Thread: Christmas music - oxymoron Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Why is all the Christmas music so crap? There are 3 tolerable Christmas songs:

I believe in Father Christmas. A little tinkly, but OK.

Fairytale. I can hear it a few times. I have had enough now this year.

Just like Christmas (by Low). You never hear it, of course, because it isn't crap.

And that is it. The rest - Slade, Wizzard, Maria, Wham - are crap and should never be played.

And then there are Christmas Carols. The only decent one is an advent carol (O Come O come). The rest can take a leap.

I have quite wide musical tastes, but there are limits. Like the Christmas drivel we are subjected to each year.

Can we just give up on all "music" for December?
 
Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on :
 
Oh I dunno, there's always Frank Turner's lofi effort:

(NB - monumentally unsafe for work or for small ears, or the easily offended) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW308CpEj1s

And if folk is your thing (it is mine) there's Kate Rusby's Christmas albums, Belshazzar's feast, everything on the Christmas folk session that BBC4 did a few years ago - Bellowhead, the Unthanks, etc etc etc...

Teen Emo has recently introduced me to My Chemical Romance's cover of All I want for Christmas, which is, er, special.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
The Little Drummer Boy is the only modern commerical Christmas tune that is any good. I agree, in general the genre is crap.

I'm not technically a Christian myself, but I think Christmas music only works well if it's religious. It's one of those things that just doesn't work when divorced from its original context. Like fairy-tales bowdlerized to remove all the violence.
 
Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
The Little Drummer Boy is the only modern commerical Christmas tune that is any good. I agree, in general the genre is crap.

I'm not technically a Christian myself, but I think Christmas music only works well if it's religious. It's one of those things that just doesn't work when divorced from its original context. Like fairy-tales bowdlerized to remove all the violence.

Little Drummer Boy is the worlds.worst.earworm. - no contest. I will leave a store if it comes on, otherwise I have it on internal repeat play for days and days, and if I want to listen to men singing while sounding like they've got their balls in a vice, I'll take this one instead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQhuoY5h2kE At least it's funny.

Also, Feliz Navidad can take a long, long hike.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Little Drummer Boy is the worlds.worst.earworm. - no contest.
Well, yeah, but I think that's because it's so entrancing.

quote:
Also, Feliz Navidad can take a long, long hike.

Agreed, hearing that one just makes me unspeakably depressed. But I think part of the problem for me is that I once watched a news report about a Christmas party for people whose relatives had been killed by drunk drivers, and you could hear them singing it in the background.

Obviously, I feel bad for people who have been through tragedy(including my own), but I'd prefer to avoid having to experience their get-togethers.
 
Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :
 
I like most Christmas music, but spare me from the horrors of the "shoe song"... "If Momma Meets Jesus tonight".
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
Ditto for Feliz Navidad

Anything by John Rutter

Have a Holly Jolly Christmas (Burl Ives)

Blue Christmas (Elvis Presley)
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
I listen to our local classical music station or to CDs, so I'm spared hearing this muck -- many songs mentioned here I've never even heard of.

Of course, I'm listening to Advent CDs for the next two weeks.
[Razz]
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I believe in Father Christmas. A little tinkly, but OK.

Fairytale. I can hear it a few times. I have had enough now this year.

Just like Christmas (by Low). You never hear it, of course, because it isn't crap.

I've never heard of any of those songs at all. Of course, given my opinions about most of what passes as Christmas music in popular culture, including other songs mentioned in the thread (Hell is the only appropriate place to talk about or hear "The Little Drummer Boy," IMHO), I think I'm okay with never having heard of them.

The only song that I actually long to hear at Christmas: Merry Christmas from the Family by Robert Earl Keen.
 
Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
The only other person I know who is aware of the Low's fabulous song.....
 
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
The Little Drummer Boy is the only modern commerical Christmas tune that is any good. I agree, in general the genre is crap.

I'm not technically a Christian myself, but I think Christmas music only works well if it's religious. It's one of those things that just doesn't work when divorced from its original context. Like fairy-tales bowdlerized to remove all the violence.

I agree except for Tim Minchin's brilliance in absolutely nailing Christmas in Australia, Drinking White Wine in the Sun, overtly anti-Christian but pretty much sums up 21st century Aussies sentimentality over Christmas.

White Wine in the Sun
 
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on :
 
For your listening pleasure
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
[Eek!]

John Rutter, eat your heart out.....

IJ
 
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
The only one that will cause me to stop shopping and walk quickly from the store is "Simply Having a Wonderful Christmas Time." I don't see how it manages to be so boring and so irritating at the same time.
 
Posted by Kittyville (# 16106) on :
 
I had the misfortune to be in the supermarket the other day while they were playing an Aussie version of The 12 Days of Christmas. Kookaburra in a gum tree, anyone? Mercifully, it stopped at "five kan-ga-roooos".
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
The worst about supermarket music is that they take these crap songs and squeeze any actual music out of them.

And, of course, this time of year, even more places are playing mindless drivel noise.
 
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The worst about supermarket music is that they take these crap songs and squeeze any actual music out of them.

Rather the like they do with the flavour of processed food.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Here is some Christmas music for those who dislike Christmas music.

Christmas at Ground Zero by Weird Al Yankovic


(Not for those of a nervous disposition, but this is Hell...)
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Silent Night in my Christmas bête-noirea A mournful, dirge-like melody spanning an 11th which is too wide for most non-singers to deal with easily or well. English lyrics (which can vary widely) dire and not metrically comfortable: Radiant beams from thy holy face is a case in point.

Holst's tune for In the bleak mid-winter is always dreadful: its not a good tune and the words don't fit - and that before some prissy lunatic changes the words to include the nonsensical line a heart full of mirth to avoid using the word "breast".

I could go on...

[ 10. December 2016, 09:53: Message edited by: L'organist ]
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Why is all the Christmas music so crap?

Because you're a joyless bastard who wouldn't know a fun tune if it slapped you in the face?

Every single year we get some miserable sod saying that the only good Christmas songs are the ones that say it's a horrible time of year. Well fuck off, OK? Most of us just want to enjoy the season in all its schmaltzy, cheesy, repetitive, sparkly wonder.

2016 has been a shit year, so can we please just have a few weeks at the end where we can have a good time with our family and friends without a bunch of glass-half-empty, ants-at-a-picnic buzzkillers trying to bring us down?
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The worst about supermarket music is that they take these crap songs and squeeze any actual music out of them.

And, of course, this time of year, even more places are playing mindless drivel noise.

But there is always the amusement when the jollity is broken up with 'Fairytale of New York' because it's on the same compilation CD and the staff don't realise what it's about ...
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The worst about supermarket music is that they take these crap songs and squeeze any actual music out of them.

And, of course, this time of year, even more places are playing mindless drivel noise.

Same all year tbh. Shops and stores take off-brand versions of the songs to minimise performance rights payments. The effect at anytime is poor recordings and performances of songs good and bad, but at Christmas the effect is magnified because more of the songs are so bloody awful in the first place.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Silent Night in my Christmas bête-noirea A mournful, dirge-like melody spanning an 11th which is too wide for most non-singers to deal with easily or well.

That's why God wrote the Episcopal Church's Hymnal 1982 with its accessible four-part harmonic settings.

quote:
Holst's tune for In the bleak mid-winter is always dreadful: its not a good tune and the words don't fit.
Can't agree. It's one of my favorites.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Silent Night in my Christmas bête-noirea A mournful, dirge-like melody spanning an 11th which is too wide for most non-singers to deal with easily or well. English lyrics (which can vary widely) dire and not metrically comfortable: Radiant beams from thy holy face is a case in point.

In recent years it has become "sacred tradition" -- at least in every church I know around here -- for Silent Night to be sung after Communion, while kneeling, in the dark (maybe with hand-held candles). Singing it twice as slowly as intended seems to add to the sentimentality of the occasion.
[Projectile]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Silent Night in my Christmas bête-noirea A mournful, dirge-like melody spanning an 11th which is too wide for most non-singers to deal with easily or well.

That's why God wrote the Episcopal Church's Hymnal 1982 with its accessible four-part harmonic settings.
What I dislike about Silent Night is the overrealized theological rectitude of the English translation. The original German focuses heavily (not entirely) on the humanity and materiality of the child. The "curly hair" ("lockigem Haar") doesn't make it into the English, for example. Specific, earthy. Earthy earthy earthy. Possibly wrong but that doesn't matter here.

The English so-called translation ditches that in favor of focusing on the deity of Christ. There's nothing earthy there. The point, I think of the celebration of Christmas, is the CARN part of the inCARNation. The flesh.

There will be other opportunities to celebrate his divinity. Just once, just one day a year for God's sake, let us celebrate his humanity, his like-us-ness, the fact that he has taken on OUR nature. God has a shitty diaper. Thanks be to God.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Silent Night in my Christmas bête-noirea A mournful, dirge-like melody spanning an 11th which is too wide for most non-singers to deal with easily or well.

It is much less dirge-like if it is accompanied (as it was originally) by a guitar rather than the organ, and not taken too slowly. That doesn't help the tessitura, though.
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Why is all the Christmas music so crap?

Because you're a joyless bastard who wouldn't know a fun tune if it slapped you in the face?
Very possible. But I do like fun music. Just not trite, same-again stuff.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
God has a shitty diaper.

And he does cry.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Silent Night in my Christmas bête-noirea A mournful, dirge-like melody spanning an 11th which is too wide for most non-singers to deal with easily or well. English lyrics (which can vary widely) dire and not metrically comfortable: Radiant beams from thy holy face is a case in point.

In recent years it has become "sacred tradition" -- at least in every church I know around here -- for Silent Night to be sung after Communion, while kneeling, in the dark (maybe with hand-held candles). Singing it twice as slowly as intended seems to add to the sentimentality of the occasion.
[Projectile]

We sing it with candles after communion, but standing in a circle at the walls of the nave. And we sing it (not too slowly) accompanied by guitar, not organ. (Whether the story that it was written because the organ was broken is true or not, it is a cautionary tale.) IMO, Silent Night always works best when sung somewhat like a ländler.

And some of us had God's harmony long before 1982, Miss Amanda. [Biased]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The worst about supermarket music is that they take these crap songs and squeeze any actual music out of them.

And, of course, this time of year, even more places are playing mindless drivel noise.

But there is always the amusement when the jollity is broken up with 'Fairytale of New York' because it's on the same compilation CD and the staff don't realise what it's about ...
Broadly similar to the experience of being at a YMCA Staff Christmas Party(in a country where the Y is mostly associated with middle-class suburban fitness clubs) and seeing everyone get up and dance to to the Village People's hymn to gay cruising.

[ 10. December 2016, 15:29: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
Discounting the supermarket Christmas trash songs, which I do absolutely, I suppose the beauty of much of the music is in the ear of the beholder. To my ear there few songs as lovely as "Child in the Manger", preferably sung unaccompanied in the original gaelic. My minister hates it. He can only stand that melody as he fondly remembers it being howled by some crapulous crooner from the 70s who puked up a stomach-heaving, but mercifully long forgotten, imitation of "Morning has Broken" to a viciously abused version of the same tune.
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
God has a shitty diaper. Thanks be to God.

Silent shite, holy shite ...
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I'm partial to the First Nowell.
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Christmas music from 'Messiah' is sublime.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'm not technically a Christian myself, but I think Christmas music only works well if it's religious. It's one of those things that just doesn't work when divorced from its original context.

In the British context, though, I think secular Christmas music fits in better with the spirit of the age.

Christmas carols about Jesus are good for stimulating nostalgia among older people, but many children and younger adults today no longer sing them. I suppose they make for nice background music.

As for Slade et al, I used to dislike them more than I do now. Maybe I find it easier to tune them out these days.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Christmas music from 'Messiah' is sublime.

I attended a lovely performance last night with the Phoenix Symphony and Chorus. Now I'm ready to face Christmas.
[Smile]
 
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on :
 
I worked in a supermarket to pay my way through sixth form. I lived with 9 months of something I think they called "ZZ Tops" and "Led Zepplin" and 3 months of a loop of "Drummer Boy", "Hark the herald" and "Sleigh Ride". I know how to switch off all auditory sense when I enter a supermarket.

Otherwise I would have gone postal before graduating.

Then, I worked for four years in a cathedral church where we had a carol service for every local school / the County Council / the County Constabulary / the County Fire Brigade / the County masons' lodges / the County Round Tables / the County Rotary Clubs / the County radio station / the City Council / you name it if it happened locally they turned up demanding a service. My personal record was the year I played a role in 13 carols services (excluding masses / matins / evensongs / carol services "belonging" to the cathedral community itself) between Advent Sunday and Christmas Eve.

By the time I left, I had become inured to Christmas. I'm not cynical about or loathing of Christmas music (surprisingly - although I much prefer Easter) but I am completely, utterly, totally, absolutely immune to it.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Holst's tune for In the bleak mid-winter is always dreadful: its not a good tune and the words don't fit

Hear, hear. Rossetti balanced out the sentimentality of the words with the astringency of the metre, like a dry gin. Holst's tune just accentuates the sentimentality, like pouring in half a litre of tonic and then adding sugar syrup to finish it off.
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
My favorite is "I wonder as I wander", sung a capella by a child soprano. I hate it sung by a trained adult voice.

The words are totally unsophisticated, and a trained voice ruins the effect.

I have not linked to a tune because all versions I can find are sung by trained adults.

Moo
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
My favorite is "I wonder as I wander" << snip >> I have not linked to a tune because all versions I can find are sung by trained adults.

Here is John Jacob Niles himself singing it.

The story of how Niles discovered the song is fascinating. If you expand the description under the clip you'll see the story.

[ 10. December 2016, 22:14: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
 
Posted by Egeria (# 4517) on :
 
Mousethief said:

quote:
Just once, just one day a year for God's sake, let us celebrate his humanity, his like-us-ness, the fact that he has taken on OUR nature. God has a shitty diaper. Thanks be to God.

There is a Latin American Christmas carol about this very thing--the lyrics have to do with Mary hanging out the diapers! Sorry I cannot provide more information. Where did I hear this? Might have been at our University's annual holiday concert, a few years ago.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Mousethief said:

quote:
Just once, just one day a year for God's sake, let us celebrate his humanity, his like-us-ness, the fact that he has taken on OUR nature. God has a shitty diaper. Thanks be to God.

There is a Latin American Christmas carol about this very thing--the lyrics have to do with Mary hanging out the diapers! Sorry I cannot provide more information. Where did I hear this? Might have been at our University's annual holiday concert, a few years ago.
I would love to hear this!
 
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Back when I worked retail, we had a few Very Simple Staff Rules about Christmas music:
—Play Vince Guaraldi Trio's Charlie Brown Christmas album
—Realize that, since most people only know the Vince Guaraldi Trio from Charlie Brown Christmas, you can get away with playing everything by the VGT and people will think it's Christmas music.
—Realize further that, between that an a lot of Christmas standards coming out of the '40's, you can get away with playing even non-VGT combo jazz (Django, Ella, even Piaf) and people will think it's Christmas music.
Not playing Christmas music at all during Christmas was a good system.
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
So true, Ariston. A couple years ago I commandeered the house sound system while everyone else was distracted and did pretty much what you described-- drew a line from Guaraldi to Brubeck/ Django/ Krupa.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
There is loads of rubbish Christmas music for the same reason there is loads or Rubbish Christian music: The class protects it from critical review.
Jesus makes me Happy or Jesus and Santa make me Happy are all that is required.

That said, MtM has a point. Much of the complaint is more whinging about preference than registering a real complaint.

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
My favorite is "I wonder as I wander", sung a capella by a child soprano. I hate it sung by a trained adult voice.

The words are totally unsophisticated, and a trained voice ruins the effect.

I have not linked to a tune because all versions I can find are sung by trained adults.

Moo

Children, not a child, and not a capella, but a simple arraignment.
I think this one borders what you want and what you do not like, but I do see how adults singing this would not be quite right.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Children, not a child, and not a capella, but a simple arraignment.
I think this one borders what you want and what you do not like, but I do see how adults singing this would not be quite right. [/QB][/QUOTE]

You are sure you mean arraignment? Though I would agree that a lot of perpetrators of Christmas music deserve to be dealt with very sternly.
 
Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :
 
If you want something to make you feel Christmassy/cheer you up/give you hope that Christmas music can be valid and fun, listen to any f The Carnival Band's "Carols and Capers" albums with Maddy Prior .
Brilliant!
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Most carols that involve hard cider are alright by me. [Two face]
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
I'm sure Donald Trump's favourite is "I'm dreaming of a White christmas"
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
Now, there's a blast from the past. We used to call it the Enoch Powell song.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
Nobody has mentioned Away in a Manger yet. Awful stuff. I hated it, even as a kid.

I read recently that Silent Night and Away in a Manger were omitted from the original English Hymnal as the Blessed Percy Dearmer regarded them as vulgar
 
Posted by passer (# 13329) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rowen:
The only other person I know who is aware of the Low's fabulous song.....

So, is it you or is it Schroedinger's cat who works for the Guardian ?
 
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:

....everything on the Christmas folk session that BBC4 did a few years ago - Bellowhead, the Unthanks, etc etc etc...

Thank you, thank you, Jemima the 9th, for posting this - I remembered how good it was and have now found it on YouTube [Overused] [Yipee]

[ 12. December 2016, 09:56: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]
 
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :
 
I'll be in the kitchen shouting tunelessly along with Mark E Smith.

Jingle Bell Rock

Post office rot in hell
Friday night on Oxford Street
Walking with green M&S bags
Join them up with old beef and sprouts


Hark the Herald Angels Sing
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Nobody has mentioned Away in a Manger yet. Awful stuff. I hated it, even as a kid.

I read recently that Silent Night and Away in a Manger were omitted from the original English Hymnal as the Blessed Percy Dearmer regarded them as vulgar

Away in a Manger is much better sung to the Wombles Theme.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Away in a Manger is much better sung to the Wombles Theme.

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
No, no - AIAM is better not sung at all.

Sentimental clap-trap - no wonder the Blessed Percy didn't like it...

IJ
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Actually, anything written before the 19th century is likely to be a popular song not intended for use in church. The Coventry Carol, for example, was written for the Coventry Mystery Plays (which were performed as part of the Corpus Christi celebrations).

The tune for 'Ding Dong Merrily on High' is also medieval, but the words weren't written until much later. It was originally the tune for a very boisterous dance called the Official Branle.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
My mother did not like certain verses in 'Once in Royal'. As a child, she felt she was being got at.

Kings' College (the one on the Strand) omit those verses from the version in their final carol service, so I feel happier singing it.

I missed an opportunity to sing 'while Shepherd's Watched' to 'Cranbook' aka 'On Ilkley Moor Baht'at' last night, which I regret.

[ 12. December 2016, 14:08: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

I missed an opportunity to sing 'while Shepherd's Watched' to 'Cranbook' aka 'On Ilkley Moor Baht'at' last night, which I regret.

We shall happily be singing this on Saturday at the Richard III Society carol service at Fotheringhay [Smile] . I look forward to it every time...
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
And we shall have it at our Carol Service on Sunday.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
No, no - AIAM is better not sung at all.

Sentimental clap-trap - no wonder the Blessed Percy didn't like it...

IJ

Agreed. John Bell had a good comment: "The little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes"? "What's wrong with the bairn? That's not normal."
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
He wasn't a "normal" child.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He wasn't a "normal" child.

That's deeper theology than I want to get into!
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He wasn't a "normal" child.

That's deeper theology than I want to get into!
It's also heretical!
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He wasn't a "normal" child.

That's deeper theology than I want to get into!
It sort of implies that a baby's cries may be sinful. Otherwise why shouldn't he cry? Unless the "grace" Mary was full of included a baby that would sleep through the night from the word go.
[Angel]
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He wasn't a "normal" child.

He was. Fully human, I think you will find. So he would have cried.

And I wanted to get to the Low Christmas tour, but it wasn't going to happen, sadly.
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
This is my absolute favorite comprehensive evaluation of Christmas songs. I'm generally in agreement with his opinions on these, surprisingly.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
This is my absolute favorite comprehensive evaluation of Christmas songs. I'm generally in agreement with his opinions on these, surprisingly.

One hopes you are not the sophist windbag he appears to be.
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
I guess it depends on who you ask.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I read recently that Silent Night and Away in a Manger were omitted from the original English Hymnal as the Blessed Percy Dearmer regarded them as vulgar

Let us bless the Blessed Percy.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
John Bell had a good comment: "The little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes"? "What's wrong with the bairn? That's not normal."

While Away in a Manger is dire for many reasons, most babies do not start crying immediately they wake up.
(Although if they do it is nothing directly to do with anything our Lord would have been preserved from.)
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
John Bell had a good comment: "The little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes"? "What's wrong with the bairn? That's not normal."

While Away in a Manger is dire for many reasons, most babies do not start crying immediately they wake up.
Yes, that's the point:
quote:
The cattle are lowing, the baby awakes,
But little Lord Jesus no crying he makes.

does not mean that he never, ever cried. Just that he didn't at that point in the song. I have had it on good authority from many sources that there are many things that make the Baby Jesus cry. Including wretched Christmas songs.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Mousethief said:

quote:
Just once, just one day a year for God's sake, let us celebrate his humanity, his like-us-ness, the fact that he has taken on OUR nature. God has a shitty diaper. Thanks be to God.

There is a Latin American Christmas carol about this very thing--the lyrics have to do with Mary hanging out the diapers! Sorry I cannot provide more information. Where did I hear this? Might have been at our University's annual holiday concert, a few years ago.
I would love to hear this!

It's actually a Spanish carol called "Los Peces en el Río" that's well known in Latin America, or at least in Mexico. I couldn't find a folk version that I liked, so here is an adult contemporary one: Los Peces en el Río

The verse that Egeria mentions goes like this:

La Virgen lava pañales
y los tiende en el romero.
Los pajarillos cantando
y el romero floreciendo.


which means,

The Virgin washes diapers
and she hangs them upon the rosemary.
The little birds (are) singing
and the rosemary (is) blooming.

 
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :
 
I am a drummer and I absolutely despise "The Little Drummer Boy". It's insipid. And if I'm Mary, Jesus's mom and I've just given birth in a stinky, cruddy, cold manger, the last damn thing I want is to hear some kid banging a drum!

"Silent Night" is good. "O, Come, O Come, Emmanuel", "Joy To The World" are all good ones as long as they're not sung by some moronic has-been singer. But, "Frosty the Snowman"? Ugh. Kill me now. "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town"? Again, please, kill me.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
It's actually a Spanish carol called "Los Peces en el Río" that's well known in Latin America, or at least in Mexico. I couldn't find a folk version that I liked, so here is an adult contemporary one: Los Peces en el Río

The verse that Egeria mentions goes like this:

La Virgen lava pañales
y los tiende en el romero.
Los pajarillos cantando
y el romero floreciendo.


which means,

The Virgin washes diapers
and she hangs them upon the rosemary.
The little birds (are) singing
and the rosemary (is) blooming.

Thank you! How lovely. I don't think I'd eat that rosemary though.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I am a drummer

Don't worry, I'll pray for you [Two face]
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I am a drummer and I absolutely despise "The Little Drummer Boy". It's insipid. And if I'm Mary, Jesus's mom and I've just given birth in a stinky, cruddy, cold manger, the last damn thing I want is to hear some kid banging a drum!

Oh come. The Little Drummer Boy is an allegory of the church. We make the loudest noise we can and we think we're helping.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Mary's boy-child, especially as warbled by Johnny Mathis should be consigned to the hottest part of the fiery pit, closely followed by the version by Boney M.

The saccharine Christmas isn't Christmas 'til it happens in your heart also deserves a mention - the only use for this nauseating tosh is as an emetic [Projectile]
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
"Silent Night" is good. "O, Come, O Come, Emmanuel", "Joy To The World" are all good ones as long as they're not sung by some moronic has-been singer. But, "Frosty the Snowman"? Ugh. Kill me now. "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town"? Again, please, kill me.

A church where I used to work had a children's service on Christmas Eve. It included "Frosty," "Rudolph," and "Jingle Bells," as well as a few actual Christmas carols. The Rector explained to me that children don't get to sing Christmas songs in school anymore, so this was the only way for them to hear them. I tried to explain that kids are exposed to lots of secular "Christmas" music, but church was probably the only place they'd hear Christian Christmas music. (Needless to say, that Rector is now a Bishop.)
[Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I am a drummer

Don't worry, I'll pray for you [Two face]
One of Matt Redman's jokes (from the era when Colin Brooks was his drummer) always made me smile.

"We work a lot on deciding the right tempo for songs, then Colin does his own thing".
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
At the risk of being un-Hellish...

I've noticed a bit of a shift over my lifetime. When I were a young orc-imp, Christmas Carols were belted out lustily when opportunity arose. Carol services, school Christmas concerts and whatnot - everyone knew them, they were common currency.

But I get occasionally the short straw to go to the carol service for the local CofE school the younger two hobgoblins attend and despite there being upward of a couple of hundred parents there, many of whom have queued for an hour since dropping their Clurichauns off at the school gates, I find myself singing a duet with the organist. Do people not know them any more? Do they not sing them?

Then I thought, I did, back to when I were a mere hobgoblin myself, and remembered how the background muzak of Christmas was carols. It played in the shops, it played on the streets as the Bedford Lions raised money for whatever they raised money for. But then, and since, a series of Christmas songs started hitting the charts. Slade, Paul McCartney, Wham - you know the standard collection. They all did it. And their works seem to have displaced the carols in the background sounds of the run up to Christmas, as if the evil twin of the Jester stealing the King's thorny crown. The problem is that this Jester's Twin was mostly producing crap.

Who'd a-thunk it. Cliff Richard is to blame.

[ 14. December 2016, 12:53: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 
Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :
 
Following on from Karl's observations there's also the problem that school children are learning some really good new carols which tell the story in the same way as the traditional carols, however these are not being learned by the church congregations or the wider community, so there's not a common pool of carols everyone knows any more.
 
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I think that is significant - there used to be the Bethlehem Carol Sheet with 20 or so carols on it. These covered most of what people knew as Christmas songs, with a few, occasional additional contemporary ones.

Everyone knew these carols (pretty much). that was it for Christmas songs. But since then - 20 years ago? - there are so many more, so many variations, because everyone wants to release a Christmas song. Some people are writing new Christmas songs (as mentioned). So the number of songs now that might be heard (in supermarkets and shopping centres, as well as churches) is vastly more. So we know them less well.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
The Bethlehem Carol Sheet still exists - it has been through many editions and we use it at our Christmas parties and the like (so does at least one local "secular" choir I know).

But I agree that "school" and "church" carols seem to be diverging.

[ 15. December 2016, 17:05: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
At the risk of being un-Hellish...

I've noticed a bit of a shift over my lifetime. When I were a young orc-imp, Christmas Carols were belted out lustily when opportunity arose. Carol services, school Christmas concerts and whatnot - everyone knew them, they were common currency.

But I get occasionally the short straw to go to the carol service for the local CofE school the younger two hobgoblins attend and despite there being upward of a couple of hundred parents there, many of whom have queued for an hour since dropping their Clurichauns off at the school gates, I find myself singing a duet with the organist. Do people not know them any more? Do they not sing them?

This suggests that the parents of your children's schoolmates belong to a younger generation than yours.

Either that, or they just had a different upbringing.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
At the risk of being un-Hellish...

I've noticed a bit of a shift over my lifetime. When I were a young orc-imp, Christmas Carols were belted out lustily when opportunity arose. Carol services, school Christmas concerts and whatnot - everyone knew them, they were common currency.

But I get occasionally the short straw to go to the carol service for the local CofE school the younger two hobgoblins attend and despite there being upward of a couple of hundred parents there, many of whom have queued for an hour since dropping their Clurichauns off at the school gates, I find myself singing a duet with the organist. Do people not know them any more? Do they not sing them?

Then I thought, I did, back to when I were a mere hobgoblin myself, and remembered how the background muzak of Christmas was carols. It played in the shops, it played on the streets as the Bedford Lions raised money for whatever they raised money for. But then, and since, a series of Christmas songs started hitting the charts. Slade, Paul McCartney, Wham - you know the standard collection. They all did it. And their works seem to have displaced the carols in the background sounds of the run up to Christmas, as if the evil twin of the Jester stealing the King's thorny crown. The problem is that this Jester's Twin was mostly producing crap.

Who'd a-thunk it. Cliff Richard is to blame.

This article by John Rutter from a couple of years ago is interesting reading
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
One of the things on my 'To Do' list for 2017 is to check with our affiliated Scouts/Cubs/Beavers group as to what songs they learn in school.

My hope is that some such songs, at least, might be incorporated in the three or four Family/Parade Services we hold each year. Who knows, even the diehards among the Faithful Few (i.e. those who think church music died after the English Hymnal was published) might learn summink new and worthwhile!

IJ
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
Tuesday I woke up about 4 AM I woke up with Bing Crosby's "Mele Kalikimaka" in my head (the title is "Merry Christmas" in Hawaiian). It's a pleasant enough song, but it's annoying in excess. I ouldn't get back to sleep and could not shake the song all morning. And then in the evening I was at Starbucks and they were playing it! Auugghh!
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Bit of both, Svit, bit of both.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Tuesday I woke up about 4 AM I woke up with Bing Crosby's "Mele Kalikimaka" in my head (the title is "Merry Christmas" in Hawaiian). It's a pleasant enough song, but it's annoying in excess. I ouldn't get back to sleep and could not shake the song all morning. And then in the evening I was at Starbucks and they were playing it! Auugghh!

Thanks a lot! Due to 3 or 4 encounters with "Mele Kalikimaka" in a 24-hour period (one of which was the classic Christmas Vacation), I had that ear worm for days. Finally got rid of it, and now it's back.

Mele Kalikimaka to you, too. [Razz]
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The only problem I have with the Bethlehem Carol Sheet is that it uses forms of words for carol verses which don't exist in any other place, rendering them useless if you try to use them for a large carol service with choir singing from harmony carol books. A small niggle, I'll grant, but still irksome.
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Tuesday I woke up about 4 AM I woke up with Bing Crosby's "Mele Kalikimaka" in my head (the title is "Merry Christmas" in Hawaiian). It's a pleasant enough song, but it's annoying in excess. I ouldn't get back to sleep and could not shake the song all morning. And then in the evening I was at Starbucks and they were playing it! Auugghh!

Thanks a lot! Due to 3 or 4 encounters with "Mele Kalikimaka" in a 24-hour period (one of which was the classic Christmas Vacation), I had that ear worm for days. Finally got rid of it, and now it's back.

Mele Kalikimaka to you, too. [Razz]

I'm sorry.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
This article[/URL] by John Rutter from a couple of years ago is interesting reading

But hde is simply wrong about assemnbly being 'dropped.'
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

But I thought that little Lord Jesus no crying He makes.
[Razz]
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

But I thought that little Lord Jesus no crying He makes.
[Razz]

Cattle lowing are one thing. Leo coding is something quite different.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
The Rutter article doesn't match my experience. All schools in my area had assemblies, with singing (mostly trad hymns) until I left in the mid 80s and beyond. Our school was too big to use one hall, so Lower, Middle and Upper each had an assembly in their own hall. We were a bog standard comp in a fairly deprived area, not a church school.

I've just led a scratch choir doing carols and songs in the atrium at work for charity. Three or four experienced choir singers joined in but we also had three who had never sung a note in public. The passers by joined in happily with all the songs.

Despite the preponderance of Slade, Wizzard et al, you still hear carols in the mix in shopping centres. And at the 'Singing for the Brain' sessions I volunteer at, carols are sung lustily.

Oh, and there is always one person in any crowd who sings the descant!

Maybe it's the Gareth Malone effect, or the proliferation of kids singing cover versions on YouTube (sometimes clever
a capella versions with split screens and costume changes) but public singing isn't dead yet, and neither are carols.
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
Do those of you in other parts of the world have annoying regional Christmas songs or variants on traditional songs (either religious or secular)? Around here there are a couple that I find entirely too treacly--and I have a pretty high tolerance:

Christmas in the Northwest

Sippin' in Seattle's Latte Land
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
The Rutter article doesn't match my experience. All schools in my area had assemblies, with singing (mostly trad hymns) until I left in the mid 80s and beyond. Our school was too big to use one hall, so Lower, Middle and Upper each had an assembly in their own hall. We were a bog standard comp in a fairly deprived area, not a church school.

At my South London comprehensive in the 70s we had regular assemblies but never sang or had any prayers.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

And me - am recocering from a stroke and have lost dexterity
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

And me - am recocering from a stroke and have lost dexterity
I have two simultaneous responses:

Firstly, I'm incredibly sorry to hear that. I genuinely hope that you make a full and speedy recovery.

Secondly, Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

He is equally distressed by subject/verb disagreement.

[ 17. December 2016, 16:43: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
Depends if you consider "coding and spelling" to be one function, or two.

Also, everyone hates a grammar Nazi.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Depends if you consider "coding and spelling" to be one function, or two.

Also, everyone hates a grammar Nazi.

But not a coding and spelling Nazi hypocrite? Sure.
 
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :
 
I'm going to do the hand-wringing liberal bit, so I expect brickbats to be launched at my retreating form.

The simple fact is that no-one wins in this situation. Real benefit, from the skill of the bell-ringer, is lost to prevent potential worse loss, in the form of abuse. The question is therefore how close to reality that abuse is, and whether that is close enough to cancel out the real gain from their skill.

Providing that the dean and chapter are not being so utterly preoccupied with the potential loss of reputation to the Minster that they are deaf to all other considerations, I suppose one has reluctantly to trust their judgement because they are there, and I am aware of the Dean's potential for great humanity. Providing bureaucratic process is not being enshrined here as the ultimate good, all is probably as close to well as it can be. I am just very conscious that our child protection laws are where they are in part because of two or three reviews carried out by bureaucrats which, with a depressing inevitability, created increasingly heavy bureaucratic structures as cures for all ills.

Everyone involved in this situation is a human being, and therefore fundamentally equal in the sight and love of God. All involved in this situation are, I believe, called to act in obedience to that love without the arrogance of believing themselves exclusively to embody the divine. As such, some level of process is required in the absence of the perfect knowledge which alone can justify complete freedom of action.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Depends if you consider "coding and spelling" to be one function, or two.

Also, everyone hates a grammar Nazi.

But not a coding and spelling Nazi hypocrite? Sure.
Coding is either right or wrong. If I can see unmatched tags, you're doing it wrong.

Spelling is more regional. I don't care if you write 'colour' or 'color'. Both are acceptable variants of English. And since one of my functions here is to make sure that people post in intelligible English, yes, mostly correct spelling most of the time is a necessary requirement for all Shipmates.

So a gentle, humorous reminder to a Shipmate to possibly remember to use Preview Post (and especially in the circumstances which we're now subsequently aware of) is taken by you as an excuse to swing your dick. Well done.

Fuckwit.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I'm going to do the hand-wringing liberal bit, so I expect brickbats to be launched at my retreating form.

The simple fact is that no-one wins in this situation. Real benefit, from the skill of the bell-ringer, is lost to prevent potential worse loss, in the form of abuse. The question is therefore how close to reality that abuse is, and whether that is close enough to cancel out the real gain from their skill.

Providing that the dean and chapter are not being so utterly preoccupied with the potential loss of reputation to the Minster that they are deaf to all other considerations, I suppose one has reluctantly to trust their judgement because they are there, and I am aware of the Dean's potential for great humanity. Providing bureaucratic process is not being enshrined here as the ultimate good, all is probably as close to well as it can be. I am just very conscious that our child protection laws are where they are in part because of two or three reviews carried out by bureaucrats which, with a depressing inevitability, created increasingly heavy bureaucratic structures as cures for all ills.

Everyone involved in this situation is a human being, and therefore fundamentally equal in the sight and love of God. All involved in this situation are, I believe, called to act in obedience to that love without the arrogance of believing themselves exclusively to embody the divine. As such, some level of process is required in the absence of the perfect knowledge which alone can justify complete freedom of action.

[Confused]
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your coding and spelling is enough to make the Infant Jesus cry.

And me - am recocering from a stroke and have lost dexterity
I echo what Doc Tor said and wish you a full recovery.

What was your excuse for crap coding for all those years you posted in the Ship before you had a stroke.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So a gentle, humorous reminder to a Shipmate to possibly remember to use Preview Post (and especially in the circumstances which we're now subsequently aware of) is taken by you as an excuse to swing your dick. Well done.

Fuckwit.

Oh please. You thwack somebody for something (imperfect post) you are too thin-skinned to accept getting thwacked for yourself. Crybaby.
 
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on :
 
(hangs head in shame)

WRONG THREAD!!!!

If hellhosts had better natures, I would appeal. As it is, I can only light a small candle of hope that it might magically end up in the right place. Might make an iota more sense.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
(*also hangs head in shame*)

I didn't even notice. Missed a prime taunting moment, dammit.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
So a gentle, humorous reminder to a Shipmate to possibly remember to use Preview Post (and especially in the circumstances which we're now subsequently aware of) is taken by you as an excuse to swing your dick. Well done.

Fuckwit.

Oh please. You thwack somebody for something (imperfect post) you are too thin-skinned to accept getting thwacked for yourself. Crybaby.
Uh huh. Whatever makes you sleep better.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
This is my absolute favorite comprehensive evaluation of Christmas songs. I'm generally in agreement with his opinions on these, surprisingly.

One hopes you are not the sophist windbag he appears to be.
He's not just a sophist wind-bag; if he thinks that Lo, how a rose e'er blooming is a
quote:
"Really good, pleasantly staid Old English (my italics) carol",
he probably shouldn't be writing about carols.

For myself, if I never hear O holy night, Silent Night or anything by Frank Sinatra or Bing Crosby ever again, it'll be too soon.

[ 18. December 2016, 15:58: Message edited by: Piglet ]
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

I also have my vision impaired.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
We had this rubbish this morning:

"This is the truth sent from above,

"Woman was made with man to dwell."
So what about singles? widows, lesbians – are women solely defined by their husbands?

"And they did eat, which was a sin,
And thus their ruin did begin.
Ruined themselves, both you and me,
And all of their posterity. "
A literal Adam and Eve

"Thus we were heirs to endless woes,"
All the world’s problems down to one apple?
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
But it's traditional.
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

I also have my vision impaired.
CTRL+ makes things bigger so you can see them. I appreciate the difficulty: however, the smooth running of the board, and the legibility of everyone's posts, is my concern.
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had this rubbish this morning:

"This is the truth sent from above,

If we can have a passage from Genesis among the nine lessons I don't see why we can't have a metrical paraphrase of the same passage.

Granted, the metrical paraphrase is doggerel, but it's nineteenth century folk-doggerel, which makes it Oral Tradition and therefore OK.

(That said choral favourites do indeed get a pass as far as theology is concerned; plenty of fairly Protestant shacks don't seem to bat an eyelid at 'Ne had the apple taken been, ne had never Our Lady a-been Heavenè Queen'.)
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
I have had it with the Huron Carol. It`s a perfectly good song, but I don`t need it more than once a day through Advent, variations included.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
If we can have a passage from Genesis among the nine lessons I don't see why we can't have a metrical paraphrase of the same passage.

Quite. If you want to read Genesis as literal, you can read the song as literal. If you want to read it as metaphor, you can do the same with the song. Simples.

But for my money, being Genuine Victorian Folk Doggerel(TM) doesn't excuse it from the crime of being bad doggerel. I don't object to the theology, but I do object to the poetry.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, everyone hates a grammar Nazi.

I believe they prefer the term "alt-write" these days.
 
Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
[Overused] [Overused]
 
Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had this rubbish this morning:

You were lucky.

We had the same song last week with middle verses omitted, so that the "endless woes" appear to follow directly as a consequence of the creation of woman.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oh.

You mean they don't ?

I already have me coat on....

IJ
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

I also have my vision impaired.
CTRL+ makes things bigger so you can see them.
That doesn't help double vision.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Oh.

You mean they don't ?

I already have me coat on....

IJ

Only for the women. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Preview Post is even more your friend than it is for the rest of the cockwombles down here in the Infernal Regions, who don't have anywhere near the same excuse as you do for shabby coding and the like.

I also have my vision impaired.
CTRL+ makes things bigger so you can see them.
That doesn't help double vision.
I'm very sorry for your (hopefully temporary) impairments.

The rules for posting are few and not particularly onerous. But coherently and in English are two of them. We value your cooperation.
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
I have had it with the Huron Carol. It`s a perfectly good song, but I don`t need it more than once a day through Advent, variations included.

Have you heard it sung in Huron?
Huron Carol - Bruce Cockburn
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
I have had it with the Huron Carol. It`s a perfectly good song, but I don`t need it more than once a day through Advent, variations included.

Have you heard it sung in Huron?
Huron Carol - Bruce Cockburn

It's not for me. The sound of a native English speaker doesn't come across very well to my ear. (Ruth Sutherland has a reasonable version on her new CD, "First Light", but I can't find it on line). I'll try again next year.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo: That doesn't help double vision.
Hie thee to thy optometrist. Double vision can be corrected. I know -- I have it too.
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
Santa Claus is Coming to Town.
If you didn't know anything, you'd think Santa Claus was coming to punish the naughty children rather than reward the nice ones. Being good is equivalent to not pouting and not crying.

The recording that has been about as muzak recently has the singer singing away serenely while the band punctuates his lines with brassy yells and screams.
 
Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :
 
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had this rubbish this morning:

You were lucky.

We had the same song last week with middle verses omitted, so that the "endless woes" appear to follow directly as a consequence of the creation of woman.

We sang it at the Advent Procession. D. says that the verse-order Eliab heard was originally as found in The Oxford Book of Carols; our version has two verses in between about Adam and Eve being in Paradise until they ate of the tree, and then eating the apple, and then the verse about endless woe. We do verses 1-5 and 9 as listed here.

I agree with BT and Ricardus - (a) it's traditional; and (b) if the lessons from Genesis are there, why not have a metrical version from the choir?

[ 19. December 2016, 22:23: Message edited by: Piglet ]
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

How did a Hell thread drift off into Bach? That piece is Heavenly - bought a CD of the oratorio a few weeks ago specially for Advent.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

Well, when your clavier is well-tempered you've got to show it off somehow, don't you?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

Well, when your clavier is well-tempered you've got to show it off somehow, don't you?
Arf arf kersnipp kersnipp huyuk huyuk bwarp bwarp tnch tnch etc.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
If it's not a real language, can we still ask for a translation? [Paranoid]
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
http://viz.co.uk/category/cartoons/strip-cartoons/finbarr-saunders/
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
My current favourite piece of Christmas music is this

It's also a real pain because it's in six flats, except for about a third of the time when the C flat is cancelled, and you have to remember for the whole of each long, slow bar, and about a sixth of the time there are F flats as well. Seven flats?

I'm almost certain that the original key is G major. I have no idea why some dipshit would have transcribed it in G-flat, but people do all sorts of silly things.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The sheet music is available for free download by a simple sheet. It is, as Fr Weber believed, in G major.

Bach was not one to use a silly key where a sensible one would do. What would be the point?
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
The point is that different keys have a different tonal 'colour', which is why something performed in Dflat major has a less bright, in-your-face, colour than C major, for example.

Transcription? Why can't the rest of the world do as any decent organist and just transpose?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
So 'tis said, although I'd be interested in doing some double-blind testing on that as on a well-tempered instrument there shouldn't really be.

It would mean of course that we're not hearing Bach's works how he intended, because he wasn't writing for a 440Hz A, so his G would have sounded like today's Gb - which might explain what someone transposed it.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Depends on the instrument.

IMHO a lot of tosh is talked about "authentic" pitch because no one really knows - and the same is true of "authentic" instruments.

Bach wouldn't have had access to anything that sounded remotely like a piano, and an organ would have had far more wooden pipes which produce a very different sound. But in the case of organ works the possibility of ever achieving what Bach intended isn't a goer simply because so much relies on the registration chosen by any player.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
If I might be hellish again for a moment, does anyone else loathe the Hillsong stuff as much as I do? We had a couple of them in an otherwise perfectly good Advent service the other day, and apart from being vacuous, instantly forgettable, unpoetical, unmusical and marginally spiritual, I am sure there is not much wrong with them, but I hate them anyway. At least they are so forgettable that they don't go banging on in your head afterwards. A five minute meditative silence would be infinitely preferable.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Bach wouldn't have had access to anything that sounded remotely like a piano.

He would presumably have access to a clavichord which
(as this extract shows) is akin to the piano in the sense that one's touch affects the volume of the playing - unlike with the harpsichord.
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So 'tis said, although I'd be interested in doing some double-blind testing on that as on a well-tempered instrument there shouldn't really be.

It would mean of course that we're not hearing Bach's works how he intended, because he wasn't writing for a 440Hz A, so his G would have sounded like today's Gb - which might explain what someone transposed it.

That might be a reason. Of course, it's almost guaranteed that no matter what key it's played in, the temperament won't be anything like one that Bach would have used. Most keyboard instruments nowadays are tuned to equal temperament rather than a well temperament (like Werckmeister or Temperament Ordinaire, e.g.).

And certainly Bach had access to clavichords, but I'll take issue with what l'organist contends about the piano. Bach was familiar with the fortepiano (which is not exactly the same instrument as today's piano, but it's fairly close), but preferred the harpsichord.

Also, I'm not sure whether I'd lean too heavily on the different colors of keys in equal temperament. Voicing is going to sound different when you take a piece down a half-step, certainly; thicker and less open. There's a complex relationship between acoustical phenomenon and psychological reaction, of course. So experienced musicians with well-trained ears will be able to perceive a coloristic difference between a D-flat major triad and one in C, but most people won't.

[ 21. December 2016, 16:37: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Oh FFS. A hell thread about crappy Christmas muzak has become a discussion about Bach's pitch and instrumentation which is more detailed than anything on the Classical music forum I now spend much of my time on because watching you lot prattle on ceased to bring even the degree of joy I used to get from shoving a pitchfork into you.

We've got a poster basically asking permission to become Hellish again for a moment. Instead of the insufferable amateur musicologists asking permission to continue living when parts of their own bodies are probably withering in despair at the prospect of another conversation about the merits of a clavichord.

[ 22. December 2016, 12:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh FFS. A hell thread about crappy Christmas muzak has become a discussion about Bach's pitch and instrumentation which is more detailed than anything on the Classical music forum I now spend much of my time on because watching you lot prattle on ceased to bring even the degree of joy I used to get from shoving a pitchfork into you.

Not quite Dickensian but an admirable run-on sentence. Keep practicing!
 
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 
My favorite part was:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
We've got a poster basically asking permission to become Hellish again for a moment. Instead of the insufferable amateur musicologists asking permission to continue living when parts of their own bodies are probably withering in despair at the prospect of another conversation about the merits of a clavichord.


 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Perhaps not Hellish enough - but does anyone else find that the familiar Christmas carols have simply become worn out for them?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Nurse! Orfeo's out of bed and doing It again! Nurse!
 
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
This one might help you. We had the nine lessons and carols in the local cathedral. This was one of the carols, in honour of Jesus birth, easily the best were the two Cree songs. There's something very moving about drumming and singing, which is clearly an act of worship.

Honour song. Big River is in northern Saskatchewan.
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Perhaps not Hellish enough - but does anyone else find that the familiar Christmas carols have simply become worn out for them?

Yes. A couple of days ago on this thread (The Huron Carol).
 
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
As per the thread title.

I love Elton John. Love. Him. Could pour him on my pancakes and eat him up.

"Step into Christmas." Kill the man. Kill. Him. Dead.

[ 22. December 2016, 23:54: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
Up to a few years ago, if we arrived at the in-laws two days before Christmas we would hear Handel's Messiah at least six times. That still wasn't enough for my late father in law, but it taught me all I needed to understand about aversion therapy. He wasn't actually raving bonkers, but a lot of people might have been forgiven for thinking he was.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
Christmas music, especially carols would be fine if it was restricted to live performances and only in the week of Christmas.
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Christmas music, especially carols would be fine if it was restricted to live performances and only in the week of Christmas.

I agree with you up,to a point, but this time of year seems to excuse people doing crap live performances who at any other time of year certainly wouldn't get away with it.

In most shopping centres you'll see groups of people singing Christmas carols badly, invariably in unison and often hopelessly out of tune while a few others hang around with collection buckets. Of course, you can't say they're crap as it's all for "charidee".

For extra [Projectile] points, have kids from the local primary school singing badly, in unison and out of tune while the adults stand around saying "aren't they wonderful? Isn't it lovely".

No they aren't wonderful and it isn't lovely. Just because they're kids doesn't excuse them for being crap

[ 23. December 2016, 06:52: Message edited by: Spike ]
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Palimpsest:
[qb]In most shopping centres you'll see groups of people singing Christmas carols badly, invariably in unison and often hopelessly out of tune while a few others hang around with collection buckets. Of course, you can't say they're crap as it's all for "charidee".

They don't get it do they. Do something worthwhile for charity and I may give something worthwhile (depending on the charity, LRP tells me off for over giving). If you can't be bothered to do something well I won't be bothered to pay. (I also get told off for walking past.)

You want to raise money? Do something well.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

You want to raise money? Do something well.

I prefer that you do something worthwhile (and well). I am not making a donation to support you in a five-mile walk, or bike ride, or whatever. The energy you put into walking a marathon (and closing down major roads on a Sunday morning) could be put into actually helping someone.
 
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

You want to raise money? Do something well.

I prefer that you do something worthwhile (and well). I am not making a donation to support you in a five-mile walk, or bike ride, or whatever. The energy you put into walking a marathon (and closing down major roads on a Sunday morning) could be put into actually helping someone.
Isn't the idea that that's what they do with the money they raise on the walkathon or whatever? If they could get you (us) to part with our dosh to help them do that without the stunt, they would do so. But for some reason the stunt is required to raise the money.

[ 23. December 2016, 19:26: Message edited by: mousethief ]
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
We used to have a sponsorship thing with the children's school that was based on how much better they got at swimming - proved by the number of lengths completed in the challenge at the end of the outdoor swimming term.

1. Money raised for good cause.
2. Children without funds could nevertheless raise money from sponsorship.
3. It required improvement of a skill that could be measured in the final challenge.
4. Because of (3) it meant even the most tentative, nervous swimmer could raise a decent sum.

I agree about half-arsed carol singing: we had someone in the local town caterwauling to a backing tape and I was delighted to see and hear someone go up and give them £20 with the instruction "That's for Crisis - now stop offending me and everyone else and stop singing."
 
Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:

I missed an opportunity to sing 'while Shepherd's Watched' to 'Cranbook' aka 'On Ilkley Moor Baht'at' last night, which I regret.

We shall happily be singing this on Saturday at the Richard III Society carol service at Fotheringhay [Smile] . I look forward to it every time...
Glad to hear they still do it! It's some years since I've managed to get myself to Fotheringhay for that.
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

You want to raise money? Do something well.

I prefer that you do something worthwhile (and well). I am not making a donation to support you in a five-mile walk, or bike ride, or whatever. The energy you put into walking a marathon (and closing down major roads on a Sunday morning) could be put into actually helping someone.
Isn't the idea that that's what they do with the money they raise on the walkathon or whatever? If they could get you (us) to part with our dosh to help them do that without the stunt, they would do so. But for some reason the stunt is required to raise the money.
Yeah. I thought the idea was to raise money for good causes. I must be thick. I've even put money into collection tins when the only thing going on was someone standing there shaking the damn thing. [Paranoid]
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Well, since I know it's everyone's favorite on this thread, and also as a tribute to one of 2016's departed, I guess I'll just post this holiday classic for your audial enjoyment.
 
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I've always hated Little Drummer Boy, and anything by Bing Crosby, but for reasons I can't explain, I didn't mind the combination of them and David Bowie.

Not one of my favourites, but not one that made me want to kill dead things ... [Devil]
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
How can you kill a dead thing?
 
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
How can you kill a dead thing?

It comes alive around November 24th every year.

I hate much of what Christmas music pours into the air but with Spotify I can curate what I breathe in myself.
 


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