Ship of Fools: UK Christianity's greatest success story

Thread: UK Christianity's greatest success story Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=025248

Posted by Drewthealexander (# 16660) on :

The Independent on Sunday opined that the Alpha Couse was worthy of this description.

What would be yours?

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

The Iona Community, perhaps.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Good News .

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

The Church of England still being vaguely viable in the 21st Century.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Agreed

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

I nominate the British choral foundations. They are the envy of the rest of liturgical Christendom. The number of American choirs that even approach their standard can be counted on the fingers of one hand. That they continue to do such beautiful work-- if anything, improved over the past fifty years-- given various mounting challenges financial, biological, and cultural, is miraculous.

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
The Independent on Sunday opined that the Alpha Couse was worthy of this description.

What would be yours?

So a smug and often disingenuous course of apologetics based on a transparent bait-and-switch is the best thing Christianity has done in the UK?

No wonder the church is so fucked.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Tolerance and diversity (not as much irony as you think there...)

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

The Christians up and down the uk who are making a real difference to the lives of others where they live and/or work.

God help us all if the smug middle class lifestyle sessions of the Alpha course are the greatest success story - thank God it ain't so IME.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Christians doing nice, kind things up and down the country isn't really news, though, is it? Or rather, they need to be doing nice, kind things in a distinctive way that has a measurable, widespread influence.

Alpha is a programme with a measurable, widespread influence. It's used in churches of all kinds. It has a high level of brand awareness. The fact that it has such vocal detractors, both inside and outside the church, is another sign that it's too important to be ignored. There's even been a novel written about it!

Anyway, the ongoing creativity of British Christian songwriting is surely something to be proud of. And maybe one could add the Street Pastors initiative, or Fresh Expressions. But these are projects yet to approach their full potential.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

It was smug middle and upper class Christians who brought about things such as the abolition of slavery and improved prisoner welfare.

If Christians aren't even prepared to celebrate people coming to Christ , from whatever social background , then we don't have to look very hard to see one reason as to why the Church is fucked.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

That reminds me:

the Fair Trade and trade justice movements, both with a strong core of Christian involvement. Jubilee 2000 and Make Poverty History have had tangible impacts on UK development policy.

[ 04. April 2013, 13:48: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Greatest successes of Christianity in UK in the early twenty first century, well I check Peter Brierly for figures see this document.

His figures suggests that Smaller denominations (36%), Pentecostal (27%) and New Churches (12% : I suspect higher but these are very difficult to count) are doing the well. Now these increases are on a relatively small base, but we are entering a world where the main form of church is not the older denominations but a rather more free/entrepreneurial approach favoured by these groups.

In which case I suspect these boards are not the right place to ask about the greatest success question. Our blinkers are on and we are largely not seeing the growth.

The biggest success however will be the way the Church survives this change.

Jengie

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
If Christians aren't even prepared to celebrate people coming to Christ , from whatever social background , then we don't have to look very hard to see one reason as to why the Church is fucked.

If Christians can't convince people to join their religion without a long course of dishonest apologetics, falsely advertised as an opportunity to ask questions, the church's fuckedness is pretty obvious anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Alpha is a programme with a measurable, widespread influence. It's used in churches of all kinds. It has a high level of brand awareness. The fact that it has such vocal detractors, both inside and outside the church, is another sign that it's too important to be ignored. There's even been a novel written about it!

Ah yes, too important to be ignored, like a Roman emperor. As Jesus said:

quote:
Blessed are those who have a high level of brand awareness, for theirs is the Kingdom of God.
Blessed are those who have vocal detractors, for there is only one thing worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.

I always had an idea that Christianity stood for something more than marketing strategies, buzzwords and the ends justifying the means. Still, what do I know?

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

And I always thought it was about coming to Christ not 'joining a religion'. Silly me.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Tomayto, Tomahto.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Relationship, rules.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Relationship, rules.

But people do seem very keen on the latter. Like I have to believe in a Virgin Birth. I must believe in a physical literal resurrection. Those seem like rules to me. They seem like things to sign up to when joining a religion to me. If it's about the former, then why the huffiness about orthodoxy?

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

The relationship is paramount. But any relationship has rules in order to properly function eg: I'm married to Mrs Black, but if I beat her up everyday, that's not much of a relationship (at least not for her); hence, stemming from the fact of my relationship with her, there's a rule that I don't beat her up.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

That's not the sort of rule I'm talking about, though, is it? It's something you choose not to do because doing so would negate the concept of there being a relationship.

Many of the "rules" Christians seek to impose on one another seem nothing of the kind. Rules about what we must believe, for example.

On the face of it it seems like you're comparing doubting the virgin birth with wife-beating. I'd be a bit careful on that one, if I were you. [Biased]

[ 04. April 2013, 14:45: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

You have a point. The added complication with a non-material/ non-corporeal relationship is that one has to have an idea of the other person involved outwith that provided by our usual senses. So, yes, I agree that there are certain rules that pertain to Christianity that have nothing to do with the quality of the relationship but rather with it's object. But I would classify these rules as primarily descriptive (Virgin Birth) as opposed to proscriptive (no wife-beating).

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

The Media not only being interested in main religious news items eg. choosing of the Pope and the Installation of the Archbishop of Canterbury, but also devoting hours of column inches and airtime to these items.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I always had an idea that Christianity stood for something more than marketing strategies, buzzwords and the ends justifying the means. Still, what do I know?

Firstly, I take it as read that for Christians, Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and his is the example we should follow. That's true for 'UK Christianity', and all other national forms of Christianity, at all points in history. We all know that, so I surely don't have to spell that out! However, the article in the Indy was trying to highlight a contemporary aspect of British Christianity that in some way was newsworthy (since the Indy is a newspaper) as well as successful, by a certain set of criteria.

I don't think you have to approve of the Alpha course to recognise its - partial - success as a famous and programmatic form of Christian evangelism that's travelled from Britain and around the world. That's simply a matter of fact. What we might think of the form, the content and the globalisation of Alpha is another matter entirely. I have my own reservations about Alpha, although they're probably not exactly the same as yours.

[ 04. April 2013, 18:04: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

I don't think you have to approve of the Alpha course to recognise its - partial - success as a famous and programmatic form of Christian evangelism that's travelled from Britain and around the world. That's simply a matter of fact. What we might think of the form, the content and the globalisation of Alpha is another matter entirely. I have my own reservations about Alpha, although they're probably not exactly the same as yours.

The fact that Alpha achieves what it sets out to achieve does not make it "UK Christianity's Greatest Success", which is what the OP referenced. It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

That the Christian faith, which seems to have disappeared in what's now England after the Anglo-Saxon invasions, survived the Danish ones and prospered under Alfred and thereafter?

Or the evangelism of large areas of Africa and elsewhere in the C19?

[ 04. April 2013, 20:51: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

I'd have thought that the twice (partial) abolition of slavery ought to be a strong contender (shared with worldwide Christianity and Enlightment values respectively).

The reintroduction in the middle is probably a strong contender for a low point (again shared between all parties).

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
The fact that Alpha achieves what it sets out to achieve does not make it "UK Christianity's Greatest Success", which is what the OP referenced. It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.

As to whether Alpha is what Jesus had in mind, the same question could be asked of any of the plentiful Christian movements, denominations and projects that the British have come up with and exported around the world over the centuries.

Actually, I'd assumed that the article was talking about a contemporary success, in which case Alpha is a reasonable example. But if we're talking about the whole of British church history, then Alpha's probably not very distinctive.

Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Relationship, rules.
But people do seem very keen on the latter. Like I have to believe in a Virgin Birth. I must believe in a physical literal resurrection. Those seem like rules to me. They seem like things to sign up to when joining a religion to me. If it's about the former, then why the huffiness about orthodoxy?

It is not a rule, it is just logical that you can´t have a relationship with a person which you believe is not alive, or only alive in a "non-literal way".

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?

Oh, I've heard plenty of talk about "Back to Church Sunday", gushing media articles about how individuals' lives have been changed, but how can it be such a success story when people are still deserting the churches?

Therefore, I can't describe anything contemporary as UK Christianity's greatest success story - all I see is failure. [Frown]

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.

The basic format of Alpha is meal together, talk and then discussion. Jesus liked to be at meals. I suspect people would ask him about stuff at the meal, and his teaching method often involved posing questions to those there, which would provoke discussion. So, as a style of reaching people, my opinion is the Jesus would like it.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It was smug middle and upper class Christians who brought about things such as the abolition of slavery and improved prisoner welfare.

If Christians aren't even prepared to celebrate people coming to Christ , from whatever social background , then we don't have to look very hard to see one reason as to why the Church is fucked.

Mark Betts [[ LIKED ]] this (apart from the 'F' word.)

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Relationship, rules.
But people do seem very keen on the latter. Like I have to believe in a Virgin Birth. I must believe in a physical literal resurrection. Those seem like rules to me. They seem like things to sign up to when joining a religion to me. If it's about the former, then why the huffiness about orthodoxy?
It is not a rule, it is just logical that you can´t have a relationship with a person which you believe is not alive, or only alive in a "non-literal way".

No, I believe that Jesus is alive in a quite literal way, or at least that if he isn't Christianity's a bit pointless. You appear to be assuming I've said things I haven't said.

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.
The basic format of Alpha is meal together, talk and then discussion. Jesus liked to be at meals.

I like to eat, too. I find it helps in staying alive. Did you have a point?

quote:
I suspect people would ask him about stuff at the meal, and his teaching method often involved posing questions to those there, which would provoke discussion.

Well, if you suspect it, it must be true.

quote:
So, as a style of reaching people, my opinion is the Jesus would like it.

Any interest in discussing the substance?

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?

Thing is, how do we know what the church membership / attendance situation would have been without the Alpha Course? I wonder if any serious research has been done to compare areas where Alpha has been run with areas where it has not; and likewise for other 'introducing Christianity' courses, if Alpha specifically isn't one's cup of tea.

I think Christians Against Poverty deserve a mention. They've helped thousands of people get out of debt, introduced Jesus to many people who were completely unchurched, and won several secular awards for being a good employer. My church runs a CAP centre and it's been just brilliant in many different ways.

Funnily enough, there's an interesting contrast with Alpha, in that CAP brings the Christian message to many people who know virtually nothing about it, whereas Alpha seems effective at giving already interested people a forum for exploring Christianity further.

Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?...

Ah yes, the elephant in the room, which everybody tries to ignore. So, what exactly is the point of putting money and resources into Christianity if it is beyond the point of no return anyway? It doesn't even delay the inevitable; all it does is keep a small army of priests and ministers in employment for a bit longer. Short of making church-going compulsory, there isn't going to be a great revival. It's a bit like the Welsh language - however many resources the Welsh Assembly spend on promoting it, it will continue to decline, because people don't see the point of learning or speaking it. And like Welsh, all that will remain will be groups of middle-class hobbyists and literati.

How about looking ten or twenty years ahead, and planning now for a radically slimmed-down Christianity - with maybe just the cathedrals and a few larger churches keeping the choral tradition alive, and the rest opened up to community groups and other faiths. Because that's what will happen anyway, so we might as well start thinking about it now.

At least, that's how I see things going.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Mae ofn gen i eich bod chi'n gywir/I fear that you're right [Biased]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

From the linked Independent article in the OP:-

quote:
Twenty years ago, evangelical Christianity was a fringe activity, associated with loony American cults.

Wilberforce?; Clapham Sect?; J C Ryle?: Donald Coggan?; John Stott?

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It may be Nicky Gumboil's success story, or HTB's; but as others have said, that doesn't mean it's necessarily what Jesus had in mind.
The basic format of Alpha is meal together, talk and then discussion. Jesus liked to be at meals.
I like to eat, too. I find it helps in staying alive. Did you have a point?

Perhaps I should have made it clearer that is meals together with others which is significant. This does seem to be something which Jesus did, and (of course) invites us to do with him.

quote:

quote:
I suspect people would ask him about stuff at the meal, and his teaching method often involved posing questions to those there, which would provoke discussion.
Well, if you suspect it, it must be true.

I'm just inferring from the NT accounts of such meals. Do you think when Jesus was at such a meal, the folk there would be all coy and English and not talk about religion?

quote:

quote:
So, as a style of reaching people, my opinion is the Jesus would like it.
Any interest in discussing the substance?

There have been discussions previously on the content of Alpha, if that is what you mean. From my point of view it is not a very surprising, fairly standard evangelical telling of the Gospel and the christian life, with an emphasis on charismatic matters which is a bit too much for some. However, the standard content does get adapted for different contexts. I believe that Catholics are using Alpha in a number of countries.

Perhaps the substance should be measured in the change in people, and I do know people whose lives have been changed significantly having encountered God through Alpha (and not all smug middle class people). Even the (formerly) smug middle class find themselves doing the kinds of good works which have been mentioned in this thread.

For instance, HTB (not my church) does a lot with prisoners, ex-offenders and the homeless.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
From the linked Independent article in the OP:-

quote:
Twenty years ago, evangelical Christianity was a fringe activity, associated with loony American cults.
Wilberforce?; Clapham Sect?; J C Ryle?: Donald Coggan?; John Stott?

Yes - what did they think Britain was like in 1993? That may have been a perception of British Evangelicalism but it was far from the reality. Then as now, evangelical churches were thriving and amongst some of the most socially active "organisations" in the UK.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

Meh. All too easy to take pot shots at HTB and Alpha.

Me, I thank God for anything that brings people to Christ. [Smile]

Alpha. Christianity Explored. Anything else. Whatever it is. [Cool]

But on a lighter note, this is admittedly hilarious - vampires on the Alpha course: [Big Grin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4anu5veNhSg

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
From the linked Independent article in the OP:-

quote:
Twenty years ago, evangelical Christianity was a fringe activity, associated with loony American cults.
Wilberforce?; Clapham Sect?; J C Ryle?: Donald Coggan?; John Stott?

Yes, quite.

I accept that we evangelicals don't have the same 'sexy' profile as Catholics [Razz]

but that's lazy journalism!

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

The Salvation Army?

Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :

When people start criticizing an activity for being "middle class" (and the person criticizing it, is very probably a middle class person too...) you just know that there is no point at all.

The problem with Alpha is... it is evangelical christianity. And people who don´t like evangelicalism will not like it. But they are doing their job. You cannot criticize a church course for teaching exactly those church´s beliefs... that´s what you expect when you go do a Church´s course. And you can´t criticize it for being too superficial, when the course is aimed exactly at newcomers and people who are not familiar with christianity.

Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
[QB] The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?

The fact that the current Archbishop of Canterbury probably wouldn´t even be a practicing anglican if he had not joined the course once upon a time is worth to be noted. And various churches that were about to be closed, with fewer then 25 parioshioners going to the main service on Sunday are now with large congregations is a good thing too. Of course it has not turned England into a very religious country, but at least it has kept many congregations from being extinct.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

And Alpha is not merely evangelical. Some Catholic parishes are using it too.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
Ah yes, the elephant in the room, which everybody tries to ignore. So, what exactly is the point of putting money and resources into Christianity if it is beyond the point of no return anyway?..

Well, I never suggested that christianity is in terminal decline. I don't believe history is like that, where people can observe constant linear progression (or regression) and thereby predict the future. My point was that, at present, the Church has got things badly wrong - although this is not helped by the fact that we (in the west) are at this time probably in a trough of materialism, secularism and naturalism.

But if we look in our history books, we should be able to see that it was never possible to accurately predict the future from one moment in time, no matter how clever we think we are.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The Salvation Army?

Well, you would say that, wouldn't you? [Biased]

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
The fact that the current Archbishop of Canterbury probably wouldn´t even be a practicing anglican if he had not joined the course once upon a time is worth to be noted...

You are aware that Justin Welby and Nicky Gumbel are fellow Old Etonians, aren't you? [Devil]

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...You are aware that Justin Welby and Nicky Gumbel are fellow Old Etonians, aren't you?

...as is Sandy Millar (I mean yet another Old Etonian who was the principal founder of the Alpha Course.)

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
...But on a lighter note, this is admittedly hilarious - vampires on the Alpha course:

Alpha Course - The Armstrong and Miller Show - BBC One

HAHAHAHA!!! [Killing me]

I LOVE it! [Big Grin]

(sorry for the quintuple post - I have itchy fingers this morning...)

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church?

Oh, I've heard plenty of talk about "Back to Church Sunday", gushing media articles about how individuals' lives have been changed, but how can it be such a success story when people are still deserting the churches?

Therefore, I can't describe anything contemporary as UK Christianity's greatest success story - all I see is failure.

Nice post - I agree! *
I also go along with The Great Gumby's posts here too of course.
As a matter of fact, I joined the thread because my screen reader read it as 'alpha cows' and I wondered what it was about. If I'd realised it was the alpha course, I would have stayed away, as I have a very low opinion of it!

*Oh dear! [Smile]

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
How about looking ten or twenty years ahead, and planning now for a radically slimmed-down Christianity - with maybe just the cathedrals and a few larger churches keeping the choral tradition alive, and the rest opened up to community groups and other faiths. Because that's what will happen anyway, so we might as well start thinking about it now.

At least, that's how I see things going.

Exactly! I think you are being a little optimistic about the time scale though, and I'm afraid that I doubt if it will happen until I'm long gone.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Nice post - I agree! *

*Oh dear!

Unfortunately SusanDoris, where we would differ is that I am talking about how things are now, but that doesn't mean the Church is in terminal decline in the west.

I would guess that you believe the opposite.

There is such a thing as Revival you know. [Big Grin]

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Nice post - I agree! *

*Oh dear!
Unfortunately SusanDoris, where we would differ is that I am talking about how things are now, but that doesn't mean the Church is in terminal decline in the west.

I would guess that you believe the opposite.

Not really; Much as I'd like it to happen in my lifetime, I'm a realist and know it will take a long time for religious beliefs to become a minority.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
...Much as I'd like it to happen in my lifetime, I'm a realist and know it will take a long time for religious beliefs to become a minority.

But really, what difference does it make? In your world view, people live then they die - the end. Why should it matter to you whether other people believe in God or not?

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

Out this afternoon, but will respond later.

Posted by Mark Betts (# 17074) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Out this afternoon, but will respond later.

OK, I'm going out in a bit too. But when you get the chance, think on this - wouldn't it be better to just leave people to believe what they choose to believe? Supposing someone is in bereavement, and the Gospel of Christ gives them some comfort through this. Even if you don't believe it yourself, wouldn't it be kinder to allow them to seek solace in their beliefs, rather than try to force them to accept your world-view? After all, in the end it makes no difference to you, does it SusanDoris?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

It hasn't been written yet. It has overcome itself to a great degree but also too little too late.

I suspect it's greatest successes so far are lost in the late Roman pre-Augustinean, Celtic, British times.

It's greatest failures include WWI and WWII of course. A cheerleader for the first and all but 99.9% acquiescence in the second. But for George Bell.

Perhaps if it - WE - truly embraced the poor and followed Jesus its success would start.

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

Plenty of examples of growing churches in the UK - between 1980 and 1992, the Baptist Union had been involved in planting 183 new churches. In the 1990s, nearly 200 Baptist churches were planted. Between 1990 and 2010 the number of members of Anglican churches in London rose by 70%. In the last 30 years, more than 5000 churches have been planted in the UK. Churches built around missioonal communities (like St Thomas Crookes in Sheffield and Mosaic Church in Leeds) have grown significantly through outreach - impact of the Fresh Expressions initiative still being assessed. Overall picture is of decline in some areas and growth in others. I'll bet we see a trend in lapsed Catholics recommitting through the influence of the new Pope.

My contribution to the o/p - the UK prot mission movements. Promoting Bible reading meant promoting reading, which had the side effect of promoting education for all. That's had a massive international social, as well as spiritual impact, recognised by secular as as well as Christian historians.

[ 06. April 2013, 12:39: Message edited by: Truman White ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It hasn't been written yet. It has overcome itself to a great degree but also too little too late.

I suspect it's greatest successes so far are lost in the late Roman pre-Augustinean, Celtic, British times.

Some might say that Celtic Christianity was eventually overwhelmed by the Augustinian type. As such it's not exactly a great 'success story', although I'm sure it left its mark.

quote:

Perhaps if it - WE - truly embraced the poor and followed Jesus its success would start.

But you talk as if the poor aren't Christians too. If the poor are Christians then they're part of British Christianity, and therefore influence it by their presence. Christianity doesn't belong to the rich, or to a church hierarchy.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I think Christians Against Poverty deserve a mention. They've helped thousands of people get out of debt, introduced Jesus to many people who were completely unchurched, and won several secular awards for being a good employer. My church runs a CAP centre and it's been just brilliant in many different ways.

Funnily enough, there's an interesting contrast with Alpha, in that CAP brings the Christian message to many people who know virtually nothing about it, whereas Alpha seems effective at giving already interested people a forum for exploring Christianity further.

My church is a CAP centre and runs Alpha, and the current Alpha attendees are mostly CAP clients.

I honestly don't get the 'middle-class' tag. There are so many ways to do Alpha that aren't dinner-parties full of accountants. Most of the ones we have run (in pubs, gyms, curry houses etc) have included everyone from company executives to homeless guys with 3 words of English.

It's worked for us over the almost 20 years we have existed as a church. Most people who come to us are 'unchurched', many have come through an Alpha course (though many in other ways too) and, as much as London is a transient city, many have stayed with us a long time.

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :

quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
When people start criticizing an activity for being "middle class" (and the person criticizing it, is very probably a middle class person too...) you just know that there is no point at all.

The problem with Alpha is... it is evangelical christianity. And people who don´t like evangelicalism will not like it. But they are doing their job. You cannot criticize a church course for teaching exactly those church´s beliefs... that´s what you expect when you go do a Church´s course. And you can´t criticize it for being too superficial, when the course is aimed exactly at newcomers and people who are not familiar with christianity.

I have used Start! As an alternative in less Middle Class areas.

The problem I have with Alpha is that it does not reflect my understanding or experience of the faith. In Catholic circles it is used as very much a first step - but culturally Alpha feels very Evangelical. It is hard to commend or lead a course which doesn't reflect your own faith.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Most British churches with the resources and the manpower to run an Alpha course probably are middle class anyway, though I'm sure there are exceptions. In addition, I understand that British Alpha is most successful at increasing the devotion and commitment of people who are already part of church life, most of whom, again, are likely to be more middle class than anything else. This may not seem like 'real' evangelism, but considering that so many people have been leaving churches, anything that gets them more involved and more spiritually refreshed is a good thing, from a Christian point of view.

The alternatives to Alpha are less well-known, so in that sense they're plainly less successful. Those who would prefer far less evangelical courses need to work out how to produce something that will rival Alpha in terms of reputation, how to create a course that churches nationwide will feel confident about investing their scarce resources in. A great course that hardly any church is prepared to use may be a local success, but by definition it won't be a great success story for the UK.

Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Out this afternoon, but will respond later.
OK, I'm going out in a bit too. But when you get the chance, think on this - wouldn't it be better to just leave people to believe what they choose to believe? Supposing someone is in bereavement, and the Gospel of Christ gives them some comfort through this. Even if you don't believe it yourself, wouldn't it be kinder to allow them to seek solace in their beliefs, rather than try to force them to accept your world-view? After all, in the end it makes no difference to you, does it SusanDoris?

I agree that people's private beliefs make no difference to me, but the huge organisations they belong to do most certainly make a difference. Religious voices are in evidence in this country's law-making and in many parts of the world their influence is far more central, causing intolerance and bigotry.And - yes, I can hear some voices here thinking, oh dear, here she goes again! - to tell children such unevidenced beliefs are true is where I draw the line.
I had such a very interesting afternoon yesterday - I'll put it in Heaven or All Saints.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Svitlana2.

The Saxons had already displaced the Chritianized Celts.

Christianity is the province of power, class, wealth still. A sanction. A self-congratulatory blessing. A ring on the finger of privilege. The Christianity of the poor is real but invisible. Neglected, deprived. Which is why Islam is so successful.

Christianity can only make a visible difference if it is SEEN to. It makes NONE in Britain or anywhere else to any extent, for good. There is no conversation, no controversy in the market place. It is rightfully sneered at for condemning gay marriage in Britain. That's IT.

The fields are white for harvest and we do NOTHING. Worse than nothing, as usual.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Christianity can only make a visible difference if it is SEEN to. It makes NONE in Britain or anywhere else to any extent, for good. There is no conversation, no controversy in the market place. It is rightfully sneered at for condemning gay marriage in Britain. That's IT.

Hmm, I know what you're getting at with this and, just looking at the UK national picture (maybe worldwide too), I agree. But in my own experience, Christianity is making a positive difference at a local level, in my town. My church seems to be building up some local respect for good deeds, in particular with reference to the school where we have our Sunday meetings. And there's some town-wide stuff that Christians from various churches are getting involved in and being held in positive regard by the secular service providers.

I expect many other Shipmates could tell the same story regarding their community, although I really do take the point that most UK national coverage of Christians and churches is negative, about stuff like the women bishops vote, gay marriage, creationism etc. (Dead Horses ahoy.)

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

Continuing this tangent:

quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
And like Welsh, all that will remain will be groups of middle-class hobbyists and literati.

I was on Ynys Môn for the Triduum, in places like Y Fali, Caergybi, Llangefni and Porthaethwy (places not known for middle-class people) and heard plenty of Welsh being spoken, including by young people. I don't know about the part of Wales you live in, but speaking Welsh on Ynys Môn and in Gwynedd (another place I am familiar with) is very much done by the working-class.

Of course, this census saw a slight decline in the amount of people speaking Welsh, but that has to take into account young people (like myself) leaving Wales, as well as English immigrants who don't learn the language (though I've known some English immigrants who have become fluent).

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Svitlana2.

The Saxons had already displaced the Chritianized Celts.

Christianity is the province of power, class, wealth still. A sanction. A self-congratulatory blessing. A ring on the finger of privilege. The Christianity of the poor is real but invisible. Neglected, deprived. Which is why Islam is so successful.

Christianity can only make a visible difference if it is SEEN to. It makes NONE in Britain or anywhere else to any extent, for good. There is no conversation, no controversy in the market place. It is rightfully sneered at for condemning gay marriage in Britain. That's IT.

The fields are white for harvest and we do NOTHING. Worse than nothing, as usual.

I certainly agree that the poor are underrepresented in the British church, and that this is a long-term tragedy. However, plenty of British church movements in the past, and worldwide movements up to the present time have been and are being generated by poorer people, so to suggest that 'Christianity' is doing nothing doesn't seem fair.

You write as an Anglican, so you tend to see the church as a powerful institution whose job it is to reach down to help poor people. I'm a Non-Conformist with Pentecostal and Third World family connections, so for me, it's essential to remember what the poor can and have done for themselves. Actually, it's their spirituality that's in the ascendant across the world, if not in the UK.

Maybe one day the disestablishment of the CofE will be a great success story for British Christianity! A state church is inevitably a church that's part of the power structure.

As for the success of Islam, that's mostly due to Muslim immigrants and their descendants, not to indigeous poor people converting. But this might become more of a factor in the distant future if Islam becomes the only communal form of religion that's widely available.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Point taken Svitlana2, thank you. That I would like to see and get involved with. Evangelical services bore me to tears and worse!

Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
...You are aware that Justin Welby and Nicky Gumbel are fellow Old Etonians, aren't you?
...as is Sandy Millar (I mean yet another Old Etonian who was the principal founder of the Alpha Course.)

No, in fact I was not even aware of what was an "old etonian" until I googled it now.

Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:

quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
When people start criticizing an activity for being "middle class" (and the person criticizing it, is very probably a middle class person too...) you just know that there is no point at all.

The problem with Alpha is... it is evangelical christianity. And people who don´t like evangelicalism will not like it. But they are doing their job. You cannot criticize a church course for teaching exactly those church´s beliefs... that´s what you expect when you go do a Church´s course. And you can´t criticize it for being too superficial, when the course is aimed exactly at newcomers and people who are not familiar with christianity.
I have used Start! As an alternative in less Middle Class areas.

The problem I have with Alpha is that it does not reflect my understanding or experience of the faith. In Catholic circles it is used as very much a first step - but culturally Alpha feels very Evangelical. It is hard to commend or lead a course which doesn't reflect your own faith.

But what exactly does Alpha teaches that don´t reflect your faith? I always hear people sayng that about Alpha, but their often very generic.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Originally posted by Mark Betts
The question I would like to ask is how successful has Alpha been? If it had really made such a huge difference, wouldn't you notice the pendulum start to swing back the other way, with Britons starting to return to church? Oh, I've heard plenty of talk about "Back to Church Sunday", gushing media articles about how individuals' lives have been changed, but how can it be such a success story when people are still deserting the churches? Therefore, I can't describe anything contemporary as UK Christianity's greatest success story - all I see is failure.

Not sure about the "failure" but I do think that Alpha and Church Planting are much over-hyped.

Why? Well, we have an evangelical/charismatic "youth-centred" outfit near which, I heard, attracts "hundreds" of teenagers every Sunday "because they find there what they don't get in their own church". I was sceptical but the children were intrigued so along they trooped...

For "hundreds" read 30-40. Children found it very similar to a Family Service at our local church and were not inspired but, on the basis that a one-off visit might not be typical they stuck with it for 3 months, at the end of which they resumed attendance at our main Sunday service with relief.

They reported that most attendees were the children of the organisers, weren't there from choice and many found the worship songs with "Christian rock-group" backing cringe-making. My children were questioned closely about what our church is like and we've had return visits of children from school who go to "living church": the structure of our service intrigued them and they appreciated the shorter length.

At our parish's recent MAP meeting this outfit was again being quoted as a huge success story with "hundreds of really committed teens present every Sunday, worshipping God in a way they find more meaningful and with songs they choose themselves": since I had advance notice this line was going to be trotted out children came with me and gave their report - very red faced promoter of "living church" and much blustering.

I'm told by their Electoral Roll Officer that the Alpha Courses run at my nearest church for the past 10 years have had little or no effect on numbers: the biggest driver of attendance in this part of the world is the requirement to attend to get into the CofE secondary school - and that is the same for all the parishes in the catchment area.

As for Messrs Gumbel and Millar, I think you'll find they were much influenced by their friendship with Noel Tredinnick (All Souls Langham Place) and Nick Page (ex-Hildenborough) and the religion-lite Prom Praise format. The meals are an inspiration and probably owe more to being within spitting distance of Notting Hill than anything more biblical.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

...and UK Christianity's greatest success story?

I'm with Alogon [Overused]

the choral foundations of our cathedrals and collegiate churches.

And the bit that may be more noticeable by Joe Public would be change bell-ringing... more difficult that it looks. [Angel]

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :

quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
But what exactly does Alpha teaches that don´t reflect your faith? I always hear people sayng that about Alpha, but their often very generic.

Try http://wquercus.com/faith/alpha.htm

I don't have an issue with others having an Alpha type faith, but I don't.

The sacraments are the beginning and ending of my experience of the faith, salvation is ongoing and corporate. I happen to be Charismatic but that is less important to me than these areas. My default perception of Christian Orthodoxy runs from Wesley to the Antiochan Orthodox.

So Alpha comes from another place. Not a bad place. Just a different one I struggle to inhabit.

Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

Not sure about the "failure" but I do think that Alpha and Church Planting are much over-hyped.

Why? Well, we have an evangelical/charismatic "youth-centred" outfit near which, I heard, attracts "hundreds" of teenagers every Sunday "because they find there what they don't get in their own church". I was sceptical but the children were intrigued so along they trooped...

For "hundreds" read 30-40. Children found it very similar to a Family Service at our local church and were not inspired but, on the basis that a one-off visit might not be typical they stuck with it for 3 months, at the end of which they resumed attendance at our main Sunday service with relief.

Well, Alpha doesn´t specify any type of liturgy or churchmanship the church must adopt in order to run the course. My church is a traditional lutheran church in Brazil and they have an Alpha course run yearly. It has brought some new members to our church alon the way, most of them young couples from 25-35 years old who were previously non-practicing catholics. We don´t have "praise bands" in our sunday service and I´m glad from that, as I find most of the praise bands I´ve seen in other parishes to be horrible.

However, I have been in other parishes that criticize the course and its results, and what they all had in common is that, despite they were so sure that our methods weren´t good, they weren´t doing anything alternatively. They merely accepted that their ethinic church will always have dwindling numbers until it becomes small enough to be closed. And most of the doctrinal criticism towards Alpha comes from the pastor´s own liberal views on the subjects of the Alpha course, which are not in harmony with our confession of faith, creeds and tradition anyway. I reckon any criticism towards a church´s course should be made from the perspective of that own church´s teachings, not from what liberals expect our church should teach. I don´t get, for example, the criticism that the Alpha course only mentions 2 sacraments... when our church´s own doctrine only recognize those 2!

However, if someone who took the course seeks to become a member in our parish, he will also take doctrine lessons that will teach some lutheran specific doctrines, for example, what we believe about the Lord´s Supper (which is not treated entirely on the Alpha course). However, I reckon those church specific stuff are not of great interest to those with little or no previous contact with the Church, and are not readily decided to become members, but only trying to explore what that religion is about.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Posted by gorpo
However, I have been in other parishes that criticize the course and its results, and what they all had in common is that, despite they were so sure that our methods weren´t good, they weren´t doing anything alternatively.

Well, in my parish we DO have alternatives - maybe of general interest at least in smaller, more rural parishes?

1. Newcomers' Party
The organiser of our door-to-door collections and the WI between them prepare an annual list of houses that have changed hands in the past year. All people who have moved into the parish are invited to the Newcomers' Party: fantastic buffet, chance to meet representatives of all the parish organisations - that is local government parish, not just church. So, reps of WI, church, football club, birdwatching group, etc, etc, are all there to meet-and-greet. It finishes with an audio-visual presentation by a local history buff - everything from the record in the Domesday Book to characters who lived in your house before you. The evening starts early and the audio-visual is sufficiently stimulating so that children of 8+ find it enjoyable.

2. Parish Magazine
Too many church mags are turgid and inward-looking: we have a magazine for all the parish - cookery, nature watch, poems from the local school, etc, etc - and virtually every household subscribes.

3. "Event" Services
We manage to involve the wider parish - particularly the CP school - in these: Plough Sunday, Mothering Sunday, Rogation Walk, Harvest, Remembrance Sunday, Christmas (special Village service, no choir), anyone who has experienced a bereavement in the past year is personally invited to the All Souls Requiem and the most recent village baby is invited to play Jesus in the Nativity tableau vivant on Christmas Day with Mum and Dad as Mary and Joseph - most of our recent infants have been girls but hey...

I could go on - our annual Fete is like something from a Marple film, complete with uniformed silver band in the middle playing selections from G&S - but you get the drift.

While the church is the driver for much of this, we work closely with the WI in particular and the result is a generally happy place where everyone feels they have a stake in the parish, and the parish church by extension. And yes, we do "do God"!

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

2. Parish Magazine
Too many church mags are turgid and inward-looking:

Some optional forms of words to help spice up the notices in church mags.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

While the church is the driver for much of this, we work closely with the WI in particular and the result is a generally happy place where everyone feels they have a stake in the parish, and the parish church by extension. And yes, we do "do God"!

Of course, not every area has an outpost of the WI (Women's Institute) that churches can call on. (And the only branch I've ever come across is definitely in a middle class area!)

Interestingly, I've never thought of Alpha as a very 'villagey' thing. The emphasis on meals and groups is perhaps more meaningful in suburban and city churches, where it's too easy for individuals to hide themselves away, and there's a real need to create community. Villages already possess a sense of community, supposedly, so there's no need to import one, but just to harness the community spirit that's already present.

Posted by womanspeak (# 15394) on :

Churches who do not provide for the non-churched, the newcomer, the enquirer, for families and their children, and who do not welcome all the ages and stages of life are dying before our eyes in the west.

And yet among this depressing reality their are centres of growth. Churches, which are growing not just by transfer but by care, prayer and the creation of community, by welcome and provision of introductory courses or opportunities for evangelism, give me hope.

Alpha is one model which can be adapted to give confidence, training and the opportunity for current church members to give account of their faith to others.

As a friend and I said to each other some ten years ago after we had taken home some oldies - who will be here to take us to church? Well in my parish we remain among the youngest - and I'm mid-sixies now. Oh to have a parish which was focused out into the community and open to evangelism.

Posted by Maureen Lash (# 17192) on :

Darke in F.

Whether you love it or loathe it it's there in every Cathedral in the land and in every parish church with any choral pretensions.

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Betts:
OK, I'm going out in a bit too. But when you get the chance, think on this - wouldn't it be better to just leave people to believe what they choose to believe?

Doesn't that chain of logic mean that you should follow the same path and not talk about Christianity?

And no. The acolytes of Nurgle who were behind the anti-vaccination scares shouldn't be left to proseletise their nonsense unopposed. People undermining our knowledge of the world shouldn't be free to pass on their misconceptions to children.

What we believe matters. And so does truth. Without getting as close as we can to the truth even if we don't reach it a lot of advancement is blocked to us.

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

And Christianity's great success stories in Britain?

Abolition. Much of the drive towards education. Fixed pricing in shops (no I'm not joking - this was a Quaker initiative for honesty).

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
Posted by Maureen Lash
Darke in F. Whether you love it or loathe it it's there in every Cathedral in the land and in every parish church with any choral pretensions.

... which could be why naughty choristers, young and old, reverse your words...

Whereas the Nunc dimittis from Dyson in F...

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
Posted by gorpo
quote:Originally posted by Mark Betts: ...You are aware that Justin Welby and Nicky Gumbel are fellow Old Etonians, aren't you? [Devil] ...as is Sandy Millar (I mean yet another Old Etonian who was the principal founder of the Alpha Course.)

... as are/were King Leopold III of the Belgians (see Heart of Darkness, Crown Prince Dipendra of Nepal (slaughtered 8 family members), Lord Lucan (suspected nanny murderer, Guy Burgess (traitorous spy), Darius Guppy (fraudster), Boris Johnson (serial shagger), Humphrey Lyttleton (jazz musician), Anthony Loyd (self-confessed sometime heroin and war junkie), etc, etc

Why the obsession with where a famous/infamous person's parents chose to send them to school?

The fact that Gumbel, Millar and Welby attended Eton is irrelevant, with the possible exception that none should therefore try to use lack of a decent education or ignorance to excuse/explain bad or mad behaviour.

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
And Christianity's great success stories in Britain?

Abolition. Much of the drive towards education. Fixed pricing in shops (no I'm not joking - this was a Quaker initiative for honesty).

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0