quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
However today it too was 'All-age'. It did include the Eucharist (for which many thanks) and began with a procession of palms. But then it sort of collapsed into 'messy church' and the making of collage pictures of the events of Holy Week. There was no reading of the Passion which to my mind is the crucial element. . . . I'm letting off steam here because it would be rude and inappropriate to do so to the parish priests concerned.

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Your only consolation is that the church in question can no longer be called a desert, as it has been flooded with the tears of the Baby Jesus and his Blessed Mother.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Come to my pad - please! Though perhaps a tad far to travel.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Angloid

I feel for you.

BUT - for years some of us have tried to say to clergy who prate about 'all-age' and 'worship' and 'family praise services' that religion lite is not enough and we've been ignored or, worse, howled down.

As it happens, I bumped into one of our locally retired bishops earlier this morning and he was moaning about the quality of service on offer in the village where he now lives: I pointed out that in his earlier incarnation he had defended precisely the sort of regime on offer.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Quite right, L'Organist.

I can sympathise too, Angloid.

I find our local liberal catholic parish conducive in terms of the way it celebrates the eucharist, but it's over all theology is too liberal for me.

On the other hand, I find our evangelical parish far too evangelical (in the wrong sense of the term) and as for the communion ... I've been involved with Baptist churches where the sense of there being something 'special' about the eucharist is far more palpable and expressed more explicitly than it is here ...


 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
As a Baptist, I can hardly comment - although I do actually like even Nonconformist liturgy to be done "properly" and despair of over-informality.

I think there are three or four questions here.

1. The first is to ask how much any one church can satisfy everyone, all the time. And whether we all become so taken up with consumer culture that we find it important to "like" what is on offer at the church we attend?

I hope this doesn't sound grouchy but, after all, until fairly recently most people "had" to go to a local church, irrespective of what was on offer there, as they could not go further afield. (All right, I exaggerate ... but one couldn't jump in a car and drive elsewhere).

2. It does strike me, as a non-Anglican, that parish churches should not have a particular theological or liturgical emphasis ... or else should somehow be able to cater for all the different variations via a plethora of services!

I realise that the latter is impossible - but there is something to be said for all parish churches being fairly MOTR, so that they cater for as many folk as possible. There is also something to be said about consistency across the whole Church. (Those who want something different can always go to the Nonconformists or the Catholics (or whatever).

3. One question cannot answer is about the requirements of Canon Law, especially with regard to Eucharist. We only have it twice a month (once in the morning and once in the evening) but there is no external requirement mandated us to follow any particular pattern.

4. Interestingly, the retired Vicar who conducted worship at the service I attended yesterday was saying something very similar to you with respect to Easter services in this town. There are about 10 Anglican churches he could attend, but he said that the only ones whose liturgy really "work" for him are those which he cannot attend as he disagrees with their stand against the ordination of women. (I'm not trying to introduce a DH, just reporting his predicament).

5. By the way, I would much prefer not to read the Passion Narrative on Palm Sunday, but focus on the Entry to Jerusalem. I'd leave the Passion to Good Friday rather than "jumping the gun", as it were. Of course the real problem is that there isn't a Sunday in between ...!

[ 30. March 2015, 13:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Baptist as you are, BT, I think you've got a much better understanding of what it means to be CoFE than all too many CofE clergy!

[ 30. March 2015, 13:39: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Is it too much to expect that every ordinary parish church should have at least one celebration of the Eucharist every Sunday according to an authorised rite?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Baptist as you are, BT, I think you've got a much better understanding of what it means to be CoFE than all too many CofE clergy!

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Well, thank you ... perhaps they should defect to the One True Church then !

[ 30. March 2015, 14:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Believe me, you wouldn't want 'em
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
You're quite right, Baptist Trainfan. I agree with all your points except the last. As a Baptist you are of course at total liberty to focus on the Entry into Jerusalem and place less or no emphasis on the Passion. But as Anglicans we have the option of ignoring the former but not the latter, on the Sunday before Easter. Pastorally speaking it makes no sense (apart from offering a less-challenging liturgy) to jump straight from the Hosannas of the palms to the Alleluias of Easter. I don't know any parish where the regular Sunday congregation turns up en masse for the Good Friday Liturgy. Indeed many churches don't even offer the full Liturgy; they have a 'passion-lite', consisting of meditations which may or may not be challenging but usually depend on the Vicar's imagination or lack of it.

After yesterday's let-down however, I was greatly encouraged by today's Chrism Mass and an inspiring episcopal address. So all is not lost.
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Is it too much to expect that every ordinary parish church should have at least one celebration of the Eucharist every Sunday according to an authorised rite?

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I could be wrong, but isn't there something in Canon Law to that effect?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Pastorally speaking it makes no sense ... to jump straight from the Hosannas of the palms to the Alleluias of Easter. I don't know any parish where the regular Sunday congregation turns up en masse for the Good Friday Liturgy.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Somewhat jealous of all those able to experience the full liturgy of the Passion this Holy Week. I'm gradually, by baby steps, introducing bits of the traditional liturgy to the church with which I worship - we had the full Passion Gospel read in parts yesterday and will have communion and foot washing on Maundy Thursday. Reservation for the solemn liturgy of Good Friday is a step too far for my Presbyterian and Baptist brothers and sisters at present but I live in hope! Need to go and write a reflection for Holy Tuesday now before I go to bed.

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quote:

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In some parishes it has been customary to have a second Table at a later hour, when the communicants receive the elements already consecrated.

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Preamble to 'Order which may be used at a second Table', Book of Common Order, 1940 (p.132). So there at least in essence you have a liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, with the imprimatur of General Assembly! I suspect that this assumes that the communicants at the second Table will not be the same people as at the first; it does not specify how long may elapse between the two Tables. But you might interpret those factors as you choose ...
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I can sympathise, Karl - even if - and I can't remember rightly - I may have been one of those who gave you a hard time and told you to grin and bear it ...

I think there's a lot in what Baptist Trainfan has said. Back in the day most people didn't have a great deal of option as to which church to attend - unless they lived in a city where all different types of churches were cheek-by-jowl ... or in West Yorkshire or the South Wales Valleys where there was almost a different 'flavour' of non-conformist chapel on every street corner ...

Or, Newport in South Wales where, as Sioni Sais reminds us, the saying is that there are more churches than Christians ...

I don't think there's an easy answer.

It might make sense in some ways for all Anglican parishes to offer MoR style worship - but that ain't going to suit either the evangelicals nor the Anglo-Catholics.

Our local evangelical vicar seems to think that it's his job to try and nudge people towards more evangelical/charismatic style worship - starting with a traditional but rather 'relaxed' (as he puts it) 9am service as an entry-level or 'safe' zone ...

Some people vary and attend both the 9am and the more 'lively' or wannabee lively 11am ... but by and large he's effectively ended up with two congregations.

I daresay an Anglo-Catholic priest may see it as part of his job to introduce people to the 'beauty of holiness' and the delights of a more ritualised approach ...

I'm not sure if there is any way 'around' that in either case.

The Orthodox seem to be the only ones who go in for 'one size fits all' but even there you will find some regional variations to a certain extent.

I think the key might be liturgical literacy, but I can't see that happening any time soon. I've got to be honest, and I'm not boasting either, but even as someone who spent a quarter of a century in 'new church' and Free Church settings, I feel I'm more 'liturgically literate' than our local evangelical vicar at times.

I s'pose the bottom line for me - and I don't mean this to sound consumerist - is that however it's done it should be done well. I agree with Baptist Trainfan - there are times when traditional non-conformist worship can really hit the spot - as it were. At other times it seems to fly wide of the mark.

The same is true with liturgical worship. At times in more liturgical services I've felt, 'Surely God is in this place, this is none other than the house of God, this is the gate of heaven ...'

At other times I've 'felt' absolutely nothing at all. Not that it's about feelings and so on ...

What worries me about the liturgically-lite approach that seems so prevalent these days is that a lot of the actual pedagogy of it is going out of the window.

Sure, there were places that were 'liturgically-correct' where the catechesis was dire or practically non-existent.

Now, we seem to have gone to the other extreme where everything is lite and accessible but some of the value and meaning seems to be squandered for a mess of dumbed-down pottage.
 

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Posted by GCabot (# 18074) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Pastorally speaking it makes no sense ... to jump straight from the Hosannas of the palms to the Alleluias of Easter. I don't know any parish where the regular Sunday congregation turns up en masse for the Good Friday Liturgy.

---

Yes, that's the problem in a nutshell. If it's any consolation, Baptists may well be even worse at turning up on Good Friday (or Maundy Thursday evening), as they mostly have little concept of the liturgical year. (They're good at taking part in public acts of witness on Good Friday, however ... especially as they haven't got a 3-hour service to get back to, only tea and hot cross buns!)

---

Interesting... when I was growing up in an Evangelical church, Good Friday was pretty much the only non-Sunday day of "mandatory" church attendance, besides Christmas Eve.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Interesting ... I can remember non-conformists making more of Good Friday than is often the case these days.

What I haven't seen, though, is the scenario georgiaboy describes ...



I'm not necessarily against innovation, but some places do act daft in the interests of doing things differently ...
 

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Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Somewhat jealous of all those able to experience the full liturgy of the Passion this Holy Week. I'm gradually, by baby steps, introducing bits of the traditional liturgy to the church with which I worship - we had the full Passion Gospel read in parts yesterday and will have communion and foot washing on Maundy Thursday. Reservation for the solemn liturgy of Good Friday is a step too far for my Presbyterian and Baptist brothers and sisters at present but I live in hope! Need to go and write a reflection for Holy Tuesday now before I go to bed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
I could have gone to the cathedral for a very formal and impersonal liturgy; to a Forward-in-faith church for the Roman mass (in the latest 'translation'); or to an anglo-catholic version of the Book of Common Prayer. None of which would be really in my comfort zone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

At other times I've 'felt' absolutely nothing at all. Not that it's about feelings and so on ...

---

As a liberal catholic sacramental perfectionist long informed by charismatic memories of awe and evangelical memories of the centrality of the Risen Lord I am of course perfect at such matters ... however I confess, too, that having burned my arse off for several weeks taking the faithful on a journey that they may or may not appreciate, attempting to convey something of the awe and mystery and centrality of the Cross and the joy of resurrection and the magnificence of choral tradition (and fighting that attitude that that the Choir is the Good News) and Lord knows what else I have little room for feeling anything, year by year, and in my current pad less than ever (because the task is greater than ever).

But I take some comfort in the objectivity of it all - that God is present and embracing me even when I feel (as I do now) like a burned out shell. I take comfort too in the glimpses I get of lights switching on in the souls of those who are encountering this for the or the re-first time ...

... and I look forward to retiring in about fifteen years time when some other bastard can do the work and I'll just reach out my hands at the final rope - the Easter communion - and gasp "thank you, thank you Jesus" and know the Easter joy* again at last.

* which is not to say I don't, or I'm burned out or something ... I do and I'm not. But just to hitchhike again, one day ... or maybe just piss off to the eschatological bunfight where I see no longer through a darkened glass blah blah
 

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Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on :
 
georgiaboy,

I'm not sure that it's still done, but the local Methodist church used to open its chapel for three hours on Good Friday for self-serve communion.

I wondered whether the grape juice and bread cubes were left over from the previous evening (a sort of reserved Sacrament?) or were they simply plunked down straight from the bottles and loaves absent any kind of sacramental preparation?
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
In reply to Cottontail:



I could not have said it better myself.

[ 31. March 2015, 00:16: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
 

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Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ldjjd:
I wondered whether the grape juice and bread cubes were left over from the previous evening (a sort of reserved Sacrament?) or were they simply plunked down straight from the bottles and loaves absent any kind of sacramental preparation?

---

Knowing Methodists the way I do, I would not be at all surprised if it was the latter. We've gotten very sloppy of late.
 

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Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :
 
Zappa:

 

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Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cottontail:
]You have my sympathy. You really do. I know you have little option but a low-church Presbyterian one, when your natural instincts tend towards the high liturgical. But as a minister in the CofS, even a rather liturgically-minded one, can I just say how incredibly annoying it is when Anglican exiles arrive in one's local Church of Scotland and try to turn it into an Anglican one. As we are the parish church up here in the north, it happens a lot. I am glad to welcome new people with new ideas and energy; I am more than happy to learn from other traditions; and personally I have a great love of the Anglican tradition, and have gained a lot from my time among the Anglo-Catholics. But the fact remains that we are a different tradition, with different riches, and yes, some very different theologies.

So in my church, we too had the Passion readings on Palm Sunday (whether they were the 'proper' ones or not, I neither know nor care). We too are having a Maundy Thursday communion, simple and straightforward (though no footwashing), and we usually do a tenebrae-style service on Good Friday evening (probably nothing like an Anglican tenebrae, but again, I don't know or care, and it works for us). We're even having a two-and-a-half hour vigil on Saturday evening.

But you'll get your 'reservation' over my dead body!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Missed the edit window, just wanted to add:

I suppose what I'm saying is that I draw a distinction between encouraging the CofS to move in a particular directions within its own, broad tradition, and trying to make it move outside that. If I'm leading worship I try to fit within Presbyterian norms and not cause offence to those of that tradition while still remaining honest to my own beliefs and traditions. I thought I had made a misstep a few weeks ago when I talked about there still being people with the gift of prophecy and only realising afterwards that the CofS is traditionally cessationist. Fortunately I was reassured that this was no longer the case.

---

I was teasing a little too, Arethosemyfeet. You are clearly very sensitive to the tradition you are working with, and I appreciate that very much - as I am sure they do.

(And yes, one doesn't tend to hear much by way of cessationist theology now, though it might still be going strong in the Highlands and Islands, for all I know. Not an issue at all where I am, and I would be looked at blankly if I raised it.)
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PaulTH*:

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I could have gone to the cathedral for a very formal and impersonal liturgy; to a Forward-in-faith church for the Roman mass (in the latest 'translation'); or to an anglo-catholic version of the Book of Common Prayer. None of which would be really in my comfort zone.

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I can understand your wish not to go to a FiF parish, but what's wrong with the other options if you like a formal liturgy?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Zappa:
But just to hitchhike again, one day ... or maybe just piss off to the eschatological bunfight where I see no longer through a darkened glass blah blah

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The Restaurant at the End of the Universe perhaps?
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Sorry for the triple post but I was going to say this before I was distracted by the two I replied to.

Just been to see the filmed version of the Manchester Royal Exchange production of Hamlet, with Maxine Peake in the title role. I had tears down my cheeks several times during the 3+ hour performance. And it set me wondering: why do so few liturgies have the same effect? Not necessarily stirring emotions in the same way, but pointing to a transcendence beyond the here and now.

I don't think it has anything to do with the lack of performance skills on the part of the clergy, nor with costumes or choreography. Indeed a theatrical approach to worship would be quite wrong and counter-productive. But good drama, and poetry, though rooted in reality and having both feet on the ground, can transform our vision from something particular and mundane to something greater and more universal. Sacraments, and liturgy, are almost by definition that. All too often though, we apologise for them, presenting them as if we don't really believe in their significance, as if we are embarrassed about giving people too much religion. Too much modern liturgy is didactic rather than proclamatory. We tend to explain too much as if we are frightened of letting God reveal him/herself. Or as Hamlet said, 'the lady (and gentleman) doth protest too much.'
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
I do like to be part of a smallish congregation that knows and supports one another, rather than an impersonal crowd like a cathedral.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:


But I digress. I think my point is that churchmanship and style are, to my mind, rather secondary to the nature of the church community. Or as the writer of Proverbs would put it (if exaggeratedly) "Better a small serving of vegetables with love than a fattened calf with hatred"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Your OP was entirely about style and churchmanship.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Your OP was entirely about style and churchmanship.

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Fair point. Though I would argue that it's more about content. Within the Church of England I would expect a wide variety of expression, and though I have my own preferences it's often good to stray outside them. My main point is that a recognisable form of Anglican liturgy, including the Eucharist and using the authorised lectionary, should be on offer (as per Canon Law) in every parish church every Sunday, whatever else is provided besides.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You don't (screaming horrors) fall into the dreaded "Ephesians verse by verse over two years" trap.

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A bit of a tangent. The late Michael Saward (do I dare mention him on this board?) wrote of his second Curacy c.1962 in an Evangelical north London parish. His Rector was a great fan of Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones and believed in verse-by-verse exposition, not recognising that the congregation at Westminster Chapel was rather different to the one in Edgware, and got rather tired of this approach.

Anyway, one day he asked Michael to "ginger up" the titles of his next few sermons, with the aim of making them sound more contemporary. Michael did so; but, as he was posting them onto the church noticeboard, a disgruntled parishioner said, "Huh! He can call them what he likes - but they're still bloody First Peter!"

[ 01. April 2015, 14:28: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ha ha ...

A Reformed Baptist minister back home in South Wales allegedly spent four years going through Jude verse by verse.

I'm sure that was an exaggeration but having sat through one of his sermons on Jude I'm not sure it was much of one ...



Meanwhile, on complaining to the Archdeacon. I don't know who our Archdeacon is, but I'm sure I could find out.

What purpose would it serve?

Would he compel our vicar to use the lectionary?

All it'd do would be to create bad blood.

Our vicar tends to be 'my way or the highway' as it is ...

I'm not scared of the bloke, but I'm not sure what complaining to ecclesiastical authorities who turn a blind eye to breaches of rubric would achieve.

Our vicar only wears vestments when the bishop comes and I'm told that's only to strike a deal whereby he can get away without wearing them the rest of the time.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

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...ecclesiastical authorities who turn a blind eye to breaches of rubric ...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ha ha ...

A Reformed Baptist minister back home in South Wales allegedly spent four years going through Jude verse by verse.

I'm sure that was an exaggeration but having sat through one of his sermons on Jude I'm not sure it was much of one ...

---

Of course, there are pitfalls with other types of preaching too. There is a story of a preacher at Yale who waxed eloquent on the virtues of (say) Youth, Athleticism, Literacy and Enthusiasm - about ten minutes on each.

After the service two students were walking down the path. One started giggling. "Why are you laughing?", asked the other, "That was dire".

"Yes", came the reply, "but I'm just being thankful that we're not studying at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology".

[Yes, I know that it can be abbreviated but don't spoil the story!]

Better get back to the thread ...
 

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Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 
I have come to this thread a bit belatedly, after the posts have had time to build up.

You have my synpathies Angloid and my feelings on this subject are similar to yours. For now (until I peruse over the posts in greater depth), the analogy I sometimes give is that if you go to a restaurant and what you want is off the menu, then go to another restaurant; for me, the same is true of church.

I am not called Ecclesiastical Flip-flop for nothing, and I challenge any vicar to ask me to be churchwarden! No church I find to be perfect and what I miss at one church, I find at another.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well yes, I've heard that when he was Bishop of Southwark Melvin Stockwood had to remonstrate with a vicar who would lecture his dwindling congregation on his model train hobby rather than preach from Biblical texts ...

Thinking about it, Baptist Trainfan ... ?


 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
i don't think a legalistic approach works, and certainly not complaining to the archdeacon or even bishop. Not about specific situations anyway, though some reminders from the hierarchy about the requirements might be in order.

It's not about the letter but the spirit. It is about give and take, horses for courses and all that. It isn't about dull conformity. But unless we are to go completely down the road of congregationalism (as an attitude: I don't intend a slur on current or former denominations of that name), there has to be some form of common practice, which unsurprisingly Common Worship was designed to provide. It is very flexible, but there are requirements that are not always upheld.

I would like to think that every Anglican ought to be able to attend their (geographical) parish church, not necessarily expectingliturgy tailored to their own preferences but to find the basics to enable them fulfil their religious obligations.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I don't think complaining would achieve anything.

The powers-that-be turn a blind eye for pragmatic reasons.

Our parish is considered the most 'successful' in the deanery so no-one's going to start quibbling with them for not observing liturgical niceties.

For my own part, I'm in a cleft stick as I find our parish rather too earnestly evangelical and somewhat dumbed-down and the other parish in town I find more liturgically palatable but rather too liberal ...

I'm an awkward so-and-so ...
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes, I've heard that when he was Bishop of Southwark Melvin Stockwood had to remonstrate with a vicar who would lecture his dwindling congregation on his model train hobby rather than preach from Biblical texts ...

Thinking about it, Baptist Trainfan ... ?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
It isn't about dull conformity. But unless we are to go completely down the road of congregationalism ..., there has to be some form of common practice, which unsurprisingly Common Worship was designed to provide. It is very flexible, but there are requirements that are not always upheld.

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quote:

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I would like to think that every Anglican ought to be able to attend their (geographical) parish church, not necessarily expecting liturgy tailored to their own preferences but to find the basics to enable them fulfil their religious obligations.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
...ISTM that, in practice, many CofE churches are becoming more and more congregationalist in the way they operate (in the sense of "doing their own thing"; the way they take decisions is often very far from being congregationalist)....

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Thus getting the worst of both worlds.
What I can't understand is why, if these bloody buggers want to be Vineyard or RC or whatever, they don't just have the self-respect to sod off and do it. Social status and pension rights seem to be keeping a lot of people in the CofE who really ought, for everybody's benefit, to be finding a more suitable context for their talents elsewhere.
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
So far as I can see the disciplinary solution can only come from bishops ... and the inherent labyrinths of Anglicanism probably mean that few bishops that are appointed are likely to be ones who will kick the arses of happy clappy but numerically self-interested clergy. And so the convolutions go on and the soul of Anglicanism wobbles ...

but I see the faintest hint of change occasionally and wonder if a new Oxford Movement isn't beginning to gestate ... the only thing is that we who are into liturgical/sacramental faith must be prepared to break open the meaning of the texts with us much energy as we break open the texts of scripture - and must do that too ...

which is why the self-indulgent piffle I observed in my own pad yesterday, from someone who thinks I am the pits, was so spiritually debilitating.

But I had a wardens' meeting yesterday, too
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Much though part of me sympathises - I like a reasonable amount of liturgy and an element of dignity - is it the CofE's calling to be Anglican or the Church of England? Do we live to serve the tradition? Or do we see the tradition as something that might help draw a nation that has largely lost interest in the Christian faith, back to God. To put it another way, are we here to re-evangelise the nation or to keep a few old buffers of both sexes like us from feeling too lost in a world that has become increasingly alien?

I happen to think that a lectionary, the Church Year, and a structured liturgy serve the church's mission rather better than relying on whatever bright idea happens to have occurred to the vicar or the musicians that morning. But if

quote:

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a moving and dignified eucharist

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quote:

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tiny congregation and few resources

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
Much though part of me sympathises - I like a reasonable amount of liturgy and an element of dignity - is it the CofE's calling to be Anglican or the Church of England? Do we live to serve the tradition? Or do we see the tradition as something that might help draw a nation that has largely lost interest in the Christian faith, back to God. To put it another way, are we here to re-evangelise the nation or to keep a few old buffers of both sexes like us from feeling too lost in a world that has become increasingly alien?

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quote:

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But if

quote:

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a moving and dignified eucharist

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merely engages a

quote:

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tiny congregation and few resources

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one has to ask whether that's what best advances the kingdom of heaven.

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quote:

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It's because there ought to be a Church which is the Christian presence in every community, which everybody can turn to if they wish. So there ought to be a basic recognisable structure and a liturgy which is just 'there' for people to tune into as and when they feel drawn.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
No, it's because the professional church people, lay and clerical (especially the latter?) have an insufferably patronising view of what the average person can deal with. This fault is not of course confined to the CofE: the BBC, other media, educational institutions, and so on are all to a greater or lesser degree guilty of it too.

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quote:

---

I had a gob-smacked moment a few years ago at the Christmas mass in an up-the-candle but not poker-up-the-bum church, when the vicar chanted the gospel (St John"s prologue) in Latin. His sermon explained his reasons perfectly: this is the ultimate mystery which we can never claim to understand whatever language it is expressed in.

---

Hang on a mo'. On the last page you were complaining that clergy were playing fast and loose with the canons. I don't think that you can have it both ways.
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Yes, you're right, Angloid. Overly intellectual in its emphasis on words and so on: patronising in that they have a low estimation of the kind of words that people can understand.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I had a gob-smacked moment when I saw the house-group notes that our vicar had passed around when they were studying Jonah.

I don't go to any of the house-groups and avoid anything like that at our local parish like the plague, but he usual does some suggested discussion topics to accompany each chapter with activities that people might like to do ...

Imagine my horror when I noticed that one of them suggested that people 'draw a picture of the whale' ...



I mean, this was for adults ...

How old did he think they all were? 12?
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
7, I'd say.
 

---

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The trouble with the liturgies of the CofE in recent time is that no one has ever asked the occasional worshipper what they feel.

All of the tweaking of liturgy has been, we're told, thoroughly researched and teams of bishops and liturgists are sure it is now more 'authentic' than it was - though how moving towards a pattern of supposed 4th century worship can be authentic in a church founded as a semi-reformed entity in the 16th century is puzzling. But at no time do these people ever think to test-drive the services with people who are not habitual attendees.

Frankly, if you want to attract people to a product you don't test out an improved or changed version on people who say they'd buy it anyway.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

I had a gob-smacked moment a few years ago at the Christmas mass in an up-the-candle but not poker-up-the-bum church, when the vicar chanted the gospel (St John"s prologue) in Latin. His sermon explained his reasons perfectly: this is the ultimate mystery which we can never claim to understand whatever language it is expressed in.

---

Hang on a mo'. On the last page you were complaining that clergy were playing fast and loose with the canons. I don't think that you can have it both ways.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Imagine my horror when I noticed that one of them suggested that people 'draw a picture of the whale' ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
I think you are misinterpreting my point. It wasn't about legalism but about being true to the spirit. This priest was naughty but I would defend him in the context of his church and the sermon he gave.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

I had a gob-smacked moment a few years ago at the Christmas mass in an up-the-candle but not poker-up-the-bum church, when the vicar chanted the gospel (St John"s prologue) in Latin. His sermon explained his reasons perfectly: this is the ultimate mystery which we can never claim to understand whatever language it is expressed in.

---

Hang on a mo'. On the last page you were complaining that clergy were playing fast and loose with the canons. I don't think that you can have it both ways.

---

I think you are misinterpreting my point. It wasn't about legalism but about being true to the spirit. This priest was naughty but I would defend him in the context of his church and the sermon he gave.

---

Canon B42 allows services to be held in Latin in various churches and chapels including "places of religious and sound learning as custom allows or the bishop or other the Ordinary may permit". The Vicar could probably have relied on this to read in Latin a part of the service (the Prologue) that everyone would probably know anyway. There appears to be no legal basis for a public reading in the original Greek.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ha ha ... to be fair, Baptist Trainfan, I think his house-group notes did point out that the scripture says that it was a 'big fish' rather than a whale ...

The point, of course, is that we were offered the opportunity to draw a picture of it ...



That said, one of the things I like most about you is your ability to mitigate - rather than militate -

Barnabas62 has that quality too.


 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Meanwhile, in more militating rather than mitigating mood, I've posted something about liturgical awkwardity - to coin a phrase - on the 'Communion on Good Friday' post.

In theory, I don't have a problem with that ... but in practice ... at least how it was done where I am ...


 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Imagine my horror when I noticed that one of them suggested that people 'draw a picture of the whale' ...



I mean, this was for adults ...

How old did he think they all were? 12?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corvo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Callan:
[qb] Originally posted by Angloid:

---

Canon B42 allows services to be held in Latin in various churches and chapels including "places of religious and sound learning as custom allows or the bishop or other the Ordinary may permit". The Vicar could probably have relied on this to read in Latin a part of the service (the Prologue) that everyone would probably know anyway. There appears to be no legal basis for a public reading in the original Greek.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Last night at Maundy Thursday mass in the local Episcopal cathedral: altar dressed in purple, priest wore purple, deacon wore red, no Gloria let alone bells rung during it. After altar was stripped, all lights were suddenly turned off and a loud noise made. (Were they confusing it with Tenebrae?)

---

It might have been the same problem we had - the loud noise was a result of someone walking into a step in the dark.
 

---

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
No, it was clearly a "manufactured" sound from "offstage". I forgot to add -- the choir sang Billings' "When Jesus Wept" -- talk about irony!
 

---

Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
I've thought about splicing some words into that, to read "when the baby Jesus and his Mother wept".
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
It seems to me that all this preaching on Good Friday misses the point.

Words failed. On Good Friday, it was actions, not words.

If I couldn't get to the Liturguy, a Quaker silence might be more fitting.

[ 04. April 2015, 09:39: Message edited by: leo ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
A Quaker silence might be the answer to a lot of liturgical spats.

Because nobody says anything - for the most part - there's nothing to disagree with ...



But you're right.

Interestingly, Mrs Gamaliel who isn't particular 'traditional' or liturgical in her approach, observed to me after the Good Friday evening service where she'd been singing - she helps out with a medieval parish church choir (some of the choristers are pretty medieval too ...):

'It just shows you don't need a 45 minute sermon. The readings, hymns and anthems speak for themselves.'
 

---

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'It just shows you don't need a 45 minute sermon. The readings, hymns and anthems speak for themselves.'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... liturgical spats...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... liturgical spats...

---

Crikey- who wears those? Like gaiters but in seasonal colours, I suppose.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
Too often, we think we have to tell people what to feel. Ask yourself. Do you like it when other people tell you what you should be feeling?

---

Indeed - I don't preach on Good Friday but explain that the Veneration of the Cross is 'an acted sermon'.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Nice one, Leo.

I'll order us both a set of 'liturgical spats' shall I? The colours will be changing soon ...


 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... liturgical spats...

---

Crikey- who wears those? Like gaiters but in seasonal colours, I suppose.

---

... liturgical spats ... - are you sure that's what Gamaliel said? I don't find that.

As for gaiters, in case any shipmate doesn't know, that item of attire was worn by Anglican bishops and other prelates in bygone days and I am old enough to remember those being worn.

---

Oh yes, it's there in Gamaliel's posting. Of course, neither liturgical spats nor gaiters would be worn with ecclesiastical flip-flops...
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Arf! Arf! Arf!


 

---

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... liturgical spats...

---

Crikey- who wears those? Like gaiters but in seasonal colours, I suppose.

---

... liturgical spats ... - are you sure that's what Gamaliel said? I don't find that.

As for gaiters, in case any shipmate doesn't know, that item of attire was worn by Anglican bishops and other prelates in bygone days and I am old enough to remember those being worn.

---

Oh yes, it's there in Gamaliel's posting. Of course, neither liturgical spats nor gaiters would be worn with ecclesiastical flip-flops...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
I gamely trundled off to the 13th-century church, only to find the door locked fast and no one about. I noticed a monthly calendar pinned up in the church porch, helpfully informing me that the Palm Sunday service would take place at 10am in another church in the benefice.

No wonder church attendance is declining if parishes cannot even accurately advertise the set services!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I well remember a service I attended in a Baptist church years ago now where the bloke leading the service - not a minister - had carefully selected the hymns to outline a point he wanted to make about the Trinity.

He introduced the final hymn with, 'We've had the Father and the Son, now we've got a hymn about God the Holy Spirit ...'

Fair enough, at least it was soundly Trinitarian (which isn't true for all Baptists, nor for all Anglicans either, I'm afraid) ... but it came across as a lecture with hymns attached ...

---

But that's better than simply choosing one's favourite hymns, or almost selecting hymns at random from the book ... I wonder if his day job was as a teacher
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sure, I entirely agree, infinitely better than choosing them at random or because he 'liked the tune' ...

I'm not sure this guy was a teacher, but he'd have made a good one.

I don't object to his approach, necessarily - what I do object to are those services where they give you a pen and piece and paper to write something-or-other down when it gets to some point in the proceedings ...

I wouldn't mind so much if that had a didactic purpose, but in my experience it almost invariably doesn't - it's usually some kind of subjective 'response' to what you think 'God might be telling you' or some area you are expected to adjust simply because the preacher thinks we all ought to be doing so ...


 

---

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
infinitely better than choosing them... because he 'liked the tune' ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[tangent] - I like it when people choose songs for things based on the title, first line or first verse only.

Like people who choose She Moved Through the Fair to be played during the signing of the register at their wedding... [/tangent]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[tangent] - I like it when people choose songs for things based on the title, first line or first verse only.

Like people who choose She Moved Through the Fair to be played during the signing of the register at their wedding... [/tangent]

---

A beautiful tune, and very popular for weddings, but one sometimes wonders if people have ever listened to the words. They are markedly inappropriate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


(snip)
Our vicar seems to feel the need to explain everything and whatever the service it takes on a 'stop/start' feel as he breaks in to explain this, that or the other ... even where no explanation is required.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, I entirely agree, infinitely better than choosing them at random or because he 'liked the tune' ...

---

Or because the tunes are Welsh and it's St David's day as I experienced this year.

Carys
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
C'mon, Carys, it's always good to have Welsh tunes ...


 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Meanwhile, continuing a tangent - here's the immortal Sandy Denny with Fairport Convention singing She Moves Through The Fair ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb43-Q70olM
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I've just seen this Mystery Worship report which confirms all my worst fears. I'm not one to use the word 'gravitas' much, let alone lament its disappearance, but I have to ask how anyone would get a glimpse of the transcendent mystery of the Resurrection after visiting this church.
 

---

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
I knew nothing about that church before Torold's report, and feel as if I still know nothing about it.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
I rather tend to agree - one could hardly criticise the report for being too objective, could one?

It's clear that the reporter didn't like the service (fair enough), but it seems to be what "works" there and - dare I say? - draws people in. And the Church does advertise a "traditional Communion" service earlier in the morning (and gives it equal billing on its website). That service might have been more to the reporter's taste, although it will presumably have been very "low" in approach.
 

---

Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[tangent] - I like it when people choose songs for things based on the title, first line or first verse only.

Like people who choose She Moved Through the Fair to be played during the signing of the register at their wedding... [/tangent]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I rather tend to agree - one could hardly criticise the report for being too objective, could one?

It's clear that the reporter didn't like the service (fair enough), but it seems to be what "works" there and - dare I say? - draws people in. And the Church does advertise a "traditional Communion" service earlier in the morning (and gives it equal billing on its website). That service might have been more to the reporter's taste, although it will presumably have been very "low" in approach.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That would have been fine. Unfortunately it comes over to me as "person goes to service that's completely different to the sort of thing they prefer and are used to, doesn't like it very much and says that it's rubbish". Which is not quite the same thing.

One man's meat ...?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
IME whatever your style of worship, what really matters is that you do it carefully and conscientiously and with a bit of thought, aiming to achieve the very best that you can in taht place and on that day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
Whatever happened to the idea that you go to church primarily as your duty?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
That indeed is how the report comes across. But underlying it is the sense that something important has been lost in the flight to informality, and there is a need to discern this and the possible solutions to the problem. The need for mystery and transcendence isn't just a personal preference (though clearly some personalities are more drawn to it than others) but an essential element of liturgy. Insofar as one can judge from an admittedly biased report, it looks as if the pendulum has swung much too far away from that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
What I find transcendent isn't this that or the other but a sense I am taking part in something larger than my tastes - I don't find choral evensong very gorgeous, but I know it is the prayer of the church.

Whatever happened to the idea that you go to church primarily as your duty?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
Whatever happened to the idea that you go to church primarily as your duty?

---

And that going to church isn't primarily about "What I get out of it?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
C'mon, Carys, it's always good to have Welsh tunes ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:
My friend became frustrated with being asked to add a few hymns to fit with the sermon at the very last minute, and so took the initiative himself and started sending the vicar the list of hymns in advance so that an appropriate sermon could be prepared.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
A preacher who takes care that the hymns are coordinated with the rest of the service is being responsible, imaginative and considerate.

An organist who can't play a standard hymn at short notice sounds a bad case of artistic temperament.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Do I detect a hint of irony in what "may friend" said he'd done?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
An organist who can't play a standard hymn at short notice sounds a bad case of artistic temperament.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Most clerics in my experience do not take seriously other members of the congregations contribution to public worship. If they did hymns would be chosen early and readers would know what they were readings days in advance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
Did the offending vicar also change the readings at the last minute? Would I be right in suspecting he is someone who plucks his sermon out of the air somewhere around Friday or Saturday?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
There are a very few occasions which can justify replanning a service at the last minute, somebody being murdered in the parish

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Most clerics in my experience do not take seriously other members of the congregations contribution to public worship. If they did hymns would be chosen early and readers would know what they were readings days in advance.

---

Really? My experience is pretty much the opposite. Most ministers with whom I'm familiar provide the organist/choir director with information weeks in advance about which lectionary passage they anticipate preaching on. When it's my turn to read Scripture, I receive an email mid-week telling me what the passages are. Things are always set by mid-week so that the bulletin can be prepared.

---

At my place the readers' rota is sent out a month in advance.
 

---

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :
 
Yes but if you do not have a rota and preachers do not stick to a lectionary then things can be very different.

I count myself fortunate if I have two days notice. The worst has been mid service. In fairness to that minister that was because another reader did not tell her that she was not going to do it.

Jengie

[ 19. April 2015, 21:03: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Perhaps that's one of the things you need to be careful about if you have the Reformed tradition of every minister as liturgist.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Eh?
 

---

Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes but if you do not have a rota and preachers do not stick to a lectionary then things can be very different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Perhaps that's one of the things you need to be careful about if you have the Reformed tradition of every minister as liturgist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie jon:
Yes but if you do not have a rota and preachers do not stick to a lectionary then things can be very different.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
On the 'bored rigid' thing, that cuts all sorts of ways. I know people who would find an how of happy-clappy praise and worship choruses as the ultimate in bored rigidity ... whereas others would be in seventh heaven at the prospect.

Conversely, what bores the bum of some people in terms of liturgical/sacramental worship feels like bliss to others ...

It all depends on the starting point and the position from which we approach these things. I find golf intensely boring and don't understand how anyone can watch it. Others think it's marvellous.

I daresay, if I could be arsed to spend the time and effort understanding the subtle nuances of golf, I might begin to appreciate its appeal. That doesn't necessarily imply that I would then begin to be an avid watcher/follower of the various tournaments.

I recognise that this is subjective territory and I'm not making any value judgement on people who find whatever kind of worship service 'boring' ... but I'm always tempted to ask those who complain of boredom to state what they would find less boring and more compelling in a church service ...

I mean, what are they actually looking for? Good coffee? Singalongable songs? No songs? Music. No music?

Do they want 3D films on a multiscreen projector?

Do they want a hand-job below the pews?

I mean, I'm sorry to be crude ... but what do they actually want?

---

Actually, it's the kids I find are most bored. I've asked them what they actually want. Not to be there is the answer.

As for me - I find the stereotypical happy clappy as dull, albeit in a different way, as the stiffest high-end rigid liturgy - in both cases I find myself a spectator, seeing something that other people are doing but which, whilst I can go through the motions with them, I am not part of. Hard to define why or in what manner. Fortunately I've found a place where I actually feel part of it, but (a) we're pretty unusual, and (b) half the denizens of Eccles would probably run screaming to the Bishop to have us put down.

So perhaps that's the answer to the "what do you want?" question - it's not so much a matter of style as a matter of not feeling that I actually belong.

[ 20. April 2015, 08:27: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

---

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
As a member of BT's church, I ought to comment that the system he has described above works really well, and is a testament to all the hard work and planning he puts in each week.

I think its true to say that I've never before belonged to a church where regular worship involves coordinating so many people (some with very different opinions on subjects such as music), incorporating some new ideas, developing interesting themes, yet is almost invariably 'joined up', seamless, dignified, and the very opposite of stale.

As far as the readings are concerned, due to lack of a rota, what generally happens is that you get a phonecall from the coordinator sometime on Saturday, to say 'are you going to be at church tomorrow - will you read for us please?' Seems to work OK.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think most of us would be fans of Baptist Trainfan, Gracious Rebel, if we went to his church ...



Meanwhile, @Karl Liberal Backslider ... well yes, I can appreciate what you're saying. I don't particularly feel I 'belong' anywhere either. There are certain styles of worship I feel more comfortable with these days than ever I used to - and I have no desire to go back to standard happy-clappy which was where I was at for a good while ...

But even if I found somewhere which was Seventh Heaven in terms of liturgy/worship etc then there'd be something else that was going to rankle or bite me on the backside ... that's life, that's simply the way it is. It's because we're all people and people are involved.

The trick is to negotiate our way through all that as far as we possibly can.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Got it there in a nutshell, Gamaliel. Those of us who have spent years as 'the professional' in charge of liturgy probably find it worst, when we retire, because we notice things that others don't, or at least don't let niggle them. I suspect the reason many of us retired priests are glad of the offer of a (regular or occasional) 'altar' is not just because of a spiritual imperative to exercise our priesthood, but because we can be in control to some extent of what goes on.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

As for me - I find the stereotypical happy clappy as dull, albeit in a different way, as the stiffest high-end rigid liturgy - in both cases I find myself a spectator, seeing something that other people are doing but which, whilst I can go through the motions with them, I am not part of. Hard to define why or in what manner. Fortunately I've found a place where I actually feel part of it, but (a) we're pretty unusual, and (b) half the denizens of Eccles would probably run screaming to the Bishop to have us put down.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
...Finally, an apology to Albertus: I misread your post as saying that every member, not every minister, regards themselves as a liturgist in the Reformed tradition - this gave me the idea that every member of the congregation would be strongly expressing their liturgical preferences. That would lead to anarchy!

---

 

---

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
<snip>Actually, it's the kids I find are most bored. I've asked them what they actually want. Not to be there is the answer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Well, I'm happy to be corrected on this, and I may have expressed myself clumsily, but I had understood- from postings by Jengie and others over the years- that Reformed churches take very seriously the role of the minister as the planner and shaper of worship week by week. In fact, ISTR Jengie actually saying something to the effect that the Reformed tradition expected every minister to be his/ her own liturgist, though again I'm happy to be corrected if I've misremembered.
Now, it would seem to me that if that is the case, one of the things that the minister would need to remember to do is to work closely and in good time with whoever is responsible for the music to ensure that the worship works in every respect.
That's all I meant and if I have misunderstood what Reformed clergy do, please put me right.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
Among Presbyterians (at least the PC(USA)), there is a shared responsibility between the Session and the minister, where the minister has the last word on some things, the Session on others, and the minister and Session jointly on still others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
[QUOTE] In practice though, I'm not sure this makes much of a difference to the point being discussed—choosing hymns. The rector at the nearby Episcopal church chooses the hymns just like the minister at my church does. To the extent there's any desire by either cleric to coordinate one or more hymns with a sermon/homily, planning ahead is important.

---

The Rector chooses our hymns, and rightly so. They are part of the liturgy and in an Anglican church, that is the responsibility of the rector. Our's does so having regard to the lectionary readings for the day of course, as the sermon is based on those also. He (always "he" still in Sydney, alas) will do so in consultation with the choir director, and takes into account his knowledge of what is popular with the congregation - and most importantly, what the congregation can sing. But we would never have the ultimate choice left to organist or choir director. It's not the job of either.
 

---

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
bump
 

---

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
I have been out of the professional ministry for well over 20 years and it still gets me how sloppy people chancel prance--what we used to call it in seminary.

That said, I like balanced liturgies which tend to use new chants but follow the traditional order. The congregation I attend will change its liturgy about every six months. We are currently using Christ, the Light of the World, written by Marty Haugen. During Eastertide we will go to a Trinity Mass which was written by a former member.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well, we did Palm Sunday today more-or-less by the Common Worship book. No priest was available, so we had Communion from the Reserved Sacrament, but apart from that we had the Palm Gospel, Procession (out in the street, as it's such a beautiful day), Passion Gospel with the congo joining in, suitable intercessions, and some nice hymns.

Even though we are a small congregation (ASA 30-35) with few resources (like the one Angloid described early in the thread), we still try to do things in as seemly and edifying a way as possible, even though some of it may actually be made up on the hoof...

So, a fair start to Holy Week. Attendance was a bit low, but at least three families are away on holiday.

We aim to do the Maundy Thursday Eucharist gathered around the altar in our spacious chancel, as we only get a dozen or so for this service, but we still have the Procession to the Altar of Repose, and a Watch of Prayer until Compline at 1030pm. The 12 noon Liturgy on Good Friday includes the Passion Gospel, Veneration of the Cross, Solemn Collects, and Communion from the Reserved Sacrament. Our visiting priest has offered, bless him, to stay on afterwards to hear Confessions, if required.

We don't now have our own Easter Vigil, but we preface the Easter Sunday Eucharist with the Blessing of the Easter Garden, followed by the Blessing and Lighting of the new Paschal Candle...

...and on Easter Sunday afternoon, we put our feet up...though personally, I would like us to have a short evening Eucharist for them as what really can'tbe there in the morning...

IJ
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I know we are lucky compared to priestless congregations in many countries (or even Bishop's Finger's parish – hope that was just a temporary blip). So I shouldn't moan.

But why should one church, otherwise providing the full Holy Week menu, decide that the Good Friday Liturgy should be replaced by Stations of the Cross? I can't understand this as I've always been taught that the Triduum is really one liturgy in three parts - missing out one of them (arguably and literally the crucial one) is weird.

As for the Easter Vigil, I can understand parishes who put all their eggs (literally) into the Easter morning basket. But not those who begin the Vigil liturgy well before sunset. Or who have a truncated liturgy doing a coitus interruptus before the Eucharist. Or who imply that to celebrate the Vigil is too much bother and only worthwhile for 'those who like that sort of thing.'

If any of these aberrations were caused by shortage of clergy or congregations without resources, I would be more forgiving. In those cases, anyway, it should be quite possible for adjoining parishes to share resources and allow the church's celebration of Christ's victory to take place. I suspect part of the problem are clergy who prioritise 'evangelism' as if it had nothing to do with the central activity of the church. Good liturgy is good evangelism.

Rant over!
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Re lack of priests this morning, we've just gone into interregnum, and, despite our Churchwarden's best endeavours, no-one could be found for today...we are restricted, alas, to male priests only...

This is only the second Sunday since February when this has happened, though. Our two Blue-Scarfed Menaces (i.e. myself and my fellow-Reader) therefore shared the ministry between us.

We don't have a Vigil of our own (it's hard enough to get a congregation for Easter Sunday morning) but we do share in that provided by a neighbouring parish.

I see Angloid's point re the Triduum, though, and tried in my very brief homily today to make the same point that the services are parts of a whole.

IJ
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I don’t think that the ‘full Holy Week menu’ has ever caught on in the C of E.

Because Cranmer stripped everything way, many clergy enjoyed the opportunity to play at being free church by providing titbits like slide shows, stations, sunrise services etc.

When we introduced the revised Roman rituals in the late 1960s, Good Friday never really caught on because of a prejudiced against receiving Communion on that day. Ditto the Easter Vigil for fear of ‘jumping the gun’ for Easter Communion.

People no longer come every Sunday so it’s unusual for them to be inclined to attend 3 weekdays in a row, despite all our teaching them. (Younger clergy simply don’t get it either – they tend to offer what attracts the most punters).

We’ve managed to hold the line here but a crack has appeared in the way we do Good Friday – we do the full Liturgy in one church but they have a ‘last hour’ meditation at the other church – you can choose – pick and mix.
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Cranmer may well have 'stripped away' most of the Holy Week traditions. But his intention appeared to be that the church should still celebrate it, albeit in a highly simplified form. He provided that St John's passion should be read on Good Friday.

I am still amazed at the number of churches (or rather clergy persons) who fail to ensure that this – surely minimal and essential ingredient - is part of their Good Friday worship.

Often compounded when they ignore the Passion on Palm Sunday because they think it's all about the donkey.

And then people like Archbishop Sentamu lament general ignorance about the message of Holy Week and Easter. Not surprising when even churchpeople (even devout churchpeople) don't engage with it.

[ 10. April 2017, 17:34: Message edited by: Angloid ]
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
In the parish where I live the marked Palm Sunday with something called an All-Age Passion Play: a horrified attendee tells me it was home-written and consisted of following the disciples from the Garden of Gethsemane and then imagining what they were feeling over the next 3 days. No mention of cross or crucifixion, only that the disciples were worried that Jesus was being 'punished' and that the Romans were 'cruel'.

For Good Friday they have a Family Activity Service - no details but last year this was when they made their Easter Garden.

All of this is Vicar-led and they are a non-residentiary Canon of our cathedral.
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Often compounded when they ignore the Passion on Palm Sunday because they think it's all about the donkey.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
In the parish where I live the marked Palm Sunday with something called an All-Age Passion Play: a horrified attendee tells me it was home-written and consisted of following the disciples from the Garden of Gethsemane and then imagining what they were feeling over the next 3 days.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Cranmer may well have 'stripped away' most of the Holy Week traditions. But his intention appeared to be that the church should still celebrate it, albeit in a highly simplified form. He provided that St John's passion should be read on Good Friday.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
Bishops Finger puts his finger on it. Apologies to Baptist Trainfan, but I was not in any way criticising you for being faithful to your own tradition.

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No problem -
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
posted by Baptist Trainfan

quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
In the parish where I live the marked Palm Sunday with something called an All-Age Passion Play: a horrified attendee tells me it was home-written and consisted of following the disciples from the Garden of Gethsemane and then imagining what they were feeling over the next 3 days.

quote:

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Is the attender's horror due to (i) the poor quality of home-written drama; or (ii) an apparent "dumbing down" of the Passion story; or (iii) the feeling that there should have been "proper services" which used traditional liturgy? And to what extent did (and do) these activities involve and teach families and children who may not have any other contact with the church and, indeed, our Faith? Would they have come along to an "ordinary" service?

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
The horror was multi-faceted: the home-written bit was dire - as in rhyming couplets as from a cheap greetings card (I've since met 2 others who share this opinion) - and as for 'dumbing-down', one of those present likened it to a badly bowdlerised version of parts of Monty Python's Life of Brian.

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I do have a theory there's a kind of Dunning-Kruger effect that afflicts clergy/ministers/preachers when it comes to poetry: we think we're Byron/Wordsworth/Shakespeare, when in reality we're Hallmark.

Sadly, I think I'm afflicted with this, as well.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Roses are red/Violets are blue/Jesus was nailed/To the cross just for you ?
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Some quotes from the event referred to above (source found a script)

quote:

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His friends were tired, they'd had a long day
All were asleep when he was taken away.

Peter was angry, he felt guilty too,
He hoped he wasn't seen by someone he knew.

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Spiritual nourishment, eh?
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Dear Heavens, it doesn't even scan properly!



IJ
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
You wonder why I don't worship in my own parish (playing commitments allowing, of course)?

From taking over nearly 4 years ago the incumbent has managed to 'lose' 2/3rds of all SS work (no lack of children, just no one to do the work) and the youth club. Servers - a useful thing for children not inspired by SS or youth club - are a thing of the past and the choir has been disbanded.

All of this is taking place in a parish which sees steady population growth, particularly in families with children. On the other hand, nearby parishes with less favourable demographics are benefiting from the steady stream of 'refugees' - which is fine for those already committed to churchgoing, but what about those who aren't who are being turned-off, perhaps for ever?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Just be glad you weren't at this church over Easter:

Worth watching for the fire-extinguishing, although part of me wishes they'd let the set burn down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d-NZaMPZbw&feature=share
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Just be glad you weren't at this church over Easter:

Worth watching for the fire-extinguishing, although part of me wishes they'd let the set burn down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d-NZaMPZbw&feature=share

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quote:

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Originally posted by Albertus:
Roses are red/Violets are blue/Jesus was nailed/To the cross just for you ?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stejjie:
I do have a theory there's a kind of Dunning-Kruger effect that afflicts clergy/ministers/preachers when it comes to poetry: we think we're Byron/Wordsworth/Shakespeare, when in reality we're Hallmark.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Just be glad you weren't at this church over Easter:

Worth watching for the fire-extinguishing, although part of me wishes they'd let the set burn down:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d-NZaMPZbw&feature=share

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quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
... The same is true of family members who feel the poetic muse approaching them at funerals - it should be told to leave in no uncertain terms. (One exception: a poem written by the deceased to be read at her funeral.I braced myself for the horror - but it was simply magnificent).

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