Ship of Fools: Christianity is basically about . . .

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Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

A FB status:

quote:

She: Christianity is basically about being a good person, isn't it?

Me: No.

She: Oh.

So what's wrong with this view? What's right with it?

Seems to me you could argue it's too concerned with a works based salvation. Yet it's quite easy to argue it the other way - theosis, abundant life, true humanity in faith and in Christ etc.

What do you think Christianity is basically about?*

(*please try keep it to a one liner, preferably in contemporary, simple language - you know - for us normal people)

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

"You're all ratbags, but you're forgiven anyway, so go and act in the same generous way to everyone else.

PS - I'll be back to check you're not using this as an excuse to be a complete bastard."

[ 11. June 2013, 13:20: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Christianity is basically about being a follower of Jesus Christ and this is evidenced by a life which is characterised by the things which he taught and modeled.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

Christianity is basically about Jesus.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
What do you think Christianity is basically about?*

The belief that Jesus Christ was unique among people, in terms of his relation to the divine.

I tried to write that to make it as theologically inclusive as possible, while still maintaining the historical singularity of Jesus.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Christianity is basically about being a follower of Jesus Christ and this is evidenced by a life which is characterised by the things which he taught and modeled.

Sounds like a description of being a "good person" to me. Could you be so described if you didn't follow Jesus Christ "through whom all things were made"?

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Yes. Its the claim that Jesus is somehow God that is distinctive abotu Christianity.

If you were to drop that then what would be left would be a Jewish sect that doesn;t require gentile converts to keep kosher. (Which is probably more or less what most Christians were in the first few decades anyway) Or maybe an ulta-liberal version of Islam without the Arabic cultural baggage.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Yes. Its the claim that Jesus is somehow God that is distinctive abotu Christianity.

If you were to drop that then what would be left would be a Jewish sect that doesn;t require gentile converts to keep kosher. (Which is probably more or less what most Christians were in the first few decades anyway) Or maybe an ulta-liberal version of Islam without the Arabic cultural baggage.

Maybe the former, a Jewish sect, but not a version of Islam since Muhammad was a complete asshole.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Making disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

quote:
originally posted by Hairy biker:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Christianity is basically about being a follower of Jesus Christ and this is evidenced by a life which is characterised by the things which he taught and modeled.
Sounds like a description of being a "good person" to me. Could you be so described if you didn't follow Jesus Christ "through whom all things were made"?

Ah the perils of trying to be really succinct... the who Jesus is (divinity and humanity, and events of Easter)was meant to be contained within what he taught and modeled bit.
Hey ho!

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

If Christianity is not about becoming a better person, then how is it not a vanity cult?

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

I like to think Christianity is to some extent about topsy-turviness: up-ending our expectations of the divine and the world around us. The incarnation of the God "without parts or passions," the coming of the king in a cave, the lifting up of the body to heaven, and heaven descending to our bodies. But I would be suspicious of any formulation beginning with the title of the OP.

In a seminary tutorial, we covered a bit about the "theological worlds," which breaks down proposed answers to this question into 5 general archetypes. This pdf is similar to what we worked with. I found it a useful paradigm to think about - as long, like any model, as you don't take it too dogmatically.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Christianity is not about becoming a better person, then how is it not a vanity cult?

Well, quite. I suspect it's "basically" that's the snag. Central to Christianity, I think in most flavours (to different degrees, I'm sure) is the theosis that comes from closer conformity to the Perfect Human Being. ("Follow thee more nearly" and all that). Certainly Himself seems to suggest that if the message doesn't impact your treatment of your fellows, you've missed the plot.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

It seems to me that any attempt to define Christianity which is not predicated solely on the person and work of Christ we end up saying more about ourselves that we do about the phenomenon which we call Christianity.

I'd say that Christianity isn't defined by how we follow Jesus, Christianity is defined by how Jesus makes us his followers.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Making disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.

That's the mission of Christ, but it's not the definition of Christianity. Mission exists because worship doesn't, which suggests to me that worship is ultimate.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
It seems to me that any attempt to define Christianity which is not predicated solely on the person and work of Christ we end up saying more about ourselves that we do about the phenomenon which we call Christianity.

I think that's the case in any event. Christianity seems mostly about assuming divine approval for your own personal prejudices.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I think it's a daft question. Christianity is not basically about one thing, but lots of things.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Making disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.
That's the mission of Christ, but it's not the definition of Christianity. Mission exists because worship doesn't, which suggests to me that worship is ultimate.

Which would make it a vanity cult.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

Daronmedway, can I remind you of the original question:
"What do you think Christianity is basically about?"
Don't you think it's about making disciples of all the nations?

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

I can't remember who said it, but Christ did not come to make bad men good but to make dead men live.

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

The salvation of souls.

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I can't remember who said it, but Christ did not come to make bad men good but to make dead men live.

Leonard Ravenhill

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

For me Christianity is about breaking the mold, God coming to us in Christ and our relating to others through Christ.

It is a perversion of Christianity to think God blesses our prejudices, rather Christianity challenges our prejudices--anytime we try to draw a line between us and another, we will find Christ on the other side of the line.

Many years ago, when Transactional Analysis was the fad, there was a book that was a take off on the I'm OK, You're OK book. That book was You're Not OK, But (with God) That's OK

Still makes sense today.

Posted by W Hyatt (# 14250) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Seems to me you could argue it's too concerned with a works based salvation.

Love God and love your neighbor, forgive, and sin no more - how can it not be about being a good person? It's not a definition and it's not even distinctive, but it's a theme throughout the Gospels. It's only concerned with a works-based salvation if you are asking "What's in it for me?"

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

Christianity is basically about...

God's ministry, love and grace to us through His Son Jesus.

It is not about us, it is about God. Christianity is the growing recognition of that and of the consequences of that.

Christianity is not about what we do, think, or become:- It is not about being good, knowing God, loving others, living life to the fullest, living for ever...etc. These are only side effects caused from being recipients of God's love.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Daronmedway, can I remind you of the original question:
"What do you think Christianity is basically about?"
Don't you think it's about making disciples of all the nations?

Disciples of who though? My point is this, if the who isn't clear and primary the what will be fuzzy and ill defined.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
It is not about us, it is about God.

I guess we can shutter all the churches and everyone can just sleep in on Sundays then?

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Daronmedway, can I remind you of the original question:
"What do you think Christianity is basically about?"
Don't you think it's about making disciples of all the nations?

Also, if this is the essence of what Christianity is about then Christianity won't be about anything in the New Creation. What I'm saying is that Christianity's ultimate meaning must be Jesus in his eternal union with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

[ 11. June 2013, 16:25: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
It is not about us, it is about God.
I guess we can shutter all the churches and everyone can just sleep in on Sundays then?

Surely that Isn't the attitude you take to selflessness in your other relationships?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Daronmedway, can I remind you of the original question:
"What do you think Christianity is basically about?"
Don't you think it's about making disciples of all the nations?
Disciples of who though?

Human beings?

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
It is not about us, it is about God.
I guess we can shutter all the churches and everyone can just sleep in on Sundays then?
Surely that Isn't the attitude you take to selflessness in your other relationships?

Well, it's my usual attitude about things that have nothing to do with me. If we accept Hawk's assertion that "Christianity is not about what we do, think, or become", then the actions of individual adherents are pointless.

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

I would say that Christianity is basically about following Christ (Messiah-believed to be Jesus of Nazareth). That means lots of things.

Then I look at what goes on in and around the church then I see that can be wrong.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Daronmedway, can I remind you of the original question:
"What do you think Christianity is basically about?"
Don't you think it's about making disciples of all the nations?
Disciples of who though?
Human beings?

I think our wires are crossed. Let me rephrase. For whom are we making disciples?

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Christianity is about making all whole.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
"You're all ratbags, but you're forgiven anyway, so go and act in the same generous way to everyone else.

... yes but with the addition of...

"or at least try for Christ's sake!"

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

Christianity is about the reconciliation of all things to God through Jesus Christ (paraphrasing II Cor. 5:19 a bit).

For what this means in terms of a system of doctrines, see the Apostles' or Nicene Creed.

In terms of how we live our lives, this works itself out as loving God and loving our neighbor.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

@OP

Currently, fighting a rear guard action against secularism, scientism, and consumerism. All of which also purport to give meaning to life.

It is also a business and money, and how to distribute the authority that money can buy.

It is about the advancement of agendas Christians have for other people, and often in its expression, rather deaf.

On a personal level, it is about a search for meaning for me. Though I think for many it is finding of meaning, and once Christian the search is over. I'm not good enough at Christianity to have that work for me. Nor have I found that that it has made my life any easier. In some ways harder.

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

The Opening Post asks:

quote:

What do you think Christianity is basically about?

I'm having a hard time answering this, especially the requirement to keep it simple. I find a great deal of sense (and not) in a number of different posted answers.

Possibly this OP functions something like a Rorshach Inkblot Test, telling us more about the person doing the answering than anything else.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

Christianity is basically about showing God to the world by following Christ. That does mean being a good person, but it's for God's sake primarily.

Posted by Lord Clonk (# 13205) on :

My understanding is that it's basically about nonviolence. And I believe this to be in accord with most of what else has been said on this thread so far... although talk of Christianity being about God rather than us confuses me because it treats God and us as having dissociable interests.

In the past couple of days I've been marveling at how this makes me feel in my bones, like nothing I've felt before about this, that Christianity is truly good and life-transforming news.

[ 11. June 2013, 19:13: Message edited by: Lord Clonk ]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Christianity is basically about being a follower of Jesus Christ and this is evidenced by a life which is characterised by the things which he taught and modeled.
Sounds like a description of being a "good person" to me. Could you be so described if you didn't follow Jesus Christ "through whom all things were made"?

Yes, you can be a good person w/o being a follower of Jesus-- which is why Mrs.Beaky's answer is not synonymous with "being a good person". Similarly, you could suck at "being good" for various reasons and still be a "follower of Jesus" who is attempting to live a life "characterized by the things he modeled". It's about intent more than outcome.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
Christianity is basically about showing God to the world by following Christ. That does mean being a good person, but it's for God's sake primarily.

But as I said upthread, I don't think Christianity should be defined by how we follow Jesus. Surely Christianity should be defined by how Jesus makes us his followers. If we focus our definitions on the act of following, our Christianity becomes about us and our efforts at goodness, pacifism, holiness, social justice, asceticism whatever.

Whereas, if Christianity is defined by how Jesus makes us his disciples it keeps it about him, his work and his grace, which is surely a better way of defining what it is about Christianity which is different to other religions or systems of morality.

[ 11. June 2013, 19:21: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Clonk:
My understanding is that it's basically about nonviolence. And I believe this to be in accord with most of what else has been said on this thread so far... although talk of Christianity being about God rather than us confuses me because it treats God and us as having dissociable interests.

In the past couple of days I've been marveling at how this makes me feel in my bones, like nothing I've felt before about this, that Christianity is truly good and life-transforming news.

It is about God rather than us. The teaching of Jesus is counter to our way of doing things, as here . It is good and life-transforming, and at the same time tough and often against our best interests. Check out the saints.

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway: But as I said upthread, I don't think Christianity should be defined by how we follow Jesus. Surely Christianity should be defined by how Jesus makes us his followers. If we focus our definitions on the act of following, our Christianity becomes about us and our efforts at goodness, pacifism, holiness, social justice, asceticism whatever.

Whereas, if Christianity is defined by how Jesus makes us his disciples it keeps it about him, his work and his grace, which is surely a better way of defining what it is about Christianity which is different to other religions or systems of morality.

I was not suggesting that it should be defined by how we follow, as if it were by our effort and nothing to do with the way Jesus makes us his disciples, or to do with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The resulting demonstration of Christ in us shows God to the world, whether through goodness, holiness, etc.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

So far, by a country mile, KLS.

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

Clue's in the name - Christ. Or as someone summarised it "Jesus is Lord - what are you going to do about it?"

Posted by Lord Clonk (# 13205) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It is about God rather than us. The teaching of Jesus is counter to our way of doing things, as here . It is good and life-transforming, and at the same time tough and often against our best interests. Check out the saints.

Agreed, it is at the same time tough and from a selfish perspective often against our best interests. That being said, I believe it is for our best interests from the perspective of everyone taken as a whole. Do you disagree?

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Christianity is about making all whole.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Clue's in the name - Christ. Or as someone summarised it "Jesus is Lord - what are you going to do about it?"

But this is equal to saying redness is about red.

[ 12. June 2013, 00:04: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
A FB status:

quote:

She: Christianity is basically about being a good person, isn't it?

Me: No.

She: Oh.
So what's wrong with this view? What's right with it?

Seems to me you could argue it's too concerned with a works based salvation. Yet it's quite easy to argue it the other way - theosis, abundant life, true humanity in faith and in Christ etc.

What do you think Christianity is basically about?*

(*please try keep it to a one liner, preferably in contemporary, simple language - you know - for us normal people)

Potlucks. Duh.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Mockingale [Overused]

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

Maybe Christianity is basically about God.

Becoming a good person can be one side effect (a potentially pukeworthy one, if one confuses it with false piety).

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
"You're all ratbags, but you're forgiven anyway, so go and act in the same generous way to everyone else.

PS - I'll be back to check you're not using this as an excuse to be a complete bastard."

A lovely definition of Grace.

[Overused]

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
It is not about us, it is about God.
I guess we can shutter all the churches and everyone can just sleep in on Sundays then?

Isn't that about doing what you want - thus being all about you rather than God. The opposite of Christianity therefore.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
It is not about us, it is about God.
I guess we can shutter all the churches and everyone can just sleep in on Sundays then?
Isn't that about doing what you want - thus being all about you rather than God. The opposite of Christianity therefore.

There's not a problem in saying Christianity is, in part, about us, is there? As for 'doing what you want', I'd say being a Christian (I know that wasn't the exact question in the OP) is submitting to God and being transformed by him so that what we want becomes the same as what he wants. The closer we approach this state, the better it is for us to 'do what we want'!

[ 12. June 2013, 09:54: Message edited by: South Coast Kevin ]

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Originally quoted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Christianity is basically about being a follower of Jesus Christ and this is evidenced by a life which is characterised by the things which he taught and modeled.
Sounds like a description of being a "good person" to me. Could you be so described if you didn't follow Jesus Christ "through whom all things were made"?

Yes, you can be a good person w/o being a follower of Jesus-- which is why Mrs.Beaky's answer is not synonymous with "being a good person". Similarly, you could suck at "being good" for various reasons and still be a "follower of Jesus" who is attempting to live a life "characterized by the things he modeled". It's about intent more than outcome.

Thank you, that is nearer the heart of what I was trying to say...I so wish now I hadn't tried to obey the OP's request for brevity!

Following Jesus is what it's all about and that includes aspiring to live a life that reflects his teaching and behaviour....and I so often fail.
My former boss (who was an atheist and tried to behave in a highly moral manner) and I often talked about Christianity and he once said to me "Even if you weren't a Christian you'd still be the same person, wouldn't you?" And in some ways he was right: I am by nature a fairly considerate person as was he, I have a strong sense of loyalty as did he but in others ways he was wrong. I thought about choices I'd made down through the years and concluded that I couldn't have made them without the strength I drew from my relationship with God and the transforming power it brings and the grace it supplies when I fail.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Clonk:
Agreed, it is at the same time tough and from a selfish perspective often against our best interests. That being said, I believe it is for our best interests from the perspective of everyone taken as a whole. Do you disagree?

No. I like the way SCK puts it:

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
As for 'doing what you want', I'd say being a Christian (I know that wasn't the exact question in the OP) is submitting to God and being transformed by him so that what we want becomes the same as what he wants. The closer we approach this state, the better it is for us to 'do what we want'!

Posted by barrea (# 3211) on :

It starts with repentance, believing that Christ died for our sins, Receiving the Holy Spirit into our lives, and letting him transform us.

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
It is not about us, it is about God.
I guess we can shutter all the churches and everyone can just sleep in on Sundays then?
Isn't that about doing what you want - thus being all about you rather than God. The opposite of Christianity therefore.

It's the difference between instrumental and expressive ideas of our relationship with God. We don't worship God in order to somehow not go to hell, we worship God because we are in a relationship of love with God. And sometimes, if you really feel like staying in bed, God would prefer that you do that. It's pretty straightforward.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Christianity is basically about our relationship with God and with each other. (Mt 22:37-40)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
mousethief: Christianity is basically about our relationship with God and with each other. (Mt 22:37-40)

I would add our relationship with ourselves too.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
mousethief: Christianity is basically about our relationship with God and with each other. (Mt 22:37-40)
I would add our relationship with ourselves too.

I would add our relationship with other people too.
The catchy love your neighbour as yourself bit.

[ 13. June 2013, 01:36: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
no prophet: I would add our relationship with other people too.

Ehm, I guess that was covered in mousethief's 'and with each other' [Biased]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
no prophet: I would add our relationship with other people too.
Ehm, I guess that was covered in mousethief's 'and with each other'

I feel the love.

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