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Yes cancer SUCKS, but it isn't capable of wickedness - that requires sentience. Allowing evil to happen to others when one can prevent it - that's wicked. I cannot work out why intelligent people persist in pretending that being a god magically absolves an (almost certainly) imaginary being from being the repugnant, repulsive puppet-master that is exposed by its behaviour.

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Yes cancer SUCKS, but it isn't capable of wickedness - that requires sentience. Allowing evil to happen to others when one can prevent it - that's wicked.

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I cannot work out why intelligent people persist in pretending that being a god magically absolves an (almost certainly) imaginary being from being the repugnant, repulsive puppet-master that is exposed by its behaviour.

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I get Fuck cancer.
I get Fuck God for cancer.
I get (sort of) Fuck theodicy.
I do not get Fuck people's spirituality. It is part of their being, their intactness. I see a lot of death from cancer. I wouldn't underestimate the value of spirituality*.

*Spirituality may or may not correspond with religion.

And I am over cancer. Too many, too young, too incessant.

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

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Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I'm seriously interested in why intelligent people believe things that, to me, are irrational - after all it could be me that's wrong.

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Getting the feeling that your belief in the statement 'it could be me that's wrong' is not entirely sincere.

And why interested only in what 'intelligent' people believe? By whose classification is 'intelligent' being defined? And are the 'unintelligent' (eg, those of a lower IQ) of less worth in terms of their value judgements and articles of faith/non-faith?

Don't get me wrong. I share some of your questioning. Many people of faith express exactly the same doubts and conflicts. Many people lose their faith because of experiences with illness. In fact, I'd go so far to say that 'intelligent' people of faith ought to be severely tested in their belief in a good God by such things, if they have any depth to their faith at all.

But I do smell the farty hint of an 'if you're supposed to be so smart how come you're stupid enough to believe in obvious crap' seeping out of some of the corners of your post. Having serious and conscientious efforts at holding one's life together in the face of the death of loved ones labelled as 'usually pretending' and then qualifying this with the further comment that believers are even too stupid to know they're pretending to themselves is just all kinds of wrong.

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Originally posted by Patdys:
There are two threads in Hell that for me are prayer threads*. One is the cancer thread and the other the black dog. I believe we are allowed to yell at God and that that can be prayer. The God I want relationship with says 'Cancer is shit' right alongside me and understands when I say 'WTF God?'.

I hate seeing those threads derailed.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
I think if you want undiluted support, you should stick with All Saints. You post in Hell, you paint a target on your back.

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by Patdys:
There are two threads in Hell that for me are prayer threads*. One is the cancer thread and the other the black dog. I believe we are allowed to yell at God and that that can be prayer. The God I want relationship with says 'Cancer is shit' right alongside me and understands when I say 'WTF God?'.

I hate seeing those threads derailed.

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I think if you want undiluted support, you should stick with All Saints. You post in Hell, you paint a target on your back.

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Originally posted by Patdys:
BTW, HughWillRidmee has not read his PM's since I posted this thread, so this may sink into the depths unrecognised.

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Originally posted by Patdys: The word 'pretending' to me suggests that people are knowingly and deliberately making shit up. That’s probably because you think we have “free will”. The experimental evidence says that we make inevitable decisions in our subconscious and then tell our conscious mind what is already decided.

Don't tell me I'm making shit up, when it comes to my understanding of the world. Why not – it’s true. We (you, me, everyone) do “make shit up” – it’s a coping mechanism. Our understanding of the world is made up – some of it is made up accurately and some of it isn’t. If it wasn’t made up we’d all have the same understanding. I doubt, for most of us, that much of it is known to be imaginary when we first think it, sometimes subsequent events may force us to realise we got things wrong. We look for patterns and try to adapt our understanding of situations to something we are already familiar with – just an extension of the system that enables us to see a famous face in a piece of toast. We tell ourselves stories by inventing links to fill in the gaps of our recollection and call it memory (not just call it memory, we believe with utter conviction that we have a complete blow-by-blow account) – we pretend we remember things we don’t, but it isn’t (usually) deliberate (as in a conscious fabrication) – it’s how the brain works given its limited resources and processing power.

Had I meant what you inferred I’d probably have said that they lied.

To me your post comes across as trite and smug when I read it. Fair enough. I thought it passionate and restrained.

And it does not describe my God. My God cries with the lady in the coffee-shop. My God cries with the tears I see daily. so would the one I grew up with – but he allowed/permitted/enabled and knew in advance that he would cry and do nothing. He probably cried for every child that starved to death in Biafra and Ethiopia, but he didn’t provide food (or limit fertility). You know it and I know it – we draw differing conclusions. I don’t think your God is bad, or mad - I conclude that he doesn’t exist because the alternative is unthinkable. To me it is the only rational explanation. To a convinced believer the non-existence of god(s) is not an option: I don’t understand how it is possible to maintain that faith – presumably because I couldn’t.

FWIW, My prayers are with you also, you 6'1'' 180 pound agnostic, frustrated stage 4, cancer fighter. And I support you in WTF? To whoever/whatever you wish?

Lets talk. Thank you for your reaction. As to your prayers, I appreciate the concern that drives them. I’ve a few years yet and medical research is ongoing, so my demise is probably not imminent. That said, knowing that I’ve probably fewer years than I’d expected based on my parents’ longevity focuses the mind.

Coming from my background I know that I have, in some ways, underachieved. My expectations as a child were limited and my growth as a human being shackled by the baleful presence of an unseen overseer. I also see family, friends and neighbours whose talents and abilities have been, as I see it, stifled by a focus on their (totally unevidenced) soul’s reward at the expense of the lives of those around them, even their own family members. I try to ensure that as few as possible present and future children have their talents controlled, manipulated or negated by adherence to irrational beliefs and dogma.

You’re right I am a fighter, but my opponent is not cancer; as far that’s concerned I do what those who should know better than I advise, so far it’s worked OK: my fight is with anything/anyone that burdens those who are unable to resist their oppressors. That seems terribly noble doesn’t it? – it isn’t – it’s a part of me I can’t control. I recently remonstrated with a large and loud lady who shoved others out of her way on an Italian railway station; I listen to people who are usually ignored. I’ve morphed from active trade unionist (in the 1970s) to being a low level awkward sod when frustrating bullies or irritating management by attempting to avoid unnecessary confusion amongst the scared and the lost at my local hospital.

I’ve had a very fortunate life; I’m part of possibly the luckiest non-elite group ever seen – a group that has just consigned their grandchildren to a frighteningly uncertain future in pursuit of an impossible dream; largely because they weren’t able/educated to separate bulls**t from reason. I genuinely believe that all superstitious belief is, on balance, harmful to humanity and the world we live in – in extremis the sort of stupidity that converts the denial of human involvement in global warming to a conviction that it will hasten the second coming because a particular version of god(s) won’t be done out of an orgy of destruction which it has been anticipating for a few thousand years. So fuck the future and those who will have to inhabit it – we’re not giving up our hard-won victimhood for anyone.

I will pray both with and alongside those screaming fuck you. my mother would have suggested that you should also be praying for them – she had god-given ideas about people who used bad language!

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Originally posted by Patdys:
BTW, HughWillRidmee has not read his PM's since I posted this thread, so this may sink into the depths unrecognised.
I’m a little surprised you didn’t follow up on this, maybe you haven’t read my reply?

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Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
That’s probably because you think we have “free will”. The experimental evidence says that we make inevitable decisions in our subconscious and then tell our conscious mind what is already decided.

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Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Although I subsequently found out that I was somewhat off-target I imagined M sitting in a dilapidated rocking-chair, carefully situated as far away from the rest of the verandah’s users as was possible, muttering comparisons between her childhood and the behaviour of today’s over-indulged great-grandkids whilst the needles constantly clacked, working on the triangular scarf that would be unravelled tonight in order to provide her with a reason for waking up tomorrow, I know I’m mistaken, but somehow the image persists.

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If you ever saw the Maureen O'Hara movie "Sally & St. Anne", that might be why the image persists. Sally's grandpa is (unnecessarily) bedridden, and knits all the time. Says he'll die when he finishes what he's knitting. So Sally unravels it, whenever he isn't looking.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
She's a he.

PS could you please please please learn how to use UBB? It can't be too hard; Christians can do it.

[ 07. July 2016, 03:09: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
mt--

LOL re UBB and Christians! But we've got an edge: if we can cope with the Bible Code in our King James Version Bibles, then UBB is a snap!

 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
GK
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
The issue of theodicy is indeed a big problem for Christianity and a very understandable reason for leaving the faith: particularly if (as Hugh said above) it was a real burden.

Scientifically, theologically and philosophically it does not mean God does not exist. (I've found anti-theodicy also quite helpful in this area).

It does mean however that some might decide God is not a loving God as Christianity proclaims. And hey, fair enough. Life can be shit. It is an affective and emotional conclusion but not one without merit. Perhaps it's easier to deal with suffering if there is no meaning or ultimate hope to it.

But it's certainly easier to rail against the perceived fabrications of others (to create meaning) than at nothing at all.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

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Originally posted by Evensong:
But it's certainly easier to rail against the perceived fabrications of others (to create meaning) than at nothing at all.

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The word 'pretending' to me suggests that people are knowingly and deliberately making shit up

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That’s probably because you think we have “free will”. The experimental evidence says that we make inevitable decisions in our subconscious and then tell our conscious mind what is already decided.

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I cannot work out why intelligent people persist in pretending

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And it does not describe my God. My God cries with the lady in the coffee-shop. My God cries with the tears I see daily.

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so would the one I grew up with – but he allowed/permitted/enabled and knew in advance that he would cry and do nothing. He probably cried for every child that starved to death in Biafra and Ethiopia, but he didn’t provide food (or limit fertility). You know it and I know it – we draw differing conclusions. I don’t think your God is bad, or mad - I conclude that he doesn’t exist because the alternative is unthinkable. To me it is the only rational explanation. To a convinced believer the non-existence of god(s) is not an option: I don’t understand how it is possible to maintain that faith – presumably because I couldn’t.

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I will pray both with and alongside those screaming fuck you.

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my mother would have suggested that you should also be praying for them – she had god-given ideas about people who used bad language!

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
But it's certainly easier to rail against the perceived fabrications of others (to create meaning) than at nothing at all.

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By the "perceived fabrications of others" do you mean "straw men"?

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My understanding of this is..

It is easier to rail against the others who proclaim a God you do not believe in, and their created God, than to rail against nihilism.
But it is Evensong after all and I may have misunderstood her. It has been known to happen.
 

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
Oi! I'm the Epitome of Clarity!

And yes. wot Patyds said mousey

p.s. You're terrible at this hell business Patyds. Far too civilised and Christian.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

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Originally posted by Evensong:
Oi! I'm the Epitome of Clarity!

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Then Clarity is vastly overrated.
 

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Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
I would expect the epitome of clarity to get my name right...
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
Late to this very interesting thread - I tend to forget to look at Hell and. in any case I'm catching up after being away.

I'm very much with HughWillRidMee's views on atheism and reasons for it; also, of course, I wish him well with his treatment, which scientists continue to improve.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Next at 11: Onenote Sally trots out her hobbyhorse.

In other news, you won't believe what this bear was seen doing in the woods!

[ 11. July 2016, 13:52: Message edited by: Ariston ]
 

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Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
Saying Grace?
 

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