Ship of Fools: Someone is rolling in his grave tonight

Thread: Someone is rolling in his grave tonight Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

NBC is reporting that the Jefferson Davis International Baccalaureate Elementary School in Jackson Mississippi is changing its name to the Barack Obama Elementary School. Not sure if it is going to continue to call itself the other names.

Jefferson Davis was the only president of the Confederate States of America.

Meanwhile, in Texas, the Robert E Lee High School is changing its name to the L.E.E. High School.

Sometimes we have to accept the baby steps. Other times we don't.

[ 18. October 2017, 23:29: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
NBC is reporting that the Jefferson Davis International Baccalaureate Elementary School in Jackson Mississippi is changing its name to the Barack Obama Elementary School.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

At the very least it's now named after a person who did not try to rebel against the authority of the United States....

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Is it usual in the US to name things after people still living? Over here you have to be safely dead - usually.

In the prison I minister in there is a huge mural on one wall painted by inmates. It features Gandhi, Mandela, both safely dead (although Mandela bears a suspicious resemblance to Obama in this depiction) - and Aung San Suu Kyi; oops.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

There were a heck of a lot of things (particularly in student unions) names after Mandela in his lifetime.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I think it is often the case that big institutions - like schools - are named after people who are unlikely to disgrace themselves in the next few years. Obama has proven that he going to be a good name for a while yet.

Mandela was fine, as he was in prison, so unlikely to do something stupid.

I am just trying to think whether there are any public places in the UK named after Oliver Cromwell - the closest we really have. Probably not, although they can always pretend it it Thomas instead.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

I am just trying to think whether there are any public places in the UK named after Oliver Cromwell

Aldi sell a very good own-brand gin called Oliver Cromwell. As they are a German company it was perhaps named on the same system as London Bridge Scotch Whisky.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

I am just trying to think whether there are any public places in the UK named after Oliver Cromwell - the closest we really have. Probably not, although they can always pretend it it Thomas instead.

There is a Cromwell school IIRC in Chatteris, Cambs.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

I am just trying to think whether there are any public places in the UK named after Oliver Cromwell - the closest we really have. Probably not, although they can always pretend it it Thomas instead.
There is a Cromwell school IIRC in Chatteris, Cambs.

a rather notorious street in Gloucester....a steam engine... there's also a rather good likeness of his head pinned to the wall by his ears above the door to the Worcester guidlhall, but then Worcester is of course the "faithful city"

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Several statues of him (including one outside the Houses of Parliament), he's also in a stained glass window in Emmanuel URC, Cambridge ...

Point is - and this is always the tricky question - he's part of history whether we like it or not.

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

(Tangentially) Cromwell's head is supposed to lie under the floor of the chapel of Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, of which Cromwell was an alumnus. There was a story in my time of a fellow of the college (i.e. teaching staff) who was a staunch royalist. He would go into the chapel and jump up and down above the place he thought the head was buried.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

I am just trying to think whether there are any public places in the UK named after Oliver Cromwell
Aldi sell a very good own-brand gin called Oliver Cromwell. As they are a German company it was perhaps named on the same system as London Bridge Scotch Whisky.

Rather amusingly, the name (in small type) is surmounted by a crown.
Ollie Cromwell gin.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
....a steam engine...

which still runs on the main line. The Metropolitan Railway also had an electric locomotive the same as this one.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Here is the Lord Protector himself, looking quite splendid, prior to preservation, I think:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e7/8b/32/e78b326aee92697050405e12e2444ba8.jpg

Handsome engines, like most of Mr. Riddles' standard British Railways types.

(That might have to go over onto the Unpopular Opinions thread).

IJ

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
NBC is reporting that the Jefferson Davis International Baccalaureate Elementary School in Jackson Mississippi is changing its name to the Barack Obama Elementary School. Not sure if it is going to continue to call itself the other names.

Jefferson Davis was the only president of the Confederate States of America.

Some have pointed out that Davis would probably be relieved to have his name removed to an institution dedicated to educating a largely black student body. From the Clarion-Ledger:

quote:
“Jefferson Davis, although infamous in his own right, would probably not be too happy about a diverse school promoting the education of the very individuals he fought to keep enslaved being named after him,” [Davis Magnet IB PTA President Janelle Jefferson] told the board.

A demographic breakdown of Davis Magnet’s enrollment for 2017 shows 98 percent of the school’s students are black.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I like the idea of Oliver Cromwell GIN - I'll have to buy a bottle for our very loyal Royalist Madam Sacristan!

The '1599' on the label is the year of the Lord Protector's birth, of course, and perhaps the cheeky little crown is a reference to his being offered the Crown, by Parliament, in 1657.

As Baptist Trainfan says, these people, whether we like them or not, are part of our countries' histories.

IJ

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

As Baptist Trainfan says, these people, whether we like them or not, are part of our countries' histories.

But a statue isn't like a picture in a history textbook. The point isn't usually just to teach us who the person was, but rather to suggest that there is something honourable about them.

Which maybe there was, with Cromwell(I'm less convinced about Jefferson Davis). The point is, though, if someone says there shouldn't be a statue of him because he was a bad guy, it's not gonna suffice just to reply "Well, he's part of our history."

[ 19. October 2017, 15:30: Message edited by: Stetson ]

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
As Baptist Trainfan says, these people, whether we like them or not, are part of our countries' histories.
But a statue isn't like a picture in a history textbook. The point isn't usually just to teach us who the person was, but rather to suggest that there is something honourable about them.

Most people learn history from books, or classroom instruction, or documentaries. Very few do so by looking at statues or the names on public buildings. Those things exist to valorize and celebrate certain people or causes. Sometimes the re-assessments of future generations is harsh, but it isn't always unfair.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Here is the Lord Protector himself, looking quite splendid, prior to preservation, I think.

Yes, but only just - it has painted "nameplates" and is, I guess, at Carnforth; the proper plates were removed in its last year or two of service so they wouldn't get nicked.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
As Baptist Trainfan says, these people, whether we like them or not, are part of our countries' histories.
But a statue isn't like a picture in a history textbook. The point isn't usually just to teach us who the person was, but rather to suggest that there is something honourable about them.
Most people learn history from books, or classroom instruction, or documentaries. Very few do so by looking at statues or the names on public buildings. Those things exist to valorize and celebrate certain people or causes. Sometimes the re-assessments of future generations is harsh, but it isn't always unfair.

Exactly.

All sorts of people are history. Including the guy who lived down the street and made buggy hitches and never cheated anybody. But not everybody gets a statue. So it means something when we single someone out for that distinction.

And public art has context. To place a statue of Lee in a public square with no context or explanation other than "led the confederate army" suggests something about how the community feels about Lee and the confederate cause. As has been pointed out, these confederate statues were not raised immediately following the war, but during the rise of Jim Crow-- the intent seems to be precisely that-- to send a message to "uppity" African Americans about the community values.

That's different than, say, putting a statue of Lee in an African American history museum along with other artifacts and items that are detailing the actual history of those events-- what happened and why and what led up to it. The context is highly significant.

I would say naming an elementary school (especially one with a high percentage of African American students) "Robert E Lee" is I would say much much closer to the former than the latter. Maybe if they made it an magnet honors school & named it "Refuting Robert E Lee Elementary School...."

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

@BT - yes, Carnforth MPD it is, I'm sure.

The fact that the Lord Protector 70013 had to have his nameplates removed for safe keeping, prior to his official preservation, may indicate not only the value of the plates, but of the name itself.

[Two face]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:

Which maybe there was, with Cromwell(I'm less convinced about Jefferson Davis). The point is, though, if someone says there shouldn't be a statue of him because he was a bad guy, it's not gonna suffice just to reply "Well, he's part of our history."

I think there's also a considerable difference about when the statue was erected.

If a statue was erected when someone was generally considered to be a hero, but modern society views his actions in a somewhat different light, there's a case for the statue to remain, as the statue itself is part of history. Erecting a new statue of him would be a rather different thing.

I'm imagining, for example, statues of Clive of India. There's one in London that was erected at the start of the 20th century. I think that should stay, although views of Empire have changed a lot over the last century. And it's in context - London is full of statues of long-dead men, some of whom are on horses, and most of whom would deserve less than whole-hearted adulation given a modern assessment.

Statues of Confederacy leaders erected every time Black Americans get one step closer to equality? Those are something else entirely.

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Here is the Lord Protector himself, looking quite splendid, prior to preservation, I think:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e7/8b/32/e78b326aee92697050405e12e2444ba8.jpg

Handsome engines, like most of Mr. Riddles' standard British Railways types.

(That might have to go over onto the Unpopular Opinions thread).

IJ

(Sorry about another tangent)

I saw said loco probably at Carnforth Shed, in the Easter school holidays in 1968. Someone in my school knew how to get shed passes, and a few of us went up to the NW to visit the sheds at Patricroft, Carnforth and possibly one or two others. It was mostly black 5's and 8Fs, if memory serves, and they had the yellow diagonal line on the cab side, indicating that they were not allowed on the electrified lines.

But the Britannia class was a special treat, particularly as my first train-set featured 70000 with some pullman carriages.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
As has been pointed out, these confederate statues were not raised immediately following the war, but during the rise of Jim Crow -- the intent seems to be precisely that -- to send a message to "uppity" African Americans about the community values.

Some were, and some weren't. You can usually tell when a Confederate monument was erected by where it was placed. If it's in a cemetery or a noted battlefield it was more likely to have been put up in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War. If it's in front of a courthouse or the middle of a public square, it's almost certainly a Jim Crow relic.

I'm reminded of the "Boot Monument", which was erected to commemorate the actions of Benedict Arnold during the Battle of Saratoga. The monument contrives to neither name Arnold nor depict him in any physically recognizable way. Just a depiction of the leg where he was wounded during the battle. Sometimes you can say a lot by omission.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
they had the yellow diagonal line on the cab side, indicating that they were not allowed on the electrified lines.

a pedant writes - and I wasn't born until 1980 - not allowed on the electrified lines *south of Crewe*; below that on the London Midland mainline to Euston the wires were lower slung because overbridges and tunnels were generally older and smaller/lower.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... I'm imagining, for example, statues of Clive of India. There's one in London that was erected at the start of the 20th century. ...

There was a Britannia called after him too, 70040.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I saw said loco probably at Carnforth Shed, in the Easter school holidays in 1968.

I saw said loco at Ipswich about 5 years ago, I'm pleased to say. Highly appropriate as they revolutionised travel on the Grea Eastern line in the 1950s.

There was another one called "Boadicea" who, of course, has a wildly romanticised statue on the Embankment, and one called "Lord Hurcomb" who I'm sure has no statue at all!

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Of course there are six statues of American Presidents in London.

6) Ronald Reagan Paid for by the Ronald Reagan Foundation. Credited for ending the Cold War.

5) John F Kennedy. A bust, actually. Paid for largely by readers of the Daily Telegraph. He spent his youth in London and liked the British in contrast to his father who hated the British.

4) Dwight Eisenhower. Don't know who paid for it, but Margaret Thatcher attended the dedication. Honored for being the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces in Europe.

3) Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Paid for by the British people. Honored for coming to the aid of the British people in WWII. Dedication attended by the queen, the prime minister, and Winston Churchill

2) Abraham Lincoln. Dedicated to commemorate 100 years of peace between the United States and Britain. Most beloved president in Britain, it is said.

1) George Washington. There is a popular legend that Washington, whose family came from the North East of England, had said he would never set foot on British soil again so some American soil was put under the statue comply with his wishes. It is a replica of an original by Jean Antoine Houdon and was given to Britain by the Commonwealth of Virginia in 1924.

Now, since GW was a rebel---

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I'm imagining, for example, statues of Clive of India.

Until I just googled, this was the only Clive of India I knew.

[ 22. October 2017, 08:11: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :

"No one learns from statues" ....not true! Anyone with kids finds that is not true out quickly enough.(unless your child never asks questions and in over 40 years working with kids that was a very rare occurance indeed)

I constantly asked who the statues were in Glasgow, and there were loads, when I was a kid. My grandpa was a brilliant storyteller of historical figures. I learned more from him and the statues, than from many history lessons.

My son did the same as a kid in London."Who is that mum?" I didn't always know and would have to go to find out for myself, in order to answer his questions (or ask my husband).

We may not always like the statues of those "heroes" of the past. But if you airbrush history you end up down the same route as Soviet Russia.

Does anyone remember that Mr Popov invented just about everything in the USSR.....including penicillin, TV and radio!

Much as I don't like some of the statues around, they can teach us where our ancestors went wrong. Without learning from the past we repeat the same mistakes. Statues of un-heroes will help us remember not to repeat their mistakes.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Indeed, and reverting temporarily to British Railways' Britannia class locomotives, we had not only Oliver Cromwell, but also the Iron Duke (i.e. the Duke of Wellington, not the UK's most popular Prime Minister ever), and other notable figures in British history, not all of whom might be revered today.

Here's the full list - make up your own minds!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BR_%27Britannia%27_Class_locomotives

IJ

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
"No one learns from statues" ....not true! Anyone with kids finds that is not true out quickly enough.(unless your child never asks questions and in over 40 years working with kids that was a very rare occurance indeed)

Children can also learn quite a bit about human [ahem] anatomy from looking at statues. Those fig leaves don't cover everything!

[Snigger]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
"No one learns from statues" ....not true! Anyone with kids finds that is not true out quickly enough.(unless your child never asks questions and in over 40 years working with kids that was a very rare occurance indeed)

I constantly asked who the statues were in Glasgow, and there were loads, when I was a kid. My grandpa was a brilliant storyteller of historical figures. I learned more from him and the statues, than from many history lessons.

My son did the same as a kid in London."Who is that mum?" I didn't always know and would have to go to find out for myself, in order to answer his questions (or ask my husband).

We may not always like the statues of those "heroes" of the past. But if you airbrush history you end up down the same route as Soviet Russia....

Much as I don't like some of the statues around, they can teach us where our ancestors went wrong. Without learning from the past we repeat the same mistakes. Statues of un-heroes will help us remember not to repeat their mistakes.

Of course, I agree that kids are constantly asking questions, and will learn from their observations and questions about statues. The question, though, is WHAT they will learn. This is, again, where the context in which these statues are placed is critical.

When statues of confederate heroes are placed in conjunction with statues of abolitionists, slaves, or other artifacts telling the story of slavery and/or the Civil War (such as in the Nat'l African American History museum) then yes, you are quite correct-- statues of Lee, etc. will be part of the bigger story of America's shameful past and an effective warning vs. racism and bigotry.

But those aren't the statues that are being called into question. The statues that are being called into question are those that appear w/o commentary and w/o context-- no accompanying statues or artifacts or discussion that explain why there is a statue of General Lee in front of the courthouse. Sure, some parents will fill in those blanks, but many will not.

Given, again, that our shared history contains the stories of millions of people, many of them heroic or admirable, when we single out only one of those people to be honored with a statue in front of the courthouse, and do so without any accompanying information or supplementary material, the clear implication is "this person was exemplary". It suggests that the community as a whole endorses what this person stood for. Again, the fact that so many of these statues were erected during the ramp-up of Jim Crow further suggests that the intent was to reframe history and present a warning against "uppity" blacks who were agitating against the injustices of Jim Crow.

I don't know of anyone who objects to statues of Lee or anyone else appearing in an educational context that tells the history of slavery in America, and the role that Lee and the Confederacy played in that. The problem is with the vast majority of these statues that are placed in a much, much different context with a much, much different message.

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

I've realised through a few threads here I know next to nothing about Jim Crow.

I'm not entirely sure I want to know more about him in particular, but if I did want to know more about that time, are there any books folk have read that they would recommend? And any museums that would be worth a visit? [may be over your way next year]

Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :

You might consider the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture in Washington, DC. I haven't visited it myself, but it was well-reviewed upon opening and is one of the four most popular Smithsonian museums.

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I've realised through a few threads here I know next to nothing about Jim Crow.

I'm not entirely sure I want to know more about him in particular . . . .

Just to be clear, Jim Crow was not an actual person. You can read about the origin of the name/term here.

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

oh! Dare you go Nick. That's how much I knew...zip.

Thanks Dave; looks great.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
[qb] Just to be clear, Jim Crow was not an actual person...

Trump probably thinks that Jim Crow is alive and well and best friends with Frederick Douglass.

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Re dealing with objectionable statues, etc.:

On a purely pragmatic basis, understanding the objections but wanting to avoid any more violence, what about putting up sort of "answering" statues in response? Like Harriet Tubman, ex-slave and conductor on the "Underground Railroad" that freed slaves? Put a statue of her facing Jefferson Davis, etc., and every bit as big. Add a plaque about her, and maybe another with questions for viewers to think through. Like "what are the differences/similarities between these two people, would you want to know either of them, who do you respect most?", etc.

Or simply put up plaques like that near existing statues, talking about other perceptions of that person.

Thoughts? I totally get removing the statues. But maybe there's an alternative that will spark less violence.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

That is among the options that have been used in some places. In Charlottesville, for example, the local citizens voted from several possibilities, including adding additional materials, moving the statue to a historical museum, and selling the statue and using the funds to support reparations. The voters chose the latter. As we know, that didn't stop the violence.

Despite the tragic outcome, I think Charlottesville handled it correctly. I don't think we should make decisions based on what will placate violent thugs. That's how they win

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

cliffdweller--

Yes, I had some vague memory of that. And towns have the right to choose their own way.

I just prefer a middle way: it (hopefully) would keep pro-statue people from showing up with weapons; would give them a chance to consider other views; would give them a chance to ease into the idea; and might help people who are undecided.

Plus the people hurt/offended by the statues would have a chance to get their stories out to the general public.

FWIW, YMMV.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

These people (KKK, white supremacists) are, quite literally, terrorists. And we have a policy of not negotiating with terrorists-- for good reason.

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