his co-owners have distanced themselves from the bigoted moron.
In elementary school we were all subjected to a good deal of right-wing political indoctrination; McCarthyism was still virulent even long after the discrediting and death of that vicious sot. If someone in the old Soviet Union was sent to prison camp for a simple act of dissent, the jingoists would have been jumping up and down screaming about the evils of Communism! (Of course, repression was perfectly OK when committed by military dictatorships in Latin America...)
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What SvitlanaV2 said above.
Come Remembrance Sunday, I'll be interested to see how Father Polyfilla (a visiting retired priest, who calls himself that because he 'fills in the cracks'!) deals with our multi-ethnic, multi-national congregation. There will probably be only one person present who will actually have lived through WW2, but there will be others who have experienced more recent conflicts in their home countries...
I expect we shall sing our National Anthem anyway, or one verse of it at least, as a show of loyalty to the country in which we now live, and which shelters and provides for us.
IJ
Except our so-called national anthem doesn't mention the country at all. It's just a few lines of Monarchist sycophancy. I refuse to sing it. The line about "long to reign over us" particularly sticks in the craw when I'd love to wake up tomorrow to find we've shaken off this anachronism.
[ 01. October 2017, 17:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Quite so. I didn't say I was looking forward to singing it, and, TBH, I'd prefer it if we didn't. In any case, the prayer 'long to reign over us' has been answered, surely.
(When I occasionally officiate at Matins, which is mostly attended by the staff, prior to the Sunday Eucharist, I never use the prayers for Queen and Royal Family. Is Outrage, I know, so sue me...).
IJ
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
(When I occasionally officiate at Matins, which is mostly attended by the staff, prior to the Sunday Eucharist, I never use the prayers for Queen and Royal Family. Is Outrage, I know, so sue me...).
IJ
Hardly anyone does the state rayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at he 3rd collect.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
Seriously though the lack of a proper national anthem does nothing to engender any sense of identity.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
@leo, you are quite right, but our Matins is FWIW stand-alone - 930am Matins, 1030am Eucharist, with 35-40 minutes in between the two.
IJ
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
Gee D, I did not say the Queen is the symbol of national identity on this side of the pond (are you on the same side as us, in fact?), I deliberately said 'the Crown'. My country is the United Kingdom, after all; the Commonwealth is part of The Commonwealth, after all, of which the Queen is the head (for the time being). Perhaps you could tell us what is your symbol of national identity.
No, I am on the western side of a pond larger than the Atlantic.
I took your point about Queen/Crown. Whichever way you put it, neither is a symbol of national identity. Nor is the flag although there's no real support for moves to change it. It is extremely hard to think of one. For Madame and me, it is the land itself, although not in the same manner as for the ancient peoples. They belong to the land, where they were born shapes them and describes them. It is not as if the land belongs to them. But saying that the land is for us is not to say that it is for many others. Perhaps it's Anzac Day.
[ 01. October 2017, 20:49: Message edited by: Gee D ]
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Once, when a group of us were touring Communist Hungry, one night we decided to take the flag that was in the square of the village plaza.
"Take it"? You mean you decided to steal it? quote:
The next morning, as we were leaving the town, the police stopped us and wanted to search through all our luggage. Fortunately, we had a lot of luggage and our guide was very astute. He convinced the police to search a few bags at random. The ones they picked did not have the flag (I distinctly remember they picked a bag that was next to the one that actually had it in it). We were some lucky Americans that day.
Lucky thieves. I don't see how your being American enters into it (unless you feel lucky that the police didn't discover that on this occasion American behavior was exactly as shitty as they suspected.)
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Gotta go with Dave W. on this one.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
:
Something which has never been explained to me: why do we play the national anthem at all at some sporting events? Specifically, why bother if the teams or the players are all from the same country anyway? Which sports and what level of competition require an anthem?
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
Not me. Dave is being too heavy-handed, although if he happens to be a nostalgic Hungarian Communist I will withdraw my criticism.
It sounds like Gramps and his fellow travelers* were out on a college-style lark. It's on the same level of criminality as daubing an advertising billboard with a political slogan.
*titter
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Something which has never been explained to me: why do we play the national anthem at all at some sporting events? Specifically, why bother if the teams or the players are all from the same country anyway? Which sports and what level of competition require an anthem?
I don't think they do it for the Cricket (Test Cricket you heathens). That might be because everyone's anthem was God Save the Queen until India achieved nationhood... (don't bother checking that, its probably wrong).
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Once, when a group of us were touring Communist Hungry, one night we decided to take the flag that was in the square of the village plaza.
"Take it"? You mean you decided to steal it? quote:
The next morning, as we were leaving the town, the police stopped us and wanted to search through all our luggage. Fortunately, we had a lot of luggage and our guide was very astute. He convinced the police to search a few bags at random. The ones they picked did not have the flag (I distinctly remember they picked a bag that was next to the one that actually had it in it). We were some lucky Americans that day.
Lucky thieves. I don't see how your being American enters into it (unless you feel lucky that the police didn't discover that on this occasion American behavior was exactly as shitty as they suspected.)
Communism being equal to Liberty oriented systems and all, hell even better in a lot of ways!
Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Not me. Dave is being too heavy-handed, although if he happens to be a nostalgic Hungarian Communist I will withdraw my criticism.
It sounds like Gramps and his fellow travelers* were out on a college-style lark. It's on the same level of criminality as daubing an advertising billboard with a political slogan.
*titter
So if I'm Hungarian, Gramps49's story is one of theft, but if I'm not, it isn't? This appears to be a variety of relativism with which I'm not familiar.
romanlion's relativism is more straightforward - theft is bad in principle (I assume he would agree), but not if you're an American in a communist country.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
no, no. If you were emotionally connected to the situation, I would refrain from criticising you. That's all. I would seek to be understanding of your pain. I am a beautiful human being, I know. I sometimes move myself to tears. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Not me. Dave is being too heavy-handed, although if he happens to be a nostalgic Hungarian Communist I will withdraw my criticism.
It sounds like Gramps and his fellow travelers* were out on a college-style lark. It's on the same level of criminality as daubing an advertising billboard with a political slogan.
*titter
So if I'm Hungarian, Gramps49's story is one of theft, but if I'm not, it isn't? This appears to be a variety of relativism with which I'm not familiar.
romanlion's relativism is more straightforward - theft is bad in principle (I assume he would agree), but not if you're an American in a communist country.
Wasn't that what happened with that youngish American guy who was imprisoned in N. Korea, was released this year due to ill health, and who died after he got home? I think he took either a N. Korean flag or propaganda poster. NK Was Not Amused.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Something which has never been explained to me: why do we play the national anthem at all at some sporting events? Specifically, why bother if the teams or the players are all from the same country anyway? Which sports and what level of competition require an anthem?
I suppose sports are a tribal activity and the anthem singing is part of its tribal nature, like wearing your team’s scarf?
I don’t know, I don’t support any team in any sport.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Something which has never been explained to me: why do we play the national anthem at all at some sporting events? Specifically, why bother if the teams or the players are all from the same country anyway? Which sports and what level of competition require an anthem?
I'm not sure if there is an explanation - as discussed above, British non-international team sports generally are not opened with anthems. One exception in my experience is Ice Hockey, which is particularly ridiculous in the UK where a large proportion of the players are not British.
My assumption is that in the main it is left to crowds (and sometimes DJs who lead the crowds) to create the aural landscape at many sports. Those sports here which do habitually play the national anthem seem to be ones where the culture has been imported from North America.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.
That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.
Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
I have no problem praying for the Queen and the government - I'm praying that they'll not make more stupid decisions, that they'll face the consequences of their actions (in the case of the Tories) and that she'll quickly come to her senses and resign (in the case of the Queen).
I always think that the Queen certainly needs saving and that her councillors certainly need a bit of wisdom.
Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on
:
Bishop'a Finger, why do you refuse to pray for the Supreme Governor of your Church?
(I can't pursue this further now, I am about to leave for a week in Europe - I hope to be allowed back.)
Posted by Kittyville (# 16106) on
:
quote:
There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
Hence the excellent line from Lord Denning which was, until recently, a (Kiwi, I think) shipmate's sig:
The House of Commons starts its proceedings with a prayer. The chaplain looks at the assembled members with their varied intelligence and then prays for the country.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
I'd be looking for a better authority than Lord Denning.....
Be that as it may, I can remember the weekly praying for Elizabeth our Queen, Phillip Duke of Edinburgh, Charles Duke of Cornwall* and all the Royal Family. We can't have prayed hard enough for poor little Charles.
* That will give you an idea how long ago it was - well before he became Prince of Wales.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
@Eirenist (I know you're away, but just very quickly) - I omit the State Prayers because we've already prayed for the Queen in the Lesser Litany ('O Lord, save the Queen. And mercifully hear us when we call upon thee').
Also, we need to keep Matins brief, as various jobs (such as lifts to church for an elderly member of the assembly of faith) have to be done before the Eucharist.
IJ
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
We do Matins from the book - state prayers and all, and the Litany is intoned during the penitential seasons.
posted by Bishops Finger quote:
I omit the State Prayers because we've already prayed for the Queen in the Lesser Litany ... we need to keep Matins brief...
You must be saving at least 45 seconds by skipping the prayers for HM, The DoE, PoW and royal family.
[ 02. October 2017, 16:43: Message edited by: L'organist ]
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Yes, that's about right. Time well saved.
IJ
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.
That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.
Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
In which case, replace prayers for the queen and royal family (who have no power) with those for parliament.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Actually, what I usually do with the 45 seconds saved ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
is to pray extempore for those who will be coming into church that day, for worship or other pastoral reasons, and for our neighbouring parishes, before saying the Prayer for the Clergy and People. Given that we use Matins primarily as a 'staff' preparation for the Eucharist, that seems appropriate. Queen and Government etc. are usually prayed for during the Eucharist as well, of course.
IJ
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Our so-called national anthem doesn't mention the country at all. It's just a few lines of Monarchist sycophancy. I refuse to sing it. The line about "long to reign over us" particularly sticks in the craw when I'd love to wake up tomorrow to find we've shaken off this anachronism.
The trouble is, the British people wouldn't agree about what the replacement should be.
You want us to forget the anachronism of the monarchy; others would want the monarch to be given at least a passing mention.
Some would prefer to remove all religious references, but others would struggle against that.
Occasionally, someone proposes that 'Jerusalem' become our national anthem, but I don't think that's quite right either. No monarchy, but the religious references are problematic. Also, it references a city that's nowhere near England!
Maybe we could get around the problem by creating a specifically English anthem. There could be a competition to come up with suitable song.
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.
That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.
Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
In which case, replace prayers for the queen and royal family (who have no power) with those for parliament.
The 1959/1962 Canadian BCP also asks that the GG and Lt Governors get endued with wisdom along with the legislators. The Book of Alternative Services gives no set prayers for the offices or the Eucharist, just a rubrical instruction to pray for the Queen and all in authority; occasional prayers for HM, authorities, and elections are on pp. 677ff for the curious. More attention gets paid to acknowledging the sometimes ceded sometimes unceded land upon which we stand.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Queen .....usually prayed for during the Eucharist as well, of course.
IJ
Well, I suppose we often pray for old people.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Except our so-called national anthem doesn't mention the country at all. It's just a few lines of Monarchist sycophancy. I refuse to sing it. The line about "long to reign over us" particularly sticks in the craw when I'd love to wake up tomorrow to find we've shaken off this anachronism.
In its defence, it's really a prayer set to music. Like God save the Emperor, which has much better music of course
I like the second verse, with confounding politics and especially frustrating knavish tricks. And how much the language has changed since it was written.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?
Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
I'd like to nominate Love Minus Zero/No Limit by Bob Dylan as the Planetary Anthem.
My reasons include:
1. It was written by a winner of the Nobel Prize;
2. It has no overt political or religious meaning;
3. Its about how you look at the person you love when you love them in the best way you can;
4. It is one of my favorite songs;
5. It's guaranteed to annoy Putin and Trump.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
Except for the name of the country I've always felt America the Beautiful was a good and pretty generic anthem for use in any country that has water boundaries and mountains.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
Both great suggestions. I shall refrain from being silly for the moment in the hope that more good ones are proffered. Rest assured I am absolutely gagging to post something from This is Jinsy.
I wonder if changing "America" to "The Planet Earth" would make it universal?
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
Re "God Save The Queen":
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Here's a parody I learned as a kid. There's a UK listing for it, but this is the closest to what I learned:
quote:
"God Save the King" (Experience Project).
King George, he had a date,
He stayed out very late,
He was the king.
Queen Mary paced the floor,
King George came home at four,
She met him at the door,
God save the King!
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.
Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.
[ 05. October 2017, 07:50: Message edited by: Enoch ]
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
:
According to one of my favourite Big Finish Doctor Who audio adventures, the planet Earth already has an anthem. It’s “I Will Survive”.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.
It's a very moving tune, isn't it? As are most Welsh songs, ISTM. I like the male voice choirs.
But I don't think singing about a shared culture would work in England, where there's so much diversity of culture. Singing about ancient warriors in the homeland of the British empire would be a problem.
References to natural beauty are inoffensive, though, and the English could also get mileage out of singing about poets, musicians, scientists, inventors, etc.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sais ydw i, nid Cymro/I'm an Englishman, not a Welshman, but I find Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau easier to sing than God Save the Queen by milltir wlad/a country mile.
It's a very moving tune, isn't it? As are most Welsh songs, ISTM. I like the male voice choirs.
But I don't think singing about a shared culture would work in England, where there's so much diversity of culture. Singing about ancient warriors in the homeland of the British empire would be a problem.
References to natural beauty are inoffensive, though, and the English could also get mileage out of singing about poets, musicians, scientists, inventors, etc.
Ageing 2000AD readers may remember the Ghoyogian national anthem from DR and Quinch: "Ghoyogi, my Ghoyogi, home of the brave and free. Where greenish grey festoons of slime are hung from every tree."
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
Though, seriously (no, not really) England could do worse than adopt the last lines of Gong's Flying Teapot
quote:
Originally written by a stoned hippy
Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea
Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea
Have a cup of tea, have another one, have a cup of tea...
High in the sky, what do you see?
Come down to Earth, a cup of tea
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
Not too bad....
But you'd need to have at least a line in there about the now dominant appeal of coffee.
Posted by Cod (# 2643) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If the English are looking to have a national anthem of their own and wondering where to start, they could do worse than look at the Welsh anthem (in translation of course) for inspiration. For those shippies not fortunate to have been born Welsh, it is about the land, language, culture and our preparedness to emulate our ancestors in its defence. The sentiment of pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad (I'm devoted to my land/country) is surely something most English people could share?
Sounds like just about all national anthems then.
Why have a national anthem at all? Their main use is sporting events, and in my view the only appropriate way to begin one is with a whistle, except cricket, which should be begun with a polite round of applause.
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
My Heart Belongs to Jinsy
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.
Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.
I used to hear a Canadian version of TLIYL, as a kid in the 1970s. The country was said to span `...from the Arctic Circle, to the Great Lake waters`. (Sorry, can`t get the quotation marks to work on this computer.)
Maybe we sang it in school, I`m not sure.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
@Svitlana ...
So Blake's Jerusalem references a city that is nowhere near England ...
Blimey, I thought Jamat was the literalist on these boards ...
You have heard of metaphor, I presume?
Posted by Steve Langton (# 17601) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.
Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.
Back in the late 1960s the Young Liberals published a songbook including a 'Britishised' version of "This Land is Your Land; I regret I didn't keep my copy. Has anyone out there got those words???
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Svitlana ...
So Blake's Jerusalem references a city that is nowhere near England ...
Blimey, I thought Jamat was the literalist on these boards ...
You have heard of metaphor, I presume?
The question is whether it's an appropriate metaphor for our nation as it is at present. I'm not sure it is. Maybe we need to re-invent the idea of the mythical utopian city for a different age.
But if you're also saying that English towns and cities lack poetic elegance then I suppose I'd have to agree. Who wants to sing about Huddersfield, Leicester or Plymouth, for example? Perhaps the folk who live there, but I wouldn't even be sure of that.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've always liked the idea of using Woody Guthrie's This Land is Your Land as our national anthem.
The specific geographical references make it no good for anyone else to adopt.
Even without that the musical style is also a bit too nation-specific to be usable elsewhere.
Back in the late 1960s the Young Liberals published a songbook including a 'Britishised' version of "This Land is Your Land; I regret I didn't keep my copy. Has anyone out there got those words???
When I was about 10 (in the early sixties) our Headmaster wrote a New Zealand version.
"This land is my land, this land is your land,
From Cape Maria, to Stewart Island,
In kauri forests and Cook Strait waters.
This land was made for you and me." - LG Anderson.
Huia
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
:
May the gloss in Ross be a good gloss...
Paint commercial
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
"This land is my land, this land is your land,
From Cape Maria, to Stewart Island,
In kauri forests and Cook Strait waters.
This land was made for you and me." - LG Anderson.
Huia [/QB]
Sometime either near of before Greenbelt (a churchy festival that takes place on one of the estates of the D o Queensbury, D o Beccleuch (pronounced Ber-clue) and E o Dalkeith) I did try mapping it across
From john of groats to the isles of scilly
This land .. to you and me.
I saw a sign that said owned by Beccleuch
... other side ... land belongs to me and you
[of course in Britain that's not true]
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hardly anyone does the state prayers - in any case, if you're following with a mass you can end at the 3rd collect.
That might explain why the country is in such a mess these days.
Praying for those in power isn't a statement that one thinks they are wonderful, that one supports them or that one believes a word they say. There's a good argument that it's those that are incompetent and worse who need prayer more. The rest of us are at their mercy.
Yes. Our prayer here in US since January: "oh, my God! Oh my GOD, OH MY GOD!" Desperation does wonders for ones prayer life
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
And in today's news: Vice President Mike Pence walked out of Sunday’s NFL game between the Indianapolis Colts and the San Francisco 49ers as several 49ers players knelt in protest during a rendition of the national anthem.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
He's a tool and sock puppet of Voldemort, so what do you expect.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Insult to Lord Voldemort! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Is Outrage!
IJ
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
His master's voice. What a good doggie!
[ 08. October 2017, 21:15: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Jay-Emm
The Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry (Queensbury is a suburb of London) are the same person. The Earl of Dalkeith is the courtesy title for the eldest son of the dukedom.
Just sayin'
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
:
It was totally a stunt.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
(Queensbury is a suburb of London)
I don't think it's that Queensbury - I think the name was invented by a developer in the 30s who took the name from adjacent Kingsbury.
There is a "proper" Queensberry near Bradford in Yorkshire - I wonder if it's that one?
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Jay-Emm
The Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry (Queensbury is a suburb of London) are the same person. The Earl of Dalkeith is the courtesy title for the eldest son of the dukedom.
Just sayin'
I knew they were the same. Didn't realise the Dalkeith title wasn't.
(Wiki seemed to suggest Queensbury is Scottish maybe?, I'd assumed it was the London one-esp with the half the British museum area being Montegue House. It also mentioned the courtesy title, but I'd only looked it up to change the spelling and didn't really absorb it)
Anyhow on topic. I think the aristocracy get some of the odd treatment that the flag and anthem gets in America.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
My recollection is that this Dalkeith is just a bit south from Edinburgh.
A very good biography of Hugh Trevor-Roper has o photograph of him sitting on the walls of Drumlanrig between the Duchesses of Buccleugh and Newcastle. He looks to be enjoying himself.
[ 09. October 2017, 08:34: Message edited by: Gee D ]
Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It was totally a stunt.
So Mike Pence used the national anthem to stage a political protest, and what he was protesting was that you shouldn't use the national anthem to stage political protests.
That's way more "meta" and absurdist than I would have thought Pence capable of!
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He's a tool and sock puppet of Voldemort, so what do you expect.
My favorite thing I ever read about Mike Pence is: "Somewhere in Indiana a Quizno's is missing its assistant manager."
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It was totally a stunt.
So Mike Pence used the national anthem to stage a political protest, and what he was protesting was that you shouldn't use the national anthem to stage political protests.
That's way more "meta" and absurdist than I would have thought Pence capable of!
What it is, is hypocritical. And he is well capable of that.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He's a tool and sock puppet of Voldemort, so what do you expect.
My favorite thing I ever read about Mike Pence is: "Somewhere in Indiana a Quizno's is missing its assistant manager."
I would happily replace him and his boss with any two Quizno's assistant managers drawn at random from the HR database.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
These protests are nothing new.
The snollygoster-in-chief just needs another distraction from what he's doing and not doing.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
:
And he's turned "stop killing us" to "disrespecting veterans and the flag."
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
... The snollygoster-in-chief just needs another distraction from what he's doing and not doing.
Is 'snollygoster' your personal neologism or does it have a specific meaning but in a dialect I don't speak? It sounds suitably disparging. I'd like to adopt it for my own use. But is it just a general term of abuse or does it have a specific meaning. I'm a bit hesitant to use it if it's got a meaning that I don't know.
Posted by Stephen (# 40) on
:
Enoch
Try this for size....
I have to admit that our friends across the pond are a very expressive people...... .....you can insult people without actually swearing!
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
Piglet introduced the word "snollygoster" on the Interesting Words thread in Heaven.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
That's a really useful word. We've a lot of them here too. Mr De Pf****l J*****n for one.
Posted by Stephen (# 40) on
:
Amazing what you learn here isn't it?
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