Ship of Fools: MW Report 3014 - St. Luke's, Headingley

Thread: MW Report 3014 - St. Luke's, Headingley Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

http://shipoffools.com/mystery/2017/3104.html

Very interesting report - I didn't realise that there was such a thing as The Lutheran Church In Great Britain (I do know, however, of 'foreign' Lutheran churches, such as the Svenska Kyrkan - Swedish Church - in London). Presumably the LCiGB is not particularly associated with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of England (http://lutheran.co.uk/), which seems to be rather more conservative.

Anyhow, full marks to the little church in Leeds for doing a Good Job.

I did, many years ago, attend a few Lutheran services at St. Anne and St. Agnes in London (before the congregation - part of the LCiGB - moved to St. Mary-at-Hill).

Perhaps the Lutheran churches in this country will expand if and when the Church of England goes all charismatic/implodes/disappears/delete as applicable.....

IJ

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I didn't realise that there was such a thing as The Lutheran Church In Great Britain. . . . Presumably the LCiGB is not particularly associated with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of England.

They appear not to be. The links tab on their webpage states: "There is another Lutheran church in this country . . . ." and gives links to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of England and International Lutheran Council.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Thank you, Miss Amanda - I didn't have time earlier to explore the links.

My recollections of Lutheran services in London are also of an eclectic, welcoming, international congregation, with decent music, and a not-too-unfamiliar liturgy - rather like Headingly, if rather larger numbers-wise!

IJ

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Oddly enough, I find that the former Bishop of the LCiGB (Rt. Rev. Jana Jeruma-Grinberga) is now priest-in-charge of the Anglican church in Riga, Latvia. The Porvoo influence, I guess!

Speaking of which, we now have in this Diocese a Swedish priest, ordained in the C of S, working in the most deprived parish in this town (part of the town centre regeneration involves re-opening a closed church). I gather that another Swedish priest is on the way to assist.

Any other Lutheran pastors out there working in Anglican parishes?

IJ

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

quote:
Any other Lutheran pastors out there working in Anglican parishes?

Having lived for over four decades in Finland, which is overwhelmingly, if nominally, an Evangelical-Lutheran country, I am well familiar with – and enormously appreciative of – the benefits of the Porvoo agreement in enabling and fostering Anglican-Lutheran cooperation. (The town of Porvoo, after which the Agreement is named, is in Finland – also known, in Swedish, as Borgå.)

Last September (2016) my wife and I were on holiday in Latvia and attended the Nordic and Baltic Deanery Synod, which was hosted by Bishop Jana – who is indeed now the Anglican chaplain in Riga.
(NB: a Deanery which comprises 8 countries!)
In our former home town in Finland, the Anglican services are often led by a Lutheran pastor, using Common Worship.
And I have an Icelandic friend, a Lutheran pastor also with Permission to Officiate in the Anglican Diocese in Europe, who served a curacy in an English steel town.

For anglophones and other internationals in the Nordic and Baltic countries, Porvoo has been very good news indeed.

On the downside – the references to other Lutheran churches is a reminder that the Lutheran world is even more institutionally split between conservatives and liberals than the Anglican world.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Well, as the C of E is perennially short of clergy (or so it seems), maybe you Finns, Swedes, et al, could continue to help us out!

I'd be quite happy to have a Lutheran pastor (preferably of a fairly 'high church' persuasion - he needs to be able to swing a thurible at Benediction as well as at Mass!) in charge of our little backstreet A-C parish. Given what I've said about Swedish clergy coming to a neighbouring town-centre parish, maybe that's not so silly an idea...

I do agree that Porvoo is one of the more encouraging features of recent years as regards inter-church relations, inter-communion, etc.

IJ

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :

Keibat, was that a typo, or correct, that the deanery comprises eight COUNTRIES?

You mention the institutional split among the Nordic churches between liberal and conservative tendencies. Could you give me a thumbnail sketch of how that looks, or point me to a website that might do that?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
... Any other Lutheran pastors out there working in Anglican parishes? ...

I know one in Bristol. And I encountered one last year in a CofE religious house, who celebrated using a Porvoo form of joint liturgy.

I'd suspect that the most difficult issue for a Lutheran, or any other non CofE person, about working in an English parish would be getting the hang of the administrative peculiarities of the CofE which most of us probably take for granted - e.g. what an archdeacon does or how to make sure a wedding ends up valid.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

Any other Lutheran pastors out there working in Anglican parishes?

In Canada, the Dean of the cathedral in Winnipeg is a Lutheran pastor. The Dean of the cathedral in Québec City was originally ordained in the EKD, but since that isn't an episcopal church he had to undergo priestly ordination in the Anglican rite to take up the post. In Toronto, conversely, the new pastor of First Evangelical Lutheran is an Anglican priest.

Before being raised to the purple, Susan Johnson, the National Bishop, was an honorary canon of Christ's Church Cathedral, Hamilton, in the Diocese of Niagara.

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
... Any other Lutheran pastors out there working in Anglican parishes? ...
And I encountered one last year in a CofE religious house, who celebrated using a Porvoo form of joint liturgy.

There was a pastor for a few years at the Sisterhood of St John the Divine's convent in Toronto. She made her initial profession with the order but had left when I last visited in the fall.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
... Any other Lutheran pastors out there working in Anglican parishes? ...
I know one in Bristol. And I encountered one last year in a CofE religious house, who celebrated using a Porvoo form of joint liturgy.

Yes – Bristol Diocese has a swapping arrangement with the EKD in Bavaria.
Originally, our church, as the university chaplaincy church, took on a married couple doing a job share. When thy left, we got another clergy couple.

As they fit under the Meissen Agreement, having not been episcopally ordained, their eucharists were advertised as ‘Lutheran liturgy’

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

The German EKD is a very protestant church,it is not Eucharistic centred,in most parishes a monthly event..No vestments,only black preacher gown,even a coloured stole is hardly worn.
Their churches are very beautiful,look sometimes quite catholic,however the worship is low church,the sermon, often very rational is the most important part.
It can happen that the presiding minister is not even ordained,every layman/woman is in some cases allowed to preside at the communion service.
We do not care about the ordination,was said some years ago on t.v. by a well known EKD cleric.
So in many ways this church differs greatly with
the Church of England and the Church of Sweden,which I have visited some years ago,and I have to say that I felt very much at home at their Sunday Eucharist,vestments and a sound Eucharistic Prayer.
In November 2016,the Old-Catholics and the Church of Sweden entered into a full communion,recognising each other's catholicity.
Very similar to the 1931 Bonn Agreement,the intercommunion/now full communion between the Church of England and the Old-Catholics.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

I went to what was advertised as a German Lutheran service many years ago, in the ecumenical church at Playa del Ingles on Gran Canaria. I think it must have been an EKD service - pastor wore a black gown, and (IIRC) a white ruff - would that be right? Liturgy in German, lots of hymns sung sitting (the hymnbook was in that wonderful German Gothic type!), but, again IIRC, the sermon was quite brief.

Fortunately, I have some smattering of German, so was able to join in at least with the hymns. Lutheran Church usually IME = Good Hymns!

(On the following Sunday, Mrs. BF and I attended the evening Spanish/English RC Mass, at which I was invited to read the Epistle - in English, I'm happy to say. There was also a Church of Sweden chapel in the town, and it did occur to me to wonder why they didn't share the ecumenical church building.)

IJ

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
black gown, and (IIRC) a white ruff - would that be right?

Yes, though we got one of ours into a chasuble and the 3 others into coloured stoles.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

White Ruffs are only used in Hamburg.
With regard to vestments,a very few places use them on special occasions,during weekday celebrations,but never on Sunday.
Most of the German Lutheran clergy do not like catholic expressions in their worship.
Why ? I have not a clue.
The US Lutherans follow the Scandinavian pattern.
When visiting recently the website of the Immanuel Lutheran Church in New-York,I noticed the chasuble and acolytes in white albs.
And according to the pastor,this is not a Highchurch parish,just middle of the Road.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on :

EKD is made up of different Landeskirchen. Some of the Landeskirchen are Reformed, some Lutheran, and some United. In Lutheran areas, although the churchmanship is rarely as high as in Sweden and Finland, weekly Eucharist and chasubles, for example, are not unknown.

Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on :

With regard to the divisions within Lutheranism, there are three main bodies in the US: ELCA, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and Lutheran Church-Wisconsin Synod (liberal, conservative, and very conservative, respectively). No two of the churches are in communion with each other. Each of the three bodies is part of an international body (in the case of ELCA, the Lutheran World Federation). I believe that where there are Anglican-Lutheran full communion agreements, it is invariably with a LWF church. There is also now a North American Lutheran Church, a breakaway group from ELCA over the issue of gay ordination. I believe there have been some exploratory discussions between them and ACNA.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Here's a clip from a video of an Easter Hojmesse at a gorgeous little village church in Denmark - note the pastor's ruff and chasuble (which looks as though it may be of some vintage):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4lgAuGHQ3k&list=RDh4lgAuGHQ3k&nohtml5=False#t=310

I assume the rather staid gentleman reading the prayer at the beginning of the service is a churchwarden or equivalent?

IJ

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Thanks for that Bishop's Finger, that's lovely

Right I'm off to Denmark! [Smile]

Posted by Knopwood (# 11596) on :

And here is an honest-to-goodness Corpus Christi celebration, complete with Solemn Mass, Outdoor Procession and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, in Copenhagen. And yes, this is the established Church of Denmark, not exactly a stronghold of the Evangelical-Catholic movement.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Thank you, Knopwood - a delightfully minimalistic church, but with Catholic liturgy done in a seemly and edifying manner! One could only wish for a larger congregation (but don't we all).

The video leads to clips from other services at the same backstreet church, giving me some ideas for a simple Easter Vigil at Our Place next year....

IJ

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

And for your delectation and delight I found this

Whitsun Danish Highmass

Be warned it's a long service
I noticed they sat for the hymns but stood for the readings including the NT Lesson and the Creed followed the Gospel rather than the sermon - as in 1662 actually!
And everything is sung including the NT Lesson and the Prayer of Constipation......

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Same church (Galtrup) as I linked to above. Nice red chazzie (almost rose-pink!).

The church that Knopwood linked to seems to accommodate a variety of worship services/groups - the 'High Church' element being the St. Ansgar Community:

http://www.kingosamuel.dk/

IJ

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Bishops Finger this might interest you

High Mass Service at Odense Cathedral

I don't speak any Danish by the way but I managed to get an inkling. To me it looks very Anglican. Pity they don't do Choral Evensong.......but hey you can't win them all!

One of the differences I think is that the choir are there to support the congregation - I get the impression they don't make an independent contribution as in Anglican cathedral - in other words the services are sung rather than choral

Posted by keibat (# 5287) on :

Pangolin Guerre asked, a while back:

quote:
Keibat, was that a typo, or correct, that the deanery comprises eight COUNTRIES?

Apologies for delayed reply: I've been away.

Perhaps "seven countries" would be more accurate. The Nordic and Baltic Deanery of the Church of England's Diocese in Europe covers, from west to east: Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, and in principle would also cover Lithuania, where however currently there is no institutional Anglican presence.

You also asked:

quote:
You mention the institutional split among the Nordic churches between liberal and conservative tendencies. Could you give me a thumbnail sketch of how that looks, or point me to a website that might do that?

and Sonata3 subsequently posted:

quote:
With regard to the divisions within Lutheranism, there are three main bodies in the US: ELCA, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, and Lutheran Church-Wisconsin Synod (liberal, conservative, and very conservative, respectively). No two of the churches are in communion with each other. Each of the three bodies is part of an international body (in the case of ELCA, the Lutheran World Federation). I believe that where there are Anglican-Lutheran full communion agreements, it is invariably with a LWF church. There is also now a North American Lutheran Church, a breakaway group from ELCA over the issue of gay ordination. I believe there have been some exploratory discussions between them and ACNA.

Sonata3 also pointed out the great variation within the EKD in Germany:

quote:
EKD is made up of different Landeskirchen. Some of the Landeskirchen are Reformed, some Lutheran, and some United. In Lutheran areas, although the churchmanship is rarely as high as in Sweden and Finland, weekly Eucharist and chasubles, for example, are not unknown.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia – i e the mainstream Lutheran church in the country – is very close to the Missouri Synod in the States. e g neither of them ordain women (the Latvian Church introduced it, but very few were ordained, and it has now abolished it again). On the other hand the Latvian Church in Exile does, as is evidenced by Bp Jana.

And you will find a similar range of positions between – and within – the different Lutheran churches in the Nordic and Baltics, including mutually incompatible positions within the same church as well as schisms, on same-sex relationships.

Anglicans and Lutherans collectively do have a great deal in common, as well as some very profound differences.

Posted by Kayarecee (# 17289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Any other Lutheran pastors out there working in Anglican parishes?

On the other side of the pond from you, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (the largest Lutheran church body in the USA, the 'liberal' group from sonata3's post, and a member of the Lutheran World Federation) has a full-communion agreement with TEC, so clergy-sharing between the two denominations (and between the ELCA and the UMC, the ELCA and the Presbyterian Church USA, and a few others) is pretty common. In my little corner of Iowa, I can think of at least two TEC shacks that have ELCA pastors, just off the top of my head, and I suspect that in places where there are more Episcopal churches per capita (With some 80 congregations in the Diocese of Iowa, which covers the entire state, some 50,000 square miles, Anglicans are kind of thin on the ground around here), there are quite a few of them being served by Lutheran pastors. And if the right call were to open up, I wouldn't be opposed to serving an Episcopal congregation either, if they'd have me. =)

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