Ship of Fools: Mystery Worshipper Report Gives Short-Shrift to Local Anglo-Catholic Parishes

Thread: Mystery Worshipper Report Gives Short-Shrift to Local Anglo-Catholic Parishes Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

In the recent report about Church of the Incarnation Dallas (new link), the author contended that this place was about as high as you could get in Texas, save for the very few Anglo-Catholic parishes to be found here and there. This certainly isn't how I recall the Diocese of Dallas and its progeny, the Diocese of Fort Worth. Maybe I'm out of date, as my direct knowledge dates to the early 1980s. In Dallas there was the Rite II Anglo-Catholic parish Holy Cross in Oaklawn. In one of the leafy neighborhoods there was the more liturgically trad St Francis (which I believe left the diocese and joined a schism years ago). Those were the best established, but there were others. Over in Fort Worth there was/is St Timothy's, unfortunately part of the Jack Iker schism and then further schissed by a substantial portion of their membership - including their former clergy - leaving to join the Ordinariate. Other A-C or very high Fort Worth parishes would include St Luke's, Cathedral of St Vincent, All Saints, Holy Apostles, and St Christopher's. Some of these are in the Iker schism and some of them are in the re-established TEC Diocese of Fort Worth. In any event, back in the day, the only parish church in the whole diocese that wasn't either A-C or relatively high was the anamolous St Andrew's, a peculiar bastion of old fashioned evangelical low church, downtown and with very wealthy and mostly aged parishioners.

Back in the early 1980s, Incarnation (Dallas) was going up the candle, but still had an 11:15 at which Choral MP alternated with HC celebrated in surplice and stole, and in Lent the Choral MP was displaced by Litany and Ante-Communion. Always very tasteful but the antithesis of high church.

So can anyone else shed more up to date light on what I believe was a serious micharacterisation of North Texas churchmanship in The Kid's MW report on Church of the Incarnation, Dallas?

[link to MW report corrected]

[ 12. December 2012, 12:52: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Sorry, don't know why my link to the MW report seems to be dead. Perhaps a kindly host can fix it?

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Sorry, don't know why my link to the MW report seems to be dead. Perhaps a kindly host can fix it?

Done and done! [Biased]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Just reading over the OP - surely what you said actually confirms the MW reporter?

S/he says that there are only a handful of AC churches in Texas, and you respond with a list of seven, which over an area the size of which are speaking, is hardly an abundance of riches... even assuming that all of these are still both high and active after all their schisming!

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

Not exactly - She or He suggests there is only one - perhaps 2. But aside from the well known larger AC shacks, I am familiar with clergy in that state who suggest smaller AC parishes are not especially rare.

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Just reading over the OP - surely what you said actually confirms the MW reporter?

S/he says that there are only a handful of AC churches in Texas, and you respond with a list of seven, which over an area the size of which are speaking, is hardly an abundance of riches... even assuming that all of these are still both high and active after all their schisming!

Given the relative rarity of Episcopalians in Texas, though, seven churches in what was a single diocese within living memory is not bad--and I can add from my own knowledge of 20-some years ago St. Barnabas in Denton. When I was there, Denton only had two Episcopal churches. Even Denton's St. David's wouldn't really be considered "Low"--probably upper MOTR.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Just reading over the OP - surely what you said actually confirms the MW reporter?

S/he says that there are only a handful of AC churches in Texas, and you respond with a list of seven, which over an area the size of which are speaking, is hardly an abundance of riches... even assuming that all of these are still both high and active after all their schisming!

Well, I was only referring to the adjacent cities of Dallas and Fort Worth. Dallas has historically had other A-C parishes but I no longer know their status. The Diocese of Dallas was, in fact, an historically Anglo-Catholic diocese, from which the Diocese of Forth Worth was carved out around 1981. The latter, if anything, in modern times was generally characterised by more Anglo-Catholicism than Dallas.

An irony is that Incarnation in the early 1980s was perhaps the last parish in Dallas that still had any sort of low church offereings at all -- the late morning service for a constituency of largely over-60s, whilst it's earlier services were strictly MOTR to highish Eucharists.

With one exception in the City of Fort Worth itself, that entire diocese is characterised by vestments, reservation of the MBS, at least periodic use of incense, Sung Eucharist as the normative service on Sundays and holy days, and a high doctrine of the sacraments.

However, it has been true IME that the most advanced A-C practices such as Benediction of the MBS and corporate rosary have been restricted to only a few parishes, and some places tend to be the province of guilds like the Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament or the Society of Mary.

If you only count parishes that have solemn high mass as the principal Sunday service, you are indeed going to come up on the shorter end (the smaller parishes aren't, of course, going to have sufficient clergy to do a solemn mass).

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
... With one exception in the City of Fort Worth itself, that entire diocese is characterised by vestments, reservation of the MBS, at least periodic use of incense, Sung Eucharist as the normative service on Sundays and holy days, and a high doctrine of the sacraments.

Excuse my ignorance of things Episcopal, but I thought most TEC parishes fit the above description nowadays with the possible exception of the "high doctrine of the sacraments." Do I misunderstand the situation?

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Well, New Yorker, in the Diocese of Texas (the remainder of the original diocese from which all the other ones in the State ultimately came), public reservation of the MBS was relatively rare the last I knew. There were some places that reserved, but many or most did not, at least in a tabernacle with light. Eucharistic vestments are worn most places there, though oftentimes not during Lent, when they revert to surplice and stole. In the Diocese of Texas, bishops - the Ordinary or any of the suffragans or assisting bishops - more often than not are vested only in episcopal choir dress when they celebrate the Eucharist, and one just about never sees a mitre, although this latter has apparently changed to some extent with the most recent Ordinary. I have never seen Benediction committed in the Diocese of Texas. The ethos is really quite different to the two North Texas dioceses (Diocese of Texas See City is Houston). The geographically misnamed Diocese of West Texas, its See at San Antonio, is about the same as the Diocese of Texas, though San Antonio itself has one moderate A-C parish, St Paul's Greyson Street. The Diocese of Northwest Texas (See at Lubbock -- was originally at Amarillo)used to be rather more high church than Texas or West Texas, but I'd be completely unable to say anymore. Finally, a bit of the Diocese of the Rio Grande (See at Albuquerque, NM) extends into the Trans-Pecos area of Texas (indeed there used to be a pro-cathedral in El Paso, whose congregation seceded from the diocese many years ago now), and it's apparently all over the map theologically and liturgically.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Is this another pond difference (and an antipodeal vs. UK one) that Anglican dioceses seem so heavily weighted in one direction or another? In the C of E, though some have a predominant flavour (eg Southwark Lib-Cath; Liverpool Low; London trad-Cath, etc) parishes of all types are represented throughout. Predominantly rural dioceses I suppose tend to be predominantly MOTR for obvious reasons. But there are no no-go areas anywhere for any style of churchpersonship.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

My perception is that many dioceses do have a predominant style, and certainly many can be at least characterised as predominantly (or even entirely) MOTR, Low, or High. Of course, there are going to be gradations, so that a largely High Church diocese will shade from MOTR-High to Advanced Anglo-Catholic, whilst a Lowish diocese will shade from frankly low to MOTR-Low, though TBH, I'm not sure these days that any diocese would overall be characterised as lower than MOTR-Low. Dioceses like New York seem to have a bit of everything, but as is the American style, with highish tending to be more common than frankly low.

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

I lived in Dallas from 2001 to 2004 and always thought that Holy Cross was the highest church in the Diocese.

I would agree that Incarnation was moving up the candle, but when I moved away bells and incense weren't a regular feature at Incarnation as they were at HC. HC was also more AffCath than Incarnation.

Should add that I only went to Incarnation for a few Ash Wednesday services (as I worked on the other side of Central Expressway at ACS) and my impression was that it was very old money conservative. I went to a few HC services but it didn't take.

My parish home was at the Rite I service at St. Michael and All Angels University Park until things got acrimonious after VGR election, then dropped out of church altogether until I left.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

St Michael and All Angels used to have the largest membership in the diocese, with 7,000 on the rolls there. I believe Incantation only had 5,000. Agree about the old money but is that not also true of St Mike's?

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

Interesting, LSK. I really thought most if not all TEC parishes were now at least Eucharist every Sunday with vestments, etc. Of course, my knowledge of TEC is limited.

Thanks again.

[ 12. December 2012, 23:51: Message edited by: New Yorker ]

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
St Michael and All Angels used to have the largest membership in the diocese, with 7,000 on the rolls there. I believe Incantation only had 5,000. Agree about the old money but is that not also true of St Mike's?

That is true. The +V Gene Robinson election had a big effect on SMAA as the rector, Mark Anschutz, had voted for his consecration splitting the Diocese of Dallas vote. This led to tension and acrimony from some parishioners and a resulting exodus of people on both sides of the issue. (That's when I left even though I agreed with him.) Anschultz retired and they called a more conservative priest, but attendance and giving hasn't recovered.

Incarnation is going through a growth spurt as that part of Dallas became more urbanized and densely populated. New mixed-use "urban village" communities (condos/restaurants) like Cityplace, West Village and Mockingbird Station were built or expanded to the north and east of the parish and downtown has itself more residential. The church created outreach ministries (theology on tap, etc.) that have brought in new members.

I think the total membership numbers are still far apart between the two, but last I had read, they are almost equal in Sunday attendance (ASA). Incarnation is also a bit less white "old money" than it used to be and more diverse because of this influx.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

My issue with the OP would be the rather curious use of the word schism in a variety of sentences.

Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :

I note Incarnation's organist comes most recently from Washington cathedral, and before that from Anglo-Catholic bastions St Paul's K Street and St mark's Philadelphia.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
My issue with the OP would be the rather curious use of the word schism in a variety of sentences.

Without casting aspersions on anyones' sincere motives, if a diocese (e.g. the diocese of Fort Worth TX) leaves the body of which they have been a constituent part (e.g. TEC) to join another body (e.g. a Continuing Anglican communion), this seems to me to be a textbook example of schism.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

But i realise the above tangent was purgatorial rather than ecclesiantical in nature.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Indeed... a debate about the nature of 'schism' would sound to be rather, ahem, divisive. Possibly better treated in Purgatory than in these tranquil waters!

Your cooperation appreciated as ever...

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Back on topic, I know there used to be a parish out in Oak Cliff (as opposed to Oaklawn) that was an Anglican Missal place. Then more interior of Dallas, St John's and Transfiguration were both A-Cish places at one time. Again, have no idea of their current status (I'm too lazy to google these places, apparently). There was also once upon a time a little mission called Church of the Good Samaritan that was seriously Anglo-Catholic and actually probably the highest place in the diocese (the vicar back in the 1970s had grown up in Anglo-Catholic St Timothy's Fort Worth). Anyway, I'm still trying to get my head round The Kid's assertion that Anglo-Catholic places are rarities locally, making Incarnation the highest place around (in fairness, he generalised to Texas as a whole, which would be true for the State in general, but not for Dallas and Fort Worth, certainly not historically anyway). So the question remains as to whether things have greatly changed in the past thirty years, or alternatively whether the assertion was simply inaccurate.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Interesting, LSK. I really thought most if not all TEC parishes were now at least Eucharist every Sunday with vestments, etc. Of course, my knowledge of TEC is limited.

Thanks again.

New Yorker, I think it has much more to do with the house style than with the weekly offering of the Eucharist at the principal service time, or the use of Eucharistic vestments, per se. However, I think there are still some places that are happy to displace the 11:00 Eucharist once (or - heavens! - even twice) a month in favour of a choral mattins. Indeed, in the historically low church Diocese of Delaware, the nearest parish church to me has choral mattins once a month at their 11:00. Of course, that still leaves them with two or three Eucharists earlier and later in the day. Interestingly, back when I lived in that neck of the woods, there were a few high church places in Dallas-Fort Worth that would have the occasional "Frankenmass", combining choral mattins with the Eucharist.

[ 13. December 2012, 13:03: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

I think that there are a few TEC places here in NYC that alternate Mattins and Eucharist as the main service on Sunday. I just thought that they were the exception rather than the rule.

May I ask for the liberty of a small tangent? Only because I don't think it warrants its own thread?

If I were visiting Dallas what would be a good RC parish to attend? Good as in good music and well done liturgy. I was last there about 10 years ago and there was one parish I attended that was rather nice. I just don't recall its name. Thanks for the indulgence.

[ 13. December 2012, 13:27: Message edited by: New Yorker ]

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

I had attended Christ the King Catholic Church on a few occasions and found the liturgy and music to be quite good.

It is just a few blocks from SMAA where I attended. Both parishes would occasionally get together for joint non-Eucharistic services.

Posted by Cruet (# 14586) on :

Fr. Paul Pritchard, the rector responsible for
Incarnation's rise up the candle passed away recently.

Posted by Cruet (# 14586) on :

More AC parishes in Dallas:
Holy Nativity, Christ Church, St. John's
St. Matthias and probably others.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

New Yorker, St Thomas Aquinas used to have perhaps the premier music program not only amongst Dallas RC parishes but Dallas churches generally. I would expect them to have maintained a high standard in music and liturgy.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Thanks, Cruet. This would all seem to suggest that The Kid wasn't very well informed about the A-C scene in DFW.

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

Thanks, LSK. It was St. Thomas Aquinas. I recognize the church building on its website. Rather good music there, albeit 10 or so years ago.

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cruet:
More AC parishes in Dallas:
Holy Nativity, Christ Church, St. John's
St. Matthias and probably others.

All good examples, though should add that St. Matthias left the TEC for the Southern Cone via the Anglican (separated) Diocese of Ft. Worth. The rest are still TEC, though St. John's and Holy Nativity were wavering at one point.

It is an interesting cultural difference that A-C churches on the coasts tend to be AffCath but in Texas tend to be conservative.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Just reading over the OP - surely what you said actually confirms the MW reporter?

S/he says that there are only a handful of AC churches in Texas, and you respond with a list of seven, which over an area the size of which are speaking, is hardly an abundance of riches... even assuming that all of these are still both high and active after all their schisming!

This was also my reaction. I have been told that Dallas is the american city/town with most churches per citizen.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Well, it's only relevant to look at the number of A-C or high church Anglican/Episcopal parishes as a subset of the total number of Anglican parishes. You aren't comparing their numbers to Southern Baptists or Methodists.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I think that there are a few TEC places here in NYC that alternate Mattins and Eucharist as the main service on Sunday. I just thought that they were the exception rather than the rule.

I'd say you are right on both counts, New Yorker. Grace Church on B'way below 14th St. is maybe the most famous exception. Alo St. Thomas on 5th Ave., although on the Sundays when Choral Mattins is the main service, it is, I believe a frankenmass.

And in both churches, in any case, there are plenty of eucharistic opportunities.

[ 14. December 2012, 02:43: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by Cruet (# 14586) on :

St. Thomas NYC has a Frankenmass once a quarter.
I believe Grace Church in NYC is the last hold out for Morning Prayer at the main service.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

Grace Church could be seen as one of the the lowest Churches in the Diocese of New-York. However compared with the churches in the Diocese of London, I would call it conservative
Middle of the Road.
I would regard Grace Church as a traditional Prayer Book Parish, after having seen their Easterday Eucharist.
Ad Orientem position of the celebrant in surplice and stole.
Excellent music,all the same a very attractive TEC parish church,
parish.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Grace Church, NYC is the sort of place where I am comfortable, which makes me think that it is neither Low nor aggressively Liberal. It certainly ain't High which leaves old-fashioned Broad Church. That's kind of the trajectory it has been on since Potter was rector there in the late 19th C..

PD

PD

Posted by mettabhavana (# 16217) on :

quote:
neither Low nor aggressively Liberal ... old-fashioned Broad Church

Excellent! It's high time for a Revival of that churchmanship.

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