quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The church I currently attend normally starts 5 minutes late, or more, and people turn up late even then. In fact one group normally arrive with their helpers some 15 minutes late.

---

We regularly have people turning up 30 minutes late or more, and it has been known for people to turn up solely for the after-service coffee. Also regularly, visitors turn up well ahead of the usual congregation.

I personally hate being late for anything and it annoys me when people can't get their act together enough to make it on time. However, I haven't yet found a way of communicating the need to be on time that is synonymous with the Good News we are trying to stand for, and Jesus doesn't strike me as being a very punctual type.
 

---

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Over half of our congregation do not live in the parish so drive in. Parking here is very difficult so many are late because they can't find a parking space.

One could say that they should set off earlier but those with children or elderly relatives know how difficult that can be.

---

quote:

---

My brothers and sisters, do you with your acts of favoritism really believe in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ? For if a person with gold rings and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and if a poor person in dirty clothes also comes in, and if you take notice of the one wearing the fine clothes and say, “Have a seat here, please,” while to the one who is poor you say, “Stand there,” or, “Sit at my feet,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:
Services should start at the time they advertise. Otherwise, they're holding up the entire congregation.

People in the congregation can arrive at whatever time they want to; they're holding up no-one but themselves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by shamwari:
And the Zimbabweans who arrive late are greeted by a long meaningful silence while they take their seats,
...
They are impervious to long meaningful silences

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gorpo:
.....And also, there is a serious possibility that some people deliberately got late because they didn´t want to watch the whole service. .....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by gorpo:
Starting a service late is disrespectful with people who got there in time. And also, there is a serious possibility that some people deliberately got late because they didn´t want to watch the whole service. If people know that there is no parking or the church is not very near their home, they should get up earlier to get there in time. That´s how it works with any other activities in life.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
" personally frustrating"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:
Services should start at the time they advertise. Otherwise, they're holding up the entire congregation.

People in the congregation can arrive at whatever time they want to; they're holding up no-one but themselves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
.......... It's never hard when they go to the cinema,theatre, pub, restaurant,friend's party, sports event, table quiz, interview or their work or whatever else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
If its important to you, you will be there when it starts.

---

quote:

---

But those involved in leading the service - clergy/ servers/ choir/ worship band as appropriate - as well as anyone reading or leading intercessions should be there in plenty of time to allow for preparation and vestry prayers before the service.

---

However when you are a multi parish benifice in a rural area and the 9.30 Eucharist doesn't finish until 10.40 and you are supposed to be at a village upto 10 miles away across country lanes in time to start an 11 oclock service, then being late may not be avoided. Fortunately we are blessed with vllage comgregations who are just pleased taht we turn up for a service and always say to us- the service starts when you arrive!
By the same token we have to leave any church where we have had a 9.30 service after only a brief time to speak to people in order to get to the next church. The joys of rural ministry- which I love by the way
 

---

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
I've been in a part of the world where time is unanimously considered to be elastic - they are even late for work, and regularly so; but when it came to church they were never late - not ever. If through unforseen circumstances they found themselves being late they would arrange to go to another church at a later time or go to the evening service (there it was a repeat of the morning one). Not once did I ever see anyone arrive late to a service, and it wasn't that they were keeping others waiting, it wasn't that they brilliant time keepers, they simply believed it wasn't a good thing to keep the creator of all that is waiting (a kind of a moral question).

It was an interesting perspective for me, coming from the West, and a particular part of the West that sees lateness as a sign of rudeness and disrespect. Yet even in that part of the west in which I used to live, there seemed to be personality types that were utterly intent on being late for just about everything and who never understood why people got upset when they were late.
 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Where I agree with you is that there is a cultural element in all this.

It might be worth debating whether one should keep the Creator waiting - and/or where that should come in our priorities as opposed, say, to being in the right frame of mind or looking after our families' needs.

I also agree that, within cultural bounds of acceptability, services should start and above all finish on time, because that is about showing respect to others. (I somewhere figure that this might one day be reciprocated by people turning up on time, but I'm still waiting).

However, I still think Jesus hardly sets a good example in all this. He's constantly being late for things (at least from a human perspective).

[ 03. March 2013, 21:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

---

Posted by Merchant Trader (# 9007) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
.....Yet even in that part of the west in which I used to live, there seemed to be personality types that were utterly intent on being late for just about everything and who never understood why people got upset when they were late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Well yes; maybe the motto of the church universal should be, 'Nobody knows the time or the hour'.....in all things.

---

 

---

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
posted by MT:

quote:

---

Bless them and give thanks for them and don't condemn them

---

quote:

---

I feel about this basically the way that I feel about (explicit or implicit) dress codes in church, which more or less lines up with James 2:1-4:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:

I just don't buy the, 'Oh, but if you have elderly parents or kids or lack of parking or a bit of a walk then its hard.' It's never hard when they go to the cinema,theatre, pub, restaurant,friend's party, sports event, table quiz, interview or their work or whatever else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:

I just don't buy the, 'Oh, but if you have elderly parents or kids or lack of parking or a bit of a walk then its hard.' It's never hard when they go to the cinema,theatre, pub, restaurant,friend's party, sports event, table quiz, interview or their work or whatever else.

---

But how do you know this? Unless you live with them? Because as one of those people I can tell you that it DOES affect every area of my life, fun and work included, and it is therefore demonstrably a real global problem and not intentional disrespect or lack of "care". Heck, I've missed planes for this reason, and the only reason I wasn't late to my own wedding was that I came to church three hours ahead of time. But that strategy doesn't work as an every Sunday gameplan. For one thing, the doors won't be open.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
To reiterate: church is no different than work, school, a hot date or dinner with the in-laws in that regard, and it ought to be treated the same.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Well, if the only thing you are worried about is the consequence for being late, then yes, you have a point. If that is how you run your life, then fine.

It is not how I run mine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
However, I still think Jesus hardly sets a good example in all this. He's constantly being late for things (at least from a human perspective).

---

--Tom Clune
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Late for His Second Coming, maybe?

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I sympathise but what's the real issue here? Is it wrong to have to wait 10 minutes if you arrive early? I always carry a book for that very reason.

No one's blaming anyone - but for every person who struggles with being on time, there's someone who finds latecomers disruptive and annoying. If I'm late - am I really happy knowing that I might upset soemone when i ease in? If I'm early who am I going to annoy in the same way? How will I make the weaker person stumble by being on time - I don't insist on everyone being in, there's just bits that they will miss that's all.

If work relies on me being in on time (e.g a bank that has to open at 9 with the staff there) why must slack be cut for those who regularly can't make it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by gorpo:
Starting a service late is disrespectful with people who got there in time. And also, there is a serious possibility that some people deliberately got late because they didn´t want to watch the whole service. If people know that there is no parking or the church is not very near their home, they should get up earlier to get there in time. That´s how it works with any other activities in life.

---

How is it disrespectful if no disrespect is intended? Try "annoying" or " personally frustrating"-- some word that does not automatically assume bad intentions on the part of people whose minds you have no way of reading.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As foe the idea that some people deliberately avoid tge first few minutes of service to shorten things--even if that were true, don't you think that is God's business? Surely if he finds this a problem he can deal with it without you taking the role of enforcer, even if only in fantasy. I don't understand why you are putting the worst construction on the situation, contra St Paul. Have you no need for mercy of your own? Eta crosspost! That is not to you, MT!

---

Well, I´m not condemning people who arrive late at the Church to eternal damnation, in case you didn´t notice


My point is the service should not start later then planned because of people arriving late.

I used to arrive 30 minutes late every week at the service in a Church I went a few years ago because I didn´t like the "worship moment". I certainly didn´t expect the whole church for wait for me to arrive before they start the service.
 

---

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :
 
People came in at all times to the Sikh Temple I visited a few weeks ago. It seemed quite acceptable. The person who adopted me as a host brought me in after the service started.
The first thing anyone did on entering was to go up to the front and put money in the collection, so it wasn't as though this was done surreptitiously.

Maybe we could learn something from this.

In business we had a saying "The problem with arriving on time to a meeting is that there is nobody there to appreciate it." Managers often arrived specially late to show just how important they were.
 

---

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
I would say that I am pretty punctual, but I have to say sometimes I think the clock is one of the greatest tools of enslavement of modern man/woman. You can have things timed down to the last second (especially if you are in some type of media work), but there are times when things can go a little long.

For me, it was not about people getting to service late as it was for services to go a little long. If that happened, there would be holy hell to deal with. Then, when you try to adapt, there were be complaints the other way. Drop a hymn? Not a good idea. Cut the sermon? People complain where was the Word. Drop a part of the liturgy. (Better not let the bishop hear about that).

One time a person complained about communion taking too long. I could not resist. I asked him if he was going to complain if the feast that has no ending took a little too long. He was very puzzled by the question.

Yes, start at a reasonable time, but I think it is better to leave all watches and cell phones at the door, and let it happen--as long as we don't over extend the time element.
 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by tclune:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
However, I still think Jesus hardly sets a good example in all this. He's constantly being late for things (at least from a human perspective).

---

--Tom Clune

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
I would say that I am pretty punctual, but I have to say sometimes I think the clock is one of the greatest tools of enslavement of modern man/woman. You can have things timed down to the last second (especially if you are in some type of media work), but there are times when things can go a little long.

For me, it was not about people getting to service late as it was for services to go a little long. If that happened, there would be holy hell to deal with. Then, when you try to adapt, there were be complaints the other way. Drop a hymn? Not a good idea. Cut the sermon? People complain where was the Word. Drop a part of the liturgy. (Better not let the bishop hear about that).

One time a person complained about communion taking too long. I could not resist. I asked him if he was going to complain if the feast that has no ending took a little too long. He was very puzzled by the question.

Yes, start at a reasonable time, but I think it is better to leave all watches and cell phones at the door, and let it happen--as long as we don't over extend the time element.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I do struggle with people being habitually late for things (not occasionals or one offs). I suppose there's only 2 main reasons - disorganisation or a desire to be seen to arrive. Neither of these are attractive traits.

---

quote:

---

Some people will be late no matter how long you delay. They are perpetually poor judges of how much time it takes, or their lives have disruptions that make it hard to leave predictably on time, or they want to kinda sneak in late to avoid having to chit chat, or being early and sitting around idle is more painful for them than being late, or they don't truly feel welcome so need to kinda sneak in "unnoticed", or they aren't really surer they want to go so preparations take longer, etc.

---

quote:

---

being early and sitting around idle is more painful for them than being late

---

Yes really! I hate the thought of sitting around 'idle' and am so accustomed to being late that I don't really know how to relate to people when I am on time. Occasionally I do arrive to work a couple of minutes early, and have been known to sit in my car outside for a few minutes, listening to the radio or deleting messages on my phone or SOMETHING, just so as to avoid walking in early.

So yes lateness for me involves all regular daily life, church, work, social engagements etc. I'm not proud of it, but its just part of who I am. Very rarely more than 5 minutes late, and at work I'm just as likely to be leaving late at the end of the shift, so I am certainly not shortchanging my employer. Its no reflection on anyone else bar myself, and believe it or not I don't like the attention focused on me when I run in at the last minutes (the worst one is church choir practice actually - lots of steely looks, making me temporarily resolved to do better next time ... until the next time).

Once a week I go for a clarinet lesson across town. Its a tricky journey in rush hour (lesson is 5.15pm) and I never know the best route to take to avoid the latest roadworks etc. So of course I am usually late. But I have to leave what feel like 'early' for me each week to attempt to get there in time (as I'm paying for 30 minutes tuition and rarely achieve 25 mins!). So I allow at least 20-25 minutes to drive 2.5 miles, which seems far too long to me, always assuming that I might well end up early, so I hunt around for a book to read in the car when I arrive .... but hunting for the book delays me further of course, and almost NEVER do I have time to read it! More often I am guess what, 5 minutes late.

[ 04. March 2013, 09:12: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I am very disorganised and have no concept of time whatever.

Because of this I am always early in order not to be late. This is often embarrassing for me, but not for anyone else. I often sit outside in the car because I'm far too early. But now that I have the wonderful hobby of photography, I always have something to keep me busy.

One family (no young kids all grown up) are always 5 minutes late to Church - I don't get it at all. It's just as easy to readjust your morning and be five minutes early!

I'll bet he's not late for meetings - he's a CEO of a large company. They are also very good friends of ours and never late for dinner parties! So why late for Church?

Maybe they see Sunday as a day to relax and take their time?

[ 04. March 2013, 09:28: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
My church has a great attitude to this - the service starts on time, but the congregants arrive at a variety of times. Some are early, some are on time, some are late. So what?

I've got to say though, there's nothing that made me feel more at home with the place than the opening announcement one week that said "looks like a lot of people are late today - let's sing even louder so they can join in while they're walking down the driveway!"
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Maybe they see Sunday as a day to relax and take their time?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
My church has a great attitude to this - the service starts on time, but the congregants arrive at a variety of times. Some are early, some are on time, some are late. So what?

---

quote:

---

No one's blaming anyone - but for every person who struggles with being on time, there's someone who finds latecomers disruptive and annoying...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[qb]
1. They are perpetually poor judges of how much time it takes, or their lives have disruptions

2. ... believe me us latecomers are almost certainly NOT doing it to annoy you, or to draw attention to ourselves.

3. For me its is more likely to be a desire to be TOO organised, to fit more things in than I ought to attempt, that is the main cause of my lateness.

4. I hate the thought of sitting around 'idle' and am so accustomed to being late that I don't really know how to relate to people when I am on time. Occasionally I do arrive to work a couple of minutes early, and have been known to sit in my car outside for a few minutes, listening to the radio or deleting messages on my phone or SOMETHING, just so as to avoid walking in early.
/QB]

---

quote:

---

Understand that procrastination or being late is a way of manipulating and controlling a situation at the expense of others. When everything is about you because everyone has to wait on you, you are unfairly controlling the situation while assuming that others should and will wait on you. It's an arrogant behavior. From: Always Late? Procrastinate?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Dr. Phil is talking irrelevant bollocks, because nobody is suggesting that services should delay starting until the latecomers are present.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lily pad:
Actually, I don't think it is intentional or malicious except perhaps in very rare circumstances. If it were a case of competency, surely it could be improved with practice? That those who are always late see no need to try to be on time says to me that something else is at work.

---

quote:

---

I've gone in late on occasions when circumstances have conspired to change my plans to be on time. But that's the rub, I value being on time. Other people just don't. I couldn't care less if someone is late for church. I don't find it that disruptive when people come in after the service has started. But in many other instances, I and the groups I belong to, find it very difficult to work around people who are chronically late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
I am not disturbed by people arriving late, but I am disturbed by services starting late.

---

quote:

---

It takes as much discipline to be consistently 5 or 10 minutes late as to show up on time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lily pad:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Dr. Phil is talking irrelevant bollocks, because nobody is suggesting that services should delay starting until the latecomers are present.

---

Seriously? Where did he say that?

---

quote:

---

When everything is about you because everyone has to wait on you, you are unfairly controlling the situation while assuming that others should and will wait on you. It's an arrogant behavior.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
The Friends (Quaker) meeting I sometimes attend have a good system. Well they have to considering it consists of silence unless moved to speak.

Start 10:45am sharp regardless of who has or hasn't arrived.

Anyone arriving after the start waits in another room until 11:00am and enter as the children are leaving for their meeting.

It's rare that anyone enters after 11:00am probably because it's near impossible to slip unnoticed into a room full of completely silent people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Ah. Another person who can read the minds of other people and assume that their behaviour is intentionally and maliciously manipulative when in fact it's just a basic area of incompetence. I know because it's a basic competency in which I'm severely lacking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Ah. Another person who can read the minds of other people and assume that their behaviour is intentionally and maliciously manipulative when in fact it's just a basic area of incompetence. I know because it's a basic competency in which I'm severely lacking.

---

Me too - severely lacking. But with practice and timers for reminders it can be done.

Motivation is everything.

---

You were once a teacher, right? Did you get to school and lessons on time?
 

---

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :
 
Blessed are the latecomers for they shall give those who got there on time the opportunity to feel all pleased with themselves.

Erroneous Monk - pianist - only once in 6 years missed the start of the first hymn
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
You were once a teacher, right? Did you get to school and lessons on time?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Ah. Another person who can read the minds of other people and assume that their behaviour is intentionally and maliciously manipulative when in fact it's just a basic area of incompetence. I know because it's a basic competency in which I'm severely lacking.

---

Me too - severely lacking. But with practice and timers for reminders it can be done.

Motivation is everything.

---

Depends whether you can remember to set the timers and reminders

But with me it's usually one of (a) having to go back for something I've forgotten - and I am quite capable of reading a sheet of necessities immediately before leaving and still leaving something behind, or (b) finding that half an hour has passed since I checked the time when I thought it was about 5 minutes.

Motivation is not everything. I could be as highly motivated as I like, but I'd never be able to fly to Mars.

[ 04. March 2013, 15:20: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
You were once a teacher, right? Did you get to school and lessons on time?

---

I am still a teacher and yes I do, that is what I have been saying.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
You were once a teacher, right? Did you get to school and lessons on time?

---

I am still a teacher and yes I do, that is what I have been saying.

---

Thanks - then it is possible for those whose natural inclnations are in the opposite direction to be somewhere on time 9Subject to unaccoiuntable delays of course).

Then it's a choice whether to get yourself into that position (be "organised") or not. For ,most people it's not an insurmountable objective ....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

Motivation is not everything. I could be as highly motivated as I like, but I'd never be able to fly to Mars.

---

Haha - I do know this, but 'motivation is everything' trips better off the tongue.

When I set my timers I put a small post it on the timer with the action I need to take written on it. This doesn't leave my palm until the action is done. I am eminently distractable so need this physical as well as audible reminder. If I am not able to remember to set the timer I use the alarm on my phone to do this for me.

It works a treat.

I used to be a coach for adults with ADHD and have many tricks up my sleeve for the chronically distractable/forgetful/attentionally different.


 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I'll give you a f'rinstance.

This morning I had two things to take to work. My lunch and my laptop. The first because I like to have something to eat, and the second because I'm on call this week and need it fully updated so that it can connect via our remote access portal.

As I left, I had both these things in my mind. My lunch was hanging on the door handle, as it normally is, so that I don't forget it. Then one of the kids said something; no idea what, something mundane. The end result was that within 20 seconds I had left - without my lunch.

Fortunately I can survive without that; had it been the laptop, I'd have had to go back for it. And I only discovered I'd forgotten something when I got to work, so I'd have been late had that happened.

I do things like this regularly. It sometimes makes me late.
 

---

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Then it's a choice whether to get yourself into that position (be "organised") or not. For most people it's not an insurmountable objective ....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lily pad:
If it were a case of competency, surely it could be improved with practice? That those who are always late see no need to try to be on time says to me that something else is at work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Blessed are the latecomers for they shall give those who got there on time the opportunity to feel all pleased with themselves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
ExclamationMark:

quote:

---

Then it's a choice whether to get yourself into that position (be "organised") or not. For most people it's not an insurmountable objective ....

---

Then it's a choice between being a church that is there for everyone (even the Miserable Sinners who tiptoe in apologetically, ten minutes late every Sunday) or being a church that excludes people who really can't get there in time for the beginning of the service, whether because they have problems with timekeeping generally or because they had an unforeseen traffic jam that week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
[QUOTE]I am no way trying to justify my attitude, I know its a failing, a character flaw, but don't we all have them? Knowing that you have a failing doesn't immediately make you motivated to try and do something about it unless the benefits of doing so outweigh the 'reasons' that make sense to you for behaving that way in the first place.

---

Then, none of us would ever change or improve - this says you're only concerned about the benefits that will accrue to you if you change. I'd much rather consider what value or help I can bring to others - which always involves me not doing stuff that might seem ok to me but which winds others up or makes me unreliable.

To use an example you quoted above. So you're not motivated enough to get to choir practice on time? What does that say about your desire to be part of a group? Perhaps not enough to be sticking with it - unless what it all means to you (activity and people) is far deeper than we've managed to expose at the moment!

[ 04. March 2013, 15:51: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
 

---

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
So what are we all arguing about then? I don't think anyone has suggested that ministers and other people with 'jobs' to do during the service should not be there on time, or that services should start late.

Perhaps we should add another 'but' to your list:

* 'I can't be sure of arriving on time' is a socially acceptable reason for not being on a church rota.

A lot of people bow to pressure to 'do things' for the church and then find they can't manage it. They should be allowed to back out gracefully and not subjected to emotional blackmail. Time-sensitive jobs should be given to those of us with the spiritual gift of punctuality.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Spiritual gift?
 

---

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
I'm sure St Paul would have put it on the list if there had been more than one clock in first century Corinth...

[ 04. March 2013, 15:57: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
I'm sure St Paul would have put it on the list if there had been more than one clock in first century Corinth...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
Isn't one reason why you begin a service with a long hymn is to give the stragglers a chance to arrive? Just kidding.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
we used to have announcements before the service in order to give everyone just a little more time. And they took advantage of it by being just a little later. Now we have the announcements at the end (not my choice).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]When we do the notices at the start, the latecomers protest because they wanted to give out a notice!

---

quote:

---

Isn't one reason why you begin a service with a long hymn is to give the stragglers a chance to arrive?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Now if people could do that for work why not do it elsewhere?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lily pad:
If it were a case of competency, surely it could be improved with practice?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:
[QUOTE]Because the way I manage it for work is by getting up too early and, usually, by having to skip breakfast.

Getting to work on time STRESSES ME OUT and means I start the day slightly tired and very hungry.

On days when I am not likely to be fired, I prefer to work at my natural pace, even if it means I'm late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Ah but that's the thing - is it all about you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gramps49:
we used to have announcements before the service in order to give everyone just a little more time. And they took advantage of it by being just a little later. Now we have the announcements at the end (not my choice).

---

When we do the notices at the start, the latecomers protest because they wanted to give out a notice!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:

Could you please STOP implying that I'm only late because I don't care about other people?

---

I, for one, don't.

When I talked about my friends upthread who are habitually late I certainly didn't think it was because they don't care about other people - I know that they do, in many self-giving ways.

I was musing as to how they could do it with such a relaxed attitude. I am a very laid back, easy going person - but there are some things I can't be relaxed about and lateness is one. Drummed into me from babyhood! I am pleased this is so, as I am so very poor at time keeping life would be very hard if I hadn't learned to deal with this deficiency (It isn't my only one as I have dyslexia and ADHD - but I have been a Primary school teacher for 35 years so 'overcoming' has been a lifelong process)


 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:
[QUOTE]Could you please STOP implying that I'm only late because I don't care about other people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I suppose that makes me interested in why some people are unable (for whatever reason) to do what a very large majority seem able to do. [Why for example to take your point, does it take you an hour of stress to get ready to go out with a friend? If so, doesn't starting earlier make a difference or not getting ready to the same degree. I am genuinely interested].

---

In my case, it's called ADHD. When it comes to everyday functioning that involves organisational stuff like timing and getting things done on a schedule, I'm pretty much at the absolute bottom of the bell-curve.

-------

As for the hour of stress to get ready...

It's midday, and I'm having dinner with my friend at 6pm. In the meantime, I'm going to wash the dishes, water the garden, and read a novel. Then, at 5pm, I'll get dressed, at 5:15 I'll leave the house, I'll get to the restaurant at 5:45, and I'll be 15 minutes early for dinner. Sound good?

So, I start washing the dishes. Except the lid to one of the dishes is missing, so I look for that - and find that it's stuck at the back of the drawer, and as it turns out the drawer's fairly messy, so I sit down and start organising it. And then I pick up one of the dishes, and remember that I'd been planning to make an apple pie in it for weeks now, and I keep on forgetting! I'm not going to forget again - so I put it out on the bench and grab some apples to put next to it, so that I can remember why it's there. Then I decide I should get the recipe book and find out how many apples I'll need, so I hunt for the recipe book, note down the number of apples, realise I'm almost out of flour, add flour to the shopping list, pull out the sugar to make sure I'm not out of that too, and realise that the sugar tin STILL says "brown sugar" when it should say "white sugar". So I find the permanent marker, and bring it over to fix it - except as I turn around I realise that the dishes are still sitting there, and I haven't done them yet. I swear, loudly, and do the rest of the dishes as fast as possible - but it's taking too long, and I was going to water the garden (it's GOT to be watered today - because I haven't remembered to water it all week, and the plants are going to die) so I leave the last load of dishes for later.

I go out to water the garden. I need to put on shoes to go outside, and as I put them on I notice that my last four pairs of shoes are still sitting at the front door, being horribly messy. So I spend a few minutes putting all my shoes away.
...and then I stand there for a few minutes, trying to remember why I was by the front door. Oh yes! Gardening! So I needed outdoor shoes - which I've just put away, so I pull all my shoes out again to find them.

While walking across the lawn, I remember that I haven't checked the letterbox for a couple of days, so I go and grab the mail, walk inside sorting through it, and have just opened a couple of bills when I remember that I'm supposed to water the lawn. I drop the bills on the floor, go out, and grab the hose - which isn't working properly. There's all this water spraying out the tap end. I spend a few minutes experimenting with this, to see if I can figure out what's going on. I can't - but after I water the first flower bed, I go into the garage and grab my spare hose. Then I set that up, and check if it has the same problem. It does - so it's clearly not the hose that's the issue, but the tap head. I go inside and google to see if any gardening sites say anything about what I should do. No luck - but it seems that the local hardware shop is having a sale on gardening tools, so I spend a few minutes checking out their catalogue.

And damn - it's nearly five, and I was going to wash my dishes (yes), and water the garden (yes), and read my novel (no) - where is my novel, anyway? Somehow this takes on extreme importance for me, because I need to tick off my entire list of tasks for the afternoon - forgetting that the novel was only a task because I'd have so much free time. But ANYWAY, I cannot for the life of me remember where I put the damn thing! It's GONE. I crawl under my bed to see if it's managed to fall down there without me noticing, and then stomp around like a madman, getting more and more freaked out until I actually manage to find the blasted book - at which point I realise that I don't have time to read it anymore, because I've got to get ready for dinner.

I manage to track down most of my outfit - except for my shirt which is still waiting to be washed - but I can't find my shoes, and I manage to empty my entire collection of shoes out onto the floor before I remember putting them away this afternoon in the new place that I thought would work better for shoes. (It takes me another 30 seconds to remember exactly where the new place was.)

...and so, once I'm dressed, I'll get out the door, hopefully managing to find my keys on the first try, and after returning once to find the address and a second time to retrieve the handbag that I left behind, I'll hopefully manage to get to the restaurant by 6:15.

I still have dishes to do, I have a drawer of dishes half organised, I have apples and flour on the bench, my second flower bed is still dying from thirst, I have shoes all over my floor, and my bills have slipped under the couch and will never be heard from again. Tomorrow, I'll come home and do the same thing...

---------

If I want to avoid the above, I will live the ENTIRE DAY waiting for the moment when it's 5 o'clock. I will live my entire afternoon clock-watching, unable to do ANYTHING, at all, because I know from grim experience that the slightest activity can spiral desperately out of control and up-end my day. I will repeat, over and over, every inch of my schedule ("find shoes, wear pink top, get map of restaurant, find keys, find shoes, wear pink top..."), I will wander around my house trying to remember that I'm having dinner this evening, and even though I'm doing this there's still a rather large possibility of me screwing up and getting there late, and THAT'S going to stress me out all day - as is the feeling that I'm a bad friend, that one day everyone's going to get sick of me being so hopeless, and that surely I SHOULD be able to do this if I really, really tried?

-------

I live my life on the edge of chaos. On a good day, I look pretty normal to most of the world. But I am constantly holding on to normal by the skin of my teeth. Keeping my life organised to the point where I know where my bills are (even though I haven't paid them) and I know I'm having dinner tonight (even though my clothes still haven't been washed) is a huge accomplishment, and I am proud of myself every time I manage it.

[ 05. March 2013, 07:51: Message edited by: St Deird ]
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I don't have ADHD, but what she said. That's normal life for me as well.
 

---

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
I'm quite surprised by some of the attitudes here. Much of it is jugdemental, pharisaical etc. Don't get me wrong, I've fallen to such things before. I've always disliked tardiness and sometimes find it difficult to understand how some people can be such bad time keepers but I think we should try to suppress the temptation to judge people. If we concentrate on our own hearts then people turning up late for whatever reason seems rather irrelevent.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
St Deird - well put
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
If the hour of a particular church service is too early for one to be properly organized, it might be worthwhile finding a church or church service where the hour is more convenient. To be under a constant feeling of stress to meet a time I know I don't want or am unable to meet would not be conducive to me, as a worshipper. I'd rather make a habit of being on time for an evening service, than be repeatedly late for a morning service. Most morning services I know are actually around the time of half ten or eleven or later. If that is still too difficult, then evenings would appear to be the natural and rational option.

Of course, some people mightn't have this choice, and/or still prefer their church's morning service, even though late each time. I wouldn't see the point, as an officiant, in making a fuss of it.

In terms of beginning on time. Practically, this is desirable. Officiants often have more than one group of people to serve in the day. Additionally, people who turn up on time should have the use of their time honoured by not starting late. It would be unfair otherwise.

And while St Deird may indeed be guiltless of thoughtlessness towards others, many people are certainly late because they are pretty much indifferent to the others who experience their regular lateness every week, and to the worship dynamic. I know some of our congo members don't feel helped during their pre-confession silence by the sound of heavy crashing doors and footfalls on the wooden floor-boards! We have had to alter elements of our worship to accommodate the every-week lateness of the same small groups of people.

As to that, it has to be said lateness on such a regular scale is pretty normal in this part of Ireland. I'm quite used to ending the service with a handful more of people I started with. And I could even tell you in five minute segments who will appear at which stage of the service. Eg, who makes it for the absolution, who'll be there by the first reading etc.

Frankly, I'm just glad they're there! And, of course, it is their church more than it is mine. Their families have been worshipping there since Adam was a lad. Amazing what you can get used to, when you have to!
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
is it all about you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
is it all about you?

---

One might say the same to anyone who gets offended by others turning up late.

---

Yes, one could. But equally the offended person could say, I was in the middle of my prayer doing what I had come to do according to the service format, and I was prevented by someone who was acting outside of the accepted group dynamic. (Well, they probably wouldn't use that phrasing! )

I'm guessing someone who's watching a play or a movie might feel justified in complaining if their experience was interrupted or ruined by latecomers distracting them, or getting in the way? Well, possibly some people take their worship-time quite seriously, too, in much the same way.

Of course, on the other hand, one might say that distracting late-comers are a great foil for the development of one's capacity for Christian forgiveness!
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
If someone disturbing your prayer is the greatest challenge to your capacity for Christian forgiveness in a given day, then I would hope that your thanksgiving and praise for your blessed and happy existence should be truly exuberant.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
If someone disturbing your prayer is the greatest challenge to your capacity for Christian forgiveness in a given day, then I would hope that your thanksgiving and praise for your blessed and happy existence should be truly exuberant.

---

Yeah, you'd think so ! Though I don't think anyone is claiming that disturbed prayer is the greatest challenge in anyone's day. And of course people who are going through desperate times and seeking some moments of peace and prayer - at a time, location, and specific format designed to enable that very thing - are surely permitted some dismay at having that unnecessarily disturbed.

It's only fair to note, that not everyone who is disturbed unhelpfully in their worship by late-comers is being judgemental and horrible.

As an aside, it does seem strange to have such high expectations of how the on-timers should behave, when our expectations of the late-comers don't even include being on time.

My own expectation of worshippers is basically a vague hope that they merely turn up. Sometime.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Well, we are enjoined to forbear and bear with one another's failings and struggles; I can't recall any verse enjoining us to good timekeeping.

I'm sure that the people who find organisation and timekeeping easy have faults and failings in other areas that we chronic late arrivers will be called upon to forbear at some point.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Karl, I'm not disagreeing. I'm pointing out that our decisions have effects on other people. If I decide to ignore beginning and ending times which most others observe, my actions will have consequences on those others. That I'm not a good time-keeper may not be my fault, and it may be desirable I'm late rather than not there at all (my own view!). But it's a little intolerant and unrealistic to think that everyone around me has to be content with that.

And it's true there is nothing in scripture which says 'thou shalt watch the clock'. But it's just plain naive to pretend in ordinary Western culture that our events and activities - including church services - don't have set times for starting. Fair enough if your church's practice is to have approxmimately half an hour or so of musical worship, before drifting organically into a more structured format round about some vague time or thereabouts, where people can float in when it suits. Sounds great actually! But for most it doesn't work that way.

And shouldn't the majority who turn up quietly and reliably week by week be permitted a little consideration, too? I've no time for moaners who's main beef about late-comers is simply an issue of minutes and seconds but even conforming worshippers deserve some respect for their views, surely?
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I can't speak for others, but I certainly don't "choose to ignore start and finish times".

I just, despite my best efforts, don't always achieve accurate observance of them. It's not really a matter of choice or decision. I think this is what I find frustrating - some people really don't seem to believe that this sort of thing can be insanely hard for some of us, as illustrated so well by St Deird.

I don't think many of us choose to be this way. We'd love not to, the trouble it gets us in to.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Well, what can I say, Karl? You seem to be saying that because some people through no fault of their own are unable to observe deadlines, it's therefore ungracious of others to make reference to those who choose to ignore time, and the effect that their decisions have on others.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Well, what can I say, Karl? You seem to be saying that because some people through no fault of their own are unable to observe deadlines, it's therefore ungracious of others to make reference to those who choose to ignore time, and the effect that their decisions have on others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Do you have good reason to suppose that your latecomers do choose to ignore time? How do you know they're not people like me and St Deird?

---

You had to ask .

In line with CofI ministry and our generally small congregations, I know our late arrivals very well.

There are one or possibly two cases which could be said to resemble what you and St Deird have described. And I do appreciate that it's not always apparent or recognizable that that is the case.

Other cases say it's hard to get everyone organized on a Sunday morning, because unlike a school/work day, they feel they should be able to be more relaxed and not worry about time. And the main late-comers are farmers who will be the first to tell you they've just 'got into the habit' of leaving church to the last minute, and feel no harm is done by their regular late appearance at worship. They've been regularly late at worship by 17 minutes for the last 25 years; why change now?

Because I know them and understand their reasons, that is why I don't mind our late-comers and it's never an issue - with me at any rate. I certainly don't bring it up, either privately or in worship.

Of course, these are particular examples in a particular church situation. And every church situation will be different or at least varied. But I think that just as some congregation members have to realize that not everybody who's late is being lazy or disrespectful, so perhaps you might have to admit that not everybody who's late has a well-justified reason for interrupting the service to make a perfectly avoidable late entrance!

I find it easier just to not judge either way. I don't need to know if the person is blame-free or blame-worthy. I'm just simply glad to see them full stop. I personally would like everyone to take that view. But one of the points I'm making here is that it's hardly to be wondered at that some people don't. That may be regrettable in some cases, but it's still an inevitable fact.
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Oh, agreed. I just wonder if they'd be less upset by it if they actually realised that some of us really, really, don't find it easy and aren't doing it for the borderline sociopathic reasons some people are putting forward on this thread
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
A fair proportion of our congregation arrives either at the last minute (i.e. just as we start the introit hymn) or at various stages between then and the Gospel. We don't mind - it's good to see them in church,....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I see no reason we ought to treat church differently than we treat anything else in our lives. Gotta be on time to work; gotta be on time to school; gotta be on time to dinner with the in-laws. Why should church be any different?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Maybe they see Sunday as a day to relax and take their time?

---

And why not? After all, the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath...

---

The clincher I think.

Not taht Sunday is the Sabbath of course, its the Lord's Day, notthe same thing at all... but the principle still applies (I hope)

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Now if people could do that for work why not do it elsewhere?

---

Because the way I manage it for work is by getting up too early and, usually, by having to skip breakfast.

Getting to work on time STRESSES ME OUT and means I start the day slightly tired and very hungry.

On days when I am not likely to be fired, I prefer to work at my natural pace, even if it means I'm late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm surprised by talk of noisy banging of doors by latecomers in the middle of quiet prayers. I was taught from early that when late you enter only during hymns, never during prayers. One can't always be on time (well Grandma was, but only after she no longer had kids at home) but one can always be aware of appropriate times, like chatting during the commercials.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm surprised by talk of noisy banging of doors by latecomers in the middle of quiet prayers. I was taught from early that when late you enter only during hymns, never during prayers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
God alone knows where you got to the conclusion in your final paragraph from what anyone's posted on here, Twilight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:I'm quite surprised by some of the attitudes here. Much of it is jugdemental, pharisaical etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Twilight - I do my absolute best to be on time. I frequently fail. And you want to condemn me for being "rude".

Thanks so much. I so need that. I so need to know that I've failed everyone by having this difficulty.

No-one's passing blame onto anyone here; I don't blame the people who are there on time for anything. But I'd thank those few who want to look down on me because I'm not as brilliant and clever and punctual as them to not do so. That is all. Just accept that I find this hard.

I manage it most times, but not always. What I'm unwilling to do is second guess and judge those who fail more often. I don't know the reasons, and what would be really rude would be assuming that I do and condemning them for it.

---

quote:

---

Just that minority who seek to use their skills of personal organisation and punctuality to feel spiritually and morally superior to the poor buggers who struggle with it.

And what's this "do whatever they want" shit? For the umpteenth time PEOPLE LIKE ME DO NOT GET TO THINGS LATE ON FUCKING PURPOSE!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm betting you hit that snooze alarm on purpose, you had that second cup of tea on purpose, you watched the rest of that interesting bit on the news on purpose and you allowed yourself to do it because, in the back of your mind, was the thought that it didn't really matter, it was only church, and if it disturbs the people who are there praying then who cares, they're just uptight control freaks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

I think you do get to things late ON PURPOSE, most of the time. .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
There could be a 1001 reasons why someone is late and none of them deliberate. If someone is deliberately late then it is something between them and God and their confessor and/or spiritual advisor. Simply, it's no one elses business.

---

This is nonsense. Just as it is everyone in the sanctuary's business when biddies spend the pre-worship time gossiping loudly while others are trying to prepare themselves for worship, it is others' business when folks come galumping in every Sunday in the middle of the service. If it's rude when you're at the theater, why is it OK when you are communing with the Almighty?

--Tom Clune
 

---

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
It's truly amazing that when many churches are grateful that anyone shows up, that regulating their attendance is such a big thing.

May I suggest: trying to be on time yourself, forgiving all those who are late, and always AGF (assume good faith), that there are Good Reasons for lateness, even if their reasons would not be good enough for you.


I write this as someone who wears a solar powered wristwatch that communicates with the radio time signals put out by the atomic clocks all around the world (and thus always knows the correct time and it doesn't matter what your watch says because mine is right).
 

---

Posted by Traveller (# 1943) on :
 
The thing that really irritates me is the "fashionably late" bit for the arrival of the bride at a wedding.

Debrett's apparently (according to a BBC article today, can't find the advice on their on-line advice bit) says it is OK for the bride to be fashionably late. This means arrive at the church five minutes before the start time, but spend all the time the photographer needs before the service starts.

Hello! I am a paid hand too, singing in the choir. Not paid as much as the photographer and not nearly as much as I think I am worth, but I was here and ready at the time you announced was the time of the wedding. Five minutes (provided I know you have arrived) is just about OK; ten minutes late and no sign of the bride will do bad things to my blood pressure. Your guests will also hear the organist improvising on "Why are we waiting?", if they bother to listen.

I have never turned around and gone home, but I have been tempted once or twice.
 

---

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
My sister was half an hour late for her wedding because the best man forgot the rings and had to retrieve them. My octogenarian grandfather in the mid-stages of Alzheimer kept looking at his watch every 30 seconds wondering where they were. I guess when you are that age time is precious.
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet:
May I suggest: trying to be on time yourself, forgiving all those who are late, and always AGF (assume good faith), that there are Good Reasons for lateness, even if their reasons would not be good enough for you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Traveller:
The thing that really irritates me is the "fashionably late" bit for the arrival of the bride at a wedding.

Debrett's apparently (according to a BBC article today, can't find the advice on their on-line advice bit) says it is OK for the bride to be fashionably late. This means arrive at the church five minutes before the start time, but spend all the time the photographer needs before the service starts.

Hello! I am a paid hand too, singing in the choir. Not paid as much as the photographer and not nearly as much as I think I am worth, but I was here and ready at the time you announced was the time of the wedding. Five minutes (provided I know you have arrived) is just about OK; ten minutes late and no sign of the bride will do bad things to my blood pressure. Your guests will also hear the organist improvising on "Why are we waiting?", if they bother to listen.

I have never turned around and gone home, but I have been tempted once or twice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
This ought to be an easy one really. The Gospels make it clear that God gives the same to those who turn up late in their lives as to those who've been there since clocking on time. It also seems pretty clear that the line "But that's not fair - I made the effort to get here on time, so I should get more pay" falls on deaf ears.

If God can not only tolerate someone turning up several decades late, but bless them equally as those who are "on-time" he can also not only tolerate, but bless equally, those who are minutes late for Mass.

That we can't do the same is because we're not as good at love as He is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gosh! I always thought Anglican churches were sticklers for punctuality! Does your church have lots of ethnic minority attenders?? The Black Majority Churches are known to have a relaxed attitude towards time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
Then there's Christ Church, Oxford as I recall, which persists (certainly used to persist) on setting its clocks a few minutes later than everyone else. Perhaps it is on a principle that of course the college has the world's best astronomers? Someone please correct me if my memory is faulty.

[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I have no idea why most people make a point to get to a doctor's office 15, 20 minutes before the appointed time which as everyone knows is at least a half hour before you're ushered into a cold room where you wait. And wait. And wait.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet:
It's truly amazing that when many churches are grateful that anyone shows up, that regulating their attendance is such a big thing.

May I suggest: trying to be on time yourself, forgiving all those who are late, and always AGF (assume good faith), that there are Good Reasons for lateness, even if their reasons would not be good enough for you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm surprised by talk of noisy banging of doors by latecomers in the middle of quiet prayers. I was taught from early that when late you enter only during hymns, never during prayers.

---

FWIW, our doors bang around because large heavy 150 year old wooden doors and hinges tend to do that, on ancient uneven flagging, no matter how discreet someone tries to be. Additionally in the small churches the entrance is always partway down the nave, coming right into the centre of the building; so at least everyone seated around the crossing will see you 'sneaking' in. Even those with their eyes shut! So making noise in this way is not an act of defiance or rudeness. It's just the only way to get into the building. As for waiting for a hymn - you could wait a long time in one of our churches, as singing tends to be sparingly used in the services!

Better to just put your shoulder to the wood and get it over with!

Twilight, I really doubt that anyone sets out to be deliberately late. Some folks may be late through carelessness of time, and clearly as St Deird and Karl etc have shared, some struggle with time issues from, I suppose, medical reasons (is that accurate to say that?). It may be understandable for the on-timers to be annoyed at the obviously careless, but it's not right to assume everyone is being selfish.

Karl, I had to smile at your envy of those of us who are 'organized and together' enough to be on time. I can't speak for anyone else, but that can come at a price, too! I'd be ashamed for my congos to see the frantic chaos of my Sunday morning preparation. And the soundtrack isn't terribly sacred either!

And you can come and clang the doors late at our churches any time!
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
I never said that anyone deliberately set out to be late. Karl said, in all caps, that he was not late ON PURPOSE and I was pointing out that except in cases of a very random accident happening or someone holding a gun to his head, he was at least in some part making decisions and choices on purpose, that effected how late he might be. I used examples which should have made that clear. There is a difference between purposely making the decision to have another cup of tea and "deliberately setting out to be late."

As pointed out those of us who are on time are not in every case well organized. I have had attention problems myself all my life, every report card I ever took home said, "daydreams in class." My college roommate loved to tell people stories about coming back from class and finding me standing in the same spot, staring at the same thing, two hours later. Yes. I don't get ten things started at once, I just come to a complete stop while my mind wanders. So I have to set alarms all day long to remind me of things like when to put something in the oven or when to start getting ready to meet someone. Buzzers went off for me three times today. If I am on time it's on purpose and a result of purposeful effort.
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I doubt if those of us who were brought up to be on time for church are now setting in the pews thinking bad thoughts about the late comers, feeling morally superior to them or failing to give grateful thanks for their fellowship.

---

quote:

---

... I really doubt that anyone sets out to be deliberately late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by roybart:

I tend to agree with Twilight's position, so I was suprized to read the following statement addressed to her.

quote:

---

... I really doubt that anyone sets out to be deliberately late.

---

The issue really isn't one of the late person's motive so much as one of how other people and events are affected.

---

Really? Twilight tells a poster that he is almost always late 'on purpose'. Can you think of many things you do 'on purpose' that couldn't be described as being done 'deliberately'? Let's try that out. 'I kicked Bishop Brennan up the arse on purpose, but I didn't [/I]deliberately[/I] kick Bishop Brennan up the arse.'

She tries to qualify this later, by talking about cups of tea etc. But the 'on purpose' reference was to being late. Not extending breakfast. If Karl wasn't being 'deliberately' late, then neither was he being late 'on purpose'. You can't have it both ways.

Obviously, her point - and it's a valid argument in context so why be coy about it - is, if you choose to put off leaving for church by some displacement activity, you're choosing to be late for church. In other words, you're deliberately choosing to be late. Either way, that's her argument. So my response to her that I doubt many people do choose to be deliberately late is completely unsurprising.

As you'll have seen, my own posts show clearly I believe in Twilight's right to be miffed at lateness. And I've equally made the point that the consequences on others of lateness are inevitable and sometimes negative, regardless of what's behind the lateness. (Which is why I think choosing not to get annoyed over it is the better option.)

But getting squirrely over being called on one's own plain statements is a waste of time.
 

---

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
bib:

quote:

---

I've always believed in the rule that if you're not early you are late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
One thing puzzles me: why are people late for church at 10.30 am on sunday when they manage to get to work and their children by school by 9 the rest of the week? Lie in? Well, you've got Saturday haven't you?

If it says 10.30 then in markland we start at 10.30 - no if's or but's. I'm at church from 9.30 to get ready, be quiet, make myself a cup of tea.

We do have people wandering in up to 15 mins late and some have to leave early if they're on an afternoon shift at the hospital. So what?

I do struggle with people being habitually late for things (not occasionals or one offs). I suppose there's only 2 main reasons - disorganisation or a desire to be seen to arrive. Neither of these are attractive traits.

Lateness can be disruptive esp as some want you to go back over what you've done when they weren't there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

She tries to qualify this later, by talking about cups of tea etc. But the 'on purpose' reference was to being late. Not extending breakfast. If Karl wasn't being 'deliberately' late, then neither was he being late 'on purpose'. You can't have it both ways.


But getting squirrely over being called on one's own plain statements is a waste of time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

---

And a disciplinary offence if the bus company catches a driver doing it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
"Squirrelly" huh? I'll add that to self-righteous, Pharisee and morally superior in my list of things you are allowed to call other people here. Not "rude," though. Never say rude.

---

quote:

---

I've heard that running late is fine, to be expected given the congestion these days, but running early is a serious no-no.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

Obviously, her point - and it's a valid argument in context so why be coy about it - is, if you choose to put off leaving for church by some displacement activity, you're choosing to be late for church. In other words, you're deliberately choosing to be late. Either way, that's her argument. So my response to her that I doubt many people do choose to be deliberately late is completely unsurprising.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

---

And a disciplinary offence if the bus company catches a driver doing it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
bib:

quote:

---

I've always believed in the rule that if you're not early you are late.

---

Actually I can think of many examples of situations where being early might be considered bad manners too. I find it disconcerting if friends turn up for a dinner party while I am still hiding all the clutter and vacuuming the living room carpet... I'd rather they were a few minutes late....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
As you very well know, Twilight, calling people rude is personal. Desist or take it to hell.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
"Squirrelly" huh? I'll add that to self-righteous, Pharisee and morally superior in my list of things you are allowed to call other people here. Not "rude," though. Never say rude.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I qualified it in my first post on the subject, with the same cup of tea analogy, to make sure people understood that I was talking about the choices often being on purpose not the plain fact of lateness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Our local bus sometimes runs early which IMO is a mortal sin.

---

And a disciplinary offence if the bus company catches a driver doing it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

---

I'd have thought that has more to do with the Sunday School teachers wanting to participate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

---

I would hope that in that one hour, the children would have been learning about the Gospel, so what's the problem?

---

Only if there's an appropriate downloadable colouring in sheet on the topic.

/entirely cynical about Sunday Schools.
 

---

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Someone comes and talks to me... I shut down my server consoles; one of them takes a bit of time to go down...Get to platform as train is leaving... Train comes. It gets delayed... In the two minutes it takes to get to the scout hut I've completely forgotten about [the papers]...

Yes, lots of places you could say "why didn't you?", but the point is that at the time all my decisions seemed sensible and the right thing to do. Yes, there are things I could do, reminders I could set, if I think of it at the time and remember to do them.

I'm well aware it's an area of incompetence, but nowhere in there is there having an extra cup of tea...

The above is normal life for me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:



So I started going to church again - a thread in eccles similar to this one had convinced me arriving 5 minutes late and entering quietly during a hymn was painfully disruptive, late comers should stay home; so, startled, I did; I'd had no idea arriving late quiet was so strongly resented as that thread expressed! No one had ever hinted that it was a problem!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
]We need a thread on coping mechanisms.

---

Good idea.

I used to have endless, endless losing keys problems. Now I have a little clip on my keys and they are clipped to the loop on my jeans/tousers ALL the time unless I'm in bed or bath. Key troubles OVER!



 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
So I agree with Anslemina that nobody (or very very few people) chooses to be deliberately late just as nobody (or very very few people) chooses to be deliberately overweight/unhealthy.

---

I think the comparison between being late for church and being unhealthy is a bit of overkill. All we are talking about is people turning up at different times. Its no big deal. If it is a bad thing at all (*) its only a little bad thing. Something that some people moan about but most people hardly notice. More at the wearing-socks-with sandals category than the dangerous-driving category. The odd thing about this thread is the way two or three posters have gone OTT in condemning latecomers as if it was some terrible moral failing, or a personal insult to them. Its not. Neither is it a disease.

(And I'm afraid I can't see the difference between "on purpose" and "deliberately" either)

(*) and to be honest I don't really think it isa bad thing, Its rather nice really. It makes life less stressfull and more pleasant. The very fact thqt many of our congregation turn up ten or twenty minutes after the start of the service, or leave before the end of it, means that I'm not under pressure to be there at an exact time, which is good.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Interesting outcomes on this thread!

Belle Ringer somteims getting the impression only the punctual are welcome at church, presumably judging the late-comers; Twilight feeling like avoiding chuch because it's the late-comers who are doing the judging!

More seriously, Twilight, do you honestly believe that as each late-comer is finding their way to their seat they're spending the time and energy directing hate-thought in your and every other church-members' direction, because you're on time? Come on. Who lets a far-fetched notion like that put them off attending their church, if they really want to be there.

Belle, I'm with you on the glasses thing. I still have a pair from when I was at college - and that was at least three prescriptions ago. You never know......
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

---

I would hope that in that one hour, the children would have been learning about the Gospel, so what's the problem?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:


More seriously, Twilight, do you honestly believe that as each late-comer is finding their way to their seat they're spending the time and energy directing hate-thought in your and every other church-members' direction, because you're on time? Come on. Who lets a far-fetched notion like that put them off attending their church, if they really want to be there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
There was a rule in my home parish that if one arrived too late to hear the Holy Gospel, then one is ineligible to go to Communion at that service. But of course the modern custom of ushering the children straight to the Communion rail after an hour of Sunday School has shot that old scruple out of the water.

---

I would hope that in that one hour, the children would have been learning about the Gospel, so what's the problem?

---

You have confused "learning about the Gospel" and the reading of the Gospel, the latter of which is a specific liturgical act at a specific time in the service, which marks a (perhaps arbitrary) line that churches have drawn concerning who may and may not partake. In short, you have made a category error.

---

The point is that the children and their teachers have missed hearing the Gospel because they were doing an age-appropriate version of what hearing the Gospel is intended to do for the adults (although, sadly, there's more than a grain of truth in Karl's comment ). This, I'd argue, is different from when one misses the Gospel because one isn't at the church on time.
 

---

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :
 
The tide of opinion on this thread is running in the direction of embracing a laid back attitude towards lateness for worship.

Questions:

Does this position also embrace those responsible for opening the church, setting up the service, donning the appropriate clothing, preparing the music, stationing themselves at the doors to welcome congregation and visitors, etc.?

Should these people have an equally free hand as to performing their roles on schedule?
 

---

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by roybart:
The tide of opinion on this thread is running in the direction of embracing a laid back attitude towards lateness for worship.

Questions:

Does this position also embrace those responsible for opening the church, setting up the service, donning the appropriate clothing, preparing the music, stationing themselves at the doors to welcome congregation and visitors, etc.?

Should these people have an equally free hand as to performing their roles on schedule?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Not all late comers, just the type I've learned about on this thread. People like Ken. It stands to reason that if he finds a church with lots of people arriving late "less stressful," then he must think a church full of people who came in on time is more stressful. So it would seem that by being there on time I'm causing stress for the Kens of the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
So I agree with Anslemina that nobody (or very very few people) chooses to be deliberately late just as nobody (or very very few people) chooses to be deliberately overweight/unhealthy.

---

I think the comparison between being late for church and being unhealthy is a bit of overkill. All we are talking about is people turning up at different times. Its no big deal.

---

I was reflecting on other areas of life where we do things of our own volition, aware of the likely outcome, but without intending, or willing that outcome. ie the whole issue of what it means to do something deliberately/on purpose.

(And I was told on Tuesday that I have impaired fasting glucose ("pre-diabetes") and am beating myself up about it because it is, of course, my own fault. That angst is probably showing )
 

---

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
The people in the local Methodist, my husband's church, come and go through out the service. The pastor himself usually starts about five minutes late. They bring food and drink with them and snack through out the service, the children bring toys and play with them rather loudly, passing of the peace is like a small party with everyone moving around the church for about 20 minutes. Most people wear jeans in winter and shorts and flip-flops in summer. The whole thing lasts almost two hours with lots of music and drums and tambourines. It's the fastest growing church in the conference. I think it's probably the wave of the future and those of us who have always looked forward to church as a quiet hour away from chaos will probably be out of luck soon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tina:
The point is that the children and their teachers have missed hearing the Gospel because they were doing an age-appropriate version of what hearing the Gospel is intended to do for the adults (although, sadly, there's more than a grain of truth in Karl's comment ). This, I'd argue, is different from when one misses the Gospel because one isn't at the church on time.

---

quote:

---

I don't know about more stressful, I would just go for describing a church where 100% of people were on time as less full. They've obviously scared off everybody else by saying (implicitly) "fuck off and go to hell, the Kingdom's not for you."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

What an interesting experience of Methodism! I'm also guessing that it's not an 'ethnic' church, so the relaxed atmosphere can't be 'blamed' on an influx of people from a different culture, which is what would normally happen (at least, that would probably be the issue in a British Methodist church)!

I think the problem some have is that MOTR to high forms of church practice often assume a high degree of precision as to what actually happens, and when, during the service. That being so, it's inevitable that lateness, interruptions and unexpected events are seen as undesirable aberrations. But there are other forms of church where time is almost always deemed to be elastic; the Holy Spirit is said to lead proceedings, and the Holy Spirit can't be controlled! This isn't exactly the justification in your case, but there's clearly something of that going on. What I sometimes wonder is, if a preacher is late why should people need to sit tutting for 10 minutes? Why can't they can sing, or pray, or share testimonies! What's so awful about that?

Would you say that your church's way of being developed organically, or had someone (i.e. the pastor) deliberately and theologically tried to create a new atmosphere or attitude in the church?

---

quote:

---

quote:Originally posted by roybart:
The tide of opinion on this thread is running in the direction of embracing a laid back attitude towards lateness for worship.

Questions:

Does this position also embrace those responsible for opening the church, setting up the service, donning the appropriate clothing, preparing the music, stationing themselves at the doors to welcome congregation and visitors, etc.?

Should these people have an equally free hand as to performing their roles on schedule?
_________________
No, of course not. The key is that they've volunteered to be held accountable to a position of responsibility while ordinary attendees have not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Not all late comers, just the type I've learned about on this thread. People like Ken. It stands to reason that if he finds a church with lots of people arriving late "less stressful," then he must think a church full of people who came in on time is more stressful. So it would seem that by being there on time I'm causing stress for the Kens of the world.

---

I don't know about more stressful, I would just go for describing a church where 100% of people were on time as less full. They've obviously scared off everybody else by saying (implicitly) "fuck off and go to hell, the Kingdom's not for you."

It's a good thing to encourage people to come on time, and also a good thing to silently extend grace and warmly welcome those who are less able to achieve that. The single parent struggling with moody kids acting up on a Sunday morning, the person so poor they have no other option than walking a long distance to get there and the mentally ill person for whom even getting out of bed was an achievement are the ones who need the church to welcome them the most.

If you have it all together and you can get to church on time, your purpose is to welcome those who don't and who can't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
That the poor person who walked to church had a harder time getting there than the wealthy one who lived thirty miles away and ran out of gas. Or that the person with depression who had trouble getting out of bed deserves more sympathy than the one with OCD who is nervous over the late start time.

---

My ex-SIL had OCD and was late for everything. She had to do so many checks before she left the house that her life was taken over by it

Maybe we are overthinking folks reaction to timeliness and to lateness? We don't ever really know what other people are thinking of us, and they rarely say.

Going to Church isn't a job, so maybe we need to be more laid back about it? The Church I attend for a few weeks every year in Mexico has a vague start time. One musician will start, the others slowly wandering in to join them. Then the congregation will drift in and join the singing. Eventually, at least an hour later, the pastor will turn up and begin!

All is cultural when it comes to worship, me thinks.

<typo>

[ 08. March 2013, 06:07: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

---

Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

All is cultural when it comes to worship, me thinks.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucia:

To me it seems some over-magnifying of what we perceive others to be thinking has been going on on this thread. I very much doubt there are many of the people who are on time who are more than mildly irritated when latecomers come in. They are allowed to be irritated. There are lots of habits and behaviours that people do in life that we find irritating. I think that those of us who are prone to lateness for whatever reason tend to react to this because we do feel guilty about it in some way, we recognise that it would be better to always be punctual and are perhaps frustrated by our own inability or failure to do so. If someone didn't care about being late or the effect it had on others I think they would just shrug their shoulders and say 'so what?' if others find it irritating. Instead we find ourselves trying to justify and explain our failure because we feel bad about it but feel powerless to change it. Isn't this something that many of us do one way or another about different issues in our lives?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
Methinks that those carrying on about being late because they can't find their keys, shoes etc protest too much. We are all running late at times, but if you are constantly late then maybe you need to look at how you organize your life. If there isn't time to have another cup of tea or walk the dog before church, then don't. It is a matter of priorities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
Methinks that those carrying on about being late because they can't find their keys, shoes etc protest too much. We are all running late at times, but if you are constantly late then maybe you need to look at how you organize your life. If there isn't time to have another cup of tea or walk the dog before church, then don't. It is a matter of priorities.

---

Gosh, you mean I need to ORGANISE my life??? That will help???

What a profound concept that I've never encountered before!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Going to Church isn't a job, so maybe we need to be more laid back about it?

---

quote:

---

quote:Originally posted by Boogie:

All is cultural when it comes to worship, me thinks.
___________________________
I think that often can mean the culture of the individual church as well as the surrounding culture and that of the participants. In some churches being there at the beginning of the service is less of an issue than in others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Going to Church isn't a job, so maybe we need to be more laid back about it?

---

Hell. Yes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Going to Church isn't a job, so maybe we need to be more laid back about it?

---

Hell. Yes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Going to Church isn't a job, so maybe we need to be more laid back about it?

---

Hell. Yes.

---

Yes, lets get our priorities right. Mammon is more important than God. He just needs to fit in with the other (more important) things, damn he's lucky I bother with Him. He should be grateful I turn up at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:


He did not add to that, "when you can be arsed to turn up."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:


He did not add to that, "when you can be arsed to turn up."

---

He didn't say we should 'turn up' at all. Surely the type of worship he speaks of is the 24/7 kind?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Talk of the sabbath is a red herring, worship is not work.

---

quote:

---

artificial encumbrances of post-industrial-revolution workplaces?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Talk of the sabbath is a red herring, worship is not work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Talk of the sabbath is a red herring, worship is not work.

---

It certainly is for the priest, the other clergy, the choir, the organist, the band, the altar servers, the altar guild (delete as required).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Do you get paid for it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
...being late because they can't find their keys, shoes etc protest too much. ...you need to look at how you organize your life. If there isn't time to have another cup of tea...

---

Gosh, you mean I need to ORGANISE my life??? That will help???
What a profound concept that I've never encountered before!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Deird:

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
...being late because they can't find their keys, shoes etc protest too much. ...you need to look at how you organize your life. If there isn't time to have another cup of tea...

---

Gosh, you mean I need to ORGANISE my life??? That will help???
What a profound concept that I've never encountered before!!!!

---

Reading this I had an "aha" moment. One of the sicknesses of modern Western culture is the pervasive pursuit of more, including cramming so much into a day's schedule that having events start at a precise time is critically important so it can end "on time" so we can cram in the next event. Cramming requires a lot of effort at organizing life, people carry calendars and day planners just to stay organized.

But life is not suppose to be organized. It's suppose to be lived. That mean stopping to chat with a neighbor when you are both in front of your houses getting into your cars to go to your churches. It means pausing to admire a sunrise or sunset. It does NOT mean making every moment "productive"!
:-)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

But life is not suppose to be organized. It's suppose to be lived. That mean stopping to chat with a neighbor when you are both in front of your houses getting into your cars to go to your churches. It means pausing to admire a sunrise or sunset. It does NOT mean making every moment "productive"!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

But life is not suppose to be organized. It's suppose to be lived. That mean stopping to chat with a neighbor when you are both in front of your houses getting into your cars to go to your churches. It means pausing to admire a sunrise or sunset. It does NOT mean making every moment "productive"!

---

But but but but ...

I am much happier, more relaxed, inspired and far better company when I am being productive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
But maybe it's just easier for those who err on the side of being organized to hide behind the appearance of being in control?

---

quote:

---

quote:Originally posted by Anselmina:
But maybe it's just easier for those who err on the side of being organized to hide behind the appearance of being in control?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
But maybe it's just easier for those who err on the side of being organized to hide behind the appearance of being in control?

---

We're doing what now? We're putting on some sort of pretentious show? My plodding effort to get to church on time is starting to sound downright evil.

---

My post has nothing - so far as I know - to do with you. It certainly wasn't directed at you, or inspired by you, or even typed with any vestige of thought concerning you.

My reply is to Boogie's and Belle Ringer's posts. And it's about those people who keep good time but are perhaps not as under control as others may think. They appear under control because they hit the mark, but the chaos and mess that underlies the effort of getting to church on time is therefore hidden. That is exactly and specifically what I'm writing about - no more, no less. I'm not interested in interpretations of what I've written involving words like 'pretentious' and 'evil' because nothing I've posted there connects in any way with such an interpretation. At least not rationally, I think. And it would hardly have been my intention to hint at such a thing. For the following reason - if for no other.

It's my own case. I've already described my pre-church prep on this thread as 'chaotic' - if anything an understatment. I have three services to fit into about three a half hours (including travelling time), and on average less than half an hour before I should be giving the greeting, I'm still folding pew sheets or dragging the dogs in from the garden. Not that that particularly matters. The point stands. And whoever else 'chaotic, but on time' may apply to, on this thread or off it, I don't know. But it is those people - myself included - I'm referring to.

My timeliness is hard won and I believe it's necessary for me to strive for. But it doesn't make me either morally superior or inferior to those who strive in their own way, and are late. And as phobic as I am about my own time-keeping, my choice not to be irritated by late church-attenders is a great release on a Sunday morning which already has enough of its own stresses to contend with.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by roybart:

quote:

---

quote:Originally posted by Anselmina:
But maybe it's just easier for those who err on the side of being organized to hide behind the appearance of being in control?

---

I'm puzzled. Earlier, you accused those who disagreeing with you of attributing motives (negative motives) to those who defend being late.

Now you are engaging in just the kind of "arguments" that you condemned when, as you saw it, they were aimed at you.

"Err on the side of of being organized" -- when used to characterize punctuality in others -- seems unfair. Just as "err on the side of laxness/sloppiness/or whatever" would be.

"Hide behind the appearance of being in control" is even worse.

These are judgments and speculations about motive (and in the second example, about character) that you are in no position to make. I would not enjoy having such statements directed towards me. Nor, I suspect, would you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Do you get paid for it?

---

No, I recieve a stipend.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Do you get paid for it?

---

No, I recieve a stipend.

---

Tomayto tomahto.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I figure that at my funeral they'll shake their heads and say "that girl was late for EVERYTHING." But if I did otherwise (spending all my time compensating for my time perception problems), nobody would show up at the funeral at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
Do you get paid for it?

---

No, I recieve a stipend.

---

Tomayto tomahto.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by goperryrevs:


There have been times when I have purposely arrived late for church. My wife and I separated last year, and one thing that I sometimes don't want to face at church is the awkward small talk that happens. I want to go in, sit at the back and be part of the service, then leave at the end. It's either arrive late so I don't have to face too many watery smiles, or not go at all. There may be a whole host of other reasons why people are arriving late, and I doubt we've scratched the surface of what those might be here. Rather than assuming that it's because they're either failures or rude, why not assume the best of each other?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

Grammatica, can't you vote with your feet? It's what I did and I'm so glad I did.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
When I am on my own, I realize that I established a practice of being just 10 minutes late so that I can avoid it. While I know that most of my churchgoing friends greatly value the social aspect, not everyone does.

---

quote:

---

pUNCTUAL people think late people are selfish, dis¬organised or lazy. But it's more complicated than that. We are the opposite of lazy. We hate wasting time — so much so that we cram every last second with purposeful activity. If I have a 30-minute journey to a 9am meeting and I'm ready to leave at 8.25, I think: `Five whole minutes. I'll send an email, put washing on...' Suddenly it's 8.45am.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
pUNCTUAL people think late people are selfish, dis¬organised or lazy. But it's more complicated than that. We are the opposite of lazy. We hate wasting OUR OWN time

---

© Ship of Fools 2016


UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0