Ship of Fools: MW Report 3195

Thread: MW Report 3195 Board: Ecclesiantics / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

In Ordination of Deacons, Birmingham CathedralThe MW'er got told off for returning from communion the wrong way. There is a goods reason for this -anyone ever been there? Very narrow aisles.

Since I have been disabled, I find getting to the rail a nightmare with lots of people coming towards me against the flow. I don't have the agility to move sideways.

[ 03. July 2017, 17:45: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Yes, but "told off quite rudely by a chaperone for returning to my chair from the wrong direction"? Like the MWer did it on purpose just to be disruptive?

Why not "Sorry, but you really should have used the other aisle."

A little Christian charity, please, in the house of God.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

Perhaps they should have had more ushers politely directing the flow of traffic to make it easier for all concerned.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

Given that it was a one-off kind of service with many one-time visitors I struggle to see any point at all in telling off someone for returning to their seat the wrong way. It was not as if it was going to enable/ encourage them to get it right next time.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I struggle to see any point at all in telling off someone for returning to their seat the wrong way.

I can understand the frustrated sidesperson having had to put up with a morning full of dealing with unchurched people who don't have a clue what to do, and finding an easy target against which to vent one's pent-up rage . . . but it's still no way to behave in God's house.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

A note in the program, and an announcement at the start of the service might have been helpful. I agree we do not tell off people in our Lord's house. We wait until they get to the Parish Hall and then we hiss and stare.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
...I agree we do not tell off people in our Lord's house. We wait until they get to the Parish Hall and then we hiss and stare.

Well, unless they sit in "our" pew. Then we make loud comments about the NERVE of some people!

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Very narrow aisles.

The aisle in the picture looks like it would take a coach.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Okay ... naughty hat on ... but it has been my discovery in recent years that some (¿many?) gate-keepers in any cathedral have a tendency to see themselves as slightly more important than the Holy and Most Blessed Trinity.

I can only speak for Mother Cantuar (international branches) but there does seem to be a pattern to it. Stick a bishop's bum-pozzie in a Big Building and suddenly it's all about us.

So the MW's observations do not surprise me.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Does "chaperone" refer to an usher or the career of an individual member of the congregation?

I have never heard it used of an user.

Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on :

I used to regularly attend large communions at Canterbury Cathedral, which has very orchestrated queuing systems to reach various altars in use.

I can absolutely see how someone might feel that they were "told off" by a sides-person, I too have noted that they sometimes act in rather strict ways.

That said, I've also seen people completely ignore them, stand in whatever queue they fancy and then continue ignoring the whispered irate comments from the staff.

If one attends regularly enough, I think one maybe learns the idiosyncrasies of particular buildings and tends to ignore people being jobsworths.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Very narrow aisles.
The aisle in the picture looks like it would take a coach.

Have you been inside there? It's a tiny Georgian parish church upgraded to a cathedral.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

The photo shows the centre aisle of the nave. It may well be that the MWer was in a side-aisle, which, as leo hints, may not be all that spacious, given the Cathedral's origins...

The main emphasis of the Report, though, ISTM, is the sheer joy of welcoming many new Deacons into the church, and the encouragement which that brings. Many of us in backstreet parish ministry in the C of E today sometimes feel as though we're pissing into the wind, so it's good to be reminded that there's life in the Old Girl yet!

IJ

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

It's not that small. It's small compared with other cathedrals, but as an C18 civic church, it's average to large.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

I haven't been there, but the photos I can find online all look reasonably spacious on the inside to me.

I'll take the word of someone who's been there for it, but from the photos it looks like the aisles could accommodate two lines of traffic. Even if they are narrow, as others have said, that is no excuse for officiousness.

It reminds me of a dysfunctional SoF quote;

quote:
If we must have visitors, can they please be kept away from my seat

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's not that small. It's small compared with other cathedrals, but as an C18 civic church, it's average to large.

Quite, but as the principal church of a city of over 1m people, when Birmingham does civic it gets uncomfortably full rapidly... Possibly this makes the sidesmen a little more attuned to following the procedures at all times even when not doing something full on Lord Mayoral and Corporation.

Worth mentioning, while we're talking about the size of St Philips, that St Martins-in-the-Bull-Ring is/was preferred for a lot of services as it's just got that bit more room.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

BTW, for those who haven't been, the exceptional stained glass alone makes it well worth a visit.

Posted by american piskie (# 593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's not that small. It's small compared with other cathedrals, but as an C18 civic church, it's average to large.
[del]

Worth mentioning, while we're talking about the size of St Philips, that St Martins-in-the-Bull-Ring is/was preferred for a lot of services as it's just got that bit more room.

St M-i-t-BR was not in the past short of over-zealous sidespeople: I attended an ordination there once and had great difficulty persuading one that my children had come to see the ordination, not attend a silly activity session on ordinations. The previous year the ordinations were in St Paul's in the Jewellery Quarter where the box pews gave the ushers the advantage: not until they unlocked the doors could we make a move.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I can't now remember whether it's at the end of The Kindly Ones or the start of The Valley of Bones that Anthony Powell writes of the last day of peace before WW II. At the usual hour, beadles were hurrying people out of churches and preventing fresh entry - Jenkins ponders that it's really time to leave the churches open. So officiousness by sides-people and beadles is not exactly new.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by american piskie:
The previous year the ordinations were in St Paul's in the Jewellery Quarter where the box pews gave the ushers the advantage: not until they unlocked the doors could we make a move.

Now St Paul's is a *lovely* church (and another that's probably bigger than St Philip's) - but your experience does highlight efforts in Birmingham to *not* use the cathedral! It's beautiful, but it's vastly too small for a city of its size when it comes to the big civic/religious events.

Sunday to Sunday, of course, it's fine....

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I can't now remember whether it's at the end of The Kindly Ones or the start of The Valley of Bones that Anthony Powell writes of the last day of peace before WW II. At the usual hour, beadles were hurrying people out of churches and preventing fresh entry - Jenkins ponders that it's really time to leave the churches open. So officiousness by sides-people and beadles is not exactly new.

Ditto in Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy, where Guy Crouchback goes to Westminster Abbey to view the sword that is going to be presented to Stalin.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
BTW, for those who haven't been, the exceptional stained glass alone makes it well worth a visit.

It's been over 20 years since I've been there, but I was very unimpressed by the stained glass. I had spent three weeks visiting Cathedrals all over England and was very disappointed with Birmingham. YMMV, of course.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
it looks like the aisles could accommodate two lines of traffic. [quoted elsewhere] Visitors, can they please be kept away from my seat

Yes - 2 queues going UP to the rail - no room for people coming back down again.

[Edited to fix coding and second quote]

[ 05. July 2017, 16:04: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

Judging by the middle photo in the report, the cathedral was arranged in 'collegiate' fashion, with the chairs facing the centre line of the nave. The people looking at the presentation of the candidates seem to be turning to their left or right. This was the arrangement when I was there for the welcome of a new Bishop of Aston a few years back.

I would think that this arragement might make the the need for a good flow of the communicants even more necessary: up to the front in the centre, and then back to seats down the side aisles.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I can't now remember whether it's at the end of The Kindly Ones or the start of The Valley of Bones that Anthony Powell writes of the last day of peace before WW II. At the usual hour, beadles were hurrying people out of churches and preventing fresh entry - Jenkins ponders that it's really time to leave the churches open. So officiousness by sides-people and beadles is not exactly new.
Ditto in Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy, where Guy Crouchback goes to Westminster Abbey to view the sword that is going to be presented to Stalin.

I'd forgotten that - but then again, Waugh's WW II trilogy is a lot less memorable than Powell's.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Perhaps they should have had more ushers politely directing the flow of traffic to make it easier for all concerned.

Quite. Telling someone off after the event like that is a waste of time, unless part of your 'ministry' is making people feel unwelcome and small for making a mistake.

Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I can't now remember whether it's at the end of The Kindly Ones or the start of The Valley of Bones that Anthony Powell writes of the last day of peace before WW II. At the usual hour, beadles were hurrying people out of churches and preventing fresh entry - Jenkins ponders that it's really time to leave the churches open. So officiousness by sides-people and beadles is not exactly new.
Ditto in Waugh's Sword of Honour trilogy, where Guy Crouchback goes to Westminster Abbey to view the sword that is going to be presented to Stalin.
I'd forgotten that - but then again, Waugh's WW II trilogy is a lot less memorable than Powell's.

Well YMMV obviously - personally I've always thought that Powell's cycle really hits the high points in 8-10 rather than 7-9 (FWIW), but then I think A Dance to the Music of Time was at its best when he gets onto writing about Fusion and the immediate post-war literary world. (X Trapnel was responsible for me really getting into Julian Maclaren-Ross in much the same way as Hugh Moreland turned me on to Constant Lambert).

I think that Waugh's trilogy is quite flawed, but, within that, book 1 is good, and book 2 is the best WW2 literary fiction I've read. Book 3, I'll grant you, is very far from great.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

I'm afraid that for me, you can see in Sword of Honour just why Auberon waugh was as vitriolic as he was, all the petty snobbery that Evelyn had used so effectively as a target in his earliest books has become a goal in itself.

BTW, I've recently been re-reading Michael Barber's biography of Powell on my daily train travels (and some overnight stays away from home). Like Dance, it's something I regularly come back to. Now on to work.

[ 09. July 2017, 21:53: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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