Thread: Carol Services 2012 Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Is a Christmas Carol service a significant feature of your church worship schedule?

I've been thinking about the format and the readings of community carol services. Most churches can't copy Kings Cambridge, and nor should they.

In particular the readings sequence could vary a bit. I have no problem with the traditional sequence, but on the whole we don't have nine lessons but six. I don't go that much with the serpent story from Genesis.

And do non scriptural readings feature in your order?
 
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :
 
Remember that the King's service itself includes loads of music, sometimes a couple of carols between readings, with weighting towards choir pieces.

I've compiled a carol service that follows the King's pattern with readings, bidding prayer and blessing as are (virtually) scripturally ordained. We had seven congregational carols, three pieces by the 'Singers' (they didn't view themselves as a fully-fledged 'choir') and a couple of poems. The length worked well.

I'm in favour of well-chosen non-scriptural readings. Poems are normally a good bet, though we've also used readings such as Martin Luther King's 'I have a dream' speech.
 
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 
The Episcopal Church's Book of Occasional Services includes a form for a service of Lessons and Carols, which is based on the King's College service. They give you a few options for readings, but at least in American Episcopal churches, the expectation is that your Lessons and Carols service is going to take that format.
 
Posted by quantpole (# 8401) on :
 
Well we're doing a service in the middle of a local park, complete with stage and big PA system. There are a mixture of readings and poems etc. Music is a mixture of normal carols and jazz arrangements, with a choir accompanied by a band. At the end we have fireworks [Smile]
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Wow, in the park sounds fun!

I find the kings service long and a bit static. I enjoy it on tv, when you can get up and make a cuppa!

But I think it can be a basis for a local service with maybe more involvement, and variety.
 
Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :
 
We did 7 carols & lessons yesterday as a service celbrating Advent. Doubtless we will do the 9 lessons & carols for Christmas in the future. [Votive] [Angel] [Smile]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Wow, in the park sounds fun!

I find the kings service long and a bit static. I enjoy it on tv, when you can get up and make a cuppa!

But I think it can be a basis for a local service with maybe more involvement, and variety.

I've experienced a service with the same outline as King's but with the people singing the carols from the Hymnal. Wow, was that tedious. Used to do that in a previous parish on the First Sunday After Christmas, as the main morning service. So for the following few years that was a Sunday to go visiting elsewhere for Mass.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Haven't got one per se, but there's a sort of metally outfit that does an annual Christmas Carol gig (yes, really).

I don't usually go for trad stuff done contemporary, but these guys are IMO very, very good.
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Yes that would be both tiring and weary. That is why I think a more varied liturgy is appropriate for a local community.

I also think a different sequence of readings for a change would help - me at least.

In one parish I knew different singing groups, including a children's choir, offered an item in the programme.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Christian Union at my uni have theirs (I am a sort-of member) tomorrow in one of the coffee shops on campus. I may or may not be planning on having my rosary prominently about my person.

I am going home before my church has theirs [Frown]
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Many years ago, the CU at the university I was at was asked by the chaplaincy to provide a choir for the university carol service, on account of the fact that they knew that they liked singing.

I was asked to organise this, on the basis that I was an organist and singer myself.

So I got out the hymns A&M and asked the assembled masses who knew whether they were S, A, T or B.

Blank looks.

So I asked them leading questions about whether they tended to find hymns too high (that finds the potential A and B, I find). Then they realised where we were heading.

You'd think singing in harmony was the sin against the Holy Ghost, the response I then got.

They sang in unison. What's the point?
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I had someone in the choir once who I moved from soprano to alto for various reasons, including being of the view that this suited her voice better. She left shortly afterwards because God wanted her to sing soprano. Clearly the good Lord doesn't like his faithful singing underparts [Big Grin]

[ 11. December 2012, 08:57: Message edited by: seasick ]
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I had someone in the choir once who I moved from soprano to alto for various reasons, including being of the view that this suited her voice better. She left shortly afterwards because God wanted her to sing soprano. Clearly the good Lord doesn't like his faithful singing underparts [Big Grin]

Ha. I'm reminded of the old joke: how many sopranos does it take to change a lightbulb?
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Three. One to go up the ladder and two to bitch that it's far too high for her but they could do it easily.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
[Killing me]

We have a very trad Carols and Lessons (this coming Sunday, so as not to overload just before Christmas) - Isaiah's prophecies x 2, the Annunciation, the Birth, the Shepherds, the Wise Men, and the Johannine Prologue as a liturgical Gospel (i.e. with Alleluias and incense [Big Grin] ). We begin with Eric Milner-White's now rather old-fashioned Bidding Prayer, and include well-known (we hope) hymns and carols to be sung by all.

Mulled wine afterwards, of course!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Unda Maris (# 4983) on :
 
The Order of Service for Kings 2012 has been revealed to us!
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Unda Maris:
The Order of Service for Kings 2012 has been revealed to us!

I observe that the congregation have the dots for the bits they should sing. Would that it were ever thus; ironically it's probably the one service where they don't really need them [Biased]
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I had someone in the choir once who I moved from soprano to alto for various reasons, including being of the view that this suited her voice better. She left shortly afterwards because God wanted her to sing soprano. Clearly the good Lord doesn't like his faithful singing underparts [Big Grin]

Ha. I'm reminded of the old joke: how many sopranos does it take to change a lightbulb?
.
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Three. One to go up the ladder and two to bitch that it's far too high for her but they could do it easily.

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

/alto
 
Posted by The Kat in the Hat (# 2557) on :
 
I'm a soprano who gets bored singing the tune, so always sang alto in choir. Our school choir master always got the altos to sing the descants with the sopranos, which made it the best of both worlds to me.
 
Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :
 
Circumventing the choir issue, in answer to the OP: yes, the carol service (Carols by Candlelight in our shack) is an important part of our worship schedule over Christmas.

In response to the ever-lower numbers we were getting to it in its traditional slot (6:30pm Sunday), one of our deacons suggested moving it to late on a Saturday afternoon (normally the Saturday before Christmas Day). Our numbers doubled and the event had a much better feel to it - like we were part of something special, rather than just doing something we'd always done for the sake of it.

Then, two years ago, some children from our local Infant School came and sang some songs as part of the service, which they did again last year and are doing again this year. Which again has boosted the numbers to the point where we have pretty much a full house how. But more significantly, it feels a bit like a community event now, like a section of the community, believers and non-believers, are coming together to hear and tell the Nativity story and, maybe, hopefully, if I manage to string a coherent sentence together, perhaps hear something of its meaning for us.

Many of them won't come back to our church again till next year, but that doesn't matter (at least not to me) - there's been a wonderful sense of people coming together these last couple of years, which to the sentimental part of me feels "Christmassy".
 
Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Is a Christmas Carol service a significant feature of your church worship schedule?

Whilst not being Kings, we do the Nine lessons and carols, with Choir anthems interspersed and it's quite a big deal, it's probably the most popular service we do as a Church (or it certainly has been in the three years I've been in the Church I attend) bigger than midnight mass I guess.

As a proper 'by candlelight' thing I get to go over the top with candles, and is the one time of year I'm allowed to indulge my aesthetic side at the behest of my Priest in the rather MOTR CinW Church I attend... candles galore, and the way I do it, it would probably make for a really impressive twighlight Pentecost service with the reredos a flame with candles...

I've been meaning to suggest we get a tasteful nativity icon to make as the centre piece on the shelf of the reredos for 9 lessons, since my candles are laid out to lead the congregation to focus on the Altar, but didn't this year, will save up and suggest it for next year.
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
Here, in a city and region where everyone heads south to escape the oppressive heat and humidity at Christmas, and in a faith community that is tiny anyway, we will just have a skeletal form of 9L&C ... probably about five people sweltering under the night sky. But it will be fun, and while we won't have the choir pieces we will sing and read the other items with gusto and aplomb.
 
Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Whilst not being Kings, we do the Nine lessons and carols, with Choir anthems interspersed and it's quite a big deal, it's probably the most popular service we do as a Church (or it certainly has been in the three years I've been in the Church I attend) bigger than midnight mass I guess.

Same here. We stick fairly closely to the Kings structure. A part of me wants to shake things up a bit, but then the other part of me says "don't change something that is loved and popular".

We certainly get far more to this service than to midnight communion on Christmas Eve. The only other services in the year that "compete" with the Carol Service in terms of attendance are the Christmas Eve Crib Service and Remembrance Sunday.

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
As a proper 'by candlelight' thing I get to go over the top with candles, and is the one time of year I'm allowed to indulge my aesthetic side at the behest of my Priest in the rather MOTR CinW Church I attend... candles galore, and the way I do it, it would probably make for a really impressive twighlight Pentecost service with the reredos a flame with candles...

Again, we have OODLES of candles. And very atmospheric it is, too.
 
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :
 
Yes we do the Sunday after Christmas. I always plan to be out of town. Lessons and Carols sung by a small handful of elderly people and an organist who is old and often missing notes. It is bad enough with the three hymns on a regular Sunday, but a whole morning of it is more then I can stand. Spoken by an old lady who can not sing well herself.
 
Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
I must say I do like this year's music selections better than last year's. I may get Dr. Mr. the Ferret to listen to it with me this time around.
 
Posted by The Riv (# 3553) on :
 
I was fortunate to serve for a number of years as Parish Musician for an ECUSA Church outside of Cincinnati, OH where there was a Choir of Men & Boys, a la King's et al. In additon to quarterly Choral Evensong, a Service of Nine L&C was an overwhelmingly popular service each December. At it's high point, we emulated the King's service completely, with two carols (or cong. hymn & carol) after each reading. Having moved on from that Parish, as well as church music service (temoporarily, I pray), I miss it intensely. I also find it very difficult to be in the congregation instead of in front of the choir, but that's another issue entirely! YES, candles a-plenty, YES, community/town involvement, yes, yes, yes. Love it all.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
So as not to single sopranos out for obloquy, here is an old joke about tenors (which when I was involved in planning a carol service, were the voice we couldn't find).

"A lack of tenors produces an aching void, but a large tenor section fills the void without removing the ache."
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
A part of me wants to shake things up a bit, but then the other part of me says "don't change something that is loved and popular".

This.

We have a short 'carol service' before Christmas Eve Mass; a bit of a sing-a-long of the carols that don't fit into the other two masses. Very much not correct in any way, and a bit tired, although enjoyable to play at.

I try to pick hymns in a logical sequence that lead up to the beginning of mass, but the lack of available bodies to help with anything revolutionary is noticable. I swear, next year, that I'll put more preparation into it and rejig the format I inherited completely, but then I've sworn that the last couple of years. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :
 
One of the four churches in our parish is used to some sort of carol service on the morning of Advent 3, but they don't like it to run too long. Since I'm organising it I'm going down the route of 5 carols + 4 lessons = 9. Works for me!
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Panda - or others- what is the first scripture reading used at your carol service?

I ask because in a way it sets the tone, and also I don't like the fall story!
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
Our fancy carols and lessons service is our Advent Carols and Lessons service which features many choral goodies. And a very nice and tasty reception afterwards, including several types of wine. (It took place this last Sunday evening, but unfortunately I missed it.)

On the Sunday after Christmas we have a shortened Christmas carols (all congregational) and 5 lessons which leads into the Eucharist. There is no sermon (as per the Book of Occasional Services guidelines), the choir has the day off after its Christmas efforts, although there is usually a solo, and the Bidding prayer at the beginning (as per the Book of Occasional Services) takes the place of the Prayers of the People. And again, as per the Book of Occasional Services guidelines, there is no sermon. So it is not tedious in length. It gives priests and choirs a bit of a break after all their Christmas efforts, and it's a way of extending Christmas beyond Dec. 25 (since I am glad to report that we are firm in not doing Christmas music before Christmas Eve). And it is done in conjunction with our annual Christmas breakfast. (I'll be reading one of the lessons. Lesson 4 is the Luke 2 account, and Lesson 5 is John 1:1-18 -- this last reading gets the usual liturgical treatment for the Gospel, i.e., Gospel procession and candles)

[ 13. December 2012, 04:32: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
 
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Lesson 5 is John 1:1-18 -- this last reading gets the usual liturgical treatment for the Gospel, i.e., Gospel procession and candles)

I always remember this being entitled, "St John unfolds the mystery of the Incarnation" in the order of service for our school carol service (and I'm sure elsewhere, too). It definitely deserves special treatment.

I think the ASB had it as the midnight Gospel, which I much prefer to a birth narrative.
 
Posted by GordonThePenguin (# 2106) on :
 
My school used the same title for the last lesson and we always stood for it.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
I think the ASB had it as the midnight Gospel, which I much prefer to a birth narrative.

The ASB did not specify anything for midnight - it just gave a number of options (ie John 1 and Luke 2) for Christmas, whether in the day or night. CW in effect does the same.

The missal gave John 1 for Christmas Day (which is why it is the only Christmas gospel in the 1662 BCP) and Luke 2. (There are two sets of readings in the 1549 BCP, but not 1552.)

I can see the thought that you get grown ups at midnight and children in the morning when Luke 2 is more appropriate. I came across that transposition years ago in a C of E church that rigorously followed Roman usage (with imagination and pastoral realism.)
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
We have three sets of readings for use on Christmas Day (including midnight) and can choose which to use at which service. I always use the John 1 at midnight - somehow that seems to me to be the supremely appropriate moment to be proclaiming that the light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.
 
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
The parish church has an evening 9 lessons and carol formal format and at chapel we offer an afternoon less formal occasion. This year between carols we have a group of young people singing, and children delivering brief dramas about the gossips in Nazareth, the debate about whose turn it is to change the baby's nappy and a puppet play imagining how one wise man explains to his wife where he is off to...

This way in a small community the churches offer different styles of carol service to meet both traditional expectations and the family friendly option.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Our vicar prefers that we do 7 alternative readings (all from Luke, except lesson 7 from Titus) for some reason. It is pleasant enough, but not quite as atmospheric. We usually alternate traditional congregational carols and traditional choir items, ending with a fun carol item with something surprising in it (eg. shouting, whistling, very fast singing).
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
I always remember this being entitled, "St John unfolds the mystery of the Incarnation" in the order of service for our school carol service (and I'm sure elsewhere, too). It definitely deserves special treatment.

You're right - though in my school it was "unfoldeth". Problem was, we always held our service in a well-knwn London church; the Vicar who read the lesson clearly didn't want to be there and so rattled off the lesson thus:

"In the beginning was he WORD and the Word was GOD the same was in the beginning with GOD in him was LIFE and the life was the light of MEN ..." (I may have got it slightly muddled, forgive me).

Fr seven whole Christmasses, nothing much unfolded for me at all! I love the reading now but it is treacherous for readers.
 
Posted by IceQueen (# 8170) on :
 
Sunday last was a very trad Nine Lessons by candlelight after the King's College pattern, at the parish where I'm dragged in to help out by a relative.

We used the set readings as ever, framed with nine congregational carols and two choir numbers. To further the King's comparison we opened with the solo first verse of Once in Royal, although sung by an alto in lieu of a chorister, and finished with O Come All Ye Faithful, and Hark the Herald. Sadly, any resemblance to the King's service was purely structural; the less said about the choir the better. However, the parish loved it.

This coming Sunday, at my own parish, all bets are off, apart from the certainty that there will be candles. There will be trad carols, and fairly standard readings - it's probably the most trad service we do, but all I know of the order so far is that I've been asked to sing that Kendrick classic, Like a Candle Flame as a duet with one of the basses...
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I must say I'm grateful to see the exclusive use of scriptural readings.

I was involved for some years in planning a carol service for a secular group.

Before I was involved there was only one scriptural reading (Luke) and all the rest were secular pieces, often comic, with tangential reference to the Christian faith, if any.

I caused outrage by suggesting that all the readings should be scriptural, but managed to convince the would-be luvvies involved there was sufficient dramatic opportunities in the Bible to show of their fine voices.

When I suggested John 1, the other main organizer said she had never heard of it.
 
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Unda Maris:
The Order of Service for Kings 2012 has been revealed to us!

I guess it goes without saying that this service is heard and loved everywhere that I have ever lived. Here on the U.S. East Coast we hear it while driving around in the car or wrapping presents.

We have a somewhat similar service on the first Sunday in December, but it is usually more focused on some important choral work (i.e. The Messiah or Magnificat) than purely lessons and carols.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Unda Maris:
The Order of Service for Kings 2012 has been revealed to us!

I guess it goes without saying that this service is heard and loved everywhere that I have ever lived. Here on the U.S. East Coast we hear it while driving around in the car or wrapping presents.

We have a somewhat similar service on the first Sunday in December, but it is usually more focused on some important choral work (i.e. The Messiah or Magnificat) than purely lessons and carols.

Be about 10am if it's live, by my reckoning - am I right?

It marks the beginning of Christmas as far as I'm concerned. It means "finish off what you're doing and get ready to turn the computer off as soon as you're allowed at 4pm and GO HOME, where are to be found stilton, port, walnuts and beer."
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I must say I'm grateful to see the exclusive use of scriptural readings.

...

Before I was involved there was only one scriptural reading (Luke) and all the rest were secular pieces, often comic, with tangential reference to the Christian faith, if any.

I caused outrage by suggesting that all the readings should be scriptural

That is interesting, because I have taken the opposite tack. In our service, I always include one or two non-Scriptural readings which reflect on the Christian story of Christmas, together with a short "Thought for the Evening". Most people like this, although my organist is not keen.

Although I love the Bible and do believe that the Holy Spirit can speak to people through its public reading, I also feel that the regular Christmas passages have become so familiar that they just flow over people rather than being properly heard. Given that quite a number of non-churchgoers come to our service, I would like to present something that engages with them and hopefully makes them think a bit.
 
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Be about 10am if it's live, by my reckoning - am I right?

It marks the beginning of Christmas as far as I'm concerned.

That's right. It sends chills up my back.

What I and others find especially wonderful are the voices and pronunciations of the readers. Most people around here don't talk like that. Are the readers chosen for their mellifluous voices, or is common to be able to speak like that. [Biased]
 
Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Are the readers chosen for their mellifluous voices, or is common to be able to speak like that.

Of course it's Reading under bright lights in front of cameras not just speaking. I'll bet the readers are rehearsed almost as as much as the choir!

Mostly I find the BBC broadcasts so formulaic that the readings and most of the music just pass me by. I record - except when I forget [Devil] - and fast forward to the next interesting bit.

My AS son just loves the annual repetition though. In fact, he will to the repeat as well.

[ 13. December 2012, 17:11: Message edited by: Morlader ]
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I must say I'm grateful to see the exclusive use of scriptural readings.

I was involved for some years in planning a carol service for a secular group.

Before I was involved there was only one scriptural reading (Luke) and all the rest were secular pieces, often comic, with tangential reference to the Christian faith, if any.

Last year we managed somewhere inbetween, neither scriptual nor secular, we had a piece written by...the Venerable Bede!
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Glad you liked it. I wrote Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer as well, but the Anglo Saxon original has been lost.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Be about 10am if it's live, by my reckoning - am I right?

It marks the beginning of Christmas as far as I'm concerned.

That's right. It sends chills up my back.

What I and others find especially wonderful are the voices and pronunciations of the readers. Most people around here don't talk like that. Are the readers chosen for their mellifluous voices, or is common to be able to speak like that. [Biased]

Well, within Oxbridge. It tends to attract people with posh voices; at least that's how they sound to me having lived north of Watford Gap for nearly all my adult life [Biased]

I think eyebrows would rise at "In th' beginnin' were th'Word, an' th'Word were wi' God, and th'Word were God."
 
Posted by The Riv (# 3553) on :
 
[Killing me]
 
Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Well, within Oxbridge. It tends to attract people with posh voices; at least that's how they sound to me having lived north of Watford Gap for nearly all my adult life [Biased]

It's an odd one, that. In my case, it caused the vowels to travel very notably southwards, by a form of osmosis. I can still "do Cambridge" if required, even 20 years later.
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
[QUOTE]I can still "do Cambridge" if required, even 20 years later.

Which Cambridge tribe would that be Town or Gown?

Being a native east Anglian speaker (Cambridgeshire dialect), I can speak in either and also cross translate.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I thought Cambridge was North of Watford?

Presumably many of the speakers will be students who would have learnt to speak before they came to Cambridge.
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
King's is usually held at 3 pm on Christmas Eve although it's not the only carol service they do like that (or wasn't - perhaps they've changed).

Certainly in the 1970's they used to hold the same service about a week before on a weekday morning. It was known then (I seem to remember, as the "Town" service. All the people leaving the 6th Form that year in all the local schools were invited - I sat near the hig altar in 1976 and heard the incomparable 1st lines of "Once ....."

It used to be a kind of rehearsal for the broadcast on 24th December.

As to the voices of the readers - well, you don't find much of the true (local) Cambridge accent these days. For the townspeople it's mostly morphed into estuary english, even the mayor or local "worthy" who reads in the College on Christmas Eve. Back in the 1970's you often got the true Cambridge accent even from the mayor - but then again, he was a former pupil of my old school "the High." The best place to hear here was is "Little Russia" - Romsey Town, down the end of Mill Road.

[ 15. December 2012, 08:02: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I thought Cambridge was North of Watford?


But not north of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_Gap.

Though admittedly only by a little bit. You all know what I mean though.

Only a reet southern Jessie would think the North began at Watford. As eny fule no, the line starts at the Mersey and runs via the Etherow and the Sheaf, via the Meersbrook and the Shirebrook, and on ultimately to the Humber.

[ 15. December 2012, 09:21: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 
Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You all know what I mean though.

Indeed. Spiritually North of Watford (gap) if not physically.

(I'm sure I qualify as a right Southern Jessie).
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Whatever the accents it is good Kings draws in a variety of readers, from the local and college community.

I am not so sure about the progression from child to dean, as at Kings.

But I do like carol services which have broad in put from the locality and are not just church member readers.

In this way they seem more community owned.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
True - and something perhaps we need to work on at our place, for next year!

Our Lessons & Carols yesterday was a bit of a damp squib. A rather sparse congregation (who all enjoyed it, nonetheless), and we were lacking a couple of families who usually volunteer to help with leading the singing - so we didn't exactly raise the roof. We also discovered, rather too late to change things, that a number of our Scouts would have been able to come along if the service had been next Sunday. We held it a week earlier than usual to avoid overcrowding next weekend, but it appears to have been a tactical error!

Do most people have their main Carol Service on Advent 4, no matter how close to Christmas Eve/Day this may be? ISTM that, around here at any rate, it is The Day For Carol Services That Our Lord And His Blessed Mother Decreed.....

Ian J.
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Here some were yesterday and others are next week. Myself, I'd rather stick to Advent IV whatever happens as I find Advent III a bit too much of an incursion into the Advent season. That said, for the one I officiated at yesterday evening we had pretty much a full church. It wasn't a straight nine lessons and carols but I'd set it up to include an Advent flavour as well before moving to more traditionally Christmas things.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
I think that the problem lies with the calendar. When Christmas Day falls towards the end of the week, you can fairly safely schedule a Carol Service for Advent 4 knowing that the journeying people are unlikely to have started their travels. You may also gain from already-returned students.

On the other hand, when it falls on Monday or Tuesday, then many folk travel on the previous Saturday or Sunday making Advent 4 difficult. You may also lose much-needed musiicans/choristers.

Personally I would prefer to always have the Carol Servce on the Sunday before Cristmas - but one has to be practical. The problem, though, is that the "once a year" folk and visitors always want the service to be close to Christmas, and are totally unaware of the practical issues.

(P.S. In every church I've served in, we've lost people over Christmas. But there must be churches which pick up all these escapees - one hopes!)

We had our "main" service last night FWIW.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
It's a pity people no longer have carol services DURING Christmas,i.e. between Dec 27th and Jan 5th.

We always used to.
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
A carol service in Christmas? Careful now. [Smile]

Sadly by the time Christmas comes around too many people are sick of 'Christmas' including carols. I'd be interested to hear if anybody has managed to get a decent turnout for a later carol concert.
 
Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
True - and something perhaps we need to work on at our place, for next year!

Our Lessons & Carols yesterday was a bit of a damp squib. A rather sparse congregation (who all enjoyed it, nonetheless), and we were lacking a couple of families who usually volunteer to help with leading the singing - so we didn't exactly raise the roof. We also discovered, rather too late to change things, that a number of our Scouts would have been able to come along if the service had been next Sunday. We held it a week earlier than usual to avoid overcrowding next weekend, but it appears to have been a tactical error!

Do most people have their main Carol Service on Advent 4, no matter how close to Christmas Eve/Day this may be? ISTM that, around here at any rate, it is The Day For Carol Services That Our Lord And His Blessed Mother Decreed.....

Ian J.

Interesting question, for the last two years the carol services in my area have almost all been on Advent 4, but this year I would say almost half took place yesterday (though I was amazed to see in the local paper a few weeks ago that there were several schudeled for 9 December!).

I attended a most wonderful service of 9 lessons and carols at St Martin-in-the-Fields - 11 congregational carols, 8 choral pieces, and we all sang the Hallelujah Chorus with a practice before the service started. The church was packed and the atmosphere was fantastic.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
A carol service in Christmas? Careful now. [Smile]

Sadly by the time Christmas comes around too many people are sick of 'Christmas' including carols. I'd be interested to hear if anybody has managed to get a decent turnout for a later carol concert.

I'm trying to round up people for an informal Messiah sing-along for the week after Christmas. I'm a tad worried about running into the "Christmas has ended" dynamic, resulting in yesses now that are no-shows after Christmas.

Some people have the Christmas tree out on the curb as trash by Christmas Day evening. (Trees still bearing light strings and tinsel, ornaments are so cheap these days they aren't worth the time to remove them.)
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Some places have very early carol services because they are in city centres, or in school / university areas and want the carol service before term ends.

I can understand that. I understand some Oxbridge carol services are sometimes even in November.

But then again we don't do this to Easter do we?

I guess carol services a often perceived and planned as a community event rather than a merely local church event, and because 'the world' is busy with Christmas 'do's' thru the first weeks of December then carol services get put in with that kind of approach.

I fear the church has lost on this one - at least for the foreseeable future. I can't see a desire Ito have carol services after Christmas, although was more common in my youth.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Some places have very early carol services because they are in city centres, or in school / university areas and want the carol service before term ends... But then again we don't do this to Easter do we?

I fear the church has lost on this one - at least for the foreseeable future. I can't see a desire Ito have carol services after Christmas, although was more common in my youth.

One commonly expressed reason for setting the carol service early is so many people leave town for Christmas, including the singers!

I've discovered if I knock on a few doors in Advent and offer to join the choir for Christmas week, there are choirs who definitely want some "ringers." The one I'll sing with this Christmas said he isn't sure if he'll have any sopranos Christmas Eve! (I'm to learn both parts so I can sing whichever is needed. It's easy music.)

And yes, Christmas used to continue for several days, almost to New Years.
 
Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
At my place, we did ADVENT Lessons & Carols on Dec. 9, 4 PM. Twas very nice, and well attended despite the lousy foggy drizzly cold weather. The music items were about 50/50 Choir/congo. The Rector should have edited the Bidding Prayer, however- Nativity references were out of place.

And then, we will do CHRISTMAS Lessons & Carols for the Sunday After, in place of the normal Eucharist service. All carols from the '82 Hymnal, as far as I know. Father D loves the L & C format. Choir will do some re-runs, as they have Thurs. night off, for Good Behavior.
 
Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :
 
We did a "different" Advent service on Advent Sunday with a script entitled "Ways to Bethlehem Today"

Went down well.

Bit late now but if anyone wants a sight of it PM me.
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Yes Advent Carol services can be beautiful, and a good way into Advent.

What about Epiphany? Anyone have carol service then? Many of the Christmas carols would work well at Epiphany.
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
I'm generally of the opinion Advent 3 carol services are only permissible when Advent 4 is Christmas Eve, though I've now decided it would have been a good plan when Advent 4 is 2 days before Christmas and you've got the BBC coming for Christmas day. Sunday is going to be fun.

Carys
 
Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Yes Advent Carol services can be beautiful, and a good way into Advent.

What about Epiphany? Anyone have carol service then? Many of the Christmas carols would work well at Epiphany.

Yes, they seem to have grown in popularity and many many churches now have an Epiphany Carol service on the Sunday evening. There are actually enough Epiphany hymns and anthems to make a beautiful service without needing to draw on any of the specific Christmas hymns.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Sadly by the time Christmas comes around too many people are sick of 'Christmas' including carols.

But I'm not. I won't have sung any carols until 11.30pm on Xmas Eve.
 
Posted by Jante (# 9163) on :
 
quote:
It's a pity people no longer have carol services DURING Christmas,i.e. between Dec 27th and Jan 5th.
I work with 10 churches so most are having their Carol services during this week and on Sunday- did my first last night. However we are having a Team Carol service on the 30th in the main church having had an Advent carol service there on Advent 1. Certainly round here the carol service is still a big thing - though possibly outdone for numbers by the Christmas Eve Crib services - there will 6 of those on Christmas Eve across our 10 churches. [Smile]
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Speaking as a chorister, I'll be shattered once Christmas Day is over, so shall be looking forward to a few days off. Please don't give anyone ideas about asking us to sing more Carol services! [Eek!]

What my church does instead is advertise the Daily Eucharists in the week after Christmas as lovely quiet times for people to spend in church after all the mayhem. Sounds like a good idea to me!
 
Posted by mettabhavana (# 16217) on :
 
quote:
I think eyebrows would rise at "In th' beginnin' were th'Word, an' th'Word were wi' God, and th'Word were God."
I think that would be rather fine - especially with "While shepherds watched" to the tune of "On Ilkley Moor"
 
Posted by Traveller (# 1943) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
A carol service in Christmas? Careful now. [Smile]

Sadly by the time Christmas comes around too many people are sick of 'Christmas' including carols. I'd be interested to hear if anybody has managed to get a decent turnout for a later carol concert.

I'm doubly in danger of sounding like a Grumpy Old Man, here.

When I were a lad, many years ago, the church carol service was always the Sunday after Christmas, and one did not sing carols before Christmas Eve. However, the shops and general "mejia" have been playing carols for months, so the arguments about Christmas beginning on Christmas Eve are largely lost on most people these days, particularly those outside the regular churchgoers.

One would hope that churches would hold carol services, not concerts to celebrate the season, however the general public tend to view them?
 
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Yes Advent Carol services can be beautiful, and a good way into Advent.

What about Epiphany? Anyone have carol service then? Many of the Christmas carols would work well at Epiphany.

Yes, they seem to have grown in popularity and many many churches now have an Epiphany Carol service on the Sunday evening. There are actually enough Epiphany hymns and anthems to make a beautiful service without needing to draw on any of the specific Christmas hymns.
Yes, indeed, this is what we do. We don't have a carol service before Christmas but we always mark Epiphany with an evening service and party afterwards. Three members of the congo are recruited to be Wise Men, and carry the figures in procession to the Crib, which is in a picture window so can be seen from outside.

Fortunately in 2013 Epiphany is on 6th January [Smile] .

[ 20. December 2012, 19:10: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Traveller:
However, the shops and general "mejia" have been playing carols for months, so the arguments about Christmas beginning on Christmas Eve are largely lost on most people these days, particularly those outside the regular churchgoers.

One would hope that churches would hold carol services, not concerts to celebrate the season, however the general public tend to view them?

Fair point. Ours is definitely a service: you can't have a choral concert with a choir of 2 people. I believe some churches have both.

I think Advent as a concept has pretty much disappeared from the general non-churchgoing conscience. It's a barbie-themed chocolate calendar rather than preparation for Christmas. I may have whinged on to friends about this at some point. Every Year. [Hot and Hormonal]

quote:
Originally posted by mettabhavana
especially with "While shepherds watched" to the tune of "On Ilkley Moor"

It's a classic, although we've never been brave enough to play it. If you haven't heard it, the Kate Rusby version is a cracker.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Traveller:
When I were a lad, many years ago, the church carol service was always the Sunday after Christmas, and one did not sing carols before Christmas Eve.

When I was a lad (and I'm no spring chicken)the church carol service was the Sunday before Christmas, and school carol services and Nativity plays were before the end of term.

What pine marten describes is a lovely service - however it is a proper mass and procession with clouds and clouds of incense. Just a normal act of Christian worship. The procession is by candlelight.
 
Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Speaking as a chorister, I'll be shattered once Christmas Day is over, so shall be looking forward to a few days off. Please don't give anyone ideas about asking us to sing more Carol services! [Eek!]

What my church does instead is advertise the Daily Eucharists in the week after Christmas as lovely quiet times for people to spend in church after all the mayhem. Sounds like a good idea to me!

Lucky you getting a few days off...

I say to you (in jest incase someone gets the wrong impression!) think of all those poor clergy and sacristans that then have St. Stephen, St. John and the Holy Innocents to deal with, before even dealing with Epiphany and planning for Ash Wednesday and Lent which really are not that far off...
 
Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

What pine marten describes is a lovely service - however it is a proper mass and procession with clouds and clouds of incense. Just a normal act of Christian worship. The procession is by candlelight.

Yes, venbede is right - it is indeed lovely, and there are plenty of Epiphany hymns and carols.

quote:
Originally posted by mettabhavana

especially with "While shepherds watched" to the tune of "On Ilkley Moor"

I love singing this* - we did so a couple of weeks ago at our Richard III Society carol service in Fotheringhay. It's one of the highlights of the service for me, as is singing Adeste Fideles in Latin! Ah... [Smile]

*I am going to try and get our organist to play it thus one day instead of the usual dreary tune.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Traveller:
When I were a lad, many years ago, the church carol service was always the Sunday after Christmas, and one did not sing carols before Christmas Eve. However, the shops and general "mejia" have been playing carols for months, so the arguments about Christmas beginning on Christmas Eve are largely lost on most people these days

You are reminding me, when I was a little lass Santa brought the Christmas tree and put it up on Christmas Eve, along with the stockings, when the kiddies slept. (Funny how tired the parents were Christmas Day.) You are correct, the whole culture has shifted Christmas from starting on Christmas Day, with preparatory work before then (decorating, baking, gift wrapping), to pretty much ending on Christmas Day.

Christmas was also a much smaller holiday. Now it's gotten so huge (and so secular) it swamps Easter.

One church I hang out at has nothing Christmas until Christmas Eve, and most years a caroling event (just carols, not lessons and carols) between the 9 PM and 11 PM services.

Another has one Christmas carol per Sunday in Advent, plus sets the doxology to one of the Christmas carol tunes; Christmas Eve is lessons & carols with holy communion, ending with ye old everyone holds a candle, lights are dimmed but not out Silent Night.
 
Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :
 
I'm not doing a lessons and carols service this year. The "choir" has some badly written, contemporary "cantata" that they wanted to do. I agreed, but got them to agree to do it on the Sunday during Christmas (i.e., the 30th) instead of during Advent. I am going to let the congregation sing several carols during that service as a reward for sitting through the "contata" and for not singing Christmas songs during Advent.

Our Christmas Eve service is vespers with Holy Communion. We'll do an entrance of the light, complete with candles for everyone. They'll go out at the end of the hymn. I wanted to keep them lit a bit longer, but dripping wax becomes a problem, and the next thing on the agenda is a responsive reading, and juggling fire and a hymnal is a good way to have a disaster. Still, the effect will be the same. I thought about doing the candlelight thing after the Communion, but I couldn't think of a good transition. I decided that lighting the Christ candle in the Advent wreath was about as good an opportunity as one could find. Anyway, we'll sing three or four carols at that service, along with the Isaiah 9 and Luke 2 readings and I'll chant the Nunc Dimittis.
 
Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Sadly by the time Christmas comes around too many people are sick of 'Christmas' including carols.

But I'm not. I won't have sung any carols until 11.30pm on Xmas Eve.
I would love to be able to say that, but have lost track of how many carol services I've attended already (and I've missed 3 that have fallen on days off). We have a lot of outside organisations that do their carol services in Advent., though we haven't had carols at the Sunday Eucharist yet I suspect that part of the problem is that many people now go to visit relatives over or just after Christmas so the Sunday after Christmas is very low in attendance which makes having carol services then a real problem, but I would expect the hymns on that day still to be carols (though hopefully outside the standard 5)*

Carys

*O come All ye Faithful
Hark the Herald
Once in Royal
O Little Town
While Shepherds Watched
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
For Christmas 1, we are having the following hymns:

Hark, the herald angels
See him lying on a bed of straw (the Calypso Carol)
Jesus, good above all other
O sing a song of Bethlehem (to the tune Kingsfold, a lovely trad English melody adapted by RVW)

Not carols, exactly, but of the season....

Ian J.
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
With his simple three words

quote:
Not carols exactly
BF raises a question in my mind. What is a carol? Well I have usually associated it with a lighter style than many hymns. But then O Come all ye faithful, and Hark the Herald appear in carol services, and collections of Carols.

Then there are Advent carols, and Epiphany ones (I think).

The Oxford Dictionary - shorter version- defines a Carol as
'A religious folk song or popular hymn, particularly one associated with Christmas'

Fair enough. Presumably the are also 'religious folk songs' associated with other liturgical seasons as well ...
 
Posted by Motr (# 8994) on :
 
I too avoid singing anything Christmassy until the Midnight Eucharist on Christmas Eve. Fortunately, Pinner Parish Church, which is fairly close to me, always has their carol service on the Sunday after Christmas and it is really great to sing carols when it really is Christmas, rather than sometime during Advent. The church is normally packed for it as well.

http://www.pinnerparishchurch.org.uk/
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
What is a carol? Well I have usually associated it with a lighter style than many hymns.

I think I'm right in saying that a carol ought to include dance-like elements - notably absent from "Hark the herald" and "O come all ye faithful".

You could try, I suppose ...
 
Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Motr:
I too avoid singing anything Christmassy until the Midnight Eucharist on Christmas Eve. Fortunately, Pinner Parish Church, which is fairly close to me, always has their carol service on the Sunday after Christmas and it is really great to sing carols when it really is Christmas, rather than sometime during Advent. The church is normally packed for it as well.

http://www.pinnerparishchurch.org.uk/

Excellent. I am glad to see some places maintain this tradtion. I wiill try and come along.

I notice that the Cookham's parish have their carol service on the evening of Christmas Day which I also think is a nice touch.

http://www.holytrinitycookham.org.uk/welcome.htm
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
The trouble with Christmas Day carol services, and indeed with Christmas Day worship, in some places is the total lack of public transport.

In some churches quite a few worshippers use buses to attend.
 
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :
 
The Cambridge one is on right now. It is SO beautiful! [Tear]

Three of my parishoners are dying at the moment (one just died,and the other two are expected later today) and it is very comforting to be riding around to see them and hearing this divine service.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The trouble with Christmas Day carol services, and indeed with Christmas Day worship, in some places is the total lack of public transport.

Or draconian yellow line restrictios and exorbitant 24/7 car parking charges. One of my members actually came out of church a couple of years ago and found that her ar had ben ticketed. She had assumed that charges would not apply. It did rather spoil her Christmas.
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
I'm sure it did. I didn't realise the traffic officers worked on Christmas Day.

The point about radio carol services is a good one. They can be so soothing, and indeed sometimes pastorally helpful and comforting for the housebound too.

The format song /hymn/reading is easy to drift in and out of at home, if you get my meaning.
 
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
I made a point of listening to the whole of Carols from Kings on the radio on Christmas Eve, partly in tribute to my mum who died this year and always maintained that "Christmas starts with the first three notes of Once In Royal at 3pm."

I have to say that for myself Christmas starts long before then (I love it - she didn't) and the time for carol singing is over long before I'm ready for it to be. We also found ourselves watching Carols from Kings at 6.15pm on the TV on Christmas Eve and I much preferred that selection so that may be our tradition from now on. It also provides the opportunity to admire the beautiful chapel and handsome young choristers. [Biased]

Nen - appreciating the beauty of life. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I'm amazed anyone can get their choristers to turn up for a 6pm Carol service on Christmas Day itself!
 
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
I'm amazed if anybody turned up to a carol service on Christmas evening..
 
Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
I used to really look forward to watching the 9 Lessons and Carols from Kings on Christmas Eve in Australia, but sadly this has disappeared from our tv screens over the past couple of years. Enquiries reveal that King's College want too much money to release it for playing in Australia on the ABC which I find very disappointing. We did our own version of the service at my church during Advent in the middle of the afternoon which was dubbed 'carols and cake' as we put on an afternoon tea mainly for the many nursing home residents who attended.
 
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :
 
Christmas does fade rapidly after about 3 pm. A Christmas night Christmas event would be anti-climactic.

Our Christmas morning service was bolstered by the surprise addition of Matthew Rose a bass singing from Handel's Messiah, which he recently sang with the Choir of Kings College. What a great Christmas gift for everyone!
 
Posted by Saviour Tortoise (# 4660) on :
 
We do an Advent Carol Service and a Christmas Carol Service. This year we moved the Advent Carols from Advent 1 to Advent 2, as we decided that there was a limited constituency and it didn't make sense to complete with the local Abbey and Cathedral. I think we take a liturgical defensible position on the Christmas Carol Service timing, tinged with a hint of practicality. That is, we have it on the evening of Advent 4, unless that's Christmas Eve, in which case it gets moved back a week. I don't really like doing that, but I also think practical reality has to have some sort of bearing on these things.
Both services aim for an engaging (we hope!) mix of readings, liturgical material, choral and congregational music. The Christmas Carols format would feel familiar to anyone used to Kings, but with fewer biblical readings (usually 7) and additional poems and other pose. We've also started putting the prayers throughout the service rather than in a big intercessory chunk at the end. (Which I like.)
Whilst I have a lot of sympathy with the "no carols before it's actually Christmas" viewpoint, I think we do have to take account of the secular world. Christmas is a big opportunity for outreach, and secular society thinks Christmas starts at the beginning of December. If we wait until after Christmas to start engaging with them, will miss a big opportunity, I think.
(Edited for typos as usual.)

[ 26. December 2012, 18:37: Message edited by: Saviour Tortoise ]
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
Charging for parking is fairly common around here, but on Sundays and holidays one almost never pays for street parking. The Christmas Day ticket mentioned above was simply cruel.

Emendator, a lot of churches around here have arrangements for free street parking on Sundays and holidays in places where parking is still by fee. Sometimes one must obtain a parking pass from an usher and display it in the car. Perhaps there is a possibility of a limited number of these being allowed. From a public relations standpoint, it would make the city seem a bit less grinchy.

[ 26. December 2012, 21:48: Message edited by: Olaf ]
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
Both churches I went to Christmas Eve had the usual Holy Communion service, usual number of hymns plus one, the extra song was "Silent Night" with the congregation all holding lit candles. (One church had glow sticks for the little kids, nice touch to let them participate without worry.)

One had a Christmas Carols sing-along (led by the Children's choir) between the end of the 7:30 and the start of the 11 o'clock PM services, billed as 10 to 10:30 but continued longer. Just singing, not a service, no lessons.

The other used to do a service of Lessons and Carols on Christmas Eve, to which lots of outsiders looking for a service of lessons and carols used to come. I don't know if that was changed to a regular Holy Communion service this year because the pastor plans on Christmas Eve always being a regular Holy Communion, or if it's just for this year because Sunday, being a 5th Sunday which is always a casual sing-along informal service, is an ideal time to "sing all the carols we know, along with lessons."

Anyway, at least one church in town is doing Lessons and Carols the Sunday after Christmas this year.
 
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :
 
Good to see you, Saviour Tortoise. I think doing the carol service on the evening of Advent 4 works well, and your reasoning is sound. It's a long standing fixed date where you are, as I recall, and after 13 years there it felt fully meet and right.

As long as you keep the Christmas carols out of the Sunday morning services, I think you're on solid ground.

My new shack did nine lessons and carols on the Saturday preceding Advent 4. I'm guessing that's also a long standing tradition. Unfortunately, with the distance between home and church I didn't make either that or the Advent carols this year.
 
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
As long as you keep the Christmas carols out of the Sunday morning services, I think you're on solid ground.

At my church Christmas carols are sung at every service in December.

In fact almost a quarter of all the songs in the hymn book are Christmas songs, so there is a large supply.

People would be quite unhappy if we did not sing them throughout the month.
 
Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
The trouble with Christmas Day carol services, and indeed with Christmas Day worship, in some places is the total lack of public transport.

Or draconian yellow line restrictios and exorbitant 24/7 car parking charges. One of my members actually came out of church a couple of years ago and found that her ar had ben ticketed. She had assumed that charges would not apply. It did rather spoil her Christmas.
That would be awful - I am glad to say that in London, as well as the congestion charge being suspended from Christmas Eve until January 2, parking restrictions are also lifted and not enforced from Christmas Eve until 27th, and on all Sunday and Bank holidays, which makes driving in to attend a special service very pleasant and stress-fress.
 
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
As long as you keep the Christmas carols out of the Sunday morning services, I think you're on solid ground.

At my church Christmas carols are sung at every service in December...
People would be quite unhappy if we did not sing them throughout the month.

The 1940 Episcopalian Hymnal puts Joy to the World in the General Hymns section. The 1982 moves it to Christmas. But that does raise a question which hymns are Christmas by secular expectation instead of by actual words? A song that goes from birth through crucifixion through resurrection and possibly also coming again does not need to be limited to Christmas even though the first verse is birth related.

In the local Methodist church the new pastor allows one Christmas song (or 3 hymns total) each Advent Sunday, the old pastor banned Christmas until the 24th. I can see arguments for both sides. They do the doxology to "O Christmas Tree" all of Advent.
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
In the local Methodist church the new pastor allows one Christmas song (or 3 hymns total) each Advent Sunday, the old pastor banned Christmas until the 24th. I can see arguments for both sides. They do the doxology to "O Christmas Tree" all of Advent.

I've really relaxed "in old age" on the point of Christmas hymns in Advent. On Advent 4, for instance, the First Reading was from Micah ("But you, O Bethlehem"), so we used "O Little Town of Bethlehem" and "Once in Royal David's City." A cheat perhaps, but given that it was December 23 and some of the people there were invariably counting that as "Christmas Church," we thought it to be a decent pastoral compromise. "Joy to the World" is in the Advent section of our hymnal, so we used that somewhere in Advent, too.
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
With some Anglicans keeping Christmas / Epiphany to 2 Feb...when was latest Carol service encountered?

A friend said they had a Christingle at Candlemass...
 
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
With some Anglicans keeping Christmas / Epiphany to 2 Feb...when was latest Carol service encountered?

A friend said they had a Christingle at Candlemass...

I don't think Christingle services are specifically meant as carol services,they can be held any time.
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
But they are strongly associated with Christmas I think.

However I don't know a lot about their history. I thought they were a mid European Protestant Christmas event.

I personally have not come across Christingle services away from Christmas or Epiphany. They do seem moe to do with darkness than a summer evening may permit.

If Carols are in some ways about folksy lighter traditional religious songs then maybe an Easter Carol Service is not a daft idea !
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Percy B:
[qb] With some Anglicans keeping Christmas / Epiphany to 2 Feb...when was latest Carol service encountered?

I don't think we've ever had a carol service as such after about 6pm on Christmas Eve. Carols are sung on Christmas Day, and perhaps on any Sundays that come between Christmas Day and New Year's Eve. After that its wise men and candles for a bit, but not actually babies in mangers.

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
If Carols are in some ways about folksy lighter traditional religious songs then maybe an Easter Carol Service is not a daft idea !

Well, there are Easter carols. Quite a lot of them. But most congregations won't know them.

It does give you the chance to use both Love is come again (which also works at Advent and Christmas) and the Best Traditional Carol Of All, Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day which works at almost any season of the year. Unfortunately the wonderfully bouncy tune just demands to be played in a morris dance style with whistle (or recorder) and drums. And an electric bass. Sorry.
[Razz]
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
I'm sure that the Introduction to the (original) "Oxford Book of Carols" included a plea for Easter carol services.

Anyway, here is something relevant, albeit from a Reformed viewpoint.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
... the (original) "Oxford Book of Carols" ...

[Overused] to Percy Dearmer, Martin Shaw and Ralph Vaughan Williams for their wonderful book, which might not be much use in churches but is one of the greatest contributions ever made to the folk music revival (and perhaps early music as well) Everyone shoudl have a copy [Cool]
 
Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
With some Anglicans keeping Christmas / Epiphany to 2 Feb...when was latest Carol service encountered?

A friend said they had a Christingle at Candlemass...

Well, St Albans Abbey had what they describe as an Epiphany and Candlemas Carol service on 3 February. And St John Chipping Barnet (surely one of the last parish churches with an exclusively male choir?) have an annual Easter Carol Service. I have the service order of hymns and anthems if anyone is interested.
 


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