Ship of Fools: Brexiters

Thread: Brexiters Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

This is not about discussing the pros and cons of Brexit. But someone I follow on Twitter who is German by origin posted that she feels that she isn't wanted. I posted an apology to her for my fellow countryfolk.

The abuse that both she and I have received - by the people who WON THE FUCKING VOTE, and are getting everything they could have asked for in their wettest of wet dreams - are horrible, angry, dismissive, abusive (although she might not be RTing the worst.

Just for clarity, I was quite forceful, because I personally do think that "vile" describes those who no longer want a university lecturer who has been here for 11 years to stay. Which seems to include most of parliament (at least Tory and Labour). Sorry, this xenophobic racism is vile.

If that is the type of people in whose hands our country now is, we have nothing left. We are utterly fucked. There is nothing left worth fighting for.

Really. I am beyond despair. There are those - one or two - I have engaged with who disagree, and want to be out of the EU. It isn't just because they disagree. It is because they are indicating just how vile they are.

So really, if you are such a fucking sore winner, kindly stick your head in the sea for an hour, you pathetic, whinging shits.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

I couldn't agree more. The anti-immigrant part of the support for Brexit seems to have grown in importance. It's no longer about better trade, sovereignty, reducing bureaucracy (if it ever really was), it's just about getting the foreigners out. There isn't even any economic sense to it (immigrants bring jobs and tax revenue to the UK far in excess of the costs to public services), nor any other logical basis. It's just racism, pure and simple.

Bloody Brexiters.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

I honestly believe what I posted on twitter earlier - every racist in Britain will think Parliament gave them a green light tonight. I can't believe what we've unleashed in this country.

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

I never thought I would see Kristallnacht in Britain...

Libdem lords are saying they will try to push back....

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Anybody who tries to resist is told they are flouting "the will of the people" - the UberWill, if you want.

Except that it isn't and never has been. The reason they won't hold a second referendum on the actual plan is they know they would be defeated. The UberWill has spoken, and that is it.

As I posted at length on twitter earlier, this will kill people. This will break families and individuals. The events of this period will resonate - badly - for decades in our life.

That is intensely depressing. I don't want to live in interesting times.

Posted by DaleMaily (# 18725) on :

There's an interesting snippet I found on Twitter from an article (I think from the Times) about why the winners (Leavers and Trumpers) are still angry.

Can't see many of them taking a cold, hard look in the mirror though...

Posted by Rocinante (# 18541) on :

At least now all the lies about Brexit are being stripped away. It was never about "sovereignty", it was never about more money for the NHS. It was always, always about xenophobia, and nothing good will come of it.

The process of having your illusions destroyed is never easy. People need support to get through it; the first stage may well be just venting.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Except for the link between "regaining sovereignty" and xenophobia.

Posted by Rocinante (# 18541) on :

Yes, "sovereignty" was really just another mask for xenophobia. It's hard to see just what sovereignty might mean in a globalised world - freedom from armed takeover by another state, to be sure, but we haven't been in danger of that for decades now. To the Brexiters it means "no foreigners allowed".

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I honestly believe what I posted on twitter earlier - every racist in Britain will think Parliament gave them a green light tonight. I can't believe what we've unleashed in this country.

Yes.

I was in school on Tuesday and a teaching assistant was talking in a racist way. 'Those Asian children' were getting on her nerves.

I hear racist talk I haven't heard for twenty years [Tear]

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
This is not about discussing the pros and cons of Brexit. But someone I follow on Twitter who is German by origin posted that she feels that she isn't wanted.

I haven't seen this exchange, obviously, but generally speaking it seems to me that anti-German sentiment in this country is the lowest it has ever been in my lifetime. The whole 'two world wars and one world cup' mentality appears to be, finally, subsiding.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

I think specific anti-German sentiment is declining. Just don't mention the war. I did it once, but I think I got away with it.

However, it's being replaced by a more general anti-anyone-not-British sentiment. Too many people in the UK seem to hate the Germans, but not specifically because they feel the same way about the French, the Poles, and everyone else. If you find yourself unwelcome because you aren't British, it's not much different from finding yourself unwelcome because you're German.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Schroedinger's Cat:

quote:
As I posted at length on twitter earlier, this will kill people.

It already has...

[Mad]

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Schroedinger's Cat:
quote:
As I posted at length on twitter earlier, this will kill people.
It already has...

Well quite - although in fairness hatred seems to be an equal opportunities pastime

these days...

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Too much drink, an argument (happens to be about the referendum result) and a few too many punches are thrown and angry words spoken. It's a far too common occurance. But, it doesn't seem to balance a group of youths deliberately targetting someone because of their ethnic background and killing him. That's before you factor in that hate-crimes have increased markedly since Cameron called this stupid referendum, whereas that's one instance of violence by Remain voters - unless, of course, you can point to a significant number of other instances of violence associated with Remain voters, especially instances of premeditation leading to murder rather than drunken brawls.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I don't think the fact that she was German specifically was an issue, just that she wasn't British. Whatever perverse thing that means.

I suspect the Brexit supporters are the sort of people who just like to complain loudly and at length about everything. For years, they have been able to complain that the reason they are useless fucks is because of the EU. Now the reason is because other people exist.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I suspect the Brexit supporters are the sort of people who just like to complain loudly and at length about everything.

Given the number of posts and threads now complaining about this subject, I can't help but feel that there's a degree of psychological projection going on here.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Schroedinger's Cat:
quote:
As I posted at length on twitter earlier, this will kill people.
It already has...

Well quite - although in fairness hatred seems to be an equal opportunities pastime

these days...

Whataboutery. False equivalence.

The hate is coming overwhelmingly from one side - the side that narrowly won. Pointing that out is a copper-bottomed fact.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I suspect the Brexit supporters are the sort of people who just like to complain loudly and at length about everything.
Given the number of posts and threads now complaining about this subject, I can't help but feel that there's a degree of psychological projection going on here.

I think Cat has a point; the other day a Daily Heil column basically said "Remoaners should stop name-calling" - with no obvious recognition of the irony.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I think this belongs here.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

They've done a reasonably good job of burying collusion with terrorism in Northern Ireland. Other colonial 'expeditions' were I guess a little less fraught than those forty years before. But yes, clearly the man is a complete tit with no understanding of history let alone his own.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Just checked the source.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

If you can find one with the actual video clip, the presenter even gestures to the screen behind Fox at one point, as if to say, "but look. It's right there, even as you say you didn't send it. We can all see who sent it. You did."

Is there literally any point any more?

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

The man's a complete dick.

But, to be very-slightly-fair to him, the graphics on a 24h news channel might be added by computer. He may in fact be sitting in front of (the equivalent of) a green screen and so although it might look to viewers that the tweet was right there, he can't actually see it.

That said, it clearly was sent from his verified twitter account, and he is repeating the words again - whilst saying that someone else tweeted it from a speech he gave - so saying that he didn't tweet it is an untruth.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

That said, it clearly was sent from his verified twitter account, and he is repeating the words again - whilst saying that someone else tweeted it from a speech he gave - so saying that he didn't tweet it is an untruth.

Is his verified twitter account operated by him, or by his staff? 'Cause it's possible that it was someone on his staff tweeting quotes from his speech on his behalf.

I'm tying myself in almost Clintonesque knots trying to tell a story that doesn't involve a deliberate lie here! I don't think his introduction of the Grauniad into the tale can be anything other than deliberate misdirection, whatever else, though. If the quote was taken out of context, it was done by either him or his staff. He has, AFAIK, no grounds for citing the Grauniad at all.

Rather like Kellyanne Conway talking about spying on people with microwaves.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

His account. Whoever tweets from it, one assumes that they do so with his approval and authority.

Irrespective of whether he could see it behind him, he tweeted it, and then lied about tweeting it.

So he is a complete pile of shit. He may be a pile of excrement who has no control over his twitter account. He may be a suppurating dung-pile with no control over his life for all I know. But he is a politician who should take responsibility for what he has said.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
His account. Whoever tweets from it, one assumes that they do so with his approval and authority.

Irrespective of whether he could see it behind him, he tweeted it, and then lied about tweeting it.

He is responsible for it, certainly. If we assume that it was a staff member managing his account, then:

0. His account, his responsibility
1. It was still a quote, made by him, in a speech.
2. It was tweeted on his behalf by someone with general authority to do so (but it's unlikely that he approves specific tweets.)
3. Whether that qualifies as "he tweeted it" or not is a Clinton discussion.
4. It is, I suppose, possible that he doesn't review the tweets coming from his account, and so didn't know that "he" tweeted it.
5. Dragging the Guardian into it seems to be an attempt to evade responsibility
6. I agree that whether or not he did all this in front of a big picture of the tweet makes no difference to his culpability (but might make a difference to his stupidity).
7. An honest politician in his position could take the opportunity to place the quote in context, if he thinks it misrepresents his views. He doesn't need to mention the Guardian.
8. Yes, he's an arse of the first water.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
But he is a politician who should take responsibility for what he has said.

That would make him a very unusual politician.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Here it is on the Mirror website (video autoplays). The presenter gestures to the screen at 0:12. I think it's clear from that that the picture is visible in the studio.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Here it is on the Mirror website (video autoplays). The presenter gestures to the screen at 0:12. I think it's clear from that that the picture is visible in the studio.

I'm not sure that actually tells us anything in reality. Presenters are trained to gesture at a screen that isn't there all the time (eg weather presenters) in order to highlight things for the viewer - she could have been told by the producer via her earpiece to make that gesture.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Colour me unconvinced. Her whole body is screaming, "WTF?"

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Colour me unconvinced. Her whole body is screaming, "WTF?"

Who cares whether you are convinced or not? You're seeing what you want to see. It might be true, or it might not be.

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

So I have probably said this before but I don't care.

I am so sad for my country
Sad and angry.

On the myth of 'respecting the will of the people' our spineless, cowardly government are doing untold damage to the long-term prospects for the UK and the savage irony is almost no-one will get what they voted for.

A smaller irony is how I have never really loved the EU but what can you do...

48% of the country voted to remain in the EU
Some people voted for £350m / week for the NHS - this one a blatant lie and mathematically impossible
Some people voted for a 'Norway' type option - but that's not even being contemplated pre-negotiation
Some people voted to reduce immigration - unlikely because no government is willing to pay the huge economic cost of reducing immigration
Some people voted for improved UK prosperity outside the EU - all the indicators are that we will end up worse off
A small number of people voted for leaving the EU regardless of the costs and consequences because that is the only issue that matters to them.
These are the only people who are getting what they voted for.

If the referendum had been designed to deal with the huge divisions among the UK population about our relationship with Europe then we would have had a proper debate about what kind of post-EU Britain was possible. We would have had serious input from people who know what they're talking about, covering the advantages and disadvantages of various options. We would have had a proper public airing of the costs of each option and the benefits and the real uncertainties in all this.
Then the public could have been given one or more option to vote for.
We would have had a turnout threshold
We would have had a super-majority requirement.

We had none of these simply because the only point of the referendum was to hold the Conservative party together.

So Tories, you have sacrificed the good of the country to hold your party together. You have risked our children's future for short-term political gain.

Was it worth it?

AFZ

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

AFZ - was it worth it? No. Never will be. It was all about short term gain.

It will be a disaster. Not least, because nobody has even the slightest clue as to how to make it work*. But yes, it is a political gamble. A few politicians are gambling with our future for their own benefit.

They are a complete bunch of self-serving, fuckers, who should be thrown into the darkest, deepest pit.

(And Alan - yes, I meant to say public official, not politician. Politicians are scum.)

*Probably because it cannot be made to work.

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :

And when it is shown to have been a disaster my fear is that those who voted leave will blame the authorities who "mishandled" the whole Brexit deal and will avoid taking any responsibilty for their own voting actions.

I may be proved wrong, of course.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
And when it is shown to have been a disaster my fear is that those who voted leave will blame the authorities who "mishandled" the whole Brexit deal and will avoid taking any responsibilty for their own voting actions.

I may be proved wrong, of course.

I don't think you will be. If people well and truly considered their voting, this wouldn't be happening.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

There will also be a sizeable number of people who voted Leave claiming they actually voted Remain, and the mess isn't their fault at all.

[conversely if there's some miracle and this actually works out well, there will be people who voted Remain claiming they voted Leave]

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
And when it is shown to have been a disaster my fear is that those who voted leave will blame the authorities who "mishandled" the whole Brexit deal and will avoid taking any responsibilty for their own voting actions.

I may be proved wrong, of course.

They already have been, ever since the referendum. I don't see this changing. "It was the right thing to do, but those idiots messed things up".

Because if the Brexiteers are good any anything, it is not taking responsibility. And Cabbage is the prime example.

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :

A recent Facebook meme suggested that the Government should not actually Leave but tell everyone they have. The Brexiteers believed so many lies before the vote that they are sure to believe that one as well.

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