Ship of Fools: Is calling a female opponent a witch misogyny?

Thread: Is calling a female opponent a witch misogyny? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

Some time ago in Australia the leader of the opposition was photographed in front of protestors waving placards referring to our female PM as a witch. This caused an outcry amongst commentators and journalists that the male leader of the opposition was a misogynist (not the first or only cause to make this claim but it was this specific reference to the PM being a witch that caused a particular outcry and accusations of sexism).

So now it's international news that there's a mass campaign referring to the late Margaret Thatcher as a witch and rejoicing in her death. Nobody ANYWHERE least of all Australia has claimed that there is anything misogynistic about this insult to Margaret Thatcher.

Soooo, was it just opportunistic of Australian left-wingers to cry misogyny when opponents referred to the PM as a witch? Or is misogyny the reason behind the insults being hurled at the late Margaret Thatcher?

Or is there a third explanation??

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I think the insult is personal to Thatcher, given that she is associated with, among other things, stealing milk form children. She as close as a modern politician gets to a fairytale villain, and hence she becomes the Wicked Witch of the East, double fitting as she was from Grantham, which is in the East of England.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I think it's misogyny. If she'd been a man, she wouldn't have been hated half as much. She was the first female prime minister, that was always going to be hard. She came from a generation of women who had to prove that they were harder and tougher than men in order to be taken seriously.

People have expectations of women. Thatcher wasn't warm or cuddly, and didn't come across as soft - but she knew perfectly well that any such signs would have been seized on as evidence of feminine weakness. All she did was behave in a way traditionally ascribed to men - nobody expected strong leadership from a woman. Joan of Arc did the same thing, and nobody forgave her for that either.

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
Soooo, was it just opportunistic of Australian left-wingers to cry misogyny when opponents referred to the PM as a witch?

Yes, although it's a bit of a stretch to associate the current ALP mob with any genuine left-wingers, they are just as much in bed with those big business circles which employ lots of union members who can pay for them to get elected to Parliament.

Not only was it off the mark, the frequent use of the sexism card by Ms Gillard and her lackeys during the last three years has also desensitised many Australians to the point that any talk of sexism or misogyny is just associated with boring politicians who are all the same except when they aren't like the other mob. When real issues of sexism come up, they get lost in the background crap emanating from Canberra.

So the PM has had some people poke fun at her facial features and how she dresses - surely it's a sign that equality has come a long way that she gets exactly the same amount of respect as her mob were happy with giving to John Howard when he was the PM.

In regards to the Ding Dong nonsense, I don't think it's sexist. If it was a former male PM being the target of the same level of vitriol they wouldn't be calling him a witch. In Australia they would probably be calling him a bastard which is just as much a gendered epithet as witch, except that anybody calling that misandry would be hung, drawn, quartered, shot and crucified by the media.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
i]stealing milk form children[/i].

We got milk when I was at primary school during the fifties, a programme which was later discontinued.

I don't recall either that the discontinuation was ever referred to with any spin about "stealing milk from children", or that the politicians or bureaucrats responsible were ever demonised.

quote:
She as close as a modern politician gets to a fairytale villain,

I assume you are being ironic, because it is inconceivable that anyone could be so ignorant of history as to imagine that no modern political figure has done anything more villainous than has Thatcher.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Sounds to me the protestors were calling her a witch because they didn't like her as a politician, not because she's a woman. It's a gender specific insult, but not every use of a gendered insult is sexist.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's a gender specific insult, but not every use of a gendered insult is sexist.

Whereas I tend to suspect the mere existence of insults that are gender-specific is likely to be a sign of sexism. If there's no reasonably equivalent insult to a person of the opposite gender, then the whole point of the insult is that it's a negative attribute or set of attributes that is only ever ascribed to disliked people of a particular gender.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

I've had to revise my opinion recently, as I do now know a couple of witches, in the pagan sense.

Likening them to Thatcher seems unnecessarily cruel. So I probably won't be using that term, out of religious tolerance.

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

Times a man gets called a witch.

1: They are a Wiccan (or taken for one) - or possibly one or two other strands of pagan.
2: They are in fancy dress wearing a pointy black hat.

Times it's not mysogenistic to call a woman a witch.

See: times a man gets called a witch.

On the other hand "Wicked Witch" is actually slightly less mysogenistic than "Witch" - Witch refers to a general category, whereas Wicked Witch is bringing up a specific fairytale monster and the attributes of that monster (see: Margaret Thatcher, Bottle Snatcher) and as such is intended as a similie rather than an almost content-less insult. It's a gendered insult and inherently mysogenistic - but it isn't a stock gendered insult that can be applied equally to almost anyone.

[ 13. April 2013, 13:29: Message edited by: Justinian ]

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Hmmm. I agree that a gendered insult that has no equivalent towards the other sex probably points towards sexism. But calling someone "an ogre" may be the equivalent in the opposite direction. So maybe it's not sexist, just sex-specific. I'm not sure I'd waste a lot of energy arguing it either way.

Anyway, isn't "bastard" a term of endearment in the antipodes these days?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Of course it is misogynistic. It is, as an insult, applied to women almost exclusivly.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

What would you have suggested instead ? Wanker ? But that is basically a male gendered insult. Motherfucker ? Ditto - and, valid consideration for protest, not likely to be broadcast.

I am of the view that it is sex-specific rather than sexist - nor do I think she is targetted specifically because she was a woman. Or rather, not by the bulk of her detractors. For example, she fought the unions, ironically - whatever you may think of them - the unions were the institutions at the forefront of the fight for equality in the latter part of the 20th century.

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
stealing milk form children.
We got milk when I was at primary school during the fifties, a programme which was later discontinued.

I don't recall either that the discontinuation was ever referred to with any spin about "stealing milk from children", or that the politicians or bureaucrats responsible were ever demonised.

Before going onto the OP, on the issue of milk and school children.

In 1968, Wilson's Labour government 'stole' free school milk from secondary school kids (ie those 11+), in 1971 Thatcher continued that policy in removing free school milk from those 8-11 year olds, then the Wilson-Callaghan regime between 1974-1979 'stole' free school milk from 5, 6 and 7 year olds. It is highly selective memory application that labels Margaret Thatcher as teh 'milk snatcher'.

Which then leads me onto the OP. Every side in politics is guilty of double-standards. This is probably one of those cases, where people cry foul when aimed at one of their own but let it go by when thrown at the opposition (I think of Ed Balls 'bullying' claims - he cried foul saying he was being bullied despite being one of the biggest bullies in the House of Commons himself.)

There is also an inherent misogyny behind most insults that are applicable to women, as well as misandry to those against men - I wonder whether we are too thin-skined these days to stand up to those who can't argue reasonably and resort to insults off such a nature... whether we are more willing to take the 'easy' way out and call foul rather than grow beyond it? (That isn't meant to sound as callous as it probably does just struggling to put it into suitable phrasing!)

Surely it is better to aim to respond rationally and with facts (see my first paragraph on school milk) to try and shed truth onto the myths that pervade our politics, and aim to set the record straight in the face of petty name calling...

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Anyway, isn't "bastard" a term of endearment in the antipodes these days?

It has multiple meanings, but I don't think there's any point explaining it to a pommy bastard who's unlikely to get it [Biased]

Specifically referring to a recently deceased man as a bastard, it would be extremely rare for that to happen as a form of grudging respect without there being enough other clues to let you know which meaning is in play.

It's very rare for anything like this post-mortem hatred of Thatcher to happen in Australia, there's almost always a healthy level of dignity from all sides and (in the case of high-profile politicians) a grudging admission that they probably meant well and an unspoken agreement to focus on their less controversial major achievements. Even in the case of Sir Joh Bjelke-Peterson, the notorious former Premier of Queensland, he still managed to draw a protest crowd of only a couple of hundred people on the day of his funeral (not even in the same town at that) despite being possibly the most widely-despised public figure to die in recent Australian history.

[ 13. April 2013, 14:43: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

But the 'witch' epithet is particularly linked to the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz. She's not just any old witch, but the Witch. So not misogynistic, just anti-Tory. And she deserved it. Not that the country deserved what she inflicted.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's a gender specific insult, but not every use of a gendered insult is sexist.
Whereas I tend to suspect the mere existence of insults that are gender-specific is likely to be a sign of sexism. If there's no reasonably equivalent insult to a person of the opposite gender, then the whole point of the insult is that it's a negative attribute or set of attributes that is only ever ascribed to disliked people of a particular gender.

I've often idly pondered this question of gendered insults, because it seems that the worst insult to apply to a man is to "feminise" him. In virtually all cases a masculine insult is mild but the female version is much more offensive. The term dickhead for example (can be aimed at men or women) is a mild insult in Australia, to call somebody a pric (insult for men only) is a bit worse but "the c word" (apparently can be either gender but much more frequently an insult aimed at men) is an outrageous insult. Seems to me that it is the attitude towards women in general that is misogynistic, rather than it being misogynistic to insult any particular woman with a gendered insult.

I've been disappointed that our female PM wants to wuss-out of the political hurly-burly by playing the misogyny card whenever she cops a bit of the abuse that's part and parcel of political life.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Whereas I tend to suspect the mere existence of insults that are gender-specific is likely to be a sign of sexism. If there's no reasonably equivalent insult to a person of the opposite gender, then the whole point of the insult is that it's a negative attribute or set of attributes that is only ever ascribed to disliked people of a particular gender.

I agree, I think. Most of these sex-specific insults (eg. calling a woman politician a witch, a bitch, or whatever) are a reflection of the insulter being embedded in a sexist society, rather than a specific act of active sexism.

Lady Thatcher is not hated because she was a woman, or because she was a woman in a "man's job" or anything like that - she is hated by those who oppose her politics, on political grounds (and not really any more than the US left hates Reagan or GW Bush).

But because Lady Thatcher was a woman, this equal-opportunity hatred manifests itself in sex-linked insults due to the residual latent sexism in society.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Is the Thatcher/witch thing mysogynistic? It would be if the detractors were all, or mostly, men. In this case that is not so.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Is the Thatcher/witch thing mysogynistic? It would be if the detractors were all, or mostly, men. In this case that is not so.

That presumes that women aren't capable of thinking that women shouldn't be in charge. Which is manifestly not true. Some women do think exactly that.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
i]stealing milk form children[/i].
We got milk when I was at primary school during the fifties, a programme which was later discontinued.

I don't recall either that the discontinuation was ever referred to with any spin about "stealing milk from children", or that the politicians or bureaucrats responsible were ever demonised.

Interesting how memories can differ. I was living in the UK, as an over-20 university study, at the relevent time. "Margaret Thatcher, milk-snatcher" was a fairly popular and well-known description of the Education Minister (one M. Thatcher) at the time. I don't know that the bureaucrats were blamed -- the Education Minister, on the other hand was roundly criticized and caricatured. "Demonization" may be a touch overstated, but not by much. The fuss lasted for months.

And as for "Ding Dong" -- lt's been associated with Margaret Thatcher for years, perhaps a couple of decades -- I haven't lived in the UK for 35 years, so my memory won't be accurate as to when, but I rather think it was a song used as a wish, or prayer, possibly by those on the "wet" side of the TOry party when she was PM.

John

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

It is . And in re Mrs Thatcher totally nasty . OK the lady did a lot of things that one can ponder on the why . However she has left this life so stop moaning about her and calling her names. She was the PM of the UK at a very hard s[ot in the nations history , so show some respect/ [Votive]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Cutting out free milk for schoolchildren would have been a political decision, not one for bureaucrats. They would have been asked to provide details of savings flowing from the cuts, and so forth, but the actual decision would have been that of the various Cabinets - both Labour and Conservative.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

John Prescott has said:

quote:
She may have been a woman, but in her policies she showed no compassion to the sick, needy and the desperate.

Does he really mean to say that male politicians should not show compassion? If not, why mention her gender?

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
John Prescott has said:

quote:
She may have been a woman, but in her policies she showed no compassion to the sick, needy and the desperate.
Does he really mean to say that male politicians should not show compassion? If not, why mention her gender?

To be charitable, perhaps he means something like "Some would consider it progressive that Britian elected its first female PM, but there was nothing else progressive about Thatcher".

As opposed to reading it as an essentialist remark, ie suggesting that women can usually be expected to be more progressive than men.

[ 14. April 2013, 17:20: Message edited by: Stetson ]

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

One thing I remember about the early years of Thatcher's rule was that, at least outside of the UK, she was often more famous just for being a woman than for any beliefs she held or policies she pursued. I guess the novelty of an elected female leader, who hadn't inherited the job from a male relative, was something that really struck people who were otherwise apolitical.

I also remember(though its harder to put into words) that for many people she seemed to somehow symbolize the UK, in a way that I don't think British PMs usually did. Some time in the mid-80s, I attended a comedy revue in which the Union Jack was displayed at one point, and someone in the audience yelled facetiously "Yay, Margaret!" If the show had been held in 1978, I doubt anyone would have been yelling "Yay, Jim!"

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

If I were a follower of Wicca, I would be highly insulted to be likened to Thatcher.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
But the 'witch' epithet is particularly linked to the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz. She's not just any old witch, but the Witch. So not misogynistic, just anti-Tory. And she deserved it. Not that the country deserved what she inflicted.

This.

I find the attempt to take the moral high ground by some Thatcher supporters to be amusing.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I find the attempt to take the moral high ground by some Thatcher supporters to be amusing.

I find them more ironic than amusing, since the last person who would give a rat's ass about someone celebrating her death or calling her names would be Thatcher. These barbs may be cathartic for those hurling them, but I doubt they would have stung the intended recipient one bit.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

It's not about her, as such. For years the cultural hegemony is how wonderful she was. Those who got poorer during her time in power, those who were beaten by police, those whose city was left to die and who saw the culpability for the death of their loved-ones at Hillsborough covered-up by her government, among others have personal reasons for hating what she did. Those who benefited from her and go on about how good she was dominate the media. I'm sure there's a few exceptions, but look at the funeral to see how people are rallying around to her.

Therefore what has been expressed by some who don't like her should be seen as part of the cultural divide that we have. It's all very symbolic.

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