Ship of Fools: Contemporary prophets

Thread: Contemporary prophets Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Over in Kerygmania we have a thread running on the success of prophecy.

People think of "prophecy" in different terms. Some think of predicting the future, and others think of a prophet as addressing society and pointing out what is happening (usually something bad). Both of these seem to involve speaking for God. Neither implies a person is a saint.

Here is a stick-your-neck-out question: Who in the world today (or recently) do you regard as a prophet? Who, if anyone, speaks for God? What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet? Is it ever possible to know someone still alive is a prophet?

I anticipate that someone will mention C.S. Lewis. I think he would have denied this. Does a prophet know he/she is a prophet?

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
People think of "prophecy" in different terms. Some think of predicting the future, and others think of a prophet as addressing society and pointing out what is happening (usually something bad). Both of these seem to involve speaking for God. Neither implies a person is a saint.

Martin Luther King, Jr. comes to mind in the "recent" category. If I believed in God, I'd probably accept MLK as one of His legitimate prophets.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

RH Tawney?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I'd cast my vote for Karl Barth, whose doubts about liberal Protestant theology during WWI were pretty conclusively vindicated by the happenings of WWII.

Posted by StarlightUK (# 4592) on :

Archbishop Tutu comes pretty close to being the nearest we have to a living prophet in my opinion. And also arguably the late Bishop of Chichester George Bell, particularly in respect of his outspoken views of the conduct of the Allies in WWII.
Bishop George Bell

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

My most recent hero is also a modern day prophet, but would not accept this is Charlie Brooker. His insights into the impact of media, and his presentation of this in ways that are practical is astounding.

He is giving warnings about our media obsessed culture, and I think that is a message from God, where we ignore relationships, and accept the story of reality we are pushed.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Oscar Romero, Janani Luwum, Martin Luther King.

The way of the prophet is not a popular one.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I'll see your Oscar Romero, Martin Luther King and Desmond Tutu, and raise you a Karl Marx, an Adolf Hitler, and maybe throw in an Uzbeki or Latin American dictator. All of whom have been followed as prophets.

Or do prophets have to be only those whose legacy seems positive?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Or do prophets have to be only those whose legacy seems positive?

Legacy has nothing to do with it- it's the content of the message that makes a prophet. There is only one God, and if one does not proclaim that God, one is a false prophet.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

I'd like to nominate Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Someone who was waaaaay ahead of his time.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
Or do prophets have to be only those whose legacy seems positive?
Legacy has nothing to do with it- it's the content of the message that makes a prophet. There is only one God, and if one does not proclaim that God, one is a false prophet.

Is Mohammed on your team?

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Should we draw a distinction between cult leader" and "prophet"? The prophets in the Bible are for the most part not leaders of cults; some of them seem to have been fiercely solitary individuals.

By the way, can anyone name female prophets for our list?

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

Dorothy Day.

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

Those who claim prophetic gifts are, almost as a rule, frauds. They are exposed in the end. John Wimber springs immediately to mind as one of the latter.

K.

[ 19. March 2013, 20:51: Message edited by: Komensky ]

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

I believe prophets are those who speak out in the name of God against injustice, immorality and oppression, they are, like in OT times a varied lot and having prophet status, doesn't IMO mean that one is without faults and failings. On that basis I agree with MLK, Bonhoeffer and Tutu and I'd add Mother Theresa, JPII (mainly for the role he had in supporting the Solidarity movement in Poland) and Bono for being a prophetic voice who has managed to reach a large audience of society outside typical church structures.

Oh and Mark Driscoll of course 'cos he "sees things" (mainly people having sex apparently) [Devil]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Is Mohammed on your team?

No, but before you run with that, saying he wasn't a prophet of the Lord doesn't mean he was altogether wrong, or a bad person.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

balaam. An excellent top three. I can only add one living prophet to go alongside these resting saints. Brian McLaren.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Some of these prophets you folks have nominated are probably only speaking to Chosen People of a Particular Nation. Canadian here, never heard of:

R H Tawney
Janani Luwum
Dorothy Day
Joh Wimber
Brian McLaren.

Maybe when people nominate some obscure and locally famous holy person, they can add a line or two about them and what makes them prophet material.

We don't seem to have any prophets in Canada, at least none come to mind. We've had some Very Colourful Personalities who were very good at speechifying, but that hardly makes a prophet.

Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :

May I gently suggest that your experience is not normative for all Canadians? The Shiply phrase I have seen for this is, "Don't incorporate."

I myself - though Canadian! - have read a biography of Dorothy Day and am watching a DVD series with Brian McLaren. For the others, I take the opportunity to develop my Google-fu.

For example.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

The Dalai Lama

GG

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Janini Luwum : Martyr and Archbishop of Uganda, murdered by Idi Amin. We remembered him on 17 Feb. A man in the same rank as Oscar Romero.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

Dorothy Day.

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :

Catholic anarchist? Love it. I'll look for a good biog today.

K.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

ISTM that a prophet tries to bring God's Word to an unwilling people, which cuts out some of the more bizarre suggestions here.

Let's see: God's Word, counter-cultural, unpopular because prophecy involves unsettling people:

Tutu? Check

Luwum? Check

MLK? Check

Dorothy Day? Check

Brooker? No God's Word. Uncheck

Mohammed? Prophetic, but hardly in the modern ers - something about 1400 years, y'know. N/A

Apply the test, and carry on.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Those who claim prophetic gifts are, almost as a rule, frauds. They are exposed in the end. John Wimber springs immediately to mind as one of the latter.

K.

I'm no standard bearer for Wimber, thinking of him as better than many charevo characters, although a very very long way from my cup of tea - if there's a Purgatory I trust he's going to do some time there for "Isn't he beautiful?"

But I'm not aware of fraud. I think this might be a case of EOSTFU.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

Rowan Williams is a prophet.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

It's very difficult to state categorically that someone is a prophet while they are still living, but easier to look back over the last few decades to identify with hindsight. There may well be people who only have for a fraction of their ministry been true prophets, and may even have gone badly off course at other stages of their lives. Not so different, then, to the prophets of the Old Testament.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It's very difficult to state categorically that someone is a prophet while they are still living...

I have a foolproof method -- if the person in question agrees with me that you are wrong, they're speaking prophetically.

--Tom Clune

[ 20. March 2013, 16:17: Message edited by: tclune ]

Posted by Wilfried (# 12277) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
Or do prophets have to be only those whose legacy seems positive?
Legacy has nothing to do with it- it's the content of the message that makes a prophet. There is only one God, and if one does not proclaim that God, one is a false prophet.

According to the Jews, you can't really know a true prophet until after the fact; the proof is in the pudding, as it were. I think the same is true now. We may have our suspicions, but we won't truly know who the modern prophets are until history has spoken.

There was a time when even some Westerners would have called Mao prophetic; the content of his message was freedom and justice for the working and peasant classes, an end to tyranny and western imperialism, etc. etc. Today, not so much. Martin Luther King on the other hand looks like he'll stand the test of time.

Posted by Wilfried (# 12277) on :

Double posting to add, true then as now, this doesn't help much in deciding who the true prophets are now. In Biblical times, there were plenty of false prophets floating around, and they presumably had followers, otherwise they wouldn't have been mentioned. And many of the prophets weren't exactly popular in their day, so the people of their day didn't necessarily see them for what they were. The prophets handed down in Scripture are the ones the canonizers decided were true long after the fact.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

Morrissey

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Me, obviously, but you knew that.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Me, obviously, but you knew that.

Good point -- false prophets are prophets, too...

--Tom Clune

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

From this morning's reading,

quote:
“For twenty-three years, from the thirteenth year of King Josiah son of Amon of Judah, to this day, the word of the Lord has come to me, and I have spoken persistently to you, but you have not listened.” Jer 25:3 NRSV

A prophet is not just someone who is inspirational or who speaks provocatively and with a loud voice. He or she is someone called by God and who speaks on behalf of God, to impart God's message, not his or her own.

It is not enough just to have discerned through study, thought, or whatever, what we think God might be saying, or to assume that God feels what we feel strongly.

Applying that test, rather than 'someone that I find inspirational', do any of the names that have been canvassed still rank as prophets?

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

I would suggest Tommy Douglas for his application of "Do this unto the least of these" in the development of universal health care in Canada. How else could a flyweight Baptist preacher from deepest rural Saskatchewan convert an entire country?

Despite the staunch conservative nature of many Canadians and the opposition of the people who control the money... and the presence nearby of a very large number of people who think the whole idea is crazy and "socialistic" (duh!)

The old CCF was staunchly social-justice oriented and, at one time, were clearly prophetic as a party.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

Hortseman Bree
great point Douglas was way ahead of his time in seeing government as helping people who
were on the margins of society. I think he he lived , or tried to live the citation in my signature [Smile]

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:

Who in the world today (or recently) do you regard as a prophet?

No one.

quote:
Who, if anyone, speaks for God?

No living person I've heard of. I believe God speaks to us through the bible and Jesus was God's word made flesh.

quote:
What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet? Is it ever possible to know someone still alive is a prophet?

They can't ever be wrong about anything.

Posted by Josephine (# 3899) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet? Is it ever possible to know someone still alive is a prophet?
They can't ever be wrong about anything.

That would seem to leave out David.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!

Jengie

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

ISTM that a prophet is known for his bringing of the Word of God, with his other failings not being enough to matter. He will have failings - he's human, after all - but the importance of his message will shine through despite those failings.

Plus, of course, he isn't necessarily one of the "chosen" from among Those Who Matter, as defined by the world.

Hence my sponsorship of Tommy Douglas. Undersized, weakened by childhood illness, a preacher in a minor denom in an unfavorable part of a thinly-settled, relatively poor province, who became an inspirational figure because of his preaching the equality of all people and the need to look after all equally.

The fact that he became a provincial leader with arguably the most impressive record (13 successive balanced budgets in an economically weak province, while paving (for the first time) the roads and opening a network of hospitals) while still being an effective voice for the dispossessed, doesn't hurt either.

And he did not alienate those in other parties, except for pointing out where they erred from a Christian viewpoint. Even than, he was respected (and feared) by the Real Politicians.

Oh, and he was voted to be the Greatest Canadian a generation after he died, despite all the celebrities that were available. Not bad for a preacher.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

It's hard to make sense of the concept of the prophet in modern Britain. It's a postmodern, pluralistic culture. Can any individual claim to speak to or for the nation when there are so many warring ideas (increasing daily, thanks to the internet) of what the nation should be? It almost seems presumptious.

Some Americans talk of 'speaking truth to power' but is it possible to do so without already having some degree of power? Doesn't a prophet need to be heard by the whole nation before they take the liberty of ignoring him (or her)? Someone mentioned Rowan Williams, the former Archbishop of Canterbury and theoretically part of the establishment; is that the level of power required to be heard by the nation and by elected leaders?

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet? Is it ever possible to know someone still alive is a prophet?
They can't ever be wrong about anything.
That would seem to leave out David.

If David was a prophet, what was Nathan for?

[ 23. March 2013, 21:56: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!

Jengie

What did Moses say that was wrong? All I know of was his hitting that rock with a stick, but did he say something out of line?

Elijah? Where did he foul up? If he did, I don't recall it off the top of my head.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If David was a prophet, what was Nathan for?

Elijah to David as Elisha?

[ 24. March 2013, 04:05: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!

Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong?

He killed a man.

That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!

Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.

That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

I thought it was because he struck the rock.

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

The Orthodox on the ship might be able to contribute to this... AFAIK there is a concept of "kardiognosis", which is apparently a sort of spiritual claivoyance, a gift given to what is called "Spirit Bearers", deeply spiritual members of the community (not necessarily ordained priests).

Does anyone know more about this gift?

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!

Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.

That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
I thought it was because he struck the rock.

I thought it was because he struck the rock twice, the 2nd strike indicating a lack of faith in not having been satisfied with striking the rock just the one time. I didn't think it had to do with him killing the Egyptian, since God appeared in the burning bush to Moses well after that event, and made no mention of it then.

[ 24. March 2013, 19:47: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Actually it would leave out Moses and Elijah as well!

Jengie
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.

That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
I thought it was because he struck the rock.

That's my understanding of it:

Numbers 20:9-12

9 So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

12 But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

I talked this morning to a certain fellow I bounce things off of when I wonder about certain stuff. He seems to be about the wisest guy I know even though he was the top Democrat in our county for a good while. He reminded me of Jesus on the road to Emmaus:

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

So, there were things to be fulfilled from all three, but all three listed. So, were Moses and David actually prophets, too? I'll go out on a limb and say I don't know for sure and am open to ideas.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Let's extend it a little bit: Do you know anyone personally who, in your own life, you can regard as a prophet? That is, people have been naming "public prophets", prominent individuals who had effects on society in general. Can we have personal prophets?

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Let's extend it a little bit: Do you know anyone personally who, in your own life, you can regard as a prophet? That is, people have been naming "public prophets", prominent individuals who had effects on society in general. Can we have personal prophets?

That would be pretty tough to do. One man's public prophet is often another man's public menace.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I'm not sure if I could name a person who I regarded as a prophet per se (see my comment further upthread about how it's much easier to see with hindsight than in the present), but I have learnt heaps of things by listening to the wise comments and advice of many different people over the years. Like many parents, I'm amazed at how much I've discovered by listening to my own children. At times, they have been quite prophetic. Kids tell it how it is.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Like many parents, I'm amazed at how much I've discovered by listening to my own children. At times, they have been quite prophetic. Kids tell it how it is.

Ain't it the truth? Years ago I yelled a bad name at someone who cut me off in traffic while I was taking one of our kids to a sitter. Guess what my daughter called the baby sitter as we walked in? Guess who felt like a moron?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
ISTM that a prophet tries to bring God's Word to an unwilling people, which cuts out some of the more bizarre suggestions here.

Let's see: God's Word, counter-cultural, unpopular because prophecy involves unsettling people:

Tutu? Check

Luwum? Check

MLK? Check

Dorothy Day? Check

Brooker? No God's Word. Uncheck

Mohammed? Prophetic, but hardly in the modern ers - something about 1400 years, y'know. N/A

Apply the test, and carry on.

Depends what you understand as Gods Word. If you mean self0identification as Christian, spurting their words underlined by the Bible then I would take exception with you.

The best place to find prophets - in the sense of people who are bringing Biblical truths to people who have not heard them is song lyrics. Some fantastic truths to be found there, especially amongst those who don't know that their words could be considered Christian.

If you want to dismiss Brooker, look at Eco and others who developed the idea of hyper-reality, and you will find people who saw the future and saw the danger, and then highlighted them.

Prophecy - in any form - is about bringing people to face the biblical truths. It is not about limiting it to Christians or religious people. The people who piss me off most are those who thing that God only speaks to Christians. TBH, I suspect he has got fed up with talking to Christians, who don't listen, and spiritualise everything, so he now talks through all sorts of other people instead.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Who in the world today (or recently) do you regard as a prophet? Who, if anyone, speaks for God? What litmus test identifies a person as a prophet?

I think we're all aware that various founders of new religions in the past two hundred years claimed to be prophets. Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Sun Myung Moon, etc.

As a member of the New Church I would claim that Swedenborg is a revelator. I don't know if that is the same as a prophet, but we don't call him a prophet. In his books he claimed that there was nothing from himself, but that it was all from Jesus Christ.

I think the litmus test is whether you believe an outrageous claim like this. I know I don't believe it about the people mentioned above, but would consider them frauds.

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Does a prophet know he/she is a prophet?

In one sense, yes, if they themselves are making claims to speak for God.

In another sense many people that have been mentioned on this thread can be called prophets after the fact because we admire their wisdom and prescient ideas. They wouldn't call themselves prophets.

[ 24. March 2013, 23:02: Message edited by: Freddy ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I talked this morning to a certain fellow I bounce things off of when I wonder about certain stuff. He seems to be about the wisest guy I know even though he was the top Democrat in our county for a good while. He reminded me of Jesus on the road to Emmaus:

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

So, there were things to be fulfilled from all three, but all three listed. So, were Moses and David actually prophets, too? I'll go out on a limb and say I don't know for sure and am open to ideas.

I don't think that follows. The Jewish scriptures are seen as having three ingredients, Law (Torah), Prophets and Writings.
Moses = Law
David = Writings.

quote:
Originally posted by HCH
That is, people have been naming "public prophets", prominent individuals who had effects on society in general.

For the reason I've mentioned earlier, however influential or inspirational they might be, I don't think being a 'prominent individuals who had effects on society in general' makes anyone a prophet.

quote:
ditto
Can we have personal prophets?.

In what sense? Do you mean that for you, someone who has influenced you or inspired you, becomes a prophet? Or do you mean that you believe that there has been someone who has passed on a message of God personally directed to you, somewhat in the way recorded of people like St John Vianney?

I don't think we can have a personal prophet all of our own, a sort of private prophet. That would be a negation of something fundamental to what a prophet is. What makes a person a prophet is not that we find what they say inspiring or meaningful. It is that they speak on behalf of God. This has consistently been rather rare. That St John Vianney and a few others seem to have been able to discern what God was saying in a way not open to the rest of us, has been the fruit of many years of deeply consecrated living.

It would also be a very frightening gift/calling to have. The temptations must be of an order that most of us could not even imagine, yet alone withstand.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

A prophet is one who "shows forth" problems with contemporary societies. Amos comes to mind, as well as Hosea.

With that in mind, I would list modern folk singers (many songs address modern problems, not just folk),

A good example was "Who Will Stop the Rain" by Credence Clearwater Revival. It speaks to the then bombing of the US against North Vietnam.

Another contemporary prophet I enjoy is Elizabeth Warren, the freshman Senator from Massachusetts. I look for her to be the next Democratic nomination for Presidency. At least she will have my vote in the local caucuses.

We all have a prophetic role when we speak truth to power.

I would recognize some of the shipmates here as prophets as well.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
We all have a prophetic role when we speak truth to power.

And we all have the unpleasant task of listening to prophetic voices speaking to powerful us. The problem is that we readily say, "You go, girl" when the prophetic voice is directed at someone else, and unfailingly say, "Shut up" when it is directed at us.

--Tom Clune

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb] I talked this morning to a certain fellow I bounce things off of when I wonder about certain stuff. He seems to be about the wisest guy I know even though he was the top Democrat in our county for a good while. He reminded me of Jesus on the road to Emmaus:

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

So, there were things to be fulfilled from all three, but all three listed. So, were Moses and David actually prophets, too? I'll go out on a limb and say I don't know for sure and am open to ideas.
I don't think that follows. The Jewish scriptures are seen as having three ingredients, Law (Torah), Prophets and Writings.
Moses = Law
David = Writings.

I can't argue with you when it seems you and Jesus are both saying the same thing about it all.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
A prophet is one who "shows forth" problems with contemporary societies. Amos comes to mind, as well as Hosea.

With that in mind, I would list modern folk singers (many songs address modern problems, not just folk),

A good example was "Who Will Stop the Rain" by Credence Clearwater Revival. It speaks to the then bombing of the US against North Vietnam.

Another contemporary prophet I enjoy is Elizabeth Warren, the freshman Senator from Massachusetts. I look for her to be the next Democratic nomination for Presidency. At least she will have my vote in the local caucuses.

We all have a prophetic role when we speak truth to power.

I would recognize some of the shipmates here as prophets as well.

Well, here's an example of one man's prophets being another man's public menace.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

The prophetic role is to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.

I sometimes am uncomfortable when the prophet is speaking to me.

Martin Luther King afflicted my views on race.

Gloria Stienem afflicted my views on sex.

Various people--John Kerry for one--afflicted my views on war.

My wife afflicted my views on God

My children afflicted my views on discipline

The list can go on.

However, because of the above I admit I changed over time.

Now I am with the other 98% who want to address the issue of income inequality in the US.

I think before I vote.

I was the only person on a message board that was critical of the Iraqi War from the get go (and got a lot of flack--no pun intended--for it).

I still am challenged by my adult children on various issues, but I expected that. I know I challenged my parents in a number of ways too.

There are still prophets that disturb me, but I know God is still at work in me, changing my perspective on many issues.

However, I think the greatest compliment one of my kids gave me after he graduated from a fairly liberal college was that he did not realize just how liberal his mother and I were until he started at that college.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
A prophet is one who "shows forth" problems with contemporary societies. Amos comes to mind, as well as Hosea.

With that in mind, I would list modern folk singers (many songs address modern problems, not just folk),

A good example was "Who Will Stop the Rain" by Credence Clearwater Revival. It speaks to the then bombing of the US against North Vietnam.

Another contemporary prophet I enjoy is Elizabeth Warren, the freshman Senator from Massachusetts. I look for her to be the next Democratic nomination for Presidency. At least she will have my vote in the local caucuses.

We all have a prophetic role when we speak truth to power.

I would recognize some of the shipmates here as prophets as well.

No, that is not what a prophet is. Nor is it what makes Amos and Hosea prophets. The essence of prophecy is not 'speaking the truth to power'. Despite Pilate's famous question, it's often fairly obvious what 'the truth' in public affairs would be. The problems are:-

a. Getting to a position where powerful people can hear you, and

b. Courage.

Those are both important. The latter is praiseworthy. For most of us the nearer we get to power, the more cautious we become with what we say.

But plucking up the courage to say something that's fairly obvious and doesn't require unusual gifts to perceive but might be dangerous to utter, laudable though it may be, does not make one a prophet.

Prophecy is knowing and imparting the mind of God. That is something quite different and very rare.

I regret I don't know the two specific examples you mention. So I can't comment on whether either meet that test. I'd be reluctant to deny this categorically, but I can't offhand think of any singers, whether folkies or any other genre, or currently active politicians that have.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

If it turns out there are real prophets, I doubt I would find any in the politics or mass media.

Posted by tclune (# 7959) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
If it turns out there are real prophets, I doubt I would find any in the politics or mass media.

--Tom Clune

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

I nominate Michael Leunig, probably not the only cartoonist but he is much more than that.

GG

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

Prophets also called the community of faith into a proper relationship to God. They reoriented people around God's priorities.

I'll be keeping a weather eye on Papa Francis in that regard.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
...Oh and Mark Driscoll of course 'cos he "sees things" (mainly people having sex apparently)

You mean? ...no, I'm not even going to go there. [Disappointed]

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.

That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

Nope. God asked Moses to strike the rock once to get the water for the thirsting Israelites. In an act of disobedience based on lack of faith, he struck the rock twice. It was punishment for this, which was the reason Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.

That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
Nope. God asked Moses to strike the rock once to get the water for the thirsting Israelites. In an act of disobedience based on lack of faith, he struck the rock twice. It was punishment for this, which was the reason Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

It appears to me that he was told to just talk to the rock.

Numbers 20:7-11

7 The Lord said to Moses, 8 “Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.”

9 So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
What did Moses say that was wrong?
He killed a man.

That's why he wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.
Nope. God asked Moses to strike the rock once to get the water for the thirsting Israelites. In an act of disobedience based on lack of faith, he struck the rock twice. It was punishment for this, which was the reason Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land.

Bit bloody touchy, this God bloke of yours isn't he? I mean, I've got kids, if I reacted to their responses to me like this I'd be considered stark staring bonkers and the kids would be with foster carers.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

That's what I think of the whole (reductionist) evangelical message. For me, a prophet is someone who can cast a general light on God's general word, not one who can pick out of the bible 10 clear-cut steps for people to get instant salvation.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0