Thread: Is 'redneck' a hate-speech term and/ or racist? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
I was challenged about this by a (British) Baptist pastor a few days ago. Thoughts?
 
Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :
 
When I went to Washington DC some years ago, our local tour guide was very proud to tell us that he was a redneck. I was confused, as I'd thought it was abusive.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
In the US, it seems to have started as a pejorative term, but has been embraced by some as a term of positive identity. See Jeff Foxworthy.

In Auld Scotland, it meant Presbyterian.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I would have called it classist, but that may suggest an analytic approach which some would not share.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
So is there at least a degree of affinity of usage with the N-word ie: it's. acceptable if the recipients of the originally abusive term use it??
 
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
One of my work colleagues quite often uses a racist and often used to abuse (and inaccurate, as his parents were from Bangladesh) word to refer to himself, quite happily.

But I don't think that means we can just overlook it (particularly as some days we manage to grab the 'i'm not racist but...' hat as often as the opposite).
 
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
With regard to Matt Black. I'd be tempted to say yesish, although obviously there is a scale difference and more mobility for poor/ethnic whites.

Although robbing Peter to pay Paul springs to mind at times, with our attitude.
 
Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
So is there at least a degree of affinity of usage with the N-word ie: it's. acceptable if the recipients of the originally abusive term use it??

Well, yes. In general, in the US anyway, people can insult themselves without being offensive, particularly if they are being humorous, or if they are using a historically offensive term. But you can't insult others without being offensive, and saying that you're just joking doesn't excuse the offense.

It's not just racial or ethnic terms. When Carol Burnett's grandmother said to her, "you can always write, no matter what you look like," it was cruel. But Burnett could say things much more cutting than that about her appearance. Her saying it, though, doesn't give anyone else the right to say the same thing.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I always thought 'redneck' was classist as opposed to racist, but clearly there are nuances there.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
On an early Here Comes Honey Boo Boo trailer, the little girl's family was gathered and here's their take on being called "rednecks". (I'm afraid I couldn't decipher half of it.)

And here's a bit of vintage Jeff Foxworthy.

I think it is the usual thing: if someone is describing their own self or their own friends, family, and neighbors, it's okay. Otherwise, it's use the term at your own risk. Especially at their identifiable "locals".
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I was challenged about this by a (British) Baptist pastor a few days ago. Thoughts?

I'd be inclined to take an American Baptist pastor's view, but they vary too. You also have to consider whether "rednecks" have any choice about whether they are "rednecks" (if one is being earnest about these matters).
 
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
Another way to think about it: If you're using the term to write somebody off, it's offensive and probably racist, classist, or both. And what Jesus said about calling someone a "fool" (as the English translation normally goes) most likely applies.

And the very fact that the term has been reclaimed via comedy suggests it's an offensive term when applied by outsiders.
 
Posted by KHANDS (# 17512) on :
 
I think the term accurately reflects a significant segment of the U.S. population and believe most who fit the definition embrace it.
To understand this phenomenon is to understand the U.S. has a healthy(in terms of numbers)anti-intellectual tendency. Consider the fact that W. was elected twice; his whole schtick was good old boy, don't be layin' any of that fuzzy science on me jargon. These are the folks standing behind the outrageously audacious gun lobby, who are flooding the gun shops to get their assault rifles and large capacity magazines before the'govment' can outlaw our guns. I think that the stereo-typical red neck would embrace being accused of hate speech and/or being called racist.
Ok, maybe I'm a bit bias. Thanks for the opportunity to vent.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
When I went to Washington DC some years ago, our local tour guide was very proud to tell us that he was a redneck. I was confused, as I'd thought it was abusive.

Nope. "Redneck peckerwood" is the term that veers toward derogatory...

--Tom Clune

[ 19. January 2013, 20:44: Message edited by: tclune ]
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
'redneck' is not quite as bad as 'white trash' or 'trailer park trash' but it's derogatory, and it designates the same group.

Moo
 
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I always thought 'redneck' was classist as opposed to racist, but clearly there are nuances there.

I think it's more accurately an ethnic slur than a class slur.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Ok

Just a possibility that he meant Rooinek which translated is redneck and means British. That is what Boers called British settlers in South Africa. It comes from sunburn that the British got due to their fair skin and being out in the sun.

So two different terms of abuse, basically the same but with different implications.

Jengie

[ 19. January 2013, 21:57: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I always thought 'redneck' was classist as opposed to racist, but clearly there are nuances there.

I think it's more accurately an ethnic slur than a class slur.
In the US is definitely a class thing, not an ethnic thing. To some extent it is regionalist, but not ethnic.
 
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
It is said that the term comes from farmers getting sunburned on their necks while being outside on a tractor all day. Rednecks are white trash, plain and simple. It is a racist term in itself but since white people hold most of the power, most don't care about that fact and embrace it.

Weirdly I have never been called a redneck by a black person but I have been called "Laverne" and told to get a "big ol' L on my shirt" while in a cold-world type fight with a black gal I worked with. (Don't ask. I will spare you the story).*

To me the term is an insult to white trash people everywhere. The ones that fill their trucks with water in the back to make a pool (yes, some have done that).

Honey boo boo = white trash redneck child used for exploitation by her money hungry mother.

Does that answer your question Matt?

long ass ETA: *she is from East Palo Alto and I am from San Jose and I sound like a Valley Girl. I tended to piss off a lot of sistahs when I worked with a mostly black crew of people in a call center. It was my private hell but it paid very well for 6 years in Menlo Park and Palo Alto.

[ 19. January 2013, 23:09: Message edited by: duchess ]
 
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I always thought 'redneck' was classist as opposed to racist, but clearly there are nuances there.

I think it's more accurately an ethnic slur than a class slur.
In the US is definitely a class thing, not an ethnic thing. To some extent it is regionalist, but not ethnic.
Except I can easily imagine someone being quite successful in business and still being a self-identifying redneck. Though maybe we're talking about different kinds of class.

I'm not sure it's regionalist, though there are regions that are associated with "redneck" culture. The Appalachians, for instance, in a belt that I guess would run roughly from Maryland to Georgia. I think it's not regionalist because when I told someone in college that I grew up in Western MD, she asked if I knew any rednecks. She did NOT assume that I was a redneck, though she basically fled when I mentioned that I was related to some. Rednecks are associated with some regions, but being in a given region does not make someone by definition an obvious redneck.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I always thought 'redneck' was classist as opposed to racist, but clearly there are nuances there.

I think it's more accurately an ethnic slur than a class slur.
I took it to be the US version of 'chav', which is definitely a classist slur.
 
Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 
Given that "redneck" seems to refer to the fact that somebody's skin turns red when sunburnt and this is associated with undesirable characteristics, I fail to see how a racist overtone can be denied. I've never heard the term applied to anybody other than a white person.

[ 20. January 2013, 01:51: Message edited by: Evangeline ]
 
Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
It's not racist, because in its origins it's a derogatory term used by one group of whites to describe another. Classist is closer to the mark. If you're white and you spend the day bending over picking cotton, your neck gets sunburned. It was a term middle and upper class Southern whites (but especially middle-class) used to put down the poor whites who were no better than blacks (except for their melanin deficiency).

As many people have noted ( Bob Dylan, for one), lower class southern whites have often been the most virulently racist, because their white skin was their only marker of status and dignity. As a result it got taken up as a term for a bigoted (and by implication ignorant) white person. In reaction, some took it up as a point of pride (not necessarily for the racism, but for the lower-class white southern cultural aspects). At this point it's kind of like "nigger"--you're only allowed to use it if it could be applied to you. If you're not in the group, it's a fighting word.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I always thought 'redneck' was classist as opposed to racist, but clearly there are nuances there.

I think it's more accurately an ethnic slur than a class slur.
In the US is definitely a class thing, not an ethnic thing. To some extent it is regionalist, but not ethnic.
Really? Not racist? Because I don't know any people with black or brown skin being called 'rednecks'. Just white people.

(p.s. I do self identify as half redneck, half naca. Naca, of course, being the Spanish term for undereducated, low class rural folk who spend a lot of time doing manual labor in the fields. But if someone else calls me a redneck I'mna fight you)

(She says as she's finishing off a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer)

(Which is a very low class beer)
 
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Thanks for that Timothy. I used it once on an internet forum thinking it was just a slang term for people from a particular region, and not realising the derogatory nature of it [Hot and Hormonal] . I got yelled at (rightfully) but no one explained why and I was too scared to ask. It is not a term that I had come across much before and someone had so described herself.

Huia
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I always thought 'redneck' was classist as opposed to racist, but clearly there are nuances there.

I think it's more accurately an ethnic slur than a class slur.
In the US is definitely a class thing, not an ethnic thing. To some extent it is regionalist, but not ethnic.
Really? Not racist? Because I don't know any people with black or brown skin being called 'rednecks'. Just white people.

(p.s. I do self identify as half redneck, half naca. Naca, of course, being the Spanish term for undereducated, low class rural folk who spend a lot of time doing manual labor in the fields. But if someone else calls me a redneck I'mna fight you)

(She says as she's finishing off a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer)

(Which is a very low class beer)

Redneck is a term used for lower-class white people by other white people, so no, not racist.
 
Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
I really don't like this tendency to have a sweet spot where prejudice based on (non-direct) parentage is ok.
They are no more subhuman when the split is 300 years as 5000 years. It's as wrong when the colour difference is in the cloth as in the skin.

Which isn't to say if a group are better off because of something that happened they don't have a duty to 'repay', although it becomes complex very rapidly. Or that some groups don't need special protection.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
I don't know enough about the home culture to know whether 'red-neck' is hate speech, but however derogatory, in the technical sense, a term isn't racist if it doesn't relate to race, or if a person can't change whether it applies to them. Presumably you can only be a 'red-neck' if you are white. But if a person with 'red-neck' parents can cease to be by becoming educated, rising in society and acquiring more sophisticate habits, then the term isn't racist.

The 'n-word' is racist because your skin remains the same colour wherever you progress to. Those who have those sort of prejudices still have them, even when you are a second term President.

Assuming one can put away 'red-neckish' or 'chavish' things, however derogatory a person might regard these words, they aren't racist.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Thanks for that Timothy. I used it once on an internet forum thinking it was just a slang term for people from a particular region, and not realising the derogatory nature of it [Hot and Hormonal] . I got yelled at (rightfully) but no one explained why and I was too scared to ask. It is not a term that I had come across much before and someone had so described herself.

Huia

This is a common problem. The goals of multi-culturalism are important and good. But when it gets to the point where innocent mistakes are punished so severely it shuts off discussion and inquiry, it defeats it's purpose.
 
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
Another story...I had a professor who, on the topic of discrimination, mentioned that in many places all he has to do was speak and people assumed he was ignorant.

He was from Tennessee.
 
Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Another story...I had a professor who, on the topic of discrimination, mentioned that in many places all he has to do was speak and people assumed he was ignorant.

I've had many a prof who only had to speak to prove they were ignorant...

--Tom Clune
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
At this point it's kind of like "nigger"--you're only allowed to use it if it could be applied to you. If you're not in the group, it's a fighting word.

Not where I live. Around here the term "redneck" is frequently used in a pitying, condescending way to indicate someone from a poor rural area who is presumably not used to rubbing shoulders with people not like himself. There's always the hope that a redneck will get over it before he gets himself beat up or shot.

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
(She says as she's finishing off a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer)

(Which is a very low class beer)

Another regional difference -- here where the sewer meets the sea, the hipsters drink PBR.

[ 21. January 2013, 02:17: Message edited by: RuthW ]
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I always thought 'redneck' was classist as opposed to racist, but clearly there are nuances there.

I think it's more accurately an ethnic slur than a class slur.
In the US is definitely a class thing, not an ethnic thing. To some extent it is regionalist, but not ethnic.
Really? Not racist? Because I don't know any people with black or brown skin being called 'rednecks'. Just white people.


So, given that the English aristocracy are exclusively white, does that mean that 'toff' is racist?
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Another story...I had a professor who, on the topic of discrimination, mentioned that in many places all he has to do was speak and people assumed he was ignorant.

He was from Tennessee.

See also, people from Birmingham UK [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I was challenged about this by a (British) Baptist pastor a few days ago. Thoughts?

I would always attempt to correct my children if they ever called someone that. If someone, especially with a yankee accent, said such a word, or any other word that revealed he considers himself inherently superior or that locally born people are inherently inferior, it could possibly be taken as fighting words, at worst, and would, at a minimum, cause the yankee or who ever else said the word, to be shunned from further serious conversation.
 
Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
Honey boo boo = white trash redneck child used for exploitation by her money hungry mother.

Says the person speaking out of her ass while insulting a 7 year old girl on an Internet forum.

HBB is a worthless show with no redeeming value whatsoever, but Mama June is not a money hungry exploiter of her children. She's being very smart with the money. The family lives on dad's (Sugarbear) income. The TV money is divided evenly into trusts for all of the kids and held for them until they are 18.

TLC on the other had, could aptly fit the money hungry exploiter tag. I remember when the "L" stood for something.
 
Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
Up Against the Wall Redneck Mother
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
The show does nothing for me (and I do watch some reality shows, including at one time Toddlers and Tiaras), but the sly thing about "redneck" Mama June and Honey Boo Boo is that they have given every appearance of having a ball at the pageants and not taking it all too seriously, unlike many of their merely "lower middle class" competitors. There has been a whole spin off industry of following the feuds and rivalries between the little divas and their big diva moms, but Honey has always pretty much ignored them and Mama June has rolled her eyes at them. And they were the ones who landed a show. Good on them!

Also, IMO, if the family wants to rake in the money for standing proud and being themselves, more power to them. The head waggers who decry their "exploitation" also exploit by labeling the family's life as bad, while the family itself doesn't. The po'mouthed nay-sayers are filling valuable column space and making themselves look like the good guys on the side of social righteousness. Bleh! [Disappointed]
 
Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :
 
My comment towards TLC being the money-hungry exploiters isn't limited to HBB. It extends to their other quality programming such as Intervention and Hoarders.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:

HBB is a worthless show with no redeeming value whatsoever, but Mama June is not a money hungry exploiter of her children. She's being very smart with the money. The family lives on dad's (Sugarbear) income. The TV money is divided evenly into trusts for all of the kids and held for them until they are 18.

fwiw, in many parts of the country (but not apparently their home state) this is required by law

Not to dispute your point, of course. Sadly, the way education, and health care is apportioned here in the US, riding that TLC exploitation train is your best bet for providing a secure future for your kids. Were I in June's shoes, I'd probably do the same.

And I do sorta cherish the hope that someday there'll be a TLC show called "Dr. Honey Boo Boo" when she completes her residency on their dime...

[ 21. January 2013, 16:21: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
 
Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
My comment towards TLC being the money-hungry exploiters isn't limited to HBB. It extends to their other quality programming such as Intervention and Hoarders.

Correction, that would be A&E with Intervention and Hoarders. TLC made the knock-offs Hoarding: Buried Alive and Addicted.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
My comment towards TLC being the money-hungry exploiters isn't limited to HBB. It extends to their other quality programming such as Intervention and Hoarders.

Correction, that would be A&E with Intervention and Hoarders. TLC made the knock-offs Hoarding: Buried Alive and Addicted.
Hoarders is the scariest show on tv.
 
Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
some took it up as a point of pride (not necessarily for the racism, but for the lower-class white southern cultural aspects).

A not unprecedented tactic.

The original WWI BEF proudly referred to themselves as The Old Contemptibles in response to the kaiser's jibe at Britain's "contemptible little army".

In WWII he Australian Ninth Division just as proudly adopted the title The Rats Of Tobruk in response to Goebbels's description of the garrison's defenders as "rats".
 
Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
At this point it's kind of like "nigger"--you're only allowed to use it if it could be applied to you. If you're not in the group, it's a fighting word.

Not where I live. Around here the term "redneck" is frequently used in a pitying, condescending way to indicate someone from a poor rural area who is presumably not used to rubbing shoulders with people not like himself. There's always the hope that a redneck will get over it before he gets himself beat up or shot.

quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
(She says as she's finishing off a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer)

(Which is a very low class beer)

Another regional difference -- here where the sewer meets the sea, the hipsters drink PBR.

WRT the first point--I'm not sure that those denoted by the word would really appreciate the pity.

WRT the second--PBR is drunk by hipsters here in Beervana as well, it having acquired a reverse-snobbery cachet by being cheaper than, say Bridgeport IPA, but not as "common" as Bud, Miller, or Coors.
 
Posted by moron (# 206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
"Redneck peckerwood" is the term that veers toward derogatory...

--Tom Clune

That may be a NE thing... one of the parts of the country I haven't spent much time in.

Pretty much everywhere I've been it's 'peckerhead'.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
So, is 'toff' racist?
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Classist, I would think, not racist.
 
Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Classist, I would think, not racist.

But just as derogatory and unpleasant a term as any other that falls under an '-ist' that springs to mind.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
No, I don't think so.
One can change ones class, or the behaviour which draws the insult.
Bad, yes. As bad as? No.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
But with the English aristocracy being pretty much exclusively white...
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Yes, but that is not the main issue for the insult.
 
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
I think, as Mere Nick pointed out earlier, that "Yankee" might be the American equivalent (at least if you're from the south.) "Snob" is a more common term. A few years ago I was dating a girl from Massachusetts. I mentioned this to a co-worker where I was interning, and his immediate response is "Oh, so is she one of those New England snobs?" My dad thought that was hilariously ironic.

This being America, I think everyone has their own way of being elitist.
 
Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
When I went to Washington DC some years ago, our local tour guide was very proud to tell us that he was a redneck. I was confused, as I'd thought it was abusive.

The old joke is that you can tell if someone is really a redneck by calling them a redneck. Real rednecks respond with violence. Fake rednecks will buy you a beer. There is a good deal of truth in this insofar as the original pejorative meaning has been diluted by educated people trying to embrace a rural lifestyle.

It is my experience that the word is used throughout the U.S., not just in the deep south.

I believe it is a classist or elitist term, not a racist one. I don't know whether it's a hate speech term or not, but the original meaning is certainly pejorative.
 
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
When I went to Washington DC some years ago, our local tour guide was very proud to tell us that he was a redneck. I was confused, as I'd thought it was abusive.

The old joke is that you can tell if someone is really a redneck by calling them a redneck. Real rednecks respond with violence. Fake rednecks will buy you a beer. There is a good deal of truth in this insofar as the original pejorative meaning has been diluted by educated people trying to embrace a rural lifestyle.

It is my experience that the word is used throughout the U.S., not just in the deep south.

I believe it is a classist or elitist term, not a racist one. I don't know whether it's a hate speech term or not, but the original meaning is certainly pejorative.

I think there's a bit of a grey zone between authentic rednecks as you describe them and educated people trying to embrace a "rural lifestyle."
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
My experience is that the term is widely used throughout the US, but the specific meaning varies a lot based on the circumstances.

Initially it referred to people such as construction workers and road crews who had to wear hard hats; farmers typically wore straw hats with a wider brim all around until ball caps became ubiquitous (which might have roughly coincided with the advent of closed-cab tractors); cowboys and many farm workers also wore wide-brimmed sombreros. [Spanish for "hat".]

Now I hear it used several ways: most commonly as an indicator of a simplistic, self-centered conservative view of the world, usually associated with intolerant attitudes. Less often it also implies a level of rural (or semi-rural) poverty and slovenly living. Neither of these are race-specific, and are capable of being changed, so I don't consider the term racist. (It often implies that the person to whom the term is applied might hold racist or other bigoted views, however.)

The racial version is "poor white trash", which translates as "useless as a nigger, 'cept'n they're white." I rarely hear this term, and was probably in my 20's before I encountered it the first time. (But then, my family didn't talk much about rednecks, either.)

Back when I worked on forest crews, the big source of division (and group identification) was the length of one's hair: if it was short enough to expose your neck to the sun you were a redneck, while if it was long enough to cover your neck you were a hippie. Conservative/liberal politics were assumed to follow accordingly. Rednecks got drunk, drove pickup trucks, and went hunting; hippies got stoned, drove old Volkswagen vans, and ate vegetables. It was a simple world where people were easily classified.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Origin of redneck, classist not racist.
Origin of White Trash, still more classist than racist, but the racism is in a different direction than most think.
 
Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
So if, say, a Native American used it to refer to a pick-up driver who'd just told him to piss off back where he came from, the usage would probably not be racist since the Native American user would be using it to refer derogatively to the pick-up driver's bigoted attitude?
 
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 
Exactly.
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
[qb] When I went to Washington DC some years ago, our local tour guide was very proud to tell us that he was a redneck. I was confused, as I'd thought it was abusive.

The old joke is that you can tell if someone is really a redneck by calling them a redneck. Real rednecks respond with violence. Fake rednecks will buy you a beer.
I'm a hillbilly, or better put, an Appalachian-American and would much prefer that you buy the beer.
 
Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :
 
I always wondered about the supposed origin of the word redneck from anyone who had a sunburned neck due to regular outdoor work of any kind... becuase anyone who REGULARLY does this would have a nicely tanned neck, not a red one. sunburn only happens when you are rarely in the sun. so seems to me, if the term redneck has any relationship to sun burn (which I actually doubt.. the red bandana root seems more plausible to me), then it would reasonably refer to someone who is sort of a "weekend warior" when it comes to outdoor work. a term I could see being used by "real" farmers (or wahtever) to describe those who spend their weeks in suits in offices in town, but come to the country and pretend to be be "one of us", but can be identified as posers by their red necks.

That's just my own philosophising. I actually don't think the term was ever used in this way, but it seems like it would make more sense than actually referring to farmers.

Regardless of history, where I live (Virginia.. home of MANY rednecks) it's generally used to describe those who live more rural lives and is never used specifically as a racial slur by anyone. While it does refer mostly to white people, it's definitely not their whiteness which is being criticized (or praised as the case may be), but rather their "simple" lifestyle and outlook on life.

We are a rural county which has only in the last 20 years or so become home to many suburbanites who commute to the city. so the term locally is often used to distinguish between the two: long time local with historic ties to the area (usually with a last name Decatur, pronounced dee-KAY-tur), regardless of social standing or income, vs. newcomer.
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I always wondered about the supposed origin of the word redneck from anyone who had a sunburned neck due to regular outdoor work of any kind... becuase anyone who REGULARLY does this would have a nicely tanned neck, not a red one. sunburn only happens when you are rarely in the sun. so seems to me, if the term redneck has any relationship to sun burn (which I actually doubt.. the red bandana root seems more plausible to me), then it would reasonably refer to someone who is sort of a "weekend warior" when it comes to outdoor work. a term I could see being used by "real" farmers (or wahtever) to describe those who spend their weeks in suits in offices in town, but come to the country and pretend to be be "one of us", but can be identified as posers by their red necks.

That's just my own philosophising. I actually don't think the term was ever used in this way, but it seems like it would make more sense than actually referring to farmers.

It would make sense, but is actually the opposite of the way the term is used.

More likely perhaps would be that the "weekend farmers" coined the term to describe the real rural dwellers they interacted with, perhaps assuming they'd have red necks based on their own experiences.

Although seasonal variation is such that I think even someone who is out in the sun every day is going to get a sunburn from time to time if they aren't using sunscreen.
 
Posted by Russ (# 120) on :
 
Seems to me that the word is a label for a particular male subculture found in parts of the rural USA.

When used of an individual to denote membership of that subculture, such usage may be accurate or inaccurate, and neutral or ironic or derisive (and tone of voice will indicate whether derision is intended).

Certainly neither "hate speech" or racist of itself.

Is it the fact that tone of voice doesn't come across online that makes people over-sensitive to words which could conceivably carry negative overtones ?

Best wishes,

Russ
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I always wondered about the supposed origin of the word redneck from anyone who had a sunburned neck due to regular outdoor work of any kind... becuase anyone who REGULARLY does this would have a nicely tanned neck, not a red one. sunburn only happens when you are rarely in the sun.

There are some people whose skin never tans; it just gets redder and redder. I have the impression that people with this skin type are unusually common in the South.

Moo
 
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
quote:
Originally Posted by Russ:
...a particular male subculture found in parts of the rural USA....

Female redneck.
 
Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
lilbuddha wrote:

quote:
Origin of White Trash, still more classist than racist, but the racism is in a different direction than most think.

I never saw Gone With The Wind until my late 30s or early 40s, and I was rather startled to see "white trash" used in that film by the slaves.

I'm kind of surprised that bit of dialogue isn't more well-known, given how commonly used the phrase is today, and that GWTW is one of the most quoted films in history.

[ 26. January 2013, 16:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
This is from wikipeadia. If true, it certainly has deeper connotations:

In Scotland in the 1640s, the Covenanters rejected rule by bishops, often signing manifestos using their own blood. Some wore red cloth around their neck to signify their position, and were called rednecks by the Scottish ruling class to denote that they were the rebels in what came to be known as The Bishop's War that preceded the rise of Cromwell. Eventually, the term began to mean simply "Presbyterian", especially in communities along the Scottish border. Because of the large number of Scottish immigrants in the pre-revolutionary American south, some historians have suggested that this may be the origin of the term in the United States.

Dictionaries document the earliest American citation of the term's use for Presbyterians in 1830, as "a name bestowed upon the Presbyterians of Fayetteville [North Carolina]".
 
Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
Seems to me that the word is a label for a particular male subculture found in parts of the rural USA.

When used of an individual to denote membership of that subculture, such usage may be accurate or inaccurate, and neutral or ironic or derisive (and tone of voice will indicate whether derision is intended).

Certainly neither "hate speech" or racist of itself.

Is it the fact that tone of voice doesn't come across online that makes people over-sensitive to words which could conceivably carry negative overtones ?

Best wishes,

Russ

It is a kind of word that a local can use easier than an outsider can. I could say it here easier than you could and I suspect you could say "Mick" or "Paddy" easier in Ireland than I could. In fact,though, I wouldn't even bother. I would rather say "Guinness, please" and politely inquire as to which is greater, the beauty of Ireland or the graciousness of the Irish people.
 
Posted by Bean Sidhe (# 11823) on :
 
From what I pick up of US usage, 'redneck' does seem to have derogatory connotations, of being ill-educated, bigoted etc. Perhaps not as much so as 'trailer trash' or 'white trash' - the latter perhaps most offensive with a racist implication that trashiness is normally about non-whites, except in the case of poor whites.

As has been said, the nearest UK equivalent is probably 'chav' - not explicitly derogatory, nobody seems sure where it comes from, there are various accounts. But the stereotype is similar. Ill-educated, welfare-dependent, procreating like rabbits, probably obese, slutty, bigoted, drunken and gross. All part of demonising the poor so we can pull the safety-net from under them and still sleep at nights.
 
Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
lilbuddha wrote:

quote:
Origin of White Trash, still more classist than racist, but the racism is in a different direction than most think.

I never saw Gone With The Wind until my late 30s or early 40s, and I was rather startled to see "white trash" used in that film by the slaves.

I'm kind of surprised that bit of dialogue isn't more well-known, given how commonly used the phrase is today, and that GWTW is one of the most quoted films in history.

"Cracker" is one that's still in use, at least in some pop culture media. I've never seen that phrase used in earnest, personally, but that might be my own cultural background.
 
Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :
 
I have heard that "cracker" originated in central Florida and was applied to local cattle ranchers who herded their cattle with a whip. Thus the crack of the whip was associated with these ranchers.

OK, fellow shipmates, I'm asking for those among you with valid authority to do so to absolve me from the grievous sin of trying to watch both Downton Abbey and Honey Boo Boo at the same time a few weeks ago. My finger was going wild on the remote control button. I don't know why I've been watching HBB. It's like driving by a terrible car accident and I know I shouldn't look but I can't help it. Frau Organmeister thinks I have truly lost it.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I promise I won't try it again.
 
Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
I have heard that "cracker" originated in central Florida and was applied to local cattle ranchers who herded their cattle with a whip. Thus the crack of the whip was associated with these ranchers.

I've heard that theory, but I more commonly hear that its origin is from whip-cracking slave drivers. Not to be confused with the wealthy slave-owners. The lower-class whites would actually be out in the hot fields cracking a whip, if they weren't working the fields themselves.

Either way, it seems to have originated in the 18th or 19th century, originated in the southern US, and denoted a low-educated/low-class white person.

[ 28. January 2013, 20:21: Message edited by: monkeylizard ]
 
Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
I'm skeptical of those explanations of the etymology of cracker.

There is a very tiny place in the mountains of Virginia called Cracker's Neck. There were few, if any slaves in those mountains, and AFAIK they didn't have that many draft animals either.

Moo
 
Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :
 
Moo, if "cracker" did originate in central Florida it's entirely possible that it spread to other areas of the South.

HOWEVER, I seem to recall that in a discussion of "cracker" on How the States Got Their Shapes, someone quoted a passage from one of Shakespeare's plays where he used the term "cracker"....can't recall the play.

Does anyone have access to the OED?
 
Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :
 
A quick check of Wikipedia says the play is King John.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
But that's a different meaning of the word "cracker". On this side of the Atlandtic it means someone who is talkative or lively. It seems to be used pejoratively in that play as if it meant boastful or a windbag, but it is mostly be used approvingly. I have heard it used as a compliment. (There also, confusingly,l seems to be a slighly different meaning of "cracker" to mean good-looking or attractive, which I guess might come from the same origin)

Its related to "crack" meaning jokes or fun or conversation or entertainment. (Which for some reason is almost universally taken as an Irish word these days when in fact its a perfectly good English word that has been inthe language since the Middle Ages - though perhaps became localised in parts of Scotland and the North of England - and was borrowed into the Irish language in recent decades.)Its related to words like to things like "wisecrack" for a joke, or "cracking a joke" or "not what its cracked up to be" for something that isn;t as good as its sales pitch. (I think my Mum uses that last phrase a lot, I'm not sure why!)

Anyway, in modern British and Irish English, calling someone a "cracker" is a compliment, though perhaps not a very common one. I'm not likely to use it, but I can think of more than one person who does. Usually in the phrase "a right cracker". If you Google for that the first hit is a Sun headline over a photograph of a young woman's bum...
 
Posted by Anyuta (# 14692) on :
 
hmm. I have only heard the term "cracker" used by blacks to describe whites (similar to the formerly used "honkey"). Not to say that's the only usage, but it's what I have heard around here.

having just looked on wikipedia, I can see that this has it's root in slightly different usage, but what I have heard locally is applied to ANY white person by a black person. This is among HS aged kids mostly, so I don't know if they just don't know about the more specific use?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
I have only heard the term "cracker" used by blacks to describe whites '

Most Brits would be surprised by that usage. It never made it over here.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Usually in the phrase "a right cracker". If you Google for that the first hit is a Sun headline over a photograph of a young woman's bum...

Pun not intended, yeah?

Humorous take on cracker from an American perspective. (at about 1:15)
should be work-safe, except for watching youtube at work...)
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
The only senses I have ever heard 'cracker' used are Ken's 'a right cracker' - a bit old fashioned now, I would have thought - and a crispy savoury biscuit to go with cheese.

M.
 


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