Ship of Fools: Musing on therapy and purgatory

Thread: Musing on therapy and purgatory Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I'm currently seeing our local psychiatric nurse in the hope of being better able to unpick what's causing my stress and anxiety to spike disproportionately and consequently how to reduce the impact in the future. It's... difficult, but that's less interesting to me than it being in my mind something akin to Purgatory - an attempt to straighten out what has become twisted out of shape and directed to the wrong purpose, and consequently both hard work and rather painful. My encounters with the idea of Purgatory have been superficial, and largely via C S Lewis' evolution of the idea in The Great Divorce, so I was wondering what more learned heads than mine thought of the parallel.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

I've heard purgatory referred to(by a Catholic writer, I think) as "Continuing Education".

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Lewis mentioned (maybe in "God In The Dock" that Purgatory is like being told you have to take a medicine that looks awful. "Do I have to?" "Yes." "Do I really have to?" "Do I really, really have to?" "Yes." "Ok." (Paraphrase.)

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I'm fond of Tolkien's version of Purgatory in the short-story "Leaf By Niggle". (Full text.)

Small SPOILER: The story is surprisingly pleasant.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm fond of Tolkien's version of Purgatory in the short-story "Leaf By Niggle". (Full text.)

Small SPOILER: The story is surprisingly pleasant.

That's beautiful. [Waterworks]

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

It's obvious to me that Purgatory is the transcendent best of all possible worlds where we walk and talk all our kinks out for a thousand years and more in paradise.

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

Thanks for starting the thread. I'll follow it with interest, as one for whom this life is a constant working out of brokenness it seems...I relate to the concept of purgatory in the spiritual struggle quite easily.

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm fond of Tolkien's version of Purgatory in the short-story "Leaf By Niggle". (Full text.)

Small SPOILER: The story is surprisingly pleasant.

Leaf is lovely.
A theraputic purgatory does avoid some of the obvious conflicts that feel wrong (and there are of course some verses that could be applied to it). I don't know what the reality is, but most others come out a lot more screwy.

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

Purgatory is I think a partially useful construct of having a chance after this life to figure things out, come to terms with your “sins” and find redemption.
I say it is not useful because:
First, and most importantly, God loves us as we are. God does not love us because we are good, or achieve, or say the right prayers, or believe the right way, but because God is good and God is love.
Call that the Trinity, Yeshua, YHWH, Enlightenment, Nirvana, whatever; it is all an expression of arriving at a place where you see Creation as good. A place where you can identify yourself as a part of a greater whole that is not physical objects, or events. A place where it is not all about “you.”
Second, the idea of Purgatory only after you have died is believing that you cannot achieve redemption and salvation right here and right now. I believe we all can. Paul talks about the peace that passes all understanding. That, to me, is salvation and redemption.
Where, for me, the concept of Purgatory is useful is as a metaphor for the struggle to let go of ego based self-centered fear and find the relief that seeking guidance and detachment can bring. Letting go is no easy task and my ego fought me tooth and nail along the way. It still does as my first thought is often enough entirely motivated by self-centered fear. My experience was that I needed a good deal of trauma to find the motivation to go through the necessary work. Spouting out belief is not even vaguely enough. It takes pain.
When I first entered finding peace I thought the events that happened to me were punishment from God for my wicked ways. This is true of me even though I had a very personal experience of knowing, beyond doubt, that God loved me even when I hated myself. (The ego does not give up easily.)
Later, I came believe that a loving God let those things happen to me so that I could begin to change. That is still true for me, but it is not the entire truth of my story.
Now, I understand that I had a hand in what happened to me. I created those situations. I thought it was the universe not meeting my needs. Instead, it was me not meeting my expectations about how I should be and my situation should be. Once I was forced, kicking and screaming, into recognizing my own part I could find a way out from my suffering.
It was not me changing the world. That is not, and never will be, in my power. It was me changing me. It was me changing my needs and expectations for myself. It was me changing my need for the world to be the way I want it to be and dealing with reality instead.
When I do that I can find that Peace that Passes All Understanding that Paul wrote about. That is when I know that Heaven is not a far off place removed from us. Heaven is right here, right now, if we let it be here.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

As a therapist (and as a client, for that matter) I do find the metaphor compelling. Sometimes you have to feel worse before you can feel better. And you have to look the ugly stuff in the face before you can put it behind you. If you're enjoying therapy, you're probably not getting much out of it.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's obvious to me that Purgatory is the transcendent best of all possible worlds where we walk and talk all our kinks out for a thousand years and more in paradise.

I'm just trying to imagine a thousand years' worth of our Purgatory thread pages. Pray for the angelic Hosts!

Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on :

They'll fly by in Niggle's Parrish.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

Since first exposed to the idea/concept of Purgatory I had always found it deeply disburbing/distressing. The 'popular' expressions of it seemed less than helpful, and although admittedly a major work, Newman's 'Dream of Gerontius' with its 'penal waters' didn't help much.
And then, I discovered Dante's Divine Comedy. His 7-story mountain of purgatory somehow made sense of the whole concept, and while there's a lot still to unwrap, I feel that it is a hill I can climb, if you see what I mean.

Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :

quote:
Newman's 'Dream of Gerontius' with its 'penal waters' didn't help much

I love that passage, but different folks . . .

For many Universalists, there is a change of Hell into Purgatory.

So all suffering is to reform and refine, not just for retribution, and therefore Hell -> Purgatory.

That makes the most sense to me, although I could never claim anything like certainty as to what happens post mortem.

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