Ship of Fools: Is English really swimming both ways?

Thread: Is English really swimming both ways? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Britishisms and the Britishisation of American English

Well, Brits love to freak out at any perceived Americanisms and would never have American voice overs for products. Americans always have British people of various accents to make something sound classy. Aussies and Kiwis often seem proud to use new slang from either side of the Atlantic. Canadian accents sound educated and fair.

Formerly, Americans using any other kind of English was thought pretentious, now we're all queuing up for the lift.

Lasting trend? Temporary blip? Your experience?

[ETA tidy code, DT Host]

[ 27. September 2012, 19:51: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Something has to contain the dreaded "Northern Cities Vowel Shift."

There is some push-back though.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
There is some push-back though.

"We're sorry, currently out video library can only be streamed within the United States...."

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

I think the pretension reaction still exists. I have heard at least one blogger go off on Americans who say they went to "University" rather than "College," although that one is probably acceptable in cross-pond discussions like this one.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Botheration. This here has a link to the video at the NBC site, though that is likely to have the same problems.

It's a trailer for a fake British movie where the actors' accents are so cockneyfied as to be completely incomprehensible.

Posted by hilaryg (# 11690) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's a trailer for a fake British movie where the actors' accents are so cockneyfied as to be completely incomprehensible.

Mary Poppins?!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Newp, 'nother one.

True fact: the first time I hear the term "ginger" in reference to a red haired person was on Dr. Who.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Well, the British have had a lot of American television and films but the reverse hasn't been true to same extent.

Americans usually Yankify any English television hit instead of simply importing it. But with BBC America, a lot of British TV shows are getting exposure.

They Yankified Harry Potter, but many purists found a way to get the original JK Rowling version (wonder if her new book will be in the original Queen's English or translated for Americans who don't know "colour" is "color."

I've lived so long in worlds that aim for the Queen's Speech I still say "Isaiah" with an Eye-a and reach for a "torch" but am looking forward to the day that we all speak and spell like the Canadians, who seem to have the best of both worlds.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I once compared two versions of a book by Diana Wynne Jones, called, over here, "Wilkin's Tooth", and in the States "Witch's Business" which rather gave the game away about a central character.
Part of the USAing of the text was the way that the swearing of the nastier children was represented. In the British books, colour words such as blue, purple orange were used. In the States, these dangerous words were replaced by internal organs, such as liver, spleen, intestines. This made the comment about the air turning blue as the gang came down the road rather obscure.
Her book "Archer's Goon" was released over here with sidewalks, fenders, tires, trunks and so on, in what appeared to be a British town.
I'll be glad if that stops.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

You Brits might as well know that Americans find your accents unbearably sexy, and believe absolutely anything you say is Shakespeare. It's alarming that you find our accent so classless, but that's the way of things.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
They Yankified Harry Potter, but many purists found a way to get the original JK Rowling version...

I bought all of mine from W.H.Smith or amazon.co.uk.

(The American publisher even changed the title of the first book.)

Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I once compared two versions of a book by Diana Wynne Jones, called, over here, "Wilkin's Tooth", and in the States "Witch's Business" which rather gave the game away about a central character.
Part of the USAing of the text was the way that the swearing of the nastier children was represented. In the British books, colour words such as blue, purple orange were used. In the States, these dangerous words were replaced by internal organs, such as liver, spleen, intestines. This made the comment about the air turning blue as the gang came down the road rather obscure.
Her book "Archer's Goon" was released over here with sidewalks, fenders, tires, trunks and so on, in what appeared to be a British town.
I'll be glad if that stops.

Yes yes yes, oh my God this drives me nuts!!!! Lived in the US for many years and would find myself reading stories supposedly set in England where there was a mailbox, etc etc

Oh dear, hobby horse alert, don't get me started.

Cara

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I wondered about the first Harry Potter book: If they were afraid Americans weren't going to get the Briticisms why not put a small glossary at the back?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I wondered about the first Harry Potter book: If they were afraid Americans weren't going to get the Briticisms why not put a small glossary at the back?

Because the American media always and everywhere assume that the American public is unfathomably stupid.

'least that's my guess.

[ 27. September 2012, 19:26: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You Brits might as well know that Americans find your accents unbearably sexy, and believe absolutely anything you say is Shakespeare. It's alarming that you find our accent so classless, but that's the way of things.

Nice of you to say so--but I don't know how Americans continue to find British accents attractive, since Disney and other filmmakers have done their very best to associate the British accent with evil!

Jungle book--Shere Khan, evil--British accent.
Mowgli, Baloo etc etc--good--American accents.

That's just one example--as is well-known, there are many many more.

Anyway, if Britishisms are finally crossing the pond after years of one-way traffic in the other direction, great!

Cara

Posted by hilaryg (# 11690) on :

As a Brit currently working in the US, I am doing my bit to introduce words and phrases such as "spot on", "brilliant", "job's a good'un" and "fortnight" into the general vocabulary of the office. I am having less luck with general phrases like "what's that got to do with the price of fish", "don't keep us in suspenders" and "they know the square root of ****-all".

I am having an unconscious effect on some of my colleagues - one started pronouncing a couple of words the British way. Can't remember which they were now - might be something like controversy or advertisement or schedule. Though I do remember the frustrated "goshdarnit" from the other side of the cubicle when they realised. [Devil]

Being someone who usually picks up the local accent wherever I live, I am ensuring a daily diet of The Archers and Radcliffe and Maconie on Radio 6 in an attempt to stave off a Lloyd Grossman style mid-Atlantic drawl....

Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :

Too much Mike and Edd from "Wheeler Dealer" have me getting things "sorted", though I don't think I'll ever call the light-weight metal "al-u-min-i-um"

[ 27. September 2012, 20:51: Message edited by: monkeylizard ]

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

And I will never fathom why anyone would leave the 'i' out of aluminium when it's clearly not aluminum in the periodic table.

The only thing I am envious about is the way the Americans have held on to using imperial measurements. I still use both metric and imperial when sewing, but will never be able to estimate length entirely accurately in metric terms. In yards and inches however, I am still spot on. Or full stop on. Period. [Ultra confused]

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cara:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You Brits might as well know that Americans find your accents unbearably sexy, and believe absolutely anything you say is Shakespeare. It's alarming that you find our accent so classless, but that's the way of things.
Nice of you to say so--but I don't know how Americans continue to find British accents attractive, since Disney and other filmmakers have done their very best to associate the British accent with evil!

Jungle book--Shere Khan, evil--British accent.
Mowgli, Baloo etc etc--good--American accents.

Evil is sexy. That's all you need to know.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Evil is sexy. That's all you need to know.

English people yelling at Americans is a whole genre of American television these days.

quote:
And I will never fathom why anyone would leave the 'i' out of aluminium when it's clearly not aluminum in the periodic table.

I was curious about it enough to look it up. If the Wikipedia entry for aluminum is to be believed, both spellings become common because of completely stupid reasons.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Something has to contain the dreaded "Northern Cities Vowel Shift."

There is some push-back though.

That would be the Canadian border; linguists have searched for any trace of it up here but can't find any.

quote:
Canadian accents sound educated and fair.

That's what drives the call-centre industry here. Such centres often service American calls exclusively.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
And I will never fathom why anyone would leave the 'i' out of aluminium when it's clearly not aluminum in the periodic table.

The only thing I am envious about is the way the Americans have held on to using imperial measurements. I still use both metric and imperial when sewing, but will never be able to estimate length entirely accurately in metric terms. In yards and inches however, I am still spot on. Or full stop on. Period.

That is an entire tangent, but when you aren't making precise mathematical calculations with your measurements, but rather estimating, imperial measurements make sense. I can gesture an inch, a foot, and a yard easily, and describe a mile quite easily. I use metric units in my brewing, especially when adding hops, which you tend to add in fractions of ounces, making grams much easier to work with. But for general estimation, you can't beat a system that was based on everyday experiences, ease of calculation be damned.

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

I love the ebb-and-flow assimilation of words and phrases especially (since I've never met an Aussie I didn't like), the wonderfully-colourful stuff from the world's biggest island. I think that anyone who says they don't understand *American English* is either (i) lying (ii) has no TV/internet (iii) a pompous asshole. Doesn't really work the other way, though; imo, Americans who affect what they imagine to be Genuwyne Englishisms (which are usually quaint at best, archaic at worst and which absolutely no UK native would ever use except ironically or unless quoting P G Wodehouse), presumably to impress those of their countrymen who think it denotes some sort of Superior Intellect, just show themselves to be ludicrous twats. [Disappointed]

What annoys me is true ignorance of spleling & grammer - you can has only play wif these if you actually understand da rules innit.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Canada always got the full British version of Harry Potter. We always got the British covers to the Aubrey/Maturin series too, the Americans had different ones.

I only live a run and a swim north of the United States too, close enough to pick up American radio stations in my car.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada always got the full British version of Harry Potter. We always got the British covers to the Aubrey/Maturin series too, the Americans had different ones.

I only live a run and a swim north of the United States too, close enough to pick up American radio stations in my car.

Harry Potter was published by Raincoast Books here. A Canadian publisher - managed to fend off Scholastic. Not sure about Patrick O'Brien's books, as all of mine are second hand bookshop set of the UK publishers. I couldn't locate the name of his Cdn publisher but suspect it is either a sub of the UK one, or specifically Canuck.

I'm sorry you like so close to the border and have to swim and run over it. They have made travel so much more difficult haven't they these days! [Biased]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make, but the American covers of Harry Potter are better. Just sayin'.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
... Americans always have British people of various accents to make something sound classy ...

Quite right too. [Devil]

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make, but the American covers of Harry Potter are better. Just sayin'.

I really beg to differ!!!

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

There was a movie about the X-Craft midget submarine attempt to sink the Tirpitz, they had a big-name American actor. It was an entirely British event. They cast the actor as a Canadian and so stuck a "Canada" scroll on his shoulder to turn his Royal Naval Reserve uniform in to a Royal Canadian Naval Reserve uniform.

Cheap, eh?

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

For my own "English Invasion", I blame the Ship and Bookworm. Sure Bookworm uses American spelling, but you wouldn't believe the number of British-isms I've had to look up.

Some of the British-isms I've heard all my life (close to 60 years [Frown]

"Called Joe"- a phrasology I've used since elementary school
"sell by date"- the food packages say "sell by" so it's "sell by date", natch
""Will do"- must have come into the US from WWII. Veterans use it.

Love the words "trendy" and "one off" and "Pond".

I just consider us following the great English tradition of collecting words from hither and yon and having fun with them. Words from anywhere don't need no stinking referees to enter the English language on the streets. [Razz]

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

Yes indeed--the last thing we want is some Anglo/American version of the Academie Francaise (I don't know how to do accents in UBB) ruling words in or out. English is the world's great pirate language--we'll steal from anybody. Even ourselves. No apologies.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

"English does not borrow words from other languages; it corners other languages in dark alleys, beats them senseless and rifles their pockets for loose bits of vocabulary."

I forget who said that but it's true.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Canada always got the full British version of Harry Potter. We always got the British covers to the Aubrey/Maturin series too, the Americans had different ones.

Back when I worked for a publishing company, if a book originated in the U.S. and the rights were sold to a U.K. publisher, the U.S. publisher kept the Canadian rights. If the U.K. publisher sold it to a U.S. publisher, then the U.K. publisher kept the Canadian rights.

(FWIW, I also prefer the British covers on the Harry Potter books.)

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I've noticed the affected glottal stop in pop songs.
Katie Perry's current "I'm wide awake" has a line "on the concre'e".

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I blame Madonna. [Disappointed]

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

One has to be so careful when one criticises someone else's English, doesn't one?

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
clip.. I think that anyone who says they don't understand *American English* is either (i) lying (ii) has no TV/internet (iii) a pompous asshole. clip..
What annoys me is true ignorance of spleling & grammer - you can has only play wif these if you actually understand da rules innit.

"Either" of three alternatives is bad grammar. And "..can has.."? [Devil]

[ 28. September 2012, 07:16: Message edited by: Morlader ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
And "..can has.."?

This is not a proper sentence. Besides, my primary school teacher Miss Cahill's advice to me was "Never start a sentence with 'but', 'and', or 'because'."

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
And "..can has.."?
This is not a proper sentence. Besides, my primary school teacher Miss Cahill's advice to me was "Never start a sentence with 'but', 'and', or 'because'."

But why not? [Biased]

Seriously, this is one of those things that gets taught to people at a certain age for some unspecified reason, and then becomes fossilised in their minds as The Rules with no understanding of what the reasoning was (if there ever was a good reason), so that they don't know when it's acceptable to break it. (Declaration of interest: I do all of these, pretty much all the time). I bet she also taught you never to split an infinitive, didn't she?

English is a mongrel language, which is one of its greatest assets, but that doesn't mean I'm going to like it when people use it in what I consider the "wrong" way. I'm inconsistent. So sue me.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Eutychus: This is not a proper sentence. Besides, my primary school teacher Miss Cahill's advice to me was "Never start a sentence with 'but', 'and', or 'because'."

I start a lot of sentences with 'and' on the Ship. When I do I always wonder: is this right?

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
But why not?

Seriously, this is one of those things that gets taught to people at a certain age for some unspecified reason, and then becomes fossilised in their minds as The Rules with no understanding of what the reasoning was (if there ever was a good reason), so that they don't know when it's acceptable to break it. (Declaration of interest: I do all of these, pretty much all the time). I bet she also taught you never to split an infinitive, didn't she?

A missive came down from our Secretary of State's office a few weeks ago with the new Secretary of State's instructions on how to write English. Teaching civil servants to suck eggs basically. Not starting sentences with an "and" or "but" was on the list.

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

"And, but, because"
It depends on who you are writing for - or for whom you are writing [Devil]

. Major newspapers and the BBC have style guides which cover this sort of thing. A book by Bill Bryson "Troublesome Words" even bridges the pond.

Personally, I wouldn't start a sentence with "because" because "because" usually starts a subordinate clause. But (!) it is possible to construct a perfectly acceptable (to me) sentence starting with "because", e.g.
Because word order in English is variable, this is a 'good' sentence.

But either of more than two is always wrong.

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
One has to be so careful when one criticises someone else's English, doesn't one?

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
clip.. I think that anyone who says they don't understand *American English* is either (i) lying (ii) has no TV/internet (iii) a pompous asshole. clip..
What annoys me is true ignorance of spleling & grammer - you can has only play wif these if you actually understand da rules innit.
"Either" of three alternatives is bad grammar. And "..can has.."?

U does not win cheezburger

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Eutychus: This is not a proper sentence. Besides, my primary school teacher Miss Cahill's advice to me was "Never start a sentence with 'but', 'and', or 'because'."
I start a lot of sentences with 'and' on the Ship. When I do I always wonder: is this right?

Does it sound wrong to you as a native English speaker? Then no, it isn't. Language is defined by the linguistic community, not rules in a book.

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make, but the American covers of Harry Potter are better. Just sayin'.

And when the ebooks finally came out they retained the illustrations that had been in the print versions and had a different font which many found more pleasing.

Some enterprising souls went to the trouble of trying to combine the UK text with the US fonts/illustrations.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Back to aluminium - I had understood that there was once a conference on standardising (zing?) spelling of scientific terms, and some Britishisms (e.g. sulphur, foetus) were switched to American (sulfur, fetus) and some Americanisms (e.g. aluminum) were switched to British (aluminium), which is why British journals refer to sulfur and fetuses, but does not explain why American journals still refer to aluminum.

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I start a lot of sentences with 'and' on the Ship. When I do I always wonder: is this right?
Does it sound wrong to you as a native English speaker? Then no, it isn't. Language is defined by the linguistic community, not rules in a book.

But LeRoc is Dutch, although you can't tell he's not a native speaker from his posts. Still, I agree with your point.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Jonah the Whale: But LeRoc is Dutch, although you can't tell he's not a native speaker from his posts.

Thanks

I guess I still make some errors.

(And extra points for starting your sentence with 'but' [Biased]

)

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Back to aluminium - I had understood that there was once a conference on standardising (zing?) spelling of scientific terms, and some Britishisms (e.g. sulphur, foetus) were switched to American (sulfur, fetus) and some Americanisms (e.g. aluminum) were switched to British (aluminium), which is why British journals refer to sulfur and fetuses, but does not explain why American journals still refer to aluminum.

Both endings are used for different elements. Ex: potassium, calcium/ molybdenum, tantalum, platinum. Basically, the British went with ~ium because it sounded fancier (really), and the Americans with with ~um because the guy who first sold it thought it was easier to say (really).

Posted by snowgoose (# 4394) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

Some of the British-isms I've heard all my life (close to 60 years ):
"Called Joe"- a phrasology I've used since elementary school
"sell by date"- the food packages say "sell by" so it's "sell by date", natch
""Will do"- must have come into the US from WWII. Veterans use it.

"Called Joe"? I don't know that one. How is it used? As for the other two, I had no idea that they were originally British.

There are words/phrases that are just so useful it is hard not to adopt them; for example, "one off" (as LR notes) and the indispensable "y'all." I can't think of any American word that works as well for the job as "Blimey." ("Holy cow" sounds old-fashioned and a bit forced.) "Queue up" and "lift" are, in my opinion, less clumsy sounding than "stand in line" and "elevator." On the other hand, I am not likely to replace "crosswalk" with "zebra crossing."

There does seem to more of this back-and-forth word (and culture) exchange, and there will be even more as time goes by. The world is a lot smaller than it was before Facebook and websites like the Ship. As we share our culture, we share our words. With any luck both culture and language will be enriched.

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
For my own "English Invasion", I blame the Ship and Bookworm.

I blame PBS running old Britcoms for mine. And Snatch. Particularly the last- something/one being worth "****-all" has become ingrained... [Devil]

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

My (American) housemate says that for about the first three months that we lived together, she didn't understand about a third of what I said.

My personal favourite Britishism is "wellies". "Gumboots" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
There was a movie about the X-Craft midget submarine attempt to sink the Tirpitz, they had a big-name American actor. It was an entirely British event. They cast the actor as a Canadian and so stuck a "Canada" scroll on his shoulder to turn his Royal Naval Reserve uniform in to a Royal Canadian Naval Reserve uniform.

Cheap, eh?

Alan Thicke was busy that month. What'd you want them to do, cast Howie Mandel?

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Back to aluminium - I had understood that there was once a conference on standardising (zing?) spelling of scientific terms, and some Britishisms (e.g. sulphur, foetus) were switched to American (sulfur, fetus) and some Americanisms (e.g. aluminum) were switched to British (aluminium), which is why British journals refer to sulfur and fetuses, but does not explain why American journals still refer to aluminum.
Both endings are used for different elements. Ex: potassium, calcium/ molybdenum, tantalum, platinum. Basically, the British went with ~ium because it sounded fancier (really), and the Americans with with ~um because the guy who first sold it thought it was easier to say (really).

I've just been running it by myself in my head - I definitely find it more awkward to say aluminum in terms of physical mouth shape, unless I do it in an American accent. (I think it's something to do with the whole of the 'min' syllable, as opposed, for instance, to the 'tin' in platinum.)

This para in the Wikipedia piece is amusing.

quote:
Most countries use the spelling aluminium. In the United States, the spelling aluminum predominates.[16][62] The Canadian Oxford Dictionary prefers aluminum, whereas the Australian Macquarie Dictionary prefers aluminium. In 1926, the American Chemical Society officially decided to use aluminum in its publications; American dictionaries typically label the spelling aluminium as a British variant.

But 'ium' was accepted as the international standard in 1990 - with 'um' as an acceptable variant a few years later.

This has reminded me of the way I was led to interpret an episode in the Odyssey, in which the ship is filled with what I shall first call brimstone, as a volcanic eruption rather than a made up mythic fantasy. I read an American edition, in which what I usually saw as 'sulphur' was written as 'sulfur', and my brain immediately connected to its scientific section, which had been quiescent up till then. My brain obviously automatically assumes that if the spelling is American, the subject is science. (End of Chapter 12 if anyone's interested.)

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Language is defined by the linguistic community, not rules in a book.

It has always been thus, rules being codified after usage becomes common. ISTM, there has been an increased pace of change, as well as minority* influencing the masses, following the advent of mass communication. While this may be the new paradigm, it drives me mad.

*Celebrities, news presenters, etc.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
My personal favourite Britishism is "wellies". "Gumboots" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Of course "gumboots" isn't particularly American either, at least in this part of the colonies, where "rubber boots" is the norm.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
My personal favourite Britishism is "wellies". "Gumboots" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Of course "gumboots" isn't particularly American either, at least in this part of the colonies, where "rubber boots" is the norm.

I, coming from flyover land, would've gone with "rain-boots." Until now I would have looked perplexed if advised to wear my gumboots.

Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:

quote:
Originally posted by Cara:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You Brits might as well know that Americans find your accents unbearably sexy, and believe absolutely anything you say is Shakespeare. It's alarming that you find our accent so classless, but that's the way of things.
Nice of you to say so--but I don't know how Americans continue to find British accents attractive, since Disney and other filmmakers have done their very best to associate the British accent with evil!

Jungle book--Shere Khan, evil--British accent.
Mowgli, Baloo etc etc--good--American accents.
Evil is sexy. That's all you need to know.

but, really????!

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

Thirding requests for Lyda*Rose to splain what *called Joe* means coz I've never heard it either.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Just guessing, but it is probably called UK replaces named US.

Johnny Cash singing 'Boy called Sue' wouldn't sound right.

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :

doesn't help, Balaam - *named Joe* still means nothing to me.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Evil is sexy. That's all you need to know.

Next time someone calls you sexy you'll know what they mean, c/o Ariston. [Big Grin]

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make,.

Well, my favorite is in the last volume, where Hermione tells Ron she's just finished washing his pants. Ron reacts (understandably) -- what teenaged boy (17ish) wants a 17 year old girl touching, washing, even thinking about his underwear? I doubt that US readers (and, alas, most Canadian readers for that matter) really got that one.

John

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Never thought about "called." Does no one remember A Man Called Horse ?

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
... "gumboots" isn't particularly American either, at least in this part of the colonies, where "rubber boots" is the norm.

In Newfoundland, for reasons I can't quite fathom, they're called "government boots"; I think it's something to do with people who work seasonally and get social security at certain times of year.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Here, we just call them rubbers, which causes some teenage boys to blush.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Here, we just call them rubbers, which causes some teenage boys to blush.

To me rubbers and boots are different. Rubbers cover only the shoes, while boots go partway up the legs.

Moo

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
doesn't help, Balaam - *named Joe* still means nothing to me.

How about "A man named Joe has just started work here" - does that makes sense?

UK version

"A man called Joe has just started work here"

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Thirding requests for Lyda*Rose to splain what *called Joe* means coz I've never heard it either.

Of course, the "Joe" part is just a generic example. But if someone asked, "Who's that tall guy over there?" when I was young, someone would probably say, "He's called ____". Nowadays I'd probably say, "He's ____".

When I was trying to figure out what sort of words and phrases I had picked up that were "Britishisms", "called" was mentioned on one of the online sources. I can't remember which now. I guess they were wrong. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Here, we just call them rubbers, which causes some teenage boys to blush.
To me rubbers and boots are different. Rubbers cover only the shoes, while boots go partway up the legs.

Moo

Rubbers are used for erasing errors made with a pencil.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

Anyways, none of this disproves my original point that "wellies" is just a far more satisfying word all round [Razz]

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Wellies are typically green are they not?

Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Of course, the "Joe" part is just a generic example. But if someone asked, "Who's that tall guy over there?" when I was young, someone would probably say, "He's called ____". Nowadays I'd probably say, "He's ____".

That's interesting, because I don't think those two statements ("He's called" vs "He is") are equivalent.

The things you learn on the ship.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Wellies are typically green are they not?

They can come in any old color in my mind. Though the ones for kiddies are usually bright yellow for some reason.

Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :

I thought that was to make them easier to spot (as pedestrians) than they'd otherwise be in the rain. But maybe not.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

It seems to me that adult wellies are green. Kid's wellies come in either bright yellow or shocking pink.

Posted by Martha (# 185) on :

If you are a farmer or proper country person you have green wellies. Otherwise they are red or black.

I recently had a discussion about what to call the vehicle that picks up garbage from outside your house, and introduced my American friends to the term bin lorry. I'm not sure it will come into general use, though.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by saysay:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Of course, the "Joe" part is just a generic example. But if someone asked, "Who's that tall guy over there?" when I was young, someone would probably say, "He's called ____". Nowadays I'd probably say, "He's ____".
That's interesting, because I don't think those two statements ("He's called" vs "He is") are equivalent.

The things you learn on the ship.

So I'm a sloppy speaker of English. Wadaya expect of a Yank? [Razz]

Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :

I wasn't trying to say that like it was a bad thing - just that it illuminates some of my communication problems, some of which I suspect come from the fact that almost no one I'm currently spending time around can even understand me when I talk the way I learned to talk growing up.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

I watch enough British telly and read enough British books (James Herriot, anyone?) to have picked up a couple things here and there -- assuming I'm actually using them correctly, which is debatable. Most Americans use "around" instead of "round" (e.g., "I'm walking round the house"), but I've found myself using "round". I've also used "pop" a time or two (e.g., "I'll just pop round to the store to get eggs" instead of "I'm going to run down to the store to get eggs.").

Also, most Americans use the word "from" in some places where it seems that British folks to do not. For instance, an American might say, "I need something to stop these glasses from slipping down my nose" versus "I need something to stop these glasses slipping down my nose."

Oh, and I've been using the word "peckish" lately. Not sure if that counts.

I will not be referring to the garbage truck as the "bin lorry" anytime soon, though.
[Biased]

[ 01. October 2012, 23:53: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Bin lorry actually describes the function - after all it picks up bins which are full of garbage or recyclables. Unfortunately lorry is not a used word in Canadian. Useful that I can be multilingual in different forms of English, given some time to make the mental adjustments.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I've noticed the affected glottal stop in pop songs.
Katie Perry's current "I'm wide awake" has a line "on the concre'e".

That's been a feature of some East Coast and African-American accents for a long time--I have a New Jersey friend who's always substituted a glottal stop for an intervocal t. "Ki'en" for "kitten," "Pa'erson" for "Patterson", etc.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

There are green wellies and green wellies - posh ones and ones the same as the black ones, but green. And a tangent tale - a farmer was taken into hospital after an electric shock from overhead wires leapt to him through a metal pole he was carrying beneath them (no contact, it was a wet day). "Your boots are green, aren't they?" commented the doctor. "How did you know?" asks the farmer. "You're alive," said the doctor.

[ 02. October 2012, 14:50: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

You're behind the times, Pete - true yuppie wellies now come in a variety of colours and usually have some kind of pattern on as well - flowers, stripes, whatever. I've even seen wellies with pictures of dogs and horses on them.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Barefoot Friar:

quote:
Also, most Americans use the word "from" in some places where it seems that British folks to do not. For instance, an American might say, "I need something to stop these glasses from slipping down my nose" versus "I need something to stop these glasses slipping down my nose."

Either of those would be considered grammatical in British English, although most Brits would drop the 'from' in casual speech.

However in British English,'I visited with the vicar' would mean you went on a visit (to a third party) accompanied by the vicar, not that you went to visit/talk to the vicar. And it would be considered obscure (at best) or ungrammatical (at worst) without a noun phrase representing the third party inserted before 'with', eg;

'I visited Dorothy with the vicar'.

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :

I think most Brits would say "I went round to Dorothy's with the vicar" or the (grammatically incorrect!) "Me and the vicar went over to Dorothy's this afternoon"(!!)

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Bin lorry actually describes the function - after all it picks up bins which are full of garbage or recyclables. Unfortunately lorry is not a used word in Canadian. Useful that I can be multilingual in different forms of English, given some time to make the mental adjustments.

When I was a kid, they were known as "dustcarts". The term "bin lorry" is fairly recent.

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :

I'm sure we called them 'dustbin trucks'.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
If you are a farmer or proper country person you have green wellies. Otherwise they are red or black.

Green is posh country. Black is ordinary country. Coloured is kids or young women who live in towns.

Or so my old Durham prejudices tell me. "Green wellies" was slang for students who had been to well-known private schools and had posh accents. Which was quite a lot of them. Though the word "green" was mostly silent. So "he's a right welly" h meant, more or less, that he had been to Harrow or Rugby or Eton or some such place. But it was definitely only green wellies that counted.

Green wellies with straps on.

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I've noticed the affected glottal stop in pop songs.
Katie Perry's current "I'm wide awake" has a line "on the concre'e".
That's been a feature of some East Coast and African-American accents for a long time--I have a New Jersey friend who's always substituted a glottal stop for an intervocal t. "Ki'en" for "kitten," "Pa'erson" for "Patterson", etc.

And its perfectly standard in the south-east of England too. (As well as, for some reason, Glasgow)

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Here, we just call them rubbers, which causes some teenage boys to blush.
To me rubbers and boots are different. Rubbers cover only the shoes, while boots go partway up the legs.

Moo
Rubbers are used for erasing errors made with a pencil.

Or preventing errors made with a penis.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

I remember dustcarts. I think from Mary Poppins,

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Barefoot Friar:
quote:
Also, most Americans use the word "from" in some places where it seems that British folks to do not. For instance, an American might say, "I need something to stop these glasses from slipping down my nose" versus "I need something to stop these glasses slipping down my nose."

Either of those would be considered grammatical in British English, although most Brits would drop the 'from' in casual speech.

However in British English,'I visited with the vicar' would mean you went on a visit (to a third party) accompanied by the vicar, not that you went to visit/talk to the vicar. And it would be considered obscure (at best) or ungrammatical (at worst) without a noun phrase representing the third party inserted before 'with', eg;

'I visited Dorothy with the vicar'.

That makes sense. I usually say "I went to visit Mrs. Y." or "I went with Mr. X visit Mrs. Y.", but I've said it the other way, too.

Posted by Martha (# 185) on :

Yes, I think US "visiting with" is equivalent to UK "coming over for a cup of tea". Indicates you sat down to chat and generally catch up with each other's lives.

My husband uses "ash cart" as a synonym for garbage truck, but I attribute this to him being from the grim North.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

If the varieties of English are merging in some ways, they're divergting in others.

Wonder if I'm the only one why finds 19th and early 20th British novels and short stories to be easier to read than early 21st century British novels and short stories?

E.g. "Hugo, being pissed, longed to snog with Kendra but had to wait for the sat-nav to lead him to the first available cash point in Harley Street."

Whereas every word of Sherlock Holmes is perfectly understandable to the Yanks.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

<re visit/visit with>

Alaric, I did not intend to imply that 'I visited Dorothy with the vicar' was something that British people say a lot - merely that it is a grammatical sentence in British English. Whereas

*I visited with the vicar

is not, although it's acceptable in US English.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
<re visit/visit with>

Alaric, I did not intend to imply that 'I visited Dorothy with the vicar' was something that British people say a lot - merely that it is a grammatical sentence in British English. Whereas

*I visited with the vicar

is not, although it's acceptable in US English.

It was only a matter of time before a thread like this brings out the pedants, e.g. me. So here goes.

"I visited with the vicar" is perfectly grammatical, it's just not always particularly clear. If in response to the question "Did you visit Dorothy by yourself?" you replied, "No, I visited with the vicar" it would be unobjectionable, although "No, I went with the vicar" woud be more likely.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Green is posh country. Black is ordinary country. Coloured is kids or young women who live in towns.

I agree. Green is Gloucestershire, whereas black is definitely the colour I remember being worn by dairy farmers in Cardiganshire.

Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :

I was hoping one of our Kiwi shipmates would be along to settle the boot discussion, but since they haven't, I give you The Gumboot Song! (One of the few New Zealand creations that Aussies have not claimed...)

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
If the varieties of English are merging in some ways, they're divergting in others.

Wonder if I'm the only one why finds 19th and early 20th British novels and short stories to be easier to read than early 21st century British novels and short stories?

E.g. "Hugo, being pissed, longed to snog with Kendra but had to wait for the sat-nav to lead him to the first available cash point in Harley Street."

"Pissed" is a word best not to use. If an American says, "I'm pissed," they are fed up with something/someone. A Brit would have had too much alcohol.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Athrawes:
I was hoping one of our Kiwi shipmates would be along to settle the boot discussion, but since they haven't, I give you The Gumboot Song! (One of the few New Zealand creations that Aussies have not claimed...)

Weegies would claim it though.

Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :

I love it, but hope he paid John Clark some royalties [Razz]

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

And I thought it was Billy Connolly - a song about Scottish national dress, wellies.

M.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:

Americans usually Yankify any English television hit instead of simply importing it. But with BBC America, a lot of British TV shows are getting exposure.

Top Gear and other motor racing channels are my current faves. On F1 races here in the US, 3 out of 4 commentators are Englishmen. The fourth man is frequently called away to car auctions and replaced by another Englishman. Having met David Hobbs once at my local racing venue I would have to say he is my favourite. I have never driven an actual race car but I did take the helm of a supercharged Jaguar saloon car a few months ago, accompanied by a former Le Mans winner. With only one or two practice laps, I was not very fast, but my wife was also along for the ride.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
If you are a farmer or proper country person you have green wellies. Otherwise they are red or black.

Here on the west of Ireland, they come in every colour and pattern, as they are used as a fashion statement. Given how much it rains, many people wear them the whole time, even when going to night-clubs and things (very odd, I know) so they make the best of a bad job by 'accessorising' them.

Did I mention that it's a bit damp around here? [Eek!]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

When I were a lad, green was the only color they came in. Your fashion choice was loops or no loops.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I always laugh when Americans say fanny, but that's because my inner 12 year old never really felt the need to grow up.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
When I were a lad, green was the only color they came in. Your fashion choice was loops or no loops.

Didn't you see the heavy duty black ones with soles like bits of tyres and big wide tops you could get two pairs of trousers into? Sometimes with metal toe-caps? Like these.

Round here occasionally worn by people on damp construction sites but more often by farmers doing whatever things farmers do with mud and muck and heavy machinery.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

Rubbers, IIRC.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

I have no word for them because I have never spoken about them. If I ever saw one it was unknowingly.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Does this refer to the big overtrousers that anglers wear? If so, then they would be called waders... They are the only vaguely similar thing I can think of!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

That's surprising- galoshes are ever so useful.

[ 04. October 2012, 16:41: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.
I have no word for them because I have never spoken about them. If I ever saw one it was unknowingly.

I've had a job where I used overshoes. They're galoshes in the UK too.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Wut's the Roast-Beef expression for the boots what fits over one's shoes then? We calls them "galoshes" here in Freedom-Land.

Spats?

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Spats do not cover the sole of the shoe, unlike galoshes which cover the whole shoe.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Reminds me of this (which I found with a complicated Google search. If you scroll down you might find the whole poem: for the usual reasons I've just quoted a few lines:

quote:
Reminds me of a brilliant poem by the late and much-lamented "Observer" columnist, Paul Jennings. I knew I had it somewhere - a book called "The Jenguin Pennings" which has the price of 3/6d printed on the cover - it was published in 1963. I hope it gives you as much pleasure as it has me. Here it is:-

I'm having a rapprochement with galoshes
And some would say this heralds middle age;
Yes, sneering they would say
'Does he always wear pince-nez?
Old jossers wore galoshes when ladies' hats were cloches,
Ha! Woollen combinations are this dodderer's next stage!'
.....
There's nothing manly, I repeat,
In always having cold wet feet;
Galoshlessness is foolishness when sharply slants the sleet -
And I utterly refuse
The expression 'overshoes',
To make galoshes posher I would scorn this feeble ruse.
....

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

Just noticed this thread!

From the OP article:

quote:
Yagoda notices changes in pronunciation too - for example his students sometimes use "that sort of London glottal stop", dropping the T in words like "important" or "Manhattan".

Where I'm from (Great Lakes area), that glottal-stop "t" has been around a long time. I can't imagine an American pronouncing the t's as "t" in "important" or "Manhattan". To my ears, that would sound pretentious! I'm from Detroit, and we notoriously pronounce the second "t" in our city's name as a glottal stop. Also, Toronto natives drop the 2nd t in their cities name (as do we in Michigan), so I think that's a Great Lakes region pronunciation thing.

Ship of Fools has added "Britishisms" to my own speech. I've found myself saying some food or other has "gone off" (natively I would say it's "gone bad"), and that something was "missed out" rather than "left out." Or "meant to" instead of "supposed to" - I tend to use either one. I'm sure I could think of more if I took the time.

Not from SoF necessarily, but I think it makes more sense to fill in a form, as the British do, rather than to fill out a form, as we do in my native dialect. Curiously, we "fill out" a form, but on the form, we "fill in" blanks or other specific data points. E.g., "If you could fill out this form - you only need to fill in your name, address, and date; we'll take care of the rest."

For a few decades I've noticed my friends and I using Britishisms thanks to television and music. It's only increased thanks to the internet and BBC America, along with popular books like Harry Potter, I suppose (I've never read them). It's only natural - you find a nice phrase, you keep it. Why shouldn't that happen? (As long as others around you understand your meaning.)

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Americans might not all use the glottal stop but few of them, IME, pronounce the letter 'T' except as an initial consonant. It is usually something like a soft 'D". (Manhadd'n)

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

I pronounce Manhattan with a vocalic n after the second 'a'. Man-ha-n.

Moo

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Americans might not all use the glottal stop but few of them, IME, pronounce the letter 'T' except as an initial consonant. It is usually something like a soft 'D". (Manhadd'n)

I've never heard anybody voice the T's in Manhattan.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I've always found the inner London glottal choke, as in dropping "t"s,[<< geh - in' >> for <<getting>>] hard vocal work, adding to the difficulty of saying the word. Mind you I was brought up sounding like Prince Charles, who does NOT glottaly choke, even if he does gargle marbles.

One Americanism that gets me, and the NRSV is riddled with it, is the construction

quote:
one hundred forty four thousand

which always sounds to me like 100[x](44,000) therefore (and my maths fails me at this point) 44,000 with a shitload of zeroes after it,* rather than 144,000. Or, say "one hundred sixty nine" (the number of pancakes Little Black Sambo ate), which to me sounds like 6,900 pancakes (100 x 69) rather than 169 (one hundred and sixty nine).

Paradoxically there was a quaint extension in deep southern speak where the year 1886 would become "eighteen and eighty six", (heard at the beginning of the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Mr Bojangles", in the interview with the owner of the dog that sings ... but elsewhere, too), but I think that was a generational thing.

I doubt if many bonza ockerisms have wrought their shenanigans elsewhere, and fewer kiwi-isms. Kiwis incidentally, tend to say "woman" and "women" identically, which is confusing.

*14,400,000 I think. [Confused]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

I was incidentally staggered the first time I heard "route" pronounced like the verb "to rout", rather than "root". I gather that's mixed in the states, with either being acceptable (Rout 66, or Root 66*), but I suspect because of the computer hardware "router" the former will colonise the world.

*which of course would have a different meaning in OZ/NZ, as in "a wombat/kiwi eats roots and leaves" [Ultra confused]

[ 05. October 2012, 22:38: Message edited by: Zappa ]

Posted by Ondergard (# 9324) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make, but the American covers of Harry Potter are better. Just sayin'.

Where does this irritating "just saying" bollocks come from? It seems to occur in posts from Americans - or faux Americans - who want to say something offensive and think that a twee mis-spelled ending to their sentence will ward off the irritated. Not so.

I bet it came from one more in the long line of crap American tv programmes which has polluted the entertainment stream of this planet.

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
I'm sure we called them 'dustbin trucks'.

We just call them the garbo truck!

Anyway, 'avagoodwekend!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:
Where does this irritating "just saying" bollocks come from? It seems to occur in posts from Americans - or faux Americans - who want to say something offensive and think that a twee mis-spelled ending to their sentence will ward off the irritated. Not so.

I bet it came from one more in the long line of crap American tv programmes which has polluted the entertainment stream of this planet.

You find assertions of the superiority of the American covers of Harry Potter offensive? In a post referencing "the long line of crap American tv programmes which has polluted the entertainment stream of this planet." [Roll Eyes]

[ 06. October 2012, 02:15: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I doubt if many bonza ockerisms have wrought their shenanigans elsewhere, and fewer kiwi-isms.

Didn't "uni" come from Australia, as one of the many abbreviations used in everyday speech?

(This abbreviation really jars for some reason. I never cared much for "varsity" either.)

(And I really dislike "leccy" for electricity, though that started here.)

[ 06. October 2012, 08:06: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by Clint Boggis (# 633) on :

Following on from Zappa's numerical thoughts, it always sounds odd to me that Americans say "three and one half" with the redundant, often "one". We'd always say three-and-a-half" with a barely-enunciated '-a-'. Many fractions do need fully specifying (two thirds, three quarters, seven eights) but no-one would doubt the number of halves in a quantity as you can only ever have one.

[ 06. October 2012, 09:58: Message edited by: Clint Boggis ]

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
but I suspect because of the computer hardware "router" the former will colonise the world.

Even in computer stores it is pronounced rooter. No sign of a takeover here.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
One Americanism that gets me, and the NRSV is riddled with it, is the construction

quote:
one hundred forty four thousand
which always sounds to me like 100[x](44,000)

There is an Anglicized Edition of the NRSV, but then there'd probably be Britishisms in there you wouldn't like.

quote:
I doubt if many bonza ockerisms have wrought their shenanigans elsewhere, and fewer kiwi-isms.

Though we wouldn't use the phrase, we do understand what a chunder in the dunny is.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

quote:
one hundred forty four thousand ]which always sounds to me like 100[x](44,000)
There is an Anglicized Edition of the NRSV, but then there'd probably be Britishisms in there you wouldn't like.

... ooo, no, I'd cope with them.
,

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
we do understand what a chunder in the dunny is.

I don't, of course. [Disappointed]

Incidentally I went to varsity in Enzed, but when I came and went again in Oz it was Uni, and now I think Uni has taken over in EnZed

College in both these antipodean countries would be what one goes to from about aged 13-18 ... [Frown]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

(And I really dislike "leccy" for electricity, though that started here.)

Don't know where 'here' is, but I thought it was a scouseism. There's a large housing estate on the fringe of Liverpool divided by a road, and the sides were distinguished by whether they had mains gas (the Gas side) or not, (the Leccy side).

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I've always found the inner London glottal choke...

Glottal stop. And its not just inner London its the whole urban south-east of England. I was brought up speaking like that in the 1950s and 60s in Brighton. (And we used to say "innit")

Effectively all English speakers use glottal stops for inter-vocalic /t/ at least sometimes. Down here in the south-east of England we do it almost all the time.

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Even in computer stores it is pronounced rooter. No sign of a takeover here.

Or in the south-east of England, "ROO'uh" [Smile]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

For years I lived in a city here called Renton, but you rarely said "ren-tun"; the natives call it re'un with a glottal stop in the middle. And we're a good few thousand miles from SE England.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
...it always sounds odd to me that Americans say "three and one half"

Not me- I would usually say "Three anna-haff"

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I've always found the inner London glottal choke...
Glottal stop. And its not just inner London its the whole urban south-east of England.

Plus Grea'er Manchester. (I think they sound the T after an S. Difficult not to)

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I say something close to "three yunna half."

ETA: I think "three and one half" would be in more formal situations, say on a newscast.

[ 06. October 2012, 13:47: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ondergard:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I don't know how much difference the Americanisms make, but the American covers of Harry Potter are better. Just sayin'.
Where does this irritating "just saying" bollocks come from? It seems to occur in posts from Americans - or faux Americans - who want to say something offensive and think that a twee mis-spelled ending to their sentence will ward off the irritated. Not so.

I bet it came from one more in the long line of crap American tv programmes which has polluted the entertainment stream of this planet.

I first heard it about 10 years ago from a Californian friend who was supply-teaching in the rough end of Oakland. I gather that she heard the expression from Black or Latino teenagers who wanted to make points without challenging another to a fight. By the middle part of that decade, I came to hear it on US television programmes.

A social linguist acquaintance confirms this dating. She has just finished a splendid academic paper on the use of "absolutely" as an emphatic positive response, dating it to 1991-- it has since appeared in novels and films set in Victorian times and the 1940s and 1950s. There is a apparently a circle of language geeks who watch films set in other periods for linguistic anachronisms such as this. I suppose that it keeps them out of billiard parlours.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I'm reading The House of Silk by Anthony Horowitz, which is a sort of spoof Sherlock Holmes novel. Purportedly written by Dr Watson around 1912 and embargoed for 100 years because of its politically sensitive nature. It is very well done and captures Watson's plodding style, but I keep getting subconsciously jarred by what I sense are anachronisms but can't put my finger on.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

The one place I do use a glottal stop instead of a 't' is at the end of 'that' in the phrase, 'that one'.

Moo

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I've always found the inner London glottal choke...
Glottal stop.

Sarcasm clearly wasted. [Disappointed]

(As it happens I come from South-east England, but never mind).

I also find the US construction

quote:
X died September 24, 2009

awkward. Sort of a conjunction free zone. [Confused]

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

'sceuse me when I come back to the wellies. Somehow I've got it in my mind that Elizabeth Windsor wears green wellies. QED: Green wellies are posh.

I gather that "tidy" and "lush" have meandered from south Wales (never heard them in the north) to England-English, so I wonder if they'll meander to America as well.

If I am allowed to offer a tangent: People who've been in seminars where I've been interpreting have picked up words like "sound" (to mean "good"), "dead" (to mean "very"), "deffo" (to mean "certainly") and "gobshite" (to mean "Man Utd fan"). I've heard people from Belarus, Germany and Russia using those words as consequence.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Rosa Winkel:

quote:
I gather that "tidy" and "lush" have meandered from south Wales (never heard them in the north) to England-English, so I wonder if they'll meander to America as well.

In what context would you use them?

I've usually heard "lush" used to describe lawn grass or garden foliage. Or mascaraed eye-lashes on TV commercials. [Roll Eyes]

Tidy not so much, but occasionally someone will say, "I'll tidy up" instead of "I'll clean up". "Tidy" generally means lighter work than "clean".

I've heard both words used at times all my life, 50+ years, in California.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
("just saying") I first heard it about 10 years ago from a Californian friend who was supply-teaching in the rough end of Oakland. I gather that she heard the expression from Black or Latino teenagers who wanted to make points without challenging another to a fight.

In that context, not "bollocks" at all. It was a good adaptation to keep conversing without resorting to violence. And street violence can get ugly in some neighborhoods.

BTW, Ondergard, the word "bollocks" isn't a favorite of mine either, but life is too short to stop and savor a moment of irritation. Just sayin'. [Razz]

Posted by Martha (# 185) on :

Those are the standard meanings, but I'm assuming Rosa Winkel is referring to their more slangy sense. Lush is a Bristol-ism as well as a Welsh-ism, often in the phrase "gert lush", which the Urban Dictionary defines as "The highest form of praise that can be given to anything by a Bristolian."

Tidy has a similar meaning of great, good - I'd maybe use it in the phrase, "That's a tidy bit of work" meaning a substantial job well done.

Martha, ex-Bristolian

(That was aimed at Lyda Rose's previous post.)

[ 07. October 2012, 02:55: Message edited by: Martha ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Ah, thanks!

Posted by HenryT (# 3722) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I was incidentally staggered the first time I heard "route" pronounced like the verb "to rout", rather than "root". I gather that's mixed in the states, with either being acceptable (Rout 66, or Root 66*), but I suspect because of the computer hardware "router" the former will colonise the world.

*which of course would have a different meaning in OZ/NZ, as in "a wombat/kiwi eats roots and leaves"

In Canada, Roots is a major clothing store; apparently items like this sweatshirt are frequently souvenirs for folks from the Antipodes.

On the root/rout item, in the computer industry I hear both but more often the "oo" version. And that includes in phone conversations between California, Ottawa, and Israel. YMMV. That is, a "rooter" is where you direct the packets with "root add" (and if it's Unix, with "root privilege") even though the command is typed "route add", and the hardware device is inventoried as "router".

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HenryT:
In Canada, Roots is a major clothing store;

See, now, when I saw that, I read it in my head to rhyme with soots, not boots or flouts. "oo" is ambiguous because it could be like the "oo" in good or the "oo" in food. In my idiolect, at least, when the word "roots" stands by itself, it has the "oo" of "good." Pronouncing it with a long "oo" sounds overprecise or stuffy.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
Those are the standard meanings, but I'm assuming Rosa Winkel is referring to their more slangy sense. Lush is a Bristol-ism as well as a Welsh-ism, often in the phrase "gert lush", which the Urban Dictionary defines as "The highest form of praise that can be given to anything by a Bristolian."

It might have become more widespread since the proliferation of the Lush stores (the ones that sell huge blocks of soap you can buy a chunk of, etc etc).

ETA there was a time when "lush" could also mean someone who usually drank too much. "He's an old lush."

[ 07. October 2012, 08:11: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

'Lush' in the Bristol sense was also prevalent in the North East (of England) back in the late seventies.

About American dates (not the things you eat): I don't understand the logic of putting month/day/year when you could start with the smallest and go up to the biggest with day/month/year. 7 October 2012 - or 07-10-12 - makes more sense to me than 10-07-12. I know some British people, even more illogically, use the American way when using the name of the month, but in numerical form it is always the other.

9/11 threw me for a long time, but I realise the poignant connection with the emergency phone number.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Ogiginally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
A social linguist acquaintance confirms this dating. She has just finished a splendid academic paper on the use of "absolutely" as an emphatic positive response, dating it to 1991

I was using it in that sense when I was at college in the late 70's.

M.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I can date that use of absolutely back into the early 80s too

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

I remember being on a business trip to Colorado Springs, and I visited one of my contacts at his home. During the conversation I happened to use the phrase "half five" (I can't remember exactly what the number was) to denote "half past five". He then had to explain to his teenage children, who were present, what I was talking about! I never realised that we really were that divided by a common language!

Talking about Americanisms, I rather like the use of "the fall" to denote the autumn. I really wished we used that phrase here in ye olde Mother Country. It has an obvious evocative ring about it, but I don't find its simplicity a problem, but rather it adds to the sense (a bit like Spring, I suppose).

Apparently we did use "fall" in this sense at one time, and Gerard Manley Hopkins used it in his poem Spring and Fall (with a double, or possibly even triple, meaning).

[ 07. October 2012, 10:58: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"oo" is ambiguous because it could be like the "oo" in good or the "oo" in food.

Or the "oo" in blood.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
"oo" is ambiguous because it could be like the "oo" in good or the "oo" in food.
Or the "oo" in blood.

I think we need the IPA! As different English speakers say those words differently from each other, we can't actually sure which vowels you mean!

Some British people might have noticed recent TV adds for the Co-op shops (I think) where the voiceover actors says "good food" with the same vowel in each word. If I said that I'd have used different vowels.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

Tidy not so much, but occasionally someone will say, "I'll tidy up" instead of "I'll clean up". "Tidy" generally means lighter work than "clean".

I think there is a double-disconnect here. In standard British usage "tidying up" is distinct from "cleaning". Tidying is putting things where they belong - books on shelves, plates in cupboards. Maybe making the bed. "Cleaning" is removing dirt from things and probably involves various cloths and fluids.

A tidy house is probably a clean one as well, but its primarily an organised house, with things in their proper places.

But recently the word has been extended to a general term of approval, with a wide range of meanings. Including someone who can "look after themselves" in a fight. For example boxing fans might call a boxer "tidy" (example here)

"Lush" is another word which has a wide range of use. Not so much many meanings, but one basic meaning of abundant or generous or well-supplied or fertile, with overtones of the soft and loose, which gets used in different ways. Lush vegetation. A lush garden has lots of vigorously growing plants in it. A lushly decorated room probably has lots of different furnishings and fabrics, maybe with rich colours and exotic patterns. And is probably comfortable in a rather soft and luxurious way. Lush music might be heavily arranged and a bit sexy. If someone is "a lush" they have taken advantage of an abundance of drink. On the other hand if someone is just "lush" then they are attractive - well maybe rather more than merely attractive. It implies abundant charms. A bit in your face.

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :

I first came across lush and tidy as words of approval in the tv show Gavin and Stacey.
That could be why they've caught on more widely.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I remember being on a business trip to Colorado Springs, and I visited one of my contacts at his home. During the conversation I happened to use the phrase "half five" (I can't remember exactly what the number was) to denote "half past five". He then had to explain to his teenage children, who were present, what I was talking about!

In German halb fünf means four-thirty.

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

I was so puzzled by someone's comment on the pop singer's 'affected' glottal stop initially I couldn't think what on earth they meant.

I grew up in Portsmouth in a somewhat oversheltered home, and when I when to secondary school and a girl demanded 'jew wannasmay mayf?'
I struggled to respond immediately.
A peanut to the first correct translation.
clue, I had accidently bumped into her in the crowded corridor.

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I remember being on a business trip to Colorado Springs, and I visited one of my contacts at his home. During the conversation I happened to use the phrase "half five" (I can't remember exactly what the number was) to denote "half past five". He then had to explain to his teenage children, who were present, what I was talking about!
In German halb fünf means four-thirty.

I am aware of this (my German is fairly reasonable).

But are you saying that Americans generally would understand "half five" as Germans would understand "halb fünf"?

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
But are you saying that Americans generally would understand "half five" as Germans would understand "halb fünf"?

If they were more familiar with German than with British English, yes. I didn't realize until just now that half five means five-thirty to the British.

Moo

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

I used that once (in America) and someone assumed it was a smart alec way of saying two-thirty.

Posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus (# 2515) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
If someone is "a lush" they have taken advantage of an abundance of drink.

I thought "a lush" was a boy in a public (i.e. private, for American readers) school whose, err, charms were not lost on the older boys.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:
Originally posted by Moo

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I remember being on a business trip to Colorado Springs, and I visited one of my contacts at his home. During the conversation I happened to use the phrase "half five" (I can't remember exactly what the number was) to denote "half past five". He then had to explain to his teenage children, who were present, what I was talking about!
In German halb fünf means four-thirty.
I am aware of this (my German is fairly reasonable).

But are you saying that Americans generally would understand "half five" as Germans would understand "halb fünf"?

An American wouldn't understand it at all.

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I used that once (in America) and someone assumed it was a smart alec way of saying two-thirty.

Now that you're in seminary in the US, are you picking up too many Americanisms?

(I am still driving what passes for a ten-year-old Opel Vectra estate.)

Posted by Halo (# 6933) on :

I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'- not a squashed friend but someone who you share a house with. I think the amount of Kiwis living over there probably helped their understanding of the term.

Then again maybe I should say 'New Zealanders' to avoid the old 'Kiwis' vs 'kiwis' debate?

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'

I can't think what else you would call them. Housemate possibly - but only if you lived in a house. 'Flat' is standard UK for accommodation which is part of a larger building.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Nobody said 'half five' before the sixties. It caused quite a lot of confusion in those days because people who knew minimal German didn't know whether it was supposed to mean half past five or half past four.

There was a widespread belief that, like the modern usage of 'hopefully' from 'hoffentlich', the phrase had entered English from German immigrants to the US, and been misunderstood by native English speakers who had assumed it must be a smart way of saying half past five. But nobody knew on which side of the Atlantic the mistake had been made. So it could have been that in the US it meant half past four.

I don't use the idiom.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Nobody said 'half five' before the sixties.

Late 50s, in my recollection.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'
I can't think what else you would call them. Housemate possibly - but only if you lived in a house. 'Flat' is standard UK for accommodation which is part of a larger building.

The one I puzzle over is "roommate". To me that suggests you share a bedroom — such as in university in the US. But I think some people use it as an alternative to housemate/flatmate, and mean you each have a separate bedroom in a shared house.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Well yes, I've seen ads for "roommates" on this side of the Atlantic, too, meaning a room to let that has twin beds in it. They're not common but they do happen.

[ 08. October 2012, 11:21: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'- not a squashed friend but someone who you share a house with.

Its a normal English word. Why do you think its specially kiwi?

Even if it wasn't a usual word and I'd never heard it before I think I'd suss it immediately by analogy with "housemate", "roommate", "bedmate", "nestmate". "-mate" is a normal way to form a word for two or more people (or other animals) that live together.

quote:
Originally posted by Amorya:
The one I puzzle over is "roommate". To me that suggests you share a bedroom — such as in university in the US. But I think some people use it as an alternative to housemate/flatmate, and mean you each have a separate bedroom in a shared house.

Yes. Sharing a room ought to imply you all live in one room and get to see each other in bed. Does imply, in my usage of English.

I think the US usage of dormitory/dorm might have similar confusion here. In British English its one big room with lots of beds in it - something that hardly exists any more, I'm not sure I've ever seen one in Britain outside films or TV programmes about boarding schools. And I suspect even they are giving them up.

But my impression from US TV and films - lets be honest, almost entirely from "Buffy" - is that an American university can use "dorm" for a set of single or double bedrooms which share other facilities. Not sure what we'd call that here, though it exists, in fact its quite common. I suppose "suite" and "apartment" are both possible but they sound a bit posh for student rooms.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Student flats is what that gets called over here. That what my daughter lived in for the last 4 years in student halls. Flats with a shared kitchen/living room, one or more bathrooms and 5 - 8 bedrooms with locking doors.

Dorms still exist in youth hostels.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I think the US usage of dormitory/dorm might have similar confusion here. In British English its one big room with lots of beds in it - something that hardly exists any more, I'm not sure I've ever seen one in Britain outside films or TV programmes about boarding schools.

Never been to a Youth Hostel?

quote:
But my impression from US TV and films - lets be honest, almost entirely from "Buffy" - is that an American university can use "dorm" for a set of single or double bedrooms which share other facilities. Not sure what we'd call that here, though it exists, in fact its quite common.

We tend to call them "Halls" up here.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But my impression from US TV and films - lets be honest, almost entirely from "Buffy" - is that an American university can use "dorm" for a set of single or double bedrooms which share other facilities. Not sure what we'd call that here, though it exists, in fact its quite common. I suppose "suite" and "apartment" are both possible but they sound a bit posh for student rooms.

A dorm is a building with bedrooms. A set of single or double bedrooms with shared bathroom and living room is a suite. Some people stumble over calling the people who share such quarters suitemates, but others have no problem. My daughter used to refer to her 'suities'.

Moo

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

When I lived in such accommodation (in the UK), I refereed to those who shared it with me as "flatmates", since it was essentially a flat.

A dorm in the UK is a single room where many people sleep.

Agreed that "roommates" in the UK means that you sleep in the same room, just as "bathroom" means a room with a bath in it.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Never been to a Youth Hostel?

Not while it was open to the public! I'm more of a little tent in my backpack sort of person. (and anyway I was talking about where students sleep - you get shared rooms in hospitals here. And I'd guess barracks as well)

quote:

We tend to call them "Halls" up here.

Well, yes. But a "hall" in that sense is the entire building. Do we have a name other than "flat" for the suite of rooms around a landing or a corridor or a kitchen? Maybe we don't.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:

We tend to call them "Halls" up here.
Well, yes. But a "hall" in that sense is the entire building. Do we have a name other than "flat" for the suite of rooms around a landing or a corridor or a kitchen? Maybe we don't.

Why would we need another word? Flat is what it is.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Ogiginally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
A social linguist acquaintance confirms this dating. She has just finished a splendid academic paper on the use of "absolutely" as an emphatic positive response, dating it to 1991
I was using it in that sense when I was at college in the late 70's.

M.

I will pass this on to her, as she is jonesing for citable references. Could you let me know the college or the region, or as specifically as possible while respecting the Ship's anonymity rule?

Posted by St. Stephen the Stoned (# 9841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:

I grew up in Portsmouth in a somewhat oversheltered home, and when I when to secondary school and a girl demanded 'jew wannasmay mayf?'
I struggled to respond immediately.
A peanut to the first correct translation.
clue, I had accidently bumped into her in the crowded corridor.

Knowing the lack of consonants in that part of the world, especially in the I' O' Wi', I think she was asking if you wanted a smack in the mouth.

Salted, please, not dry roasted.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'
I can't think what else you would call them. Housemate possibly - but only if you lived in a house. 'Flat' is standard UK for accommodation which is part of a larger building.

'Flat', which in EnZed can be a stand alone house or an apartment, is not used in Oz, except occasionally of an apartment. To share accomodation here is to live in a sharehouse, and therefore to be housemates. Which I have never become used to.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Nobody said 'half five' before the sixties.
Late 50s, in my recollection.

Possibly earlier than that in Yorkshire. But as I am only mid 50s vintage myself I can't be definitive on that, other than hearing the older generation use the term as I grew up.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

Is the term "handbag" ever used in America? I've just finished reading a book where I was amazed by how much stuff the heroine kept in her "purse". I could only make sense of it by assuming that this was another bit of cross-Pond-confusion.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

It seems to me that "purse" is now somewhat old-fashioned now. The bright young things carry handbags when they carry anything other than a phone.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

All the ladies I know carry purses.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

The purse is what most women keep coins and notes in, and it's inside the handbag, over here. I can't remember what they call the purse in America.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Halo:
I was surprised how many people in the UK knew what I meant by 'flatmate'
I can't think what else you would call them. Housemate possibly - but only if you lived in a house. 'Flat' is standard UK for accommodation which is part of a larger building.
'Flat', which in EnZed can be a stand alone house or an apartment, is not used in Oz, except occasionally of an apartment. To share accomodation here is to live in a sharehouse, and therefore to be housemates. Which I have never become used to.

Eh?

Your Oz must be different from my Oz. People talk about "flats" all the time. More often than "apartments" I would say.

PS Australia definitely does have its regionalisms, as well. Some things vary depending on which state you're from. One of the ones I've heard about is what I call a 'bubbler' = a drinking fountain. Apparently in other parts of the country the term is completely different.

[ 09. October 2012, 13:53: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The purse is what most women keep coins and notes in, and it's inside the handbag, over here. I can't remember what they call the purse in America.

Wallet.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Heh. Based on the 'Australian Word Map'...

bubbler = NSW and ACT, some in southern Queensland

bubble taps = some parts of Victoria

drinking taps = Melbourne

drinking fountain = Perth

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Heh. Based on the 'Australian Word Map'...

bubbler = NSW and ACT, some in southern Queensland

And in Wisconsin, in the US.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
drinking fountain = Perth

What the civilized folks in Minnesota call it. [Biased]

Posted by BessHiggs (# 15176) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Heh. Based on the 'Australian Word Map'...

bubbler = NSW and ACT, some in southern Queensland
And in Wisconsin, in the US.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
drinking fountain = Perth
What the civilized folks in Minnesota call it.

It's a bubbler in Mass. too, although, it is pronounced bubblah. One of the first things I took back when I moved out of New England was my r's. I still talk like a Yankee sometimes, but at least I drive a car rather than a cah, and run a bar rather than a bah.

On the topic of British, or British sounding, accents: My business partner is from NZ, and while his accent has become very americanized, he still sounds foreign and apparently very sexy to the local female population. It's like catnip. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Augustine the Aleut, I am pm-ing you.

M.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
It's a bubbler in Mass. too, although, it is pronounced bubblah.

And how else would any sensible 21st-century person say it?

Rhoticism is so early-modern! [Two face]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Heh. Based on the 'Australian Word Map'...

bubbler = NSW and ACT, some in southern Queensland
And in Wisconsin, in the US.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
drinking fountain = Perth
What the civilized folks in Minnesota call it.

Yes, apparently it actually comes from patches of the USA and made its way over here, as it's in fact a trademark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubbler

Although it would be fascinating to know exactly how it managed to hop from Wisconsin all the way to Sydney.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although it would be fascinating to know exactly how it managed to hop from Wisconsin all the way to Sydney.

Qantas.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Although it would be fascinating to know exactly how it managed to hop from Wisconsin all the way to Sydney.
Qantas.

Ah yes. They've been flying direct to eastern Wisconsin for decades!

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

It wasn't a single hop.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

We call them drinking fountains in the UK - well we did when we had them in schools.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

AIUI a bubbler is a drinking fountain where the water goes straight up and then falls back down; it's a specific type of drinking fountain.

Moo

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
We call them drinking fountains in the UK - well we did when we had them in schools.

And parks (probably abandoned even earlier).

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It wasn't a single hop.

Where did it touch down along the way?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I think it might have flown Southwest to LAX.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

And stopped in Phoenix, of course.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Bubbler is a new one on me. Drinking fountains, water fountains (And we still have them in schools. Kids use them to fill up their water bottles).

On the subject of water, carbonated water. I used to call it club soda, but have discovered that soda water works just as well and is understood worldwide. Except in the US of A.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

I don't know where you get to in the USA, Pete. Here if I ask for soda water at a restaurant they know exactly what I mean.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
mousethief: I don't know where you get to in the USA, Pete. Here if I ask for soda water at a restaurant they know exactly what I mean.

Maybe PeteC could point out where he went in the USA on this map.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I think it might have flown Southwest to LAX.

Interesting. Didn't try talking about 'bubblers' down in southern California...

I did have a lot of fun with my friends and their extended family, though, occasionally mystifying them with my speech patterns. The best one was when I said something about a 'power point'. I think I should have said 'outlet'. Clearly they wondered why on earth I was talking about Microsoft software.

The other gem was my friend's excited adoption of the term 'witch's hats'. Previously she had called those cones used to mark roadworks 'orange pylons', which I found utterly bizarre (orange, yes, but pylons?!?). She decided that 'witch's hats' was far more evocative. Don't know if she stuck with it. There could be a small patch of southern California where that term has really caught on!

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

They do look like witches' hats! We call them "traffic cones." "Pylon" seems a bit overstated.

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The best one was when I said something about a 'power point'. I think I should have said 'outlet'. Clearly they wondered why on earth I was talking about Microsoft software.

Now that would be a (plug) socket where I come from.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
AIUI a bubbler is a drinking fountain where the water goes straight up and then falls back down; it's a specific type of drinking fountain.

What other type of drinking fountain is there? One where the water goes up, and doesn't come back down?
[Confused]

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

Where it doesn't go straight up. If you get the angle.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

You mean it has the dreaded droop?

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
mousethief: I don't know where you get to in the USA, Pete. Here if I ask for soda water at a restaurant they know exactly what I mean.
Maybe PeteC could point out where he went in the USA on this map.

It is awkward to pinpoint - I was on an US airline between Ottawa and Charlotte (forget state, but big naval base) for a library conference. Layover in Philadelphia. They called it seltzer water. I tried various other permutations, but we finally clicked on carbonated water.

eta - this was over 20 years ago.

[ 11. October 2012, 20:49: Message edited by: PeteC ]

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Now, is "spot on" an idiom of British origin? I heard a fundy type preacher with a Texas drawl use it today.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Maybe PeteC could point out where he went in the USA on this map.

Strange the change of usage at the Arizona/New Mexico border. I'd have expected consistent use within the Navajo Nation.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I think the most vivid "idiom problem" I've ever heard about it is something that wouldn't be a problem nowadays, because it had to do with the 5.25-inch and 3.5-inch disks we used to use for computer files.

In Australia, both kinds would be called a "floppy disk".

Now, over in South Africa, they not unreasonably observed that when 3.5-inch disks came along, they weren't actually 'floppy' like the 5.25-inch ones. So they called the new kind of disk a 'stiffy'.

Unfortunately, here in Australia a 'stiffy' is a term for a male's genitalia demonstrating his arousal... So needless to say, in the story I heard, when a new male South African employee asked a female office assistant about getting him a stiffy, it did NOT go down well...

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
They do look like witches' hats! We call them "traffic cones." "Pylon" seems a bit overstated.

We call them bollards if we're being formal. Otherwise witches' hats, and I may have heard traffic cones too.
One appeared on top of a very tall pine tree near here – not sure whether it's been brought down yet, let alone how it got up there.

I recall being told that 'half five' meant 5.30 in the south and 4.30 in Scotland – or vice versa. Any info on that?

I thought galoshes had ceased to be worn – here anyway. And we don't have wellies, we have gumboots.

We heard a newsreader recently advising motorists to take an alternate (should have been alternative, of course) 'rowt' because of road works. On the other hand, we do call our internet connector a 'rowter' and haven't heard it called 'rooter'.

How far has the word 'shout' meaning to treat travelled? Back in the day (or I would say 'Back in the days when I was doing my OE')it was understood that if a Kiwi in an English pub said 'I'll shout' people expected a bellow unless that they knew it meant the friendly fellow was going to pay for a round. Some time later it was noticed in English TV shows as a regular expression.

GG

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Maybe PeteC could point out where he went in the USA on this map.
Strange the change of usage at the Arizona/New Mexico border. I'd have expected consistent use within the Navajo Nation.

Maybe the Dine word for soda/pop/coke threw them and they decided to stick with English answers. [Biased]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Where it doesn't go straight up. If you get the angle.

Both of the ones on the right hand side of the Wikipedia page are angled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubbler

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:

I recall being told that 'half five' meant 5.30 in the south and 4.30 in Scotland – or vice versa. Any info on that?

News to me: I've lived in all four countries of Britain and never heard half five used to mean anything other than the mid point between five and six o'clock.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I tried to order fruit salad in USA to follow my dinner, only to find that I should have ordered fruit cocktail to eat before my dinner. Also, I found that the entree is the main course in USA whereas it precedes the main course where I live. All very confusing for the traaveller.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I tried to order fruit salad in USA to follow my dinner, only to find that I should have ordered fruit cocktail to eat before my dinner.

Wha..????

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

Unfortunately, here in Australia a 'stiffy' is a term for a male's genitalia demonstrating his arousal... So needless to say, in the story I heard, when a new male South African employee asked a female office assistant about getting him a stiffy, it did NOT go down well...

There is, or was, a similar misunderstanding between Ozzies and Brits about Durex. There it means adhesive tape (what we would call sellotape); here it means contraceptive.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

And rubbers - a rubber here is usually referred to as an eraser elsewhere. Sharing an office with Aussies was fun.

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Now, is "spot on" an idiom of British origin? I heard a fundy type preacher with a Texas drawl use it today.

I think so, I would have said, definitely, spot on.. but as a result of this thread I'm no longer so sure of where anything came from!

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

Further to the subject of wellies, there is another significant (in the UK at least) colour that hasn't been mentioned. Yellow wellies are traditionally associated with the yachty and boaty types, and has connotations of poshness (because the well-heeled are more likely to own substantial boats). Consequently yellow welly imagery gets used by organisations such as the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution, a largely volunteer-based charity which runs lifeboats and search-and-rescue services) and "the yellow welly brigade" shorthand for the boating community (especially on the south coast of England).

On the subject of matters nautical, although there may be considerable exchange of pronunciation (especially where picked up from TV or movies), one UK/USA difference I can't imagine changing is "buoy". I believe in the USA this is pronounced "boo-ee", which to this Briton just sounds weird. In the UK it is pronounced the same as "boy" (or the first syllable of "buoyant", which I think has pretty much the same pronunciation both sides of the pond).

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

The New York Times must have been following our discussion -- they've just published an article, Americans Are Barmy Over Britishisms.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Americans, according to the above,

quote:
absorb the Queen’s English through televised imports like “Ramsay’s Kitchen Nightmares”

[ 12. October 2012, 13:39: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
The New York Times must have been following our discussion -- they've just published an article, Americans Are Barmy Over Britishisms.

Boy is he a derisive little snob or what? There is no good reason for an American to say "cheers" or "fortnight" -- it must be because you are pretentious or lazy or stupid or a puppy-kicker. What an arse. Sorry, ass.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Tally ho? You'd get odd looks using that over here in most contexts - it's from hunting which has never been a particularly mass market sport.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
The New York Times must have been following our discussion -- they've just published an article, Americans Are Barmy Over Britishisms.
Boy is he a derisive little snob or what? There is no good reason for an American to say "cheers" or "fortnight" -- it must be because you are pretentious or lazy or stupid or a puppy-kicker. What an arse. Sorry, ass.

Perhaps we should all learn a bit of Xhosa and observe his reaction...

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think the most vivid "idiom problem" I've ever heard about it is something that wouldn't be a problem nowadays, because it had to do with the 5.25-inch and 3.5-inch disks we used to use for computer files.

In Australia, both kinds would be called a "floppy disk".

Now, over in South Africa, they not unreasonably observed that when 3.5-inch disks came along, they weren't actually 'floppy' like the 5.25-inch ones. So they called the new kind of disk a 'stiffy'.

Unfortunately, here in Australia a 'stiffy' is a term for a male's genitalia demonstrating his arousal... So needless to say, in the story I heard, when a new male South African employee asked a female office assistant about getting him a stiffy, it did NOT go down well...

Now *that's* what I call a boner.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

See, I had NO idea that "fortnight" wasn't universal!

Whereas some of the others I recognise as Britishms, precisely because they didn't travel to Australia.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

A few years back I was teaching some German students, and they asked me to explain where "fortnight" came from. Having never thought about it, I did my best, and could come up with nothing better than a fortified / strengthened / extra long night. Later I asked colleagues in the English department, who looked at me pityingly, and pointed out it was a contraction of fourteen nights!

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

In old novels I have also come across sennight, meaning a week.

Moo

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

Now, over in South Africa, they not unreasonably observed that when 3.5-inch disks came along, they weren't actually 'floppy' like the 5.25-inch ones. So they called the new kind of disk a 'stiffy'.

Unfortunately, here in Australia a 'stiffy' is a term for a male's genitalia demonstrating his arousal... So needless to say, in the story I heard, when a new male South African employee asked a female office assistant about getting him a stiffy, it did NOT go down well...

As well as the 'male genitalia' meaning, in the UK 'stiffy' is also a slang term (although not widely used) for an invitation to a formal, usually posh, event - so called because the invitations are sent on stiff card.

It is a common, but unfortunate, sign of vanity to display a stiffy on the mantelpiece.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
It is a common, but unfortunate, sign of vanity to display a stiffy on the mantelpiece.

Especially using the previous definition!
[Eek!]

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:

On the topic of British, or British sounding, accents: My business partner is from NZ, and while his accent has become very americanized, he still sounds foreign and apparently very sexy to the local female population. It's like catnip.

Or "kitnup" as people here pronounce it.

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