Thread: Non Anglo-Catholic ABC parishes Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
Is it just me or is it usual in the Church of England for parishes that have ratified the Three Resolutions (which this topic is not meant to discuss) tend also to be ones featuring thurible-swinging, bells, genuflexions, elevations, and other things the English Reformation largely did away with?

There is only one parish I can think of in Bristol where I live which is not Anglo-Catholic and even they have *high* elements - aside from strict adherence to 1662, the priest also faces toward the east and wears a chasuble, which I am not at all fond of.

Is there just not much provision for the moderate Churchman under the Three Resolutions, or must he grin and bear Anglo-Catholic worship, which seems often to be contrary to English Protestant theology?
 
Posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic (# 12722) on :
 
S. George Gateshead is conservative evangelical - north scarf, black end, &c. They have passed Resolutions A and B and have petitioned their diocesan bishop for the extended episcopal care of the Bishop of Beverley.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I'd say that the ABC parishes include a good mix of Anglo-catholic 'brands' (though heavily leaning towards 'modern Roman Catholic'), plus a few Reform-style old-fashioned conservative Evangelicals and one or possibly two charismatic parishes.

I'm not aware of anywhere with anything approaching 'moderate churchmanship' with the resolutions in place... and would be surprised if there were. Why would a mainstream C of E parish object to such a mainstream Anglican practice as the ordination of women? (not wishing to touch on the Dead Horse, of course).
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
There is a parish nearby me in Creamtealand which will still not allow women priests to celebrate - it is conservative/charismatic evangelical.
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:

http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html

It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Why would a mainstream C of E parish object to such a mainstream Anglican practice as the ordination of women? (not wishing to touch on the Dead Horse, of course).

I'm trying to think of any 'Central Churchmanship' parishes that have passed C but Shipmate PD is of that theological bent, as is the whole of his UECNA, so "old-fashioned central churchmen" are not universally 'liberal'.

Thurible
 
Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :
 
I was incumbent of a MOTR 'C' parish a few years ago. We had a Sung Eucharist/Parish Communion with vestments, but no reservation, and incense only at Midnight Mass. I would label the place 'Prayer Book Catholic', though we were Rite B/CW trad, with BCP on a weekday.

Prior to 'C' the parish was in constant default on Quota: while we were 'C' the Diocesan Quota was paid faithfully. After I left the resolutions were all rescinded, churchmanship rocketed skywards, and they defaulted on Quota again!
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There is a parish nearby me in Creamtealand which will still not allow women priests to celebrate - it is conservative/charismatic evangelical.

That's not uncommon in Evangelical churches, but they usually only pass resolutions A & B. It's unusual to find an Evangelical place that has passed resoltion C.

One exception to this I believe is St Nick's, Tooting in South London.

[ 05. February 2013, 09:40: Message edited by: Spike ]
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
Our parish does have vestments and the clergy do face east,but we do not reserve or elevate, genuflect or have incense, invoke the saints or pray for the dead, and BCP is used at the Sung Eucharist.

But the only requirement for clergy seems to be that they have conservative views. So you can go to Evensong one week and hear about how Christians don't have priests or make sacrifices, and the next about the hallowed Apostolic succession... just as long as the preacher remembers to slash off General Synod.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Sounds positively poisonous to me.
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sounds positively poisonous to me.

Then it must be good!
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Sounds positively poisonous to me.

Then it must be good!
Bizarre reasoning. A shack where the only distinctive common teaching is apparently "we hate the general synod" sounds pretty toxic to me.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I know of some conservative evangelical ABC parishes (Sussex and Northampton) but no MOTR ones.
 
Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
....just as long as the preacher remembers to slash off General Synod.

I declined to let our gaff become a shelter for such an outlook, and forfeited support as a result.
Was I bovvered? [Big Grin]

[ 05. February 2013, 11:33: Message edited by: Oferyas ]
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Indeed. Tendencies that way can be dangerous. There were several people who left one particular parish in Chichester diocese because the parish priest went on and on and on about how wrong General Synod was. The people who left agreed with him but were bored by its tedious repetition.

I'm sure there must be parishes that think that General Synod votes are generally positive - but I have to say I've never knowingly worshipped in one!

Thurible
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Ah, I'd forgotten St Margaret, Iver Heath.

Thurible
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
... I'm sure there must be parishes that think that General Synod votes are generally positive - but I have to say I've never knowingly worshipped in one!

I'd be really worried about a parish that was seriously excited by the doings of General Synod. The recent vote on women bishops is the only thing that's happened in General Synod since the previous vote on women priests that I can recall anyone being interested in at all. Everything else, whether clergy pension schemes, the covenant, authorising experimental services or whatever, might as well not have happened, and I think that's healthy.
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
We are steering off topic a bit, but I for one am glad Synod and the Bishops have gone back to boring things so we can start talking about the Gospel of God again.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
There is a parish nearby me in Creamtealand which will still not allow women priests to celebrate - it is conservative/charismatic evangelical.

But is it actually ABC?

Most evangelical parishes round here have women priests. But it is rumoured that some of those that don't never will - but they aren't ABC either. They are trusting in the combination of co-operative patrons and their parish veto to ensure that they only get men. Just as they trust in those to ensure they only get evangelicals of the right sort.


quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:

http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html

It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.

Dunno about their churchmanship, but their website crashed my browser.


quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Our parish does have vestments and the clergy do face east,but we do not reserve or elevate, genuflect or have incense, invoke the saints or pray for the dead, and BCP is used at the Sung Eucharist. But the only requirement for clergy seems to be that they have conservative views.

Your parish? So this thread isn't so much a discussion about non-Anglo-Catholic dewomanised parishes, as a sort of advert for your own church?
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Doesn't look like much of an advert for it to me, ken. Warning sign, maybe.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:

http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html

It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.

I guessed that was the church you were referring to in the OP. They first passed the resolutions when St. Michael on the Mount (part of 'our' empire, originally) closed and the congregation moved to St. Stephen's, which then went into interregnum. The parish profile of St. Stephen's said it was open to a woman priest so Christ Church, which had been linked with St. Stephens way back when Bishop Tinsley wanted to close them down (but couldn't, since both have large endowments so could declare UDI) decoupled itself.

Churches change over the years - the passing of the resolutions would have attracted discontents from other churches, as did All Saints' Clifton which used to be fairly 'liberal').

Given that the priest in charge of both places has recently retired, both churches will have to debate the resolutions again.

PipN Jay was also a resolution ABC and under the care of Ebsfleet - and that is charismatic evangelical. It ceases to advertise in the FiF tabloid so it has, perhaps, rescinded the resolutions.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Given that the priest in charge of both places has recently retired, both churches will have to debate the resolutions again.

I think it's the case that they need to decide whether they want to debate them, but my memory may be confuddled.

Thurible
 
Posted by The Man with a Stick (# 12664) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

Given that the priest in charge of both places has recently retired, both churches will have to debate the resolutions again.

I think it's the case that they need to decide whether they want to debate them, but my memory may be confuddled.

Thurible

Pretty much every PCC (including those with no resolutions, including those where the departing incumbent is female) need to consider the resolutions at their "Section 11" (vacancy) meeting. "Consider" does not mean "debate". I have been on PCCs (both with and without resoltions) where the consideration basically consisted of "everybody happy? yes? OK. Minuted".
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
A gentle reminder to all posters that the OP was about the worship practices of ABC parishes. If you move on to debating church politics (including attitudes towards the General Synod) or the resolutions as such (including when in the life of a parish they might have to be debated), this thread could find itself moved or closed.

seasick, Eccles host
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
St Michael's Cornhill, in the City of London, strikes me as the sort of place that (under the previous incumbent at any rate) would be a MOTR Resolutions parish. I don't know about the C bit (but in the diocese of London that is probably academic); I'm pretty sure they would be A and B. Very conservative in most respects, liturgical, political and theological. So-called Prayer Book worship with a few high-church trimmings (so a bit like the Bristol church) but definitely not 'Anglo-Catholic'.
 
Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
S Michael's Cornhill hasn't passed any of the Resolutions, just very conservative and bizarre in their worship practices. BCP (but not always by the book) but a *Tridentine Mass* on occasions. I'm not sure how those two go together...
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Even more bizarre than I thought!
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
I wonder if there are some evangelical places where women may celebrate but not lead or be bishops, now what's that resolution status.
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
S Michael's Cornhill hasn't passed any of the Resolutions, just very conservative and bizarre in their worship practices. BCP (but not always by the book) but a *Tridentine Mass* on occasions. I'm not sure how those two go together...

A silent war between the vicar and his curate?
 
Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I wonder if there are some evangelical places where women may celebrate but not lead or be bishops, now what's that resolution status.

They certainly exist. I've heard of parishes that have passed only Resolution B.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
A PDF of Cornhill's Holy Communion service, "based closely on the BCP".

I'm still struggling to think of any that have actually passed all three resolutions but there are a few in Chichester who simply haven't bothered, as it were.

All Saints, Ryde, was one such but they've recently rescinded (after the Vicar left them for the Ordinariate).

Thurible
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
All Saints Clifton is Anglo Catholic but the resolutions are being voted on again soon. The previous incumben called himself Father at one parish and Richard at the other.
 
Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
A silent war between the vicar and his curate?

I don't think so. I think it was just what Peter Mullen, the previous incumbent, came up with.

This, from their parish profile: "The congregation is devoted to the use of the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible in services (except on infrequent occasions, such as the feast of Corpus Christi, when a Latin (Tridentine) mass is occasionally used). While the church is firmly in the category of the High Church, incense is not used."

How do you do Corpus Christi without incense?!

Also this: "Although the PCC has never debated the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure, and therefore has no formal objection to female candidates, the parish has a certain conservatism in such matters"

I'm not sure if that will actually make any difference...
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
A silent war between the vicar and his curate?

I don't think so. I think it was just what Peter Mullen, the previous incumbent, came up with.

This, from their parish profile: "The congregation is devoted to the use of the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible in services (except on infrequent occasions, such as the feast of Corpus Christi, when a Latin (Tridentine) mass is occasionally used). While the church is firmly in the category of the High Church, incense is not used."

How do you do Corpus Christi without incense?!

Also this: "Although the PCC has never debated the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure, and therefore has no formal objection to female candidates, the parish has a certain conservatism in such matters"

I'm not sure if that will actually make any difference...

Apart from the fact that the language of the Tridentine Mass is completely opposed to Prayer Book theology (indeed it was largely designed for this purpose).
 
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
A silent war between the vicar and his curate?

I don't think so. I think it was just what Peter Mullen, the previous incumbent, came up with.

This, from their parish profile: "The congregation is devoted to the use of the Book of Common Prayer and the King James Bible in services (except on infrequent occasions, such as the feast of Corpus Christi, when a Latin (Tridentine) mass is occasionally used). While the church is firmly in the category of the High Church, incense is not used."

How do you do Corpus Christi without incense?!

Also this: "Although the PCC has never debated the Priests (Ordination of Women) Measure, and therefore has no formal objection to female candidates, the parish has a certain conservatism in such matters"

I'm not sure if that will actually make any difference...

Apart from the fact that the language of the Tridentine Mass is completely opposed to Prayer Book theology (indeed it was largely designed for this purpose).
The Prayer Book liturgy that they use is available on the parish website. It's hardly a standard 1662 affair...
 
Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
They're obviously keen on the Prayer Book. Their Mission Action Plan directly links abandonment of the BCP with the demise of the Church of England. No joke.

"The Church of England as an institution has not recognised the anti Christian nature of the new doctrine and has sought to accommodate itself to it and reinterpret Christian truth accordingly.
The abandonment of the Book of Common Prayer was a key part of this accommodation and reinterpretation. It has led to accelerating
institutional collapse."

That, to me, is as nuts as anything the KJV-only brigade spout.

There's also that nagging doubt in the back of my mind about that Tridentine Mass (no incense)...
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
But Peter Mullen was/is pretty widely recognised as being, at best, um, rather eccentric, is/wasn't he?
 
Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
At best, yes.
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Apart from the fact that the language of the Tridentine Mass is completely opposed to Prayer Book theology (indeed it was largely designed for this purpose).

Isn't that rather an Anglocentric perspective on the Council of Trent?
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
All Saints Clifton is Anglo Catholic but the resolutions are being voted on again soon. The previous incumbent called himself Father at one parish and Richard at the other.

All Saints PCC met last night to 'move' a vote in the future but only after a day conference involving everyone in the congregation. If they have any sense, they will keep the resolutions - otherwise they don't 'merit' a full time incumbent and will probably be 'pastorally reorganised' i.e. merged into a geographically neighbouring parish.

The recently-retired incumbent was happy with either of the designations above but loathed 'Father Rickard' - I only discovered that after he left and have always called him that.

Re- PipNJay, one of the retired clergy at All Saints informed me last night that they passed only one of the resolutions but since the conversation was mainly about another matter, I can't remember which resolution it was.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Sorry re-previous post - was reading backwards so hadn't seen host's plea/comm,and.

So, bringing it back to 'worship practices' but without resorting to gossip, I reckon that an anglo-catholic parish such as mentioned above which rescinds the resolutions will no longer look anglo-catholic. Whilst some in the pews might not even know what the resolutions mean, altar servers, already in very short supply, tend to be more clued up and more likely to leave in search of another church which has kept the resolutions.

[ 06. February 2013, 12:15: Message edited by: leo ]
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The recently-retired incumbent was happy with either of the designations above but loathed 'Father Rickard' - I only discovered that after he left and have always called him that.

Is that a typo and he disliked the, perfectly standard, "Father Richard"? If not, I can understand why Fr Hoyal might object to being called Fr Rickard.

Thurible
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
I call him Richard because he told me he was 'too old' to be called Father. I still don't understand what he meant. Rnd they will drop the resolutions and you can bet it will be like St Paul's down the road in a few months' time.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Apart from the fact that the language of the Tridentine Mass is completely opposed to Prayer Book theology (indeed it was largely designed for this purpose).

Isn't that rather an Anglocentric perspective on the Council of Trent?
Fog in the Channel- Continent cut off!
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

So, bringing it back to 'worship practices' but without resorting to gossip, I reckon that an anglo-catholic parish such as mentioned above which rescinds the resolutions will no longer look anglo-catholic. Whilst some in the pews might not even know what the resolutions mean, altar servers, already in very short supply, tend to be more clued up and more likely to leave in search of another church which has kept the resolutions.

This is to suggest that altar servers and others who are clued up about liturgical practice are more likely to be anti-OoW. I don't know the parish so you may be right in that case, but it's hardly a reasonable assumption generally.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Certainly not in parishes where at least half the servers are female, as has been the case in all the churches of which I've been a member for the past twenty years.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The recently-retired incumbent was happy with either of the designations above but loathed 'Father Rickard' - I only discovered that after he left and have always called him that.

Is that a typo and he disliked the, perfectly standard, "Father Richard"? If not, I can understand why Fr Hoyal might object to being called Fr Rickard.

Thurible

sorry - you must be used to my typos by now.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I call him Richard because he told me he was 'too old' to be called Father. I still don't understand what he meant. Rnd they will drop the resolutions and you can bet it will be like St Paul's down the road in a few months' time.

Well it will, won't it - because the last proposal from the previous archdeacon was to amalgamate the two parishes.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Certainly not in parishes where at least half the servers are female, as has been the case in all the churches of which I've been a member for the past twenty years.

Well, Many female servers oppose the OOW – that’s why they go to FiF churches
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I call him Richard because he told me he was 'too old' to be called Father. I still don't understand what he meant. Rnd they will drop the resolutions and you can bet it will be like St Paul's down the road in a few months' time.

Oh - and what's wrong with S. Paul's? Or would you rather All Saints became more like Christ Church?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Leo, if someone wants to leavfe a parish for no other reason than that because that parish recognises ordained women, surely its better that they go?

You seem to be saying that the "Catholic" nature of a church depends on having servers who can get the minutiae of ritual just right; so you would sacrifice any principles to keep them on board.
 
Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
I'm still not sure where this servers issue comes in. Is the point that churches more likely to oppose OOW are more likely to have altar servers, or that in any church servers are more likely to oppose OOW. I can possibly see the former, but not the latter.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
But the GSS are anti-OoW, aren't they? Isn't there also an alternative body (the Company of Servers?) which is more Aff-Cath, SCP?
 
Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
Yes, Company of Servers are AffCath - Dean of Southwark the VR Andrew Nunn is Chaplain General of the CoS and Chair of Ath Cath...and Rector General of the Society of Catholic Priests for good measure!
 
Posted by PaulTH* (# 320) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
St Michael's Cornhill, in the City of London, strikes me as the sort of place that (under the previous incumbent at any rate) would be a MOTR Resolutions parish.

I was a regular at St Michael's, Cornhill from 1999 until 2005, and was on its PCC for most of that time. No resolutions were ever passed, unlike its neighbouring parish, St James, Garlickhythe, whic was Resolution A and B, and also a Prayer Book church. Resolution C was never thought necessary for churches under the direct oversight of the Bishop of London, who doesn't ordain women, or men, for that matter. Although the words used at St Michael's were always Prayer Book, as it was a choral church which always used Mass settings by the great composers, the order of the service was rejigged to follow the Western Rite, so that, musically, the order would be kyrie eleison, gloria, credo, sanctus and agnus dei . The Tridentine Rite was something the incumbant liked to do once a year on Corpus Christi, though he would sometimes do it on a weekday Mass when few people were present.

It was during my time there that I was moving ever higher up the candle, which was why I eventually left. Some of us persuaded the PCC to allow the use of the sanctus bell, which the incumbant wanted, but others opposed it. They wouldn't tolerate votive candles, or procession of the Bread and Wine, which I tried to push for. The Drapers' Company had a permanent seat on the PCC, and had to approve of the incumbant, which meant a strong Protestant tradition. I wouldn't tolerate a word of criticism of Dr Peter Mullen. His sermons were the sharpest and most apt in the whole of London. He presided over a theologically informed congregation, and raised the numbers from less than 10 to a regular weekly congregation of 50-70, one of whom came by Eurostar from Paris once a month.

It was when I became more involved wth Forward in Faith, and joined several of the Catholic societies of the C of E that I realised that, although the incumbant had many fine Catholic ideals, the church was stuck in a long standing City of London tradition which would never allow it to move in the direction I wanted to go in.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Yes, Company of Servers are AffCath - Dean of Southwark the VR Andrew Nunn is Chaplain General of the CoS and Chair of Ath Cath...and Rector General of the Society of Catholic Priests for good measure!

That is what I think the French would call le Cumul des Mandats
 
Posted by Aggie (# 4385) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I wonder if there are some evangelical places where women may celebrate but not lead or be bishops, now what's that resolution status.

They certainly exist. I've heard of parishes that have passed only Resolution B.
Yes indeed they do. Many Anglican chaplaincies abroad, such as those in Spain are usually Resolution B for ecumenical reasons, as most Anglican congregations over there do not have their own buildings, so they "borrow" (with permission from the local diocesan bishop of course!) a local RC church or chapel for worship and the celebration of the Eucharist.

I notice that most Anglican chaplaincies in Europe are fairly MOTR, and neither very Low nor very High in their churchmanship. Although I could be wrong!

[ 07. February 2013, 12:04: Message edited by: Aggie ]
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I'm still not sure where this servers issue comes in. Is the point that churches more likely to oppose OOW are more likely to have altar servers, or that in any church servers are more likely to oppose OOW. I can possibly see the former, but not the latter.

The point I was trying to make was about a particular church, most of whose servers I know personally. Many of them are opposed to the OOW and would leave if the resolutions were rescinded.

There would not be enough serves left to 'staff' a solemn mass. (As it is they already find it difficult to do so).

Of course, in time, new ones might be attracted.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Leo, if someone wants to leavfe a parish for no other reason than that because that parish recognises ordained women, surely its better that they go?

You seem to be saying that the "Catholic" nature of a church depends on having servers who can get the minutiae of ritual just right; so you would sacrifice any principles to keep them on board.

I agree with you entirely - but - this thread is about whether the resolutions apply to churchpersonships other than anglo-catholic.

I have spent nearly 50 years in the catholic wing of the C of E so I think i understand how it works.

For me, 'catholic' is about doctrine, not about dressing up. I use the term 'high church' (inaccurately) as a term of disdain for the dressers-up but it is a fact that city anglo-catholic churches attract an eclectic congregation, many of whom come for the incense and wouldn't know what an immaculate conception was if it hit them in the face.

[ 07. February 2013, 12:34: Message edited by: leo ]
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:

http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html

It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.

On reflection, this church is an example of the sort of non-anglo-cats who pass the resolutions.

In recent years, it seems to be a bit jingoistic. Two friends of mine refer to its last priest-in-charge as 'the mad mullah' because he keeps Trafalgar Day. And i bet they kept Betty's accession yesterday, too.
 
Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

So, bringing it back to 'worship practices' but without resorting to gossip, I reckon that an anglo-catholic parish such as mentioned above which rescinds the resolutions will no longer look anglo-catholic. Whilst some in the pews might not even know what the resolutions mean, altar servers, already in very short supply, tend to be more clued up and more likely to leave in search of another church which has kept the resolutions.

This is to suggest that altar servers and others who are clued up about liturgical practice are more likely to be anti-OoW. I don't know the parish so you may be right in that case, but it's hardly a reasonable assumption generally.
It seems to me that leo is using Anglo-Catholic to mean 'conservative' catholic-minded Anglicans, while 'liberal' catholic-minded Anglicans are called Aff Caths/Affirming Catholics.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I don't mean to use 'anglo-catholic' merely of conservative parishes. To do so would undermine my own claim to the label as an affcath.

However, the parish i was talking about uses the term of itself and many in it regard we affaths as not being anglo-catholic but merely 'liberals in vestments.'
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:

I notice that most Anglican chaplaincies in Europe are fairly MOTR, and neither very Low nor very High in their churchmanship. Although I could be wrong!

Generally true I think. Although in Italy (perhaps unsurprisingly though running counter to VenBede's thesis elsewhere) the general flavour seems to be on the high side. Inevitably most chaplaincy churches are not over-endowed with financial resources or person power, so full-scale High Mass and Benediction parishes are rare. St Mark's Florence is I believe Forward in Faith, and the one in Milan tends in that direction I think. All Saints Rome is probably on the Aff-Cath end of MOTR, though liturgically fairly conservative.

I get the impression that the Netherlands (and maybe Germany) is where the evangelicals of the diocese hang out.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The recently-retired incumbent was happy with either of the designations above but loathed 'Father Rickard' - I only discovered that after he left and have always called him that.

Is that a typo and he disliked the, perfectly standard, "Father Richard"? If not, I can understand why Fr Hoyal might object to being called Fr Rickard.

Thurible

sorry - you must be used to my typos by now.
Rickard sounds sort of Lutheran.
 
Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Generally true I think. Although in Italy (perhaps unsurprisingly though running counter to VenBede's thesis elsewhere) the general flavour seems to be on the high side.

Ha - not necessarily. The Italian Catholic Church tends to be rather "Low" Church - or at least, "Rushed" Church, with very little tolerance for extended ceremonial. All done with a certain "bella figura" of course!
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I think you misunderstand me, TT. I was referring to Anglican chaplaincies (C of E Diocese of Europe) in Italy. Which are probably 'high' in much the same way as you describe the Catholic churches there. I.e. not very flamboyant liturgically.

Incidentally a former director of the Anglican Centre in Rome once expressed his amusement at Anglo-catholics who modelled their liturgical and sartorial style on what they had seen on their travels to the Eternal City. He said that most suburban churches were more like Holy Trinity Brompton than the Brompton Oratory: it was only within a stonesthrow (or a thurible's swing) of the Vatican that the churches resembled the a-c ideal.
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is the parish, which is actually a curious mix of high and low, and it is called Christ Church with St Ewen:

http://www.christchurchcitybristol.org/index1.html

It seems to attract priests from all over the theological show. But I suspect ABC has much to do with the parish mentality of rejecting modernity.

On reflection, this church is an example of the sort of non-anglo-cats who pass the resolutions.

In recent years, it seems to be a bit jingoistic. Two friends of mine refer to its last priest-in-charge as 'the mad mullah' because he keeps Trafalgar Day. And i bet they kept Betty's accession yesterday, too.

I would think it a little bit disrespectful to refer to who is obviously a deeply spiritual and religious man as 'the mad mullah'. Betty' s accession is probably being kept til Sunday, but I think they sing God Save the Queen and that hymn about the English Martyrs more than any other...
 
Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think you misunderstand me, TT. I was referring to Anglican chaplaincies (C of E Diocese of Europe) in Italy. Which are probably 'high' in much the same way as you describe the Catholic churches there. I.e. not very flamboyant liturgically.

I thought I got you, and was following the argument that the CofE takes on the opposite hue to the dominant competitor. You suggested Italy was an exception in being rather "high", so I was trying to say that probably still reflects the thesis because the Italian Catholic Church is rather low. What have I missed?
 
Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Aggie:

I notice that most Anglican chaplaincies in Europe are fairly MOTR, and neither very Low nor very High in their churchmanship. Although I could be wrong!

Generally true I think. Although in Italy (perhaps unsurprisingly though running counter to VenBede's thesis elsewhere) the general flavour seems to be on the high side. Inevitably most chaplaincy churches are not over-endowed with financial resources or person power, so full-scale High Mass and Benediction parishes are rare. St Mark's Florence is I believe Forward in Faith, and the one in Milan tends in that direction I think. All Saints Rome is probably on the Aff-Cath end of MOTR, though liturgically fairly conservative.

I get the impression that the Netherlands (and maybe Germany) is where the evangelicals of the diocese hang out.

From my own experience of working in the Diocese in Europe, I'd suggest that Aggie is nearer the mark. Each chaplaincy has to cater for people who favour a very wide range of styles, both doctrinally and liturgically, and therefore any movement up and down the candle that might reflect a particular chaplain's direction tends to be corrected when s/he is gone.

Varese, where I worked, was at that time nominally part of the Milan chaplaincy. Of the two chaplains who lived in Milan during that time, the first came from Australia and returned there to join the RC Church; the second is now Rector of Saint Clement's Philadelphia. I would say the congregation remained MOTR with some evangelical tendencies during the whole of that time. Varese, under excellent lay leadership, has continued to develop more modern expressions of Church that are helpful for congregation members who are not of Anglican background, while retaining a core of distinctly Anglican worship.

Saint Mark's in Florence was for some time dominated by a group of people who were trying to emulate the Tractarians. Such a 'niche' approach was possible because Saint James Florence (TEC) exists and can provide an alternative for anglophones/Anglicans.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think you misunderstand me, TT. I was referring to Anglican chaplaincies (C of E Diocese of Europe) in Italy. Which are probably 'high' in much the same way as you describe the Catholic churches there. I.e. not very flamboyant liturgically.

I thought I got you, and was following the argument that the CofE takes on the opposite hue to the dominant competitor. You suggested Italy was an exception in being rather "high", so I was trying to say that probably still reflects the thesis because the Italian Catholic Church is rather low. What have I missed?
I see what you mean. Misunderstanding on my side.
 
Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 
With reference to OP, a good number of parishes in the Diocese in Europe have passed at least Resolution B, which the current management considers to be a Good Thing ecumenically. They might be surprised to find how many native Catholic clergy in Italy, both Ambrosian (Archdiocese of Milan) and Roman, are open to the ordination of women.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Good to have your first-hand experience of Anglicans in Italy, AberVicar. I'm sure you're right about most chaplaincy congregations; inevitably they will reflect a wide range of anglican traditions and especially with the increased immigration from Africa and elsewhere will tend towards the evangelical end of the spectrum. My experience there is much more limited, but I would guess that the clergy tend to be more catholic, and the churches often reflect a longer-established Tractarian tradition.

The priorities seem to be maintaining a Eucharistic presence and English-language worship, with a little sideline in celebrating English culture. That suits me and I suspect most Anglicans; the latter might become less appropriate as the make-up of congregations becomes less English as opposed to generally anglophone. The dynamic will of course be different in predominantly tourist cities if established resident expatriates make up a smaller proportion of the congregation.
 
Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :
 
The worship of most of the R,C. churches in France and Italy is rather low-church,ceremonial and music are often very plain.This must be a shock for former Anglicans who have joined the ordinariate.
The European Diocese of the Church of England,is Middle of Road.
With regard to the Anglican Church in the Netherlands, its worship is rather low-church.
Amsterdam is very Evangelical,Utrecht is rather Highish,vestments and incense,very similar to the
Old-Catholic worship in the Netherlands.
St.Boniface, Antwerp, Belgium is standing in
the Catholic tradition,however they stick to C.W.
The US Anglican/Episcopal Church in Europe , with beautiful churches in Paris and Rome,is also Middle of Road.Eucharistic centered with vestments,no incense.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
The two churches in the Dio of Europe I know best (one in the south of France, one in the north of Italy) are both MOTR with a mixed (and by no means monocultural) congregation; but, eucharist-centred, reservation in a tabernacle, vestments, priest called Father. I had assumed they were typical... maybe it's just the Mediterranean equivalent (and rather lower-church) equivalent of London Brighton and South Coast Religion.

Oh, and to bring it back on topic, they all seem to be women-priest free zones though I can't imagine that is for the same reason that motivates F in F in England. I don't know if any have passed the Resolutions (or even if they apply in Dio of Europe) .

[ 08. February 2013, 21:26: Message edited by: Angloid ]
 
Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The two churches in the Dio of Europe I know best (one in the south of France, one in the north of Italy) are both MOTR with a mixed (and by no means monocultural) congregation; but, eucharist-centred, reservation in a tabernacle, vestments, priest called Father. I had assumed they were typical... maybe it's just the Mediterranean equivalent (and rather lower-church) equivalent of London Brighton and South Coast Religion.

Oh, and to bring it back on topic, they all seem to be women-priest free zones though I can't imagine that is for the same reason that motivates F in F in England. I don't know if any have passed the Resolutions (or even if they apply in Dio of Europe) .

The resolutions DO apply in the Diocese in Europe (ref my earlier post).
 
Posted by The Man with a Stick (# 12664) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The two churches in the Dio of Europe I know best (one in the south of France, one in the north of Italy) are both MOTR with a mixed (and by no means monocultural) congregation; but, eucharist-centred, reservation in a tabernacle, vestments, priest called Father. I had assumed they were typical... maybe it's just the Mediterranean equivalent (and rather lower-church) equivalent of London Brighton and South Coast Religion.

Oh, and to bring it back on topic, they all seem to be women-priest free zones though I can't imagine that is for the same reason that motivates F in F in England. I don't know if any have passed the Resolutions (or even if they apply in Dio of Europe) .

The resolutions DO apply in the Diocese in Europe (ref my earlier post).
Well, sort of, but not in the same way. The Resolutions as they appear in the 1993 Measure cannot apply because they relate to Parishes, which do not exist in the Diocese in Europe (they have Chaplaincies). The Diocese in Europe constitution enables an "identical but different" set of Resolutions (identical in effect) to be given quasi-legal effect.

There's an interesting question as to whether they would withstand legal challenge as a matter of Employment law in certain European jurisdictions.
 
Posted by AberVicar (# 16451) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
The Diocese in Europe constitution enables an "identical but different" set of Resolutions (identical in effect) to be given quasi-legal effect.

There's an interesting question as to whether they would withstand legal challenge as a matter of Employment law in certain European jurisdictions.

The important thing here is 'identical in effect', and the legally fascinating thing about the Diocese in Europe is that it seeks to duplicate the effect of as much English ecclesiastical law as possible without there being any uniform legal recognition throughout the diocese. If you know sufficient to make the point regarding employment law in the variety of European jurisdictions, you will also be aware of the convoluted somersaults engaged in by some chaplaincies to avoid the legal consequences of their chaplain being an employee (and of whom?) - or to benefit from the favourable conditions that obtain in those countries where clergy are employees of the State.

But to go back to the Resolutions: no female priest reading a job advertisement that says Resolution B Passed is then going to take the Diocese/Chaplaincy to the relevant Court just to get an interview?
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Ahem. As I was saying...

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
A gentle reminder to all posters that the OP was about the worship practices of ABC parishes. If you move on to debating church politics (including attitudes towards the General Synod) or the resolutions as such (including when in the life of a parish they might have to be debated), this thread could find itself moved or closed.

seasick, Eccles host

This is a less gentle reminder. The resolutions as such are off limits for debate in Ecclesiantics. There will not be another warning, the thread will just be closed.

seasick, Eccles host
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
The worship of most of the R,C. churches in France and Italy is rather low-church,ceremonial and music are often very plain.This must be a shock for former Anglicans who have joined the ordinariate.

I've always said it's wrong and misleading to use the Anglicans' "low-church/High-Church" dichotomy with Catholic churches because of their different history and context. No matter how plain and simple the ceremonial one still believes in the sacrifice of the Mass, transubstantiation, the intercession of saints, etc., etc., and the texts of the liturgy reflect that.
 
Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :
 
Please allow me to tell you and other readers,Roman-Catholics themselves, of course not from the U.K., but living in other parts of Europe use the description LOW-CHURCH.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
Please allow me to tell you and other readers,Roman-Catholics themselves, of course not from the U.K., but living in other parts of Europe use the description LOW-CHURCH.

Well, I don't know about that. I've never come across the term in Italian, French and Spanish Catholic websites or in comment sections from Italian, French and Spanish posters either. I'd be surprised if Poles and Slovaks use it, too. I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that anyone who does use the term has picked it up from the Anglicans and it still doesn't make sense using it beyond the Anglican context.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
It doesn't make much sense within it, without a lot of additional qualifications. 'Low' and 'high' could be descriptive of worship styles, and so nothing to do with theology. I suspect that is what is intended here. And in that sense can apply as much to Catholic as Anglican churches.

But 'high church' has a very specific politico-theological meaning in Anglican history, and rarely implied a particularly exotic style of worship. It is no more to be equated with anglo-catholic than 'low church' is with evangelical.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Oh, I understand why people use the terms with Catholic churches. As a short-hand descriptor of liturgy it can be very convenient but I think people do make judgements of theology based on it (as far as I'm able to understand, historically the presence and type or lack of ceremonial in Anglican parishes indicated the type of beliefs held there) and that leads to misunderstanding and confusion like the possible shock to Anglicans entering the Ordinariate that was mentioned above.
 
Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :
 
We have gone way off topic. If I was interested in what the Romans called themselves or the way they worship I would have asked about it. As it is, I'm not, and I am of a school that shudders slightly when I hear them refer to themselves as 'Catholics' when I know fully well that they would cause a fuss if I chose - as the English Reformers and Caroline divines did - to refer to myself by the same term.
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Indifferently: We try to maintain an atmosphere of respect for all traditions represented in Ecclesiantics. One of the elements of that is to refer to the various traditions and their adherents by the terms they themselves prefer. The use of the word "Romans" to describe Catholics is deprecated. You are entirely free to use the term "Roman Catholic" if you wish.

seasick, Eccles host
 


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