Thread: Revisiting the Alpha Course Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Let me begin by saying I am uncomfortable with the teachings of evangelical churches. I know many Christians aren't but I thought it best to say at the start where I stand.

Now I have said that...

I do believe Christianity is worth 'catching' and a good way of getting it is through informal friendly groups which give space to tackle questions, and provide friendship and support.

Now it seems to me that in part that is what Alpha is about.

Only in part, I know, because there is also the distinctive atonement theology, anti gay, subservient view of women, inerrancy of scripture stuff... To name some.

But I am wondering if alpha has been revisited by those of a more open and liberal persuasion and has it worked, or have they steered clear of it because of its baggage.
 

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Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :
 
Don't they do Emmasus (or how ever you spell it) instead?
 

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Posted by Horatio Harumph (# 10855) on :
 
I am a reasonably liberal, very open Christian, who also attends an evangelical Anglican church that is part of the 'New Wine network' and runs Alpha on a regular basis.

I dont think everyone is enamoured with Alpha, and although I guess some of that may be to do with stance and view point, some of it isnt.

My experience of Alpha is poor. Very poor. My mothers experience, who went to the same one as me (I invited her, alas ) was also very poor, to the extent of it actually putting her more off God/off 'the church' than ever before.

Some of it do with Alpha itself, and some of it to do with the fact that both times I have done it, it seems more full of people who are already subscribed to the Christian faith, and a particular way of thinking, than not. Which just leads to an uncomfortable 'odd one out' feeling. It has also been full of people who think it ok to say out loud their judgements which have a hugely bad effect on people. For example my mother was chastised during one session for being remarried. Told she would be forgiven by God if she said sorry to Him. Her response was 'but I'm not sorry'.
It didn't go down well.

I'm not a fan of Alpha full stop, but have met lots of evangelical's who perhaps one would think would subscribe to it who are also not fans.

Its hit and miss to me.
 

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
I get the impression Emmaus is more of a study group while Alpha it seems to me attracts because of the size of the groups and the way it forms community. Having said that I know Alpha themselves would say there is more to it than that.
And it is in part that which concerns me - and Horatio H.

Let me share a few thoughts about revising Alpha my way!

Yes weekly meetings in a relaxed atmosphere for say 6 to 8 weeks. Each week similar structure -friendly welcome, introduction of topic, meal and chat over topic, some challenge, quiet time / prayer,,relaxed time of chat.
Some time away among it.

Some basic rules, such as we don't confront people like Horatio's mum with our moral opinions.

Maybe that's too faraway from alpha. However, it does seem to me that something like this to communicate what we are about to enquirers is a good thing.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
The patterns - meetings, meals etc. - are probably a good approach

The material on the other hand, from what I understand, is, shall we say, rather unsophisticated.
 

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The patterns - meetings, meals etc. - are probably a good approach

The material on the other hand, from what I understand, is, shall we say, rather unsophisticated.

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Indeed Karl, the trouble is liberal sophistication is difficult to communicate ina snappy attractive way

Part of the problem is that i I do not want to push black and white answers to complex questions, and I suspect the alpha approach does favour a direct Bible says answer.
 

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Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
For example my mother was chastised during one session for being remarried. Told she would be forgiven by God if she said sorry to Him. Her response was 'but I'm not sorry'.
It didn't go down well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
Indeed Karl, the trouble is liberal sophistication is difficult to communicate ina snappy attractive way

Part of the problem is that i I do not want to push black and white answers to complex questions, and I suspect the alpha approach does favour a direct Bible says answer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Horatio Harumph

I've never done Alpha, but I've read sociologial studies of it, and discussed it with other people, and your experience matches some of what I've heard. Because the vast majority of participants are already Christians, it's bound to be difficult for those who come in from the periphery, or with no church background at all. The only way to resolve this is for groups to be formed based on the profiles of the different potential participants, rather than putting everyone who applies into the next programme coming up. Presumably you need good group leaders as well; they shouldn't let group members insult each other!

Why don't you, as a 'reasonably liberal, very open Christian', explore more liberal alternatives to Alpha? You're apparently attending a church that's somewhat less liberal than yourself, but there might be others in the congregation who'd like to start something that's less rigid or dogmatic than Alpha. Alpha has the brand recognition, but it clearly fails to meet the needs of many churches.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
It would be interesting to know what sociological thinking is on alpha and how it works.

I didn't realise that most of the participants were Christians already.min fact I though alpha style churches used alpha to convert.

What interests me is the apparently successful way an alpha course is run.

What makes a successful one?

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A good book on Alpha is Stephen Hunt,
'The Alpha Initiative: Evangelism in a Post-Christian Age'. I have an article of his here. The author is agnostic, but comes across as fair.

He says that Alpha is an evangelistic tool that's aimed at seekers and zones in on the contemporary longing for community and 'belonging before believing'. It has charismatic origins, and though it's practioners aren't all charismatic, it's success highlights the growing influence of the charismatic movement.

The author did some research in the UK in 1999 on whether Alpha was winning converts. He found that 70% of participants came to Alpha via their churches, i.e. they were already churchgoers. A questionnaire found that only 5% of participants saw themselves as 'outside the faith'. 14% were using Alpha as a refresher course. 66% wanted to deepen their faith and increase their knowledge of Christian doctrines. Asking if they'd become Christians as a result of taking the course, 77% said they were already Christians. Of the 17% who said they had converted, most were already in the church.

Socially and demographically Alpha tends to reach the kinds of people who are already churchgoers (e.g. white middle class people, with many retired people in the mix). Despite the heavy advertising, most people who attend do so because they know someone who attends the church in question, not because of the adverts.

The author also looks at Alpha in terms of globalisation, routinisation, customisation, burn-out, etc.

His conclusion was that 'the net effect of Alpha is to rejuvenate evangelically-minded churches and the spiritual life of their members' (which has often been the case for previous evangelistic efforts) and to spread charismatic Christianity among British churches.

Those are a few of the insights I have, mostly from the article, but in his book he talks about actual courses that he participated in for the purposes of research! Those stories were quite interesting, if I remember correctly.

[ 09. October 2012, 23:08: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :
 
I have been reading Steven Hunt's 'The Alpha Experience'. Well worth reading. He points out that, except in prisons, the majority of attenders are already Christian, and that very few 'Aplpha Courses' actually follow the format, except fot the meal- or at least some food element.

This mirrors my experience. Two churches I have been involved in decided to run Alpha, and both redesigned the course.
 

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Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 
I think one problem that often occurs is:

* Church decides to run an Alpha course

* Congregation is encouraged to invite lots of non-Christians

* Very few people actually do, because most people intensely dislike evangelising in practice even if they are theoretically in favour of it

* But they feel vaguely guilty about it so they go along to the Alpha course *themselves*

* besides, the church is worried about the prospect of only having 2 and a half people on the course so they encourage Christians to come along "to brush up on the basics" as the course has it

* Hence any non-Christians who do come along are massively outnumbered by the Christians

* And it then becomes difficult to have the sort of "any question allowed" discussion that Alpha promises in the blurb and (to be fair) is intended to generate.
 

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Posted by Cedd (# 8436) on :
 
I would probably put myself somewhere on the 'liberal Catholic' part of the spectrum and certainly have no truck with much of conservative evagelicalism. However I have run Alpha in two different places with largely positive results, in terms of giving people a 'way in' to discussing issues of faith.

For me the most important lessons were about not being hidebound by the material and being committed to really allowing any question to be discussed honestly. My most negative experience was on the 'Holy Spirit' away day which was rather hijacked by some more evangelical brethren and who decided to try and force people into speaking in tongues. However, that was not strictly the fault of Alpha and I would be prepared to use it again, albeit with a different leadership team.

It is a good tool, but should not be allowed to become the master.
 

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Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :
 
I'd be interested in some more up to date research - Hunt's work sounds interesting but it's over a decade old. I know churches that use Alpha as a membership course as much as an evangelistic tool which goes some way to accounting for the volume of church goers accessing it.

Alpha's beeing adapted by many churches to reflect local distinctives. The basic format is a good one for drawing in people who are interested in exploring the Christian faith - most of the people on the last Alpha-style course I attended were already going to my church, but hadn't decided if Christianity was for them. Simply saying that people attending Alpha were already attending church doesn't say anything about their commitment to Christianity per se. Perhaps Hunt's research explores this.

Alpha's been a very effective form for evangelism for a particular demographic in a particular kind of church. The most powerful aspect of it in my experience is the way it opens up some great conversations between hosts and guests. That's where the real business of Alpha is done - the teaching input provides a foundation for those conversations.
 

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Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :
 
X posted with Cedd. I'm from the other end of spectrum (evo charis) but agree entirely with Cedd's assessment. And glad you found Alpha useful
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
Let me begin by saying I am uncomfortable with the teachings of evangelical churches. I know many Christians aren't but I thought it best to say at the start where I stand.

Now I have said that...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ramarius:

Alpha's beeing adapted by many churches to reflect local distinctives. The basic format is a good one for drawing in people who are interested in exploring the Christian faith - most of the people on the last Alpha-style course I attended were already going to my church, but hadn't decided if Christianity was for them. Simply saying that people attending Alpha were already attending church doesn't say anything about their commitment to Christianity per se.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cedd:
Coming from a non-charismatic non-evo perspective my biggest problem was certainly the material used for the 'Holy Spirit' away day / weekend.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cedd:
Coming from a non-charismatic non-evo perspective my biggest problem was certainly the material used for the 'Holy Spirit' away day / weekend.

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I did Alpha with a MOTR CofE church that actually had the guts and good sense to tone down the away-weekend. They did a session based around confession instead. I still found it creepy and didn't join in fully. But even so, that weekend was a turning point, and I came away from it a Christian, having started it as a skeptic.

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quote:

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... I am uncomfortable with the teachings of evangelical churches.
....... there is also the distinctive atonement theology, anti gay, subservient view of women, inerrancy of scripture stuff... To name some.........

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

Evangelicals are the Ship's pariahs, there is permanent open season on them, and you can say things about them which would get you thrown overboard if they were said about any other tradition.

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Interesting POV! Mindless simplistic stereotyping springs to mind.
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Just to chime in… I ran several Alpha course at HTB under the direction of the Alpha Apostles and HTB Nobility. I suppose like all of these courses, it's a mixed bag. As has been mentioned, the meal plus chat is a good mix. Theologically it is rather wooly *in places*, but you can change it--no matter what the Alpha apparatchiks say. There is too much emphasis on the (unsupported) inerrancy of the Bible, though that is not a problem with the Alpha Course, per se, but rather part of the evangelical tradition(s). The next area to consider carefully is the *very* strong emphasis on the conversion 'experience'. It's built into the talks and an explicit expectation.Like so much charo-evo stuff it is very 'event' orientated. The Holy Spirit section is a mixture of orthodox teachings and the New Age movement that came into the evangelical movement (at least in the UK) primarily though John Wimber and his followers. As a result, there is a lot of talk about 'power' and getting 'power' and so on. The New Age stuff (NB, the Dutch Reformed Church has been very critical of the New Age/Kundalini aspect of this movement; so it's not some liberal conspiracy).

The other questions you ask--which are good questions--are about 'success'. The Alpha Course is supposed be a talking shop (discuss the meaning of life, etc.) which it *can* be if you let it. Alas, most people who run cannot keep their mouths shut and try to offer answers to questions of those on the course. In Alpha boot camp you are (wisely) told not to do this. So, despite all my criticisms, it isn't fair to blame the Alpha Course for that.

I would not, in a million years, do or run an Alpha Course again. However, I am in a very negative and post-evangelical phase right now. I can look back and see the flimsiness and haphazardness of it all. Nicky G. assures the congo about the importance of orthodoxy and then tells them to channel their powers… These are not bad people at all, just mistaken.

So… do run * something*! Maybe an Alpha Course that has had its doctrinal compass reset or some other course.

Best of luck!

K.
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Another big (and I mean big) problem is heavy reliance on testimonies. I can remember one bloke that was regularly trotted out to give his Alpha testimony about how he had been living rough and on drugs and then he did an Alpha Course and went back to school and did his A levels and got a first! We later discovered it was made up, at least in part; but that's what you get when you take people of a certain type an emphasise the 'show'. You can guarantee exaggerations. Yet again, it's all part of the new paradigm and cannot be changed.

K.
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
For example my mother was chastised during one session for being remarried. Told she would be forgiven by God if she said sorry to Him. Her response was 'but I'm not sorry'.
It didn't go down well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:
For example my mother was chastised during one session for being remarried. Told she would be forgiven by God if she said sorry to Him. Her response was 'but I'm not sorry'.
It didn't go down well.

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That is terrible. That is the opposite of what the Alpha course is supposed to be.

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Not sure about 'supposed'. I have seen three TV documentaries about Alpha. On each one, with different punters, gay men were told to repent and chose to leave the course instead, making many of the straight punters very uncomfortable and some of them leaving in solidarity.

[ 10. October 2012, 15:27: Message edited by: leo ]
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Yes Leo, you are right about that. 'Lifestyle choice' [sic] was the HTB phrase…

K.
 

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Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :
 
This link is to a page on my web site which is about the Alpha course. It says something about 'four years ago', but actually it's about ten now. If I'd had the experience of forums then that I have now, I would have written in a more assertive way, I think.

Two years ago, I thought it would be interesting to see how another local church ran theirs, so joined. I went as a sceptic (and made this quite clear) , but only went for three meetings, as the Vicar, lovely man though he was and who said he welcomed challenging questions, really had no idea how anyone could feel complete without God. He could see, however, that I am a very well-adjusted, happy, confident kind of person and seemed slightly puzzled by this! Well, there you are, that's my genetic make-up!

On the first course, I was the only sceptic, the others were all members of the church; on the second, there was a man there who was very interested in my scepticism and followed up my questions, but I do not know what happened thereafter. There were on this second time only five, including the Vicar.

This thread is most interesting to read, as there are so many questioning posts.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ramarius:
I'd be interested in some more up to date research - Hunt's work sounds interesting but it's over a decade old.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Felafool:
Percy B wrote:

quote:

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... I am uncomfortable with the teachings of evangelical churches.
....... there is also the distinctive atonement theology, anti gay, subservient view of women, inerrancy of scripture stuff... To name some.........

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Well, my generalisation and stereotype monitor blew a fuse. Don't you realise that 'evangelical' churches have as broad a spectrum of beliefs and theologies as 'liberal' churches do?

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quote:

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Originally posted by SusanDoris:
This link is to a page on my web site which is about the Alpha course. It says something about 'four years ago', but actually it's about ten now. If I'd had the experience of forums then that I have now, I would have written in a more assertive way, I think.

Two years ago, I thought it would be interesting to see how another local church ran theirs, so joined. I went as a sceptic (and made this quite clear) , but only went for three meetings, as the Vicar, lovely man though he was and who said he welcomed challenging questions, really had no idea how anyone could feel complete without God. He could see, however, that I am a very well-adjusted, happy, confident kind of person and seemed slightly puzzled by this! Well, there you are, that's my genetic make-up!

On the first course, I was the only sceptic, the others were all members of the church; on the second, there was a man there who was very interested in my scepticism and followed up my questions, but I do not know what happened thereafter. There were on this second time only five, including the Vicar.

This thread is most interesting to read, as there are so many questioning posts.

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With the greatest of respect SusanDoris why exactly did you go? I wouldn't attend a secular humanist gathering just out of interest, as I already know enough about their message to know it isn't for me.

EDIT:
No, skip that - I should read your link first (and probably fume over it!)

[ 10. October 2012, 20:17: Message edited by: Mark Betts ]
 

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Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 

quote:

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from SusanDoris' link
'What you mean is I'm a disruptive influence!'

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quote:

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Originally posted by Komensky:
The New Age stuff (NB, the Dutch Reformed Church has been very critical of the New Age/Kundalini aspect of this movement; so it's not some liberal conspiracy).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:

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from SusanDoris' link
'What you mean is I'm a disruptive influence!'

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But you WERE a disruptive influence!

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As far as I can get from Alpha blurb, there is no limit on kinds of questions an attendee may bring up. If SusanDoris had gone to the program with the intent to hog all the discussion time, that would be different story. But I doubt that was the case knowing her posting style. If a Christian program for educating people about the basics of the faith can't deal with polite but assertive questions, the leaders need to go back to the drawing board. Use a format that can handle tough questions but still keep the program moving. Alpha is mainly meant to evangelize non-Christians, along with giving continuing Christians an opportunity to brush-up up on various aspects of their faith. SusanDoris is a non-Christian. She was interested. As far as they knew she might decide to convert.

But you win some, you lose some.
 

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
So it seems that what helps alpha work, and so can be reworked in more open settings is:

Food and fellowship

Friendly welcome

Atmosphere where there is some clear talking, and allowing any questions

Encouragement of friendship

Regular meetings, short term....

Any other ingredients?
 

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Posted by Ramarius (# 16551) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
So it seems that what helps alpha work, and so can be reworked in more open settings is:

Food and fellowship

Friendly welcome

Atmosphere where there is some clear talking, and allowing any questions

Encouragement of friendship

Regular meetings, short term....

Any other ingredients?

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Powerful accounts of how becoming a Christian has changed for the better the life experience of a wide variety of people. Since Christianity is by definition a life-changing experience you really can't run a course exploring the Christian faith without being able to answer the question "So if I take the plunge and commit my life to Christ, what might be the practical result?"
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
What happened to Mum Harrumph is appalling. If that was a group leader or helper, they have completely misunderstood the approach. If it was a guest, then I would hope a group leader would chime in and try to smooth ruffled feathers.

What many Christians who lead/help on Alpha find difficult is that they are not supposed to give 'answers' - the point is for people to discover their own. OK, so there is a certain set of assumptions behind this - if your group members all decide to become goat-sacrificing satanists by the end of the course, then maybe someone should have said something at some point ...

I have helped on dozens of courses run by our church and others - sometimes jointly by a group of churches including RC, Baptist, Anglican and independent churches. It's not for everyone, certainly, but it has much more appeal than the 'middle class dinner party' stereotype. We have had Alpha in a gym, a library, a pub and a curry house. We have almost always had a majority with no church background, and they have ranged from company directors to homeless alcoholics (in the same group, no less...)

I would say that if you are not comfortable with the material, the 'eat, listen, discuss' format would work with many sources and could be a good one to try.
 

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Eat, listen, discuss is a helpful reminder, thanks, Gill.

And yes too a sharing of personal story. The problem there is from a more liberal position the story isn't always as exciting.

I guess too careful ambiance and preparation pays off.
 

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Posted by TurquoiseTastic (# 8978) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
I know the OP is about Alpha, and the Emmaus course has also been mentioned. But there is a third option: "Christianity Explored"

This is a non-charismatic course, where (they say) they differ from Alpha because they believe in Hell whereas Alpha doesn't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
I guess these different courses, and I have not heard of Christianity Explored (a rather 80s title?), but am I right in thinking each is from a slightly differing school of thought.

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• Alpha = charismatic evangelical
• Christianity Explored = conservative evangelical (closed)
• Emmaus = more liberal (open) evangelical

quote:

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There was mention of a Beta course, but maybe that was a spoof.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

• Alpha = charismatic evangelical
• Christianity Explored = conservative evangelical (closed)
• Emmaus = more liberal (open) evangelical

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quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Beta says it's standalone, not just a follow up - they suggest it works as a Lent group too.

You've also got initiatives like Beer and Bible studies

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quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
There was mention of a Beta course, but maybe that was a spoof.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Komensky:
Another big (and I mean big) problem is heavy reliance on testimonies. I can remember one bloke that was regularly trotted out to give his Alpha testimony about how he had been living rough and on drugs and then he did an Alpha Course and went back to school and did his A levels and got a first! We later discovered it was made up, at least in part; but that's what you get when you take people of a certain type an emphasise the 'show'. You can guarantee exaggerations. Yet again, it's all part of the new paradigm and cannot be changed.

K.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ramarius:

Powerful accounts of how becoming a Christian has changed for the better the life experience of a wide variety of people. Since Christianity is by definition a life-changing experience you really can't run a course exploring the Christian faith without being able to answer the question "So if I take the plunge and commit my life to Christ, what might be the practical result?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
There was mention of a Beta course, but maybe that was a spoof.

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Perhaps you were thinking of this Beta course?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
With the greatest of respect SusanDoris why exactly did you go? I wouldn't attend a secular humanist gathering just out of interest, as I already know enough about their message to know it isn't for me.

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The first time because I had recently joined a Humanist group and because I had happened to meet a friend (ex-colleague teacher) whom i hadn't seen for years an we'd had a lovely chat. She was always on the evangelical side of things. She told me about the Alpha course and asked if I would come. I asked her to check with the pastor first and so that was cleared!

Well, I like to go to meetings about things I don't know enough about, since only then can I know for sure that I was right!!! No, seriously, I love to hear about others' views. And there's nothing better than a good challenge to one's opinions.

quote:

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EDIT:No, skip that - I should read your link first (and probably fume over it!)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:

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from SusanDoris' link
'What you mean is I'm a disruptive influence!'

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But you WERE a disruptive influence!

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No! From then on, it was really concentrated discussion. The pastor and his wife and J had never before faced the kind of challenge that I presented and only good feellings were left at the end of each session as we all went away to prepare for the following week! I know they enjoyed it as much as I did. the pastor still says a cheery helo to me when he sees me occasionally.

[ 11. October 2012, 15:07: Message edited by: SusanDoris ]
 

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Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
Hmm seems I am right in being confused about Beta. One of those seems a spoof the other seems a creation of that particular church for a fellow up - and good luck to them for doing it!

But then our friend google produced a link to:

Beta course

Which seems interesting, but as no one here has mentioned it I wonder if it is actually still a going concern.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
As far as I can get from Alpha blurb, there is no limit on kinds of questions an attendee may bring up. If SusanDoris had gone to the program with the intent to hog all the discussion time, that would be different story. But I doubt that was the case knowing her posting style.

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quote:

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If a Christian program for educating people about the basics of the faith can't deal with polite but assertive questions, the leaders need to go back to the drawing board. Use a format that can handle tough questions but still keep the program moving.

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quote:

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Alpha is mainly meant to evangelize non-Christians, along with giving continuing Christians an opportunity to brush-up up on various aspects of their faith. SusanDoris is a non-Christian. She was interested. As far as they knew she might decide to convert.

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I don't think they'd have taken bets on it though, especially as J had known me for about six years when we taught in the same Junior School.
 

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Posted by A.Pilgrim (# 15044) on :
 
I haven't been on an Alpha course myself, but I know someone who has. The general impression I have got is that a lot of what went on was an attempt at emotional manipulation so that those attending had 'an experience' on which to base their decision to get involved in the church or make some sort of commitment or conversion. This was particularly true of the 'Holy Spirit Awayday'.

The person concerned was throughly put off by this, and I can entirely understand - I'm pretty averse to the emotional manipulation that seems to pervade charismatic evangelicalism (especially the 'worship' - i.e. singing ). Which is rather a pity, speaking as a non-cessationist myself. I am entirely happy to believe that the Holy Spirit can work in power today, while being unhappy at any emotional manipulation that attempts to produce a pretence of this.

I guess that a lot depends on the church which runs the course, and how much they use 'Alpha' as a brand-name on which to hang their particular approach.
Angus
 

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Quick aside - what is a non- cessationist.

Back to thread:

I am still unclear about whether or not the alpha teaching material has a definite view on homosexuality, divorce, atonement...

I suppose related to that is does alpha have a particular aim of getting a person to a certain belief point, or is it actually much more open and free thinking than that.

[ 11. October 2012, 18:55: Message edited by: Percy B ]
 

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Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Percy B:
Quick aside - what is a non- cessationist.

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quote:

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Back to thread:

I am still unclear about whether or not the alpha teaching material has a definite view on homosexuality, divorce, atonement...

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quote:

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Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
I am entirely happy to believe that the Holy Spirit can work in power today, while being unhappy at any emotional manipulation that attempts to produce a pretence of this.

Angus

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
I disapprove of churches which are unthinkingly critical of evangelical doctrine running Alpha Courses. Alpha is an evangelistic course written by evangelicals for use by churches which believe in the doctrines that the course covers.

I would never take a liberal leaning course and crow-bar PSA and charismatic pneumatology into it. Firstly, it would be disrespectful to the people who devised the course and secondly it would be disingenuous to the people attending the course.

Liberal leaning Christians shouldn't run Alpha. They should put in the spade work and devise their own course. If you don't like heat get out of the kitchen.

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I noticed the acknowledgement that Alpha was predominantly for the middle classes, I'm wondering if this was the original intention of BETA (Alpha for the working class), but it failed to take off and evolved into what BETA is now?

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Alpha = charismatic evangelical
Christianity Explored = conservative evangelical (closed)
Emmaus = more liberal (open) evangelical

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
What's wrong with taking the worthwhile parts of study materials and discarding those we believe are in error? We do the same with music and with liturgy, and with the writings of the saints and heroes of the church. Where HTB have hit upon some good ideas, why shouldn't others use them to spread the Good News, even if not all of their ideas are good? I don't agree with everthing C. S. Lewis wrote, but I don't think it is wrong to use his work when it helps to spread the Gospel.

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
Well Nicky Gumble, Sandy Miller et al wrote the books, have the copyright, so it is (rightfully) up to them how their material is used.

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P – Personal Story / Testimony that Nicky Gumbel tells in the classic Alpha talk. These may be replaced with a live speaker’s personal story, or the speaker may tell the story about Nicky in the same way Nicky tells stories about others.
S – Is a Story that Nicky tells about someone else (about a friend or a story he heard or read about).
Q – Quotes are key to the talk to emphasise a point and to enable guests to engage and relate to a point made. There is now a way that people can seek permission to omit or replace quotes used in the original talks. A quote should be replaced with something equally effective to maintain the balance of teaching, story, and references to other information sources.

Key quotes will need approval to change (these will be identified by a comment in the left column). Please email publications@alpha.org with your request.

Text left untouched is the standard key message content of the Alpha talk.

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Emphasis added.

The point, I think, is this: Alpha is arguably an example of the McDonaldsisation of the Christianity. It is a brand. You can't sell burgers as McDonald's burgers if they're not McDonald's burgers. Similarly, you can't sell your theology as the Alpha Course if the theological content isn't Alpha theological content. Makes sense, I think.

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Copyright concerns the right to produce copies and derivative works. I can't see how it is relevant in this situation. Nor can I see how a matter of legal technicalities can inform a matter of ethics (or manners?) Would you mind expanding on your point?

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Originally posted by Percy B:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
I disapprove of churches which are unthinkingly critical of evangelical doctrine running Alpha Courses. Alpha is an evangelistic course written by evangelicals for use by churches which believe in the doctrines that the course covers.

I would never take a liberal leaning course and crow-bar PSA and charismatic pneumatology into it. Firstly, it would be disrespectful to the people who devised the course and secondly it would be disingenuous to the people attending the course.

Liberal leaning Christians shouldn't run Alpha. They should put in the spade work and devise their own course. If you don't like heat get out of the kitchen.

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while i can see your particular viewpoint I think that we can learn from one another and exchange good practice, even across theological divides.

Alpha has shown that a specific style of operating and running a christian group has merit. Being clear about what constitutes this style is helpful.

Excuse me - but what is PSA?

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Originally posted by Yerevan:

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I noticed the acknowledgement that Alpha was predominantly for the middle classes, I'm wondering if this was the original intention of BETA (Alpha for the working class), but it failed to take off and evolved into what BETA is now?

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I know this is purely anecdotal, but the two people I know who became Christians via Alpha are both very definitely working class, and are happy members of a very working class congregation and heavily involved in its work with the homeless, ex-offenders etc.

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Emphasis added.

The point, I think, is this: Alpha is arguably an example of the McDonaldsisation of the Christianity. It is a brand. You can't sell burgers as McDonald's burgers if they're not McDonald's burgers. Similarly, you can't sell your theology as the Alpha Course if the theological content isn't Alpha theological content. Makes sense, I think.

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Ah. My experience is of using the talks as is, and then picking up on areas of dispute with them in discussion afterwards.

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
While a healthy degree of critical engagement with what is preached is a good and healthy thing in a congregation, I would suggest that the negative spiritual formation engendered by your approach would, in the long term, do more harm than good in terms of attitudes to the Ministry of the Word.

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I don't consider offering alternative understandings of Christian doctrine to be negative. It's dishonest to imply that there is one version of Christian theology upon which everyone agrees, and to present a shiny homogenous package does a disservice to anyone coming to faith with a brain.
 

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Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :
 
Nicky Gumbel was fairly explicit when I heard him give the alpha course that his focus was on people becoming Christians, not really on what kind of Christian. He said that it doesn't matter so much from his point of view whether you are Catholic, Anglican, Methodist etc.

In my opinion he avoids some topics where there are obvious doctrinal differences in order to make the course suitable to a wider range of churches. So I don't see why he would mind people discussing whether they agreed with the talks or not.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm not suggesting that Nicky Gumbel is being disingenuous, moonlitdoor, I believe the guy to be genuinely eirenic - however, the very prescriptive tenor and content of the Alpha Course does indicate that he (and the other developers/initiators of Alpha) are expecting it to produce Christians in their own particular image.

I think daronmedway has a point when he suggests that liberal or non-charismatic evangelical Christians should put in the spade-work to develop their own material if they don't like Alpha - but it is equally true that such churches have taken on the Alpha model in all good faith only to discover that it has a particular agenda.

All the publicity material and blurb about Alpha suggests that it is an introduction to the Christian faith per se - rather than to a particular interpretation of that faith as practised by the HTBs and its look-a-likes.

Of course, any course of this kind is going to take on the characteristics of the particular tradition or grouping in which it was devised. But I suspect that RC or Orthodox examples would be explicit about the fact that they represent an RC or Orthodox 'take' on the issue and not, as Alpha does, purporting to be some kind of neutral, catch-all introduction to Christianity as a whole.

In practice, despite all the brand-guidelines and strictures to the contrary, I suspect that most churches (at least most sensible ones ) adapt the Alpha material in some way. It only takes a few disastrous 'Holy Spirit weekends' where people drop out because they think they've walked into a cult to cause organisers to back-pedal a bit.

Part of me wonders, though, whether the rather odd location of the 'Holy Spirit weekend' in the sequence of the course is an attempt to weed-out those unlikely to stay the course by upping the ante over that particular issue. Only people who are susceptible/open to this particular aspect are likely to stick around after that.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Stephen Hunt, the author mentioned above, describes Alpha as an example of both globalisation and localisation ('glocalisation'). It offers churches a famous brand name, standardisation, and national and an international track record; but those same churches also take the course and tweak it and adapt it. Even if they don't always do so consciously, the fact that churches all have a very different flavour, context, demographic, quality of leadership, etc. let alone theology, means that the course isn't going to be the same in each place.

But Alpha's been around for over 10 years now. No mainstream church can seriously say that the charismatic evangelical implications of Alpha came as a shock to them when they tried to run the course.
 

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Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
While a healthy degree of critical engagement with what is preached is a good and healthy thing in a congregation, I would suggest that the negative spiritual formation engendered by your approach would, in the long term, do more harm than good in terms of attitudes to the Ministry of the Word.

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I don't consider offering alternative understandings of Christian doctrine to be negative. It's dishonest to imply that there is one version of Christian theology upon which everyone agrees, and to present a shiny homogenous package does a disservice to anyone coming to faith with a brain.

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
If you don't like shiny homogenous packages then Alpha really isn't your thing I'm afraid. There's nothing wrong with theological debate but an evangelistic/catechistical course like Alpha may not be the most pastorally appropriate forum for theological controversy. In my experience Alpha Courses can easily be derailed by Christians who are more interested in showing off their theological sophistication by arguing the toss than humbly helping the unbelievers in the group discover the reality of Christ.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think daronmedway has a point when he suggests that liberal or non-charismatic evangelical Christians should put in the spade-work to develop their own material if they don't like Alpha - but it is equally true that such churches have taken on the Alpha model in all good faith only to discover that it has a particular agenda.

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Of course, any course of this kind is going to take on the characteristics of the particular tradition or grouping in which it was devised. But I suspect that RC or Orthodox examples would be explicit about the fact that they represent an RC or Orthodox 'take' on the issue and not, as Alpha does, purporting to be some kind of neutral, catch-all introduction to Christianity as a whole.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Nope, Alpha in a Catholic context still has the Holy Spirit weekend.

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

Back to thread:

I am still unclear about whether or not the alpha teaching material has a definite view on homosexuality, divorce, atonement...

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

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Originally posted by Percy B:

Back to thread:

I am still unclear about whether or not the alpha teaching material has a definite view on homosexuality, divorce, atonement...

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I don't know about Alpha, but Christianity Explored definitely does.

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erm, does it? I've done the CE course quite recently and don't even recall them being mentioned or discussed ... ?

(I keep editing to try and correct the coding issue, but I don't seem to be able to manage it, sorry ...)

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The best way to avoid coding errors is to try to remember to preview each post before you submit it. Also try to ensure your quotes align with the people you are quoting from - keep practicing, keep previewing, and I'm sure you'll get it!

Ahem... anyway, I still think Christianity Explored have a definite view on these things, but I'm not surprised they do not mention them in their courses. Are they really the most important things a person should think about when considering conversion?

I expect they would hold fast to a Penal Substitution understanding of Atonement, but I wouldn't expect them to call it that in their discussions.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:

Someone suggested that I could set up my own 'version' or something like that above, as a reasonably liberal and very open Christian.

No thanks. The idea of running something with the aim to 'convert' is not where my heart lays.

I would much prefer to meet people, get to know them, be friends with them, and see what happens.

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

Ahem... anyway, I still think Christianity Explored have a definite view on these things, but I'm not surprised they do not mention them in their courses. Are they really the most important things a person should think about when considering conversion?

[/QB]

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:

Someone suggested that I could set up my own 'version' or something like that above, as a reasonably liberal and very open Christian.

No thanks. The idea of running something with the aim to 'convert' is not where my heart lays.

I would much prefer to meet people, get to know them, be friends with them, and see what happens.

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So you need to set up some kind of discussion group - perhaps an interfaith forum in your area. My Muslim neighbour belongs to an interfaith group. They have discussions and go on outings. This sort of thing has the benefit of bringing the wider community together.

I'm not entirely sure why a church should fund and resource a Christian chat group for purely intellectual purposes, which is what you seem to be proposing. Alpha is meant to be friendly and, hopefully, non-threatening; but it is evangelism. Conversions are unlikely to be instantaneous, but there is certainly a hope that it will start some seekers on a journey. For those who are already Christians, they do it because they want to deepen their faith or grow in biblical knowledge, the better to develop a more mature faith.

Your post does suggest that churches are failing to provide spaces where Christians and seekers can talk about controversial aspects of faith. They see Alpha, because it's so famous, but that's not what they need, and so they're critical of it. In my Methodist circuit there's a series of meetings called Heretics Anonymous, where Methodists and anyone else who comes along can talk about faith issues that are a bit controversial. Perhaps that sort of thing would be worth exploring. Whether your congregation would be liberal enough to allow people to have these discussions in their church is another matter. Maybe you could arrange for it to be based at a local CofE/URC/Methodist church.

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Apologies for coming across as 'proposing' something.
That was not my intention!
I am not 'proposing' anything.

I have no interest in setting anything up at all.

However, I dont see why a church shouldn't 'fund' an intellectual discussion group. A group of people getting together in a room is hardly going to cost much to fund is it? So, I dont see the problem there if it was something people wanted/needed.

I also am sorry that I cam across as suggesting the church is failing to provide space for people. That was not my intention either. I don't seem to be aware of the things you are suggesting I have suggested.

I was merely posting with regards to Alpha, my issues with it, my mothers issues with it, and why I dont like it
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:


I have no interest in setting anything up at all.

However, I dont see why a church shouldn't 'fund' an intellectual discussion group. A group of people getting together in a room is hardly going to cost much to fund is it? So, I dont see the problem there if it was something people wanted/needed.

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:

Ahem... anyway, I still think Christianity Explored have a definite view on these things, but I'm not surprised they do not mention them in their courses. Are they really the most important things a person should think about when considering conversion?

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No. They are not.
Which is why I was not aware of any 'stance' CE holds with regards to these specific things because they were not discussed etc, but if it was something they felt very pertinent to the cause then surely they would have?

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Originally posted by Mark Betts:
But CE is primarily concerned, not with converting people with different church traditions to themselves, but reaching out to the unchurched. So what would be the point in discussing different views of atonement, divorce, woman priests, sexuality etc., at this early stage in the participants' spiritual awakening?

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Originally posted by Komensky:
The idea of Alpha seems a pretty good and *can* give people a place to discuss things that they would otherwise not discuss. The course has a predetermined goal though; that you become a charismatic-evangelical and subscribe to all the Christian Culture that comes with it. That's the 'western version'. The Catholic version is much better (I've seen it myself in the Czech Republic) in terms of teaching orthodoxy, but it too has a predetermined outcome: that you become a Catholic.

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If you are/know a good theologian, you can fix the doctrinal weirdness in the Alpha course and still use it.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:


I have no interest in setting anything up at all.

However, I dont see why a church shouldn't 'fund' an intellectual discussion group. A group of people getting together in a room is hardly going to cost much to fund is it? So, I dont see the problem there if it was something people wanted/needed.

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Alpha surely took lots of money, time and manpower to devise, and so would alternatives. As for Heretics Anonymous, I haven't been for a long time so I don't know if there have been any innovations, but I know that at the very least, it takes up a clergyman's time. Discussion groups of whatever kind require someone to develop topics and questions, find good resources and ways of presenting challenging material and interactive sessions. And if materials are used, they have to be paid for; even the cost of photocopies from the net adds up over time. Just hoping that interesting discussions will arise without any preparation is unwise.

I agree that a church should do whatever its members want and are willing to pay for, provided that everyone realises that if members or the minister are putting effort and resources into one thing, they probably have to do less of something else. So churches do need to make a judgement about the expected outcome of any activity, and whether it's going to be worth their while.

Sorry to mention this sort of thing, but I'm a former church steward! I also thought that since you disliked Alpha, you might have some alternative ideas to discuss, but if not, fair enough!

Talking of Alpha, there must be churches out there that have given up on it, having decided the returns were diminishing, and no longer justified the effort involved. It would be interesting to hear from people with that experience.

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1. annual Lent groups based around varying materials. The usual costs aren't high - mostly the cost of the books. The groups are held on church property or in homes, usually the home of someone who wants to be in to child mind.
2. Beer and Bible is a bible study in a pub, to try and make it higher profile, there's at least one other monthly bible group that reads and discusses a book of the bible over a term or so.
3. a spiritual book club that meets every 6 weeks or so to discuss a book that's spiritual in content - it might be theological, it might be from a different religion.
4. Emmaus or other group that explores Christianity;
5. another long running nurture group that explores the Bible and spirituality for exploring Christians - that's written internally and runs for a year, different group each year;
6. monthly evening service with speakers exploring ideas - that needs reviving - how the way art depicts the Bible shows the way theology develops, more about what the church building shows, loads of topics;
7. various internally written explorations of aspects of Christianity - the evidence for the crucifixion / resurrection / ascension was one, but there've been others.

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Originally posted by Horatio Harumph:


Sure once you go down the route of using materials/courses or even creating your own you get into the 'time' territory etc.
I appreciate it cost a lot to devise Alpha.
I would love to see group led topics as opposed to having 'someone to develop topics and questions, find good resources and ways of presenting challenging material'.

A group that has an interest will create its own topics and conversation. Perhaps you would need one or two people with strong biblical knowledge or views that represented whichever denomination or faith you are within the confines of to put across their view .. perhaps.

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But actually, so far, something so rigid and structured has not worked for me, where as the best places of learning, especially about faith have been those 'thrown in a room' moments, or the one to one friendships I have had with Christians who have taught me no end.

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