Ship of Fools: Children preaching in Church

Thread: Children preaching in Church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=024898

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

There are many children preaching, as well as singing hymns and no doubt leading the people in their churches. Lots of info and pictures about them and their parents and what they do now and children who have done it later, a while ago.

More often, I've noticed children in churches involved in the choir, reading the Bible, carrying the lighted candles, helping to collect the money offered, and often being taught separately from adults during the church services. And little ones in CofE in London usually get the Bread, not the Wine, and get blessed also with that.

It does look in that info that the children are doing well and behaving well. Has that happened in many churches in different places of the world?

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
It does look in that info that the children are doing well and behaving well. Has that happened in many churches in different places of the world?

A LOT more than a LOT of people many times their age, bitter experience teaches me.

Posted by Charles Had a Splurge on (# 14140) on :

ISTM that the child preacher phenomenon is a part of the whole ‘Church as Entertainment’ scene.

And as the article you linked to suggested, child preachers when they grow-up just aren’t that interesting. Think child stars like Macauly Culkin to see the effect in a proper showbusiness environment.

That’s not to say that God doesn’t use children to teach adults. The story of Samuel and Eli, the children on Palm Sunday, Jesus putting a child in the midst of the disciples. We had one child give a powerful testimony at her baptism (she was eight or nine at the time) of her love for Jesus. At our “Sunday School” Anniversary service this year we gave the children an opportunity to use cardboard testimonies to tell the rest of the church something about how God was working in their lives. And although some of these were bland, unoriginal or downright lies, others were exceptionally touching. (in case you were wondering: there was no compulsion to come up with a testimony, or even to show it if the child didn’t want to).

But preaching… a step too far.

Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :

Child preachers are a phenomenon peculiar to certain groups within American Pentecostalism. Every so often one will pop up on YouTube. I'm not sure whether it's part of the "family dynasty" mindset that many Pentecostal churches have --- that a pastorate is handed down from generation to generation --- or whether it's the perception that a particular child has "the Anointing", i.e., that he (it's never a she) exhibits preaching/public speaking gifts at an especially young age. It's probably some of both.

There was a little boy named Marjoe Gortner who gained wide reputation as a child preacher in the late '60s; a movie was made about him. I don't know whatever became of him.

Posted by Ruth Gledhill (# 10885) on :

Someone on Twitter (@cartoonsbyjosh)has pointed me in the direction of @judahsmith who seems to be sane and successful and as a pastor's kid started v young. Does anyone know of any child preachers in this country though?

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

I think they did it better in the middle ages with the tradition of boy bishops.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And little ones in CofE in London usually get the Bread, not the Wine, and get blessed also with that.

Usually? I know some churches accept children to communion before Confirmation after a certain age, but I don't know how "usual" it is.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
And little ones in CofE in London usually get the Bread, not the Wine, and get blessed also with that.
Usually? I know some churches accept children to communion before Confirmation after a certain age, but I don't know how "usual" it is.

It's now the practice of The Episcopal Church to admit children of a locally determined age to Holy Communion. In the States Confirmation is no longer a binding prerequisite for reception of communion.
*

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

[X-post, answer to Spike]

Pretty usual up north. They get the chalice up here too.

[ 29. August 2012, 18:50: Message edited by: balaam ]

Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
[X-post, answer to Spike]

Pretty usual up north. They get the chalice up here too.

The bit about withholding the chalice from children is what struck me as odd. Very odd, actually. I'd be interested in the rationale for it. I hope it's not a case 'no booze for children', because that argument would not impress me in the least.

Posted by John D. Ward (# 1378) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
There was a little boy named Marjoe Gortner who gained wide reputation as a child preacher in the late '60s; a movie was made about him. I don't know whatever became of him.

Marjoe Gortner

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

From the article:

quote:
The phenomenon is most likely to crop up among denominations which emphasise the power of the Holy Spirit and encourage lay participation, says Edith Blumhofer, an expert on the history of Christianity, based at Wheaten College in Illinois.

It is also likely to arise, she says, among sections of the population otherwise regarded as at the margins of society.

There's also a hint in the article that the perception of children as innocent is a factor - children might make better "empty vessels" for God to speak through.

It does strike me as a bit too gimmicky. Good publicity for a church, though. People will come to hear a kid preach, perhaps because it's a novelty, or perhaps because it's understood as a sign God is doing something special, or perhaps just because kids are cute.

BTW, off topic here - why does the BBC quote an African-American woman as calling herself a "mum"? They do it twice. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say she called herself a "mom."

Posted by PentEcclesiastic (# 12098) on :

Believe it or not, I started as a child preacher. I think I turned out pretty well. I agree that this is probably a phenomenon unique to the Pentecostal movement in America. I don't share that information about myself, mostly for fear of misunderstanding at best and no longer being taken seriously at worst...especially within contexts that are non-Pentecostal. For example, the rector at the church I'm serving as seminarian introduced me as a Pentecostal preacher who's been preaching longer than I have. He asked me how long I'd been preaching. I said 10 years. The answer is closer to 20 if I count my elementary days.

I've never heard the "Church as Entertainment" idea that someone mentioned earlier in the thread, and I have to say that makes a lot of sense as well. All I know is that my parents and spiritual authorities never pressured me the way Marjoe Gortner's parents' did. They obviously had ulterior motives.

As far back as I can remember, children have always been a vital part in Pentecostal worship service. In most of the African-American/Black congregations, families worship together, so it is common to see children of all ages worshipping, "shouting" or testifying. I couldn't imagine the child preacher outside of a pentecostal context truthfully.

[ 30. August 2012, 02:26: Message edited by: PentEcclesiastic ]

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

I preached once when I was 17 years old.

I'd like to try it again sometime. But I tend to go to those kind of churches where preaching is left to those with advanced degrees in churchly things.

I think getting kids involved in the ministries associated with worship is a good thing, because it tends to keep them involved as adults. This is wholly unsubstantiated and based off my anecdotal evidence, though.

[ 30. August 2012, 03:27: Message edited by: Spiffy ]

Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :

Not just in the Middle Ages! In our church, the choristers elect a Boy Bishop each year and he preaches on the Sunday after Christmas (the Feast of the Holy Family).

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

If preaching at 15,16 and 17 is child preaching then you might like to check out the URC and Methodists (I would say Baptists but I am not sure)

Doug Thacker (died last year aged 86) started at 17 preaching at Holymoorside, I do not think he is exceptional. I led at least two services aged 17 although neither involved preaching but I suspect on the day I led the second there were young people preaching somewhere in the URC. If you want modern ones try Hadleigh United Reformed Church.

I think this is a different phenomena, the young people are normally preaching at small churches which depend on lay preachers for worship. They are often trained and supported by their own congregation.

Jengie

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

I wasn't preaching in as a child church, but as I got my 13 yr old, from then I was working in teaching and working with the little children, up to 8 yr olds. And then I got shifted into the older ones, and did lots of work in the church as well. I was the youngest one they used, but I didn't preach, read Bible, sang etc etc...

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Why does this thread rekindle the awful memory of William Hague addressing the Tory conference at age 16? [Frown]

[ 30. August 2012, 22:48: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

I thought this thread was going to be about

this bizarre behaviour.

Out of respect to the pentecostalists here I'll say no more.

Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :

Seems it's not just Christianity that 'enjoys' this phenomenon.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Had a Splurge on:
ISTM that the child preacher phenomenon is a part of the whole ‘Church as Entertainment’ scene.

Agreed.

Posted by Below the Lansker (# 17297) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

I think this is a different phenomena, the young people are normally preaching at small churches which depend on lay preachers for worship. They are often trained and supported by their own congregation.

Jengie

When I was in the sixth form, I led worship and preached at the rural Baptist chapel where I grew up. As you rightly point out, it was a small gathering, and at the time we were without a pastor.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

As far as formal sermons goes, I don't think my church would allow it at all. But then again, when the vestry group stand up at the end of the service to let us know what they have been doing during their special part of the service, and give us their own interpretation of it, it's amazing how often their few short sentences can get to the nub of the meaning more effectively than the preacher of the obligatory 15 minute sermon to the adults. Out of the mouths of babes, and all that....

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:
If preaching at 15,16 and 17 is child preaching then you might like to check out the URC and Methodists (I would say Baptists but I am not sure)

As for Baptists, Spurgeon first preached at 16.

M.

Posted by Josquin (# 8834) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I thought this thread was going to be about

this bizarre behaviour.

Out of respect to the pentecostalists here I'll say no more.

Yep, can't stand it. Is this a vessel through which the Holy Spirit speaks, or is this a child imitating the style and words of his elders?

Along those lines, I've been part of a captive audience too many times on a crowded subway train during impromptu calls to worship. My analysis of this sort of performance - the orator loves the sound of his/her own voice more than they love the Lord. The reply - not true. My response - then go in peace to love and serve the Lord and leave these good people alone.

The arrogance and conceit of some public preaching is remarkable. They are so sure.... while disrespecting brethren of other faiths.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

I didn't grow up in a church that allowed female preachers of any age, but there were no restrictions on speaking at a women's meeting, or a youth meeting (at our church or elsewhere), or giving a "testimony" with attached three-point sermon. So yes, I more or less preached occasionally from the age of about 15. Being one of the youngest in the youth group was part of the reason - the others who spoke at meetings were all at least 18 I think.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

Well done Aravis!

I always enjoyed reading, singing, teaching the children etc when I was a young teenager.

There haven't always in every church been complaints about youngsters getting involved, but some don't want it to happen. It must help children as well as adults, IMO.

Posted by PentEcclesiastic (# 12098) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Josquin:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
I thought this thread was going to be about

this bizarre behaviour.

Out of respect to the pentecostalists here I'll say no more.
Yep, can't stand it. Is this a vessel through which the Holy Spirit speaks, or is this a child imitating the style and words of his elders?

Along those lines, I've been part of a captive audience too many times on a crowded subway train during impromptu calls to worship. My analysis of this sort of performance - the orator loves the sound of his/her own voice more than they love the Lord. The reply - not true. My response - then go in peace to love and serve the Lord and leave these good people alone.

The arrogance and conceit of some public preaching is remarkable. They are so sure.... while disrespecting brethren of other faiths.

I think that it is or can be a healthy dose of both. Within the Pentecostal tradition, which is my own, child preachers are still rare. However, I was very heavily monitored and scrutinized to ensure that this wasn't "entertainment." There was a degree of personal piety and spirituality that I maintained, not because my parents forced me, but because I loved God and desired and welcomed His presence.

Even then, as now, there were other preachers that I admired. Their style, or cadence. I think all preachers have other individuals that they admire. What's the harm in that kind of imitation?

All I'm saying is that within the Pentecostal tradition, and any others that would embrace this phenomena that it be discerned spiritually. I know of other child preachers who started out just like me who haven't fared too well. I attribute it to the supervision I had.

Posted by JeffTL (# 16722) on :

Frequent lay preaching raises some interesting questions, at least from my (moderately high Episcopalian) position. Most notably..if a person is trained and qualified to preach in church on a regular basis, and legitimately has that vocation, should that person not be ordained to the diaconate?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

No. The diaconate is a serving, pastoral order.

People like Readers are teachers and preachers and their unique contribution comes from being LAY people who inhabit the world of work and mortgages and who, thus can relate the gospel to the discipleship of other lay people.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:

... BTW, off topic here - why does the BBC quote an African-American woman as calling herself a "mum"? They do it twice. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say she called herself a "mom."

Because that's the way it's normally pronounced and written over here. They'd be sensitive that spelling it "mom" might be interpreted by some people as mocking someone else's accent, like 'dee-lightful', or putting 'mam' into the mouth of a Welsh person.

Posted by infoleather (# 17335) on :

I hope this is not a case, is not for the kids booze, because that argument, at least I will not make a good impression.

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JeffTL:
Frequent lay preaching raises some interesting questions, at least from my (moderately high Episcopalian) position. Most notably..if a person is trained and qualified to preach in church on a regular basis, and legitimately has that vocation, should that person not be ordained to the diaconate?

Some are called to Holy Orders, and some are called to the laity, but as members of the priesthood of all believers, we all have gifts that we can share.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0