Ship of Fools: Blasted caravan accidents

Thread: Blasted caravan accidents Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Just what is the law regarding someone hitching up a caravan, jackknifing on a dual carriageway or motorway, and causing horrendous fuckin tailbacks ?

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Why do I get the feeling you're posting this from a traffic jam?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Murphy's Law?

Never a dull moment on the A34.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Ha ha, good shout LC.
No, it was a mega whinge from a work colleague who treated himself to a day off yesterday. Took a journey up the M5. Did it in 2 hours going up, as normal, and over double that on the return due to a caravan accident. And that was evening time.

A lorry driver friend said some time back that he'd seen accident after accident involving badly driven, or badly set up caravans and this goes back years. Nothing seems to have changed. The insurance ought to sky high on these fuckers, taking into account loss of earnings to businesses and cost to emergency services.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

Used to be, towing any trailer you were limited to 50. Now it's 60, and I reckon (since all modern cars are quiet and powerful, compared to towing with a Mk2 Escort, Viva etc) that folks easily accelerate with the traffic and forget their load is there, until it tries to overtake them.

What to do? Insist on a damper between load and hitch for all large trailers? Lower the speed limit again?

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I've only ever seen one caravan accident, and it was very saddening, seeing people's life scattered across the road - I know it's only holiday life, but it was so personal.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

U-Haul (an American van and trailer rental company) paints reminders on the wheel-wells of their trailers, visible from the side-view mirror of the driver, that the maximum allowable towing speed is 55 MPH.

I don't think I have ever seen someone on a highway with one of those things actually going less than 70. (Maybe not that fast, but you'd be run off the road going 55 on most highways these days.)

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

About 5 years ago, the provincial government made a special endorsement on a driving licence a requirement for towing things over some small weight and size. Is that required there? Probably should be.

Posted by rufiki (# 11165) on :

In the UK you do indeed need a special endorsement on your license to tow heavier trailers. But only if you passed your test since 1997.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

What to do? Insist on a damper between load and hitch for all large trailers? Lower the speed limit again?

Prosecute people who drive like knobheads.

And I mean an actual prosecution, not the 3-points-and-a-slap-on-the-wrist that many people accept as an occupational hazard of driving their cars.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Yep,that sounds about right re. recent changes.
And of course the problem being people retire, fancy trying out a caravan for the first time and are well outside that bracket, along with memories of roads being tamer places.

I have never driven on fast roads with a heavy trailer but imagine the problem comes when someone in front of you does something unexpected, foot goes on the brake then.....wriggle and Wallop !

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

They phased in the requirement for an endorsement over 5 years. Now you cannot tow one without, or they will impound it for 30 days, and I think the towing vehicle as well.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:

I have never driven on fast roads with a heavy trailer but imagine the problem comes when someone in front of you does something unexpected, foot goes on the brake then.....wriggle and Wallop !

This is usually because you are too close to the car in front. Nobody leaves enough space anyway, but if you're towing a trailer, you need to leave more space than you would otherwise.

As we all know, every time you try to leave adequate space in front of you on the motorway/interstate/autobahn/whatever, some other idiot moves in to it.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

On the N Devon link road around 2003 (I think) the Police stopped all the caravans. Some 85% were found to be breaking the law in some way. It's a big problem.

Solutions ....
1. Caravans like Goods vehicles should be restricted to road travel between the hours of 7pm and 6 am. Less accidents as there's less traffic

2. Anyone with a caravan to pass a test every 5 years (towing anything even with anti snake changes road handling)

3. Higher fines for exceeding a 55 mph limit on speed

4. Road Tax as a commercial vehicle (more axles)

5. All caravans to be painted green by law. No one would like that and hence not buy them. Problem solved.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Some years ago I was at a meeting when a well-respected Baptist theological college started his talk by claiming that caravans had been invented by the devil! Of course he had his tongue firmly in his cheek but most of us present immediately thought of the frustrations of being caught behind cars towing caravans on some of our single-lane roads to the coast.

However we was making the serious point that many of the members of his former church used to go off in them for months at a time from April to October and that this was highly detrimental to maintaining a sense of congregational life and purpose. (Of course he could have said the same thing about country cottages, sailing dinghies, or even grandchildren!) But he did ask us to think whether our Christian commitment and discipline might sometimes involve saying, “For the sake of Christ and his Church I won’t go away this weekend; I’ll use that time and money to benefit his Kingdom”.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

However we was making the serious point that many of the members of his former church used to go off in them for months at a time from April to October and that this was highly detrimental to maintaining a sense of congregational life and purpose. (Of course he could have said the same thing about country cottages, sailing dinghies, or even grandchildren!) But he did ask us to think whether our Christian commitment and discipline might sometimes involve saying, “For the sake of Christ and his Church I won’t go away this weekend; I’ll use that time and money to benefit his Kingdom”.

Wrong on so many levels it isn't even worth trying to list them.

A neat way to encapsulate all that is wrong with the baptist mindset.

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
On the N Devon link road around 2003 (I think) the Police stopped all the caravans. Some 85% were found to be breaking the law in some way. It's a big problem.

Solutions ....
1. Caravans like Goods vehicles should be restricted to road travel between the hours of 7pm and 6 am. Less accidents as there's less traffic

2. Anyone with a caravan to pass a test every 5 years (towing anything even with anti snake changes road handling)

3. Higher fines for exceeding a 55 mph limit on speed

4. Road Tax as a commercial vehicle (more axles)

5. All caravans to be painted green by law. No one would like that and hence not buy them. Problem solved.

Please tell me where I may cast my vote in favour of this.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

However we was making the serious point that many of the members of his former church used to go off in them for months at a time from April to October and that this was highly detrimental to maintaining a sense of congregational life and purpose. (Of course he could have said the same thing about country cottages, sailing dinghies, or even grandchildren!) But he did ask us to think whether our Christian commitment and discipline might sometimes involve saying, “For the sake of Christ and his Church I won’t go away this weekend; I’ll use that time and money to benefit his Kingdom”.
Wrong on so many levels it isn't even worth trying to list them.

A neat way to encapsulate all that is wrong with the baptist mindset.

OK, I'll bite. What's right about lots of empty chairs in a church because large part of the congregation are pulling a plastic hut on wheels at the front of a queue of traffic? What's good about a church not being able to find the people to run a kids summer club, make tea for the near-house-bound ladies who meet each week in the hall? Why should members of a church consider their weekends to be "their time" to do with what they want, rather than God's time for which they are stewards?

[ 07. October 2016, 08:23: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
On the N Devon link road around 2003 (I think) the Police stopped all the caravans. Some 85% were found to be breaking the law in some way. It's a big problem.

Solutions ....
1. Caravans like Goods vehicles should be restricted to road travel between the hours of 7pm and 6 am. Less accidents as there's less traffic

2. Anyone with a caravan to pass a test every 5 years (towing anything even with anti snake changes road handling)

3. Higher fines for exceeding a 55 mph limit on speed

4. Road Tax as a commercial vehicle (more axles)

5. All caravans to be painted green by law. No one would like that and hence not buy them. Problem solved.
Please tell me where I may cast my vote in favour of this.

One of you is Jeremy Clarkson and I claim my five pounds.

Tubbs

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
OK, I'll bite. What's right about lots of empty chairs in a church because large part of the congregation are pulling a plastic hut on wheels at the front of a queue of traffic?

Well on at least one level, one might say that the fact people are using their caravans rather than sitting in pews says something more about the inflexibility of the church than the people.

One can see this as a problem or an opportunity. Of course, the majority of baptist churches are totally inflexible with regard to only having 11am services on a Sunday, so it is easier just to blame people.

quote:
What's good about a church not being able to find the people to run a kids summer club, make tea for the near-house-bound ladies who meet each week in the hall?

Well there's nothing good exactly about those things, but it seems rather random to pin them on people who like caravaning rather than - for example - people who follow a football team.

Why should a congregation support something just because it has been going for donkeys years? Why should those who go caravanning be made to feel more responsible than those who spend all their time at work or on overseas working trips?

quote:
Why should members of a church consider their weekends to be "their time" to do with what they want, rather than God's time for which they are stewards?

Weekends are no more or less holy than any other time. And herein is the problem: trying to press everyone into the same mould which ends up being a kind of morality test as to how you spend your time on a Sunday morning.

Funnily enough, people have different lives today.

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

Sorry to burst your bubble of self-righteousness, mr cheesy, but from experience it doesn't work like that.

Years ago (before I became minister), one of our Deacons recognised that a number of our church members were going away to their caravans at the weekend and so weren't at church and, as far as he was aware, weren't going to any church. So he began a monthly midweek Communion service on a Thursday evening for the so-called "Caravan Clubbers", so that they could still have a time of fellowship with other church members and worship together.

At first, AFAIK, quite a few of them did. And now, how many of them come? None. Not one. Why not? Because they're all retired now and go to their caravans during the week. The people who come to this service are now the ones who come to every service.

A small-ish church like ours simply can't keep adding more services, doing more stuff at different times, especially when our church building is in use by other groups most of the week and especially when it's a relatively small group of people who go caravanning.

And while I accept the point about "Sunday mornings not being great for everyone", all of the Caravanners are long-standing members of the church who've been coming on Sundays all their lives. So it's not like they want to come to church but can't because it's at a bad time: they've intentionally chosen to make themselves unavailable on a Sunday morning.

And as for it saying something about the "baptist mindset", there's no such thing as a "baptist mindset". So fuck off with your gros generalisations.

[ 07. October 2016, 08:53: Message edited by: Stejjie ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
On the N Devon link road around 2003 (I think) the Police stopped all the caravans. Some 85% were found to be breaking the law in some way. It's a big problem.

Solutions ....
1. Caravans like Goods vehicles should be restricted to road travel between the hours of 7pm and 6 am. Less accidents as there's less traffic

2. Anyone with a caravan to pass a test every 5 years (towing anything even with anti snake changes road handling)

3. Higher fines for exceeding a 55 mph limit on speed

4. Road Tax as a commercial vehicle (more axles)

5. All caravans to be painted green by law. No one would like that and hence not buy them. Problem solved.

Alternative solution. Stop being so bloody impatient.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Sorry to burst your bubble of self-righteousness, mr cheesy, but from experience it doesn't work like that.

That's nice. Obvs because your experience is different to mine then you are obviously right.

quote:
At first, AFAIK, quite a few of them did. And now, how many of them come? None. Not one. Why not? Because they're all retired now and go to their caravans during the week. The people who come to this service are now the ones who come to every service.

A small-ish church like ours simply can't keep adding more services, doing more stuff at different times, especially when our church building is in use by other groups most of the week and especially when it's a relatively small group of people who go caravanning.

Then you deserve to close because you are not meeting the erstwhile needs of the congregation.

quote:
And while I accept the point about "Sunday mornings not being great for everyone", all of the Caravanners are long-standing members of the church who've been coming on Sundays all their lives. So it's not like they want to come to church but can't because it's at a bad time: they've intentionally chosen to make themselves unavailable on a Sunday morning.

Maybe they've just had enough of the self-righteous attitude of those who say that they can't do what they want with their time in retirement. Maybe they feel that they've done their bit over decades.

quote:
And as for it saying something about the "baptist mindset", there's no such thing as a "baptist mindset". So fuck off with your gros generalisations.

Bullshit. You're just displaying it once again: church is what happens on Sunday morning, if you can't conform to that pattern, then we'll blame you for the fact that we're culturally illiterate.

[ 07. October 2016, 09:05: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

You missed the main point of my post: we tried putting on a service at a different time for those who chose not to be there and they stopped coming to that as well. You can't keep starting new services for people who choose not to come to the existing ones, every church has its limits as to what it can provide for people. Sooner or later, you have to say "This is the situation, these are the services: we're genuinely sorry if you can't make them, but this is as much as we can do".

And what "erstwhile congregation"? Our Sunday congregation is OK; bit low at times, but generally not bad for a church of our size. The point is we miss those who choose to come on a Sunday.

And yes, the caravanners might be saying "we've done our bit". But that just puts more onus on the ones who are left here, who have no caravan, most of whom are of a similar age or older to the caravanners. They keep having to do more than their bit.

And as for we "deserve to close" - you know nothing about my church, nothing. I could list all the stuff we do for others in our community and beyond, stuff that should be beyond a church of our size and make-up; all the people we help, all the causes we've raised money for, given space to in our church, given space to in our services to tell us what we do; all the people we serve a decent cup of tea or coffee and a bacon toastie in our thrice-weekly cafe, staffed by people who do it out of pure care and love for the customers who come in. I could tell you about the people who come to the cafe who are proud to call our church "their church" and who are dear friends of ours, even though we don't see them on Sundays. I could tell you about how our Baptist Regional Minister praises us for the stuff we do, even when we're down on ourselves for thinking we don't do enough.

But sure, we deserve to close because a small church like ours can't keep putting on extra services for people who could come to the others, but choose not to, even when we've made the effort to try and meet their needs. You know best.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
QUOTE]OK, I'll bite. What's right about lots of empty chairs in a church because large part of the congregation are pulling a plastic hut on wheels at the front of a queue of traffic? What's good about a church not being able to find the people to run a kids summer club, make tea for the near-house-bound ladies who meet each week in the hall? Why should members of a church consider their weekends to be "their time" to do with what they want, rather than God's time for which they are stewards? [/QB]

Well, God's time is everywhere, and we have to be stewards wherever we happen to be. Which could be in the middle of a traffic jam, even one which we caused.
[Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Stejjie--

Question: did the deacon who started the midweek service *ask* the caravaners what they wanted?

Has anyone ever asked them? Not clear from your post.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
God's time is everywhere, and we have to be stewards wherever we happen to be.

Which is, of course, true. I only said weekends because the context was one of people not being in church because they chose to take their caravans out every weekend.

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Stejjie--

Question: did the deacon who started the midweek service *ask* the caravaners what they wanted?

Has anyone ever asked them? Not clear from your post.

Good question and I don't know the answer because I wasn't there. I presume so since at first the people it's aimed at did come.

And I should also add that the service is "up for review" so to speak due to the numbers (not) coming; but any change will be a replacement for, not an addition to that service

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Well on at least one level, one might say that the fact people are using their caravans rather than sitting in pews says something more about the inflexibility of the church than the people.

One can see this as a problem or an opportunity. Of course, the majority of baptist churches are totally inflexible with regard to only having 11am services on a Sunday, so it is easier just to blame people.

It's not a matter of inflexibility, as evidenced by the number of churches that attempt alternatives. But, when it comes down to it it is vital that, as far as possible, the church in a given location gather together on a regular basis. So, even if it was practical to organise multiple services at different times in the work this would be an imperfect approach unless it was possible for the whole church to gather on at least one of those occasions. And, it can't be denied that it's a lot easier for the church to gather on a Sunday morning than it is midweek - at least in the UK where society is still largely organised around having Saturday and Sunday as breaks from work.

quote:
Why should those who go caravanning be made to feel more responsible than those who spend all their time at work or on overseas working trips?

Well, it of course isn't just caravanners. There are lots of pressures on our Sundays as society changes. Despite a love of walking, I've never joined a walking club precisely because I've never found one that doesn't go out exclusively on Sundays. The church suffers when it is unable to gather regularly. Picking up on the analogy of Paul, a body doesn't function if the arm decides it should stay in bed or bugger off in the caravan when the rest of the body gathers. There will always be people absent when the body gathers - some who are too ill to attend, some who will take a holiday occasionally etc. The problem comes when a large proportion of the congregation regularly choose to do something else on a Sunday - in the instance cited it happened to be taking the caravan out for the weekend was the dominant "something else" for that congregation.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Stejjie--

Then, if I may suggest, check with as many of the caravaners as you can before going any further with the review process. The results will help the deciders make a wiser decision.

If you're feeling really brave [Biased]

, have an informal congregational meeting, and find out if the congregation want/need any other changes. Would be opening a can of worms, but it could also be a chance to repair aspects of the community and your church's system.

FWIW, YMMV.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Well, it of course isn't just caravanners. ... The church suffers when it is unable to gather regularly. Picking up on the analogy of Paul, a body doesn't function if the arm decides it should stay in bed or bugger off in the caravan when the rest of the body gathers. ... The problem comes when a large proportion of the congregation regularly choose to do something else on a Sunday - in the instance cited it happened to be taking the caravan out for the weekend was the dominant "something else" for that congregation.

Which was precisely the point the Respected Baptist Leader had been making; he wasn't "attacking" caravanners specifically, just using them to make his point in a semi-humorous way.

I am amazed to see how my post seems to have "struck a nerve"!

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

However we was making the serious point that many of the members of his former church used to go off in them for months at a time from April to October and that this was highly detrimental to maintaining a sense of congregational life and purpose.

We have several retired members of our congregation who spend the winters somewhere warm. They're here in the summer (singing in the choir, volunteering with the children, and so on) and in the winter they're somewhere else.

And that's OK, but is a rather different proposition from the person who isn't making time for church.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

However we was making the serious point that many of the members of his former church used to go off in them for months at a time from April to October and that this was highly detrimental to maintaining a sense of congregational life and purpose.
We have several retired members of our congregation who spend the winters somewhere warm. They're here in the summer (singing in the choir, volunteering with the children, and so on) and in the winter they're somewhere else.

And that's OK, but is a rather different proposition from the person who isn't making time for church.

Same here in Arizona -- but reversed. I don't know where you live, Leorning Cniht, but your parishioners may well be the "snow bird" parishioners we're looking forward to returning soon. Many of them are active members of our congregation from late autumn until around Easter, though their homes are in the northern U.S. or Canada.

Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
...
Solutions ....
1. Caravans like Goods vehicles should be restricted to road travel between the hours of 7pm and 6 am. Less accidents as there's less traffic....

Which means all stores / offices / schools / wholesalers / retailers / couriers and postal services / landfills / factories / construction sites / etc. would have to have staff around to dispatch and receive deliveries between 7 pm and 6 am. Your new refrigerator will be delivered next Tuesday at 3:30 am. You'll be home, right?

Dummy.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

I also shudder to think of them only driving at night -- around here anyway, that's when so many accidents occur because of all the drunks on the road, including quite a few who drive the wrong way on our freeways.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
not the 3-points-and-a-slap-on-the-wrist that many people accept as an occupational hazard of driving their cars.

"You are an habitual knobhead, who accepts 3 points as an occupational hazard".

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
"You are an habitual knobhead, who accepts 3 points as an occupational hazard".

Ronnie Barker must surely have done a sketch towing a caravan at some point, mustn't he? He'd have done it very well.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I don' know. "Top Gear" of course did "The Caravan Train".

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I don' know. "Top Gear" of course did "The Caravan Train".

Ronnie Barker wasn't a knobhead though ...

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Indeed not ...

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Google informs me that there was an episode of the Navy Lark entitled "The Curious Caravan Case". But, I can't find it online anywhere to listen to, or even confirm if Barker was involved in that particular episode.

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :

Here you go, Alan. It's episode 134 on mp3 there, just scroll down. (In

(In this listing, without sound, it's mentioned as ep. 148.)

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:
Originally posted by passer:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
On the N Devon link road around 2003 (I think) the Police stopped all the caravans. Some 85% were found to be breaking the law in some way. It's a big problem.

Solutions ....
1. Caravans like Goods vehicles should be restricted to road travel between the hours of 7pm and 6 am. Less accidents as there's less traffic

2. Anyone with a caravan to pass a test every 5 years (towing anything even with anti snake changes road handling)

3. Higher fines for exceeding a 55 mph limit on speed

4. Road Tax as a commercial vehicle (more axles)

5. All caravans to be painted green by law. No one would like that and hence not buy them. Problem solved.
Please tell me where I may cast my vote in favour of this.
One of you is Jeremy Clarkson and I claim my five pounds.

Tubbs

He might be but I'm certainly not. Clarkson is in the same box as football and barbecues as far as I'm concerned: don't ever let them out. Football - 22 millionaires spoiling a lawn.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Football - 22 millionaires spoiling a lawn.

Well, perhaps not in the Thurlow Nunn Reserve League.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Football - 22 millionaires spoiling a lawn.
Well, perhaps not in the Thurlow Nunn Reserve League.

I agree nor in the Cambs FA League Division 5A where I played as a teenager

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