Ship of Fools: The Great Prats Redefined

Thread: The Great Prats Redefined Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Etymological Evangelical, Drewthealexander, Ramarius - you are all prats. Big fat pietistic prats.

You've driven me away from the faith. You've driven me into the arms of unbelief. I'm apostasising NOW ... and it's all your fault!

I hope you can live with yourselves. I hope you can live with yourselves as I roast in eternal Hell-fire.

Or perhaps you'd enjoy that ... St Augustine said that this would be one of the pleasures of the Saved ... or was it someone else.

I don't know. I don't care any more. I'm doomed ... doomed ... doomed ...

[Mad]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Good grief, Gamalial. [Roll Eyes]

Now you've gone and whipped yourself into a frenzied tantrum. I think someone needs a nap and some time off from Purg.

Here's your buppy.

Now when you wake up and Mum gives you a cookie and a glass of milk and you are feeling much better, say to yourself: "They are just some guys (and/or prats) with some opinions. It's really nothing to do with me."

Repeat as necessary. There's a good boy. [Angel]

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

You can't burn in a hell you don't believe in - or you'll disappear in a puff of logic.

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

Vastly annoying as some people can be, as Lyda*Rose says, no-one can MAKE you do anything (by the same token, you can't MAKE anyone do anything). Unless they have a gun to your head, in which case it doesn't count since it's duress.

It may be that you are ready to leave the faith for a while (*apostate* might be too strong a term) - in order to rethink, regroup - in which case, they might even have done you a favour by giving you the reason to take time out (an old cliché, I know, but your greatest enemy can be your best teacher).

Take care, Gam.

@ Miss: [Killing me]

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

Perhaps the solution is far more simple, Gamaliel; have you considered having a PSA test for your apostate gland?

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

you don't get any funnier do ya, Goat Crack?

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

Yo' momma was so ugly, the only beauty contest she was ever allowed to enter had "Best of Breed" as top prize, JahScuzz.

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

Best of Breed = Top Beyotchki [Big Grin]

Unfunny poster who thinks he's funny = Epsilon - *

* reference for SF coz I'm pretty sure he won't get it without being explicitly told

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

What are you going on about? [Confused]

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

To whom are you addressing that question, Beeswax Alter?
Personally, I'm just pissed off because today is my birthday, and now the fucking threads are showing the date as June 5 - not June 4.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Gamaliel

I want to know why he started the thread.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

He and the Evil Evo-Krisma triplets have been splitting hairs about certainty in the "Great Sins Redefined" and "Speaking in Tongues" threads. I had to stop reading. My head was about to explode. In essence, they all think they are Right about one thing or another. And both sides are sure that the other lacks humility in their opinions.

Yeah, both sides are right about that one. They're a bunch of egotistical jerkwads. [brick wall]

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
He and the Evil Evo-Krisma triplets have been splitting hairs about certainty in the "Great Sins Redefined" and "Speaking in Tongues" threads. I had to stop reading. My head was about to explode. In essence, they all think they are Right about one thing or another. And both sides are sure that the other lacks humility in their opinions.

Yeah, both sides are right about that one. They're a bunch of egotistical jerkwads.

Druther have all four of them Someone Is Wrong on the Internet-ing than spreading that shite about like high class fertilizer in an Asshole Garden.

Because Lord knows we got enough of those around here.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

That's so one of my favorite pics.

I might put it on my tombstone. (Right next to psalm 100).

[ 05. June 2012, 02:22: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Aw. I don't think Gamaliel really has it in him to be vicious enough for a truly vicious Hell call. It's a bit like watching Ned Flanders swear.

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That's so one of my favorite pics.

I might put it on my tombstone.

You will be prompt about that, Sweetie?

Posted by Silver Faux (# 8783) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Gamaliel

I want to know why he started the thread.

Beezer, old chap, if you click on the last 50 posts of Gamaliel, you will find him active on some Purgatory posts.
Do the same for his callees, you will find them on the same posts.
Then you will have answered your own question.
I'm just sayin'...

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Druther have all four of them Someone Is Wrong on the Internet-ing than spreading that shite about like high class fertilizer in an Asshole Garden.

Because Lord knows we got enough of those around here.

I've got to ask, what's an "Asshole Garden"? I'm not going to Google that with my wife wandering around!

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Too much red wine last night Gamaliel?

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

psst Boogie - more likely real ale, and don't ask more unless you like and are interested in real ale

Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on :

Do decimopietists and other conservative Catholics belong to CAMRAM - the Campaign for Real 'Ail Marys?

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
Etymological Evangelical, Drewthealexander, Ramarius - you are all prats. Big fat pietistic prats.

You've driven me away from the faith. You've driven me into the arms of unbelief. I'm apostasising NOW ... and it's all your fault!

I hope you can live with yourselves. I hope you can live with yourselves as I roast in eternal Hell-fire.

What a big baby.

Ever heard of something called "thinking for yourself", dear chap?

No... I didn't think so.

Posted by Socratic-enigma (# 12074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What a big baby.

And this from the wuss who got his panties in a twist about speaking in tongues … Sheesh!

I think it’s time the Ship considered a new board – Babylon (for those who babble on and on… and on, about issues of minimal or no importance) There is something particularly unedifying about middle-aged men who delight in giving each other wedgies. Those whose maturity has not progressed past Bart Simpson level should be isolated where they may quibble about the number of angels on the head of a pin to their heart's content without affecting or infecting the rest of us.

S-E

(unofficially of course, it would be known as The Wankers’ Room)

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
I think it’s time the Ship considered a new board – Babylon (for those who babble on and on… and on, about issues of minimal or no importance)

*cough*

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

SE would be host. Of course.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

{{{{{{{Gamaliel}}}}}}}

IMHO, don't let idiots drive you from your beliefs. If you need a vacation from Christianity or to walk away altogether, fine. But there are always going to be idiots somewhere.

YMMV.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally farted up by Socratic-enigma
I think it’s time the Ship considered a new board – Babylon (for those who babble on and on… and on, about issues of minimal or no importance)

Code for: "...about issues - such as epistemology - that I am too thick to understand, and in which I have no interest. But I am so arrogant that I can't bear just to ignore such threads and concentrate on those I am interested in, and like all small-minded "up your arse" petty minded despots, I want to prevent other people from discussing issues which I don't "get". And like my mate Gamaliel, I can't bear contradiction of any kind, and when it appears I throw the Ship's biggest tantrum. But that's OK, because puerile tantrums give me my masturbatory thrills."

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
{{{{{{{Gamaliel}}}}}}}

IMHO, don't let idiots drive you from your beliefs. If you need a vacation from Christianity or to walk away altogether, fine. But there are always going to be idiots somewhere.

YMMV.

Golden Key - I am pretty certain Gamaliel was being ironic/joking in his OP.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:

I think it’s time the Ship considered a new board – Babylon (for those who babble on and on… and on, about issues of minimal or no importance)

Good idea - but we'd have to be sent there, nobody likes to admit to babbling on ...

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
{{{{{{{Gamaliel}}}}}}}

IMHO, don't let idiots drive you from your beliefs. If you need a vacation from Christianity or to walk away altogether, fine. But there are always going to be idiots somewhere.

YMMV.
Golden Key - I am pretty certain Gamaliel was being ironic/joking in his OP.

And if you weren't being ironic, don't let them get you down, with their false modesty. They put the holes in holiness and do more for atheism than the National Secular Society and British Humanist Association together. If Satan has a fifth column it consists of bone-headed Christians, not Satanists, Pagans and atheists.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Gamaliel, you could become a liberal of course.

This way, in discussing with the fundies, you'll always Be Right™ [Biased]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And like my mate Gamaliel, I can't bear contradiction of any kind, and when it appears I throw the Ship's biggest tantrum.

Ya want to watch out where you're flinging that masonry, you might put a hole in your greenhouse. Or does your little hissy fit over having your views on the matter in question contradicted not count? [Roll Eyes]

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally opined by Sioni Sais
And if you weren't being ironic, don't let them get you down, with their false modesty. They put the holes in holiness and do more for atheism than the National Secular Society and British Humanist Association together. If Satan has a fifth column it consists of bone-headed Christians, not Satanists, Pagans and atheists.

Can I take it (in the context of this "discussion"), that you believe that someone who commits the heinous crime of daring to believe that his or her gift of tongues is actually "of God" (and who doesn't make any comment or judgment about anyone else's spirituality) thereby becomes worse than a Satanist, Pagan and atheist?

I don't need to try to insult you.

You have insulted yourself.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
Ya want to watch out where you're flinging that masonry, you might put a hole in your greenhouse. Or does your little hissy fit over having your views on the matter in question contradicted not count?

Yeah. You are, of course, absolutely right (although "I might be wrong").

I shouldn't try to defend myself against false accusations.

(Note to myself: Remember to submit unreservedly to the views of the most cantankerous member of the Ship. If not, you will be accused of hypocrisy. Always bear in mind that the Ship pretends to encourage freedom of speech, thought and conscience, but in reality "you can have any colour of thought you like, as long as it's totally subjective and sceptical and you don't mention the evil 'C' word: 'certainty' ".)

[brick wall]

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:
Originally opined by Sioni Sais
And if you weren't being ironic, don't let them get you down, with their false modesty. They put the holes in holiness and do more for atheism than the National Secular Society and British Humanist Association together. If Satan has a fifth column it consists of bone-headed Christians, not Satanists, Pagans and atheists.
Can I take it (in the context of this "discussion"), that you believe that someone who commits the heinous crime of daring to believe that his or her gift of tongues is actually "of God" (and who doesn't make any comment or judgment about anyone else's spirituality) thereby becomes worse than a Satanist, Pagan and atheist?

I don't need to try to insult you.

You have insulted yourself.

I think he's more referring to those who major in the minor details and make a BIG deal out of a little issue.

Or maybe those who write pages and pages trying to prove that they were 'right' and therefore soooo humble. [Roll Eyes]

Get over yourself.

Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Socratic-enigma:

I think it’s time the Ship considered a new board – Babylon (for those who babble on and on… and on, about issues of minimal or no importance)
Good idea - but we'd have to be sent there, nobody likes to admit to babbling on ...

They'd be in a Babylonian captivity.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
I think he's more referring to those who major in the minor details and make a BIG deal out of a little issue.

Exactly. Like this hell call.

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:
I think he's more referring to those who major in the minor details and make a BIG deal out of a little issue.
Exactly. Like this hell call.

But momma, they do it TOO!!! [Waterworks]

You started a thread on pride to prove that you were humble because you were RIGHT about a matter that isn't even of secondary importance in the Christian faith.

Seriously dude, get over yourself.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
{{{{{{{Gamaliel}}}}}}}

IMHO, don't let idiots drive you from your beliefs. If you need a vacation from Christianity or to walk away altogether, fine. But there are always going to be idiots somewhere.

YMMV.
Golden Key - I am pretty certain Gamaliel was being ironic/joking in his OP.

I hope so. He is one of the shipmates to whose contributions I turn when I want some help thinking a question through.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I shouldn't try to defend myself against false accusations.

If you can't face a simple questioning of your worldvew without seeing it as a false accusation against your character, then you're on the wrong bulletin board.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99
You started a thread on pride to prove that you were humble

Perhaps you would like to learn how to read properly.

Funny, but I thought that the thread I started was questioning whether "pride and humility" is related to "certainty and uncertainty". But apparently that seems to have been lost on you.

Do keep up.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
If you can't face a simple questioning of your worldvew without seeing it as a false accusation against your character, then you're on the wrong bulletin board.

Well clearly you have a different definition of "simple questioning" than I have.

I guess you're just made of sterner stuff and would never dream of feeling even the slightest bit upset if someone called you a totally arrogant bastard just for committing the crime of daring to believe something to be true (that did not involve looking down on anyone else, as it was something entirely personal).

So I cannot help but admire you for your obvious superiority.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

EtymologicalEvangelical - various people have tried to persuade you that you can say "I believe this to be true, but I could be wrong" without losing any of your faith/belief. For some reason you won't do it.

Which is fine.

Just say 'I won't do it' and leave the subject alone. It's the fact that you keep coming back to it (even opening new threads on the same thing) that's irking, and makes me feel thou protesteth too loud.

[and yes, Gamaliel is doing the same in the other direction - but at least he admits it!]

[Snore]

[ 06. June 2012, 10:33: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

Funny, but I thought that the thread I started was questioning whether "pride and humility" is related to "certainty and uncertainty". But apparently that seems to have been lost on you.

That may be why you said you started the thread, but reading the thread itself is like swimming in your self-'rightness' indignation.

ETA: and what boogie just said

[ 06. June 2012, 10:35: Message edited by: irish_lord99 ]

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:
Originally opined by Sioni Sais
And if you weren't being ironic, don't let them get you down, with their false modesty. They put the holes in holiness and do more for atheism than the National Secular Society and British Humanist Association together. If Satan has a fifth column it consists of bone-headed Christians, not Satanists, Pagans and atheists.
Can I take it (in the context of this "discussion"), that you believe that someone who commits the heinous crime of daring to believe that his or her gift of tongues is actually "of God" (and who doesn't make any comment or judgment about anyone else's spirituality) thereby becomes worse than a Satanist, Pagan and atheist?

No, you can't take any of that in the ways you express. You and your pals, through wilful misundertanding and misrepresentation of the scriptures, discourage others who aren't such slavish devotees of the views you hold. Get it into your thick skulls that doubts are reasonable, don't beat people up for having them, and if these doubts extend to some of the gifts spiritual then pray for them but please STFU about it. Thanks.

quote:

I don't need to try to insult you.

You have insulted yourself.

That's about as arrogant as one can get, and another indication of your ability to discourage.

You might be an evangelical, but you don't talk like an evangelist.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I guess you're just made of sterner stuff and would never dream of feeling even the slightest bit upset if someone called you a totally arrogant bastard just for committing the crime of daring to believe something to be true

If someone called me an arrogant bastard for refusing to even countenance the idea that my beliefs may not be true, they'd be right.

Arrogance is not believing something to be true, it's refusing to even adknowledge the possibility of it being false.

[ 06. June 2012, 10:56: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
EtymologicalEvangelical - various people have tried to persuade you that you can say "I believe this to be true, but I could be wrong" without losing any of your faith/belief. For some reason you won't do it.

Which is fine.

Just say 'I won't do it' and leave the subject alone. It's the fact that you keep coming back to it (even opening new threads on the same thing) that's irking, and makes me feel thou protesteth too loud.

[and yes, Gamaliel is doing the same in the other direction - but at least he admits it!]

Well, I did explain that I was prepared to "do" it (i.e. be completely open to any evidence that could prove me wrong).

Also I was prepared to leave the subject alone. That's why I pulled out of the "tongues" thread (and Gammy actually wanted me to continue the discussion there). Yes of course I opened a new thread, but that was because the bust-up that we were having on the "tongues" thread, which I was getting sick of, threw up an issue that I think is actually objectively very important (as it has come up in my debates with atheists elsewhere). I think it is regrettable that people who claim certainty about anything (even in the most non-arrogant way they can muster) are accused of being proud and that there is some virtue in total scepticism. (I hope to continue the discusson on the other thread and respond to your recent post there).

Furthermore, on another thread Gammy was going on about the same thing - almost anything I wrote elicited the accusation of arrogance. OK, I suppose I should have perhaps ignored him, but I thought that addressing the issue of "pride and certainty" properly in a serious thread might actually clear the air.

Obviously I was wrong.

And then we get this ridiculous hell thread, and I am completely bemused as to what I said that "made" Gamaliel consider becoming an atheist.

You're right. I've had enough of this nonsense. So to summarise all I have said: "I believe something personal to me is completely of God. If someone can show me coherent and convincing evidence that this is not the case, then I would be willing to consider it. End of." If this makes me "arrogant", then so be it. I'm arrogant. Big deal.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
"I believe something personal to me is completely of God. If someone can show me coherent and convincing evidence that this is not the case, then I would be willing to consider it. End of."

That's stupid. If evidence existed for or against it you wouldn't have to believe - you'd know.

The problem is that something for which no evidence can exist, and which is therefore merely a matter of belief, is being treated as if it has been conclusively proved. That's just barmy in my book.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

The problem is that something for which no evidence can exist, and which is therefore merely a matter of belief, is being treated as if it has been conclusively proved. That's just barmy in my book.

Exactly - except that I wouldn't use the word 'merely', our beliefs often inform our worldview which informs how we treat others.

EE calls himself 'Etymological' but seems to fall into many category errors when it comes to language. As I said here.

Not very etymological at all in my view.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

... And then we get this ridiculous hell thread, and I am completely bemused as to what I said that "made" Gamaliel consider becoming an atheist.

If you can't understand simple declarative sentences that is your problem alone. I can only conclude that you don't want to understand them.

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So to summarise all I have said: "I believe something personal to me is completely of God. If someone can show me coherent and convincing evidence that this is not the case, then I would be willing to consider it. End of." If this makes me "arrogant", then so be it. I'm arrogant. Big deal.

"Coherent and convincing" appear to be terms only your understanding and definition of which you are prepared to acknowledge. As an observer of this spat, I can confirm that this makes you arrogant. And closed-minded. And by my understanding and definition of the term, a twat.

You're welcome.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
... And then we get this ridiculous hell thread, and I am completely bemused as to what I said that "made" Gamaliel consider becoming an atheist.
If you can't understand simple declarative sentences that is your problem alone. I can only conclude that you don't want to understand them.

Please show me the sentences I wrote that "made" Gamaliel consider becoming an atheist.

You're right. I should want to understand them. So please show me what they are then.

[ 06. June 2012, 11:36: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by passer
"Coherent and convincing" appear to be terms only your understanding and definition of which you are prepared to acknowledge. As an observer of this spat, I can confirm that this makes you arrogant. And closed-minded. And by my understanding and definition of the term, a twat.

OK. I'll assume you're right then.

Please explain to me the nature of the evidence that is truly "coherent and convincing". And then let's see whether your argument makes sense.

After all, I wouldn't want to think you were bluffing.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Said

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
... And then we get this ridiculous hell thread, and I am completely bemused as to what I said that "made" Gamaliel consider becoming an atheist.
If you can't understand simple declarative sentences that is your problem alone. I can only conclude that you don't want to understand them.
Please show me the sentences I wrote that "made" Gamaliel consider becoming an atheist.

You're right. I should want to understand them. So please show me what they are then.

The problem isn't locating or identifying the words but your understanding of them. You've read them already, but you don't understand them and I doubt you want to.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

Sioni Sais -

Please show me what "my understanding" of them is then, that has justified Gamaliel's reaction. And don't present your assumptions or prejudices, but proper evidence. After all, we are all supposed to be "open to being wrong", so it's not a lot to ask for you to submit to evidence as much as anyone else.

I'll be waiting...

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And don't present your assumptions or prejudices, but proper evidence.

You really shouldn't hold other people to a higher standard than you do yourself.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
"I believe something personal to me is completely of God. If someone can show me coherent and convincing evidence that this is not the case, then I would be willing to consider it. End of."
That's stupid. If evidence existed for or against it you wouldn't have to believe - you'd know.

The problem is that something for which no evidence can exist, and which is therefore merely a matter of belief, is being treated as if it has been conclusively proved. That's just barmy in my book.

Oh, so I can believe it without having to say "I could be wrong"?!

Thanks for clearing that one up!

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
You really shouldn't hold other people to a higher standard than you do yourself.

Agreed.

So what evidence is it to which I refuse to submit?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Oh, so I can believe it without having to say "I could be wrong"?!

Yes, because the "I could be wrong" part is covered by the use of "believe" rather than "know".

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Sioni Sais -

Please show me what "my understanding" of them is then, that has justified Gamaliel's reaction. And don't present your assumptions or prejudices, but proper evidence. After all, we are all supposed to be "open to being wrong", so it's not a lot to ask for you to submit to evidence as much as anyone else.

I'll be waiting...

Proper evidence? Proper evidence?

It was your unwillingness to provide proper evidence and answer questions with anything other than statements of belief that led to the debate in Purg and eventually the OP on this thread. I'm blowed if I'll provide any proper evidence because you'll be quibbling about that rather than the substance of the argument which is your unconstructive and discouraging attitude to those who do not share your view of the extent and legitimacy of spiritual gifts. FWIW I hold that the gifts of tongues and the interpretation of tongues do exist but there's an awful lot of bollocks and a corresponding absence of discernment around too.

[ 06. June 2012, 12:13: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian
Yes, because the "I could be wrong" part is covered by the use of "believe" rather than "know".

Well, if I am supposed to say "I could be wrong", but it is impossible for anyone to show me that I could be wrong (as no evidence could exist to demonstrate this), then I really don't know what all the fuss is about.

So I'll just mouth the words "I could be wrong".

Happy now?

(Can't quite see how this non-issue has driven Gamaliel to atheism.)

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Oh, so I can believe it without having to say "I could be wrong"?!
Yes, because the "I could be wrong" part is covered by the use of "believe" rather than "know".

I'm not so sure he understands the difference between 'believe' and 'know.' He uses the first (in all humility, of course [Roll Eyes]

) as most would use the latter.

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:Happy now?[/QB]

I think most people are still waiting for you to admit you have a problem with pride.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais
It was your unwillingness to provide proper evidence and answer questions with anything other than statements of belief that led to the debate in Purg and eventually the OP on this thread.

Funny that, considering that I was the only one on the original 'tongues' thread who actually provided any linguistic evidence. But you seem to have missed that.

quote:
I'm blowed if I'll provide any proper evidence because you'll be quibbling about that rather than the substance of the argument which is your unconstructive and discouraging attitude to those who do not share your view of the extent and legitimacy of spiritual gifts.

So you provide no evidence at all to show that I had or have an "unconstructive and discouraging attitude", and yet claim the moral high ground. All I have ever said is express confidence in my own personal experience, without in any way passing judgement on anyone else's experience. If I have passed judgement on other people, then show me the evidence from what I have written. There's no "quibbling" involved. If that is what I have written THEN PRODUCE THE EVIDENCE. If you can't then you are just being malicious.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Well, if I am supposed to say "I could be wrong", but it is impossible for anyone to show me that I could be wrong (as no evidence could exist to demonstrate this), then I really don't know what all the fuss is about.

So I'll just mouth the words "I could be wrong".

Happy now?

No, because you're still not getting it. It's not about you mouthing words you don't believe, it's about you actually finding some humility from somewhere such that you actually have a realistic appreciation of the veracity of what you believe.

I mean, if the lack of hard evidence against your beliefs is important when considering their veracity, then is the lack of hard evidence for them not also important?

But hey, if you pretending to be humble is the best we can get then I guess it'll do.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I think most people are still waiting for you to admit you have a problem with pride.

I am still waiting for EE to comment on my point here.

[ 06. June 2012, 12:35: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99
I think most people are still waiting for you to admit you have a problem with pride.

You are, of course, right, as you always are - being perfect.

Yes, everyone, I admit that I have a problem with pride.

So I will try my best to be truly humble and to be thoroughly deceitful as you are trying so hard to urge me to be.

So here's my lie: "I really seriously believe that my gift of tongues could be dodgy."

There. Sorted.

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
If that is what I have written THEN PRODUCE THE EVIDENCE. If you can't then you are just being malicious.

From the 'Good environment for Spiritual Gifts thread':

quote:
Originally posted by MaliciousEvangelical:
What a rogue EE is for daring to believe in the grace of God, and to have the temerity to assert that God rather likes His own method of grace, and that He must get a tad upset when people reject it!!

God seemed rather upset with His people when they "did not serve Him with joy and gladness for the abundance of all things" (Deut. 28:47). But I guess He was only joking. After all, it is soooo "arrogant" to take the Bible seriously, isn't it?

Why can't we all be as humble as the servant who was given one talent, who said "I knew you to be a hard man..." (Matt. 25:24)? I mean, it all turned out really well for that "God-fearing" servant, didn't it?

From the "Holy Tradition Thread"

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
It is rather unfortunate that "mere laymen" have been burdened with an organ called a "brain" (well most of them anyway). I can't imagine what they do with this bit of kit. Clearly in some ecclesiastical circles the sacrament of lobotomy should be introduced as the new circumcision.

And of course we have the problem of "the Big Fib". Yes, I'm talking about Proverbs 4:7 - "In all your getting, get understanding". Being commanded to think for ourselves? Bit difficult post-lobotomy, innit? So the Bible was obviously joking. But then again... why bother with the Bible when we've got "Holy Tradition" (aka Clericalism's "Little Red Book").

Not to mention your repeated insistence in the "tounges" thread that your belief in YOUR understanding of God and in YOUR interpretation of scripture shows the strength of your faith.

quote:
Poor me for being so terribly arrogant - oh me of too much faith!!

The implication of course, is that anyone who doesn't share your understanding of God or your interpretation of scripture must be lacking faith.

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99
I think most people are still waiting for you to admit you have a problem with pride.
You are, of course, right, as you always are - being perfect.

I never claimed to be either.

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Yes, everyone, I admit that I have a problem with pride.

Good.

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So I will try my best to be truly humble and to be thoroughly deceitful as you are trying so hard to urge me to be.

I think most people are urging the first, not the latter. It is possible to hold a position in confidence and humility.

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So here's my lie: "I really seriously believe that my gift of tongues could be dodgy."

You still think this is about speaking in tongues?

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99

quote:
Originally posted by MaliciousEvangelical
What a rogue EE is for daring to believe in the grace of God, and to have the temerity to assert that God rather likes His own method of grace, and that He must get a tad upset when people reject it!!

God seemed rather upset with His people when they "did not serve Him with joy and gladness for the abundance of all things" (Deut. 28:47). But I guess He was only joking. After all, it is soooo "arrogant" to take the Bible seriously, isn't it?

Why can't we all be as humble as the servant who was given one talent, who said "I knew you to be a hard man..." (Matt. 25:24)? I mean, it all turned out really well for that "God-fearing" servant, didn't it?

And your point is?

So "MaliciousEvangelical" affirms that God wants to bless people.

Yep, I agree with "MaliciousEvangelical" on that one. What a truly nasty thing to say! God wants to bless people. How awful.

And then the wicked man pipes up again:

quote:
It is rather unfortunate that "mere laymen" have been burdened with an organ called a "brain" (well most of them anyway). I can't imagine what they do with this bit of kit. Clearly in some ecclesiastical circles the sacrament of lobotomy should be introduced as the new circumcision.

And of course we have the problem of "the Big Fib". Yes, I'm talking about Proverbs 4:7 - "In all your getting, get understanding". Being commanded to think for ourselves? Bit difficult post-lobotomy, innit? So the Bible was obviously joking. But then again... why bother with the Bible when we've got "Holy Tradition" (aka Clericalism's "Little Red Book").

Appalling. Encouraging people to think for themselves! How arrogant.

I am shocked and sickened by this. I really am.

quote:

quote:
Poor me for being so terribly arrogant - oh me of too much faith!!
The implication of course, is that anyone who doesn't share your understanding of God or your interpretation of scripture must be lacking faith.

Well done for taking this out of context. But I suppose you don't understand sarcasm. Or do you have such a high regard for me that you think I ought to be above the normal human emotions of frustration when confronted with stupid accusations? Or perhaps that is where a higher being such as yourself dwells, and you can't understand us mere humans?

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99
It is possible to hold a position in confidence and humility.

Exactly. So what are we arguing about?

quote:
You still think this is about speaking in tongues?

Oooh. Soooo sorry for not being able to keep up with your fertile imagination.

By the way...

Would you be interested in responding to my little questionnaire?

It's easy, because it's "multiple choice".

Here are the possible answers:

1. proud.

2. humble.

Now here's the question:

irish_lord99 is .......?

Now I hope you will be willing to fill this in. No obligation, of course. Although a no-show or spoiled ballot might possibly convey some pertinent information to me.

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

Now here's the question:

irish_lord99 is .......?

Proud, to be sure. I'm even worse in real life.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

*twitch, twitch*

EtymologicalEvangelical's posts disturb me.

They indent too far to the right.

It's just not right.

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And your point is?

My point is, you're passing judgement. (And remember, you asked us to show you where you did that.)

Whether you're right or wrong in the quoted text is irreverent, it's your attitude that's the issue.

Now go ahead, turn this around and make this about anyone other than you again. [Disappointed]

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So you provide no evidence at all to show that I had or have an "unconstructive and discouraging attitude"

I think the evidence is that lots of people on this thread are expressing irritation.

FWIW, I don't personally have a problem with your posts, but I've not been involved on the thread that sparked this call. However, this conversation sounds to me something like this:

Sensitive Soul: Stop tapping your feet!
Ricardus: Why?
Sensitive Soul: Because it's annoying!
Ricardus: Why is it annoying?
Sensitive Soul: ...
Ricardus: So you can't prove it's annoying! You're just being malicious! etc

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
*twitch, twitch*

EtymologicalEvangelical's posts disturb me.

They indent too far to the right.

It's just not right.

You are further to the right than EtymologicalEvangelical. [Razz]

[ 06. June 2012, 14:28: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

It sounds to me like all this is about mind-control. A bunch of people are trying to pass off their subjective impressions as objectively valid ideas. So I have an annoying "attitude"? OK, so I am not dissimilar to at least 80% of people on the Ship (well, Purg and Hell anyway).

Phew.

Is that really what this has all been about?

Bloody hell. Talk about a storm in a teacup!!

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

All in all it's just another brick in the wall.

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
A bunch of people are trying to pass off their subjective impressions as objectively valid ideas.

Yes, and you are one of them. What annoys people is that you act as if you don't even realise it.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
A bunch of people are trying to pass off their subjective impressions as objectively valid ideas.
Yes, and you are one of them. What annoys people is that you act as if you don't even realise it.

Exactly.

But is it an act?

[Paranoid]

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

If we're introducing songs into this, this one has been running through my mind for the last few days, whenever I read the relevant threads [Two face]

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.

Kinda reminds me of Orwell's 1984, in which O'Brien (Winston Smith's torturer) explained:

quote:
Did I not tell you just now that we are different from the persecutors of the past? We are not content with negative obedience, nor even with the most abject submission. When finally you surrender to us, it must be of your own free will. We do not destroy the heretic because he resists us: so long as he resists us we never destroy him. We convert him, we capture his inner mind, we reshape him. We burn all evil and all illusion out of him; we bring him over to our side, not in appearance, but genuinely, heart and soul. We make him one of ourselves before we kill him. It is intolerable to us that an erroneous thought should exist anywhere in the world, however secret and powerless it may be.

It seems that even the liberal subjectivists have got in on the act.

How dare little EE have a viewpoint that is personal and irrelevant to anyone else (therefore "powerless") that does not conform to the requirements of the Postmodern Inquisition!

"If daring 'little laddy' heretic EE persists in his impudence, then we (Gammy et al) hound him with vicious accusations until we break his will. It is truly intolerable that EE should have confidence in his own personal gift of tongues (which he says has nothing to do with anyone else) if he has not obtained the requisite authorisation from his religious 'betters'."

Yep, this brick's an awkward bugger. He just won't stay in line...

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Just wondering EE:

Do you do martyrdom much?

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
"... It is truly intolerable that EE should have confidence in his own personal gift of tongues (which he says has nothing to do with anyone else) if he has not obtained the requisite authorisation from his religious 'betters'."

I hope it encourages you to know that I don't give a hoot in hell about your gift of tongues. [Big Grin]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

How dare little EE have a viewpoint that is personal and irrelevant to anyone else ...

For personal and irrelevant to anyone else, you talk an awful lot about it.

(The man doth too much, I reckon)

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

Boogie -

Well it's really that important that it has driven Gamaliel to atheism!

I was asked a simple question to which I gave a straightforward answer, and ever since I have been made to feel like the devil's henchman.

Perhaps you ought to ask Gammy why he "hath protested too much".

Oh wait... you can't! He's done a bunk...

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Just wondering EE:

Do you do martyrdom much?

No, but I imagine he's a dab hand on how much Christians are persecuted in his country.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

I still don't understand what this thread is about......

Gamaliel is upset because EE thinks his speaking in tongues is real?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Just wondering EE:

Do you do martyrdom much?

I have vague memories of a thread in Purg about the Big Bang which suggests the answer is yes.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Perhaps you ought to ask Gammy why he "hath protested too much".

Oh wait... you can't! He's done a bunk...

Whatever the reason for that, the fact that it doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest speaks volumes.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Just wondering EE:

Do you do martyrdom much?
I have vague memories of a thread in Purg about the Big Bang which suggests the answer is yes.

Oh look. The old martyrdom idea has surfaced. It's on par with Godwin's Law these days.

Anyone sticks up for themselves and is given shit for it is immediately dubbed a martyr.

[Roll Eyes]

FFS people. Get over yourselves. Invent some new memes. That one is getting really old.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I still don't understand what this thread is about......

Gamaliel is upset because EE thinks his speaking in tongues is real?

It seems so. But mostly it is about who can bully who into theological submission about issues that won't really be determined until Judgment Day.

I'm sort of in Gammy's camp in that I need to keep in mind the whole "through a glass darkly" thing. But I don't understand his wailing and kicking his little legs when EE doesn't believe the same thing. What the hell does it matter what EE thinks? Even if his opinions strike Gam as arrogant. So what? I repeat, it doesn't have anything to do with anybody else unless you make it so. If you are going to be mad at people who think differently than yourself, you'd better enjoy being in a constant pet.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Just wondering EE:

Do you do martyrdom much?
I have vague memories of a thread in Purg about the Big Bang which suggests the answer is yes.
Oh look. The old martyrdom idea has surfaced. It's on par with Godwin's Law these days.

Anyone sticks up for themselves and is given shit for it is immediately dubbed a martyr.

FFS people. Get over yourselves. Invent some new memes. That one is getting really old.

No, it's more about someone sticking up for themselves by expressing their complete incomprehension at how anyone can think differently from them.

Which is followed by the stage of "oh well, if you think differently it must be because you're simply not understanding what I'm saying".

Which is then followed by the martyr-like stage of "oh, it is so tragic that I'm casting my pearls before swine".

The giving of shit is not usually because of sticking up for an opinion. The giving of shit is usually because of the complete inability to recognise anyone else might understand your opinion but still disagree with it anyway.

[ 07. June 2012, 05:41: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
But I don't understand his wailing and kicking his little legs when EE doesn't believe the same thing. What the hell does it matter what EE thinks? Even if his opinions strike Gam as arrogant. So what? I repeat, it doesn't have anything to do with anybody else unless you make it so. If you are going to be mad at people who think differently than yourself, you'd better enjoy being in a constant pet.

Well jeez, if everybody thought like that we wouldn't even need this board, would we?

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The giving of shit is not usually because of sticking up for an opinion. The giving of shit is usually because of the complete inability to recognise anyone else might understand your opinion but still disagree with it anyway.

Orfeo, I understand why that would be frustrating, but that's not how I've interpreted EE's posts. I'm more with LydaRose. I don't see what EE's done that is so much worse than what endless shipmates do all the time. I think he's probably got frustrated and taken everything too much to heart and got a bit whiny, but I think it's quite easy to do that when tempers flare in Hell. I think Gam was equally to blame - I think he's done the right thing in cooling off for a bit (and EE, I don't think he's become an atheist - that comment was probably a slightly rubbish attempt at humour).

The whole tongues thing was such a minor disagreement in the first place. EE - I'd just recommend that you do what Gam's done and chill out for a bit - the more you try to defend yourself, the more shrill you'll sound.

Oh, and I love how Gam does Hell - great prats!!! Reminds me of a little kid getting really angry and saying "you... you... poopoo head!"

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
It seems so. But mostly it is about who can bully who into theological submission about issues that won't really be determined until Judgment Day.

Gamaliel is a recovering charismatic, evangelical, you flippin name it weirdo.

Must gall him if EE is sticking by his guns and doesn't like Gamaliel's "third way". Must make him wonder if he got it wrong and was just inadequate at receiving "the truth".

Grow up Gamaliel. Stick by your guns.

Or go back to the weird shit.

Maybe that's what you really want to do?

Must be more fun.

The truth is often harder to bear huh?

(oh man....I'm so talking out of my ass - but hey, it's fun)

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
But I don't understand his wailing and kicking his little legs when EE doesn't believe the same thing. What the hell does it matter what EE thinks? Even if his opinions strike Gam as arrogant. So what? I repeat, it doesn't have anything to do with anybody else unless you make it so. If you are going to be mad at people who think differently than yourself, you'd better enjoy being in a constant pet.
Well jeez, if everybody thought like that we wouldn't even need this board, would we?

True enough.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

[Big Grin]

Looks like you're having fun.

I'm back after working in London for a few days. Glad to see you're all still here.

No, I've not apostasised. No, I've not joined the National Secular Society (although some of you guys make me feel like doing so at times ... [Biased]

)

Neither have I gone on a unrestrained binge of utter debauchery and depravity.

And it's good to see you all again.

Fuck off Evensong.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

I know some people in NSS; they're enough to drive you to religion.

Nice codicil to your post, though [Big Grin]

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well jeez, if everybody thought like that we wouldn't even need this board, would we?

Nah, we would still need to try and contain you a little. Bit like a kids play pen really. [Big Grin]

Posted by Enigma (# 16158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Looks like you're having fun.

I'm back after working in London for a few days. Glad to see you're all still here.

No, I've not apostasised. No, I've not joined the National Secular Society (although some of you guys make me feel like doing so at times ... )

Neither have I gone on a unrestrained binge of utter debauchery and depravity.

And it's good to see you all again.

Fuck off Evensong.

Brilliant - what power you have over your naive people!
In the end faith/belief is belief/faith is how I understand it and there most of us meet. But not all obviously.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Fuck off Evensong.

Ooooooh I think he likes me. [Axe murder]

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Fuck off Evensong.
Ooooooh I think he likes me.

Diagnosis: Subject is delusional. No cure.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Fuck off Evensong.
Ooooooh I think he likes me.

I think you've inspired Gamaliel to his most Hellish utterance ever.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

You might have missed it, Orfeo, but I have extended that particular pleasantry towards Evensong before.

As it happens, I do like Evensong. In the same way as I think that knobbly warthogs, slugs and praying manti are cute despite themselves ...

@Snags - yes, extreme secularists do make me want to run towards religion too. It cuts both ways.

But that's getting Purgatorial once more ...

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

As it happens, I do like Evensong. In the same way as I think that knobbly warthogs, slugs and praying manti are cute despite themselves ...

Oh, that could have come out of my mouth. Thanks, Gamaliel. [Big Grin]

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