Ship of Fools: Sin, sin, and more sin

Thread: Sin, sin, and more sin Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Am I alone in being fed up of so much 'miserable sinners' 'we have grievously sinned' talk in Christianity and especially in worship.

It's not that I am denying sin. It's not that I am saying we should not confess. It's just I think we over egg it.

I was on a quiet day recently and we met for worship three times. Morning Prayer, Eucharist and Evening Prayer. At each the worship began with a confession of sin. I ask you? What had we been up to on that day that need so much confession? [Smile]

Do we need to confess at every Eucharist!

I think sometimes this sin, sinners talk is being said to keep our theology - especially our theology of Jesus in business. We are such terrible sinners the son of God had to die for us, praise him, accept him... that of stuff.

God loves us, God's love is reaching out to us before we ever know it, we are children of God. That more positive message, I think, should have more of a place - especially at the beginning of worship,, but more generally in church teaching and theology. Maybe the are churches or Christian groups which have a more positive starting point.

Or maybe I am just hearing this kind of talk and not getting the bigger balance that does in fact exist.

Thoughts?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

No, you're dead right. There's more than the evil sinner gracefully forgiven by God story; there's the release from bondage story (Exodus), there's the victim saved from his enemies story (lots of the Psalms, David and Goliath). There's Christus Victor and the Suffering Servant as well as the sin offering.

Posted by glockenspiel (# 13645) on :

You're not alone. Having to say this stuff again and again at short intervals suggests a world-view where none of us go for a whole day even without considering/saying/doing something rotten - none of us - ever ... That's not a world-view I wish to subscribe to.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I can see the point of confession before the eucharist but no reason for one at the daily offices. When i officiate, which is fairly often, i leave the confession out.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

Think yourself lucky! I thought that sort of talk was going out of fashion in the C of E. In my Free Presbyterian days, we used to scorn the C of E for not talking about sin enough - having said that, if we weren't criticizing them for that, we would soon find something else.

I guess more liberal Anglican churches would talk about sin less, and talk more about the good works we should be doing - this is important as well.

One thing I don't think there's much of in the C of E is personal confession (to a priest) - this is much more potent than just reciting General Confessions - because it ensures you face up to actual things you have done wrong, rather than just reading words out of a book in unison.

Where I go now, we have to make a personal confession (with the priest as witness) at least once every forty days - otherwise we cannot partake in the Communion. This may seem harsh sometimes, but I know it's right - and I don't see how we can grow if things were otherwise.

Posted by the long ranger (# 17109) on :

I certainly think the language of sin can be helpful - in that feeling the release of guilt can lift the load and enable someone to continue with life. On the other hand, I think there is a preoccupation with confessing sins which is unhelpful in many churches.

Somehow it'd be nice if there was some middle ground between totally ignoring it as an issue and using it as a kind of spiritual whiplash - to constantly remind you how bad you are.

Generally I suppose that comes down to being in committed and honest relationship with people - who will listen, sympathise and criticise our actions. I don't believe in priests, so for me that understanding of confession is totally out, but the idea is a good one, in my view.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

The only office that starts with a confession in Celebrating Common Prayer is Night Prayer (having just bothered to check). I can see the point with confession as part of the Eucharist and in Night prayer, reviewing the day and holding it up to God, at which point confession at Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer becomes redundant. Perhaps whoever set up that day seems not to have thought it through.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

So pleased I am not alone on this. I

Personally I can't see why each Eucharist must have confession in it as well. Don't we say 'forgive us our trespasses' each time as well. Then sometimes the collect or after Communion prayer goes on about it as well. Sinners all, sin, sin!

What I am also suggesting is rather than just miss it out why not emphasise loved of God. Unique and precious to God.

Now here I am not just talking about worship but about teaching and sermons and the whole lot.

I feel at times Christians put across a rather dismal view of humanity and its relation to God. Of course there are awful things in our lives and ther are terrible things in the world, but we are special, God does love us uniquely [Smile]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Going on and on about sin and having a brief confession, particularly before the Eucharist seem to me rather different things. I am really bothered in Easter when we have the Eucharist, but no confession. I really like my corporate confession of sin, and feel less fixated on sin that way.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Yes Gwai, a good point. However your experience is different from mine I don't recall a Eucharist without a confession - eastertide or not.

I can understand the point at the end of the day - as a kind of review of the day.

But yes, I see your point. However and maybe its how I have encountered and lived my Christian life - sin and the basic sinful state of humanity play a big part, along with Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world.

I can understand what is being said, but I'd also like different starting points as well.

We are loved by God, Jesus shows us that love is everlasting even through pain and death it prevails... That kind of theology. Maybe it exists. I am sure it does somewhere. But I don't hear much of it preached, or taught, or expressed in liturgy or poetry or art.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Time, perhaps, to view The Quivering Brethren's take on this.

But seriously, getting fixated on sinning is another form of obsession, whereas being reminded that we all fall short, but if we confess and try to amend our ways, then we are already forgiven is very helpful. Or it should be.

There is of course an opposite, those who will not hear about it at all. Best not to go there either. Regular self-examination and confession is good.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

When the Kyrie is in the context of a Mozart mass setting, the mournfulness of sin is often peculiarly balanced by the free and childish joy at being forgiven that is present in the music. being reminded of God's mercy can be a joyful experience. Your miserere doesn't have to be utterly miserable.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

I wonder if building our liturgies around the priorities of The Lord's Prayer would put confession of sin in the right place. Jesus puts adoption, heaven, God's name, the kingdom, God's will, social justice, and our practical needs ahead of dealing with sin.. Maybe we should too.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

There is no Easter without Good Friday.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
When the Kyrie is in the context of a Mozart mass setting, the mournfulness of sin is often peculiarly balanced by the free and childish joy at being forgiven that is present in the music. being reminded of God's mercy can be a joyful experience. Your miserere doesn't have to be utterly miserable.

You're right. But the Kyrie is a difficult example, as it is basically the reintroduced blown-out remains of an earlier litany, which is a somewhat different thing.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
There is no Easter without Good Friday.

I wonder what you mean by that Zach82 - in this context?

Posted by Felafool (# 270) on :

Daronmedway wrote:

quote:
I wonder if building our liturgies around the priorities of The Lord's Prayer would put confession of sin in the right place. Jesus puts adoption, heaven, God's name, the kingdom, God's will, social justice, and our practical needs ahead of dealing with sin.. Maybe we should too.

Amen to that! And how about affirming some of the things scripture says about the work of Christ in us: e.g Jesus talks about passing from darkness into light, from death into life. And what about all Paul's 'in Christ' passages..FGS he even calls us all saints! I particularly like 'If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has gone, the new has come.'

Not to say we do not stop sinning, but there is a continuing transformation through the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer by which we become more like Jesus....2 Corinthians 3vv17-18 'being transformed from one degree of glory to another'

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

At the time of the confession in the liturgy, it is often 'we' that is used rather than 'I'. We have the chance to look both individually and corporately at the gulf between God and us, to recognise how much we fall short of the ideal of the Kingdom, and how much greater God is than us. That's a positive way to approach worship imv.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I have to say I find the confession and reminders of sin to be useful, and not being in a location where either Eucharistic services or priests are readily available the inclusion of the confession in the liturgy for Morning Prayer is one of the ropes I have to cling on to to prevent me drifting away. I would prefer to be able to have the absolution pronounced by a priest but there we are.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Ah, yes, the liberal gospel is still with us.

A God without wrath saves a world without sin through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross.
-H. Richard Niebuhr

Sin is part of the liturgy because it's part of the narrative. Love and mercy are also part of the liturgy because its also part of the narrative. I see no reason to cut parts of the liturgy simply because we don't like them.

Sin is bad. Feelings of guilt over sinfulness is the sign of a properly formed conscience. Repentance is necessary. The way to avoid guilt over sin is not by removing sin from the liturgy but by sinning less.

Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on :

quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
You're not alone. Having to say this stuff again and again at short intervals suggests a world-view where none of us go for a whole day even without considering/saying/doing something rotten - none of us - ever ... That's not a world-view I wish to subscribe to.

Lucifer didn't want to subscribe to it either and he was cast out of heaven for it.

Do you really mean to say that you are perfect and equal in glory to God? That between breakfast and tea-time you could have taken Christ's place on the cross as a spotless lamb?

If not, then you are a sinner, for to fall short of perfection is to fall into sin. You don't have to be 'rotten' in your judgement, but any part short of everything God wanted you to be and you're on the same footing as the rest of us sinners, the best and the worst of us.

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

quote:
A God without wrath saves a world without sin through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross.
-H. Richard Niebuhr

Sin is part of the liturgy because it's part of the narrative.

Well put.

However, there is "going on about sin" and "going on about sin." As a pre-teen and teen I attend an RC Church. This was before the Vatican Council liturgical changes. Sinfulness -- especially, in those days, appeared to reside mainly in such things as "impure thoughts" not to mention (the mind boggles)impure touching or worse.

I recall a set of illustrations in our catechism which showed 3 milk bottles. The white bottle was a soul in a state of grace. The bottle with black spots reflected venial sins. Mortal sins were designated with a black bottle.

Unfortunately, the list of mortal sins was vast, which meant black bottles everywhere, even in the life of a 13 year old. When one risks going to hell for eating meat on Fridays, a certain sense of proportion is inevitably lost. The Holocaust? Eating meat on Fridays? Hitler? The local diner? All the same to me, said the priest (as I heard it, anyway). It's hard to keep a sense of moral balance and introspection when the definition of "maxima culpa" is so broad and peculiar.

Nowadays, as an Episcopalian, I am partial to the cogency of the Confession of Sin, Rite II. Its position right before the Eucharist seems perfect.

quote:
We have not loved you with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and we humbly repent.

It is an opportunity to examine the conscience. I just wish we were more time in silence were allowed before having to move on.

I find that I like to slip in, at the consecration, a couple of silent reptitions of old Catholic formulation, "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you. Only say the word and my soul will be healed."

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Thanks roybart.

I never suggested removing reference to sin, or confession from liturgy, and as far as I can see no one else has.

It's just the going on and on I find unnecessary. Three times a day in liturgy is what I mentioned. Once at most would suffice.

Of course if you hold the view that Christ had to pay the price of our sins then it helps to keep going on and on about what vile sinners we are - to keep that view of church in business.

For myself I prefer the more positive Christian approach [Smile]

It's rather like that saying about giving children much much more affirmation and praise than telling them how naughty they are. It builds them up rather than lowers their self esteem.

[ 14. November 2012, 21:23: Message edited by: Percy B ]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Percy can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are over-simplifying a bit much, beeswax altar. And since I know enough churches like this, I want to expand on what I think you're missing: Why do so many churches avoid discussing sin and guilt at all or do a sin and guilt special with special guilt frosting with nothing in between! I'd guess it's partially because we don'tn want to think about our own sin much, so we try to ignore it mostly and then pay for it by focusing on sin intensely during Lent and a couple other times.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I can see the point with confession ... in Night prayer, reviewing the day and holding it up to God,

Quite, but IMHO this should be more like the Ignatian examen which is a review of the whole day, God's presence in the whole of our life as well as our neglect/refusal of it. The positive as well as the negative.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Well said Angloid, and this commendable practice puts a balance on all this sin talk.

Rather than just we have sinned, we have really sinned, we have actually seriously sinned, in worship the e amen approach is a good one. We have done good things and we have sinned, we give thanks and we confess.

So yes the Examen approach is a great idea at Compline, but in a different way it would be good in other places too.

Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on :

I try to look at confession of sins as the necessary preamble to the most important bit: the absolution [Biased]

!

Seriously, the good bit is that, whatever our sins are, we're forgiven.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ah, yes, the liberal gospel is still with us.

I don't think it's just about liberal gospel (about which I don't have a ready definition, but maybe it's partly what I'm on about). It is about a generally self indulgent, rich (or rich aspiring), feel good society, where impulses are gratified, nothing is supposed to make us feel bad, everything smells nice, and nothing should ever upset us. And if we get upset, we buy something to make us feel better. Everything is outward looking, for gratification, all suffering is supposed to minimized, and we're all supposed to get over everything. Fast. The only bad feelings are vicarious, in response to media.

I think it boils down to wrong priorities, focus on self, and believing the answers lie within us, as humans. They don't, never have, never will. Confession, and awareness of short comings, missing the mark, are what has the potential to make our immediate behaviour conform to an other-centred gospel. I also think Jesus had a constant awareness of sin.

I certainly get that confession may be repetitive in some contexts, and varied forms of liturgy may need to be explored to help with that. But as far as I know, we aren't allowed to leave it out of liturgy, and there's good reasons for that.

[Fixed code, DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 15. November 2012, 15:55: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ah, yes, the liberal gospel is still with us.

I
I certainly get that confession may be repetitive in some contexts, and varied forms of liturgy may need to be explored to help with that. But as far as I know, we aren't allowed to leave it out of liturgy, and there's good reasons for that.

But you can leave it out of some official liturgies, can't you? As far as I know the office does not need have it, I don't actually know if weekday Eucharists in Common worship have to. I know some places where Eucahrist is combined with office and there is no confession then.

My point is rather different from one being attributed here to liberals.

My point is we are in danger of over emphasising the miserable sinners bit, to the detriment of chosen and loved by God bit. If we celebrated the latter and received it then it would also lead to a recognition of weakness and sin.

I also believe that the emphasis on sin is often on personal sin, not the corporate sins of humanity.

I hope liturgy can express before God in liturgy the sinfulness of humanity in say its treatment of the environment. The my fault my very own fault stuff can detract from the church's duty to plead for forgiveness for humanity.

[Fixed code,DT, Purgatory Host]

[ 15. November 2012, 15:56: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

My last (United Methodist) church had quit saying confession before its monthly communion service before I started going there. I asked the pastor about it and he said he had cut it from the service because, "Some people didn't like it." He was transferred and the following pastor didn't have communion at all in the eight months I attended because he had, "been too busy."

My milk bottle was looking like a bottle of Hershey syrup by then so I went Lutheran. As Jolly Jape says, it's the absolution I was longing for. It's the carrying it around trying to remember it all that's depressing.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I'm on a break from being a lay assistant from eucharist right now, but haven't heard that the bishop (Anglican) has changed the canon (or maybe it is not exactly a canon, but it was certainly a stipulation that was to be followed) that a eucharist had to have confession prior. I found as an assistant that it was probably the most meaningful part, and after posting this morning, I realized it is not just the confession, it is also the absolution.

The other thing I'm thinking about, is that those who have a sense of guilt and sin sometimes have too much, and those who don't really need to get one. It's sometimes hard to have a middle ground.

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

I don't think the theology around what Paul wrote on communion requires a confess-a-thon each time its taken. This was originally a full meal and joyous get together in house church. When it got out of hand with people pushing the poor aside, grabbing all the food and getting drunk, St Paul needed to get some perspective back on what was being celebrated,that's all. If he witnessed what we do now in most churches, it would confuse the hell out of him !

This dour confession each day or each week can end up simply a religious ritual. I do not believe God is remotely interested in a confession of every lustful thought, or minor discretion. Time and time again God warned the Jews that he wanted mercy not sacrifice. Being kind to others who sin and showing them mercy is more important than acting as if God our loving Father is really an abusive thug ready to dispatch lightening bolts for any unconfessed hidden sin. Some common sense wouldn't go amiss.

There is something that seems rather prideful about 'worm' theology in a perverted sort of way. If our kids treated us as parents in the same way would we be pleased or insulted ?

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
I don't think the theology around what Paul wrote on communion requires a confess-a-thon each time its taken. This was originally a full meal and joyous get together in house church....

This dour confession each day or each week can end up simply a religious ritual. I do not believe God is remotely interested in a confession of every lustful thought, or minor discretion. Time and time again God warned the Jews that he wanted mercy not sacrifice. Being kind to others who sin and showing them mercy is more important than acting as if God our loving Father is really an abusive thug ready to dispatch lightening bolts for any unconfessed hidden sin. Some common sense wouldn't go amiss.

There is something that seems rather prideful about 'worm' theology in a perverted sort of way. If our kids treated us as parents in the same way would we be pleased or insulted ?

Well said, sir!

By which I actually mean I agree.

I attend Eucharist frequently during the week, not daily, but more than twice. Every time there is a quick confession, and like Arminian I think it can a become a formality. Less frequently would have greater significance.

You say, and I say this again, I am certainly not saying never have confession as part of worship. What I think is we do it so often it is danger of loosing its significance and meaning.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

But surely that's our fault - if we start saying words without thinking about what we are saying or meaning them? Isn't that what those words are there to do, for us to think about "those things that we have left undone and those things we ought not to have done" and hold them up to God?

Could this be more about different people finding this form of liturgy more or less helpful?

[ 15. November 2012, 16:20: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

That's certainly a reason no one should attend any service without preparation, spiritual, physical and mental. Even five minutes of quiet time on one's knees before the service. Maybe should begin the night before. And of course if scruples develop, then abstain from preparation.

If too much confession of sin is annoying, we can also omit the Kyrie and Gloria, the Trisagion, and of course say the Lord's Prayer with its hgruesome petition for forgiveness only when we truly need it, which of course cannot be daily!

The Agnus Dei, thank God, is optional in most Anglican liturgies because of its constant harping on sin, and since we've been washed in the blood of the Lamb, we must constantly CELEBRATE how clean and pure we are! Yea, God!!

The Eucharist shows forth Christ's death. But we need to emphasise his Resurrection, so we shouldn't talk about such horrors like "blood" in this day and age. There are more modern forms of worship to use these days.

Now I'll go and listen to The Shadow and read T.S. Eliot while sipping an Egg Cream.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

The Wasteland should be right up your street, Mama Thomas.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

I can see that some agree and some don't, we'll that's how it usually is!

It's a bigger picture than liturgy for me.

I guess it's connected with the approach of some strands of Christianity to emphasise our guilt above our blessedness in God's eyes.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:

This dour confession each day or each week can end up simply a religious ritual. I do not believe God is remotely interested in a confession of every lustful thought, or minor discretion. Time and time again God warned the Jews that he wanted mercy not sacrifice. Being kind to others who sin and showing them mercy is more important than acting as if God our loving Father is really an abusive thug ready to dispatch lightening bolts for any unconfessed hidden sin. Some common sense wouldn't go amiss.

There is something that seems rather prideful about 'worm' theology in a perverted sort of way.

It seems prideful to me to be dispensing forgiveness to others who I've deemed sinful.

I don't know if God is "interested," in our confessions or if he just feels that we help our own awareness through recognition of our own sins but we do hear a call to repentance from John the Baptist and Jesus said that he had not come to change the law.

Surely the ten commandments weren't just given to us so that others would break them and the more holy of us could show mercy by forgiving them. Praying that God forgive "humanity," for environmental sins seems a bit grandiose and superior to me also. We can only be responsible for our own actions, can't we?

Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :

A few hundred years ago there might have been a valid excuse for being fed up with talk of sin... but I think our modern culture is so against the very idea of sin that if anything we need to talk about it more, to counterbalance this trend.

And maybe I'm just weird, but I think the confession (if done in proper Elizabethan English, of course) is the most beautiful and uplifting part of the service.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

Basking in our blessedness can be fine sometimes. We are part of the new creation, the people of the resurrection. Celebrate it. Perhaps in a quiet day or retreat situation, confession MIGHT better be left out of the offices if auricular is offered.

Every time though, I start to think I'm or we're getting better, something horrific happens on the news, or locally or to me personally--all the result of sin. Sin is horrible, ugly, nasty and defacing, dehumanising and other synonyms and comes disguised as My Redressing of a Slight, my disgust at Their Pride and Stupidity. My Wallowing in Bad Feelings, I'm Good Enough Just The Way I Am, and so on.

Arminian said confession can become "just a religious ritual" as if confession in and of itself and all religious rituals were bad things. There can be no Christian who has no religious rituals. Quakers and Pentecostals are as strictly by the book as Fortescue users. Starting with "shutting ones eyes in prayer" religious ritual goes on from and is easy to condemn when it is other than obe's own.

Confession during Anglican services is supoosed to be cleansing. To be free from what hinders us from hearing the Word, to receive forgiveness before offering the Sacrifice, to be made clean, ( or rather constantly to be put in mind of our redemption and our need to live in Christ) it takes a lifetimeof practice.

Posted by glockenspiel (# 13645) on :

I will only say that, as good and interesting as the various 'alternative' takes of the 'kyrie/confessional' sayings have been on here, the actual words used in most services do not suggest any such nuances.

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :

quote:
Am I alone in being fed up of so much 'miserable sinners' 'we have grievously sinned' talk in Christianity and especially in worship.

If there really is "so much" talk about sin in contemporary Christianity, then I must be missing it. Historically speaking, Christians have actually never talked less about it.

quote:
God loves us, God's love is reaching out to us before we ever know it, we are children of God. That more positive message, I think, should have more of a place - especially at the beginning of worship,, but more generally in church teaching and theology. Maybe the are churches or Christian groups which have a more positive starting point.

Again, I think this is the dominant message now everywhere outside conservative evangelicalism. The message I hear in a lot of churches is basically that we're all nice people really and God just exists to affirm that with his fluffy, unquestioning lurve.

[ 18. November 2012, 09:40: Message edited by: Yerevan ]

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I guess it's connected with the approach of some strands of Christianity to emphasise our guilt above our blessedness in God's eyes.

I haven't encountered such a strand. And it seems to me that guilt vs blessedness ought not to be a conflict. Isn't our blessedness only emphasised by the guilt that we are forgiven?

I think that the confession/ kyrie leading into the absolution and then Gloria speaks a lot to me and I feel the need to go through that process every Sunday. I only attend in the morning, so would miss the confession/kyrie/absolution bit if it was held back for an evening service.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

No I don't think we have too much emphasis on sin at all - many modern services seem to gloss over it and seem to spend all the time telling Christians how great they are instead. Churches have ditched Evensong and turned the main service of the day into a 'Let's all be happy and show the visitors how great Christianity is!' emphasis (not that there is anything wrong with that, just that the pendulum has swung too far that way). Am I the only person on this thread to find the admittance each week of being a 'miserable sinner' rather cathartic and helpful?

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Nope.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ah, yes, the liberal gospel is still with us.

A God without wrath saves a world without sin through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross.
-H. Richard Niebuhr

Sin is part of the liturgy because it's part of the narrative. Love and mercy are also part of the liturgy because its also part of the narrative. I see no reason to cut parts of the liturgy simply because we don't like them.

Sin is bad. Feelings of guilt over sinfulness is the sign of a properly formed conscience. Repentance is necessary. The way to avoid guilt over sin is not by removing sin from the liturgy but by sinning less.

With all due respect, Father, I think you are totally missing the point of the general tone of this thread. As has been noted by others on this thread, it is not some sort of "liberal" denying of sinfulness that is being advocated here. Far from it. Sin most definitely is all to real, on an individual and on a corporate level, and each of us individually as well as corporately needs to repent.

You are absolutely correct to say " The way to avoid guilt over sin is not by removing sin from the liturgy but by sinning less. " If you re-read the OP carefully you will see that Percy B was not advocating the removal of confession from the liturgy. What he was questioning was the need for a confession of sin to always begin each hour of daily prayer as is apparently the case in the 1662 English Prayerbook. In the medieval offices, every single hour did not include a confession of sin -- except of course that which is in the Lord's Prayer. The Eucharist, as the main liturgy of the church should almost always include the confession of sin and absolution. And -- for those who pray compline -- the confession of sin at this closing of day is certainly appropriate and salutary. For those who prayer Morning and Evening Prayer, but not Compline, or daily eucharist, the confession of sin at evening prayer would seem a good thing it seems to me.

A clear-eyed recognition of our sinfulness, with a sincere desire to repent and -- with God's help -- not sin in the future, is healthy and necessary. Continuously wallowing in dour guilt is not.

"Liberalness" is not the source of all bad things.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Ah, yes, the liberal gospel is still with us.

A God without wrath saves a world without sin through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross.
-H. Richard Niebuhr

Sin is part of the liturgy because it's part of the narrative. Love and mercy are also part of the liturgy because its also part of the narrative. I see no reason to cut parts of the liturgy simply because we don't like them.

Sin is bad. Feelings of guilt over sinfulness is the sign of a properly formed conscience. Repentance is necessary. The way to avoid guilt over sin is not by removing sin from the liturgy but by sinning less.

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