Thread: 'Prayer blockages'? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Where and when did the notion of 'blockages to prayer' emerge? Is there a theology behind it? I stumbled across a book by Bill Hybels the other day and it was full of references to things in our lives which may 'block' answers to prayer. In short, if your prayers aren't being answered, it's probably because you have some unaddressed sin or unresolved relationships in your life. This sounds like claptrap to me, but is there a theology behind it? From what I can tell, it emerged in charismatic circles in the US, but is not pretty common in charismatic parts of the C of E.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Sounds like rubbish to me as well. Not that I haven't heard this sort of stuff before. IMNAAHO, prayers aren't answered because some prayer is an attempt to avoid the simple fact that Shit Happens.
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
*or rather is 'now pretty common'. Curse you edit window.
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Why, then, do people read this shit, nod their heads and think 'yes, this makes sense!'. I guess the same reason that people get tea leaves read, or tarot cards and the like. They *want* to believe that the miracle answer is nearly at hand, but the authors of this stuff ensure that they never actually get it.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I was only thinking this morning of the 'theology' you get about demons controlling geographical areas, the whole thing built on one obscure verse in Daniel (Daniel 10:13). I wonder if this sort of "God can't do it even though he wants to because..." thing, in this case built perhaps on (again, just two verses) Mark 6 vv 5-6
 

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Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :
 
Did sin stop Jesus answering requests for healing or help ? No. In fact Jesus didn't ask for repentance first at all. What he did ask for was some confidence in him that he was a good person and would do good things even if they didn't deserve it. This is a concept most churched people can't seem to get their heads round. I've listened to a lot of different sermons over the years, and none of them would have inspired the reaction Jesus got from the Centurion who simply believed Jesus would heal his servant, or the blind man who screamed out knowing Jesus would heal him despite being a sinner. Its always, you aren't good enough, do more (for my church...).

In the Old Testament there was a concept of repentance and God answering - but the sins were very specific. Oppression of the poor, violence, murder etc. The sins most of these books go on about are much lesser moral 'failings'. Most of the time they are sins that aren't even listed in the Bible as sin ! Its almost as if organized religion has to add to the list of sins to keep the flock feeling guilty and controllable (Sounds a lot like the Pharisees ?!).
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, Arminian, there's also a school of thought which suggests that the Centurion's servant may have been some kind of homosexual sex-slave ... which adds another dimension to all of this - and also potentially takes it into Dead Horse territory ...

But remaining Purgatorial, I think the basis of this kind of thinking is based on several passages which are used to explain why things might not work out the way we might like:

- Charismatics will often point out that Jesus couldn't do many miracles in Nazareth because of the people's 'lack of faith' - therefore it's the people's fault (a very convenient get-out clause for leaders in some charismatic churches I've found).

- We have to ask according to God's will, 'if we ask anything according to his will he hears us and if he hears us we know that we will have what we have asked of him ...' type of thing (quoting from memory).

- The incident in Daniel where the archangel Gabriel is apparently delayed when coming in answer to Daniel's prayers because of opposition in the 'heavenly realms' as it were.

I think a lot of it comes down to the apparent 'lack of results' compared with the level of expectations. Only this morning I had an email from an earnest lone-wolf charismatic saying that if he was a church leader he'd be asking serious questions as to why we don't see 'demonstrations of the Spirit's power' on any grand scale (as he sees it).

'Why aren't we seeing what it says on the tin?' he asks.

The question only arises if we, rightly or wrongly, believe that:

- The miracles, signs and wonders and providences in the Bible are actual historical events.

- And that we are to expect such things - or even greater things, today.

That then gets reduced to a somewhat binary formula:

- We're seeing signs and wonders because we have faith.

- You aren't so you don't have faith.

Hence the pressure and strain in some quarters to lower the bar to allow almost anything through as a putative sign or a wonder - even normal, everyday occurrences or things that can easily be accounted for in non-explicitly miraculous ways.

That doesn't let the rest of us off the hook though ... one of the things Jesus seemed to rebuke people for was their lack of faith ...

I'm sure there's a 'germ' of truth in the Bill Hybels thing, but again, as I so often say (I'm afraid) it gets over-egged out of proportion.

We can under-egg things too, though, in the opposite direction and this is where the practical Deism charge comes in and can have credence.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Oi, Gam, I was first with both those passages!

Thought you'd be on this one before long
 

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Posted by kankucho (# 14318) on :
 
For me (Buddhist), prayer is a process of opening up to the changes I need to make in myself in order to be suited to a desired effect. I can only conceive of 'blockages' as an inner resistance to making such change.

Does that idea have a parallel in Christian theology?
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by kankucho:
For me (Buddhist), prayer is a process of opening up to the changes I need to make in myself in order to be suited to a desired effect. I can only conceive of 'blockages' as an inner resistance to making such change.

Does that idea have a parallel in Christian theology?

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quote:

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Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

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Originally posted by monkeylizard:
I have wondered if it doesn't come from James 5:16 (KJV used here)

quote:

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Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

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If the fervent prayer of a righteous man sways God, and your prayers are getting nowhere, perhaps the problem is that you're just not righteous enough, or you have unconfessed faults (sins), or so the "theology" goes.

There's certainly some basis in truth here, but I think that "theology" is proof-texting like crazy.

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In my former evangelical days, this concept was used a lot (and the word righteous is in there in both the NIV and the ESV, and indeed the NRSV - not that the NRSV would have been touched by a bargepole by this church, but I digress). Your prayers only worked if you were 'right with God'. Of course, when your relationship with God is done in your head, so to speak, without explicit absolution (as it is in evangelical circles), it's very easy to think of all the ways in which you're not right with God and why your prayers might not work.

Then of course, you get those (often KJV-only but not always) who think that women who pray without covering their heads won't get their prayers answered...
 

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Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :
 
I've heard it cited by folks who subscribe to the name-it-an-claim-it theology. They would seem to be related to me. The blockage idea simply gives an out for when those name-it-and-claim-it prayers aren't working. The problem then must be some unresolved sin in your life keeping you from being righteous enough to have powerful and effective prayers.
 

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Posted by Alwyn (# 4380) on :
 
Am I the only one who's reminded of Adrian Plass' story of The Leper?
 

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Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by monkeylizard:
I've heard it cited by folks who subscribe to the name-it-an-claim-it theology. They would seem to be related to me. The blockage idea simply gives an out for when those name-it-and-claim-it prayers aren't working. The problem then must be some unresolved sin in your life keeping you from being righteous enough to have powerful and effective prayers.

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And gives some people an excuse to say, "And we can help you remove those blockages! Just buy our book, pay to come to our seminar, and provide a love offering to the minister..."

Just because you didn't get the answer you wanted in prayer doesn't mean you didn't get an answer. Why can't people understand sometimes God just says "No"?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 


@Robert Armin - ok, you've nailed me. The hwyl got me where I am today and I'm trying to hwyl my way out of it (haul my way out of it, geddit? - not that hwyl is pronounced like 'haul').

Goperryrevs has also noted that I'm drawn to these sort of topics like a fly to shit.

Must.re.sist.

Kinnock could be a wind-bag and so can I.

It doesn't go down very well outside the Principality.

I've been wondering about giving up the Ship for Lent - when it comes - but perhaps a less extreme course of action would be for me to declare a self-imposed moritorium on posting on topics like this - unless I've got anything new to say.

How does that sound? (I'll get trampled, I can hear the heads nodding from here).



So unless anyone can think of any good reason why I should be reprieved I will declare a hwyl-free zone and impose a moritorium on myself on posting on charismatic/evangelical topics from midnight tonight ('sooner ... sooner ...! ' they clamour.

So unless anyone can think of a reason for a reprieve?

....

I'll take that as a 'Yes' then. Here it is. Self-imposed moritorium starting this evening.

I can feel the cold turkey coming ... but it'll do me good ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ10wLxSYUs
 

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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
If we accept the reasoning of this concept, it would seem that some prayers are more worthy than others. I think it is more like this with prayer: God hears or not, but prayers are like an offering of music or a comfort of some other kind, they soothe and help to bear what ever is occurring. The reality stays the same (or changes for non-prayer related reasons) even if some magical thinking wants to consider otherwise.

Thus if someone feels they have a blockage, the problem is not with God hearing and doing, it is with the expectation of what they think God should do, and magical thinking about miracles having caused misinterpretation of past 'granted' prayers.
 

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Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:


It doesn't go down very well outside the Principality.

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Implying long-windedness goes down well here? More often with speakers than with listeners, in my experience...

The elephant in the room is the idea that prayer is a transaction, while in fact it is part of a relationship. 'Blockages' (horrid term) occur when things get one-sided or exploitative.
 

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Posted by barrea (# 3211) on :
 
Gamaliel How long does self imposed the ban last for?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Good question, barrea.

How long would you like?

The charismatic answer would be, 'until I feel the Lord tell me ...'

The pragmatic answer is, 'until I can't resist having my two-happ'orth.'

In which case, not very long ...

Perhaps we ought to start a 'sweep' to see how long it lasts?

I think the key is 'unless I've got something new to say.' If there's anything new or startling (I doubt it) that I could add within a few weeks I'll do so. But if not, I'll hold my tongue.

Best all round.
 

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Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 
I don't think that there are any 'blockages' in prayer, but that depends how we understand prayer. If prayer is simply a matter of vending machine type requests, then, yes, a refusal may cause one to consider the blockage theory. But surely prayer is so much more than that. Asking God to give you understanding as to why things remain as they are, is also a form of prayer. Communion with God in suffering and trials and prolonged periods of deprivation involves a type of prayer.

There is no blockage to our relationship with God (other than a refusal to have that relationship in the first place!), since "nothing can separate us from the love of God". Prayer is, of course, essential to the maintenance of that relationship.

I think many people in the charismatic scene have reduced the Christian life to a form of witchcraft: cast your spell (say the right form of words in prayer) and you'll get a result. I really don't think I am being spiritually presumptuous by saying that I don't think God is terribly impressed by that kind of spirituality!

There is suffering in life. It seems to me that well over 50% (or maybe 90%!) of the Christian life seems to be involved in trying to come to terms with that reality in a relationship with God.
 

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Posted by Grammatica (# 13248) on :
 
May I give a somewhat more worldly and cynical reason for the theology of "prayer blockages"?

I have heard wonder-working ministers of the charismatic kind proclaiming at length that they possessed miraculous powers to heal all the congregation's ills. And that would have exposed them to prosecution under the statues against fraud, except that they always tacked on a quick statement at the end, to the effect that it is God Who heals, and He may not always choose to.

In other words, the miracle-workers added a disclaimer that kept them out of trouble with the law. Could "prayer blockages" be invoked for similar reasons?

I honestly think more miracle-workers than we'd like are simple fraudsters preying on the poor and gullible, the people in most desperate need.

[ 25. January 2013, 18:20: Message edited by: Grammatica ]
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Grammatica:
May I give a somewhat more worldly and cynical reason for the theology of "prayer blockages"?

I have heard wonder-working ministers of the charismatic kind proclaiming at length that they possessed miraculous powers to heal all the congregation's ills. And that would have exposed them to prosecution under the statues against fraud, except that they always tacked on a quick statement at the end, to the effect that it is God Who heals, and He may not always choose to.

In other words, the miracle-workers added a disclaimer that kept them out of trouble with the law. Could "prayer blockages" be invoked for similar reasons?

I honestly think more miracle-workers than we'd like are simple fraudsters preying on the poor and gullible, the people in most desperate need.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Grammatica:
I have heard wonder-working ministers of the charismatic kind proclaiming at length that they possessed miraculous powers to heal all the congregation's ills.

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Yes, and some of them have performed their "wonders" and received "miraculous answers to prayer" even while they have been involved in sexual sin or financial corruption. Not true of everyone of course.

Having said that, and still believing in the absolute grace of God in the whole process, I do feel there must be some link between known and unrepented sin in the person praying, and ineffectuality in their prayers. But this can't be quantified.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Christianity is supposed to help people who are troubled. Those Christians who put obstacles in the way of the troubled and vulnerable, by filling their heads with extra worries ('you don't have enough faith', 'you are stopping the miracles by your sin', 'you have allowed demons to enter you', etc. etc.) are the ones who are causing a blockage, and - I suspect - are the ones referred to as 'putting a millstone round their necks' by Jesus himself: It would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he was cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble. But I bet they don't see it that way.
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 

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Originally posted by Waterchaser:
For me it seems sort of logical that sin might cause a block in prayer but its not something I have really thought through


I see.
[Quote]

In John's gospel (chapter 15) Jesus talks about remaining in the vine as a condition for answered prayer. Perhaps this is partly behind the theology - although there is the issue of interpreting what remaining in the vine means, it does seem though from John 15 to be connected to obeying Jesus's commandments.[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by kankucho:
For me (Buddhist), prayer is a process of opening up to the changes I need to make in myself in order to be suited to a desired effect. I can only conceive of 'blockages' as an inner resistance to making such change.

Does that idea have a parallel in Christian theology?

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