Ship of Fools: Clocks

Thread: Clocks Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

Grumble grumble...do we have to do this every year...grumble grumble...dark nights...grumble grumble...dark mornings...grumble grumble etc.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Oh, Praise Jesus, finally an original thread idea.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Unless you propose altering the axial tilt of the planet, those of us at more extreme latitudes will always have a season when the sun sets early and rises late (and, conversely, a season when it sets late and rises early). If you don't like dark nights and mornings in the winter, join the birds and head south (or north for our southern hemisphere friends).

Shifting the clocks around by an hour does nothing to change the amount of time the sun is above the horizon.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

We've got one more week to go. This Brit site had me in a panic that somehow I was going to be late? early? to church. Phooey! Back to bed!

[ 30. October 2016, 12:04: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I agree - leave the clocks ALONE!!

[Mad]

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Yeah, bloody clocks [Mad]

Controlling our lives like they do. Why not have a rant.

Hard to imagine when people weren't governed by numbers and dials, even Sun dials. Be a job to put them back an hour.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, Praise Jesus, finally an original thread idea.

Yes, I don't think we've had one of these before.

We get an extra hour in bed and people are complaining. There will be daylight tomorrow morning when I leave for work. [Yipee]

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Seriously, if you don't like dark mornings, get up an hour later. That's it. That's the only thing you can do. Otherwise, you're just a whiny mcwhineface.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Seriously, if you don't like dark mornings, get up an hour later. That's it. That's the only thing you can do. Otherwise, you're just a whiny mcwhineface.

That would be a whiny mcwhineface with a job that they're required to be at by a certain time, probably, but don't let that stop you expressing yourself. [Angel]

[ 30. October 2016, 12:48: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

But it doesn't need to be that way. The job can just say, "we'll open the office an hour later".

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Move to Arizona.
[Razz]

(O.K., our politics are batshit crazy, but there's always a trade-off.)

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The job can just say, "we'll open the office an hour later".

Good point. The only problem with that is that you'd probably have to stay an hour later and go home when it's dark, and with all these killer clowns on the loose, no responsible company is going to take the risk of endangering its staff.

Alternatively, people could attempt to work much faster during the limited hours of daylight so as to cram in the entire day's work into the shorter hours of winter daylight. Obviously, you'd be expected to work much more slowly in the summer.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But it doesn't need to be that way. The job can just say, "we'll open the office an hour later".

And if I were in charge that's exactly what would happen, but as I'm not, I enjoy going back to getting up at a reasonable hour every fall and curse Congress every March for screwing up my sleep pattern.

Must be nice being in charge of your own working hours, but many people aren't. Ger a fucking clue.

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, Praise Jesus, finally an original thread idea.

Well, usually it's people whining about it going the other way, so Totally Different.

Can we start complaining about Christmas yet?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Can we start complaining about Christmas yet?

Not until December 1st.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Ger a fucking clue.

I've got the t-shirt that goes with it. I'm north enough that I've gone to work in the dark and come home in the dark, because there isn't enough daylight in the day. No amount of clock shifting can fix that.

I can, however, enjoy my mousethief coolers on the patio up till around 11pm in summer. Swings and roundabouts. If I wanted consistency, I'd live on the equator.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, Praise Jesus, finally an original thread idea.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I agree - leave the clocks ALONE!!

Ooo, a bright spot in the thread. Now I have Pink Floyd running through my head.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

We don't need no stuuupid clock changes ...
We don't need no clock control ....
Hey, mister, leave those clocks alooooane ..
All in you're just another prick in the hall ...

Hey, mister - leave our clocks ALONE!

(please)

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Nice one Boogie [Smile]

5.45pm and pitch dark. This old Globe we've been given with it's tilted Axis malarkey, it just ain't right.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Greenwich Mean Time isn't messing around with our clocks. British Summer time is.

We can't change the numbers of hours of daylight. The further North you go, the less daylight you get in the winter, the more in the summer. All we can change is which time those hours are centred around. Here in Norfolk we get about 7.5 hours of daylight on December 21. In the Orkneys it's about 6.5 hours.

Under GMT in Norfolk on 21 December the sun rises at 8.15, sets at 3.45. For BST, add an hour on to each time.

Under GMT in Orkney on 21 December the sun rises at 8.45, sets at 3.15. For BST add an hour on to each time.

And you can work out your own patterns. Some parts of the UK may be better off keeping BST, others aren't. Arguments about school start and finish times, peak traffic times, start and finish work times are pretty useless. What the effects are just depends on where you live.

Personally I don't mind a government decision to move permanently to GMT+1 for the whole of the UK. But I think we should listen to the voices of the most inconvenienced and recognise that whatever happens is a question of balancing advantages and disadvantages.

We can't get round the 23 degree tilt in the earth's orbit.

[ 30. October 2016, 17:59: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

Arguments about school start and finish times, peak traffic times, start and finish work times are pretty useless. What the effects are just depends on where you live.

But those are the arguments. And you're right, of course, that they change depending on where you live, but schools only work in their current form if everyone goes at the same time, and everyone expects shops and businesses to be open during "normal" working hours.

The single question is where to place the "normal working hours" in relation to the period of daylight.

(My preference is for a customary time system that places the "normal waking time" at dawn, and counts on from there. You might have a different preference.)

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
We can't get round the 23 degree tilt in the earth's orbit.

No but we can quit fucking with the clock twice a year. It's hard on people. It serves no offsetting purpose. It's outlived its usefulness, if it ever had any. It's time it went the way of the victory garden and the war bond drive.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Move to Arizona.

(O.K., our politics are batshit crazy, but there's always a trade-off.)

True outside the corner of Arizona that belongs to the Navajo who do observe Daylight Savings Time. But you can opt out of Daylight Savings in the Hopi Res. "doughnut hole" in the middle of the Navajo Res. Confused now?

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Ger a fucking clue.
I've got the t-shirt that goes with it.

If you really think there are a lot of workplaces where they can just change the open/close times by an hour twice a year, you don't.

quote:
I'm north enough that I've gone to work in the dark and come home in the dark, because there isn't enough daylight in the day. No amount of clock shifting can fix that.

Bully for you. I live far enough south that there's enough daylight in the fall and spring for me to go to work and come home in daylight -- but I don't get to do that because the March time change comes too early and the November time change comes too late.

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No but we can quit fucking with the clock twice a year. It's hard on people. It serves no offsetting purpose. It's outlived its usefulness, if it ever had any. It's time it went the way of the victory garden and the war bond drive.

Could not agree more, but the barbecue and patio furniture industries have way more pull than you and me, so I'm not holding my breath.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

My personal preference is just to keep GMT all year round. Nothing is ever going to suit everybody anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's time it went the way of the victory garden and the war bond drive.

I'm assuming a victory garden is the same as an allotment - lots of people have those here and the waiting lists are months long, sometimes years long.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
My personal preference is just to keep GMT all year round. Nothing is ever going to suit everybody anyway.

Which is just the same as shifting the time zone one notch east.*

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's time it went the way of the victory garden and the war bond drive.
I'm assuming a victory garden is the same as an allotment - lots of people have those here and the waiting lists are months long, sometimes years long.

It was a thing during WW1 (and maybe WW2) where people grew veg for the war effort.

_____________
*or west. Whatevs.

[ 30. October 2016, 19:25: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Ger a fucking clue.
I've got the t-shirt that goes with it.
If you really think there are a lot of workplaces where they can just change the open/close times by an hour twice a year, you don't.

They choose not to. There's nothing stopping them. The Time Police aren't going to come around and tap their watches menacingly at the owners.

The whole country goes postal every time it get mentioned. "Oh," says the South, "it'd be lovely if we had more daylight." "Get to fuck," says the rest of the country, "It doesn't work like that."

I'm all for picking a time zone and sticking with it, but I'd like to point out when I flew from Chicago to Indianapolis, literally north to south, I had to change my watch yet again.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Heck, if I lived in California I'd agree with Ruth. Daylight length varies from 10 hours to 14 hours only. Doesn't matter whether you centre that time around noon or 1300.

But these things can get funny and complicated. Apparently there are places in Indiana where some counties observe Central Standard Time, others Eastern Standard time. There was also a Daylight Savings debate. Factors which led to great confusion for Josh, Toby and Donna in "20 hours in America" (West Wing Season 4).

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
They choose not to. There's nothing stopping them. The Time Police aren't going to come around and tap their watches menacingly at the owners.

Except they have to do business with all the other businesses, and unless they all switch together, it's going to fuck up their operations. So it's not as easy as you wish to portray it.

quote:
I'm all for picking a time zone and sticking with it, but I'd like to point out when I flew from Chicago to Indianapolis, literally north to south, I had to change my watch yet again.

Aw, do time zone boundaries not run north-south? [Waterworks]

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

If you need to alter the times when people do things in relation to the sun, then changing the clocks is an easy way to do it without requiring (e.g.) all the transport utilities to reprint all their timetables to reflect the alteration.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Except they have to do business with all the other businesses, and unless they all switch together, it's going to fuck up their operations. So it's not as easy as you wish to portray it.

I'm not portraying it as easy. I'm portraying it as possible.

quote:
Aw, do time zone boundaries not run north-south?

Mostly, yes. Because that's the way the world works. Except in Indiana, apparently.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Aw, do time zone boundaries not run north-south?
Mostly, yes. Because that's the way the world works. Except in Indiana, apparently.

And you can think of no reason, none whatsoever, why they might make an exception there?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Aw, do time zone boundaries not run north-south?
Mostly, yes. Because that's the way the world works. Except in Indiana, apparently.
And you can think of no reason, none whatsoever, why they might make an exception there?

I did ask. They just rolled their eyes and muttered about how they needed a new State governor.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Move to Arizona.

(O.K., our politics are batshit crazy, but there's always a trade-off.)

Move to Saskatchewan. Our politics are historically socialist, which is probably crazy according to the Arizonians. It's the winters which are crazy, which is of course why we are socialist - snuggling together to stay warm.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

It has to do in part with keeping Chicago's Indiana suburbs in the same time zone as Chicago, to make it easier for commuters. Not a good reason, perhaps, but it is a reason.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

I'm all for picking a time zone and sticking with it, but I'd like to point out when I flew from Chicago to Indianapolis, literally north to south, I had to change my watch yet again.

But you didn't fly literally north to south. You flew southeast. Indianapolis is about 75 miles east of Chicago.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Can we start complaining about Christmas yet?
Not until December 1st.

I saw an ad on television yesterday for ordering Christmas trees from a farm. Some shops have had Christmas merchandise available since August. Whine, whine.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

I'm all for picking a time zone and sticking with it, but I'd like to point out when I flew from Chicago to Indianapolis, literally north to south, I had to change my watch yet again.
But you didn't fly literally north to south. You flew southeast. Indianapolis is about 75 miles east of Chicago.

I was thinking that didn't sound quite right, but was too lazy to check a map.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I did ask. They just rolled their eyes and muttered about how they needed a new State governor.

Indiana does need a new Governor, but PLEASE not by having him become Vice President.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Except they have to do business with all the other businesses, and unless they all switch together, it's going to fuck up their operations. So it's not as easy as you wish to portray it.
I'm not portraying it as easy. I'm portraying it as possible.

Not possible for all the businesses too small to dictate terms to other businesses. Not possible for all the businesses that have to open at certain hours in order to maximize custom and profit. And certainly not possible for employees whose hours are determined by other people. I can't announce to my boss that I'm going to show up at 9 am after the time change in March simply because it doesn't suit me to get up an hour early.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Pigwidgeon--

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I did ask. They just rolled their eyes and muttered about how they needed a new State governor.
Indiana does need a new Governor, but PLEASE not by having him become Vice President.

We'd be happy to send you Arnold S. We're not using him anymore.
[Biased]

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

It is fairly obvious that humans in higher latitudes have to migrate in the winter season. Perhaps every village, town, city should have a sister village, town, city in a more hospitable clime. The population of Glasgow could move to its sister city Havana.

I did check where the equivalent location in the southern hemisphere (at least in latitude) would be, but, I doubt Tierra del Fuego would appeal.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

It's freaking freezing! You want something closer to the equator, not an equal latitude length away!

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

Global warming will fix that.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's freaking freezing! You want something closer to the equator, not an equal latitude length away!

I was thinking summer to summer. But 55 South is freezing everywhere even though plenty of sunlight in the summer (Glasgow should thank the Gulf Stream). While checking on sister/twin cities I get a feeling that some places overdo it. I mean I thought my town was overdoing it with 6 but Glasgow has 8 (and Havana has apparently 28 [including Mobile, Alabama]).

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Just checked - 55 south passes through the very southern tip of Sth America, and then some minor islets. A maritime latitude.

Glasgow is lucky to have the Gulf Stream to keep it as warm as it is - even with that, the climate's pretty awful.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Glasgow is lucky to have the Gulf Stream to keep it as warm as it is - even with that, the climate's pretty awful.

Well, thank you for your kind assessment of the climate here. We have summers which rarely get to stupid hot temperatures. We have winters that rarely get stupidly cold. We have mountains with cascading waterfalls and lochs, and snow in the winter. We have some storms, but rarely anything that causes damage. We don't have to worry about water shortages or wondering if it's ethically acceptable to water the lawn to keep it green.

You should come and visit. There are some good pubs where there is a very special climate reserved just for pompous asses who want to declare how awful the place is. You might be fortunate enough not to be greeted with a Glasgow kiss.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Glasgow is lucky to have the Gulf Stream to keep it as warm as it is - even with that, the climate's pretty awful.

Glasgow (a.k.a The Dear Green Place) has rain, lots and lots of rain, but it makes everything green and lush! Swings and roundabouts.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

Posted by Alan Cresswell:-

You might be fortunate enough not to be greeted with a Glasgow kiss.

Which is?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Glasgow kiss

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

Head butt.

[ 31. October 2016, 09:17: Message edited by: kingsfold ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

That's when they're being affectionate.

Have visited. Twice. You'd think I'd have learned the first time.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Glasgow kiss = headbutt.

There is no equivalent using an east-coast Scottish place name, on account of us east-coasters being altogether a more civilised species. [Biased]

Cross posted with everybody. Come to Aberdeenshire on your next visit GeeD; the rain falls softly and the countryside is green and fertile.

[ 31. October 2016, 10:14: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

No, no. I think he should go to Glasgow. He can displayed in the stocks outside of the Tolbooth steeple, with a print out of his earlier posts hung around his neck.

He'll be fine.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Back to the subject of clocks; schools here used to have a shorter day in winter than summer. That wouldn't work today, as most parents would need extra childcare if schools closed earlier.

The clocks changing suits me; the problem with dark mornings is that cars and buses are going to work / schools on roads that are both dark and icy; whereas by the time they return home it may be dark but it is less likely to be icy.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Think of the poor sods at the National Trust, running around moving all those stone circles round an hour.

And you think you've got problems.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I think you must mean English Heritage: the National Trust folk will be busy adjusting the sundials at all their stately houses.

And, of course, they have to do that at 2am which creates its own difficulties ...

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

And, of course, they have to do that at 2am which creates its own difficulties ...

The problem with the DST change is this abrupt one hour transition twice a year.

Clearly the real solution is for days in the spring to be a minute shorter than average, and for days in the autumn to be a minute longer.

Posted by Net Spinster (# 16058) on :

I must admit the last time I was in Scotland (Stirling), it was the middle of winter and I caught the flu. It did have a white Christmas even if I wasn't in much condition to enjoy it. The days were too short though. At least we aren't like Uranus with its axial tilt.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
Head butt.

A tautology. To butt means to hit with the horns or the head. On the other hand, you wouldn't want to say in current parlance that a Glasgow kiss is a butt, I suppose. Could make a bad situation worse.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
Head butt.
A tautology. To butt means to hit with the horns or the head.

No, it is not. "Butt" also means "a casket for wine or beer," as well as "the buttocks" as well as "the discarded end of a cigar or cigarette." Maybe more.

Specifying "head butt" lets you know which of these four (or more) is meant.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, no. I think he should go to Glasgow. He can displayed in the stocks outside of the Tolbooth steeple, with a print out of his earlier posts hung around his neck.

He'll be fine.

Not going back a 3rd time, sorry. First visit there was when I was but 14, on my first trip to Europe. My parents wanted to travel the West Highland line, and in steam days, that realistically meant an overnight stay in Glasgow. Mid-July you'd expect to be high summer, but 12 degrees, wet and miserable. A God forsaken part of the world, looking mid-depression rather than 1961. Then more recently, Madame and I stayed there on our way to take the Jacobite. Again July, wet and even colder.

Another post to hang around my neck.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:
Originally posted by kingsfold:
Head butt.
A tautology. To butt means to hit with the horns or the head.
No, it is not. "Butt" also means "a casket for wine or beer," as well as "the buttocks" as well as "the discarded end of a cigar or cigarette." Maybe more.

Specifying "head butt" lets you know which of these four (or more) is meant.

Also in joinery, a butt joint is where two pieces of wood are butted together, rather than cut to form some other kind of joint, or overlapped.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
]Not going back a 3rd time, sorry. First visit there was when I was but 14, on my first trip to Europe. My parents wanted to travel the West Highland line, and in steam days, that realistically meant an overnight stay in Glasgow. Mid-July you'd expect to be high summer, but 12 degrees, wet and miserable. A God forsaken part of the world, looking mid-depression rather than 1961. Then more recently, Madame and I stayed there on our way to take the Jacobite. Again July, wet and even colder.

Another post to hang around my neck.

So, you're basically clueless and afraid of a bit of weather?

At least, that's your tag for the next H&A day sorted out.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Can I object to the inclusion of "basically"?

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

You can basically object to basically whatever you want. But, basically, we basically don't have to listen to you being basically pompous.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Basically I basically agree - basically.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Just being clueless is OK by me.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

French photographer Raymond Depardon did a series of photos of Glasgow in the late 70s early 80s. I have the coffee table book version, but you can judge for yourselves here, basically.

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :

I scrolled through the lot. Strikes me as true as far as it goes, but also a very partial portrait of a city.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Glasgow's like much of the UK. It rains a lot, but that's the price we pay for not having weather that tries to kill us with any regularity. It's the price we pay for not having to put up with days on end of temperatures above 30C or below -10C.

I'd call that a bargain.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
French photographer Raymond Depardon did a series of photos of Glasgow in the late 70s early 80s. I have the coffee table book version, but you can judge for yourselves here, basically.

<swoon> I'm sure the city's changed since then, though?

I was in Glasgow once, just overnight, mostly in the dark. But I could tell I liked it. I really want to get back there and spend some time there.

Oh yeah, DST...

I hadn't thought much about most of Indiana being in the Eastern time zone. That makes it much less odd that Detroit is. I'd always heard that Henry Ford had something to do with that (wanting to be on the same time zone as the NYSE), but that's probably apocryphal. But it is always appropriate to bring up his name in Hell.

I'm looking forward to the clock change, for the extra hour of sleep. Then we can do away with it. I'm a night owl, though; I like the darkness. Plus electricity kinda makes it more of a moot point. Although I wonder - does either way (moving the clocks or not) end up with us consuming more energy?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

We spent a weekend in Glasgow - loved it.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

My last trip to Glasgow, in September, was to attend an event at the excellent Glasgow Women's Library on the theme of C18th Women and Education. This included a lunchtime concert of C18th music by students from the Glasgow Conservatoire.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Although I wonder - does either way (moving the clocks or not) end up with us consuming more energy?

This study indicates that changes to either BST all year (no clock change) or to align our clocks to CET (to BST in winter, double BST in summer) would reduce domestic energy consumption (we'd use less energy at home) but increase non-domestic energy consumption (businesses would use more energy) with an overall increase in energy use. The study doesn't appear to have considered GMT all year - but given that we consume more energy in winter when we are currently using GMT my guess would be that it would be a very small difference.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The study doesn't appear to have considered GMT all year

I surely can't be the only one here to be old enough to remember when this was trialled in the UK? Orange armbands for the walk to school proliferated as I recall.

[ 02. November 2016, 09:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

It was in the 1970s: and it wasn't GMT all year but BST all year - the clocks didn't go back.

There was widespread moaning from many about the dark mornings: this was not abated when figures collated by RoSPA showed that there were fewer RTAs involving child pedestrians by having people cope with the dark walk or cycle to work/school when they were more alert first-thing in the morning, rather than at the end of the day.

The potential benefits of having the chance of some daylight at the end of the day are huge. In particular, it will make outdoor sport and exercise more feasible and attractive, which surely should be seen as a priority given rocketing rates of obesity.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

For one I find it very hard to get up when it's still dark; I'm in deep sleep at that time and often sleep through alarms. It was like a breath of fresh air waking up in the light again this week.

I'm not convinced the extra light at the end of the day is much use for sports and recreation - it's still dark by the time you're back from work anyway. I'd be very surprised if a single inch were lost from a waistline anywhere simply by it only getting dark a bit before getting home from work instead of long before.

The only argument for year round BST that I have any truck with is the RTC one, although I personally think the best way of reducing RTCs is to address the cause - dangerous drives - and to take people's bloody licences off them when they show they don't deserve it, e.g. when they drive on the phone, when they pass cyclists with a fag paper clearance, where they drive at 30 on residential streets even though there are children around, because they're stupid enough to think that they're not doing anything wrong if they're within the speed limit. Because so many people are that stupid, 20 limits in built up areas might resolve that too.

[ 02. November 2016, 10:25: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
There was widespread moaning from many about the dark mornings: this was not abated when figures collated by RoSPA showed that there were fewer RTAs involving child pedestrians by having people cope with the dark walk or cycle to work/school when they were more alert first-thing in the morning, rather than at the end of the day.

There was a decrease in fatalities in England and the very south of Scotland, but an increase in fatalities in the majority of Scotland.

Of course, we could simply shift everything so that schools and businesses start at 9.30 in winter in Scotland, and finish correspondingly later.

The problem IMO isn't so much the dark mornings, but the fact that the coldest and iciest point in the day is at sunrise, when the earth starts to warm up. If the clocks don't go back, then all travel to school happens when the roads are at their iciest and least safe, and pavements are at their slippiest.

I don't know if this has been solved since my kids left school, but we had mornings when the school busses ran late / didn't run at all because their diesel froze. I'm assuming this is a solvable problem, but it was annoying when it happened. Again, not putting the clocks back would just add to the frozen diesel problem.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
we had mornings when the school busses ran late / didn't run at all because their diesel froze. I'm assuming this is a solvable problem

Why, yes. Very solvable.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

That is pretty much the scenario I envisaged when the council messaged parents that the school bus diesel was still defrosting. Although there were rumours that hot water bottles, strategically placed, were involved too. [Razz]

[ 02. November 2016, 12:12: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

I can remember some years ago being on holiday in Austria and the party's coaches' engines having to be kept running overnight so that the fuel heaters were kept operative as the outside temperatures were so extremely low (down to -25 ºC) that even winter grade diesel was getting too thick to use.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
That is pretty much the scenario I envisaged when the council messaged parents that the school bus diesel was still defrosting. Although there were rumours that hot water bottles, strategically placed, were involved too.

Why not one of these? Unheard of in central Arizona, but I've noticed places to plug them in in places like Alaska.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The potential benefits of having the chance of some daylight at the end of the day are huge. In particular, it will make outdoor sport and exercise more feasible and attractive, which surely should be seen as a priority given rocketing rates of obesity.

One of the arguments for why we don't turn the clocks ahead in Arizona is just the opposite. During the summer (i.e., late spring through early fall) it's too hot for much outdoor activity when the sun is out. Tennis courts, softball fields, etc., have artificial lights so they can be used when things cool off a bit.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:

I don't know if this has been solved since my kids left school, but we had mornings when the school busses ran late / didn't run at all because their diesel froze. I'm assuming this is a solvable problem, but it was annoying when it happened.

One wonderful morning, I managed to miss the whole of double French because the diesel had gelled in the cold. It wasn't at all annoying - the other kids were very envious of us "bus" types [Devil]

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

I am so happy the clocks are going back an hour because I never could figure out how to change my car clock since we went into day light saving time last spring. So every time I looked at the car clock I had to add an hour. So for the next 5 or 6 months the thing will be right.
The bad part is the dog. She gets totally confused. Her meal time, walk time and such is now screwed up and she knows it, and will be a pain to live with for at least two weeks until she adjusts. The Blue Jay that I feed each morning at 7 is also going to be messed up and I am sure to hear from him as well, as he wait in the tree just outside my bedroom window

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Graven Image

quote:
The bad part is the dog. She gets totally confused. Her meal time, walk time and such is now screwed up...

It is not the dog's meal times which are causing the confusion: it is you because you are sticking to a human clock, rather than carrying on to feed, water and walk at roughly the same time after dawn.

We humans have, by-and-large, lost the ability to live our lives according to the natural clock of daylight: sharing our lives with animals who haven't is bound to cause friction. Feed your animal when they want the food if at all possible and you'll both be happier.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... Mid-July you'd expect to be high summer, but 12 degrees ...

12 degrees is high summer. [Killing me]

I have to confess to not minding about the clock changes at all*. When I lived in Orkney, it was just part of life's rich tapestry that once the clocks went back, you'd be coming home from school/work in the dark - and in its way, it made it easier to start feeling festive (sorry about that [Hot and Hormonal]

).

Anyway, it was more than compensated for by the almost complete lack of darkness for a few weeks in the summer.

* I prefer the one where you get an extra hour's sleep, but I'm really OK with the spring one as well.

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I surely can't be the only one here to be old enough to remember when this was trialled in the UK? Orange armbands for the walk to school proliferated as I recall.

No you're not - I remember them too.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

As Pigwidgeon pointed out, we don't change the clocks in Arizona. So when I travel to California (PST) in the summer, I don't have to reset my watch from what it was in Phoenix (MST). In the winter, however, California is an hour behind us.

I really don't miss the time change -- don't even think about it -- although when I lived in New York I did enjoy the extra hour in the fall but always hated losing it again in the spring.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Grrr re changing the time on my cell. (Not a smart phone.) The setting is buried deep in the menu tree, with an unobvious title. Despite offering ways to change date and time *formats*, it wouldn't let me get to the time field it displayed! I finally noticed "DST" at the bottom of the screen, thought it might be "Daylight Savings Time", and selected it. DST disappeared without any message, and didn't change the time. I finally tried turning it off and on, and got a message that the time had been updated, as it turned out to be.

What a lot to go through to change the time by one hour!
[Mad]

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