quote:

---

Originally posted by NJA:
I could understand people going for convenience foods and takeaways if they had lots of money & little time due to full employment, but I don't think that's the case.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
In the United States at least, people who go for convenience foods are frequently not those with lots of money and full employment. You eat fast food for cheap calories, and cheap calories do not usually come in the form of fresh healthy food.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
On Radio4's Question Time a couple of weeks ago, an employer said that since her company had committed itself to paying its workers a "living wage" rather than "minimum wage", they'd seen a noticeable improvement in workers' health and wellbeing, and she had seen workers eating more healthily at lunchtime. Poverty and obesity are linked.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
In the United States at least, people who go for convenience foods are frequently not those with lots of money and full employment. You eat fast food for cheap calories, and cheap calories do not usually come in the form of fresh healthy food.

---

On Radio4's Question Time a couple of weeks ago, an employer said that since her company had committed itself to paying its workers a "living wage" rather than "minimum wage", they'd seen a noticeable improvement in workers' health and wellbeing, and she had seen workers eating more healthily at lunchtime. Poverty and obesity are linked.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NJA:


I just remembered that Wales now has it's own government, which runs offices in far-flung places but doctors have been warning that the need of the poor unhealthy Welsh is more pressing. The WAG seems to have other priorities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

More and more studies are having unexpected results. Some show that the overweight kids don't eat any more junk food or sit in front of TV any longer than the skinny kids. A school in West Virginia tried educating the kids about food choices, serving only healthy lunches and adding an exercise program. The average weight of the students didn't change.

Elementary school children in the U.S. went from a rate of 6.5% obese to 19.5% in the years from 1980 to 2008. It's not like the kids in 1980 were working on the farm and eating fresh food from the garden. They were watching TV, eating at fast food restaurants and snacking on Twinkies just like they are now. What is going on? I don't think the answers are in yet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Ah, now we see what NJA is up to. No concern for Wales and the Welsh, just a cheap shot at the Welsh Assembly Government.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Would NJA be interested to note that in England, which doesn't have its own parliament but is effectively run from Westminster, has some 61.3% of adults are overweight or obese? Thought not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
[qbOriginally posted by Sioni Sais:
Obesity is a problem across the whole of the UK (and in this chair for a start) and I could point the finger at long journeys to work (what exercise can you do in the car, on a bus or on the train?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... the council's policy to move recreational facilities out from the centre of town so one has to drive to the bloody things!

---

quote:

---

You have to admit, wales does have nice walking areas?

---

You saw the bit where Sioni Sais pointed out that most Welsh people live in towns or cities, didn't you?

Besides - speaking as someone who was brought up in the English Lake District - the fact that these 'nice walking areas' are on your doorstep does not necessarily mean that you are going to spend all your spare time going for Nice Healthy Walks, for the following reasons:

1. You may not have any spare time for long country walks, because you're too busy working/looking after your family/trying to find a job.
2. These lovely scenic areas may not be particularly close to where you live. I have friends brought up in the south of England who know the area around Windermere better than I do; they had holidays there, I was brought up in the Workington/Whitehaven area and Windermere was too far for an easy day trip and not far enough away to justify going there on holiday. Mid-Wales is beautiful, but it's a long way away from the most populated areas.
3. This may come as a shock to you, but some people don't like going for walks in the countryside. They might prefer going to a gym or a dance class or a swimming pool, but as Sioni pointed out there may be practical reasons why they can't. Outside big cities like London and Manchester public transport is patchy and unreliable, and cars are expensive.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
It's partly an educational thing and partly a poverty/socio-economic thing.

A survey in Glasgow found that people in Easterhouse and other poorer areas actually had higher food bills than people in the city's posh West End.

Why? Because they only had convenience stores selling high-priced goods and not the choice and range found in the larger supermarkets nor the specialist foody shops in the more well-to-do areas.

So not only did they have a worse diet, they were also paying a lot more for it.

A similar survey by Glasgow University more recently found that people from the poorer areas of the city were less likely to take part in the city's popular charity marathons and other fun-runs.

There are socio-demographic reasons for all of this.

You can't just look at Wales and say, 'look, they've got the Gower Peninsula, the Brecon Beacons, the Pembrokeshire Coast Path ... why don't they all go walking around those to keep fit?'

Rambling and hiking and so on are predominantly - but not exclusively - more middle-class activities.

My brother lives in the South Wales Valleys and does a curry delivery round a few nights a week. Not so long ago he did a pizza delivery round on top of his day job. He says that he's now delivering curries to the same people that he used to deliver pizzas to. These people live on different take-aways on different nights of the week. They don't know how to cook for themselves.

It's easy to point the finger and say, 'lazy Welsh chavs, they don't know what's good for them ...' but like it or not, that's the culture we're dealing with in the Valleys.

He took a pizza order to one house to be greeted by the largest and most obese woman he'd ever seen in his life. She'd ordered everything, an immense pizza, chips, side-orders, relish, you name it ...

As he handed over her food order she asked for her Coke. My brother reached into his delivery bag and drew out a bottle for her.

'Diet Coke!' she bellowed. 'I ordered Diet Coke, I en' 'avin' it if it en' Diet Coke ...'


 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
NJA - the possibilities of walking, cycling etc. are bleedin' obvious, even to "Welsh chavs" (c) Gamaliel.

The question that public health bodies need to address is "if these possibilities are so obvious, why do people not take them up?"

IME people raise these "obvious possibilities" not to try to solve the problem, but in order to be able to say "it's their own fault so I don't need to let it concern me in any way".
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

He took a pizza order to one house to be greeted by the largest and most obese woman he'd ever seen in his life. She'd ordered everything, an immense pizza, chips, side-orders, relish, you name it ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

He took a pizza order to one house to be greeted by the largest and most obese woman he'd ever seen in his life. She'd ordered everything, an immense pizza, chips, side-orders, relish, you name it ...

---

Which can't mean she's at all poor - all this would be far more expensive than a piece of fish and healthy veg.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

He took a pizza order to one house to be greeted by the largest and most obese woman he'd ever seen in his life. She'd ordered everything, an immense pizza, chips, side-orders, relish, you name it ...

---

Which can't mean she's at all poor - all this would be far more expensive than a piece of fish and healthy veg.

---

But she wouldn't like a piece of fish and healthy veg. She has become conditioned to like junk food, with it's high salt and sugar levels, high in carbs and fat and low in nutrients. Her one nod at 'health' is a drink containing artificial sugar. Society has become addicted to processed and junk food which provide little nutritional content. And she won't have the traditional working class active lifestyle needed to burn off those carbs, as she might have in the past.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Walking holidays are a bit of a big jump - I'm more interested in where you say "wouldn't walk as far as the local shops". Why is that, do you think?

It's obviously a generation on from my own working class upbringing, which meant regularly walking to the bus stop for the bus into town, then walking the length and breadth of the town visiting several shops because it was known that bananas were 1/2p cheaper a pound at Finefare...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Almost all my family are overweight and I have relatives who are morbidly obese, who wouldn't walk as far as the local shops and live on junk food ... Living here in Cambridge is a complete contrast, there are few obese mothers or kids in the playground.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:



Modern diets don't always teach good eating habits, they often encourage the eating of marketed low fat items which are high in sugars and often heavily processed and they also suggest ways of snacking between meals. It is hardly surprising that people don't maintain weight loss after diets when they haven't learnt good habits. But that wouldn't be profitable for slimming organisations.
Add this to a sedentary lifestyle and it is a recipe for obesity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

If you look at the graphic here, then we have to ask ourselves what the difference is between say the ten leanest European nations (Romania, Switzerland, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, France, Denmark, Bulgaria, Austria) and the most fat one, the UK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
One reason that poor people buy fast food and convenience food is that they do not have well-equipped kitchens where they can prepare food from scratch.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NJA:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
One reason that poor people buy fast food and convenience food is that they do not have well-equipped kitchens where they can prepare food from scratch.

---

Several "pound shops" sell sets of kitchen knives and other equipment, probably incl.
a steamer basket.

I got a pressure cooker from a charity shop, though this isn't the best for preserving vitamins I believe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Seems to me, NJA, that your intention here is the aforementioned "it's their fault, so I don't have to worry about it."

Why do you think people don't go and buy these sets and solve the problem themselves? You must have some ideas? Or do you prefer to assume they're lazy, stupid, or both?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NJA:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Seems to me, NJA, that your intention here is the aforementioned "it's their fault, so I don't have to worry about it."

Why do you think people don't go and buy these sets and solve the problem themselves? You must have some ideas? Or do you prefer to assume they're lazy, stupid, or both?

---

I've already made suggestions, your comments say more about you than me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I am very aware of the class issue in obesity as although I am middle class (due to escaping my background and marrying an academic), my family is very working class. I come from a large family living on the roughest council estate in Luton. Almost all my family are overweight and I have relatives who are morbidly obese, who wouldn't walk as far as the local shops and live on junk food. They would all think the idea of a walking holiday absurd, it just isn't part of the culture. Living here in Cambridge is a complete contrast, there are few obese mothers or kids in the playground.

---

That probably just says a lot more about body image and the pressure to conform to local social norms in upper class areas than it does about the proportion of noticeably fat people.

I do agree that walking holidays aren't for everyone though. I can only stand walking for more than a short time if it's a hike with some element of a physical challenge, the idea of walking along a nice path to admire scenery just doesn't work for me. I am open to the possibility of that changing at some later age, but if I do suddenly start liking the idea of a day spent admiring scenery I hope I'll still be up for cycling so that I can admire more scenery in a day than walking
 

---

Posted by NJA (# 13022) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You've made suggestions about what they "should" do; you've made no attempt to explain why in the main they don't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
That probably just says a lot more about body image and the pressure to conform to local social norms in upper class areas than it does about the proportion of noticeably fat people.

---

No doubt that is part of it but it might also be to due to encouraging cycling here , there is little parking available at school (the school closes the gates to the drive around school drop off for child safety) and about half the school cycles there, and almost all the rest walk. Cambridge is very cycle friendly

[ 17. April 2013, 16:36: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
 

---

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Too much processed food? I agree that highly processed food, high fructose corn syrup, trans fats, are all bad for you but 100 calories of bologna is the same as a hundred calories of chicken breast when it comes to weight gain. Foods high in fat and protein do have a longer satiety rate than carbs and a high carbohydrate diet causes higher insulin but this information applies to the amount of hunger you will feel on your diet, not the actual weight loss which still comes down to calories in/calories out ratio, for the most part.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by NJA

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:






He took a pizza order to one house to be greeted by the largest and most obese woman he'd ever seen in his life. She'd ordered everything, an immense pizza, chips, side-orders, relish, you name it ...

As he handed over her food order she asked for her Coke. My brother reached into his delivery bag and drew out a bottle for her.

'Diet Coke!' she bellowed. 'I ordered Diet Coke, I en' 'avin' it if it en' Diet Coke ...'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Diet Coke and Coke taste different. Once you're used to the taste of Diet Coke, the ordinary stuff tastes wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Diet Coke and Coke taste different. Once you're used to the taste of Diet Coke, the ordinary stuff tastes wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NJA:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You've made suggestions about what they "should" do; you've made no attempt to explain why in the main they don't.

---

Sorry to have to repeat myself everyone:

"I wondered if we have a generation who have lost the habit of using locally produced fruit & veg since convenience foods & microwaves boomed in the 60s-80s. Now the economies of scale are with cheap, factory-produces, chemically-laced stuff that is more profitable for the local shops than local produce."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
They taste like drinking syrup to me, too, and in many cases you actually are pretty much drinking corn syrup with a few flavorings added.

---

Soft drinks in Europe are sweetened with sugar, not corn syrup as in the US. The one time I tried American Coke, I swear I could feel my teeth rotting in my head it was so sweet.
 

---

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Thing is, it's just really a restatement of the problem rather than finding any underlying issues; as you and others have pointed out, none of this forces an unhealthy lifestyle or diet, but in droves people are electing not to the fairly simple things (on the face of it) that they could - walk, cycle, prepare food from real ingredients etc. etc. The question is why do they not do so?

---

quote:

---

If you need energy not refreshment the ordinary stuff is better...

---

If you are using your Coke to wash down a large meal of junk food the question of whether the Coke contains any extra energy is hardly an issue. There are indeed questions over whether aspartame is a healthy subsitute for sugar. The point is that someone who demands Diet Coke with an 'unhealthy' meal may be expressing a taste preference.

And the best thing to drink during exercise (unless you are on a very intense training regime) is plain water.

Oh, and what IngoB said. Although if the price of eternal life is drinking beetroot juice and eating avocados every day, I'd rather eat butter and die.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Beetroot juice tastes excellent with apple juice. It's a common drink here in Poland.
 

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Posted by justlooking (# 12079) on :
 
I can see a link between poverty and being overweight and unhealthy in that sweets and many junk foods are a relatively cheap source of pleasure. Parents who may not be able to afford to take their children on holidays and outings or buy them the toys and gadgets they want can still buy sweets and feel they're being good to their children. The recent spate of TV ads aimed at encouraging healthy lifestyles linked showing love with giving sweets and over-feedng.

The Big Body Squad focuses on specialist services for the morbidly obese and their health problems. The two programmes I've seen make several references to the costs involved but there's no discussion of the questions this raises. Such as, do these services enable and encourage the problems? and what's being done to help these people lose weight. I was struck by what seemed to be a sense of entitlement. If someone eats themselves to a point where they can't get off the bed then it seems they're entitled to whatever it takes to maintain them comfortably in that state, including full-time carers. I expect it isn't so simple.
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
justlooking:

quote:

---

If someone eats themselves to a point where they can't get off the bed then it seems they're entitled to whatever it takes to maintain them comfortably in that state, including full-time carers. I expect it isn't so simple.

---

quote:

---

Beetroot juice tastes excellent with apple juice. It's a common drink here in Poland.

---

quote:

---

"The link between obesity and preventable illnesses, such as diabetes, heart disease and cancer is undeniable. In England almost two-thirds of adults and a third of children are either overweight or obese; without effective action this could rise to nine in ten adults and two-thirds of children by 2050.

"I welcome the 'Healthy Weight, Healthy Lives', toolkit, which will provide Primary Care Trusts and local authorities with detailed support for the best approaches to tackling being overweight and obesity in local areas, and together with the Change4Life national campaign, can help us all live longer, and healthier lives."

---

The Change4Life campaign has now been withdrawn, or at least the TV ads have ended. Nothing much seems to have changed.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
@ Sioni Sais

I don't have facial hair and only carry the axe when the chain saw won't do...

As for us all being short, not true: I come from a family with average female height 5'9" in the generation born before WWII - my tallest cousin is 6'10", etc, etc.

Seriously: the point about exercise is a good one: yes, it does take time and sometimes that time is when you should be preparing a healthy meal. Moreover, on the whole who wants to take their healthy walk or jog in darkness? And believe me, even close to large towns such as Cowbridge the street lighting stops very quickly, as do the pavements: on the whole running on roads in the pitch black with (perhaps) a steep drop to the side or moorland with rocky outcrops and free-ranging livestock can be risky.

Another idea would be to look at the lack of good quality fruit and veg only available to people in the larger centres of population - much of rural Wales is deemed by the large supermarkets as having too small a population to enable them to make a profit, so no shop. For example, a resident of St David's must travel to either Haverfordwest or Fishguard (both 16miles +) to find a large supermarket; that may not seem far but the roads are not good and the bus service starts lateish and finishes early. Trains? don't make me laugh. There is a supermarket in St David's: imagine Lidl then downmarket it by, ooh, 50%...

Once at a supermarket you won't find the same choice or quality as in in more heavily populated areas of the UK.

In mid and north Wales the situation is often worse.

Yes, all excuses but then there are plenty of fatties who live within walking distance of a gym, have a local market and choice of supermarkets, street lights, etc, etc - what do they blame?

Me? Seeing as I'm "down home" for a while I'm off to chop logs for the open fires (no central heating) before we walk to the nearest pub (2 miles cross-country) where we'll have a sandwich and CHIPS before the 2 mile walk home. And its raining...
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Ironically, I think it's improved transport links that are actually the problem.

No, don't laugh, bear with me for a moment.

There are, surely, people in St David's who do want fresh fruit and veg and a good choice, and so on. And they get it? Why? Because they are able to drive to Haverfordwest or Camarthen or wherever it was that the big supermarket is.

If they couldn't, then there'd be a local market in St Davids (not to mention Trefin and Marloes and New Quay and so on and so forth) for such things. There isn't, because the segment of society most inclined to insist on being able to get them can readily get to the larger towns.

I expect that's where the gyms are as well, not that I much hold with them - expensive and as motivating as a mouldy bag of sprouts. But I bet you can't buy a bike or a tennis racquet in St David's either

Just a thought. I often dream of moving somewhere miles from bloody anywhere (and therefore miles from other people - yes, I'm a miserable bastard) but the thought of the shopping trips is off-putting. Not to mention a source of income of course - did I mention that I also suspect the jobs are all in Haverfordwest. If you're lucky. Or Cardiff, if you're a bit lucky, or London more bloody likely.

Speaking of gyms, I maintain that one of the silliest things I see on a regular basis is a car park full of 4x4s whilst the owners of them peddle pretend bikes in the gym. The cheaper obvious option seems to not be so obvious.

[ 18. April 2013, 12:39: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fletcher christian:
but this thread has enlightened me about the Welsh people: short, stocky, overweight, short legs, live among hills and mountains.....do they all have facial hair and carry axes too?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There are, surely, people in St David's who do want fresh fruit and veg and a good choice, and so on. And they get it? Why? Because they are able to drive to Haverfordwest or Camarthen or wherever it was that the big supermarket is.

If they couldn't, then there'd be a local market in St Davids (not to mention Trefin and Marloes and New Quay and so on and so forth) for such things. There isn't, because the segment of society most inclined to insist on being able to get them can readily get to the larger towns.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There are, surely, people in St David's who do want fresh fruit and veg and a good choice, and so on. And they get it? Why? Because they are able to drive to Haverfordwest or Camarthen or wherever it was that the big supermarket is.

If they couldn't, then there'd be a local market in St Davids (not to mention Trefin and Marloes and New Quay and so on and so forth) for such things. There isn't, because the segment of society most inclined to insist on being able to get them can readily get to the larger towns.

---

It doesn't always work that way. Large chains can buy things inexpensively in very large quantities and sell them for less. However, if they have stores in remote locations, there are additional warehouse and transportation costs that the chain may not want to incur.

Every time someone takes a poll asking what new stores people would like to see here in Blacksburg, the first answer is Trader Joe's. Unfortunately, it's not going to happen because Trader Joe's has a policy of not establishing any new store that is more than forty miles from an existing store. I presume this is for reasons of warehousing and transportation.

I don't see a solution to this problem.

Moo

---

May be so in the US, but in the UK we're generally talking distances of a lot less than that.

Case in point - St David's. Nearest Tesco is Haverfordwest, which is 16 miles away. Nevertheless, public transport ( ) is such that that is pretty much the other side of the world to someone without a car.

Mind, I'm not quite sure why we're talking about St David's; it's hardly a deprived community and I bet car ownership is near 100%. Wouldn't this be more a sort of problem for Ebbw Vale and the Rhondda?
 

---

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Karl:

quote:

---

Speaking of gyms, I maintain that one of the silliest things I see on a regular basis is a car park full of 4x4s whilst the owners of them peddle pretend bikes in the gym. The cheaper obvious option seems to not be so obvious.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Karl:

quote:

---

Speaking of gyms, I maintain that one of the silliest things I see on a regular basis is a car park full of 4x4s whilst the owners of them peddle pretend bikes in the gym. The cheaper obvious option seems to not be so obvious.

---

Speaking as someone with a gym membership (though I do not have a 4x4, and do own a bike) I stay fit by working out at the gym mainly because the 'cheaper obvious option' is much more time-consuming; to achieve the same level of fitness by walking, running or cycling would take about twice as long and I don't have that much spare time.

---

Doesn't that rather depend on how hard you cycle?

Seriously, though, I suppose it depends on the person. Personally I realised that I was mardy the whole day when I knew I was going to the gym and loathed every moment of it and realised that the "I've paid for this membership" thing made as much sense as sitting in a deckchair in the pissing rain on the grounds that I've paid for an hour and I'll damned well have it.



[ 18. April 2013, 14:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Maybe. In return, I find the whole concept of 'cycling for pleasure' or 'cycling to keep fit' incomprehensible. I watch the roadies whizzing along in their (often ill-advised) Lycra and goggles and can't understand why anyone would choose to do it, so we shall just have to agree to differ about the best way of keeping fit. Cycling is simply a means of getting from A to B without burning any petrol, as far as I'm concerned.

And I have no idea how the British cycling team trains, but I'd be surprised if their training consisted entirely of cycling. Most serious athletes do other exercises besides their 'primary' specialism.
 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
NJA, on diet vs. ordinary Coke:

quote:

---

If you need energy not refreshment the ordinary stuff is better...

---

If you are using your Coke to wash down a large meal of junk food the question of whether the Coke contains any extra energy is hardly an issue. There are indeed questions over whether aspartame is a healthy subsitute for sugar. The point is that someone who demands Diet Coke with an 'unhealthy' meal may be expressing a taste preference.

And the best thing to drink during exercise (unless you are on a very intense training regime) is plain water.

Oh, and what IngoB said. Although if the price of eternal life is drinking beetroot juice and eating avocados every day, I'd rather eat butter and die.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Maybe. In return, I find the whole concept of 'cycling for pleasure' or 'cycling to keep fit' incomprehensible. I watch the roadies whizzing along in their (often ill-advised) Lycra and goggles and can't understand why anyone would choose to do it, so we shall just have to agree to differ about the best way of keeping fit. Cycling is simply a means of getting from A to B without burning any petrol, as far as I'm concerned.

And I have no idea how the British cycling team trains, but I'd be surprised if their training consisted entirely of cycling. Most serious athletes do other exercises besides their 'primary' specialism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Fair enough, but for me cycling is a bit like using the gym exercise bikes except with scenery, variation and no awful gym music.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Fair enough, but for me cycling is a bit like using the gym exercise bikes except with scenery, variation and no awful gym music.

---

Some people like the music they play in those places. And as for scenery and variation - if you're in the middle of a city and it's pissing it down neither of them sounds particularly attractive. Factor in the odd car/lorry/bus trying to smear you over the tarmac like so much jam and it's easy to see why the safe, warm, dry gym is so popular.

---

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: Some people like the music they play in those places.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: Some people like the music they play in those places.

---

What kind of music do they play at the gym? (I really don't know.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: Some people like the music they play in those places.

---

What kind of music do they play at the gym? (I really don't know.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by NJA:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You've made suggestions about what they "should" do; you've made no attempt to explain why in the main they don't.

---

Sorry to have to repeat myself everyone:

"I wondered if we have a generation who have lost the habit of using locally produced fruit & veg since convenience foods & microwaves boomed in the 60s-80s. Now the economies of scale are with cheap, factory-produces, chemically-laced stuff that is more profitable for the local shops than local produce."

---

quote:

---

posted by Karl
Mind, I'm not quite sure why we're talking about St David's; it's hardly a deprived community and I bet car ownership is near 100%. Wouldn't this be more a sort of problem for Ebbw Vale and the Rhondda?

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quote:

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posted by Boogie
anne - Aldi sell fresh, good quality vegetables, cheaper than anywhere I know.

There are plenty of reasons poor people may not use them - price and availability don't come into it if you can get to Aldi.

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quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:
"dreadfully tatty - all covered in mud"

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Did it look like it had come from a field?
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:

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posted by Karl
Mind, I'm not quite sure why we're talking about St David's; it's hardly a deprived community and I bet car ownership is near 100%. Wouldn't this be more a sort of problem for Ebbw Vale and the Rhondda?

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C'mon, I know you're English but ...

Ever been west of Cardiff? I thought not.

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quote:

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posted by seasick
Did it look like it had come from a field?

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• school meals must be made free for all and to be eaten by all unless there is a genuine and serious medical/dietary reason for it not to be.
• free ante-natal classes in cooking - money-off vouchers available if all attended
• health-visitors shouldn't assume new mothers know how to wean their infant but should be trained to give practical advice
• re-introduce the school medical so that every child is weighed and measured at start of school career

Question: why is it that in the English speaking world we consider children can't eat as their parents but have invented the concept of a "children's menu". Odd.
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
@ Karl

I seem to be doing it again...

Ymddiheuriadau, Fi jyst yn cael ychydig yn bwydo-i fyny gyda rhieni gwlyb!.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I don't know about all that, l'Organist - we did exactly the same but our children are still very discerning - or what people lucky enough to find nearly all foods palatable call "picky". (Can you guess that I'm not in that category and after 45 years have really got fed up with being accused of "pickiness" because I involuntarily find the taste and smell of a significant number of foods quite disgusting). So I'd be agin' making school dinners effectively compulsory - I could no more eat fish or drink milk, now, or then, than I could neck turds and wash them down with the contents of the aquarium filter. Eating and being fed "real food" from day 1 is no panacea, alas.

However, I do like both sprouts and turnips.

But that aside...

The free cooking classes are a good idea, but why make them ante-natal? I'd suggest they'd be useful to everyone.

I think good health visitors already do as you describe, and certainly our kids are weighed and measured at school.

(Dw i'n meddwl y ffeindiwch chi na yr llong 'ma ddim hoffi ieithoedd eraill heb cyfieithiad Saesneg / I think you'll find that this Ship doesn't like other languages without English translation.

Actually, if we don't knock it on the head now we'll probably get into trouble. I only broke open my poor learners' Welsh to make the point that I've been West of Cardiff )
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
I think people are born with individual preferences. Obviously, a child who is exposed to a very small variety of foods will be reluctant to try anything different, but as Karl said, individual tastes differ.

I enjoy food with texture--nuts in my ice cream, etc. Some people don't like texture. I recently realized that my liking for texture is not limited to food. I like texture in fabrics and wall coverings. I seem to have been born this way.

I strongly disagree with the idea of making school children eat everything they are given. Some of them will do what I did as a child when I was required to eat liver. I cut it into tiny pieces and swallowed it whole. As an adult, I have tried many times to eat it, and I always gag. I'm sure that comes from the memory of swallowing it whole.

I think you should offer children only wholesome food, and let them take it or leave it.

Moo
 

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 

quote:

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posted by moo
I think you should offer children only wholesome food, and let them take it or leave it.

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Agreed, but then maybe my children are unique in having mothers who, if the child doesn't eat what is put in front of them, go into a complete tizz offering endless alternatives: result is children who expect to have endless a la carte service when in another child's home.

And try being accused because you didn't offer their little darling an endless supply of snacks until the next meal...

But we're not perfect - had a sibling who would only eat the egg shell, not the inside...

And anyone else fancy another sibling's favourite of toast spread with raspberry jam topped with sardines? Nor me

@ Karl - OK. I'll abandon the language of heaven - but your Welsh is very good.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
It makes me gag too, Moo and I just ate tiny portions, chewing until I cried. It's because liver is nasty.

My brothers and I were raised on home grown vegetables, fresh food, almost everything including bread, soup, and desserts, cooked from scratch, no deep fried food and great variety. Today we all like pretty much everything, except liver.

These days we all three struggle with out weight even though we've kept to what's considered healthy eating with lots of fresh fruit and veg, and lean protein. OTOH, our parents stayed thin and healthy until old age. We kids all three exercise regularly while our parents didn't exercise at all and drove the car everywhere they went.

It's an evolutionary change I tells ya'. Either that or the corn syrup in our baby formula made us grow more fat cells. Or dieting! I honestly think that may be the reason. More and more people are going on diets at a younger age while their brains are still growing. This can mess up the signaling system that tells your brain when you're hungry. I think my switch is stuck on starving, just like a horse I knew that had been starved in his youth and would always eat himself sick if not watched.

{While we're on the subject, I weighed myself this morning for the first time in 11 months. I've lost 58 lbs! I am, at this moment in time, almost perfect. I also just made a Graham Cracker pie and will start on the re-gain tonight.]
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 


It's less good when I can't check a dictionary when I'm stuck for vocab

We steer a line between serving up stuff we know is liked (we class it as liked if two out of the three of them like it) and serving up stuff that we think they should like.

I've never understood what's so bad about liver. But it's useful, as are sprouts - when people accuse me of being picky, I point out that the "delicious" food they're insisting that I must like really is unto me as would be liver and sprouts to them - at best. Personally that combination just needs some onions, garlic and potato wedges.

Free - as opposed to compulsory - school dinners for everyone might have a couple of possible beneficial effects:

(1) Free school meals loses its stigma
(2) People who don't qualify but would certainly benefit from them might avail themselves of the facility.

At the moment, I understand that some people who qualify don't actually claim them, and that may in part be down to the stigma.

But I think the basal reason for obesity might be simply that we've evolved in a calorie-scarce environment and therefore there's no particular need for our feedback system to tell us when we've eaten enough - indeed, it being a bit liberal was probably beneficial in allowing us to prepare for possible lean times ahead.

Even for the poor, calories are readily available. Indeed, for reasons that have been given, they may be over-available compared with bulkier food items that contain fewer.

"Eat less, mostly plants" - the first part we're not evolutionarily conditioned for - the second we may be socially divorced from.
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

But I think the basal reason for obesity might be simply that we've evolved in a calorie-scarce environment and therefore there's no particular need for our feedback system to tell us when we've eaten enough - indeed, it being a bit liberal was probably beneficial in allowing us to prepare for possible lean times ahead.

Even for the poor, calories are readily available. Indeed, for reasons that have been given, they may be over-available compared with bulkier food items that contain fewer.

"Eat less, mostly plants" - the first part we're not evolutionarily conditioned for - the second we may be socially divorced from.

---

I think you are on to something there. It used to take a lot of effort to get those calories, now the are easily available in huge quantities and with endless choice.

Oh and I'll join you for some delicately cooked liver and brussels with onions, garlic and potato wedges
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Can I put forward the excuse that for generations there has been the exhortation to "clear your plate". My parents had gone through wartime rationing and things were hard for my mum through the thirties, so come the 1950's and onwards, it was a hard habit to break. I was often told there wouldn't be any pudding if I didn't eat all my dinner.

The 'Welsh Mams' that L'organist mentions certainly operate on this basis. I'm sure many still expect men to need 6,000 calories per day to hew coal from the bowels of the earth.
 

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Posted by NJA (# 13022) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Is that really such a big mystery? These "simple things" tend to take time, effort and discipline, and they do so now...

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
The idea that this can be tackled by "more information" is largely naive. What tends to help practically is habit formation. So the social engineering issue is how to establish healthy habits in the population...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

Others' health and what they eat is between them and their doctor, and nobody else's business. Certainly not to be turned into freak show television.

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quote:

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Surely it would be far cheaper to provide counselling, psychological help, advice and support for people in this position BEFORE they start off their list of consequential health problems and demanding gastric bands or whatever other £10-20,000 operations they can be led to believe they need “because there are no other options”. Telling somebody with Binge Eating Disorder to up their exercise and “eat more healthily” is like telling an Anorexic to rest up and “have a burger” – it just doesn’t work.

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I'm not sure I go along with the idea that everyone who is overweight with consequent health problems has a psychological disorder. Since this now affects the majority of adults and is being passed on to children it may simply be a matter of habit for most of us. We've just got used to eating too much.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
My niece had to leave her job as paramedic due to having lifted too many fat people and permanently injuring her back. Fat is not a personal issue - it affects everyone who deals with you.

I don't say any of this from a judgmental standpoint - I have always struggled with my weight and sugar addiction. But I think that makes me even more frustrated with those who don't make any effort to fight it.
 

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Well speaking as a fat person ...

The big problem is a convenience. If I go to a drive through Macdonalds, it is usually because I have finished work late, then driven for an hour to gett back to my home town and I am tired and hungry. If I could drive through a restaurant that offered tasty healthy food I'd buy it. But there isn't one. MaccyD's salads are fairly horrible so I rarely have them. The same is true of ordering take out - its next to impossible to order a decent meal, on the rare occasions I have ordered a salad with some sort of protein included it been big enough to feed four and soaked in dressing.

Cooking from scratch is mildly off putting usually because of the length of time it takes to prepare. It is possible to cook fresh veg and potatoes and meat in a microwave - but I am buggered if I can find decent recipe books for doing this. In particular what you need is a recipe that tells you the sequence to put the food in. So you can get a dish and put a jacket potatoe, then take it after 3 minutes and add a chopp, take it out after another 3 minutes and add frozen peas and take it out again after 3 minutes. But it is very difficult to get the timings right when you have to guess.

My usual lunch tends to be bought sandwich, crisps and a canned drink or flavoured milk. Why ? Firstly because the hospital canteen is appalling and you have to preorder if you want meat and salad (which is difficult to do if you don't predictable lunch break). Secondly, because there isn't an obvious convenient alternative to a sandwich, especially if you want to reduce your carb intake.

Most solutions involve me being organised enough to get up earlier than the last minute and prepare food before I go to work. This is not going to happen.

When I was seriously dieting a year ago, I tried for ages to find convenient alternatives - especially stuff you could just pick up and eat. Best bet seemed to be nuts and cold sliced meat - however, that will be processed salted meat.

Exercisewise, schools obsess about sport and don't actually help you develop any kind of solo daily exercise routine - and find something that suits you. Again time is the biggest issue. I managed to get up at 6:15am three times a week for a bootcamp for about six months but I couldn't sustain it. Driving to things is largely about time.

Then there is genetics, some people are exercise responders (in terms a of body shape) some people are not. On the basis of experience, I know I am an exercise responder - of I have regular training my body shape changes quite radically - but that doesn't happen for everyone.

Also I strongly second Twilight on the confusing advice (especially around fruit.)

ETA The other thing that is infuriating is inaccurate information. So the expectation that you can lose 2lb a month for 6 months is false. In fact your metabolism adjusts, and weight loss slows after the first couple of months. But no bugger warns you about this, so then you think the diet isn't working and are more likely to give up.

Then there is the bollocks about having to drink 2 litres of fluid a day. This is rubbish based on a misinterpretation of an old study. In fact you need the *equivalent* of two litres of fluid from you the combination of what you eat and drink (dependent on temperature etc).

Tea and coffee are not 'dehydrating' they are diuretics - they still count towards how much you drink you just pee slightly more.

[ 20. April 2013, 10:34: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
For me, a lot of it is being organised and thinking in advance. When we were first married and very poor, we got into the habit of making menus for the whole week, meaning we only bought exactly what we needed and had already worked out what to do with leftovers. The habit has stayed with us, so we make menu lists every week and buy food accordingly.

Also, very often, I will prepare food in the morning before going to work (it's usually me because my time in the morning is more flexible than Macarius') - soup, say, or mince and onions, so in the evening, it just needs a light put under it.

It means we are less likely to get a take away.

M.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Slow cookers are fabulous - all can be prepared in advance and thrown into the crockpot in the morning. A delicious, healthy meal is ready whatever time you return home.



[ 20. April 2013, 12:04: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
[Checking in, 3 lbs up from yesterday -- it was a magical night]

Boogie

quote:

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My niece had to leave her job as paramedic due to having lifted too many fat people and permanently injuring her back. Fat is not a personal issue - it affects everyone who deals with you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:

Boogie

quote:

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My niece had to leave her job as paramedic due to having lifted too many fat people and permanently injuring her back. Fat is not a personal issue - it affects everyone who deals with you.

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Well I'm sorry. Just like I was sorry for the x-ray tech who had to lift me when my leg was broken in two places, all the ligaments torn and the knee displaced. In the midst of my pain I had to hear her say I was the heaviest thing she ever had to lift. I guess she never had to x-ray any men. My husband out weighs me by an even 100 lbs.

If this is why fat is not a personal issue, then motorcycle riding, contact sports, lawn mowers and Karl's penchant for bicycling in traffic aren't personal issues either.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
For me, a lot of it is being organised and thinking in advance. When we were first married and very poor, we got into the habit of making menus for the whole week, meaning we only bought exactly what we needed and had already worked out what to do with leftovers. The habit has stayed with us, so we make menu lists every week and buy food accordingly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by NJA:
Some suggestions:

Lunch: I just warmed some potato from the load I did in the pressure cooker, melted buttery stuff & a bit of sea salt, added to some salad with balsamic vinegar & opened a large can of pilchards in rich tomato sauce. (Last 3 items from the 98p shop).

Cost of meal: about £1
Time taken to prepare: under 3 mins, i.e. less than the time taken to visit a take-away place.
Healthy: yes!
Taste: very nice!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Apart from a lack of exercise, probably the next biggest things that contributes to being overweight is constant snacking... Three meals a day are ideal, with the size of the meal being progressively smaller as the day goes on that you have the breakfast of a king and the supper of a pauper. It's all rather simple. I don't know why it's been forgotten.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
It's a wonder any thin people ever died.

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Do I detect sarcasm there? Of course thin people die, At some point we're all brown bread and I don't think anyone would suggest that being thin equals healthy per se. I also think we should be able to enjoys things, including food, but we also know that over eating, over drinking etc. is bad for us. It's a cliché but I think there is much truth in all things in moderation.
 

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Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Apart from a lack of exercise, probably the next biggest things that contributes to being overweight is constant snacking... Three meals a day are ideal, with the size of the meal being progressively smaller as the day goes on that you have the breakfast of a king and the supper of a pauper. It's all rather simple. I don't know why it's been forgotten.

---

I could blame the fridge and freezer. There is just too much food in the house and it's too easy to put something in the micro/oven rather than grabbing a piece of fruit.

I could blame the fridge & freezer, but it's probably me.

---

• chop/finelyslice 1 stick celery, 1 medium size carrot, half a pepper, 3/4 mushrooms:
• taken in that order, cook over high-ish heat in smidgeon of oil till just cooked
• add handful of frozen peas/baby broad beans plus seasoning (garlic, ground corriander, Chinese 5 spice) stirring until veg defrosted (c 1 minute)
• add tablespoon soy sauce and 2 handsful of beansprouts - keep stirring for further 2 minutes
• at this point you can add handful of leftover shredded chicken or whatever
• cook 1 further minute
• READY!

If you are very hungry you can either add a handful of straight to pan fine noodles with the beansprouts or serve with rice (plain or egg-fried).

And the fruitbowl should be the place of first resort if you get peckish.

No, I'm not whippet thin (love affair with dark chocolate still ongoing) and nor do I stick to the above all the time (second love of a hot bacon and egg sandwich) BUT if you manage it for roughly half the time you'll keep weight under reasonable control and, if you don't enjoy cooking, won't be tied to the stove.

But I'm Welsh so I still eat chips - with mayonnaise, of course!

 

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Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 
Oh God. Why do these threads always degenerate into recipes, claims of non-available cross-pond grocery bargains ("I can get a hundred pounds of lentils for a dollar!"), and insufficiently-veiled personal superiority?

People eat crap foods because it's efficient, convenient, and tastes pretty good. People eat crap foods because they like sugar, salt, and fat. People eat crap foods because cooking varied, healthy meals for self/family takes ever-scarcer time, planning, knowledge and effort... for people who would on the whole rather be eating crap foods anyway.

An intervention of the following magnitude might help: a free personal chef, preparing varied, healthy, tasty meals at a set time each day. Perhaps on a stepdown program, where on their non-cooking days they leave a bag of fresh groceries and an easy recipe. That might eventually become habit-forming.

Short of that, I don't hold out much hope for change.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I'm far from perfect, but can I suggest one very useful option for cooking fairly healthily: stir fries.

As a lousy cook, they're my constant choice for dinner. No recipe required. Take meat of choice (unless vegetarian), vegetables of choice, a bit of sauce of choice (such as soy, sweet chilli, oyster or hoi sin), herbs/spices of choice.

I mix and match things constantly. I have over time come up with some preferred combinations, but the point is there's no strict 'recipe' to follow.

All I need is a wok and, if I have rice, a microwave rice cooker (if I have noodles than they can go into the wok).

It's quite healthy, it's simple and importantly it's QUICK. The only preparation required is chopping vegetables, and cutting up the meat if it isn't already in strips (which it usually is).
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
This time of year, if you look carefully around the edges of the seasonal specials section, you can find Reese Peanut Butter Eggs, left over from Easter, on sale for half price.
 

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Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
I am sorry I have not been able to read all the posts, but I want to interject my experience as a shrinking person. I say shrinking because I am in the process of losing weight. At my highest, I weighed 338 lbs (24st 2lb or 153kg). I have now lost 25 lbs with my goal of reaching 250 lbs (18st or 113 kg).

I have to say getting to the weight I was at took 63 years of trying, so it will be challenge to get down to a more healthier weight.

At 338 lbs a number of things were happening. I had high blood pressure that was not being controlled well with medicine, I was borderline diabetic and I was finding every so often my legs would collapse from under me.

I was eating a lot of sugar and starches. I would have a glass of milk in the morning. Often times I would get three maple bars or at least a McSausage. At noon I would eat a 1/3 lb mushroom cheeseburger with medium fries and a Coke. Around two I would get a latte and three chocolate chip,
Dinner would be largely fried food, mashed potatoes (I love mashed potatoes) with a beer. Then before retiring I would have ice cream or popcorn or gorge on chips.

It actually takes a lot of work and it is very expensive to keep at that weight. It was not fun.

I could go through a gallon of milk in two days.

I finally went to a bariatric clinic and started on a low sugar/low carb diet.

First thing that went out was drink containing sugar. Soda, okay. Latte a little harder, beer was tough (not really). Also, no milk or milk products.

Then we cut out all starches. Initially the doctor just wanted me to have one no starch meal, but wife said if I was going to do it, I was going to do it all the way.

I am essentially eating all vegetables and three portions of meat daily now.

Since I have dropped the weight, I have noticed a number of benefits. Blood pressure is going down. Blood sugars are normal. My knees do not want to collapse on me. I can even climb a flight of stairs without getting winded.

Some things I have learned: Obesity is not a choice. I would say it is like a disease. Craving for sugar or something that converts to sugar is a neurological disorder. If your diet is high in sugars, your brain will automatically wire itself to expect those sugars even more. While I can't think of anyone dying from Obesity, it is the cause of a number of other diseases.

It is a public health issue. Costs of treating diseases caused by obesity are increasing. Some people are saying that my generation will not live as long as the previous generation, and if we do not gain control of it, the next generation will be even less. I live in a university town. I am saddened by how many very large young adults I see waddling to through campus.

It also affects other people in other ways. I would feel guilty knowing I had more than enough to eat while there are other people who are going without. And it is not just a third world phenomenon. 30% of Americans are going hungry every night.

Other benefits I have noticed since I have gotten on this diet: I am trying more foods that I probably never would have eaten. I find vegetables taste much better. We are avoiding processed foods (sugar) and are buying more organic foods as well.

Our food expense is at least a third less. A quart of milk will now last four days. Processed foods are not as cheap as they seem. Fruit is a lot cheaper than ice cream.

One last thing: my doctor is telling me to avoid artificial sweeteners as much possible. She says the brain cannot tell the difference between any type of sweetener so they trigger even more cravings. Consequently, Diet Coke becomes as self defeating as regular Coke.

Doctor does not want me to weigh myself but once a month when we do an in body scan (this measures body weight, muscle fat and other fats). But I do step on a professional scale once a week. Sunday is the day I do it. Looking forward to seeing tomorrow's reading.

[ 21. April 2013, 02:29: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Gramps49

I find the same with artificial sweetening - it increases my sugar addiction.

I'm trying the 5:2 diet at the moment - but find it hard not to binge on the '5'days. The '2' days are surprisingly easy.

Wouldn't it be great if we could just give up food - like giving up smoking! (Just kidding)


 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Gramps49

I find the same with artificial sweetening - it increases my sugar addiction.

I'm trying the 5:2 diet at the moment - but find it hard not to binge on the '5'days. The '2' days are surprisingly easy.

Wouldn't it be great if we could just give up food - like giving up smoking! (Just kidding)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
This time of year, if you look carefully around the edges of the seasonal specials section, you can find Reese Peanut Butter Eggs, left over from Easter, on sale for half price.

---

Twilight, I fucking love this post.
 

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Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't say any of this from a judgmental standpoint - I have always struggled with my weight and sugar addiction. But I think that makes me even more frustrated with those who don't make any effort to fight it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sebby:
As my father (medic) used to say 'simply eat less and walk more'. It's not rocket salad.

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quote:

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Originally posted by NJA:
I was watching the above (8pm, Channel 5 Tuesdays) and it mentioned that 57% of Welsh adults are overweight or obese. Can anyone explain why this province has this problem? .

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