quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Bishops should be pastors, godly people, caring for the clergy with whom they share a cure of souls, and with a vision that inspires those clergy. What do we have instead? With a few - a very few - notable exceptions we have bureaucrats, spineless pen pushers, whose only care is to keep their noses clean so that may advance higher up the episcopal ladder.

---

Yep - 99% of them are just politicians going by another name.
 

---

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
I don't know about the CoE, but in my diocese our diocesan has done several things for our church and priests.

First, we had a priest who had some ideas and plans that a few of our more proprietary members became more and more angered by. It got so bad that she was badly bullied and yelled at by irate visitors to the vestry meetings. And it was pretty likely that some serious vandalism to her property was perpetrated by someone from our church who had gone off the deep end. The bishop came down like a hammer on the individuals who had gotten seriously out of line- not the ones who reasonably disagreed with her, but the yellers and the threateners. And he saw that she got some security measures for her house. A later rector served ably for about five years, but ran into serious health issues that made it very difficult physically and emotionally for him to serve a parish full time, so the bishop channeled him into a program that let him continue to work as a priest, but didn't over-tax him.

And right now he has started a program to rescue our church and two other churches in the area from dissolution (the recession, you know ) by assigning us the services of five priests, and guiding us through discernment of what are our calls to ministry to our communities. He is a great one for making lemons into lemonade. He does have a mind of his own, though, and if you don't want to get stepped on, get out of the way!

I apologize for not adding to the rant. I actually just wanted some of you lot to feel envious.
 

---

Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
As a certain shipmate has recently discovered, rants posted on the ship have a way of haunting people in real life, Rob.

Zach

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
As a certain shipmate has recently discovered, rants posted on the ship have a way of haunting people in real life, Rob.

Zach

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:
........If I have an issue with a Bishop (or an Archdeacon) I am inclined to ask what more I could do to get my point over clearly, .....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
.... part of the problem is the management culture .......

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
.... part of the problem is the management culture .......

---

Bishops are not hapless victims of any sort of culture in the Church. It is they who largely determine the prevailing culture.

---

quote:

---

Don't most diocesans these days have a list of good Christian counsellors that clergy may be sent to when things go pear-shaped in their lives?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
Bishops are not hapless victims of any sort of culture in the Church. It is they who largely determine the prevailing culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
Bishops are not hapless victims of any sort of culture in the Church. It is they who largely determine the prevailing culture.

---

Not in the Church of England they don't. Parishes largely reproduce their local culture and style without any reference to bishops.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Don't most diocesans these days have a list of good Christian counsellors that clergy may be sent to when things go pear-shaped in their lives?

---

quote:

---

Don't most diocesans these days have a list of good Christian counsellors that clergy may be sent to when things go pear-shaped in their lives?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oferyas:
Hmm, I once went to a diocese where clergy were charged £15 per hour if they needed this ministry! Interesting precedent....

---

quote:

---

my therapist charges my insurance 200USD an hour (125GBP)

---

He charges everyone else half that.

AtB, Pyx_e
 

---

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
Perhaps they charge per personality.
 

---

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :
 
Dammit, I told you not to say that. Get back in the Id. Now.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Heh, they're always complaining there is a clergy shortage. If each one were to cultivate a dual personality you'd get two for the price of one. Interesting thought.
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Heh, they're always complaining there is a clergy shortage. If each one were to cultivate a dual personality you'd get two for the price of one. Interesting thought.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Heh, they're always complaining there is a clergy shortage. If each one were to cultivate a dual personality you'd get two for the price of one. Interesting thought.

---

It would be fabulous if there were two of me: double the work could be done!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:


It generally seems to be left up to individual clergy to find someone for the role of spiritual director - which is an important long-term relationship. Rather than waiting for things to go pear-shaped and then have to go looking for help, it would make more sense to have the ongoing spiritual direction thing.

The single recommendation senior clergy made to me when I moved to Ireland (after I'd asked a few times about potential spiritual directors) said 'no'!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:


It generally seems to be left up to individual clergy to find someone for the role of spiritual director - which is an important long-term relationship. Rather than waiting for things to go pear-shaped and then have to go looking for help, it would make more sense to have the ongoing spiritual direction thing.

The single recommendation senior clergy made to me when I moved to Ireland (after I'd asked a few times about potential spiritual directors) said 'no'!

---

Spiritual directors are not counsellors! Though it is important for all clergy to have someone to talk to, and a diocese that doesn't make provision for this is seriously failing in its duty, IMHO.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I think the problem is that Bishops don't want to know a lot of stuff. They don't want to know about:
marriages on the rocks
clergy who are gay
clergy who have mental health problems
clergy who are being bullied
clergy who are inadequate to the task

In the C of E their power is fairly circumscribed. So they have a thing that they tell themselves about their hands being tied. Thier spines were mostly removed at consecration. They like to fudge things and not to come to clear decisions.
They are terrified of the press and of bad publicity. They never ask why clergy have dropped out - some of the best and most creative. They manage.

They get a nice house and a car, reasonable money and lots of respect. I think they could do a LOT better than they do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Heh, they're always complaining there is a clergy shortage. If each one were to cultivate a dual personality you'd get two for the price of one. Interesting thought.

---

It would be fabulous if there were two of me: double the work could be done!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
I didn't say they were, so wind yer neck in!

I'm saying that some dioceses offer details of counselling services for clergy and/or laity in particular difficulties. But prevention being better than cure spiritual directors are generally the best approach to ensuring clerical mental health.

I certainly don't want a counsellor of any sort; but I seriously miss my spiritual director!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I think the problem is that Bishops don't want to know a lot of stuff. They don't want to know about:
marriages on the rocks
clergy who are gay
clergy who have mental health problems
clergy who are being bullied
clergy who are inadequate to the task

In the C of E their power is fairly circumscribed. So they have a thing that they tell themselves about their hands being tied. Thier spines were mostly removed at consecration. They like to fudge things and not to come to clear decisions.
They are terrified of the press and of bad publicity. They never ask why clergy have dropped out - some of the best and most creative. They manage.

They get a nice house and a car, reasonable money and lots of respect. I think they could do a LOT better than they do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I think the problem is that Bishops don't want to know a lot of stuff. .........

---

I'd love to know what Bishops do do all day then

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
I'd love to know what Bishops do do all day then - the one I know about most goes off each day to the diocesan office at 8am, returns home briefly at 5pm, grabs a quick bite to eat, then goes off to visit a parish or some such, getting back at 10.30pm. He can't spend all that time visiting online poker sites, surely?

---

I've encountered 3 bishops in the past 20 years. I can reveal that this is what they do:

1) They get drunk and try to play the organ.

2) They tread heavily on your foot and go away without apologizing.

3) They give you chocolate coins at Christmas.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Well, if they do 3) I'm prepared to forgive them 1) and 2)
 

---

Posted by Aelred of Rievaulx (# 16860) on :
 
Bishops do meetings.
Bishops visit schools.
Bishops talk to diocesan staff.
Bishops visit parishes.
Bishops write sermons.
Bishops go to many church services.
Bishops say their prayers.
Bishops worry about stuff - bums on pews, their clergy, the diocesan finances, things that are controversial, what is going to be in the papers, child protection, all that kind of thing.

That is what they do.
 

---

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
Bishops do meetings.
Bishops visit schools.
Bishops talk to diocesan staff.
Bishops visit parishes.
Bishops write sermons.
Bishops go to many church services.
Bishops say their prayers.
Bishops worry about stuff - bums on pews, their clergy, the diocesan finances, things that are controversial, what is going to be in the papers, child protection, all that kind of thing.

That is what they do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
Bishops do meetings.
Bishops visit schools.
Bishops talk to diocesan staff.
Bishops visit parishes.
Bishops write sermons.
Bishops go to many church services.
Bishops say their prayers.
Bishops worry about stuff - bums on pews, their clergy, the diocesan finances, things that are controversial, what is going to be in the papers, child protection, all that kind of thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:

Bishops visit schools.
That is what they do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps independent schools invite them more than state schools? And if so, why?
(The bishop came to open our church's CofE primary school extension last month - presumably because someone thought to invite him. Another local CofE school got a former teacher to open their extension - the bishop wasn't invited.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps independent schools invite them more than state schools? And if so, why?
(The bishop came to open our church's CofE primary school extension last month - presumably because someone thought to invite him. Another local CofE school got a former teacher to open their extension - the bishop wasn't invited.)

---

Bishop Bob by any chance? Not a bad chap - he did ours as well a couple of years ago.

Both he and Michael have, though, spent more time over the years in the 2 private schools (woodard) in the little white town than they have in the 4 diocese primary and junior schools.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BroJames:
[QUOTE]Spent more time at, or been more reported at? I only ask because the independent schools seem to be much more assiduous and adept at getting this sort of thing reported than your average small (or even large) primary school.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Reflecting on the events of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday - is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? It would be depressing if it is true, but there seems lots of evidence to support the idea.

---

quote:

---

Anyone in a position of leadership in religious communities is part of the modern day company of Pharisees

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Reflecting on the events of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday - is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? It would be depressing if it is true, but there seems lots of evidence to support the idea.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please will the two of you above acknowledge that you have been in positions of power in religious communities.

Heck so have I and it regularly scares me silly; and I am not even a cleric but lower still down the hierarchy. Bishops may be Pharisees but so too is you local priest by that definition.

Am I a Pharisee? certainly I have tendencies that way, so it is normally part of my confession, part of my life that needs God's sanctification.

Jengie

---

I usually feel as if I'm preaching to myself almost exclusively when those scriptures come up!

'Jesus said this to the religious authorities and leaders.... well, that would be, like, someone - er.... well, someone like me.... in their fine robes.... mmmmm, like, er, these I suppose..... getting noticed in the market place, and the best seats at banquets. (Shit, me again!).... well, er.... right, let's affirm our faith as we stand to say the creed!'
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
being a gadfly I think I've worked with more bishops than many have, and I would fear any generalizations.

I have had, in random order

• Unapproachable Supreme Generalissimo Bishop
• Burnt out Bishop
• Save the World Bishop
• Funny ha-ha I'm a joke bishop # 1
• Underrated bloody brilliant Bishop
• Can I sell you a used car Bishop
• Interfering bigot bishop
• Underrated Visionary Bishop
• Captain Queeg Bishop
• Funny ha-ha I'm a joke Bishop # 2
• Captain Executive Bishop
• Prince Bishop
• I trust my priests and do my best Bishop
• Bishop who?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
They must be able to pastor, in theory, too, but I'm fucked if I would go to my boss to be pastored.

---

I can imagine that would be a pretty serious dis-incentive.
 

---

Posted by DangerousDeacon (# 10582) on :
 
Zappa makes a serious point - part of the problem is the conflicting roles a Bishop has. I was once asked to stand for a vacant Diocese, and went to my Bishop (who was also the Primate) to ask his advice. He responded that he couldn't advise me, because that would conflict with his responsibility as Primate to confirm the election of the person elected. In that particular province, he was stating a legal truth. When, thankfully, my nomination did not go through (the Holy Spirit worked on this occasion) we had a long conversation in which his pastoral skills were finally allowed to work.

So, one problem, and why some good priests who could be good bishops end up failing - too many conflicting roles - it is impossible to be ruler, judge, teacher and pastor all at the one time.
 

---

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
A little like those who would be politicians, the fact that someone WISHES to be a bishop should be a natural disqualification.

The suspect psychology of someone who wishes for power or influence, even if pomposly self-deluded in thinking that they can 'do good', or even worse, that it is the 'work of the Holy Spirit' should make whatever process exists weedle out such persons.

As someone remarked elsewhere perhaps the randon picking out of a name from a chalice by a child should be the method of selection.

Perhaps those who would be naturally appropriate for the position would be those who did not wish their names to be placed in the chalice at all.
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Although I'm only someone in the pew, so may only have part of the picture, it looks for all the world, to us ordinary church attenders, as if our Diocesan Bishop has organised the whole Diocese into groups called 'Mission Communities'. All very neat and tidy, but in reality everyone on a merry-go-round which never seems to stop in the same place with anyone you recognise. The numbers of churches in each community seems to be going up and up (this is a very rural area), while the number of priests in each community seems to be going down and down. Meanwhile, extra money can be bid for to finance mission initiatives within these communities (from allocated central funds).

Whether this is over-organisation, or not, probably depends on how involved you think a bishop should be. I can't work out whether it has added an extra administrative layer to the old deanery system, or whether it is ultimately intended to replace deaneries altogether.
 

---

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
Every time I see this thread title, I have an urge to say 'no thank you'
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please will the two of you above acknowledge that you have been in positions of power in religious communities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no_prophet:
The Anglican church is in decline everywhere except Africa apparently. We do know why don't we?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
[QB] A little like those who would be politicians, the fact that someone WISHES to be a bishop should be a natural disqualification./QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Although I'm only someone in the pew, so may only have part of the picture, it looks for all the world, to us ordinary church attenders, as if our Diocesan Bishop has organised the whole Diocese into groups called 'Mission Communities'. All very neat and tidy, but in reality everyone on a merry-go-round which never seems to stop in the same place with anyone you recognise. The numbers of churches in each community seems to be going up and up (this is a very rural area), while the number of priests in each community seems to be going down and down. Meanwhile, extra money can be bid for to finance mission initiatives within these communities (from allocated central funds).

Whether this is over-organisation, or not, probably depends on how involved you think a bishop should be. I can't work out whether it has added an extra administrative layer to the old deanery system, or whether it is ultimately intended to replace deaneries altogether.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Padre Joshua:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
[QB] A little like those who would be politicians, the fact that someone WISHES to be a bishop should be a natural disqualification./QB]

---

Couldn't we take that to it's natural conclusion by saying that anyone who wishes to be a pastor/priest/presbyter shouldn't be allowed to be?

Where does calling step in? How can I say that I'm called to be a deacon or priest, but not that I'm called to the episcopacy?

Not trying to argue, but to understand. Does God call people to be bishops? If so, then does that mean your statement above is incorrect, or am I misunderstanding you? If God does not call people to be bishops, then my next question is, "does God really call people into the priesthood?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Well, I'd have thought one didn't enter the church for a career (naive, I know, human nature being what it is). Wasn't there some clause in the rules for monastic communities about how anyone who angled for the post of abbot was automatically disqualified?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Reflecting on the events of Maundy Thursday and Good Friday - is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? It would be depressing if it is true, but there seems lots of evidence to support the idea.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Although I'm only someone in the pew, so may only have part of the picture, it looks for all the world, to us ordinary church attenders, as if our Diocesan Bishop has organised the whole Diocese into groups called 'Mission Communities'. All very neat and tidy, but in reality everyone on a merry-go-round which never seems to stop in the same place with anyone you recognise. The numbers of churches in each community seems to be going up and up (this is a very rural area), while the number of priests in each community seems to be going down and down. Meanwhile, extra money can be bid for to finance mission initiatives within these communities (from allocated central funds).

Whether this is over-organisation, or not, probably depends on how involved you think a bishop should be. I can't work out whether it has added an extra administrative layer to the old deanery system, or whether it is ultimately intended to replace deaneries altogether.

---

Bishop "Bob" strikes again eh? How does the system cope though with so many churches with very small congregations and (in some cases) members not interested in anything that will attract new people to the church?

How can you offer pastoral care on a Sunday when the preacher in on his/her bkike to the next church as soon as the service ends?

One solution is for the bigger churches (of whatever denomination) to help the smaller. Not so far from you an Anglican Church has been helped by musicians from a bigger church from another denomination - the musicians lived in the village and now commit to the anglican vs the other church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mary Marriott:
Compelling historical analysis of their seventeenth century origins, on In Our Time last Thurs with Melvin Bragg (radio 4); and available on line I think for 7 days.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

---

I wonder why they can't just say that. IME most people can cope with honesty but get very miffed when they think they're being manipulated. If bishops could be honest and admit that what's happening isn't good but is the best that can be managed in the circumstances then they might get more support.

---

quote:

---

"It shows that the reliance on the performance of the stock market when you're running an organisation of such significance and importance is a serious flaw. The shift towards congregational giving has been impressive.

"But over time we could be looking at a much more fragmented church, in which some parishes and dioceses find themselves struggling financially."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
And the bishops keep on appointing nightmare vicars who convert solvent, working parishes into bankrupt fucked up messes

---

When you meet some very admirable non-stipendiaries and compare them with some very awful stipendiaries (OK, OK, not a fair comparison, but you see where I'm heading), you really begin to wonder whether the church couldn't save a load of money by running on mainly voluntary rather than paid staff. If there are enough volunteers, that is. Certainly the church would be in very deep smegeroony by now without all those loyal and dedicated NSMs, readers, etc.
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Bugger - youse are all putting me out of a job
 

---

Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
Not us, Zappa.

Congregations are declining, inflation is increasing, unemployment is soaring, businesses are going bust on a daily basis and the Church Commissioners are buggering around wasting the C of E's remaining capital and THERE JUST ISN'T ANY MONEY LEFT.

IMO the bishops need to start considering what sort of service their clergy are providing to the laity. Because the laity aren't going to go on paying for crap and why should they?

(Nothing personal meant, even if this is Hell)
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
And the bishops keep on appointing nightmare vicars who convert solvent, working parishes into bankrupt fucked up messes

---

When you meet some very admirable non-stipendiaries and compare them with some very awful stipendiaries (OK, OK, not a fair comparison, but you see where I'm heading), you really begin to wonder whether the church couldn't save a load of money by running on mainly voluntary rather than paid staff. If there are enough volunteers, that is. Certainly the church would be in very deep smegeroony by now without all those loyal and dedicated NSMs, readers, etc.

---

Well, practically the CofE is running - mainly - on volunteers. The most of the capital that comes in to fund the ever decreasing number of full-timers are volunteer payers; PCC and sub-committee members, parish officers, lay and some clergy synod members, lay and some clergy diocesan advisors and committee members, church maintainers in the parish (gardeners, cleaners, flowers, group leaders, liturgical assistants etc), many clergy, all readers are volunteers.

The mystery is with all this lot going on why are so many stipes still run off their feet?!
 

---

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
....... The mystery is with all this lot going on why are so many stipes still run off their feet?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please will the two of you above acknowledge that you have been in positions of power in religious communities.

---

I can't quite see how that is relevant JJ, but I recognise the truth of the rest of your post. Jesus taught his disciples to be servants, displaying sacrificial love, so maybe we're asking for trouble if we give anyone any power in Christianity. Maybe we should ditch all the structures, and just get on with working out the two Great Commandments.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
my point is that many of those stipes who need help don't want it.

---

Classic control-freak syndrome.

Plus total lack of trust in the laity, like those vicars who dismantle working Bible-study groups because they feel threatened by them.

I think it's high time the church reconsidered its criteria for appointment to stipendiary posts.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Oh yeah. I forgot. It's always the clergy's fault. Even when it's not.
 

---

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :
 
'It gets it over that much quicker
to go and blame it on the Vicar'.
(J.Betjeman)
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
There are still a lot of clergy who operate as one man bands (and it is mainly men, in my experience). My own training is a long time ago now, but I wonder how well modern ordinands are prepared for a shared ministry.
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh yeah. I forgot. It's always the clergy's fault. Even when it's not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Oh yeah. I forgot. It's always the clergy's fault. Even when it's not.

---

That kinda comes with the territory of being a heirarchial church.

---

As I always say: you get the credit for nothing and the blame for everything.


Robert Armin, training (at least in my vicar factory) was about collaborative ministry, with lay and ordained. Lay teams, lay ministry, lay involvement at every level - as well as various combinations of working with accredited and ordained ministers of different sorts. The 'c' word was a BIG theme. In fact, it came as a shock after college to find out that the people in the pews weren't necessarily straining at the leash to get involved at all. And not from being disabled by clergy control-freakery either!

I know that that side of things exists - but so does the side of things where opportunities are there in abundance and are being studiously ignored.

But all collaborations require people with collaborative vision and skills. Some clergy are very gifted at enabling such collaborations - some aren't. Some of us just try our best with what we've got. I'm grateful for the folks who keep the doors open and the churches operating; and who in many ways keep elements of church life alive. I just wish I could find the magic button that encourages more people to commit and participate, and try new things.
 

---

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Some are maybe not very good time managers - they spend a lot of time doing things that volunteers could do, yet get frustrated that volunteers don't want to do the things that the stipendiary does well. A mismatch of skills and expectations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[QUOTE]Bishop Bob by any chance? Not a bad chap - he did ours as well a couple of years ago.

Both he and Michael have, though, spent more time over the years in the 2 private schools (woodard) in the little white town than they have in the 4 diocese primary and junior schools.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Some are maybe not very good time managers - they spend a lot of time doing things that volunteers could do, yet get frustrated that volunteers don't want to do the things that the stipendiary does well. A mismatch of skills and expectations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:
I've also heard plenty of stipendiary clergy moaning about the fact that their NSM colleagues are never available during the week. That might be something to do with them needing to earn the money to keep a roof over their heads!

---

Not just the stipendary clergy! I know a lot of people in my parish were expecting that of our former deacon, who had a day job (and two special-needs children), and seemed to think that we were paying her some sort of salary even though anyone who goes to the annual meeting will not see a line item for it.
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
I imagine one of the reasons people who think they ought to be ministering are not used, is just as the are some nightmare clergy there are also some nightmare lay ministers.
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 
And the biggest nightmare of all is that some of them are just as competent as clergy at leading worship and preaching.

Anyway, it's not just the 'nightmare vicars' who ignore available lay ministry, it's a common feature. The vicar who cancelled services had access to a group of experienced Readers and all they would have done is lead worship and preach and then go home again. Where's the threat in that?
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
So my point isn't worth addressing? No ideas yet - anyone - about the magic formula or the magic button that releases all the folks in the pews who it seems are just champing at the bit to get into ministry - but for the nasty ol' clergy?

I'd love to discover anyone amongst my congregations who'd like to minister (I have faith they're there!). I'd willingly take - and have taken - the risk in someone being either incompetent or as justlooking strangely puts it the even bigger nightmare of being great!

I'm actually asking here as a cleric who wants to encourage lay ministry and works hard at it - but most of what I'm seeing here is useless complaint about those clergy who don't. Anyone got anything useful in response to what I've posted? I know it's Hell and whinging feebly is certainly hellish, but it's hard to sustain respect for the views of posters who don't seem able to see beyond their own pet peeves.
 

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Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
That said, a close relative of mine, liberal in her theology and semi-fringe like in the CofE once remarked about lay liturgical ministry: 'If I go to church I want the proper vicar. If I go to the doctor that's who I want to see, not the district nurse. '

And in South Wales where I grew up it was not uncommon for an assistant priest to hear someone shout upstairs when the door was opened to him 'it's only the curate dear.'

There was the feeling that they weren't posh enough for the incumbent to visit so got fobbed off with someone else.
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
...or as justlooking strangely puts it the even bigger nightmare of being great! ...

(

---

quote:

---

And the biggest nightmare of all is that some of them are just as competent as clergy at leading worship and preaching.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
That said, a close relative of mine, liberal in her theology and semi-fringe like in the CofE once remarked about lay liturgical ministry: 'If I go to church I want the proper vicar. If I go to the doctor that's who I want to see, not the district nurse. '

And in South Wales where I grew up it was not uncommon for an assistant priest to hear someone shout upstairs when the door was opened to him 'it's only the curate dear.'

There was the feeling that they weren't posh enough for the incumbent to visit so got fobbed off with someone else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
...or as justlooking strangely puts it the even bigger nightmare of being great! ...

(

---

Or, as I actually put it:

quote:

---

And the biggest nightmare of all is that some of them are just as competent as clergy at leading worship and preaching.

---

---

Oh, I do apologise. And what a shame that hugely important and misleading inaccuracy made my post so difficult for you to understand and respond to. Otherwise I'm sure you would've addressed the actual point I was making. Wouldn't you.

Don't worry. I shan't hold my breath. No doubt there's a comma in the wrong place, or some other blindingly mammoth obstruction to comprehension that makes my question too hard to address properly.
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 

quote:

---

... I just wish I could find the magic button that encourages more people to commit and participate, and try new things.

---

quote:

---

So my point isn't worth addressing? No ideas yet - anyone - about the magic formula or the magic button that releases all the folks in the pews who it seems are just champing at the bit to get into ministry - but for the nasty ol' clergy?

---

quote:

---

... And what a shame that hugely important and misleading inaccuracy made my post so difficult for you to understand and respond to. Otherwise I'm sure you would've addressed the actual point I was making. Wouldn't you...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[QUOTE]Bishop Bob by any chance? Not a bad chap - he did ours as well a couple of years ago.

Both he and Michael have, though, spent more time over the years in the 2 private schools (woodard) in the little white town than they have in the 4 diocese primary and junior schools.

---

More likely to be +John I would have thought, and he spends a lot of time in maintained schools.

---

He doesn't come up to the windy north very much. No, it's Bob
 

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Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
What anselmina said. One of our group of churches can't find enough sidespeople or people who will make cups of tea after the service, and as for finding people who will read a lesson in church.

There response to every Question about who/what/where in the church is 'the vicar does that.' The vicar would love to have lay involvement, instead of always being told ‘that's your job’.

And yes what abervicar said, a previous church I belonged to had a wonderful pastoral visiting but we frequently heard 'I've not had a visit from church.' When what they meant was the clergy have not been to visit me!

There is in many congregations the inbuilt belief that only the vicar will do.
 

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Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
I should also have said that it is nothing to do with the vicar.
There is one church with some lay involvement but even those lay people get frustrated that they can't get more people involved!
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Moving from a hierarchical model of church where you can blame the bishops to a more collaborative model is scary for every one.

The Heirarchy including the Vicar as well as the bishops loose control, and people stop just saying "yes" automatically and sorting it.

The laity find that they have responsibility and therefore have risks, thus if things go wrong they can be held accountable.

Even in the URC which has a long tradition of lay involvement the pressure this dynamic creates tends towards a hierarchical church structure. It is only really the very small congregations that some how manage to get on with things without putting the responsibility with those higher up.

Jengie
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:
Let me help you out, Anselmina...

Justlooking is telling us that he/she/some other lay minister is better at doing what we are ordained to do. Fine: let them do so, as long as they are willing to deal with the consequential pastoral and other outfall, and not expecting the Vicar's already overfull schedule to expand to pick up the pieces.

---

quote:

---

The Church is not exactly over flowing with priests at the moment, and every one of these individuals represents a considerable investment in terms of the training they have received. Instead of pastoral care these arrogant tosspots display a neurotic obsession with their own dignity, ...

---

quote:

---

....is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? It would be depressing if it is true, but there seems lots of evidence to support the idea.

---

quote:

---

When you meet some very admirable non-stipendiaries and compare them with some very awful stipendiaries (OK, OK, not a fair comparison, but you see where I'm heading), you really begin to wonder whether the church couldn't save a load of money by running on mainly voluntary rather than paid staff. If there are enough volunteers, that is. Certainly the church would be in very deep smegeroony by now without all those loyal and dedicated NSMs, readers, etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
The willing volunteers are there Zacchaeus but perhaps not within each church. Perhaps within the deanery and certainly within the diocese there will be enough already trained and licensed or authorised lay ministers. I'm not surprised there's not much response to pushing. If the resources aready there were being used then congregations would experience what is meant by lay ministry and perhaps some would then be more willing to explore calling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Justlooking is also skipping very lightly over sacramental theology, and about the place of the priest in communion with the congregation.

I do know churches where the reader starts the service while the priest finishes off another one. However for some churches this is reducing the priest’s role to saying the 'magic words.' Other churches will not accept this as they have a view of communion as being something of the people of God together.

---

quote:

---

I suspect that Justlooking must come from a certain type of church. As the only church that I have known with such an abundance of lay people who wanted to be involved in worship was a better off, very middle class church where the congregation had many professional people in it. With skills and talents and self confidence that are already well developed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
My diocese is encouraging better deployment of licensed readers and indeed of all those trained and authorised volunteers. There are very many readers able and willing to help churches beyond their own home church. A lot of work has already been put into formulating a manageable scheme. The sticking point appears to be with stipendiary clergy.

Have you tried talking with the Warden of Readers in your diocese? Why not have a discussion about what your church needs and whether or not there could be help available.

I'm not suggesting Readers are the only volunteers available in this way but there are 10,000 in the Church as a whole and they are a resource.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
The comment I heard about a cleric who preferred to rush around like a headless chicken or even cancel church services, rather than ask for Reader help, was in the context of a conversation specifically about the deployment of Readers in the diocese. A very experienced Reader made the comment that there's a need but not a want. This was a specific example of rural parishes being left without a Sunday service of worship in their parish church because the vicar is ignoring the offers of help available. Some congregations would be happy to accept alternate Sundays with Morning Worship rather than Communion. At least happier than having no service at all. It is also possible in a Eucharist service for a Reader to take the whole of the Service of the Word, allowing time for a priest to move between churches. In some dioceses Readers regularly take services using the reserved sacrament. It's up to the Bishop to authorise this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:



Long term it probably needs to gift a fair few of its churches and catherals to the national trust or other denominations, sell some for site development, increase the size of urban parishes and reduce the number of physical buildings in them, and change parishes expectations regarding the frequency of eucharist - whilst making more use of lay ministry as well. Especially for pastoral care.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

---

quote:

---

Hard cases do not make good law. You offer one complaint which you have heard as anecdotal evidence supporting a whole case against a raft of people in positions of varying authority.

---

quote:

---

Churches, however, don't grow just by preaching and leading worship. As I suggested. there's a whole relational aspect which needs to be brought together and in a 'joined up' way.

---

quote:

---

A start can be when those in a 'ministry team' are prepared to work together in addressing the growth of the Kingdom. This does not mean 'you keep Parish X happy by doing Morning Prayer or Messy Church with them, and I'll do a monthly Communion'; it means we all commit together for whatever it takes to help people grow in faith and in prayerful witness.

---

quote:

---

Your analysis so far is relevant to the Church as a failing organisation,

---

quote:

---

[B]...something far more radical and for more demanding is required. Strangely, when this happens, volunteers start to come out of the woodwork. But it needs prayer and hard work to lay the foundations - and the willingness to try things we would not otherwise have contemplated. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
We are also looking at lay minister deployment in this diocese.

When I was licensed, this parish had no tradition of Readers. During my twenty years in the role, six people have been trained and licensed.

So I am less 'used' than before but I cannot do much in other churches because I do not drive and Sunday buses are rare before noon. Were I a Methodist local preacher, I'd be picked up and driven home. The C of E seems determined not to learn from other denominations

On lay ministry generally, we must encourage people to think of the ministry as liing principally in their secular work, politics and families.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I don't think the worship of architecture has much future.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
You too have offered illustrations which could be judged as complaints supporting a case against a raft of people in voluntary positions.

---

quote:

---

I'm not suggesting they do grow 'just' by preaching and leading worship. But they can't grow at all without it. If the CofE can't provide for worship then there's nothing to grow on.

---

quote:

---

'Whatever it takes' might mean doing exactly what you don't want.

---

quote:

---

'To help people grow in faith and prayerful witness' is the kind of pre-fabricated phrase that can be stuck onto any proposition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
What do you think should happen about communion, are you happy for a priest to do a part service, to use a reserved sacrement or to have it less frequently? Or would you favour the introduction of lay presidency?

---

quote:

---

I think our parish is rather typical of what parishes are doing across the country. In our parish, for example, on days when the pastor is absent, the pastoral associate, Sister Jane, leads a Communion service. She calls the assembly together with the Sign of the Cross and a prayer. Then she (or another member of the parish) reads the Scripture passages assigned to the Mass for the day. Sister Jane then says a prayer thanking Christ for the gift of the Eucharist. Everyone recites the Lord—s Prayer. Then Sister distributes holy Communion with hosts consecrated at a previous Mass and taken from the tabernacle. She concludes the service with a prayer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
You too have offered illustrations which could be judged as complaints supporting a case against a raft of people in voluntary positions.

---

No my comments were clearly offered as a complaint against your sweeping statements.

---

[/QUOTE]
 

---

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 
I may be tired but I think I wrote that myself...

[ 15. April 2012, 17:25: Message edited by: AberVicar ]
 

---

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 
...and I managed to get the code right in the original. Must be something to do with nearly 30 years in Holy Orders!

[ 15. April 2012, 17:35: Message edited by: AberVicar ]
 

---

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
And the biggest nightmare of all is that some of them are just as competent as clergy at leading worship and preaching.

Anyway, it's not just the 'nightmare vicars' who ignore available lay ministry, it's a common feature. T

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:
No my comments were clearly offered as a complaint against your sweeping statements.

---

quote:

---

It has been known for (voluntary) readers and lay ministers and others to queue up for making a difference in challenging situations, and then to find that what they want to offer is not actually what is needed. They can then quite reasonably walk away back to their other commitments, families, day jobs &c.

I don't begrudge them that opportunity, although I'd rather be in your situation where people around you are aware of their limitations, as you are clearly aware of your own. With a bit of humility spread around, you can then together attack the challenges according to need, not just according to your own perceived gifts.

---

quote:

---

Justlooking is telling us that he/she/some other lay minister is better at doing what we are ordained to do.

---

quote:

---

'Whatever it takes' might mean doing exactly what you don't want.

---

quote:

---

Exactly what who doesn't want, and exactly what is that anyway?

---

quote:

---

"This does not mean 'you keep Parish X happy by doing Morning Prayer or Messy Church with them, and I'll do a monthly Communion'; ..

---

quote:

---

'To help people grow in faith and prayerful witness' is the kind of pre-fabricated phrase that can be stuck onto any proposition.

---

quote:

---

So because you find it so easy to rubbish it is not worth having as an aim...

---

quote:

---

What you are suggesting goes no further than attacking a failing organisation because it is failing, and it is inconsistent because on the one hand you have the expectation of maintaining the structure and on the other hand you are trying to demolish the structure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
What do you think should happen about communion, are you happy for a priest to do a part service, to use a reserved sacrement or to have it less frequently? Or would you favour the introduction of lay presidency?

---

I think it's a question that's being avoided on the whole but it does need to be brought into open discussion in the Church. Not just discussing what people may want but what in the circumstances will best serve the Church. There aren't enough clergy. There isn't enough money. That's the starting point. I'd like to see congregations fully involved in the decision-making because otherwise whatever is decided won't work.

My own inclination would be towards Communion with reserved sacrament. I'd also want to explore the idea of 'shared consecration' for want of a better expression - the kind of service where the congregation share fully in the words of the Eucharistic prayer and the fraction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
What I am attacking is the wastefulness of resources in trying to maintain a structure that doesn't work. The structure may need to change but even more, attitudes need to change. This is where it comes back to the bishops. They need to ensure that all ministers are supported and enabled to contribute.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
It seems you are moving towards a congegationalist lay presidency position - which is a point of view, but I would not have thought it is a mainstream position in the cofe.

I would be interested in knowing what you think ordained ministry is for ?

---

quote:

---

The priest is a publicly acknowledged figure who represents Christ and his Church in a particular way, through a ministry of word, sacrament and pastoral care. In order to do this, he or she is given authority at ordination to speak and act in a public way – to preside at the Eucharist, and in the name of God, to bless and declare God’s forgiveness, lead people in prayer and worship, baptise, officiate at weddings and funerals, preach, and teach and encourage ‘by word and example’.

The priest is commissioned to prepare the baptised for Confirmation, minister to the sick and prepare the dying for their death. .....

---

quote:

---

Readers are lay people in the Church of England, from all walks of life, who are called by God, theologically trained and licensed by the Church to preach, teach, lead worship and assist in pastoral, evangelistic and liturgical work.

The office of Reader is the only lay ministry in the Church of England which is voluntary, nationally accredited, Episcopally licensed and governed by canon. There are now over 10,000 Readers, with men and women represented almost equally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
What I am attacking is the wastefulness of resources in trying to maintain a structure that doesn't work. The structure may need to change but even more, attitudes need to change. This is where it comes back to the bishops. They need to ensure that all ministers are supported and enabled to contribute.

---

I agree. And one of the attitudes that could usefully be changed is Anselmina's and AberVicar's immediate rush to take personal offence at any post on the Ship which includes the slightest whisper of a general criticism of the clergy. Ladies, this may come as a surprise but it isn't all about you, you know. Some of us post here for reasons of general interest and concern about the whole of the church we belong to.

For the record, I consider my own vicar to be extremely competent. But that doesn't mean that I consider she is supported by the Church hierarchy as well as she ought to be.

---

If you post something I don't agree with I challenge it. If SoF is about just letting people slag off bishops, priests or whomever else without their being permitted to defend themselves, let me know and I'll waste my time elsewhere.

So either don't allow people to write embittered bollocks about others who are trying their best to do what others have called them to, or lay off when some of us come in to point out where the bollocks are being talked.

And while we're talking about bollocks, your perception of my motivation is about as accurate as your perception of my sex...

 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Your description of the congregation blessing the wafers and wine in the absence of a priest seemed like lay presidency to me ?

as regards the priest / reader difference - from those two quotes the diffence between a non-stipendary priest and a reader seems to be the a priest can do communion and weddings ?

Eta - because if that is the case the church could function on readers and a slightly expanded set of bishops (think priesthood was originally delegated down from priesthood anyway) and some none-stipendary priests. Monthly communion with some use of reserved sacrament.

Eta crosspoted in response to justlookin

V late edit to say - I meant I thought that priesthood was delegated down from bishophood *dohh*

[ 15. April 2012, 21:53: Message edited by: Think² ]
 

---

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 
Do me a favour, justlooking: read your posts again. They certainly read as if you think you know how to do both bishops' and priests' jobs better.

So before accusing me of lying, consider that if I'm wrong it will be based on an extended lie perpetrated by you and for which you have fallen.
 

---

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
Your description of the congregation blessing the wafers and wine in the absence of a priest seemed like lay presidency to me ?

as regards the priest / reader difference - from those two quotes the diffence between a non-stipendary priest and a reader seems to be the a priest can do communion and weddings ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:
Do me a favour, justlooking: read your posts again. They certainly read as if you think you know how to do both bishops' and priests' jobs better.

---

quote:

---

And one of the attitudes that could usefully be changed is Anselmina's and AberVicar's immediate rush to take personal offence at any post on the Ship which includes the slightest whisper of a general criticism of the clergy. Ladies, this may come as a surprise but it isn't all about you, you know.

---

quote:

---

Classic control-freak syndrome.

Plus total lack of trust in the laity, like those vicars who dismantle working Bible-study groups because they feel threatened by them.

I think it's high time the church reconsidered its criteria for appointment to stipendiary posts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
Eta - because if that is the case the church could function on readers and a slightly expanded set of bishops (think priesthood was originally delegated down from priesthood anyway) and some none-stipendary priests. Monthly communion with some use of reserved sacrament.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
[qb]


This is what ordained ministers are for:

[QUOTE] The priest is a publicly acknowledged figure who represents Christ and his Church in a particular way, through a ministry of word, sacrament and pastoral care. In order to do this, he or she is given authority at ordination to speak and act in a public way – to preside at the Eucharist, and in the name of God, to bless and declare God’s forgiveness, lead people in prayer and worship, baptise, officiate at weddings and funerals, preach, and teach and encourage ‘by word and example’.

The priest is commissioned to prepare the baptised for Confirmation, minister to the sick and prepare the dying for their death. .....

---

This is what Readers are for:

quote:

---

Readers are lay people in the Church of England, from all walks of life, who are called by God, theologically trained and licensed by the Church to preach, teach, lead worship and assist in pastoral, evangelistic and liturgical work.

The office of Reader is the only lay ministry in the Church of England which is voluntary, nationally accredited, Episcopally licensed and governed by canon. There are now over 10,000 Readers, with men and women represented almost equally.

---

Readers can also be authorised to conduct funerals. Some Readers act as chaplains, a few are authorised to lead a congregation as Minister-in-Charge in a similar way to some Church Army evangelists.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:
Do me a favour, justlooking: read your posts again. They certainly read as if you think you know how to do both bishops' and priests' jobs better.

---

That's what you're reading into it. Because, as Chamois said :

quote:

---

And one of the attitudes that could usefully be changed is Anselmina's and AberVicar's immediate rush to take personal offence at any post on the Ship which includes the slightest whisper of a general criticism of the clergy. Ladies, this may come as a surprise but it isn't all about you, you know.

---

and

quote:

---

Classic control-freak syndrome.

Plus total lack of trust in the laity, like those vicars who dismantle working Bible-study groups because they feel threatened by them.

I think it's high time the church reconsidered its criteria for appointment to stipendiary posts.

---

I agree.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
Thus by ordination bishops, priests and deacons become sort of walking sacraments - this tends to be borne out in reality in that the ordained are often seen as representatives of the whole church by the wider community. They need only walk into the pub in clericals for that to be obvious.

This sacramental view of ordination can be seen in that although deacons can do little more than a lay minister (officiate at marriages may be an exception) s/he shares ministerially in the high priesthood of Christ and his church as signs of servanthood and set aside to be living models of the servant church.

---

quote:

---

Bishops should be pastors, godly people, caring for the clergy with whom they share a cure of souls, and with a vision that inspires those clergy. What do we have instead? With a few - a very few - notable exceptions we have bureaucrats, spineless pen pushers, whose only care is to keep their noses clean so that may advance higher up the episcopal ladder.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I suppose I am asking what you see of value in having an ordained priesthood - it is not a given of a church. One can operate without. It depends alot on what you see them as providing.

---

quote:

---

All candidates for ordination as a presbyter in the Methodist Church in Great Britain (or the Methodist Church in Ireland) are required to be admitted as Local Preachers before they can be accepted as candidates or begin their training.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I suppose I am asking what you see of value in having an ordained priesthood - it is not a given of a church. One can operate without. It depends alot on what you see them as providing.

---

This is a very good question. ISTM that the only thing an ordained priest can do that a layperson can't is administer the sacraments. And even that is only because the church says so - there's no real reason why a layperson couldn't stand at the front and say exactly the same words and perform exactly the same actions.

---

quote:

---

Yes, it is what the ordained are rather than what they do that differentiates them from lay ministers. It puts them in a higher position of trust and subject to higher standards.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
...there's no real reason why a layperson couldn't stand at the front and say exactly the same words and perform exactly the same actions [with reference to the sacraments].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
(And AberVicar, I fully support your right to call my POV "embittered bollocks". Embittered it certainly is; we'll have to disagree about the bollocks.)

---

I don't have any way of knowing whether the description of your circumstances is bollocks or not - understandably you don't give enough detail. It seems clear enough to me that extending it to all bishops is bollocks; and there is enough unsupported bollocks in this thread to keep Solomon's concubines happy all at once.

But hey - this is Hell...
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
I suppose I am asking what you see of value in having an ordained priesthood - it is not a given of a church. One can operate without. It depends alot on what you see them as providing.

---

This is a very good question. ISTM that the only thing an ordained priest can do that a layperson can't is administer the sacraments. And even that is only because the church says so - there's no real reason why a layperson couldn't stand at the front and say exactly the same words and perform exactly the same actions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Just Looking:

quote:

---

Yes, it is what the ordained are rather than what they do that differentiates them from lay ministers. It puts them in a higher position of trust and subject to higher standards.

---

And what happens when we get tired, make mistakes and fail to live up to those higher standards? Are we helped, or dropped? The most heartfelt part of my OP was that Bishops are pen pushers and not pastors, who care for their public image rather than their people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
A priest is not a mere functionary who administers sacraments. Ordination confers an ongtological change. The person who presides at the communion table does so because of a relationship s/he has with the congregation and with the universal church via the bishop.

If you believe that there is no need for a sacramentally ordained priest then the logical next step is that there is no need for any other sacraments. So there is no need for Holy Communion.

Unless, of course, you see it as some sort of memorial service for a dead Jesus.

---

Belief in the sacraments (both of them!) doesn't logically necessitate belief in an ontological understanding of priesthood. I don't believe that a person ordained Priest in the Church of God undergoes any ontological change, but I do believe that they have been duly authorised and set apart to administer the sacraments (and that therefore lay presidency isn't appropriate at the eucharist, since lay people haven't received that authorisation).
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
The person who presides at the communion table does so because of a relationship s/he has with the congregation and with the universal church via the bishop.

---

quote:

---

If you believe that there is no need for a sacramentally ordained priest then the logical next step is that there is no need for any other sacraments. So there is no need for Holy Communion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete173:
I don't believe that a person ordained Priest in the Church of God undergoes any ontological change, but I do believe that they have been duly authorised and set apart to administer the sacraments (and that therefore lay presidency isn't appropriate at the eucharist, since lay people haven't received that authorisation).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete173:
I don't believe that a person ordained Priest in the Church of God undergoes any ontological change, but I do believe that they have been duly authorised and set apart to administer the sacraments (and that therefore lay presidency isn't appropriate at the eucharist, since lay people haven't received that authorisation).

---

Given that baptism and communion both follow set liturgies, and therefore even a completely untrained person should be able to preside at them without getting anything wrong, I'm not entirely sure why such authority is necessary.
 

---

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 
What a hellish move: from criticising selection criteria to 'anyone will do' - all in one thread.

Congratulations!
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:
What a hellish move: from criticising selection criteria to 'anyone will do' - all in one thread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Different people have different opinions. Film at 11.

---

quote:

---

The ones who really are below standard are the ones who can't be trusted. The ones full of pastoral concern when they want to look good but in reality couldn't care less.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:
What a hellish move: from criticising selection criteria to 'anyone will do' - all in one thread.

Congratulations!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
So if there is in fact a shortage of priests for the purposes of having weekly communions in places that can't afford a full-time stipendiary, it's not clear to me why the best solution isn't in fact to ordain people as sacramental priests to fill this gap whilst withholding licences to preach, engage in pastoral work, hear confessions, and run parishes unless and until they've been able to undergo the necessary training (if ever).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
So if there is in fact a shortage of priests for the purposes of having weekly communions in places that can't afford a full-time stipendiary, it's not clear to me why the best solution isn't in fact to ordain people as sacramental priests to fill this gap whilst withholding licences to preach, engage in pastoral work, hear confessions, and run parishes unless and until they've been able to undergo the necessary training (if ever).

---

God the Holy Spirit equips the church - that is each local church, the congregation with the gifts needed to build up the church.

So if you don't have enough ordained ministers to preside over communion every week, one of these things is going to be true:

a) God doesn't want you to have Communion so often, or

b) you really ought to appoint a full-time priest, or

c) there is someone in the congregation you can ordain as a non-stipendary minister to administer the sacraments

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

---

Spot on!
 

---

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
You pays your money and you takes your choice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
You pays your money and you takes your choice.

---

Well yes but that doesn't answer the question of why it's currently deemed necessary for non-stipendiary priests who'd be ordained for sacramental liturgical purposes to have both the gifts and training of a parish vicar.

---

quote:

---

... many respondents gave the clear impression that they were ‘ignored, overlooked or under-used’ in the Church, ‘parked somewhere, and left’, and ‘sidelined’. Some commented that stipendiary ministers appeared not to regard SSMs as ‘proper’ clergy and treated them badly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
How they're used will depend on how much time they have but there's no reason why some NSMs can't be priest in-charge of a parish.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
It seems from this discussion that there are a lot of possible options for what we in the NHS call a "Service Redesign". The NHS has done a lot of them since the NHS Plan was published back in 2000.

---

The NHS as a model organisation?

Why do you think they've done so many 'Service Redesigns'?

The Bench of Bishops of the CinW chose the Royal Mail as a model...


If and when there's a properly argued case for changing the organisation in a radical manner, then let's use a successful model shall we?

Or perhaps just gently tweak what we've inherited and work together to make sure it continues to serve the Gospel. After all, the strategy has actually worked for 2000 years...
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
It seems from this discussion that there are a lot of possible options for what we in the NHS call a "Service Redesign". The NHS has done a lot of them since the NHS Plan was published back in 2000.

---

The NHS as a model organisation?

---

Quite. A friend of mine worked all his life in the NHS finishing in a senior nursing position. He could never understand why the Church was so keen to adopt ten year old failed NHS management initiatives and techniques. When he was ordained in his late fifties, he did everything he could to avoid every description of church meeting, at every level. He felt he couldn't bear to go through it all again having got through the first round with his sanity intact!

Chamois, I'm not going to apologise if my seeking to redress the balance of opinion on this thread by asking a question - as an individual priest in my own right - offends your preference for stereotypical blanket generalizations.

Over my years on the Ship, I believe I've posted as consistently on the side of clergy incompetency as on the side of their non-cupability - obviously depending on the terms of the debate. Certainly, being a cleric (though for a much shorter time than I've been non-ordained) I, rightly or wrongly, am inclined to see a situation from the place where I stand. I'm inclined to believe it is exactly the same for you, too.

I also think it's too convenient to dismiss the pro-cleric side of an argument because it comes from a clergy-person. That's just laziness.

I haven't defended myself or been defensive of others. I know there are obstructionist control freak clergy. I also know why sometimes that is not always a bad thing, even while admitting that a lot of the time it is a bad thing in many other cases - but that's another story!

I've stated a fact: that 'it's' not always the clergy's fault. And from that position, I have asked a question, from my own individual situation, hoping that there might be some real application for real people (me and mine) in all this mess. I respect you're just here for the 'general interest' - but some of us would like something concrete and useful to work on.

However, it is Hell; and I appreciate this probably isn't going to be the place for it .
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
c) there is someone in the congregation you can ordain as a non-stipendary minister to administer the sacraments

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
It seems from this discussion that there are a lot of possible options for what we in the NHS call a "Service Redesign". The NHS has done a lot of them since the NHS Plan was published back in 2000.

---

The NHS as a model organisation?

Why do you think they've done so many 'Service Redesigns'?

The Bench of Bishops of the CinW chose the Royal Mail as a model...

---

This kind of thing has been going on for years. Certainly when I went to ABM, at it then was, twenty years ago, I was struck by the close similiarty of the selection conference to the Civil Service Selection Board which I had attended three years previously. (Didn't get through either of them, but that's another story.)
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Canon Robert Reiss, of Westminster Abbey, is the expert on the history of the selection conference in the CofE. It was, he says, modelled on the selection conferences for officers in the Armed Forces. Apparently these were modelled on similar selection conferences developed for the Wehrmacht (back in the days of the Kaiser, one trusts). What a world!

[ 17. April 2012, 10:00: Message edited by: Amos ]
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
In case my previous post was misconstrued, I also want to say that I'm totally with Anselmina and Abervicar on the matter of clericalism and lay ministry. Since this is Hell, I won't wade into the matter of priestly formation (which is important to some people, lay and ordained). I will, however say that for every incompetent, lazy, or wicked priest, there are two incompetent, badly catechized, heretical, dozy, spiritually complacent, bossy, thick-skinned, mad or self-promoting brothers and sisters who think that they could preach and celebrate the sacraments with one hand tied behind their backs. And I haven't even started on the Blue Scarfed Menace.

Not here in Summerisle, of course.

[ 17. April 2012, 10:12: Message edited by: Amos ]
 

---

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
...
I'm thinking of all those churches that don't have a priest, or that have to share one with several other churches. They all, presumably, have dedicated (if small) congregations that will turn up every Sunday. So why can't one or two of those congregants simply be ordained as NSM so that the churches can celebrate communion or host baptisms any time they want? It's not like it would cost the Church anything...

---

quote:

---

Experience shows that you can successfully redesign how you deliver services provided:

1. Everyone affected by the change is informed, engaged, consulted and genuinely made to feel that they themselves and their opinions are valued
2. The people organising the re-design process are open to the views of others and willing and able to change their ideas in response
3. There is inspired and committed leadership from the upper levels of the organisation.

---

quote:

---

Take a teacher: someone may enter teaching and remain a basic classroom teacher throughout the whole of their working life either (positively)because that is what they want to do or (negatively) because they prove themselves incapable of handling further promotion. In general terms that does not apply to clergy. If they enter the ‘incumbent’ (SM) route, then they would normally progress to an incumbency, even if they should turn out to be less than fit for such responsibility; but what else can be done with them? Unless an incumbency would clearly be a disaster and some drastic action has to be taken, then they may just carry on handling the role they have automatically assumed in an unsatisfactory manner. An NSM may make an excellent leader of a ministry team, but may find that responsibility out of reach simply because s/he is NSM. So perhaps thought needs to be given about the implications of varying traditional models whereby the SM is the ‘boss’ and the NSM always the ‘junior’ partner. This could well be done as more explicit collaborative ministry is developed. Tiller wrote of ‘diocesan priests’ (who would carry the authority) and ‘local priests’ who would (presumably) do the work! We should not make the mistake of simply assuming that the former must always be SMs and the latter NSMs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
...it's not just a matter of reading the words. It involves understanding and faith.

---

Does it? Does the level of understanding/faith a minister has affect the efficacy of the sacrament, even though the right words and actions are being used?

And if so, how the hell can we ever know that any given minister has the right understanding or faith? Have I ever received a valid communion?
 

---

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Even NSMs have to be subjected to strict selection criteria in the Anglican church - some people do go forward but don't get selected.

I'm not sure whether the selection criteria are too strict (perhaps they could be loosened slightly to allow Marvin's idea to take shape) or just plain wrong (how come we are getting so many clergy taking time off due to stress if they have been carefully selected in the first place?). Perhaps there needs to be a whole review of how, when, where, and why clergy (S and Non-S) are chosen, and trained.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Coming from a very different tradition, might I ask:

- could not local lay leaders be authorised to preside at Communion in the absence of an ordained clergy person? "....

... If it is felt that an ordained person is needed for the elements to be consecrated (anathema to my position), then could the service not be Communion by Extension?

- such a President need not (even should not) also be the preacher at such a service - this could be a Lay Reader.

In a rapidly-changing world, we need to be flexible. I am not in favour of consolidating congregations together in one place, certainly in rural areas, as one loses the sense of local witness, not to mention 30% of the congregation who can't/won't travel to another place.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
For the CofE the whole idea of lay presidency raises the question of what ordained priests are for.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
For the CofE the whole idea of lay presidency raises the question of what ordained priests are for.

---

That is clearly correct - and not just for the CofE but several other denominations as well as the RCs, of course.

But it also raises the question of whether you need a particular person - who has supposedly been "ontologically changed" by having had certain words said over them by the "right" person - to then go out and "do the magic" themselves by invisibly changing the elements on the altar into the real Body and Blood of Christ (I'm caricaturing I know - but this is Hell!)

My tradition simply doesn't have that understanding of the Eucharist (and nor, I realise, do Evangelical Anglicans). We believe that the grace of Communion is conferred through the worshipper's obedience to God and spiritual thoughtfulness in taking the elements, not in any property that is inherent in the priestly ritual.

If that is the case - and if the bread and wine are not changed in any way - then it follows that anyone can preside, although for the sake of integrity and good church order it should be someone who has been duly recognised.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Everild:
Dipping a toe into the waters of Hell...

No-one has yet mentioned the Ordained Local Ministry schemes which some CofE Dioceses have run for a fair few years now. Seem to me to provide exactly what some posts say is required, i.e. people from the local congregation being called and "owned" by that congregations for the purposes of being a priest in that parish (or group of parishes).
And yet some Dioceses are stepping back from this model...I wonder why? (And that is a genuine query, not a snarky one.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
If a reader or NSM has gained the respect of the congregation by being as caring and dedicated as time and ability allows, then they can become regarded as perfectly acceptable ministers in their own right, on an equal footing with the priest in charge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete173:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
A priest is not a mere functionary who administers sacraments. Ordination confers an ongtological change. The person who presides at the communion table does so because of a relationship s/he has with the congregation and with the universal church via the bishop.

If you believe that there is no need for a sacramentally ordained priest then the logical next step is that there is no need for any other sacraments. So there is no need for Holy Communion.

Unless, of course, you see it as some sort of memorial service for a dead Jesus.

---

Belief in the sacraments (both of them!) doesn't logically necessitate belief in an ontological understanding of priesthood. I don't believe that a person ordained Priest in the Church of God undergoes any ontological change, but I do believe that they have been duly authorised and set apart to administer the sacraments (and that therefore lay presidency isn't appropriate at the eucharist, since lay people haven't received that authorisation).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Some of the willingness to work with people comes down to basic respect. If a reader or NSM has gained the respect of the congregation by being as caring and dedicated as time and ability allows, then they can become regarded as perfectly acceptable ministers in their own right, on an equal footing with the priest in charge. Of course, if the P-in-C doesn't gain this respect and the readers, NSMs etc. do, then there are a whole raft of other difficulties.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
The person who presides at the communion table does so because of a relationship s/he has with the congregation and with the universal church via the bishop.

---

So a priest presiding at Communion in a parish she's never even visited before has a more appropriate (for communion purposes) relationship with that parish than a layperson who's worshipped there for fifty years?.

---

I almost agree. That's the flaw in the catholic argument, though the official answer is, probably, that this visiting priest has a relationship to the wider church, via their bishop.

I am not convinced by this argument, despite wishing to have things neat and tidy.

Your comments, as I am sure you know, often irritate me - which is why I hope you will continue to challenge. Stops being complacent.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
While I am flattered that this thread has gone on so long (I think it's the first one I've ever started to get onto a second page, never mind a fifth) I'm getting worried that all this discussion of local ministries is becoming distinctly Purgatorial.

I've known plenty of priests, Readers, and all sorts of folk taking public roles in churches. They range across the good, the bad and the ugly but, by and large, they seem to be decent folk doing their best to do an honest job. By and large, most of the bishops I've met have been spineless wimps. That's what I'm ranting about here!
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
In that case, their almost total lack of vigorous rebuttal seems to prove your point!

Of course, we don't have Bishops. We have (wait for it) Regional Ministers among whom the "top dogs" are Team Leaders.

Squirm, O ye Anglicans, squirm!
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
though the official answer is, probably, that this visiting priest has a relationship to the wider church, via their bishop.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by *Leon*:
it sounds like too much work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I've known plenty of priests, Readers, and all sorts of folk taking public roles in churches. They range across the good, the bad and the ugly but, by and large, they seem to be decent folk doing their best to do an honest job. By and large, most of the bishops I've met have been spineless wimps. That's what I'm ranting about here!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
. I will, however say that for every incompetent, lazy, or wicked priest, there are two incompetent, badly catechized, heretical, dozy, spiritually complacent, bossy, thick-skinned, mad or self-promoting brothers and sisters who think that they could preach and celebrate the sacraments with one hand tied behind their backs. And I haven't even started on the Blue Scarfed Menace.

Not here in Summerisle, of course.

---

Well dear, of course not in Summerisle.

Because I am quite sure that Summerisle lacks an "incompetent, lazy and wicked" priest.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
I am sure that some dioceses would love to make up your shortfall!
 

---

Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by *Leon*:
it sounds like too much work.

---

REALLY?

Do you mean too much trouble, or you genuinely can't give it the time to do it properly?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
My tradition simply doesn't have that understanding of the Eucharist (and nor, I realise, do Evangelical Anglicans). We believe that the grace of Communion is conferred through the worshipper's obedience to God and spiritual thoughtfulness in taking the elements, not in any property that is inherent in the priestly ritual.

If that is the case - and if the bread and wine are not changed in any way - then it follows that anyone can preside, although for the sake of integrity and good church order it should be someone who has been duly recognised.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BroJames:
ist ecclesiology the authority lies in the Church Meeting (although it may in practise be exercised my the minister and/or deacons).

Anglican theology of that kind of ministry is that a person who is regarded as fit and proper to preside at the Lord's Supper needs also to be a fit and proper minister of the word as well. In NT terms they need to be an 'elder'. This means a significant training process is involved intended to ensure that they are competent ministers of the word. Of course it is possible to separate these two ministries, and thereby to enable a wider range of people who are authorised to preside at communion. I'm not sure whether it is desirable to separate those two ministries.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Interestingly an ordained URC (Lay) Elder moving to another church remains an Elder by designation but cannot serve until asked to be the Church (and voted in by Church Meeting).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
BTW, someone earlier moaned about OLMs not automatically being recognised in other congos and dioceses. Forgive me if I have misunderstood this, but surely the word "local" in the title gives the way: they have not been recognised to officiate beyond their particular situation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
though the official answer is, probably, that this visiting priest has a relationship to the wider church, via their bishop.

---

What, and the rest of us don't?

---

Never mind all those poor benighte4d Baptists and Independents and the like who have no relationship to the wider church at all according to this brillian theory.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
There is an issue of understanding of role differences. I know a couple of OLM's and there does seem to be a lot of confusion about the role. People (including some of the OLM's) don't understand the differences with Stipendiary, NSM and OLM.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by AberVicar:
The NHS as a model organisation?

---

quote:

---

Why do you think they've done so many 'Service Redesigns'?

---

quote:

---

If and when there's a properly argued case for changing the organisation in a radical manner, then let's use a successful model shall we?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Never mind all those poor benighte4d Baptists and Independents and the like who have no relationship to the wider church at all according to this brilliant theory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
Robert, just suppose most bishops weren't spineless wimps. What difference would it make? How would the CofE deal with it's current problems if most of the bishops did have spines?

---

quote:

---

WTF do you think the bishops you've met are representative of all the others?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Alternatively - and I hesitate to raise the spectre of "Mass Priests" - one could have a third category, which is a Minister of the Sacrament but not the Word. This seems logical, but whether (as BroJames says) it would be a good thing is another question.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
And while its not authorised in our church we ought to avoid doing things that look awfully like it but aren't really, not quite. It seems to be reinforcing a lot of silliness about magic words to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
Brilliant post Chamois. Just want to add re NHS that radical changes in maternity care have created midwife-run units which provide all the pre-natal and ante-natal care as well as the delivery. Doctors can be called in if needed but most births don't need them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
Brilliant post Chamois. Just want to add re NHS that radical changes in maternity care have created midwife-run units which provide all the pre-natal and ante-natal care as well as the delivery. Doctors can be called in if needed but most births don't need them.

---

The very situation that obtained in the 1950s.

I rest my case.

---

quote:

---

...The CofE could take a good, long, detailed look at how, what, where and when it provides for its people and design something much better. The techniques to do it are out there and there are plenty of people who know how to use them.

But 3. is the key. So, after all, it hinges on the Bishops. Do they care? Do they care enough to attempt to change the organisation?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:

Abervicar - your case is that the Church doesn't need radical change, just a bit of tweaking. Others are arguing that the present system is unsustainable

---

quote:

---

originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
Just want to add re NHS that radical changes in maternity care have created midwife-run units which provide all the pre-natal and ante-natal care as well as the delivery. Doctors can be called in if needed but most births don't need them.

---

The very situation that obtained in the 1950s.

I rest my case.

---

Or in our local hospital in the 1980s when my daughter was born. There were certainly doctors and anaethetists and so on somewhere around in a different part of the building but the people assisting at the birth and care before and afterwards were midwives.

---

Listen, were you lot born thick, or have you just been practising hard?

As you were. Let's run through it again.

The NHS is like the CofE in lots of ways. In healthcare you don't need a doctor to do everything - sometimes you don't need a doctor at all. In the church you don't need a stipendiary vicar to do everything - sometimes you don't need one at all.

The NHS has successfully negotiated movement of the boundaries between its doctors, nurses and non-professionally qualified support staff so that it can deliver services which meet patients' needs better and cost less to deliver. My point is that the CofE could do the same (if the bishops have the will to lead the process) and that if they decide to go this route they could usefully learn from the successes and the mistakes of the NHS.

Blimey, what's so hard to understand about that?



Memo to self: perhaps we should plan to provide brain transplants on the NHS now. There certainly seems to be an identified need around here.


 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I find it difficult to get used to the idea in our diocese (and probably in others) that groups of parishes are getting larger and larger, while some stipendiaries don't have any parishes (they are put in charge of a particular emphasis eg. fresh expressions or pioneer ministry). I suppose studies must have been carried out to see if that sort of arrangement is likely to be more effective, but it must be difficult as any concrete evidence is not likely to appear for many years. Meanwhile, parish priests have to become managers of large groups of churches in order to make it all work. Which must frustrate them at times, as well.
 

---

Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
Listen, were you lot born thick, or have you just been practising hard?

As you were. Let's run through it again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

My view is veering toward a radical continuity, where instead of reinventing the three-fold order, parish structure &c., we rediscover and express anew what they are meant to be in the service of the Kingdom.

---

quote:

---

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
You pays your money and you takes your choice.

---

quote:

---

Well yes but that doesn't answer the question of why it's currently deemed necessary for non-stipendiary priests who'd be ordained for sacramental liturgical purposes to have both the gifts and training of a parish vicar.

---

quote:

---

In the Church in Wales it isn't.

This of course brings lots of issues in terms of conflicting expectations on all sides. Some NSMs expect to be able to function in exactly the same role as trained stipendiaries; some lay people expect them to do what they are not allowed, or indeed are not trained or gifted, to do. In some cases the gifts are evident and further training can take place 'on the job': this has meant that some transition to full-time stipendiary ministry, and others take on a pastoral care.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:


I can't find anything

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:


I can't find anything

---

Obviously not, because you can't see clearly beyond whatever issue you've got with the way things are. Leave it behind, listen to the way things might be, and you might get beyond being an offensive twat to finding a constructive answer to your issues.

---

quote:

---

I can't find anything on NSM's in Wales to indicate that they're not allowed, trained or gifted to take on the same functions as a stipendiary. Others have given examples of NSMs operating as Priest-in-Charge and even as Incumbent. What is that they're not "allowed" to do in Wales?

---

quote:

---

"In commissioning such a review, we will all have to be prepared to take seriously its findings and to be open to the possibility of significant change in our structures, ministry, use of buildings and other resources if it is seen to be in the best interests of the church and its mission to the people and communities of Wales as we look ahead to the next decade.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
I find it difficult to get used to the idea in our diocese (and probably in others) that groups of parishes are getting larger and larger, while some stipendiaries don't have any parishes (they are put in charge of a particular emphasis eg. fresh expressions or pioneer ministry). I suppose studies must have been carried out to see if that sort of arrangement is likely to be more effective, but it must be difficult as any concrete evidence is not likely to appear for many years.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
One good place to start could be to recognise that the C in W is not like the Cof E, but with a different accent.....

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quote:

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Notes
A Non Stipendiary Minister (Deacon or Priest) is someone with at least two vocations — one to ordained ministry and one to another form of work. The NSM will not receive payment for any church-based clerical ministry, but might be paid for his or her other employment. (‘Might’, because that other employment could be something like bringing up children or caring for a disabled family member.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:
She's gone to bed obviously.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
though the official answer is, probably, that this visiting priest has a relationship to the wider church, via their bishop.

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What, and the rest of us don't?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chamois:
[
The NHS has successfully negotiated movement of the boundaries between its doctors, nurses and non-professionally qualified support staff so that it can deliver services which meet patients' needs better and cost less to deliver.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
though the official answer is, probably, that this visiting priest has a relationship to the wider church, via their bishop.

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What, and the rest of us don't?

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Something to do with apostolic succession.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
though the official answer is, probably, that this visiting priest has a relationship to the wider church, via their bishop.

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What, and the rest of us don't?

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Something to do with apostolic succession.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And it's me that's supposed to be at risk of making it all sound too much like "magic"???

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quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:

.....picking over minor linguistic issues having completely misread posts and having failed to grasp those things and minor courtesies that really matter.

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quote:

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It seems to me that you are fixated on principles while I am talking about what is done in practice.

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quote:

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…….the large-scale structural stuff which you seem obsessed with and which are matters for those involved in producing documents.

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quote:

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1. Everyone affected by the change is informed, engaged, consulted and genuinely made to feel that they themselves and their opinions are valued

2. The people organising the re-design process are open to the views of others and willing and able to change their ideas in response.

3. There is inspired and committed leadership from the upper levels of the organisation.

---

This comes from someone with experience of such a process. Someone who is able to point to the structural similarities between the CofE and the NHS. All you can do is rubbish it According to you Chamois’ suggestions are not relevant because the NHS is not a “parallel” structure. It doesn’t have to be parallel to provide a helpful example. There are enough similarities to make it a useful comparison. This same goes for the Methodist Church and other non-Episcopal churches. There’s something to be learned from looking at different structures.

According to you no-one should be discussing the large-scale structural changes that are needed because these are “matters for those involved in producing documents.” You handbag

Robert Armin has raised issues about bishops. You challenged him about how many bishops he’d known; he answered and asked you the same question, which you’ve ignored. It may ruffle a few feathers to hear bishops described as “bureaucrats, spineless pen pushers, whose only care is to keep their noses clean so that may advance higher up the episcopal ladder” but clearly this is the reality of how at least some clergy and others have experienced most of the bishops they’ve had contact with.

RA asked, “Is it possible that ALL religious hierarchies are corrupt? That once you start exercising power, and ordering other people about, you lose the values that should be guiding you? “ This goes to the root of how we want the Church to operate. Being precious about hierarchical status, trying to silence anyone who challenges, just gets in the way and makes it impossible to face reality.

From sebby:

quote:

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The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

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quote:

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Originally posted by GreyFace:
Jesus told the Apostles to celebrate the Eucharist at the Last Supper and gave them the authority both to choose their successors, and to delegate celebrants when they weren't around. If you don't have that, then you don't have the so-called holy orders, the chain of authority stretching back to Jesus at the Last Supper.

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quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

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From sebby: [QUOTE] The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

---

That’s the reality.

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quote:

---

Out of interest, how many Bishops have you worked for? And how many have have been helpful when you needed it?

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quote:

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52 Q12 Are there occasions when your congregation would like to have a Communion service but is unable to do so because a minister is not available?

Just over a quarter of respondents answered ‘Yes’ to this question. The most common reason given was ‘not enough ministers’, but reasons connected with bad planning were also given.

53 Q12a What would you regard as the best solution to this problem?
A wide variety of solutions was suggested. Some respondents saw the possibility of changing service times, encouraging congregations to come together or sharing with other denominations. Some felt that there could be better use of ministers, including supernumeraries and ministers of other denominations. Among those who advocated some kind of authorisation there was a variety of proposals. Stewards, Local Preachers, Worship Leaders, deacons, Lay Workers, probationers and Communion Stewards were all mentioned, together with ‘ordinary’ or ‘competent’ lay people or those ‘of good standing’. Underlying these suggestions may be discerned a variety of theological ideas. Some discerned a need for training (‘competence’ was also mentioned). Some emphasised prayerful discernment. Some suggested appointment by the Circuit, others by the congregation. Some looked for seniority, good standing or those well established in an office, others for all those in a category (such as Local Preacher) to be eligible. No one specifically mentioned authorisation by the Conference.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
modelling the Church on the NHS is not going to help in any way

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I was impressed by justlooking's summary, and I presume that that is what Chamois was advocating.

ETA And for those steps to work the Bishops would have to show a lot more humility and pastoral care than is their wont!

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quote:

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At present in the CofE it doesn't appear that any of these criteria are fulfilled. But they could be. The CofE could take a good, long, detailed look at how, what, where and when it provides for its people and design something much better. The techniques to do it are out there and there are plenty of people who know how to use them.

But 3. is the key. So, after all, it hinges on the Bishops. Do they care? Do they care enough to attempt to change the organisation?

Back to square one. And back to the OP.

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quote:

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Originally posted by BroJames:

quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

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From sebby: [QUOTE] The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

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That’s the reality.

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Actually although money is a challenge it is not the biggest issue facing the church.

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quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:
I'm also impressed with the way the Methodists consult and involve their members. Why does the CofE find it so difficult?

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quote:

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Originally posted by GreyFace:
The simplified form of that is that Jesus told the Apostles to celebrate the Eucharist at the Last Supper

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
During His ministry, He told the Apostles to do an awful lot of other stuff as well, pretty much all of which is taken as applying to all Christians. Why is performing the Eucharist the sole teaching that applies only to the Apostles?

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quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:
It's the process Chamois outlined that I think the CofE could learn from.

1. Everyone affected by the change is informed, engaged, consulted and genuinely made to feel that they themselves and their opinions are valued

2. The people organising the re-design process are open to the views of others and willing and able to change their ideas in response.

3. There is inspired and committed leadership from the upper levels of the organisation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:
The NHS as a model organisation?

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quote:

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Why do you think they've done so many 'Service Redesigns'?

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quote:

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Or perhaps just gently tweak what we've inherited and work together to make sure it continues to serve the Gospel. After all, the strategy has actually worked for 2000 years...

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quote:

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Originally posted by anne:
As a matter of interest, is this really the experience of most NHS workers involved in the re-structuring of the NHS? Does the average nurse/technician/cleaner feel that they are lead by "inspired and committed" people? Do they all feel "informed, engaged, consulted and valued" by the process? Because if they do, someone should tell the unions, the media and pretty much everyone I know who works for the NHS!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
At least if the tradition of the church is bollocks, it's not our bollocks but just part of the way things are, so we have to live with it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

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Or perhaps just gently tweak what we've inherited and work together to make sure it continues to serve the Gospel. After all, the strategy has actually worked for 2000 years...

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For some definition of "worked" that includes massive secularism, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation, various abuse scandals, ...

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quote:

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It's a shame AberVicar is having a few days off. (Robert Armin)

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quote:

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Out of interest, how many Bishops have you worked for? And how many have have been helpful when you needed it?

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quote:

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Nobody on this thread has suggested modeling the Church (or even the CofE) on the NHS.(Chamois)

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quote:

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You are using the technique of political language that George Orwell wrote so scathingly about (justlooking)

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quote:

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It works for the clergy, because it keeps them in their positions of power and influence over their congregations, dioceses and/or countries. (Marvin the Martian)

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quote:

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Being precious about hierarchical status, trying to silence anyone who challenges, just gets in the way and makes it impossible to face reality.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

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It works for the clergy, because it keeps them in their positions of power and influence over their congregations, dioceses and/or countries. (Marvin the Martian)

---

This brings out again the fact that there is another agenda in the discussion. Does Marvin's statement arise from a resentment or jealousy of power, or a desire that no one should have power, or that Marvin should have more power than Marvin has?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:

quote:

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It works for the clergy, because it keeps them in their positions of power and influence over their congregations, dioceses and/or countries. (Marvin the Martian)

---

This brings out again the fact that there is another agenda in the discussion. Does Marvin's statement arise from a resentment or jealousy of power, or a desire that no one should have power, or that Marvin should have more power than Marvin has?

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All three, of course.

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Touché!

P.S. I think I've said all I have to say in this 'dialogue of the deaf' so I'll be returning to RL for a bit, if you don't mind. In 20 years' time we might discover who was right...
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
I'm not sure it's been a dialogue of the deaf. I've appreciated your views here, and the point that none of us knows enough Bishops to pronounce with authority is well made. Luckily this isn't Purgatory, where valid arguements are required and proof is essential. This is Hell, where we vent. Venting here has certainly been useful to me - and it has also been useful to be reminded that I'm not seeing the full picture.
 

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Posted by Dave Marshall (# 7533) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:
Perhaps you want to sweep away all the stuff we recognise as Church. Fine: Dave Marshall is waiting in the wings to welcome you with open arms.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:
justlooking has admitted to issues with Readers' Conferences and appears to have issues with hierarchy in general. Sadly this is quite common with Readers and holders of similar lay ministries worldwide.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:

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Originally posted by BroJames:

quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:

quote:

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From sebby: [QUOTE] The truth is that the money has run out. If if hadn't, there is no way the diocese would be administered in that way. They can dress it up in all sorts of absurd and pseudo-theological jargon: 'mission communities' ; empowering the laity ; exciting challenges and so on, but it comes down to one fact: there's no money.

---

That’s the reality.

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Actually although money is a challenge it is not the biggest issue facing the church.

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Our diocese is giving the impression that there is plenty of money, there for the taking. Bids from £1,000 to £100,000 have been invited, but it must be for mission / outreach initiatives. And only available to those parishes who get their act together and put forward a bid by a certain date.

Meanwhile, the bread and butter ordinary work of the church is still desperately short of money.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

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Originally posted by justlooking:
I'm also impressed with the way the Methodists consult and involve their members. Why does the CofE find it so difficult?

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Good question. In theory, it should work. First, at ground level, there's the Parochial Church council, who send off reps to the Deanery Synod, then next to the Diocesan Synod, and on to the General Synod, where voting in houses of Lay and Clergy take place. And committees, for discussion and the production of reports, combine lay and clergy, too.

But it's still so clunky and cumbersome and riddled with problems. Partly due to the practicality of numbers? Clericalism - more likely a negative issue for Anglicans than Methodists?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by *Leon*:

quote:

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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
BTW, someone earlier moaned about OLMs not automatically being recognised in other congos and dioceses. Forgive me if I have misunderstood this, but surely the word "local" in the title gives the way: they have not been recognised to officiate beyond their particular situation.

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That may have been me. There are 2 issues here.

Firstly, other congos. There should be some rational process for deciding whether it's appropriate to transfer the ministry to another congo. That exists for readers (who have a similar local role), but not for OLMs. This is silly, but is a consequence of the church being slow to invent obviously-needed procedures.

Secondly, other diocese. Some diocese have OLMs. Some don't. Obviously, if you move out of a diocese that has OLMs, you stop being one. Whether you become a NSM or a non-licensed priest is probably a matter of luck.

Both issues can be summarised as: OLMs are a good idea, but the CofE hasn't actually finished the process of inventing them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sebby:

The OLM fallacy appears to be that in an episcopal church the 'local' church is the diocese not the parish.

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quote:

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Originally posted by AberVicar:
......But you have missed my point, which is that neither you nor I (nor the very small number of people who are contributing to this thread) can extrapolate our own experience into a general judgement of all the world's bishops or the office of Bishop in general.

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quote:

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You are using the technique of political language that George Orwell wrote so scathingly about (justlooking)

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quote:

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I love it when I read historians peddling words like 'demagogue'. Why? Because you know they have run out of arguments, and you can so easliy discern their bias. Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin - fine. Churchill - maybe not so fine. Language - especially persuasive language - can in one and the the same case be considered either inspiring or corrupting (which is what Orwell was trying to show).

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quote:

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A start can be when those in a 'ministry team' are prepared to work together in addressing the growth of the Kingdom. This does not mean 'you keep Parish X happy by doing Morning Prayer or Messy Church with them, and I'll do a monthly Communion'; it means we all commit together for whatever it takes to help people grow in faith and in prayerful witness……

……….So something far more radical and for more demanding is required. Strangely, when this happens, volunteers start to come out of the woodwork. But it needs prayer and hard work to lay the foundations - and the willingness to try things we would not otherwise have contemplated.

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quote:

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justlooking has admitted to issues with Readers' Conferences and appears to have issues with hierarchy in general. Sadly this is quite common with Readers and holders of similar lay ministries worldwide.

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quote:

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Since this Hell I'd like to add a personal peeve about the Chairman's address to the latest CRC (Central Readers' Council) conference. He complains that by wearing robes Readers are "dressing up like Vicars", encouraging clericalism and confusing congregations. What we are doing is dressing up like Readers, encouraging lay ministry and being no more confusing than robed choirs, altar servers and any other lay person who robes. Try talking with Readers instead of talking at us. That goes for the whole CRC set-up - the Church of Engalnd at it's absolute bloody worst.

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quote:

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1.1.3 ……… Readers, by virtue of their training and experience, are a great resource for the service of the whole Church; a resource which is theologically articulate, spiritually mature and ministerially skilled. This resource needs to be used to the full. At present, around 10,000 Readers quietly and faithfully undertake their work at the grass roots but are too often unrecognised; their work has been neglected and their potential underestimated.
............
1.1.4 Reader ministry is distinct from the many burgeoning lay ministries in parishes and
dioceses because it is thoroughly trained and is licensed by the bishop. It is nationally
accredited and transferable across the Church of England and beyond. This report presents for consideration the case for a clear distinction between licensed ministries, as nationally accredited and transferable, and those ministries belonging only to a particular diocese,...... . All resources need to be utilised to maximum effect in the spread of the Gospel.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by sebby:

The OLM fallacy appears to be that in an episcopal church the 'local' church is the diocese not the parish.

---

That is certainly a fallacy - the local church is the local church, the congregtion, not a diocese which is a political arrangement between churches.

But I don't see what that's got to do with OLMs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Think²:
What is the advantage of having a reader rather than a part time NSM ? Come to that, what is the difference from the reader's point of view?

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The training must still be a lot easier to fit in around a busy life, for one thing. You are more likely to get someone coming forward from a church for Reader training than for Ordination, so the church can benefit more quickly from extra help with services. Some women will happily become readers even if they don't still quite agree with Ordination of Women.
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
OK what does a part time nsm do that a readers training doesn't cover? What is the additional traning making possible ? Or is the extra training just a commitment filter ?

[ 21. April 2012, 09:04: Message edited by: Think² ]
 

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Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
I love that when you hit add reply, the software tells you "Going to bugger the bishops
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 
Readers are called to a lay ministry, not to ordained ministry. That's the main difference. It's a specific calling to preach and teach as a minister of the Word. Readers may do all kinds of other things, including pastoral work but the essential vocation is a lay minister of the Word. NSM's are called to ordained ministry, deacons and priests. Some may be permanent deacons but it isn't the same as the Methodist diaconate.

The essential vocation of an NSM is the same as a full-time stipendiary. Plus, as the CofW quote above explains, an NSM also has a vocation to their secular work or family role.

The big difference will be sacramental ministry and whatever it is that ordination confers.

If a Reader was able to preside at Communion then, from the point of view of a congregation, there may be no difference between the Reader and NSM. It all depends on what the NSM's role is.

From my point of view the Church need to be able to articulate what ordination means if it isn't primarily about performing particualr functions. Because relying on the sacramental argument isn't enough. Baptism is a sacrament that any lay person can perform effectively. Church baptism is to ensure that the sacrament is conducted properly, that there is preparation and that the wider church is involved. But the sacrament itself doesn't need an ordained person. Even Apostolic succession and the importance of the laying on of hands isn't unique to ordination. Anyone who's been confirmed will have had the laying on of hands from a bishop along with invocation of the Holy Spirit.

I see ordination as the passing on of a sacred trust to those who are able to bear the weight of that trust. Similar to the vows taken by those in religious orders. A nun may work as a nurse or doctor alongside lay colleagues so what would be the difference between a religious medic and a lay medic? I think that's probably where the difference lies between ordained and lay ministry in the Church.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Another category I came across recently is 'perpetual deacon'. I've not had chance yet to explore what that actually means. But I'm guessing it's rather similar to what women had to be content with before women priests were allowed - always a deacon but never a priest.

Some people choose to become perpetual deacons because they know they don't want the full commitment of being a priest, but they do have to commit a certain number of hours per week to the role.
 

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Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
Readers are called to a lay ministry, not to ordained ministry. That's the main difference. It's a specific calling to preach and teach as a minister of the Word. Readers may do all kinds of other things, including pastoral work but the essential vocation is a lay minister of the Word. NSM's are called to ordained ministry, deacons and priests. Some may be permanent deacons but it isn't the same as the Methodist diaconate.

The essential vocation of an NSM is the same as a full-time stipendiary. Plus, as the CofW quote above explains, an NSM also has a vocation to their secular work or family role.

The big difference will be sacramental ministry and whatever it is that ordination confers.

If a Reader was able to preside at Communion then, from the point of view of a congregation, there may be no difference between the Reader and NSM. It all depends on what the NSM's role is.

From my point of view the Church need to be able to articulate what ordination means if it isn't primarily about performing particualr functions. Because relying on the sacramental argument isn't enough. Baptism is a sacrament that any lay person can perform effectively. Church baptism is to ensure that the sacrament is conducted properly, that there is preparation and that the wider church is involved. But the sacrament itself doesn't need an ordained person. Even Apostolic succession and the importance of the laying on of hands isn't unique to ordination. Anyone who's been confirmed will have had the laying on of hands from a bishop along with invocation of the Holy Spirit.

I see ordination as the passing on of a sacred trust to those who are able to bear the weight of that trust. Similar to the vows taken by those in religious orders. A nun may work as a nurse or doctor alongside lay colleagues so what would be the difference between a religious medic and a lay medic? I think that's probably where the difference lies between ordained and lay ministry in the Church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:

quote:

---

Originally posted by justlooking:
Readers are called to a lay ministry, not to ordained ministry. That's the main difference. It's a specific calling to preach and teach as a minister of the Word. Readers may do all kinds of other things, including pastoral work but the essential vocation is a lay minister of the Word. NSM's are called to ordained ministry, deacons and priests. Some may be permanent deacons but it isn't the same as the Methodist diaconate.

The essential vocation of an NSM is the same as a full-time stipendiary. Plus, as the CofW quote above explains, an NSM also has a vocation to their secular work or family role.


If a Reader was able to preside at Communion then, from the point of view of a congregation, there may be no difference between the Reader and NSM. It all depends on what the NSM's role is.


From my point of view the Church need to be able to articulate what ordination means if it isn't primarily about performing particualr functions. Because relying on the sacramental argument isn't enough. Baptism is a sacrament that any lay person can perform effectively. Church baptism is to ensure that the sacrament is conducted properly, that there is preparation and that the wider church is involved. But the sacrament itself doesn't need an ordained person. Even Apostolic succession and the importance of the laying on of hands isn't unique to ordination. Anyone who's been confirmed will have had the laying on of hands from a bishop along with invocation of the Holy Spirit.

I see ordination as the passing on of a sacred trust to those who are able to bear the weight of that trust. Similar to the vows taken by those in religious orders. A nun may work as a nurse or doctor alongside lay colleagues so what would be the difference between a religious medic and a lay medic? I think that's probably where the difference lies between ordained and lay ministry in the Church.

---

---

quote:

---

If a Reader was able to preside at Communion then

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Another category I came across recently is 'perpetual deacon'. I've not had chance yet to explore what that actually means. But I'm guessing it's rather similar to what women had to be content with before women priests were allowed - always a deacon but never a priest.

Some people choose to become perpetual deacons because they know they don't want the full commitment of being a priest, but they do have to commit a certain number of hours per week to the role.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

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If a Reader was able to preside at Communion then

---

................ they would be a priest. And since they are not .....

AtB, Pyx_e

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Have I told you lately Pyx_e that I love you?


 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sebby:
.......I would be interested to hear about the nature of the Methodist diaconate. I have come across a Methodist deacon in a clerical collar and blue shirt. I presume this must imply they are also set aside and ordained?

---

quote:

---

How does the office of deacon relate to other roles in the Church?
Deacons, presbyters and lay workers are all interdependent and equal members of the Church, and in this way reflect the trinity of God, Jesus and Holy Spirit. The Church should be a community of mutual support and love, in which there is no superiority or inferiority, and deacons along with the other roles aim to live this out.

So what is distinctive about their role?
The deacon’s primary purpose is to enable others for God's mission in the world. Deacons do this by acting as a model or a pioneer and often offer specialist skills........

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by *Leon*:
I'd say the benefits of a reader as opposed to a NSM are mostly for the reader/NSM, not the congregation. Specifically:

Many people find it impossible to combine part time ordination training with a full time job.
A reader is much more in control of which church they go to than a NSM is.
The commitment in terms of hours once on the job is liable to be lower and more flexible.

Where they exist, OLMs are probably trying to be approximately like readers who can celebrate communion. But that's not quite what happens in practice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
Justlookin, that seems like a circular argument - its different because they are ordained. But aside from the ritual of communion, it is not clear how being ordained or lay makes difference. so you train longer for ordination - or the church organises posts differently - but that doesn't really explain what makes the lay ministry different. Do you preach and teach the word differently to a NSM ?

If one accepts the priest as sacrament argument fair enough, but I think a lot of the cofe don't understand it that way - but more pertinantely, it doesn't really explain how one senses a vocation to preach nd give a limited range of rituals but specially not feel called to do this other ritual over here.

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quote:

---

So what is distinctive about their role?
The deacon’s primary purpose is to enable others for God's mission in the world. Deacons do this by acting as a model or a pioneer and often offer specialist skills. However they always seek to work collaboratively, helping others develop their gifts. As members of a religious order they follow a rule of life that empowers their ministry and includes prayerful and practical support of other deacons.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Think²:
Justlookin, that seems like a circular argument - its different because they are ordained. But aside from the ritual of communion, it is not clear how being ordained or lay makes difference. so you train longer for ordination - or the church organises posts differently - but that doesn't really explain what makes the lay ministry different. Do you preach and teach the word differently to a NSM ?

If one accepts the priest as sacrament argument fair enough, but I think a lot of the cofe don't understand it that way - but more pertinantely, it doesn't really explain how one senses a vocation to preach nd give a limited range of rituals but specially not feel called to do this other ritual over here.

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Originally posted by sebby:
There is the important question of what those OUTSIDE the church in the wider community think.

Whatever the committed may judge of the theological rights and wrongs, subconsciously the clientele in the local pub DO think of the priest as a walking sacrament, (but clearly wouldn't use or understand that term, or necessarily believe in Christianity) ; to them the priest is a living and walking representative of the whole church.

The very sight of a clerical collar to a drunk usually proves that to be true.

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The role of a lay reader is purely liturgical it is a purely functional role. They do not have to promise to do any of the pastoral elements in the ordinal that a Priest does.

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The Duties of a Reader
Readers may:
�� Preach
�� Lead worship, except those services and parts of services specifically excluded by Canon
�� Read the Old or New Testament readings, Epistle or Gospel at any service
�� Lead intercessions
�� Receive and present the offerings of the people
�� Distribute the consecrated bread and wine to the people
�� Take Communion to the sick and housebound
�� Publish banns of marriage in the absence of a priest
�� Undertake pastoral and educational work
�� Assist any minister as the bishop may direct

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And the distinctiveness of Reader ministry is not being recognised or so it appears from the Bishop of Sodor and Man's address to the most recent CRC conference.

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
justlooking:

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And the distinctiveness of Reader ministry is not being recognised or so it appears from the Bishop of Sodor and Man's address to the most recent CRC conference.

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Was that talk an acknowledgement lack of recognition, or an example of it, I wonder. Clergy and lay readers in that diocese used to joke that the Bishop's motto was, "You'll do things my way," as he would regularly berate them on the ONLY correct way to take a funeral, do pastoral work, celebrate communion etc.

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I was afraid of that. Do you have a link to his speech?

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However, the way we appear in worship, indistinguishable from those who are ordained, except to the trained eye, undermines our vital lay-ness. ......

Sometimes, when I emphasise the lay-ness of Reader ministry I am criticised for appearing to down-grade the ministry of the Word which is central to our life. Such critics clearly don't know me very well! When I emphasise lay-ness and question all this dressing-up to look like vicars, I am in no way undermining Readers' ministry of the word.

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Although we dress you up in a service like this to look like a kind of vicar .........‐

.....Your ministry as Readers is to get out there with normal people doing normal things and demonstrate that full humanity is in Christ.
So that's what we pray for you. Don't become sanctuary rats - for the love of Jesus get out there with the love of Jesus and folk will ask the question you can answer.

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Originally posted by justlooking:
Some dioceses are now developing a range of authorised and licensed lay ministries including some that overlap with Reader ministry

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
But the title and training of reader is because of their authority to lead worhip. Not to lead confirmation classes or take sunday school or wnatever else they are cabable of.

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Originally posted by sebby:
Ecclesiologically, the local church is the people of God gathered around the bishop and this is expressed theologically in the revised Ordinal of the Church of England. The diocese is the 'local' unit, not the parish or a congregation.

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Originally posted by Chorister:

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Originally posted by Think²:
What is the advantage of having a reader rather than a part time NSM ? Come to that, what is the difference from the reader's point of view?

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The training must still be a lot easier to fit in around a busy life, for one thing.

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Originally posted by sebby:
There is the important question of what those OUTSIDE the church in the wider community think.

Whatever the committed may judge of the theological rights and wrongs, subconsciously the clientele in the local pub DO think of the priest as a walking sacrament, (but clearly wouldn't use or understand that term, or necessarily believe in Christianity) ; to them the priest is a living and walking representative of the whole church.

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Anglo-Catholics will find it hard to believe but, partly because of this Ship, and partly because of the Reader training, I actually know a lot more about Anglican liturgy than some ordained clerics of my accquantance.

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
No Leo I am not ignorant - that is what the reader function is it is a liturgical funtion.

Many readers of course will do much more and many other things as well, but that is not because they have to do them as a reader but because they are the person they are.

Many readers may be involved in a lot of what they do anyway, even if they were not a reader.

I have known a lot of readers and each one has been a capable person who had a different ministry. But the title and training of reader is because of their authority to lead worhip. Not to lead confirmation classes or take sunday school or wnatever else they are cabable of.

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Originally posted by ken:
Anglo-Catholics will find it hard to believe but, partly because of this Ship, and partly because of the Reader training, I actually know a lot more about Anglican liturgy than some ordained clerics of my accquantance.

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Originally posted by ken:
I am convinced that I would be seen and treated differently if I was ordained, and that it would become harder, maybe almost impossible, to be treated as an equal.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
God may be able to do more in 5 seconds than you can do in fifty years, but His record on keeping the paperwork up to date is woeful. And I can't remember the last time He turned up to lead a funeral...

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Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Risking throwing a spanner in the works but doing it anyway, where does that L word fit in with Readers or The Ordained?

Even the very word Leadership is vastly loathed in some circles, but it seems to me that just occasionally a priest has to lead. Or is everyting going to be worked out in interminable pcc meetings?

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Originally posted by Charles Read:
..... +Soder & Man is very supportive of Reader ministry and some comments above on his lecture misunderstand him. Further, he is not the bishop who berated his clergy / readers for 'doing it wrong' - remember other bishops have been styled +Soder & Man!

next, both +Robert's work and mine argue for Readers as key agents in mission - pioneer ministers maybe - and for Readers to be given more responsibility. ......

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second, +Soder & Man is very supportive of Reader ministry and some comments above on his lecture misunderstand him. Further, he is not the bishop who berated his clergy / readers for 'doing it wrong' - remember other bishops have been styled +Soder & Man!

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Originally posted by justlooking:

Typically a Reader may preach once or twice a month wearing cassock, surplice and blue preaching scarf. On the Sundays when they are not preaching they will sit with the rest of the congregation. So there is no confusion about the fact that they are lay people. Other lay people may also wear robes for performing certain functions in worship. The purpose of robes is to give prominence to the function rather than the person.

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Originally posted by Spike:
...... it seems anyone dressed in black and white robes can easily be mistaken for clergy by those not "in the know".

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Bishops-1 for, 0 against, 0 abstentions;
Clergy-5 for, 12 against, 0 abstentions;
Laity-21 for, 15 against, 1 abstention.

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....I am haunted by my failure to have gone through it in detail at a ministry training session, explaining what each part of it seeks to achieve, whether or not the doubters would be convinced. I have been part of this process for so long that I did not realise how much background to the document is in my head.

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This second piece of evidence - personal experience - can only be taken on trust, …..
…….During the last decade and a half I have been privileged to have been round the table at a number of such gatherings in various parts of the world. It is obvious that I failed to communicate this experience and the trust I put in the international oversight of the Archbishop of Canterbury. .....

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From 1972 to 1973 he was a curate in Manchester and then transferred to the Church in Wales where he undertook a further curacy in the Diocese of Swansea and Brecon from 1973 to 1978. From 1978 to 1983 he was Rector of two parishes and World Mission Officer. From 1983 to 1994 he was a Vicar in Cardiff and then Team Rector until 2000 in Cowbridge, Vale of Glamorgan.

From 2000 to 2006 he was Principal Officer of the Church in Wales Council for Mission and Ministry. He has served on a number of national and international bodies, and has been Vice Chair of the Anglican Primates' working group on theological education.

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He may be one of Robert Armin's 'pen-pushers'. Bishop of the Isle of Man is hardly a full-time post so I suppose that's why the CRC has got him.
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
(seconding the suggestion to sort CRC website)
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

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Originally posted by justlooking:
Bishop of the Isle of Man is hardly a full-time post

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Don't forget he also has to look after the Isle of Sodor

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Originally posted by Charles Read:
I think one of his tasks must be to inject some life and vitality into the diocese - at least he has allowed women clergy in!

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by sebby:
Ecclesiologically, the local church is the people of God gathered around the bishop and this is expressed theologically in the revised Ordinal of the Church of England. The diocese is the 'local' unit, not the parish or a congregation.

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The exact opposite of what you said in your previous post, where you correctly identified that as a fallacy. Because it is. It is the gathered congregation, that is the actual congregation, the people present in one place, who are the primary instantiation of the Church on earth.

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Originally posted by Charles Read:
I think one of his tasks must be to inject some life and vitality into the diocese - at least he has allowed women clergy in!

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by justlooking:
Bishop of the Isle of Man is hardly a full-time post

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Don't forget he also has to look after the Isle of Sodor - can't be an easy task, that!

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.... The Sudreys became "Sodor",[1] which was fossilised in the name of the Diocese, long after it ceased to have any authority over the Scottish Islands. ....

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
When Oh When are we going to see that God can do more in 5 seconds thatn I can do in fifty years?

AtB, Pyx_e

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Originally posted by Steve H:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
When Oh When are we going to see that God can do more in 5 seconds thatn I can do in fifty years?

AtB, Pyx_e

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So why doesn't s/he?

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S/he does. You are probably just not looking in the right direction during the crucial five seconds.
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 

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Originally posted by PD:
... FWIW, I am unconvinced that women clergy, or any other sort of clergy, do anything for the vitality of a diocese simply by existing. It all comes down to whether or not they get off their arses and do something vaguely related to getting people interested in the Gospel of Christ.

PD

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Originally posted by Chorister:
Because God prefers to watch Pyx_e working his socks off for 50 years.

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It could be argued that men have treated women badly over the centuries not simply because they are men, but because they have power - just as the rich have always exploited the poor, imperialists dominated their colonies ...

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...authority ought not to be about power but about service. The challenge is how to shape the Church and its institutional structures to reflect this. Giving women equal access to power will not itself solve the problem.

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+Sodor&Man's published addresses give an impression that he's engaged upon the task of bringing radical change to Reader ministry. He has created a false dichotomy

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