Ship of Fools: Changed Churches

Thread: Changed Churches Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Not sure if this an Ecclesiantical or perhaps Heavenly subject, but Hosts will decide...

It occurred to me a while ago that several closed churches in this fair city had re-opened for worship in recent years, rather than being demolished, or converted to flats, or what-have-you.

However, the style of worship has changed dramatically, as the following list shows:

1. A former Anglican church, of mild Anglo-Catholic tradition, closed in mid-70s, and became a museum of local life for many years. It is now the Redeemed Christian Church of God's Victorious Family Parish, Abundant Life Centre (!);
2. A mediaeval hospital chapel, much Victorianised, out of hospital use for some years, is now restored, and in regular use by the wonderfully exotic Celestial Church of Christ;
3. A Primitive Methodist Chapel (1893), closed in 1962, used as a garden shed showroom (!) from 1975, is now a Christian Spiritualist Sanctuary of Healing with regular Sunday evening worship;
4. A Bible Church (Bethesda) of 1821, closed as early as 1886 , and used as a Veterans' Club until recently, is now owned/leased by the Christ Embassy Church....who last Sunday celebrated their first global Communion with Pastor Chris....
5. An Anglican church, of Evangelical tradition, which was closed 15-odd years ago, but joined with the nearby URC as a Local Ecumenical Partnership. I gather that the plan is for it to be refurbished as a community resource/worship centre, in conjunction with a new quasi-monastic set-up in the parish (but with the URC building likely to be closed - I wonder who'll buy it??).

All of which ISTM makes the idea of Christian unity an oxymoron, but nevertheless demonstrates the ongoing development of the Christian church as a whole, and the folly of destroying buildings unwanted by a particular denomination!

Without going into long lists, have other Shipmates tales to tell of churches - perhaps long closed - which have enjoyed a new lease of (perhaps quite different) Christian life?

(One sad local loss, IMHO, was a delightful little Church of Scotland kirk, last in use as a children's nursery, but very well-kept. Alas, it's gone, and replaced by a block of flatlets...).

IJ

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I just want to say that what you describe is likely to be a regional development, dependent upon particular demographic patterns.

Also, I think the destruction of church buildings usually occurs once buildings have left church hands, so it's not something that denominations can necessarily control.

Anyway, in my city a closed church is now likely to remain empty for some time until being bought or rented by a new congregation, rather than being used for non-religious purposes in between. More likely still is that it'll be sold to an organisation from another religion, after which point it won't become a place of Christian worship again.

[ 10. February 2017, 15:03: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

(snip)

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

All of which ISTM makes the idea of Christian unity an oxymoron, but nevertheless demonstrates the ongoing development of the Christian church as a whole, and the folly of destroying buildings unwanted by a particular denomination!

Without going into long lists, have other Shipmates tales to tell of churches - perhaps long closed - which have enjoyed a new lease of (perhaps quite different) Christian life?

IJ

Many church buildings around our area have changed hands from traditional denominational congregations to ones consisting mostly of newer communities. That's the demand. French-speaking, communities from Nigeria, Ghana, South America, various caribbean islands and so on.

I used to think that it was a shame that church buildings were destroyed when (at the time) black-led congregations which were thriving needed a home. Now I am not at all sure. Over the past 40 years or more there has been so much 'fission and fusion' as new leaders (almost always self-appointed) have emerged and split congregations. Often this is the result of very minor differences of doctrine, sometimes I suspect it is caused by jealousy. It is too simplistic to suggest that the struggling longer-established traditional congregations would benefit from the presence of those congregating in the new groups but it doesn't seem to me to be a good use of time, talents and treasure.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Yes indeed - to a great extent, the changes I have mentioned were brought about by demographic changes. Mind you, this town has always been cosmopolitan, and still has (small) Jewish and Unitarian congregations - alas, the Swedenborgians and Catholic Apostolics, and their churches, are long gone.

My intention was simply to highlight churches, long regarded as closed and/or derelict, which have in recent times received a new lease of Christian life.

There are churches in neighbouring towns which have been handed over to other faiths (we ourselves have a former Anglican mission church - replaced by a new C of E building - and a former Methodist church, both of which became Sikh gurdwaras), but I am really only interested, as far as this thread is concerned, in changes of Christian styles of worship!

IJ

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

Meant to say ... the changes are taking place under our very noses in some cases! Many 'traditional' church buildings around here have small congregations of other flavours meeting on their premises. This 'helps to pay the rent' as well as to give a home to other Christians. (Not saying I approve.)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

In our town centre there are several disused mediaeval and Victorian parish churches, remnants of the time was very densely populated. Today they are as follows:

1. Tourist Information Centre.
2. Community cafe run by a charity that supports people with learning difficulties (has the oldest peal of bells in the world, recently restored and rung every week.
3. Concert venue and home of the town's band.
4. Bought back by the CofE as a Diocesan conference venue.
5. Bought by Muslim entreprenuer as a multifaith community centre, now derelict following a fire.
6. Huge restoration project almost complete as a "body and soul" centre for MIND.
7. Empty with hopes of becoming a student music venue.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

The two Piskie churches I'm involved with do this. My home church rents to an adventist church three Saturdays a month. (They do proselytizing in the neighborhoods on the other Saturday.) Our homeless ministry church doesn't use the sanctuary most of the time but rents to two churches, one Spanish speaking adventist and one non-denom English speaking Sunday church. The rents support our food ministries. Also some twelve step groups pay nominal fees to use the parish hall. Some churches in our town have become Christian schools.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

Most of the old churches around here are now houses, or in the process of becoming them. A few are ruined (some half buried in dunes, some still visible) and one is lying derelict with its roof removed because the remaining members of congregation didn't want it used for any other purpose.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Many 'traditional' church buildings around here have small congregations of other flavours meeting on their premises. This 'helps to pay the rent' as well as to give a home to other Christians.

There can be problems such as:

- the "renting" congregation becoming bigger than the "owning" one;
- issues over time-keeping, parking, litter;
- matters of power (i.e. the "owning" church calls the shots.

Some situations of course work to the mutual benefit and education of both parties.

One Sunday lunchtime, when serving my last church, I was rung by the Pastor of a group who used another church to meet in. He was very insistent that I saw him at once. When I met him, he not only said, "They're putting us out" but "We'll be using your building next week".

However I knew the context. The other church was planning major building works and had, six months previously, given them notice to look for another venue; which they had ignored. I also knew that, in his culture, "all Christians are brothers and sisters" which meant that, to him, coming to us basically was their "right".

I explained that he had consistently ignored the notice he'd been given by the other church; and that all I could do with respect to my own church was raise it for discussion at our next leaders' meeting. To be honest, I was cross with him, but I realise that a genuine clash of cultures was involved.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

A former church near me is now a Hindu temple

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

The Methodist chapel in Great Walsingham is now an Orthodox church. So is the old Military Chapel at Colchester Barracks.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Of the ones round here I can think of off-hand,
1. Two CofE churches now underneath blocks of flats.
2. Chapel converted into flatlets run by housing association. Not sure what denomination it was.
3. Hall of above now a club.
4. Another chapel demolished about 25 years ago and replaced by commercial premises, now out of use.
5. Chapel that's been all sorts of things, a political club, a club for sports people etc.
6. CofE church now a concert hall.
7. CofE now used by Catholic monastic order as a church, café and homeless accommodation.
8. CofE church closed some years ago. I believe there were negotiations for another denomination to take it over but they never did. It has recently been badly damaged by fire.
9. CofE city centre church used as some Council Offices.
10. CofE city centre church that was until recently a diocesan resource centre, now closed.
11. Historic City Centre Methodist Chapel which no longer has a Sunday congregation but is a Heritage Centre and has some weekday services.
12. Two old city centre churches in hands of Historic Churches Trust.
13. Ruins of several CofE and other churches bombed in WWII.
14. Another chapel converted into flats.

15, There is also a chapel that was for some years a community centre, but that lost its funding and it has now become a chapel again and is very active.

16. There is another one a bit further away that is a circus school. The height of the building enables it to be used for people to learn trapeze.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

This varies greatly by location. Here in the southeastern US, Catholic churches are growing significantly, due to both migration and immigration. The Catholic population has grown in areas that historically had few Catholics. Consequently, one does not see many church closings. In fact, both my own parish and my mother's parish are former Protestant churches purchased by the RC archdiocese.

In both cases the former Protestant congregations outgrew their buildings and moved to much larger facilities. The buildings were remodeled and became Catholic parishes. Both of them are growing, so at some point they, too, may outgrow the same buildings. Mom's parish was a Pentecostal church, and mine was Baptist. Mine is an FSSP parish, where the Traditional Latin Mass and sacraments are celebrated exclusively by priests of the FSSP, so needless to say, its interior renovation was substantial.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

When my American cousins were told that abandoned British church buildings were often put to non-religious use (especially if used as bars or clubs) they were shocked. They come from New York. Would most Americans find such church conversions strange, or does it vary from place to place?

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

This is not new. As long as I can remember Sharon Full Gospel Church has been on Chorlton Road in Manchester. It was, therefore, a surprise when looking through I think the 1880 Congregational Yearbook to find it had once been the home of a Welsh Congregational Church.

I am not muddling it with the big Congregational church that was lower down the road and called Chorlton Road Congregational. That was where the factory owners went while their maids went to the Welsh Cong down the road.

Jengie

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
When my American cousins were told that abandoned British church buildings were often put to non-religious use (especially if used as bars or clubs) they were shocked. They come from New York. Would most Americans find such church conversions strange, or does it vary from place to place?

It's not completely unheard of in the states, but it is rare enough that I think it fair to say that most would indeed find it strange.

[ 10. February 2017, 21:58: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by decampagne (# 17012) on :

There's a (grand and imposing) former church - actually the former chapel of a former Anglican boarding school that has now closed down and mostly been demolished - round here that now serves, mostly, as a dentists' surgery. It's retained some of the original fittings, and all of the stained glass and high ceilings, so is anything but a run-of-the-mill dentists. I think there had been hopes that it would become some kind of community centre after the school closed - but that really was a high and unrealistic hope in context. But if you want to have a tooth taken out in a beautiful setting....

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Eh? I have seen US churches converted into condos, into restaurants, and into community centers. Most of the smaller sadder ones get demolished outright. Because the property is usually zoned for a church it is far easier to convert it into a nonprofit of some kind but it is fairly common to see churches converted into residences. There was one in DC just recently, the building purchased from the congregation (which was moving out into the suburbs) and then divided into flats.

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :

I have to confess a slight queasiness when I see a church converted into residences. I'm not certain that I could live there.

There were an Anglican church and a Presbyterian church very close together - almost directly across the road from one another - and both quite large. The larger of the two, the Presbyterian church, quite a large complex, is now a Hare Krshna centre. I've been for dinner - "I love what you've done with the place."

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

\Here's an article about how to convert churches into condominiums. There are hundreds in the DC area alone, and if sensitively handled it seems to work well.

And, more helpfully, here's an extensive photo gallery of the church, both before and after the conversion. I think it is better to respectfully reuse the building rather than let it crumble into rubble.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

The uses to which old churches can be put are, indeed, Legion (and sometimes very creative).

However, I was rather looking for examples of churches which have 'changed tack' denomination-wise, perhaps after a period of closure, dereliction or secular use. I noted one in my OP which was last used as a church over 40 years ago...

IJ

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

There's the Samuel Peto pub in Folkestone (formerly Rendezvous Street Baptist Church). The name is appropriate as Peto was a Baptist railway-builder. I worshipped there in 1972!

There is also Chapel 1877 in Cardiff - which I first saw on BBc's "Casualty"!

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The uses to which old churches can be put are, indeed, Legion (and sometimes very creative).

However, I was rather looking for examples of churches which have 'changed tack' denomination-wise, perhaps after a period of closure, dereliction or secular use. I noted one in my OP which was last used as a church over 40 years ago...

IJ

I think the lack of such stories posted here indicates that this trajectory is not as distinctive as perhaps it used to be. Certainly, IME church buildings that are converted into something else don't become churches again. This is due to many Christians having left the area, or to simple secularisation.

Also, you're assuming that new churches are inevitably going to want to use traditional buildings. I think that's less and less the case. New evangelical groups often want something that's easier to maintain, or a modern, flexible space that's less off-putting to their target group.

However, I can think of church buildings that have switched from one denomination to another:

Baptist to Church of God in Christ

Salvation Army to Lighthouse Chapel International

CofE to Redeemed Christian Church of Christ

Christadelphian to United Christian Universal Church of the Kingdom of God.

etc.

Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :

In Portland, Maine, there is a large downtown church that was closed several years ago when its Methodist congregation merged with another parish on the periphery of the city. A culinary entrepreneur bought the building, removed the pews and the chancel furniture, but otherwise retained the religious ambience. He established a restaurant called Grace, which has come to have a reputation as one of the best eateries in the state.

Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :

In Woolwich the Hindu Temple used to be St Nicholas Mission Hall, the Gurdwara used to be the biggest Methodist church and the New Wine church used to be a cinema. The hall of St Patrick's school used to be a Baptist church. However, the mosque is purpose built.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Of the ones round here I can think of off-hand,

w
There's also a chapel that is now a Hindu temple.

Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on :

Rumour has it that this bar as well as previously housing a steeplejack's business was originally an independent chapel.

Previous churches do not necessarily conform to our preconceptions.

Jengie

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

There is a Korean Christian church in this area which I think has the right pig by the ear. They simply built a shopping center and attached office building. (I am certain someone in the congregation is a smart developer.) There is a bustling grocery store, a row of thriving restaurants, dentists, etc. at the front. The church has the office building at the back. They worship on the bottom floor and the upper floors (it is only 4 stories high) are a church preschool, offices, etc.
This has many advantages. Catering is easy; offsite meetings can take place in any of the restaurants. The younger set always have a place to hang out; the seniors know where Coffee Hour is. There's masses of parking, especially on Sunday mornings.
The costs of the entire thing are supported in great part by the tenants. It is hugely flexible; any time they need more rent then can throw some of the offices onto the market and rent them to accountants or dentists or something. Whenever their congregation ages out or moves further into suburbia they can up sticks and move, renting out the rest of the space to somebody or other and finding new digs in the new area.
The only down side is that there is no architectural indicator that says 'church' -- no statue of Jesus, stained glass windows, steeple, etc. The gigantic banner spanning the width of the building with the name of the church on tells you where you are.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Amazingly, this ordinary-looking old shop (now a cookery school) was an early Dissenting chapel. Even today it has some graves in the back garden"

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I read somewhere that occasionally chapels were built to look like houses so that they could be easily converted if they didn't take off as places of worship.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

There's an old church in Devonport which has been converted into a rather impressive library, for the local community and also to house a sizeable naval collection. There is a very high ceiling, so room for a mezzanine floor with a small chapel. Therefore, church services can still take place, for the two or three who gather together. But the main focus of the church building is now for community use and education.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

To return to the OPer's intention. 40 odd years ago saw the establishment of the Uniting Church here. That took in virtually all congregations previously Methodist or Congregational, and most Presbyterians. A natural result of that was to leave many suburbs or towns with surplus buildings. Around here, in one suburb the Uniting Church retained the forme Presbyterian, a rather attractive and substantial romanesque construction, while the continuing Presbyterians got the old Methodist building, very drab and a suitable place to think of dour Scots towns etc. In another suburb, the former Presbyterian church has become a Korean Baptist building. This has occurred in many other suburbs as well.

The prime example of a change to non-church use is the forner Mildura Methodist Church which is now, in a fruit-growing district with seasonal work, the local Labour Exchange; not a style of building one would normally associate with Methodism, more the Amalfi coast.

Posted by Cathscats (# 17827) on :

The Baptist church my family attended when I was a child needed a larger building. Down the road there were two Church of Scotland buildings, both large, literally next door to each other (thanks to the Disruption). They were merging and one building was offered to the Baptist church at a nominal fee. On the day the Baptists moved in they gained half a dozen elderly worshippers, who had always sat in these pews and had no intention of going to church anywhere else, nor even sitting anywhere else in the building!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

A neat arrangement - I wonder if the old stalwarts noticed the change of management?

I suppose they might have done, if the Baptists proceeded to dig a hole under them, new full immersion baptistery for the installation of...

IJ

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

You may say that ,,, but the church I serve basically did just that, when a URC and Baptist congregation came together in the former's building. (The Baptist Church was demolished and senior housing built on the site, however we still get ground rent on the site).

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

When I visited Tobermory (isle of Mull), there was a beautiful building which had been a church at one time and was later a shop.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Ennismore Gardens, London was an Anglican church, although now Orthodox for many years.

The Orthodox church of St Anthony, Holloway, was a Welsh chapel. The wonderful Archimandrite Ephrem Lash was parish priest there at the end of his life.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

There is a Greek Orthodox church in Wood Green which was once a Catholic Apostolic church.

I knew Ephrem; he had a certain "presence" about him and a keen mind. He was once wearing a rather nice pectoral cross which had got a bit bent ( like the one on the Hungarian crown). I asked him if there was any significance in this. "Oh", he said, "It must have got a bit biffed".

[ 13. February 2017, 07:15: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by ostrich84 (# 18691) on :

Near us, though not sure exactly how it happened, it appears a CofE congregation swapped their large historic building with the nearby Elim Pentacostal church, who had a much smaller modern (maybe 1970s) building. Then at some stage, Elim seem have divided up the church vertically, so there is now a large day nursery (not run by the church) above the main worship space. I've never been in the lower level (ie the bit that's still a church), but am guessing it must look a bit odd.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

The Baptist Church in a small town near here sold their building to a developer and it's now flats. They bought the URC church nearby which was on its last legs; the URC denomination in fact wanted to gift the the building to the Baptists but this was scotched by the Charity Commisison who said that the URC had to "realise its assets". Nevertheless, due to certain local factors, it was able to be sold at a very reasonable price. Since then the Baptists have carried out an ambitious and tasteful refurbishment and extension programme.

[ 13. February 2017, 09:20: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

A credit to both denominations, I think.

Locally, the Catholic Apostolic Church was closed in 1948, used as a paper store until 1959, and finally taken over a couple of years later by the Seventh-Day Adventists (quite a change of style!). Alas, the rather neat little Catholic Apostolic building was subsequently demolished, and replaced by a new SDA church on much the same site.

A stone's throw away, the former Presbyterian Church ceased to be used after the formation of the URC, and was eventually taken over by the King's Church, with whom it remains and flourishes (they've taken over nearby buildings for their community outreach work).

IJ

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

Has anyone done a comprehensive account of what became of the Catholic Apostolic church buildings?

The Dundee one was acquired by the Scottish Episcopalians:

St Mary Magdalene Dundee

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

In Marston parish in Oxford the daughter church outgrew its premises and moved to a new building; for years the old building was used as a sort of workshop/garage; but is now

St Nicholas the Wonderworker

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

The first Catholic apostolic church in Edinburgh was in Broughton St,but the community outgrew the building. It has been for many years as commercial premises. The community built a larger church down the road from its first church.
When the Catholic Apostolic church community came to an end, the building or at least the baptistery was used by a Baptist group and then the building became a sort of cultural centre and wedding venue.It retains the wonderful (religious )murals by Phoebe Traquair as well as a splendid baldacchino over the spot where the high altar was.

In keeping with the wishes of the Catholic Apostolic community the altar, the lectern and the episcopal sedilia were given as a gift to the nearby St Mary's metropolitan cathedral.As this was just at the time of the remodelling of the cathedral in the wake of Vatican 2 the altar was of great use. The sedilia can still be seen but are rarely used for present day pontifical functions.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Has anyone done a comprehensive account of what became of the Catholic Apostolic church buildings?

The Dundee one was acquired by the Scottish Episcopalians:

St Mary Magdalene Dundee

They had 2 in Bristol - one is now RC, the other Russian Orthodox.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

A shrinking Lutheran congregation in my neighborhood sold its building to a Buddhist monastery: http://buddhajewel.org/

The Lutherans are now in a storefront location a few blocks away.

Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :

For many years in Louisville KY there was a RC convent & girls' school. The school eventually closed and the sisters returned to their mother house. The school wing was put to commercial purposes but the (rather large) red-brick gothicky chapel remained empty. It was eventually opened as a (fairly posh) restaurant called 'The Chapel.' The sanctuary remained as it had been, but roped off from public access. The food servers were dressed more-or-less as Franciscan friars. The project had some success for several years, but the lack of adequate parking and the not-so-great neighborhood eventually did them in.
Building stood vacant for several more years.
Recently driving by, I saw that the sign had been changed to 'Messianic Synagogue'; exactly what this means I know not.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Presumably, something to do the movement described by Wikipedia thus:

'Messianic Judaism is a syncretic movement that combines Christianity — most importantly, the Christian belief that Jesus is the Messiah — with elements of Judaism and Jewish tradition, its current form emerging in the 1960s and 1970s.'

That would be an interesting place for a Mystery Worshipper to visit, no?

IJ

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
... That would be an interesting place for a Mystery Worshipper to visit, no? ...

Don't you mean 'nu?' [Snigger]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

And the Methodist church at Great Walsingham is now the Russsian Orthodox church of the Transfiguration.

The former church of the Agapemonites in Clapton is now a church of the Georgian Orthodox.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I need to learn more, much much more, about the Agapemones. Can anyone recommend books? (Put it in a message to avoid clogging this thread.)

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I need to learn more, much much more, about the Agapemones. Can anyone recommend books? (Put it in a message to avoid clogging this thread.)

Oh no. Please post it, even if it is a tangent. Spaxton's not all that far from here.

There's a list of texts etc on this wiki page, but if any shipmates know anything about them, it would be great to know.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

John Betjeman had a section about them in his programme "Metroland".

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Astonishingly (to me), Hugh Smyth-Piggott's granddaughters are still alive and a lawsuit about the Agapemone's funds was decided last December.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Good gracious! Someone is going to have the interesting task of finding out what bodies now most closely resemble the Agapemonites, in order to distribute the dosh... [Help]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

It would have been easy back in the 70s, they could have sent it to David Berg's "Children of God"/"Family of Love".

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

This is probably apocryphal, but I was told the story by one East Ender of how Smyth Piggot was nearly lynched by an angry mob after he failed to turn Clapton Pond into wine, as he had promised.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Clapton is very much an in-betweener area - in the current London Borough of Hackney, but not East End and not trendy North London either.

It was probably more up market when the Agapemonites moved in.

[ 15. February 2017, 08:54: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I think the words you are looking for are "edgy", "buzzy" and "vibrant".

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Thank you. Trendy is a very dated term now, other than in The Daily Telegraph letters column (presumably - I haven't looked at it for years).

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

The other word I perhaps could have added was "gritty". Mind you, I haven't actually been to Clapton for many years!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Areas in London go up market with surprising rapidity, so for all I know Clapton is now a yuppies paradise, with a sprinkling of Georgian Orthodox clerics.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I don't know. But Zoopla (that ever-reliable guide to house prices) says that the average value of a property in the area is £516,823.

Well, that's what it was five minutes ago, anyway.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
This is probably apocryphal, but I was told the story by one East Ender of how Smyth Piggot was nearly lynched by an angry mob after he failed to turn Clapton Pond into wine, as he had promised.

Apochryphal? It's perfect! I adore it and will happily repurpose it.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I don't know. But Zoopla (that ever-reliable guide to house prices) says that the average value of a property in the area is £516,823.

Well, that's what it was five minutes ago, anyway.

How does that compare with Stoke Newington or Finsbury Park?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

A new 2-bed apartment in Stoke Newington will set you back about £600k.

[Help]

BTW, the former hospital chapel I mentioned in the OP has recently been vacated by the Celestial Church of Christ (why, I know not - maybe The Rapture occurred, but just for the CCC?). It's advertised as being To Let, so I'll be interested to see who (or what) takes it on.

IJ

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

Talking of hospital chapels:

St Luke's Chapel

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

The Asylum Chapel, which was certainly in regular use in the 1960s (college chaplains found it an agreeable excursion) is now home to Capoeira classes (Capoeira is an Afro-Brazilian mix of dance, fight, music, song, tradition, theatre, and more.)

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Talking of hospital chapels:

St Luke's Chapel

I rather liked it when it was a chapel though...

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

Actually, to pursue the Oxford tangent, in addition to the RI chapel, St Nicholas the Wonderworker and the chapel at the Warneford....

PhilJim (St Philip and St James, 1860s, GE Street) on the Woodstock Road became the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies in 1983.

St Paul's (1830s Greek Revival) in Walton Street was deconsecrated in the 1960s and is now a restaurant/cafe/bar.

St Peter-le-Bailey, New Inn Hall Street, became a college chapel in 1961.

All Saints, High Street, has been Lincoln College library since 1971.

St Peter in the East, Queen's Lane, which is 12th century, became St Edmund Hall's library in the 1970s.

St Cross Holywell (11th century) is now an archive for Balliol College. It closed as a church in 2008.

Thankfully many others soldier on...

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

PhilJim (St Philip and St James, 1860s, GE Street) on the Woodstock Road became the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies in 1983.

Ah, the first parish of which I was a churchwarden.

But returning to chapels, the chapel of St Basil's Home for Aged Women (corner of Iffley Road and Magdalen Road; controlled by Clewer Sisters) became in 1965-ish the common room of Exeter College's graduate house. Dr Kemp advised against enquiring too closely about its consecration status.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

Lord Nuffield's St Luke's became the Oxfordshire History Centre.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

Thankfully many others soldier on...

Although St John the Baptist finally after six centuries slipped into the complete control of Merton College.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

The first edition of All Saints Highfield (whose vicar will soon be celebrating his sixtieth year in the incumbency) has been for many years the local Scout Hut -- visible over the garden wall as I type this.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
Lord Nuffield's St Luke's became the Oxfordshire History Centre.

yes, I'd forgotten St Luke's - I've always rather liked it architecturally, in a sort of local authority design way.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Drove past the site of a church in Sterling, Virginia today. It was an old building, boarded up for at least five years now, and with a number of interesting bits of stone in the yard -- some columns and lintels. All of a sudden they are gone and the building has been bulldozed. The hoarding at the front says it is going to be a bank.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

A savings bank?

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
A savings bank?

Perhaps my best laugh of the day.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

PhilJim (St Philip and St James, 1860s, GE Street) on the Woodstock Road became the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies in 1983.

Ah, the first parish of which I was a churchwarden.

But returning to chapels, the chapel of St Basil's Home for Aged Women (corner of Iffley Road and Magdalen Road; controlled by Clewer Sisters) became in 1965-ish the common room of Exeter College's graduate house. Dr Kemp advised against enquiring too closely about its consecration status.

Good grief - I lived next door to that - the alleyway went between my kitchen wall and the building you're talking about - for 3 years and always assumed it was an old stable block!

(from the Magdalen Road/Stanley Road alleyway side it's a very plain 19th century wall with small high up windows, I'm not a complete idiot - certainly nothing like a chapel)

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

This has made me start thinking about the New Zealand scene.

One village I pass through on the main highway once had three small churches. One is now a craft shop, one was moved (not difficult when they're all small wooden buildings) to be a university chapel, and the catholic church is now shared with two other denominations.

Up and down the country, little old churches have become cafés, craft shops or private homes.

When I was a baby (early 1930s) a farmer cut up a seaside tract of land for residential/retirement/holiday building. My grandmother bought a section and my father the adjoining one, on which he built what was basically a large garage with bunks at the back and a kitchen/living area one side. Church services were held there or in members' homes. Then Gran heard that a prominent corner site might be bought for a dance hall. She either bought it herself or persuaded the Presbyterian church to buy it. Two old army huts were brought to the site and converted into a church building, where Gran played the organ and her eldest, unmarried daughter organised the Sunday School. Every Saturday Gran had a cake stall under the macrocarpa tree by the shops to raise funds.
Eventually people began to prefer to be part of a larger congregation and moved to the next Presbyterian church a few miles up the coast – Gran's generation of old folk without cars had died out. There was a final service in the church, and it became a comfortable private home.

GG

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

St John the Evangelist Iffley Road became the college chapel for Staggers - who themselves had taken over the Cowley Fathers' mission house and chapel in Marston Street.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

The chapel of the old Workhouse in East Oxford is now incorporated in the Asian Cultural Centre and seems to be the base of the Oxford Soup Kitchen; the vicar of SS Mary and John said mass there on Saturday mornings until the mid-seventies.

The former Unitarian chapel in Percy Street was bought and used as a parsonage/church hall by St Alban's in the parish of SS Mary and John.

I do not know what became of the Chapel at the top of the Mission House at 14 Magdalen Road; when I was last there in the late 1970s all the stained glass panels were heaped up on one side and the stalls and altar in disarray. I suppose it's now just another room in the house.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Good grief - I lived next door to that - the alleyway went between my kitchen wall and the building you're talking about - for 3 years and always assumed it was an old stable block!

(from the Magdalen Road/Stanley Road alleyway side it's a very plain 19th century wall with small high up windows, I'm not a complete idiot - certainly nothing like a chapel)

You must have been within spitting distance of the dear kind sisters' morgue; I think it became a store-room---probably now a study-bedroom!

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