Ship of Fools: Wycliffe Hall Revisited

Thread: Wycliffe Hall Revisited Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by leftfieldlover (# 13467) on :

Any one else heard the latest news about Dr R T?

[ 25. May 2012, 08:59: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Sorry, thought this was about the Morning Star of the Reformation [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

Reading between the lines, I guess you mean Revd Dr. Richard Turnbull and this news.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

There is a thread in Limbo which gives exhaustive (and exhausting) background information.

Moo

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

I would be very intrigued to know the story behind that departure! Maybe there isn't a market for a second Oak Hill after all? Also as I understand it the university's long term aim is to turn the permanent private halls into colleges or, if necessary, cut them loose, as their ambiguous status is coming under scrutiny. I can't imagine that Wycliffe could manage to be both a 'sound' con evo institution and an aspiring Oxford college, even if they had the dosh to achieve college status.

Posted by Ultracrepidarian (# 9679) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Reading between the lines, I guess you mean Revd Dr. Richard Turnbull and this news.

[sarcasm]
Ha! That article seems to be a singularly dispassionate piece of journalism.
[/sarcasm]

I don't have any insight into the internal machinations of Wycliffe Hall, but I do hope that the new principal does something to improve what happens when students/ordinands from Wycliffe go and visit nearby parishes. With one exception (which was merely ordinary), the preaching that we've had at Evensong from Wycliffe visitors has been dire, and the Wycliffites don't hang around after the service or engage with the 'locals'.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

@Ultracrepidarian - it was the only reference I could find to make any kind of sense from the first post. I'd be happy to hear that there are other news options.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

PS It probably isn't very Christian of me to have 'Ding dong the witch is dead' running through my head...

Posted by Ultracrepidarian (# 9679) on :

thelongranger - Don't worry. I didn't think that you necessarily agreed with the opinions in the article, I was just amused by how definite they were!

I don't really know what's been going on, but a glance at the first page of the 2007 thread suggests that Turnbull was (at least to those outside Wycliffe) a divisive figure.

[ 22. May 2012, 14:34: Message edited by: Ultracrepidarian ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Reading between the lines, I guess you mean Revd Dr. Richard Turnbull and this news.

News? from the VirtueOnline website? What next? Fox? Pravda?

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

Without re-reading the entire 47+ pages of that thread again (it was interesting at the time, but still...) I seem to recall that he was a divisive figure even among the alumni of Wycliffe Hall.

I think Nightlamp was a graduate of the Hall, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I have misremembered. Custard was a student at the Hall during the time that thread was generated.

Like others, I'd be interested in knowing why. It seems as though it would have been handled a little more smoothly if it had been a health issue.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Reading between the lines, I guess you mean Revd Dr. Richard Turnbull and this news.

I find that a fascinating website. Is it possible it might just ever so slightly biased in its presentation of news. In
this story I found the following statement:

quote:
The reality is that it is almost certainly too late to save the Church of England. It is firmly held captive by its addiction to the power which corrupts absolutely - the ecclesiastical power which so routinely and predictably corrupts newly ordained bishops on the day of their consecration. It finds that power in its nexus with the State, which has become attenuated almost to breaking point in the course of two centuries of disentangling the medieval church from the parliamentary and social reforms of the modern era: but the Church, and especially its leadership, clings to the fantasy that it is still, somehow, the Church of England. In order to hold on to that delusion, they continue to prostitute the Church at the feet of the rampantly immoral secularism of the present day, in which sex and money are the only currencies.

While I have no love for the Church hierarchy, I'm not sure I recognise the institution described here.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

Ah - in the time it took me to write my last several of you have made the same point more succinctly.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sorry, thought this was about the Morning Star of the Reformation

I was hoping that the thread was in the wrong place and we were talking about the TV series staring Jack Shepherd ...

I wish everyone involved all the best as they deal with the fallout from this. (Is the best I can do under the circumstances. [Biased]

).

Tubbs

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

I was indeed a student at Wycliffe for 3 years under Richard. There are several shipmates who were there while he was Principal.

Richard is a really nice guy and I got on well with him most of the time. He was an effective minister when he led a small to medium sized church. He's good as a preacher (and I've heard he's good as a pastor too). He's very good at cutting through red tape, but he's not so good at managing people, and so even though I mostly agree with him on theology, I think he's probably done the right thing in resigning. Good bloke, wrong job.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

I'm inclined to hold fire on this. Sudden departures can be for all sorts of reasons, and particularly if personal circumstances are involved.

I was one of a number of Shipmates who got very cross about the way the Elaine Storkey affair was handled. However, my wife and I have a good friend who lives in Oxford, who we trust and respect, who knows him and his wife personally, and very much likes them as people (even though she has markedly different theological views).

I'm inclined to agree with Custard's view and wait to know more.

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

OK--perhaps I'm just getting unduly suspicious in my old age but... He's still listed on the Wycliffe Hall website, and the only thing Google is turning up is that article from Virtue Online.

I would have expected to see some other announcement by now from somewhere. The website doesn't particularly surprise me, but I'd be more comfortable if there were some other verification. Does anyone have confirmation beyond the Virtue Online article?

Posted by innocent(ish) (# 12691) on :

According to Virtue Online the Wycliffe Council has released a statement saying that Richard is taking a leave of absence from the hall, and they are in ongoing discussions with him over his future role at Wycliffe.

They stress that he has not been dismissed.

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

Statement from the Hall Council.

quote:
Richard Turnbull is to take a leave of absence from the Hall. The Council wishes to make it clear that the Principal has not been dismissed. The Council and Richard are now in ongoing discussions over his future role at Wycliffe...

As I posted earlier, he's a good bloke and there are lots of jobs he could doubtless be very good at. But no-one has every single gift, and if he were to continue as Principal, I think he would need to take some time out to develop his people management skills.

I wish both him and the college well.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by innocent(ish):
According to Virtue Online the Wycliffe Council has released a statement saying that Richard is taking a leave of absence from the hall, and they are in ongoing discussions with him over his future role at Wycliffe.

They stress that he has not been dismissed.

Wycliffe's website has a statement.

[x-posted with Custard]

Tubbs

[ 23. May 2012, 21:03: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :

How often does someone actually come back for a credible second attempt at the same job after a statement like that?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Well, that was a wholly transparent and informative statement. I expect the present and prospective students are completely satisfied with it and have had their minds put at rest, and are even now contemplating their studies free from worry or concern about future developments... [Paranoid]

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
How often does someone actually come back for a credible second attempt at the same job after a statement like that?

Yes, it's pretty straightforward, isn't it? Gardening leave, pending resignation by mutual consent because that's better all round than dismissal. Happened to me, in a much lowlier job and not in an academic context, years ago.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Wait and see, is my view. Equivocal and guarded statements simply tell you that there is reason for equivocation and guarding. Guessing at the reasons for that is basically a betting game.

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

It usually means we are trying to negotiate mutual agreement on whether x leaves by resignation, early retirement, ill health retirement or conveniently finds another job before anyone has to make a final decision.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
It usually means we are trying to negotiate mutual agreement on whether x leaves by resignation, early retirement, ill health retirement or conveniently finds another job before anyone has to make a final decision.

And we're trying to sort out between us how much big the pay off is going to be to ensure that the situation goes right away and is never mentioned again.

Tubbs

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :

Without being preachy do say a prayer for the ordinands. It is a bit like a Vicar suddenly leaving a Parish with no warning. Not an easy time for the house.

Posted by Clint Boggis (# 633) on :

What a misleading thread title!

So this isn't about the bible translator (my first thought for a purg discussion on a Christian site) and not about the TV detective (a reasonable alternative meaning) but some poxy college.

OP: could you really not be bothered to make it clear by adding 'Hall'?

Disappointed.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
It usually means we are trying to negotiate mutual agreement on whether x leaves by resignation, early retirement, ill health retirement or conveniently finds another job before anyone has to make a final decision.
And we're trying to sort out between us how much big the pay off is going to be to ensure that the situation goes right away and is never mentioned again.

Tubbs

Folk do think like that. It's a mistake.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
Without being preachy do say a prayer for the ordinands. It is a bit like a Vicar suddenly leaving a Parish with no warning. Not an easy time for the house.

Yep. Difficult for the folks left behind (as well as the principals involved); awkward questions, finger-pointing. No doubt even a bit of schadenfreude in places - I don't mean this thread. It's the kingdom of God and his servants that lose out when things get messy.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

Bit more in the Church Times

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
It usually means we are trying to negotiate mutual agreement on whether x leaves by resignation, early retirement, ill health retirement or conveniently finds another job before anyone has to make a final decision.
And we're trying to sort out between us how much big the pay off is going to be to ensure that the situation goes right away and is never mentioned again.

Tubbs
Folk do think like that. It's a mistake.

Not always ... But whether or not this is one of those times is anyone's guess.

Tubbs

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
What a misleading thread title!

Just changed it. Think you're right

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

It's 'trubble at t'mill', that's for sure. From the various reports I'd hazard a guess that Turnbull's 'management style' has a lot to do with it.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
From the various reports I'd hazard a guess that Turnbull's 'management style' has a lot to do with it.

Judging by what was in the earlier thread, I'd say you're right.

Moo

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
I was indeed a student at Wycliffe for 3 years under Richard. There are several shipmates who were there while he was Principal.

Richard is a really nice guy and I got on well with him most of the time. He was an effective minister when he led a small to medium sized church. He's good as a preacher (and I've heard he's good as a pastor too). He's very good at cutting through red tape, but he's not so good at managing people, and so even though I mostly agree with him on theology, I think he's probably done the right thing in resigning. Good bloke, wrong job.

What on earth would have been the right job?

Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :

He was good at his job when I met him as an Assistant Curate.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Oh dear. The Peter Principle in action.

[ 26. May 2012, 07:33: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

The information which was new to me (Church Times link) was that of further redundancies.

Now IME, when any manager has been through (or anywhere near) legal action over dismissals for whatever reason, they tend to become sticklers for following proper procedures. And particularly if the case has been lost. Then, they have been responsible for (or have at least had some responsibility for) the loss of revenue and/or reputation through their own actions and words.

But, I suppose, if there were stirrings of complaints, possibly legal complaints, following the three redundancies, and any doubt in the matter re proper procedures, then in this case the Council would have no option but to put the man on "gardening leave".

Even if my bit of speculation is anywhere near the mark, it doesn't mean he's got it wrong again. But I can see that the Council could ill-afford another "cause celebre" on a similar issue, with similar damaging publicity.

And of course it's the sort of problem institutions get for sticking loyally to someone found wanting in one area (no matter how good he might be in any others).

No doubt more will emerge.

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

What struck me about the church times story was the 140,000 loss combined with having to hand back some grants. Fwiw, in the NHS, if you finish the year over budget they fire the CEO and the finance officer.

Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :

For me, losing Will Donaldson would be the final straw. He was the compromise appointment as No. 3. Whatever the financial situation, taking him out would have been the end for non-conservatives, as well as neutral and friendly bishops.

Maybe there were enough neutrals on the Council in the end who finally snapped.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
and I've heard he's good as a pastor too ...... but he's not so good at managing people.

I don't know anything about this or any of the people involved, but are those two statements compatible?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
and I've heard he's good as a pastor too ...... but he's not so good at managing people.
I don't know anything about this or any of the people involved, but are those two statements compatible?

To be fair, I can imagine someone who is an excellent scholar, compassionate listener and trustworthy counsellor, and be utterly rubbish at managing people.

But only because they are too compassionate and kind and patient. If we're talking about abrasive, confrontational and dogmatic, I can equally imagine they'd be bad at management and a bad pastor.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

I could imagine someone kind and listening as the father in the family, but difficult and unyielding as the older brother. I've come across many who function well in authority or under authority, but poorly in less hierarchical situations.

Posted by Tyler Durden (# 2996) on :

Freejack: I'm unclear what you're saying about Will Donaldson: are you saying he's a moderate and him going made other moderates feel there was now no restraint on Turnbull et al?

Posted by innocent(ish) (# 12691) on :

'Anglican Unscripted' reports the RT had been asked to make sure a member of Oxford University Theological faculty was on the appointments panel for new academic staff. This was asked of them by both the CofE and Oxford University. A recent appointment didn't go through the proper advertising or interview process, which ended up with the situation they're now in.

They also report that there are only 8 ordinands signed up for next September (normal intake some 25 or more) - all men.

Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on :

Looking at the CT report there'sc a bit more here perhaps.

All colleges and courses (in the CofE, but elsewhere too) will lose HEFC grants in the coming year - nothing here to hand back so I don't think that is what is referred to in the article. Rather, we are all facing loss of income - but our validating universities usually channel that money. Plus, university fees are rising. Hence the CofE has a Cunning Plan here
- this involves us all linking up with the same university - chosen by the Cof E and it will not be (inter alia) Oxford or Cambridge.

However, if a college or course want to stay with its current university, it can but will need to establish bursaries.

The changes do not mean colleges etc. will face reduced funding - if they go with the new system, money will come from central funds as at present. If they keep their present university partner, they will need to make up the shortfall between what central funds provides anyway and what that university is charging.

So what RT says in the CT about needing to make redundancies due to this new system is hogwash. No-one from WH has been at any consultation meeting I've attended - are they engaging with the process? RT has a bit of a track record of not working with other colleges / courses on such matters.

And worse, the inspecion report criticises WH for not teaching theological reflection etc. - no surprise as RT had just sacked all the staff who did this - so getting rid of Will Donaldson (and abolishing his post) is not excactly going to help there.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

As I understand it* the university is anxious about the academic credibility of the BTh and wants to bring it more firmly under the theology faculty's control. The PPHs understandably want a degree which will prepare people for ministry in their particular Christian tradition. The university understandably wants a degree which is every bit as academically rigorous and demanding as any other Oxford degree. The two aims may not be entirely compatible.

*From friends. I don't personally have any connection with the university.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

And the University's concern will only be increased by the common award proposal, whereby colleges that are ostensibly part of the Oxford University system (and no doubt promote themselves as such) will be actually handing out awards validated elsewhere. The PPHs also prepare students for Oxford BAs and the University will definitely want to protect its reputation there, including through oversight of tutors.

Given the PPHs are already under scrutiny my prediction is that the University will sever the link with the theological colleges.

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

That could of course lead back to the system pre-PPHs, where Oxbridge theological colleges were not part of the university, but an "academic-track" ordinand could be at Wescott for their ministry training and Christ's for their degree (or Wycliffe & Keble or wherever).

If of course the C of E felt it helpful to keep putting a small number of ordinands through "secular" academic theology courses...

Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on :

Sorry - I was not entirely fulsomely clear before...

Under the Common Awards system, there will be 'exempted tracks'. The main criterion for this will be that the award will be mainly taught in a 'secular' theology faculty by the home team there. Tripows and Schools may fit in here - not to guarantee they will be alowed exempted status.

But if they are, there is no funding problem.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
That could of course lead back to the system pre-PPHs, where Oxbridge theological colleges were not part of the university, but an "academic-track" ordinand could be at Wescott for their ministry training and Christ's for their degree (or Wycliffe & Keble or wherever).

This is currently the case at Cambridge still for Cambridge University degrees. PPHs don't exist at Cambridge, and all those matriculating/graduating must do so through a college.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by innocent(ish):
'Anglican Unscripted' reports the RT had been asked to make sure a member of Oxford University Theological faculty was on the appointments panel for new academic staff. This was asked of them by both the CofE and Oxford University. A recent appointment didn't go through the proper advertising or interview process, which ended up with the situation they're now in.

Whoa, horsey...

So can I get this straight? Wycliffe Hall have bypassed agreed advertising and interview procedure and made an academic appointment by fiat?

Call me a luddite, local authority stick-in-the-mud, but posts are advertised widely, with an appropriately constituted interview board even if you know exactly who you want to appoint.

Not doing that is enough to get the person in charge the sack, no matter what else they might have done.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

If you look at the most recent Ministry Council Inspection Report of Wycliffe Hall you can see it up there in black and white as Recommendation No. 1.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

A rare event. I'm lost for words ...well, almost.

If that is the case, how on earth could anyone make a mistake like that?

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

No dog, IANAL, ignorant, etc., just curious.

It seems to me that the recommendation quoted by Pre-Cambrian is about who sits on the appointments board. Whereas what innocent(ish) is relaying is the story that an appointment did not follow proper advertising and interview procedure.

In other words, I don't see that the recommendation and whether or not it was observed is necessarily related directly to an improprer appointment of some sort.

[ 28. May 2012, 16:45: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A rare event. I'm lost for words ...well, almost.

If that is the case, how on earth could anyone make a mistake like that?

I suppose it depends how much of a public/private sector mentality some of the people have. I understand that the requirement to have advertising, interviews etc is very common in the public sector.

In the private sector, firms can and do just employ whoever they feel like, with whatever process they want (often, no process at all). I'm on my third employer in 16 years. I applied for the first position while at University. The other two have been entirely "private" transitions where the new employer contacted me directly through mutual acquaintances and invited me to join them. No adverts, no interviews, no other applicants - just them, wanting me.

I got the impression that that sort of thing also went on in academia, for better or for worse. But I haven't had much contact with people who stayed in that field for quite a while now.

Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
Freejack: I'm unclear what you're saying about Will Donaldson: are you saying he's a moderate and him going made other moderates feel there was now no restraint on Turnbull et al?

Well I'm not very close to the situation, but I think you'd put Will in the moderate open charismatic evangelical tradition (as in say our very own Bishop Pete) and would be acceptable to the wider evangelical community and wider church and academic community. He was appointed No.3 at about the same time as Turnbull appointed Vibert (who is more of a Sydney/Reform type) as No.2.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

By analogy with Ofsted, Wycliffe Hall has been subject to a procedure something like "special measures"' I guess these must have had some impact on normal laissez-faire freedoms.

Factors like "no more embarrassment, please" and "but we promised to do that ..." tend to weigh heavily in the mind, if an organisation is subject to close scrutiny.

Ah well, it will all come out in the wash. At least some of it ...

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
Given the PPHs are already under scrutiny my prediction is that the University will sever the link with the theological colleges.

I think the status of the PPHs isn't helped by the fact that Greyfriars, the largest of the Catholic ones, abruptly folded not so long ago in the midst of truly eye-watering levels of incompetence, leaving its students high and dry (in the end they transferred en masse to Regent's, the Baptist PPH).

Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :

Regents is a bit different in that I think it's the only one to be both a full college *and* a PPH, whereas the others are PPHs.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
... Greyfriars, the largest of the Catholic ones, a ... students ... transferred en masse to Regent's, the Baptist PPH ...

I bet that sounds odd to Americans!

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
Regents is a bit different in that I think it's the only one to be both a full college *and* a PPH, whereas the others are PPHs.

Regent's is definitely a PPH rather than a college, but its the most 'college-like' of the PPHs and seems likely to achieve college status in the long term.

Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :

Gosh I think you're right. I studied there and at the time thought it had dual status... tons of abstract brains and zero common sense.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
... Greyfriars, the largest of the Catholic ones, a ... students ... transferred en masse to Regent's, the Baptist PPH ...
I bet that sounds odd to Americans!

Never mind Americans, this whole PPH business sounds odd to those of us whose minds were shaped in the bracing winds of the Fens rather than the foetid river vapours of the Thames Valley!

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
If you look at the most recent Ministry Council Inspection Report of Wycliffe Hall you can see it up there in black and white as Recommendation No. 1.

Seems like a fair bit of that wasn't implemented to the inspectors satisfaction + the SMT said some of their recommendations weren't practical/desirable - if the guy hadn't turned that around I guess that could be a major issue.

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
If you look at the most recent Ministry Council Inspection Report of Wycliffe Hall you can see it up there in black and white as Recommendation No. 1.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
... Greyfriars, the largest of the Catholic ones, a ... students ... transferred en masse to Regent's, the Baptist PPH ...
I bet that sounds odd to Americans!
Never mind Americans, this whole PPH business sounds odd to those of us whose minds were shaped in the bracing winds of the Fens rather than the foetid river vapours of the Thames Valley!

Its getting to sound increasing odd even in our vaporous atmosphere, unfortunately for some of the smaller PPHs.

Posted by innocent(ish) (# 12691) on :

Having just read a report of a victory by Ridley Hall over Wycliffe in an annual Cricket Match, I'm now wondering if RTs departure is the all too familiar tale of the owners/trustees binning the manager after a particularly embarrassing defeat.

Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on :

If WH has only 7 students signed up for October (that sounds like part-time training to me but never mind...), then they will be in financial difficulties due to lack of fees. MinDiv used to say 50 students in toto was a minimum for a formational community. If all WH students do 3 years (they won't...) that would be... 21 eventually.

Then again - lack of any women students is indicative of something.

Some dioceses do not let ordinands go to WH - the Hall needed to ask hard questions about why that is and sort it ages ago.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

Julian Mann at Virtueonline appears to think that Richard Turnbull has now ceased to be principal. Is he jumping the gun on this, or is the news out elsewhere?

There's nothing new on the College's own website, but that seems to operate on the basis that once everyone knows anyway we will put out an emollient official statement.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
Some dioceses do not let ordinands go to WH - the Hall needed to ask hard questions about why that is and sort it ages ago.

How come? Is this a new development and was this also the case pre-RT?

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Right lets be clear there are former PPHs that are full colleges, Mansfield for one, I wonder whether Manchester is as well.

I suspect Regents like Mansfield always had a bit of dual agenda. Mansfield was partly there to give access to the teaching in Oxford to Non-conformists as well as provide ministerial training. I almost applied to Mansfield at 18 to study Mathematics but was advised by them to try St Hugh's instead.

Jengie

Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:

quote:
Some dioceses do not let ordinands go to WH - the Hall needed to ask hard questions about why that is and sort it ages ago.

How come? Is this a new development and was this also the case pre-RT?

Ah so maybe there has been a House of Bishops / Informal Alliance of DDO boycott on this year.

If 70%+ of bishops have just advised this year's candidates that they would not support an application to Wycliffe Hall, except for male applicants that came from a Reform church, or had a pre-existing Oxford connection or a personal family need to be there, then it is game over.

Bishops 1 RT 0

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

The link between theological colleges and universities has been most fruitful.

So called 'secular' theological faculties still require in many cases at least one ancient language, and provides an intellectually challenging path of suitable for a man or woman entering what one might hope, can still just be described as a learned profession.

I hope that the Church of Scotland never abandons its high academic standards required for ordination, or go down the path of training on the cheap, with weekends away and postal courses.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

Sebby, I know this is a broader question than the immediate issue of Wycliffe, but I wonder how long UK churches can sustain that level of training? Three years at least of formal training for every clergyperson is a hell of a lot of money for an ageing, shrinking Christian population to find.

Posted by Fr Raphael (# 17131) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Sebby, I know this is a broader question than the immediate issue of Wycliffe, but I wonder how long UK churches can sustain that level of training? Three years at least of formal training for every clergyperson is a hell of a lot of money for an ageing, shrinking Christian population to find.

Most do not train as long as tht I think and most do not do training at the colleges, they do a kind of part times or night school band it's much less expensive.

Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :

Of course, Wycliffe Hall, being evangelical, will be very interested in what the Bible tells us about how Jesus trained some of the most successful church-planters ever. I don't think the British predilection for intellect in ministry was quite so high on Jesus' list as some of the posts on this thread might suggest.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

But at the time of Jesus, fifty per cent of people didn't go to university.

People today don't accept what clergy say merely because they are clergy.

Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Sebby, I know this is a broader question than the immediate issue of Wycliffe, but I wonder how long UK churches can sustain that level of training? Three years at least of formal training for every clergyperson is a hell of a lot of money for an ageing, shrinking Christian population to find.

Three years is painfully little, considering that most people are coming in having not studied Theology before, and the majority of people seem to do 2 years as they're over 32.

Remember that the RC church still does 4 years of Theology and 2 years of Philosophy.

I think 4-5 years would be far better, but that would work best with single ordinands who didn't get married/have children in between.

Seriously, do you really want to cram the Old Testament, New Testament, doctrine, church history, spirituality, ethics, Anglicanism, preaching, languages, liturgy, mission, Patristics and general priestcraft (not to mention anything else of use) in 2-3 years?

AV

Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :

Perhaps rather than trying to cram everything into a two or three year course there could be a groundwork of things to cover with the expectation that those ordained engage in continuing education and training throughout their working lives. My impression is that many do this voluntarily anyway if the contents of their studies are anything to go by!

In many professions these days there is a formal requirement for some sort of continuing education to be taking place if you are to continue to practice your profession. I don't imagine that ordinands at the end of their course think "Right that's it, I've learnt it all now" so perhaps there could be a programme of 'post-ordination' study to follow. I may of course be talking in complete ignorance here, maybe such a thing already exists?

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

There is post ordination training. Initial Ministerial Training (IME) is in two parts. The first part is at theological college and that is 2-3 years. The second part is in the curacy which is normally 3-4 years if done full time. If a curacy is part time then it could be much longer. My diocese is kind and give us a year without formal study in the first year of curacy but after that I'm hoping to do an MA or some other form of accredited study.

[ 03. June 2012, 20:36: Message edited by: Poppy ]

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
Seriously, do you really want to cram the Old Testament, New Testament, doctrine, church history, spirituality, ethics, Anglicanism, preaching, languages, liturgy, mission, Patristics and general priestcraft (not to mention anything else of use) in 2-3 years?

As with many things relating to the church in the UK at the moment, this isn't about what you or I might consider ideal. It is about what is possible, and I don't think even 2 to 3 years will be possible for much longer.

quote:
Remember that the RC church still does 4 years of Theology and 2 years of Philosophy.

But they are notoriously lacking in ordinands these days!

[ 03. June 2012, 21:42: Message edited by: Yerevan ]

Posted by Ginge (# 17140) on :

Now it seems there is complete chaos at Wycliffe Hall. On Twitter Turnbull was said to have a new job there - as the Director of some Ethics group. (Centre for Enterprise, Ethics and Markets). The Wycliffe webpage never mentioned this and other staff didn't know anything about it. The Council then but published a notice to say he had stood down as principal and talked of the 'differences which existed between Turnbull and the college Council', Then today, the Bishop of Chester - the Chair of the College Council resigned 'with immediate effect.'
Sounds like the beginning of the end of a once-great institution. With hardly any students and a dwindling reputation it could be caput. Pity for those stuck there now. Seemed clear four years ago that it wouldn't survive that kind of leadership.

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

The webpage message says he's been made an Honorary Research Fellow and they are continuing talks to resolve their differences.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:

quote:
Seriously, do you really want to cram the Old Testament, New Testament, doctrine, church history, spirituality, ethics, Anglicanism, preaching, languages, liturgy, mission, Patristics and general priestcraft (not to mention anything else of use) in 2-3 years?

As with many things relating to the church in the UK at the moment, this isn't about what you or I might consider ideal. It is about what is possible, and I don't think even 2 to 3 years will be possible for much longer.

quote:
Remember that the RC church still does 4 years of Theology and 2 years of Philosophy.

But they are notoriously lacking in ordinands these days!

The argument is that ministry training is about formation – getting the extra something from someone that makes the difference between them being a good deacon / member of the PCC to being able to shape, form and lead a church and take a congregation forward. The 3 years is unlikely to change.

What may change is the number of places offering ministerial training and a decrease in the number of students graduating each year as there are fewer jobs to go round. The ratio Rev T was quoted for Baptists was 1 student looking for their first pastorate to 1 vacancy. (I’m assuming that the ratio quoted is for suitable vacancies). People on the Ship have quoted a ratio of 3 accredited pastors to one vacancy.

Expectations about what’s going to happen after graduation are also likely to change. People going straight into mid-sized or larger places as sole pastors after graduating are likely to be the exception now rather than the rule. Newly qualified pastors are more likely to be looking at smaller churches, part time posts, unpaid roles or assistant pastor jobs in large churches. (Or doing what two of the people in Rev T's year did and going where the work was - one joined an NFI mission team locally whilst another accepted a pastorate in Australia!)

Tubbs

Posted by groovy (# 17153) on :

quote:
-----------------------------------------
The webpage message says he's been made an Honorary Research Fellow and they are continuing talks to resolve their differences

What differences? It seems they are big enough that the Chair of the Council has also just resigned - see latest on the website. Turnbull is apparently putting it that he is heading up some Oxford University Centre on Ethics. They say he is not! I'm backing the university version!

Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :

I took 'talks to resolve their differences' to mean their respective legal advisors sorting out the redundancy package and what's going to be officially published.

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
Of course, Wycliffe Hall, being evangelical, will be very interested in what the Bible tells us about how Jesus trained some of the most successful church-planters ever. I don't think the British predilection for intellect in ministry was quite so high on Jesus' list as some of the posts on this thread might suggest.

You have got it back to front. The Rabbinical model that Jesus worked in is the root and origin of the University system. If Jesus passed his Rabbi interview when his parents lost him in the temple he must have been training in the scriptures some time. The length of his public ministry is disputed but he certainly devoted a significant amount of time to 'tutorials' with his disciples. Following the resurrection it is remarkable that God used Paul to bolster the academic rigour of the Early Church.

I am not an academic, more a James perhaps? But the Church needs 'Pauls' as well.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
I got the impression that that sort of thing also went on in academia, for better or for worse. But I haven't had much contact with people who stayed in that field for quite a while now.

In academia they absolutely must advertise all posts.

However, they may peruse the CV of their favoured candidate before writing the advertisement and then tailor the advertisement to the CV.

Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on :

Gordon Kuhrt analyses the situation here

Two Wycliffe staff told me last week that
1. a new chair of council will be appointed first
2. an advert for principal will appear in the New Year with a view to that person starting in Sept 2013

Of course, timetables may vary and things happen a bit quicker....

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Sebby, I know this is a broader question than the immediate issue of Wycliffe, but I wonder how long UK churches can sustain that level of training? Three years at least of formal training for every clergyperson is a hell of a lot of money for an ageing, shrinking Christian population to find.
Three years is painfully little, considering that most people are coming in having not studied Theology before, and the majority of people seem to do 2 years as they're over 32.

Remember that the RC church still does 4 years of Theology and 2 years of Philosophy.

I think 4-5 years would be far better, but that would work best with single ordinands who didn't get married/have children in between.

Seriously, do you really want to cram the Old Testament, New Testament, doctrine, church history, spirituality, ethics, Anglicanism, preaching, languages, liturgy, mission, Patristics and general priestcraft (not to mention anything else of use) in 2-3 years?

AV

Why not? Most baptist colleges do

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
[QUOTE]The ratio Rev T was quoted for Baptists was 1 student looking for their first pastorate to 1 vacancy. (I’m assuming that the ratio quoted is for suitable vacancies). People on the Ship have quoted a ratio of 3 accredited pastors to one vacancy.Tubbs

It's not quite 1:1 now but not yet 3:1 IME. I moved last year and it was quite straightforward - if anything I prolonged the process to cover a major project finishing. On the list and inducted in 9 months.

The one thing churches seem to be saying is that it's easier to settle if you are not on an extreme (i.e neither ultra reformed nor sold out totally to emerging church, labyrinths, candles etc). What some churches have said is that there isn't a shortage of candidates - just a shortage of good ones.

Of course the futures project may (will?) change this but there's another story.

In other denominations YMMV but this seems pretty much the Baptist Union perspective.

[ 13. July 2012, 12:54: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

As an ageing Baptist with a pretty liberal theological perspective, I think I would find it hard to get a suitable place. Most Baptist churches seem to want an enthusiastic Evangelical aged about 35 or so - although I may be wrong in that!

In the URC I know there are very few vacancies at present and many of those are only part-time. Given that they have now decided to absolutely link minister numbers to overal membership (which is declining), this means that it could become even harder for ministers to move on. However there is a big "bulge" of folk approaching retirement.

None of this really has much to do with Wycliffe Hall, although the Methodists' recent decision to follow their "Fruitful Fields" report and pull out of some theological colleges could have some big implications for training, within and without their Church.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

I remember hearing somewhere that the average age of people training for Methodist ministry is now fifty-something, although I can't quite believe thats true.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As an ageing Baptist with a pretty liberal theological perspective, I think I would find it hard to get a suitable place. Most Baptist churches seem to want an enthusiastic Evangelical aged about 35 or so - although I may be wrong in that!

I'd say there are many more baptist churches of a liberal hue than there were even 5 years ago - although they'd probably not use the term. It depends on how you define liberal of course - my definition might not be the same as yours!

Having just been part of the "process" for the first time in 12 years, it's interesting on how different it is. Certainly I had no problems in getting interest from churches nor in settling despite being the wrong end of 50 and being, shall we say, rather robust in some of my theological views and pronouncements. .

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