Thread: Parents and God Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
It might just be pop psychology unsupported by any research, but there seems to be a widespread hunch that our childhood relationship with our father, in particular, has a lot to do with our perceptions of God.

(I am not talking here about Feuerbach’s and Freud’s theories of the origins of religion).

My father was very permissive, a good man, and my siblings and I never doubted his love for us, but he was also an alcoholic, which produced an enormous amount of insecurity and unpredictability in the family.

The suspicion of God against which I constantly struggle, despite all my orthodox answers for it is, I suspect, in part at least a reaction to that childhood uncertainty.

My wife, by contrast, grew up in a Brethren family which was very tight and restrictive (no radio, television or movies, and not even permitted to attend school socials) but also very stable and secure, and as the eldest child and only daughter she had a very close relationship with her father.

Her relationship with God, coincidentally or not, is instinctively trusting and optimistic (“and all shall be well, and all shall be well…..”) despite all the problems which her intelligence, shrewdness, pastoral experience and theological training throw up.

How, if at all, do you think that your relationship with your parents has determined your relationship with God?
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Not entirely sure - and it would probably change as life went on. My father was largely absent and very distant, largely devoid of outward displays of emotion - basically think Prince Phil without the smut. My God is somewhat different.

On the other hand any maternalization of Godspeak takes me into nightmare territory. My mother was (is, but she's harmless-ish now) volatile, cantankerous, tempestuous, manipulative and demeaning (though apart from that she's alright ).

Now what there might be in my spirituality is the search for a compensation for the dysfunctionalities they represented.

Meanwhile I represent plenty of dysfunctionalities myself. My kids just don't bother with God.
 

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Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :
 
Yes, massively. My father was completely absent from my life and my stepfather was violent. My mother was an unstable alcoholic, so the mother God thing really doesn't help either (I get incredibly angry when people waffle on about how mother God imagery is inherently 'nurturing' or whatever). My husband on the other hand had loving, albeit crazy (very very starchy calvinist) parents and is very trusting and accepting of God's love, despite having been raised with a theology which could be considered quite loveless and authoritarian.
 

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Posted by PerkyEars (# 9577) on :
 
Hmm. Absent father. Stepfather who was basically loving but mentally ill and absent a lot of the time. Manipulative, narccissitc, ambivalent mother. Lots of upheavals - housemoves, divorce, changes of church.

It took a religious experience for me to believe in a loving, personal God. I still struggle with lack of trust. I struggle with beliving that God wants the best for me (as opposed to me being a pawn in his plan for the greater good, who might well be tossed aside at any time). I struggle with assurance of my salvation, and often imagine I will be one of those who Jesus says he didn't know. Realising that these distortions are rooted my relationship with my mother, and my experiences of family life has been a big help to me.

Getting rid of this kind of stuff from our spiritual lives is ongoing work. The other day I realised I believed that God didn't want to hear how I was feeling, and would punish and shame me if that's what I prayed about! Then I remembered the Psalms.

M Scott Peck writes that people who think they've moved away from these distortions by getting rid of 'God' are in error - that everyone has a 'worldview' that grows out of their family life, whether they believe in God or not.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I had a loving father, who I couldn't fault in any way. When he died four years ago (suddenly and at a good age - 86) I was devastated.

Yes, my views of God mirror my views of my earthly father pretty closely. And it's since Dad died that I have become confused and uncertain about God.

So I conform to your theory nicely.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
I've often wondered about this too, as so many people seem to have problems.

My parents were ordinary working class Labour-voting Londoners, not churchgoers, who shared domestic jobs and childcare. My dad worked in a silversmiths and mum was an office cleaner. When she went out to work early mornings and evenings dad would do the cooking and cleaning. He wasn't well educated (he left school aged 12), he was a gentle, kindly man and I loved him greatly. My mum by contrast was an anxious, garrulous woman, who could quarrel with people very quickly.

I can easily relate to God as Father, and have never felt unloved by God, as some people have experienced. I don't feel judged by him either (although of course I judge myself constantly!). I feel more ambivalent about the Mother God thing because of my own mum, but even so can feel that Jesus's 'motherliness' is worth exploring - especially when reading some of St Anselm's prayers: '..you are gentle with us as a mother with her children..your warmth gives life to the dead, your touch makes sinners righteous..'

There were no severe problems like alcoholism etc with my parents, and I do have lasting memories of a kindly father who was patient and loving, who would, eg, take me to the park and play for hours, and who put up with a lot of nagging from my mother...
 

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Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
Well, I had a lot of trouble with my father because I was self-absorbed and narcissistic growing up. I didn't have a lot of conflict with God, but growing in the faith certainly required slaying a lot of the dragons within my soul. So I was the same flawed creature marring both relationships. But I don't think that's what the OP had in mind...

--Tom Clune
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
My dad came from a dysfunctional family -- all God-fearing German farm folk on the outside, physical and emotional abuse on the inside. I think my paternal grandfather was crazy as a loon, frankly. So my father had those demons roiling around inside him, and he seemed to be constantly torn between not making his parents' mistakes and replicating them with me.

For instance, he never hit my mother, to my knowledge, and never physically abused me...but he had a violent, hair-trigger temper that was set off seemingly at random, so that every day when I got home from school I never knew if I'd be dealing with Good Dad or Bad Dad. (Interestingly, when DP, whose father was a violent alcoholic, and I compare family notes, our fathers had many of the same traits, although in my dad's case there was no substance abuse involved and he never took his anger to a physical level.)

He also lurched crazily between being supportive of me and having high expectations for me academically and otherwise and setting up barriers to keep me from advancing in my education. (I finally went to college, and mostly on his dime, too, after much Sturm und Drang.)

My mother was a very passive, beaten-down personality who had given up a good job in the city to marry Dad and help finance his purchasing the family farm. She never felt accepted by his family, and resented my father's bullying as well as HIS resentment of her education and her physical limitations. (She was not strong physically, had problems getting pregnant and wasn't able to work outside with the same energy and strength as other farm women in the neighborhood.) She spent a lot of her time weeping while my father was at work; or (inappropriately, IMHO) complaining to me, even at a young age, about my father and the in-laws.

How did this drama affect my feelings about God? I never had a very formed attitude about God being perpetually angry and ready to "smite" me, which I think was a function both of Lutheran theology at its best and some wishful thinking on my part that God's fatherhood made up for the deficiencies in my own family experience. I also thought of Jesus as the kindly older brother I never had; a champion. I remember going with my parents as a very young child to help clean the church building -- back in the say families took on this responsibility on a rotational basis -- and I felt very happy and at home there in God's house.

At the same time I was very resentful of my mother's anxious pressuring of me to read my children's Bible, to say nightly prayers, etc. She didn't mean to, but the way in which she framed these things always made me feel "bad" and in need of fixing. At the same time she criticized our church and the people in it all the time -- her family was Lutheran from home but never went to church; she was confirmed as an adult before she got married; when she was younger her parents had sent her down to the local Baptist church and youth group because it was the closer church in the neighborhood; she was either confused by or simply not on board with a lot of Lutheran theology and practice, and also frustrated with pastors' routine dismissal of her questions. I think that unhappiness also translated into my odd negative response to things like family Bible reading or prayers.

Thinking back, a significant vein of sadness ran through both parents; sadness expressed in very different ways, but sadness nonetheless. And maybe I internalized that to some extent, feeling that I was a contributor to that in some way.

I went through an intensely religious phase as a young teen; I think again because I felt that on some level what I experienced as God's "parenting" made up for emotionally messy and sometimes clueless human parenting.
 

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Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
My father was very permissive, a good man, and my siblings and I never doubted his love for us, but he was also an alcoholic, which produced an enormous amount of insecurity and unpredictability in the family.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zappa:
Now what there might be in my spirituality is the search for a compensation for the dysfunctionalities they represented.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It might just be pop psychology unsupported by any research, but there seems to be a widespread hunch that our childhood relationship with our father, in particular, has a lot to do with our perceptions of God.

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How, if at all, do you think that your relationship with your parents has determined your relationship with God?

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Hosea 13:8
I will encounter them like a bear robbed of her cubs, And I will tear open their chests; There I will also devour them like a lioness, As a wild beast would tear them.

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Isaiah 66:13
As one whom his mother comforts,
so I will comfort you; you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

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Originally posted by no_prophet:
It would take going back to university courses in classics and philosophical foundations to recall the detail, but our images of God as male are at least in in part on Sumerian metaphors (Abram came from there and we can anticipate continuous contact and cross-fertilization of such ideas in the time after), such as God being the male source of the Tigris and Euphrates, planting fertility into the female land. The image is profane in its specifics: ejaculating...

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Huh? I was taught from real early God is neither male nor female, the "he" is just the English language convention when the female isn't specifically and solely correct. If Sumarians and God ejaculating have anything to do with a god, the Protestant Episcopal church of the upper mid-West in the 1950s had long rejected that influence!
 

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Posted by chive (# 208) on :
 
My experiences of both my parents was often extreme violence. And after every beating you had to kneel down and pray for forgiveness. And I did, I prayed so hard that whatever sin I had committed would be taken away and my parents would love me again. Which never worked as they often said they never loved us. At one point when I was very young my dad got a job with the church and I began to get confused and think it was God that was beating me. (Kids do get things muddled up).

It's taken decades to find some thing of God to hang on to who isn't capricious, violent and terrifying and that has come through finding friends, and especially a friend who is a priest who have taught me about what unconditional love really is. And experiencing the conditional love I feel for my nephew and niece.

Being a new RC the concept of the Saints has become of huge importance to me as a less terrifyig approach to life.
 

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Posted by chive (# 208) on :
 
Sorry that should read - the unconditional love I feel for my nephew and niece.
 

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Posted by savedbyhim01 (# 17035) on :
 
My parents taught me the things of God regularly. They were good role models and stable influences. I never considered before that I view God as I view my dad, but their teaching definitely influenced my view of God.
 

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Posted by poileplume (# 16438) on :
 
My wife has prefect parents and highly religious. BUT she is the only one of her eight siblings who is religious!

In case you are interested, my mother was an amusingly incompetent wife, housewife and mother. Unfortunately my father never quite got the joke.
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
Your experience makes me feel that I have no right to complain of anything, chive.

Wishing you every blessing on your journey.

As Larkin said, "They fuck you up, your mum and dad. / They may not mean to, but they do".

The stories of fathers just in this thread are another reminder of how pastorally sensitive we have to be when presenting God as Father.

We used to know a woman who had been abused by her clergyman father, and therefore related to God as Holy Spirit (who seemed asexual) because she could not cope with the male gender specificity of Father or Son.

With Mothers' Day coming up, it is important to remember that there are abusive mothers, too, and some of their victims can be in our congregations.

(Although a digression from the topic, it is also worth remembering on Mothers' Day in churches, that there are more females than males in the Christian faith, and that therefore there are going to be some grieving would-be and probably-never-going-to-be mothers not coping well with our schmaltzy celebrations of motherhood).
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

With Mothers' Day coming up, it is important to remember that there are abusive mothers, too, and some of their victims can be in our congregations.

(Although a digression from the topic, it is also worth remembering on Mothers' Day in churches, that there are more females than males in the Christian faith, and that therefore there are going to be some grieving would-be and probably-never-going-to-be mothers not coping well with our schmaltzy celebrations of motherhood).

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quote:

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Originally posted by tclune:
Well, I had a lot of trouble with my father because I was self-absorbed and narcissistic growing up

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quote:

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Originally posted by chive:
My experiences of both my parents was often extreme violence. And after every beating you had to kneel down and pray for forgiveness. And I did, I prayed so hard that whatever sin I had committed would be taken away and my parents would love me again. Which never worked as they often said they never loved us. At one point when I was very young my dad got a job with the church and I began to get confused and think it was God that was beating me. (Kids do get things muddled up).

It's taken decades to find some thing of God to hang on to who isn't capricious, violent and terrifying and that has come through finding friends, and especially a friend who is a priest who have taught me about what unconditional love really is. And experiencing the conditional love I feel for my nephew and niece.

Being a new RC the concept of the Saints has become of huge importance to me as a less terrifyig approach to life.

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Dear God, how awful for you! And here I was thinking that my alcoholic and depressed parents were cruel to my sisters and I! No, compared to your parents, mine were angels. I'm so sorry that you experienced such nastiness at so early an age.
 

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Posted by Paddy O'Furniture (# 12953) on :
 
My mother was a strict Catholic and my father was a non-practicing Protestant but they both drank like fish, smoked like chimneys and had severe depression and other problems. My memories of my dad are not generally good. He was drunk a LOT and when he drank he yelled stuff that didn't make any sense. He once told one of my sisters,"Stop making that noise! You're driving me crazy! You weren't supposed to be born, anyway!". What a lovely thing to say to a young child. My mother was my idol even though she was drunk a lot too. But she could be so sweet and tender and I just wanted to make her happy, thinking that if she was happy she wouldn't drink.

I never had the notion that God was out to get me, even though the nuns were always telling us that we, personally had driven the spikes into Jesus' hands and feet--(this was told to six and seven year old children!). I always felt that God was nearby and I could talk to Him about anything.

When I came out of the closet at seventeen, I wasn't sure what I thought of God, believing the lie about homosexuality being a sin. For years I turned my back on a God that I felt was a insecure bully and a MALE, to boot!

Now I feel God as both a male and a female presence and Jesus as an older brother. God is sometimes a Mother but, dare I voice this and open myself for ridicule, also a Lover. THE Lover of my soul. And as my Lover, She is always a She.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I've never had a problem with God, but have a huge problem with Jesus (not the man, not the Christ, but the risen, ascended, yet oh so close, pal Jesus that the Evangelicals worship). Don't think that's anything to do with my parents though, but not quite sure what it's to do with. Perhaps one day I'll puzzle it out.

God is an all-round good sort of guy, who understands. What you'd wish an ideal parent to be, perhaps? And maybe the Jesus that I don't get on with doesn't actually exist. That might explain why I don't get on with him.
 

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Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :
 
Research might be interesting. From replies so far it seems a bit like cold reading - only works if you discount all the misses.

I had an excellent relationship with my "anglican minister" father. Based on this sample of one it's possible to argue that atheism is due to not needing to have a comforting, imaginary surrogate dad, therefore if you want your children to grow up needing a god or gods treat them badly.

Actually......???
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
Another factor which I forgot to mention in the OP is that my parents were quite physically demonstrative with each other and with we kids.

My wife, on the other hand, says that she never ever saw her parents display any overt affection in front of her or her siblings, though they treated each other and their kids with consideration and courtesy.

One might have expected that difference to have produced a warmer attitude toward God in me than in my wife, but that's not how it worked out.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Would you call God physically demonstrative though?
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
Well, he did invent sex...
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
Well, he did invent sex...
 

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Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
I never really thought of it before but I think there is a connection between my relationship with my father and my relationship with God. huh.

my father was always away - left when I was little and I only saw him every few years. He's a good man, despite not being present. but he's very loving and giving, loves to share his interests, and he's gregarious as hell. Very demonstrative with affection when the rare opportunity arrises. generally, kind of a shitty husband and a totally absent father; but, while he's way over there, he's pretty cool. He communicates in letters and writing books and doing radio shows and being this big impressive semi-celebrity; but what he communicates is good stuff.

which is a lot how I view God - does good and says useful things and professes love and is probably even genuinely proud of me, but isn't exactly hands-on in my day to day, mundane life.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
My siblings and I never had cause to doubt the deep love and affection our parents had for each other and for us. Although I knew that some children had unloving homes, if such things were around us, we certainly nevre saw, as my parents were in fact over-protective. Years later, an aunt said that it was like visiting a moated castle when visiting our house. From reading some of the above painful stories, I realise we were shielded from things that were not 'right'. My father had had a difficult childhood and my mother had seen a younger sister always the favourite and they wanted to protect us from that. I was born in 1936 so much of my childhood was war time. I used to have discussions with my father about God's place in the war, but that always led to God must know what He's doing. (there was always a capital H.)We said our prayers - God bless family, thanks for ...' but that was an unquestioned part of the daily routine. We were, if I remember correctly, allowed to miss this ritual if we wer ill!

The physical and mental abuse in my life was from the man I married, and I quickly realised the impotence of God, but still believed that He was there somewhere. Never having had a relationship with this god, my belief just faded away and I've been an atheist for a long time now.

I think I can appreciate why people's belief, prayers, etc have provided the support that those with difficult and uncaring parents needed. When I needed it, I realised immediately it wasn't there and knew that I had to work things out for myself. to my mind, all the working through by those who have had the thought of god to help them has, in fact, been done by their own inner strength, thoughts and intelligence. They have attributed the strength they had to God instead of to themselves.

Anyway, I would just like to say how much my deep respect goes to those who have worked their way through things.
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 

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Originally posted by comet:
which is a lot how I view God - does good and says useful things and professes love and is probably even genuinely proud of me, but isn't exactly hands-on in my day to day, mundane life.

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Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

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Originally posted by comet:
which is a lot how I view God - does good and says useful things and professes love and is probably even genuinely proud of me, but isn't exactly hands-on in my day to day, mundane life.

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You've made me realise that's how I see God as well...

Although in my case that's nothing like my earthly father.

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Originally posted by Chorister:
This thread is very interesting, because I remember - having observed many different types of churches - saying that many people's views of God seemed to be awfully similar to the sort of Vicar they had.

Perhaps there is more to people calling their Vicar 'Father' than meets the eye....

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My 'Vicar' is a girl.


 

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Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :
 

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:
This thread is very interesting, because I remember - having observed many different types of churches - saying that many people's views of God seemed to be awfully similar to the sort of Vicar they had.

Perhaps there is more to people calling their Vicar 'Father' than meets the eye....

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My 'Vicar' is a girl.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It might just be pop psychology unsupported by any research, but there seems to be a widespread hunch that our childhood relationship with our father, in particular, has a lot to do with our perceptions of God.

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