quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Hi folks,

As I'd derail a Purgatorial thread - but I wanted to say this re Thatcher dying...

DING DONG THE BITCH IS DEAD!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The posts from Boogie and Alex Cockell are offensive.

Whatever your opinion of Margaret Thatcher's governments, a woman has just died and she will be mourned by her family and friends.

For people on a site such as SoF to make these responses is uncharitable and unChristian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The posts from Boogie and Alex Cockell are offensive.

Whatever your opinion of Margaret Thatcher's governments, a woman has just died and she will be mourned by her family and friends.

For people on a site such as SoF to make these responses is uncharitable and unChristian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
...there you go again, Boogie.

Presumably you'd be delighted then if someone who found your husband or parents less than congenial responded to news of their death by singing and dancing and postings like yours?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

DING DONG THE BITCH IS DEAD!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
My husband just sang "Hey ho the wicked witch is dead" - in fact he's still singing it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
I knew that when the day came, this thread would be created. And yet although it was expected, it still has a strange power to shock.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

DING DONG THE BITCH IS DEAD!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
My husband just sang "Hey ho the wicked witch is dead" - in fact he's still singing it.

---

I knew that when the day came, this thread would be created. And yet although it was expected, it still has a strange power to shock.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your time in this online Hell. I look forward to you rotting in the real one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
As it was a cathartic thread - this was why I posted in Hell rather than Purg.

This is where Shippies can let off steam.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The posts from Boogie and Alex Cockell are offensive.

Whatever your opinion of Margaret Thatcher's governments, a woman has just died and she will be mourned by her family and friends.

For people on a site such as SoF to make these responses is uncharitable and unChristian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
Anyway, I hope you enjoy your time in this online Hell. I look forward to you rotting in the real one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
As it was a cathartic thread - this was why I posted in Hell rather than Purg.

This is where Shippies can let off steam.

---

I'm fully aware of what this board is for and what you believe you were doing. But that doesn't justify what you've done. (In my view, anyway - you obviously disagree.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
I look forward to you rotting in the real one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Compared to your wishing for others to be tortured eternally, even the worst of the gravedancing has been a model of civility and respect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I'll see you there - I'll even buy you a pint.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
If Cameron gives her a state funeral, I hope he has the decency not to drag The Queen along.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
If Cameron gives her a state funeral, I hope he has the decency not to drag The Queen along.


If it were up to me, I'd leave it to her family to dispose of her remains and not upset the whole country. A prayer and then straight through the curtain for her!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
To quote Robin Ince: People cross that some are reveling in Thatcher's death, yet surely one of her goals was a society without compassion & empathy?

---

Wrong - in her opinion there is no such thing as society

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Elvis Costello wrote a song for this very occasion. Clearly with the same left-leaning sentiments of some Shipmates. (And from the comments, clearly I'm not the only one who recalled it at this time.)

---

quote:

---

Originally written by Sir Bernard Ingham:

Only the ignorant, the unprincipled left or the downright lazy still allege Thatcher said “there is no such thing as society” without regard to context.

In uttering those words she was, in fact, saying there is indeed a society: it is you and me but not some abstract state on whom people tend to cast their problems.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
She was part of the Hillsborough cover-up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The posts from Boogie and Alex Cockell are offensive.

Whatever your opinion of Margaret Thatcher's governments, a woman has just died and she will be mourned by her family and friends.

For people on a site such as SoF to make these responses is uncharitable and unChristian.

---

Totally agree. Very very bad form. Shame on them both At times like this I wish we had the equivalent of the US 30 day 'flag rule'.
 

---

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
I've been dreading this day for years. Not because I care greatly about the death of an old woman who was so gaga that this is probably a merciful release, but because the papers, airwaves and interwebs are going to be full of predictable trolling from both sides for days.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
Too bad the IRA didn't get her.

---

That's an even more shameful statement.
 

---

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally written by Sir Bernard Ingham:

Only the ignorant, the unprincipled left or the downright lazy still allege Thatcher said “there is no such thing as society” without regard to context.

In uttering those words she was, in fact, saying there is indeed a society: it is you and me but not some abstract state on whom people tend to cast their problems.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
But this particular cancerous cow fucked up this country so badly

---

Yes: the modern, successful, prosperous hellhole that is the post-Thatcher UK is utterly fucked up compared to the paradise of power cuts, uncollected garbage and constant strikes that came before. And because of deindustrialisation I'm forced to work in a comfortable office rather than breaking my back down a pit or on a factory production line like I would have had I been born a few decades earlier. Truly this is Hell.
 

---

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :
 
I think ti was stuff like the Loadsamoney culture as well as deregulating the City that led directly to LIBORgate etc - and the other aspects like that - and other social costs - that has led to a lot of hatred.

I can see a direct line in how all 3 main political parties are so far over to the right that there's not a fag-paper between them - and how we have dishonest politicians in ripping apart the Welfare State and Social Contract...

And this would have probably not been thinkable if we hadn't had the more fascistic elements of Thatcherism...
 

---

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I can see a direct line in how all 3 main political parties are so far over to the right that there's not a fag-paper between them - and how we have dishonest politicians in ripping apart the Welfare State and Social Contract...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The posts from Boogie and Alex Cockell are offensive.

Whatever your opinion of Margaret Thatcher's governments, a woman has just died and she will be mourned by her family and friends.

For people on a site such as SoF to make these responses is uncharitable and unChristian.

---

Totally agree. Very very bad form. Shame on them both At times like this I wish we had the equivalent of the US 30 day 'flag rule'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
I believe it refers to it being bad form to criticise a former President's legacy until 30 days after his death. Be nice if some posters could observe that here

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The posts from Boogie and Alex Cockell are offensive.

Whatever your opinion of Margaret Thatcher's governments, a woman has just died and she will be mourned by her family and friends.

For people on a site such as SoF to make these responses is uncharitable and unChristian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Downing Street have confirmed she will get a state funeral and rightfully so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I'm no fan of her policies, but surely it's silly to blame her alone for something a whole government, and indeed a whole country, was complicit in?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
A whole government, but not a whole country. The entire Thatcher regime was based on choosing sides in every politcal and economic issue and using the power of the State to support her side and oppose the other. Everything they did was top make some people richer by making others poorer. Her government never got anywhere near half the popular vote - not even in the 1983 khaki election. An actual majority were opposed to her from begining to end. Don't blame us for what the Tories did.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I'm no fan of her policies, but surely it's silly to blame her alone for something a whole government, and indeed a whole country, was complicit in?

---

But the whole country was not complicit - that is rather the point. She was a divisive figure. But, yes, to some extent you are right, in that demonising her as uniquely evil is foolish and could ultimately be counter-productive, if only because it might lead one to believe that what happened couldn't have happened without her and won't ever be repeated. Both faulty conclusions, in my view.

eta: X-posted with ken and stejjie

[ 08. April 2013, 15:16: Message edited by: QLib ]
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
ken:



Well said.

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Uncharitable, unchristian, inhuman - yep, all of the above. I know this because I'm feeling them.

A lot of my anger stems from disappointment. I will never forget 1979 - I was so thrilled for a woman to become Prime Minister. I stayed up all night to see her get in.

The slow, steady downhill slope thereafter was sad, enormously disappointing and hard to watch. I began teaching in 1978 and the way she treated teachers was the blueprint for the tests and targets culture we have now.


X1000

[ 08. April 2013, 15:20: Message edited by: Boogie ]
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I was a little surprised when I first discovered that in the UK, people were vocal about hating a retired politician- here, Obama has to say nice things about Reagan, people who hated Bush have begun to think of him less as the devil and more as a clown, etc. [/URL]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Nothing else anywhere near that has happened in Britain in recent times, no other polotician has been anywhere near as divisive.

I doubt if any has in the USA for over a century either - you probably have to go back to Reconstruction to find politicians as widely hated by a large segment of society.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I'm no fan of her policies, but surely it's silly to blame her alone for something a whole government, and indeed a whole country, was complicit in?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm celebrating Thatcher's death because she wanted to exterminate the poor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
CNN - OOPS!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
CNN - OOPS!

---

Is it too early to point out that both of them shafted mine/ors?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet:
The point I took from this is that Thatcher was an ideologue, with disregard for the goodness or badness of what her policies wrought, just following her ideology.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
CNN - OOPS!

---

Is it too early to point out that both of them shafted mine/ors?

---

So they did!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
But this particular cancerous cow fucked up this country so badly

---

Yes: the modern, successful, prosperous hellhole that is the post-Thatcher UK is utterly fucked up compared to the paradise of power cuts, uncollected garbage and constant strikes that came before. And because of deindustrialisation I'm forced to work in a comfortable office rather than breaking my back down a pit or on a factory production line like I would have had I been born a few decades earlier. Truly this is Hell.

---

quote:

---

Downing Street have confirmed she will get a state funeral

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Oh get over it. There's a world of difference between wanting to kill people and wanting to make people take care of themselves rather than relying on government handouts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Or should I dig out the pictures of Jimmy Saville at the BBC and Tony Blair 'hand-in-hand' with the Murdochs? Or would those slurs be too far for you since they do not slur/implicate a person from the right of British politics but rather the darling of the modern left and that over large dictatorship of an organisation?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm celebrating Thatcher's death because she wanted to exterminate the poor.

---

Oh get over it. There's a world of difference between wanting to kill people and wanting to make people take care of themselves rather than relying on government handouts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
... Tony Blair ... left

---

 

---

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
CNN - OOPS!

---

Is it too early to point out that both of them shafted mine/ors?

---

So they did!

---

Are we really going here...?

Or should I dig out the pictures of Jimmy Saville at the BBC and Tony Blair 'hand-in-hand' with the Murdochs? Or would those slurs be too far for you since they do not slur/implicate a person from the right of British politics but rather the darling of the modern left and that over large dictatorship of an organisation?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
I believe her economic policies were designed to create a large unemployment base in order to drive down employment costs. I don't attribute this to malice, I think she genuinely believed in trickle-down economics and that this course of action would produce a generally better society.

---

quote:

---

Thatcher's been politically harmless since the Attack of the Dead Sheep. What concerns me now is the way the current government has turned its attacks to the underclass itself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
<snip> Tony Blair <snip> the darling of the modern left

---

Good one. Dumbarse.
 

---

Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :
 
I'm out of London and off Radio and TV. It's a good time to be in that situation.

I will continue to work for the poor, the unemployed, the migrants, and for a just society. Despite everything.
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
At least she survived long enough to see that socialism is completely dead. Thank God.
 

---

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
Ah... a tendency to premature ejaculation.

Explains pretty much everything.
 

---

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
<snip> Tony Blair <snip> the darling of the modern left

---

Good one. Dumbarse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
At least she survived long enough to see that socialism is completely dead. Thank God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
At least she survived long enough to see that socialism is completely dead. Thank God.

---

Just 10 minutes on this website suggests that - worryingly - this isn't the case.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
And I come from the south, so do a lot of people who don't vote Tory. We're just gerrymandered out of sight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
showing that stallwart lie of the left that all wealth in the country belongs to the government in some sense to be beneveolantly given out by the central state.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
<snip> Tony Blair <snip> the darling of the modern left

---

Good one. Dumbarse.

---

Did you not see the modern bit in there - go check your glasses prescription! - the vaguely more sensible modern centre-left (which has seen sense and adopted much of the centre-right) rather than the backwards, union dominated, nation destroying left that encapsulates the left before and during Thatchers time in office and which that idiot jackarse Ed Balls encapsulates now.

Blair's government was still of the left regardless of what old reds like to moan, and his government did much that was of the left and unneccesary and destructive such as the fox hunting ban and the inflation of the civil service and welfare state, and showing that stallwart lie of the left that all wealth in the country belongs to the government in some sense to be beneveolantly given out by the central state. It was only Thatchers sensibility and success that made Blair modernise the Labour party to such a point that allowed it to be as successful as it was.

So go screw yourself in a dark corner and take your leftist stupidity with you!

---

You are entertaining, but laughing at the mentally handicapped gets quite hollow quickly. Still,

Blair, like many of the politicians representing historically left parties in the eighties and nineties, would be much more accurately described as centre-right. Down here in Oz we recognise them, as our 'Labor' party was dominated by monetarist Friedmanites Bob 'I can scull a pint faster than any if you mugs' Hawke and Paul 'Hullo scumbags' Keating. The success of the centre right economic rationalisation of the purportedly Labor governments here forced our conservatives to take a much more extreme right position on social issues, leading to the virtual disappearance of the 'wets' in the conservative parties. Which goes along way to explaining Little Johnny Howard down here - and, I suspect, your David Cameron.
I trust that was clear enough for you. I don't have a Golden book to explain it to you in terms you will grasp. Blair certainly didn't think of himself as particularly 'Left'.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
And I come from the south, so do a lot of people who don't vote Tory. We're just gerrymandered out of sight.

---

All the tired and part-blind assertions are coming out of the woodwork today... I wonder how you feel about Labour's gerrymandering of constituencies across the UK?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
There are a lot of non-Tories in the South, and they have no voice. Whatever the reason. And that is not fair or democratic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell
Hi folks,

As I'd derail a Purgatorial thread - but I wanted to say this re Thatcher dying...

DING DONG THE BITCH IS DEAD!!!!

---

quote:

---

I wonder what the general opinion among white folks in Atlanta was when they heard that US Grant was dead?

---

quote:

---

posted by Boogie
does anyone else find it strange that she lived at the Ritz Hotel? Seems an odd and impersonal place to live.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
At least she survived long enough to see that socialism is completely dead. Thank God.

---

quote:

---

I suppose it must be hard for those who desire their lives to be controlled by others (in other words, pathetic losers)

---

quote:

---

The more I read the spiteful and mean-spirited comments of the left, the more I feel inclined to move towards the kind of political and social thinking that Thatcher espoused.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by North East Quine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
At least she survived long enough to see that socialism is completely dead. Thank God.

---

Waves to deano from Scotland. Anti-Thatcher feeling has helped socialism survive. Did you know that Scotland has more Pandas than Tory MPs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
There are a lot of non-Tories in the South, and they have no voice. Whatever the reason. And that is not fair or democratic.

---

Try being a Tory in the Black Country. I may as well not bother voting, for all the chance I've got of seeing my constituency ever turn blue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

As for odd and impersonal - have you visited an EMI nursing home or had a relative in one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
... or the talk of Mandela being a "terrorist"...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
What gets me is the stunning lack of empathy with those who hate Thatcher. We hear talk of "lefties" this and "lefties" that, but little engagement with the concerns.

---

quote:

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel
It's the disregard of peoples' concerns that gets me. I mean, now we're seeing a government using a tragedy in order to score points against people on benefit as well as reduced help for disabled people, and it is at this time we see a Thatcher-lover here trolling about Obama.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yeah, but how many of those on the left have even a single fuck to give about the concerns of those on the right? There's no empathy in that direction either - everyone's just in it for their own side.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
I know many long-term/lifetime disabled (benefit of spending time in a spinal injuries unit) and NOT ONE of them is having the benefits they receive reduced, not one. But perhaps that is what "targetting" means - making sure that the people who are in greatest need get the greatest amount of help?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
What gets me is the stunning lack of empathy with those who hate Thatcher. We hear talk of "lefties" this and "lefties" that, but little engagement with the concerns.

---

Yeah, but how many of those on the left have even a single fuck to give about the concerns of those on the right? There's no empathy in that direction either - everyone's just in it for their own side.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson
Your rhetoric in the first quote leads me to suspect that your posture of balanced and thoughtful consideration in the second quote is a bit of a put-on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell
DING DONG THE BITCH IS DEAD!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
After all, I wouldn't want to think you are playing the hypocrite with me, would I?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edith:
ATOS has just decided that Mrs Thatcher is fit for work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Her government never got anywhere near half the popular vote - not even in the 1983 khaki election. An actual majority were opposed to her from begining to end. Don't blame us for what the Tories did.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
What gets me is the stunning lack of empathy with those who hate Thatcher. We hear talk of "lefties" this and "lefties" that, but little engagement with the concerns.

---

Yeah, but how many of those on the left have even a single fuck to give about the concerns of those on the right? There's no empathy in that direction either - everyone's just in it for their own side.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Where are all these disabled people "getting reduced help": I know many long-term/lifetime disabled (benefit of spending time in a spinal injuries unit) and NOT ONE of them is having the benefits they receive reduced, not one.

---

quote:

---

[...]

As for people's concerns being disregarded - well, there are plenty of people who have been mightily concerned at the number of people deemed to be inacapable of looking after/providing for themselves. Look at the figures, between 1979 and 1990 the number of people registered as being incapable of working in the UK when compared to the rest of the EU went from being broadly similar to at least three times the number per 1,000.

---

quote:

---

Scoring points against people on benefit? , I think the point being made by some Tory politicians was that Mr Philpott was not himself entitled to anything other than unemployment benefit (I know, "Jobseeker's Allowance) but in fact his bank account was where the benefits rightfully belonging to his wife and his live-in lover ended up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Yes, QLib, most in 2 bed (at least) - but that is to provide for overnight care.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Given that Mrs Thatcher encouraged small government, personal responsibility and economically viable industries,

---

quote:

---

I suppose it must be hard for those who desire their lives to be controlled by others (in other words, pathetic losers) to show due respect to such a person. This kind of dependency mentality is characteristic of someone who has failed to mature in life. It probably explains the puerility of your comments, which any normal person would have grown out of at about the age of 13.

---

The old lie that right-wingers are more libertarian thn left-wingers. Never remotely true in Britain. The Tories are and always have been the party of the monarchy, of authority, of social control, of domination, of the powerful State, of the rich doing what they hell they like and the rest of us obeying orders like good little forlelock-tossing arse-licking peasants. Not citizens, not autonomous human beings, but just "human resources". Our only reason for existence to provide them with a little bit of cheap labour now and again when they want some work done. And when there is no work, to be stripped of all dignity and individuality and proicessed into some sort of standardised jobseeking crawler, parroting the words and behaviour of the minders they deign to put over us.

Yes, and that rant isn;t so myuch about Thatchers as about that excecrable shite George Osborne, the nasty evil little toffee-nosed cunt that the is. Thatcher's gone and the bloody government is run by Lord Snooty and his pals.
 

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Yes, QLib, most in 2 bed (at least) - but that is to provide for overnight care.

Look, we all want to give the incapacitated a hand-up but there are also many people (over 800,000 at the last count) who, faced with a medical check on their current condition chose to take themselves "off the sick" - and this when the successful appeal rate against the much-flawed ASOS regime is at about 80%.

As our US cousins would say, go figure, it aint rocket science.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Other people, ... have not been as lucky.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GreyFace:
Scope reckons 600,000 people will eventually lose their benefits as a result of the switch. I'd be interested to see where you sourced your figure of the numbers failing to claim after being told they're going to be assessed. I find it unbelievable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Compared to your wishing for others to be tortured eternally, even the worst of the gravedancing has been a model of civility and respect.

---

You're right. I should have held my tongue after the first paragraph but I was angry. I'm sorry.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I'll see you there - I'll even buy you a pint.

---

Thank you but I suspect they'll only serve lager down there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Look at the figures, between 1979 and 1990 the number of people registered as being incapable of working in the UK when compared to the rest of the EU went from being broadly similar to at least three times the number per 1,000.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:
If Cameron gives her a state funeral, I hope he has the decency not to drag The Queen along.


If it were up to me, I'd leave it to her family to dispose of her remains and not upset the whole country. A prayer and then straight through the curtain for her!

---

If there is a state funeral I will be out of the country for a long weekend.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Edith:
ATOS has just decided that Mrs Thatcher is fit for work.

---

 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
And what's this ' full military honours' malarky at the funeral? She didn't serve in the forces- in fact chose not to, in 1943 (though I'm not blaming her for that)- and her great 'victory' in the Falklands only had to happen because her government was sending strong signals to the Argentinians that we weren't prepared to defend the islands. Did Edward Heath (ex Lt Col RA) or Jim Callaghan (ex Lt RN, and the PM who pre-empted an Argentinian attack on the Falklands in 1977) have full military honours?
 

---

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
The news front-end for my email provider has the following interesting headline:

Thatcher to receive ceremonial funeral

---

Um, aren't all funerals ceremonial?
 

---

Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
I have mixed feelings about Thatcher. I'm not quite old enough to remember her well (I was born a few months after her election - and rather embarassingly, my middle name is Margaret. My parents chose it because it was my great-grandmother's name, nothing to do with the Iron Lady, but it's still a bit unfortunate ) - but since this is a rant thread, mostly what I'm narked about is the fact that there's going to be nothing else on the BBC for bloody WEEKS.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
and the Tories are carrying on with Thatcherite policies that has cost this country a hell of a lot...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
... is the Left ever very edifying?

Wilson, Falkender, Kagan, Stonehouse, Moreley, Jacqui Smith, Lord Ahmed all come to mind...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
You mean, like moving more of the world's wealth into the pockets of the super-wealthy? Yeah, the left has been shockingly dismissive of that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I have little empathy with those on "the right" who are wealthy

---

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: the left want to move wealth into theirs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm celebrating Thatcher's death because she wanted to exterminate the poor.

---

Oh get over it. There's a world of difference between wanting to kill people and wanting to make people take care of themselves rather than relying on government handouts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The posts from Boogie and Alex Cockell are offensive.

Whatever your opinion of Margaret Thatcher's governments, a woman has just died and she will be mourned by her family and friends.

For people on a site such as SoF to make these responses is uncharitable and unChristian.

---

Totally agree. Very very bad form. Shame on them both At times like this I wish we had the equivalent of the US 30 day 'flag rule'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
That doesn't sound like the Left I know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Bollocks, Marvin. The Right want to move wealth into their own pockets, the Left wants to move it into ours.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Bollocks, Marvin. The Right want to move wealth into their own pockets, the Left wants to move it into ours.

---

The Left wants to put money in my pocket? Since when? Socialist governments are not usually renowned for their low tax rates...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Bollocks, Marvin. The Right want to move wealth into their own pockets, the Left wants to move it into ours.

---

The Left wants to put money in my pocket? Since when? Socialist governments are not usually renowned for their low tax rates...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
There has to be a solution somewhere which allows thee and me to have our views influence the rule of the state when appropriate. Goodness knows what it is, though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: the left want to move wealth into theirs.

---

That doesn't sound like the Left I know. Like I told you before, I know quite a number of people of the Left that vote for policies that would cost them money.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
What gets me is the stunning lack of empathy with those who hate Thatcher. We hear talk of "lefties" this and "lefties" that, but little engagement with the concerns.

---

Yeah, but how many of those on the left have even a single fuck to give about the concerns of those on the right? There's no empathy in that direction either - everyone's just in it for their own side.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Bollocks, Marvin. The Right want to move wealth into their own pockets, the Left wants to move it into ours.

---

The Left wants to put money in my pocket? Since when? Socialist governments are not usually renowned for their low tax rates...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Hi folks,

As I'd derail a Purgatorial thread - but I wanted to say this re Thatcher dying...

DING DONG THE BITCH IS DEAD!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Right. Now, I wanted to make one other observation...

It hit me, catching up on this thread, that there's one thing fairly remarkable/odd about this sense of celebration from some quarters: this woman hasn't been in power since 1990.

People are carrying on in much the same way that is usually used for the toppling of a hated dictator. You know, one who was in power immediately before toppling.

What sort of victory are you celebrating, exactly? Is the political landscape radically altered by the death of a woman who hasn't formed part of government for a couple of decades? Government going to fall? Cabinet reshuffle required? Policy rethink?

Urgent memo on an undersecretary's desk?

Thatcher's death doesn't mean shit, practically speaking. So it seems a bit dopey to get carried away over it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
1. Margaret Thatcher is most surely with her Lord now.

2. Those so low as to mock her and revel in her demise are headed elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
1. Margaret Thatcher is most surely with her Lord now.

2. Those so low as to mock her and revel in her demise are headed elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeteC:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
1. Margaret Thatcher is most surely with her Lord now.

2. Those so low as to mock her and revel in her demise are headed elsewhere.

---

How so very kind of you to remind us. See Anglican't upthread.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
2. Those so low as to mock her and revel in her demise are headed elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
Part of me wonders whether it's envy, Orfeo.

The left in Britain want to revolutionise society but haven't done so. But Mrs Thatcher has.

---

quote:

---

The left hate fascism and campaign against fascism. Mrs Thatcher took on a fascist junta and played a key role in destroying it.

---

quote:

---

The left want to mobilise the working classes. Mrs Thatcher identified their aspirations and won many of them over.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

Thatcher's death doesn't mean shit, practically speaking. So it seems a bit dopey to get carried away over it.

---

quote:

---

There is absolutely nothing wrong with loathing Margaret Thatcher or any other person with political influence and power based upon perceived bad acts, and that doesn't change simply because they die. If anything, it becomes more compelling to commemorate those bad acts upon death as the only antidote against a society erecting a false and jingoistically self-serving history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

I can remember some people celebrating Diana's death as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

Thatcher's death doesn't mean shit, practically speaking. So it seems a bit dopey to get carried away over it.

---

quote:

---

When death is freedom from the shackles of dementia, one could argue that it is a death in which to be rejoiced.

At her death, there is less evil in the world.

Yes, she was a courageous politician who fought for her principles and vanquished her enemies. But, in doing so, she destroyed, not the strikers, but the working class as a whole. Destroying their contribution to the economy, she replaced it with nothing. A sense of non-worth that has plagued entire communities for 30 years.

Is her passing from this world something in which we can rejoice? Yes, and heartily! As a Christian, I will pray for her, as for all the departed, asking that God will cleanse her from her sins through the fires of Purgatory and welcome her into his Kingdom. It'll take a while, though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:

What gets me is the stunning lack of empathy with those who hate Thatcher.

<snip>

I can take it that individual Tories can be OK people. During hard financial times in my life I have benefited from a few Daily Mail types who paid for bird-watching holidays, donating me sofas and clothes, something that stops me from believing all Tory voters to be twats.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I didn't like her either, but malicious gloating and vindictive pleasure (especially from people young enough not to have been there during her time as PM) just show someone up for what they are.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The second paragraph answers your first; don't demonise the woman and vilify those who think she did at least some good, and then whinge about lack of empathy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
It's as if those who defend Thatcher are indignant that people don't like her. It's like they cannot imagine that life got worse for a lot of people when she was in power.

---

quote:

---

for those who died due to increased poverty levels

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
to read some of the revolting posts here you'd think that Hitler or Pol Pot had passed away

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
It's as if those who defend Thatcher are indignant that people don't like her. It's like they cannot imagine that life got worse for a lot of people when she was in power.

---

Life always gets worse for some people when there's a change in who is in power. The only thing that changes is which people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've been on Job Seeker's, it's bloody awful and they make you feel like a criminal.

That said, there are those who 'work the system' of course and there is certainly something of a dependency culture in some quarters. But even so ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
So are you saying that it doesn't matter which people's lives get worse, to what extent and for what purpose?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
So are you saying that it doesn't matter which people's lives get worse, to what extent and for what purpose?

---

My primary concern is making sure it's not me. My secondary concern is making sure it's not anyone I care about. Everyone else - in both directions - is tertiary at best.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
But as Christian, Marvin, surely 'anyone I care about' should be a very large group indeed?

---

There are levels of caring. Priorities, if you will. To say that someone I don't know at all is less important to me than a member of my own family isn't to say they're not important at all, just that if I'm only able to help one of them (for whatever reason) it'll be the family member.
 

---

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 
Marvin. I may disagree with your opinions but I thoroughly respect you for your honesty.
 

---

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
I was discussing matters with my son's godfather (who is a Tory) this morning.

Apart from the 'who runs the country' argument, he went through a list of her 'achievements' and sadly came to the conclusion that her legacy is a disaster.

He is, of course, one of the nice Tories, not a arsehat like deano...
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Not only did she bugger up the country, she also stuffed the Conservative Party for a good 15 years at least: too many of them never got over losing her.
 

---

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken
...large chunks of profitable industry were deliberately shut down...

---

quote:

---

The Tories are and always have been the party of the monarchy, of authority, of social control, of domination, of the powerful State, of the rich doing what they hell they like and the rest of us obeying orders like good little forlelock-tossing arse-licking peasants. Not citizens, not autonomous human beings, but just "human resources". Our only reason for existence to provide them with a little bit of cheap labour now and again when they want some work done. And when there is no work, to be stripped of all dignity and individuality and proicessed into some sort of standardised jobseeking crawler, parroting the words and behaviour of the minders they deign to put over us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
2. Those so low as to mock her and revel in her demise are headed elsewhere.

---

Ah. Destination based on the merits of ones deeds. How spectacularly un-Christian of you.

EDIT: Not that quite a few of you aren't just as theologically dodgy the other way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken
...large chunks of profitable industry were deliberately shut down...

---

Do please elaborate on the claim that genuinely profitable industries were 'deliberately' shut down. Some specific examples giving details of net profit margins would be helpful, please.

quote:

---

The Tories are and always have been the party of the monarchy, of authority, of social control, of domination, of the powerful State, of the rich doing what they hell they like and the rest of us obeying orders like good little forlelock-tossing arse-licking peasants. Not citizens, not autonomous human beings, but just "human resources". Our only reason for existence to provide them with a little bit of cheap labour now and again when they want some work done. And when there is no work, to be stripped of all dignity and individuality and proicessed into some sort of standardised jobseeking crawler, parroting the words and behaviour of the minders they deign to put over us.

---

And your economic solution is?

98% tax rate perhaps?

Government by Marxist unions?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
The legacy she left dies stretch out today. She killed off the left and all that remains is the pale, watered down rubbish of Blairism and the sad joke that is socialism-on-the-net, consisting of aged 80's militant supporters and youngsters trying to be cool so they can get laid.

Neither are worth wasting a vote on in my opinion. The electorate will only tolerate the Blairite style and will laugh until the tears flow at the Scargill-meets-media-luvies.

The ship is like a zoo. The last chance to see lefties. Without your help these sad little creatures will be extinct in another twenty years. Pity nobody gives a shite.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Ken wrote:

quote:

---

I wonder what the general opinion among white folks in Atlanta was when they heard that US Grant was dead?

---

I think the guy you might have in mind is General Sherman. You might find this article interesting. It argues that at least some of what he is villified for was exaggerated. Apparently, the burning of Atlanta was more "functionalist" than "intentionalist", and Sherman actually made half-hearted attempts to contain the fire.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
There has to be a solution somewhere which allows thee and me to have our views influence the rule of the state when appropriate. Goodness knows what it is, though.

---

It's called proportional representation. You all ran away from it screaming on the basis that it allegedly takes Australians weeks to conduct an election, or some other nonsense that didn't bear any resemblance to what's actually happened here for the last century.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
...this woman hasn't been in power since 1990.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Deano
She killed off the left and all that remains is the pale, watered down rubbish of Blairism and the sad joke that is socialism-on-the-net, consisting of aged 80's militant supporters and youngsters trying to be cool so they can get laid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
...there you go again, Boogie.

Presumably you'd be delighted then if someone who found your husband or parents less than congenial responded to news of their death by singing and dancing and postings like yours?

And before you ask, I am not, nor have ever been, a member of the Conservative Party and I never voted for the woman.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
your economic solution is?

98% tax rate perhaps?

Government by Marxist unions?

Who will provide the money to finance your version of utopia?

Do, pray, tell us all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
Marvin. I may disagree with your opinions but I thoroughly respect you for your honesty.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by deano
She killed off the left and all that remains is the pale, watered down rubbish of Blairism and the sad joke that is socialism-on-the-net, consisting of aged 80's militant supporters and youngsters trying to be cool so they can get laid.

posted by Giac
Does that actually work? Because if so then I wish I'd known that years ago. They should put that on their recruiting posters.

---

No. Love/lust also has to be deaf and blind to survive even a transitory liaison with a leftie, genuine/cool or other. To paraphrase the immortal Stella Gibbons the thing about the Left is, they're terrific hons but the food is terrible and the parties are so dull. Not life imitating art but art getting life to a T!
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Betts:

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
Marvin. I may disagree with your opinions but I thoroughly respect you for your honesty.

---

He is all heart, isn't he George?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
No, I meant Grant as reconstruction-era President who used federal forces to impose political settlements on states and cities that would never have voted for him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
Once the location is announced I would be happy to dance on her grave.

---

Then you are seriously sick
 

---

Posted by augustineofcanterbury2011 (# 16464) on :
 
R.I.P

not over keen on her domestic policies but another soul who has departed this life nonetheless
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
None of which we enjoyed in the 70s

---

Perfectly true, thanks to a combination of short-sighted greedy managers and short-sighted greedy trade unions, goinf back toi the 50s and beyond. The unions in particular valued collective bargaining above social partnership, and the managers and industrialists didn't care as long as the dividends were coming in and they could get by with a minimum of effort. But the answer was not what Thatch gave us.

[ 09. April 2013, 14:31: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Part of what she gave us was. Part of it wasn't.
 

---

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
I am no more sick that Conservative Thatcherite apologists, Matt.
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Part of what she gave us was. Part of it wasn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
Once the location is announced I would be happy to dance on her grave.

---

I would imagine the security around it is going to be rather high
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
I am no more sick that Conservative Thatcherite apologists, Matt.

---

Yes you are. Anyone who rejoices in the death of another (with the possible exceptions of the likes of Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin etc) needs help. That's quite different from disliking her policies. I know this is Hell, but even so, playing the (wo)man and not the ball to the extent you are doing is beyond the pale of decency.
 

---

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
I largely agree with you, Matt. Back in the 80s I was no fan of Thatcher, but I cannot imagine the mentality that wants to dance on her grave. Although I still don't like the effect her policies had on mining, steelmaking, shipbuilding and certain other industries, I think she was absolutely right on the EU, as history has shown, and right to send the Task Force to the Falklands, even though the eventual victory was a propaganda gift for her.

Having myself experienced the death of a mother after a year or more of Alzheimer's (in 2007), I have a lot of sympathy with the Thatcher children right now.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
This link is for Alex Cockell.


 

---

Posted by Dark Knight (# 9415) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
2. Those so low as to mock her and revel in her demise are headed elsewhere.

---

Ah. Destination based on the merits of ones deeds. How spectacularly un-Christian of you.

EDIT: Not that quite a few of you aren't just as theologically dodgy the other way.

---

"You shall know them by their fruit."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
Once the location is announced I would be happy to dance on her grave.

---

I would imagine the security around it is going to be rather high

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
Once the location is announced I would be happy to dance on her grave.

---

I would imagine the security around it is going to be rather high

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
]To put this into perspective, you mean Grant as reconstruction-era president who used federal forces to impose political settlements on states and cities that had just committed an armed rebellion against his country because they refused to abide by the result of an election

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
Ah... a tendency to premature ejaculation.

---

quote:

---

And while on the subject Grant picked up a lot of electoral college votes in the former Confederacy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
This is hell, Matt. If you want defend Maggie I think another venue would be more appropriate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
No. Love/lust also has to be deaf and blind to survive even a transitory liaison with a leftie, genuine/cool or other. To paraphrase the immortal Stella Gibbons the thing about the Left is, they're terrific hons but the food is terrible and the parties are so dull. Not life imitating art but art getting life to a T!

---

quote:

---

From this distant vantage point, the Earth might not seem of any particular interest. But for us, it's different. Consider again that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that in glory and triumph they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner. How frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity – in all this vastness – there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known, so far, to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment, the Earth is where we make our stand. It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.

---

quote:

---

posted by Pre-cambrian
For someone who claims never to have voted for Thatcher or her party you seem to have a remarkable number of hang-ups about "lefties". I can only conclude that she wasn't right-wing enough for you.

---

quote:

---

originally posted by deano
She killed off the left and all that remains is the pale, watered down rubbish of Blairism and the sad joke that is socialism-on-the-net, consisting of aged 80's militant supporters and youngsters trying to be cool so they can get laid.

---

quote:

---

posted by Giac
Does that actually work? Because if so then I wish I'd known that years ago. They should put that on their recruiting posters.

---

And it was at that point that I posted

No. Love/lust also has to be deaf and blind to survive even a transitory liaison with a leftie, genuine/cool or other. To paraphrase the immortal Stella Gibbons the thing about the Left is, they're terrific hons but the food is terrible and the parties are so dull. Not life imitating art but art getting life to a T! [

You obviously don’t recognise gentle humour, even though I gave a massive clue in using an obvious Mitford expression ("terrific hons") but saying it was Stella Gibbons...

(and No, I didn't see something nasty in the woodshed)
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Apples and oranges; we're talking about policies-v-people here. Gordon Brown may have shafted me and mine in more ways than one in the 13 years he was in various offices, but there's no way I'll be glad when he dies.

[reply to George Spigot]

[ 09. April 2013, 17:06: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
 

---

Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Apples and oranges; we're talking about policies-v-people here. Gordon Brown may have shafted me and mine in more ways than one in the 13 years he was in various offices, but there's no way I'll be glad when he dies.
[reply to George Spigot]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
1. You don’t know me

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Yes, so? This is our whinge, not yours.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach82:
I'm no fan of her policies, but surely it's silly to blame her alone for something a whole government, and indeed a whole country, was complicit in?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Anyone who rejoices in the death of another (with the possible exceptions of the likes of Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin etc...)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
Moan about the left celebrating Thatcher's death if you wish it's been less than a week since the right used the deaths of six innocent children for political gain so fuck you guys.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by shamwari:
My first reaction to the jubilation which followed Maggie's demise was that it was out of order.

Then I looked into my own reactions and realised that when Mugabe goes I will have the Mother of All Parties to celebrate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
The figures can be checked with the DWP.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
There was a suggestion on Facebook that the funeral could be put out to private tender with a clause compelling the acceptance of the lowest bid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken
If all right-wingers were as ignorant of politics as you we'd have nothing to fear from them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
Moan about the left celebrating Thatcher's death if you wish it's been less than a week since the right used the deaths of six innocent children for political gain so fuck you guys.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by shamwari:
Then I looked into my own reactions and realised that when Mugabe goes I will have the Mother of All Parties to celebrate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken
If all right-wingers were as ignorant of politics as you we'd have nothing to fear from them.

---

No answer then.

Thanks for that.

Funny how even Neil Kinnock blames Scargill for the demise of the coal industry.

But, hey, if you really think the 1970's was a great time for Britain, then please do pour scorn on me as much as you like. It's really quite amusing to witness such delusion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
Moan about the left celebrating Thatcher's death if you wish it's been less than a week since the right used the deaths of six innocent children for political gain so fuck you guys.

---

And since when did two wrongs make a right? Thank you but I'd rather not join you in your race to the bottom with the anti-welfare Mick Philpott bandwagon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
By the way, just noticed how topical my current signature quotation is. One of the least directly harmful but nonetheless nauseating things about Thatch was her attempts to identify with Churchill - as we shall see next Wednesday, something she was unable to resist even in death. As soon as you start to read anything about Churchill you realise, for all his flaws, how infinitely superior he was in breadth of vision, sympathy, imagination and understanding, both to Thatch herself and to the image of him that she and her like peddled. I am disgusted that we are paying for this last piece of vainglorious pretension.

---

quote:

---

Posted by Pre-cambrian
I wonder how many veterans were cast onto the scrapheap never to work again as a result of Thatcher's mass unemployment policies. Churchill would have been turning in his grave about the way his country and party repaid them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
All this "celebrating" is surely justice bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
All this "celebrating" is surely justice bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

---

It's shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. If you must use cliches, please get them right.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken
If all right-wingers were as ignorant of politics as you we'd have nothing to fear from them.

---

Funny how even Neil Kinnock blames Scargill for the demise of the coal industry.

But, hey, if you really think the 1970's was a great time for Britain, then please do pour scorn on me as much as you like.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
Glenda really went for it!

---

Glenda:
The best thing I've heard since Monday.
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
@Deano Six pages in and you STILL don't get it?
This doesn't come from joy it comes from anger.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Someone mentioned I didn't get it after six pages. I'm sorry but I don't get socialists and socialism after forty six years. So six pages of the usual ship's portside whining is hardly going to do anything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
Glenda really went for it!

---

 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Not frustrated, deano. Disgusted, angry, furious to think of what this country could have been and of what has been done to our people. But you wouldn't understand that kind of feeling. That's one of the differences between the right and the left, you see: the left, with exceptions, sees a big picture and cares about what happens beyond its field of vision: the right- the Thatcherite, neo-liberal right, anyway- doesn't give a fuck. The whole creed was built on not giving a fuck. When she spoke about 'our people' she meant 'us- and not you'.
 

---

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
Glenda really went for it!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Porridge:

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:
Glenda really went for it!

---

GO GLENDA (and good on John Bercow, too)!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
There are quite a few Thatcher insults / criticisms flying around at the moment, but 'Margaret Thatcher wasn't a woman' is a new one on me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
winning the cold war

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
There are quite a few Thatcher insults / criticisms flying around at the moment, but 'Margaret Thatcher wasn't a woman' is a new one on me.

---

Have a look at footage of cabinet meetings etc.

Thatcher was a queen bee.

The willing drones gathered round her, dancing to her tune - the unwilling ones were shafted. Just like our manufacturing base really.

She did nothing for women.

I was disappointed by many things she did and didn't do, this especially. She put the cause of women leaders back by decades. Who would want a Thatcher repeat? (shudder).


 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
The version I remember from the time was 'A woman but not a Sister'.
 

---

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:


Of course my typo above was a mistake. It should have said it's JUST bolting the stable door etc. And thanks to all those of you who pointed it out.

---

[ 11. April 2013, 08:09: Message edited by: Spike ]
 

---

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
There are quite a few Thatcher insults / criticisms flying around at the moment, but 'Margaret Thatcher wasn't a woman' is a new one on me.

---

Have a look at footage of cabinet meetings etc.

Thatcher was a queen bee.

---

quote:

---

She did nothing for women.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

This is putting aside the fact that some women were inspired by having a woman in charge.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Not frustrated, deano. Disgusted, angry, furious to think of what this country could have been and of what has been done to our people. But you wouldn't understand that kind of feeling. That's one of the differences between the right and the left, you see: the left, with exceptions, sees a big picture and cares about what happens beyond its field of vision: the right- the Thatcherite, neo-liberal right, anyway- doesn't give a fuck. The whole creed was built on not giving a fuck. When she spoke about 'our people' she meant 'us- and not you'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
All this "celebrating" is surely justice bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

No matter how you dress it up as joy, it's really just frustration because she won, you lost.

It's a badge of victory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Not frustrated, deano. Disgusted, angry, furious to think of what this country could have been and of what has been done to our people. But you wouldn't understand that kind of feeling. That's one of the differences between the right and the left, you see: the left, with exceptions, sees a big picture and cares about what happens beyond its field of vision: the right- the Thatcherite, neo-liberal right, anyway- doesn't give a fuck. The whole creed was built on not giving a fuck. When she spoke about 'our people' she meant 'us- and not you'.

---

You say potato.

I shudder to think what state the country would be in if Labour had won in 1979.

Happily we were spared that nightmare.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
You say potato.

I shudder to think what state the country would be in if Labour had won in 1979.

Happily we were spared that nightmare.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
You say potato.

I shudder to think what state the country would be in if Labour had won in 1979.

Happily we were spared that nightmare.

---

Spared one, but we had another instead; an unnecessary war, house-price inflation treated as a virtue, interest rates higher than the age of consent, 3 million unemployed and an economic dependence on the globalisation of financial markets.

All this despite the best of the North Sea oil revenues.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And what then Comrades? Jones would have come back!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And what then Comrades? Jones would have come back!

---

Do you mean Jones the KGB informer?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
But she didn't become a man in that sense: she was far above (for good and ill) the men surrounding her, "a tigress surrounded by hamsters".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And what then Comrades? Jones would have come back!

---

Do you mean Jones the KGB informer?

---

Well, we did have a PM who backed a neo-fascist regime in South America. She would have backed another had they not gone to war with us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
Which was what?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That do for now?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
Oh I see, Animal Farm.

---

See, I knew you'd get there in time. It's not true what they say. I said "That Anglican't, he's not stupid. He thinks slower than he talks, but he can see through a brick wall in time, as they say."
 

---

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
Actually, I've read neither Animal Farm nor Lord or the Rings. I know I ought to read the former, not so bothered about the latter.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Not Lord of the Rings?!

Seriously, read both!
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

I shudder to think what state the country would be in if Labour had won in 1979.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stejjie:
Thatcher came to power in a deeply broken, divided country. But she didn't try to heal it and bring it together, no matter what she said on the steps of 10 Downing Street: she came to win, to make her side the champions and to break the other side and to hell with the human consequences of that. She may not have wanted to wage war on the working classes, but it seems unlikely she considered them as any more than the collateral damage in her battle to draw power and wealth to the top of society.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alienfromzog:

If you are one of those losers - and we are talking whole sections of society impoverished and stigmatised and generally depressed by the actions of the state - if you are one of those, I think you are clearly entitled to neither like her nor think her record is something to be celebrated.

---

quote:

---

(She never had majority support btw, but big majorities due to our electoral system).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D. Ward:
A public statement on the press response by one of our regular posters here:

Pete Broadbent as reported by Daily Telegraph

Any thoughts ?

---

quote:

---

[...he...] accused the BBC of “appallingly sycophantic” coverage of the former Prime Minister’s death while the press, he said, was silencing voices of opposition."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
"Glorious Revolutions" tend not to be so "glorious" for those who didn't want them to happen. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D. Ward:
A public statement on the press response by one of our regular posters here:

Pete Broadbent as reported by Daily Telegraph

Any thoughts ?

---

Bishop Pete's politics are well-known

I haven't seen the BBC TV coverage, not being in the UK. "Sycophantic" wouldn't be a fair description of the BBC web coverage though - if anything, the BBC website was weighted too heavily against her record: an over-recalling of things like the Poll Tax riots, but in general it gave a reasonable coverage of her time in office.

I think Labour leaders like Milliband and Blair set the right note, when they talk about how they have some profound disagreements with her policies, but nevertheless can respect some of her achievements.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to have a grown-up discussion about her legacy, although this week is perhaps not the time for that. Bishop Pete is right to say that it's hard to do that amid all the sycophancy. It's equally hard to do that when the other side is singing "Ding Dong the witch is dead", and it's a predictable shame that Bishop Pete doesn't mention that.

If you want to have a grown up discussion, you have to keep your viscera firmly under control - whether you have visceral love or hate for Lady Thatcher.
 

---

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I haven't seen the BBC TV coverage, not being in the UK. "Sycophantic" wouldn't be a fair description of the BBC web coverage though - if anything, the BBC website was weighted too heavily against her record: an over-recalling of things like the Poll Tax riots, but in general it gave a reasonable coverage of her time in office.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D. Ward:
A public statement on the press response by one of our regular posters here:

Pete Broadbent as reported by Daily Telegraph

Any thoughts ?

---

if Pete ever wants to give up that silly little day job of his, he'd make a pretty good Hellhost.
 

---

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... when the other side is singing "Ding Dong the witch is dead" ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D. Ward:
A public statement on the press response by one of our regular posters here:

Pete Broadbent as reported by Daily Telegraph

Any thoughts ?

---

if Pete ever wants to give up that silly little day job of his, he'd make a pretty good Hellhost.

---

I concur. Pure trouble, that one, and that's pretty much a job requirement.

(Seriously, I don't claim to know all that much about Thatcher, but the conversation is certainly giving me flashbacks to Reagan's three day "No, really! Sainthood!" fest of a funeral.)
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by piglet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... when the other side is singing "Ding Dong the witch is dead" ...

---

According to a report in the Telegraph the BBC is quite likely to play it in its chart show on Sunday, as sales of the recording have sent it into the top 10. FWIW I think that would be in the most appalling bad taste; she had children and grandchildren who are mourning her, and I can't imagine how I'd have felt if people started singing that after my mother died.

Anyway, they'd presumably have to explain why a song from the 1930s was suddenly back in the charts, as the target audience is too young to remember her, which rather begs the question: who was buying the recordings?

Just out of curiosity, why is it that the "do not speak ill of the dead" rule seems to have been waived in her case?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D. Ward:
A public statement on the press response by one of our regular posters here:

Pete Broadbent as reported by Daily Telegraph

Any thoughts ?

---

No. Just this.

 

---

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by piglet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
[qb] ... when the other side is singing "Ding Dong the witch is dead" ...

---

...she had children and grandchildren who are mourning her, and I can't imagine how I'd have felt if people started singing that after my mother died.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:


if Pete ever wants to give up that silly little day job of his, he'd make a pretty good Hellhost.

---

The day job is a lot easier than that!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I don't know about that, I get the feeling once you settled in you'd put Tomb to shame.

Not to mention that wet end RooK.

[ 12. April 2013, 09:32: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I haven't seen the BBC TV coverage, not being in the UK. "Sycophantic" wouldn't be a fair description of the BBC web coverage though - if anything, the BBC website was weighted too heavily against her record: an over-recalling of things like the Poll Tax riots, but in general it gave a reasonable coverage of her time in office.

---

I agree. Take, for example, this screen shot. The BBC saw fit to report prominently concerns over the cost of the funeral that even the left-wing press didn't see fit to report so prominently.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by piglet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
... when the other side is singing "Ding Dong the witch is dead" ...

---

According to a report in the Telegraph the BBC is quite likely to play it in its chart show on Sunday, as sales of the recording have sent it into the top 10. FWIW I think that would be in the most appalling bad taste;

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
An alternative way of looking at it is that not playing something in the charts top 10 during a charts show is the rewriting of history that ken was pointing out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D. Ward:
A public statement on the press response by one of our regular posters here:

Pete Broadbent as reported by Daily Telegraph

Any thoughts ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
An alternative way of looking at it is that not playing something in the charts top 10 during a charts show is the rewriting of history that ken was pointing out.

---

Well, quite - if a song is in the Top 10 then of course it should be played in the Top 10 radio show!

Of course, that doesn't mean there has to be anything during that show that explains why the song is in the Top 10, barring the obvious "because it sold more copies". They never see the need to explain what the latest ear-assaulter from Jessie J or One Direction says about society, do they?

---

quote:

---

originally posted by John D. Ward
Originally posted by John D. Ward: A public statement on the press response by one of our regular posters here:

Pete Broadbent as reported by Daily Telegraph

Any thoughts ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
As for his "support" for Glenda Jackson: the woman deserves to burn in hell if for no other reason than a mental picture of her naked rolling around on the floor of a railway carriage compartment has rendered whole swathes of Tchaikovsky unlistenable for thousands.

---

There's a knack to using hyperbole in a way that makes it amusing or effective, and you ain't got it. How do I know? Because I have lots of friends who agree with me. I rest my case.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Glenda Jackson: the woman deserves to burn in hell if for no other reason than a mental picture of her naked rolling around on the floor of a railway carriage compartment has rendered whole swathes of Tchaikovsky unlistenable for thousands.

---

I resent that remark

Ms jackson's performance in in the film adaptation of D.H. Lawrence's Women in Love was responsible for my first orgasam . Respect to the lady.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:


Ms jackson's performance in in the film adaptation of D.H. Lawrence's Women in Love was responsible for my first orgasam . Respect to the lady.

---

TMI!!
 

---

Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on :
 
No no no! OrgaSAM. Totally different.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Snap Poll: hands up who votes I close this thread right now?

Either before it gets any more weird, or for some of you before it gets any less weird. Or nostalgic.
 

---

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wesley J:
No no no! OrgaSAM. Totally different.

---

I assumed that the rekindled memory caused the hands to quiver while typing.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Quotes file for Anglican't.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok, so I like the Beeb and their Reithian liberalism sits well with me. They're only 'left leaning' if one dresses oneself (ahem!) to the right.

I could show you Facebook rants by some of my more lefty contacts which would make you think that the Beeb was the Daily Mail.

It's all a matter of perspective.
 

---

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 

Please don't close the thread on account of my lapse into TMI Orfeo . I'm not out to derail , just don't like Glenda dis-ed .
Seeing her performance in the HofC the other day , didn't move me in quite the same way but it's nice to see she hasn't lost her passion.

Like I said elsewhere I'm neutral on Thatcher . Clearly a lot of folk have bitterness about her and having her dead will hopefully put a line under that.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
didn't move me in quite the same way

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Journo friends tell me the opinion in the news room is that in Pete they have the best "mad bishop" rent-a-quote to have come from the Church of England since David Jenkins stint at Durham...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
Clearly a lot of folk have bitterness about her and having her dead will hopefully put a line under that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
Clearly a lot of folk have bitterness about her and having her dead will hopefully put a line under that.

---

Not likely, not if the past is of any guide.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

HA HA HA, you're a bunch of sore losers. You haven't achieved much to create the sort of society YOU claim you'd like to see so the best you can do to make a contribution to society is to crow about the death from natural causes of an 87 yo woman. PATHETIC. Yet MT's legacy lives on in the UK, she has the last laugh.

---

The very type of triumphalism , typical of Thatcher herself, that has caused the grave-dancing methinks.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I thought Graham Dow was the one for mad bishop rent-a-quotes ... demons being passed up men's arses during acts of homosexual sex, for instance ... the floods in Cumbria in 2009 being some kind of sign of divine displeasure at the government of Gordon Brown ...

So why didn't the Almighty send a tsunami up the Thames to flood the House of Commons rather than rains to the Lake District to wash away a bridge and the hapless copper who died valiantly trying to stop motorists from using it ...

I hope the retired Bishop had a reasonable explanation for that man's family ...


 

---

Posted by John D. Ward (# 1378) on :
 
Another episcopal view on the issue:

The Bishop of Grantham, as reported by the Daily Telegraph

[ 14. April 2013, 19:37: Message edited by: John D. Ward ]
 

---

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

HA HA HA, you're a bunch of sore losers. You haven't achieved much to create the sort of society YOU claim you'd like to see so the best you can do to make a contribution to society is to crow about the death from natural causes of an 87 yo woman. PATHETIC. Yet MT's legacy lives on in the UK, she has the last laugh.

---

The very type of triumphalism , typical of Thatcher herself, that has caused the grave-dancing methinks.

---

Exactly and it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Just checking to see if she's still dead. I hope someone will be around with garlic - it would be awkward if she rose during the funeral service.
 

---

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
But it would suit the question re "the other place" in the resulting MW report.
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

What? You're saying we ought to have assassinated her?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

What? You're saying we ought to have assassinated her?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

What? You're saying we ought to have assassinated her?

---

You could at least have tried.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
You really, really don't understand what it's all about, do you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

What? You're saying we ought to have assassinated her?

---

Well at least it would have given the parties some sort of justification.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

HA HA HA, you're a bunch of sore losers. You haven't achieved much to create the sort of society YOU claim you'd like to see so the best you can do to make a contribution to society is to crow about the death from natural causes of an 87 yo woman. PATHETIC. Yet MT's legacy lives on in the UK, she has the last laugh.

---

The very type of triumphalism , typical of Thatcher herself, that has caused the grave-dancing methinks.

---

Exactly and it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

What? You're saying we ought to have assassinated her?

---

Well at least it would have given the parties some sort of justification.

---

There's a sort of splendour to that degree of daftness, which it would be a pity to tarnish by trying to apply any kind of logic to it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

What? You're saying we ought to have assassinated her?

---

Well at least it would have given the parties some sort of justification.

---

There's a sort of splendour to that degree of daftness, which it would be a pity to tarnish by trying to apply any kind of logic to it.

---

Oh good grief Firenze, this whole thing is daft, I didn't think that your response was a serious one and I replied in kind. The celebrators do deserve to be mocked though, for crowing about the death of somebody who's had no power for 20 years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
The celebrators do deserve to be mocked though, for crowing about the death of somebody who's had no power for 20 years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Oh, and for all those fuckwits who sing the ding, dong song, here's and alternative view for you...

Wicked

probably closer to reality than the fantasy land in which those who sing that song are living in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by canalto2:
MT closed 154 pits during her reign with 1 miners' strike.
Harold Wilson closed 272 along with 2 miners' strikes, 3 day week, power blackouts and winter of discontent.
I don't recall any dancing at his funeral? Any reason?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Actually the three day week was under Heath (and ended by Wilson) and the Winter of Discontent was under Callaghan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:

Third, any similarities to the funeral of HM The Queen cannot be known, only surmised, since she is still very much alive. However, there are certain things we can take as a given: ... crowned heads of Europe, other heads of state...
Not one of the above is happening for Mrs T. State funeral? dream on.

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quote:

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Among the foreign dignitaries attending are the Kuwaiti Prime Minister Sheikh Jaber Mubark Al-Sabah, the son of the ruler of Kuwait, Sheikh Nasser Sabah Al-Ahmed Al Sabah, and Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti.

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quote:

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Thurible quoted from The Daily Telegraph
Among the foreign dignitaries attending are the Kuwaiti Prime Minister Sheikh Jaber Mubark Al-Sabah, the son of the ruler of Kuwait, Sheikh Nasser Sabah Al-Ahmed Al Sabah, and Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti.

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... none of whom is a Head of State:

Kuwait has an Emir
Italy has a President


 

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Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :
 
I was told yesterday, while at Mortlake Crematorium, that the Blessed Margaret/Wicked Witch [delete whichever is appropriate] is to be cremated there tomorrow.

Now, Mortlake Crematorium is at one end of Townmead Road in Kew, and at the other end, not very far away is the Richmond Borough recycling and waste disposal centre. Turn right you get the crem. Turn left, you get rid of your rubbish.

You are probably seeing where I am going with this...
 

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by canalto2:
MT closed 154 pits during her reign with 1 miners' strike.
Harold Wilson closed 272 along with 2 miners' strikes, 3 day week, power blackouts and winter of discontent.
I don't recall any dancing at his funeral? Any reason?

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by canalto2:
MT closed 154 pits during her reign with 1 miners' strike.
Harold Wilson closed 272 along with 2 miners' strikes, 3 day week, power blackouts and winter of discontent.
I don't recall any dancing at his funeral? Any reason?

---

Also, it's a real shame that the coal in those pits was so much more expensive (thanks to Scargill et al) and not as good a quality as coal mined and imported from abroad.

It was a no brainer... buy expensive and shitty coal from UK pits or shut them down and buy cheaper coal to keep the lights on at a lower price.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

(BTW I once spat in A. Scargill's beer! I was a student at the time working in a Miners Welfare Club in a pit village just outside Chesterfield during the strike. He came in one day with McGahee and crew to "motivate the troops" in the village and surrounding areas. He was a wanker in person. So when I bent down to make it look like I was getting a pint pot from under the bar, I dribbled a little bit of spittle in before jamming it under the pump. Hee!)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I can safely say you know as much about geology as you do about socialism.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
(BTW I once spat in A. Scargill's beer! I was a student at the time working in a Miners Welfare Club in a pit village just outside Chesterfield during the strike. He came in one day with McGahee and crew to "motivate the troops" in the village and surrounding areas. He was a wanker in person. So when I bent down to make it look like I was getting a pint pot from under the bar, I dribbled a little bit of spittle in before jamming it under the pump. Hee!)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I can safely say you know as much about geology as you do about socialism.

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Enlighten us. Are you of the view that the mines were economical and commercially viable?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by alienfromzog:

quote:

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Originally posted by Evangeline:
The celebrators do deserve to be mocked though, for crowing about the death of somebody who's had no power for 20 years.

---

Paradoxically I think she's more powerful than she was two weeks ago.

Because of the right-wing-Thatcher-fetish, her influence is still very much felt in the political debate long after she lost actual power. Whether Thatcherites are worse than Thatcher or not is moot but symbolically she is very powerful. Post death, her symbolism increases and hence I think here more powerful now as a dead former-PM than as an ailing one.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alienfromzog:
As I said a few pages back. Even if you concede that Thatcher polices were right and necessary (I don't) even her most ardent supporters have to admit that some were hurt by what she did. As Karl mentioned some regions still feel those effects today.

I don't think it remotely unreasonable for those hurt by her not to like her. And given that ever since her rise to power and often to a great extent since, she has been lauded by the Right and given idol status. The tone of much of our press is that she is great and anyone who disagrees that she's great is wrong and defective somehow.

Thus, we should not be surprised that hatred is what many feel.

I would not condone dancing on anybody's grave but for me, it is no more sick than the patronising, insulting bollocks coming from some quarters.

AFZ

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
Is it possible though that the rather childish protests feed that power rather than the detract from it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Did anyone hear David Cameron on the radio this morning? He was bloody insufferable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Did anyone hear David Cameron on the radio this morning? He was bloody insufferable.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Did anyone hear David Cameron on the radio this morning? He was bloody insufferable.

---

I had the radio on, but for some reason was asleep, not enjoying a dream about taking a supply lesson in a school under reorganisation, with a particularly obnoxious boy in the class. Is it worth using IPlayer to hear him?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
What is the essential difference between wearing red/turning the back/downloading ding dong/ringing bells and spitting in Scargill's beer?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mad Cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

What? You're saying we ought to have assassinated her?

---

You could at least have tried.

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Forgetting the IRA?

Poor taste, even for Hell.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mad Cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:

quote:

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Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evangeline:
it's the same sort of triumphalism being exhibited by those celebrating Thatcher's death, which is even less warranted because they did nothing to bring it about.

---

What? You're saying we ought to have assassinated her?

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You could at least have tried.

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Forgetting the IRA?

Poor taste, even for Hell.

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OK, I've googled "IRA killed Thatcher" and come up with a blank.
And in the context of the comment (to the effect) that you shouldn't be gloating about her having carked it unless you did something to bring it about, I am frankly at a loss to understand your (obvious) distaste at my (obvious) smart-arsed (hopefully Mousethief Approved) one liner.
What is the problem?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Did anyone hear David Cameron on the radio this morning? He was bloody insufferable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Did anyone hear David Cameron on the radio this morning? He was bloody insufferable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
What is the essential difference between wearing red/turning the back/downloading ding dong/ringing bells and spitting in Scargill's beer?

---

Three of those are legitimate forms of creative non-violent protest and one is a crude unpleasant personal assault?

What do I win?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
What is the essential difference between wearing red/turning the back/downloading ding dong/ringing bells and spitting in Scargill's beer?

---

Three of those are legitimate forms of creative non-violent protest and one is a crude unpleasant personal assault?

---

Three of them are unimaginative, derivative, offensive and uncalled for at a funeral. That's socialists for you, no sense of decorum.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
What is the essential difference between wearing red/turning the back/downloading ding dong/ringing bells and spitting in Scargill's beer?

---

Three of those are legitimate forms of creative non-violent protest and one is a crude unpleasant personal assault?

What do I win?

---

Almost.

Three of them are unimaginative, derivative, offensive and uncalled for at a funeral. That's socialists for you, no sense of decorum.

It seems that the socialists have been taking lessons from the Phelps clan. How ironic.

The other one is mighty satisfying and funny.

Almost as funny as the 1984 Spitting Image sketch of a bluebottle wading in shit before treading over a piece of bread and butter. The bread and butter were then eaten by A. Scargill.

Said bluebottle then returns to Mrs Thatcher's arm (like a trained hawk), and stroking it gently, she says "He'll eat a lot more of that before I've finished with him". Priceless.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Did anyone hear David Cameron on the radio this morning? He was bloody insufferable.

---

What? Even more than usual?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
In case you missed it (the Guardian doesn't appear to have reported it) Lady Thatcher's '£10 million pound funeral' appears to have cost, erm, £1,205,809.

---

I guess The Sun, in their eagerness to take a swipe at Lefties, missed this report published in The Guardian in April, quoting Downing Street's estimate of £3.6 million. The £3.6 million included £2 million in opportunity costs and £1.1 million in "providing additional security and policing for the ceremony and funeral procession". Maybe the estimate of £1,100,000 turned out to be £1,205,809? If so, then I am shocked, shocked that The Guardian didn't treat the difference between the estimate and the actual figure as a Major News Event .
 

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Spot on. She was too divisive a figure to have received a funeral of that kind. End of.

---

But she did

We win... again!
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Says the man whose part in her victory was spitting in Arthur Scargill's pint.
 

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Says the man whose part in her victory was spitting in Arthur Scargill's pint.

---

Once again...
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
deano, you've been away for a couple of weeks or so, now you're back, and you're gloating over what a sad little maggot of a man you are already.
 

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
deano, you've been away for a couple of weeks or so, now you're back, and you're gloating over what a sad little maggot of a man you are already.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
But I'm not gloating over myself. I'm gloating over the fact that Baroness Thatcher DID get a nice state funeral, regardless of the whinging lefties. I like that. I like that a lot.

I like those lefties whinging even more now about the costs, knowing that their rage, their incandescent fury, is totaly impotent!

Losers! [Can we get a smilie with a yellow blob making an L sign on it's forehead please? In the meantime you can all just imagine it]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
When the Revolution comes...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caissa:
When the Revolution comes...

---

What are you going to do? Dig up Mrs Thatcher's ashes, scatter them against a wall, then shoot them?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
In case you missed it (the Guardian doesn't appear to have reported it) Lady Thatcher's '£10 million pound funeral' appears to have cost, erm, £1,205,809.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
(I'll ask you again, by the way, to let us know when you are providing a link to that newspaper.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
(I'll ask you again, by the way, to let us know when you are providing a link to that newspaper.)

---

...and let's hope he continues to ignore you. It should be treated no differently to any other newspaper. Just because you hate it doesn't mean you are going to get special treatment so you can avoid it.

If he does that can we have the same rule for the Grauniad and Windypendant please so I can avoid haveing to expose myself to their wallowing tidewater of heart-bleeding irrelevancies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
Remember that we have to be gentle with deano, folks. He's a Thatcherite in Chesterfield- and so a very lonely man....

---

My commitment to non-violence is the only reason I've not invited him to come on a pub-crawl with me around Bolsover, Stanfree and Clowne to hold forth on his view of 1980s industrial history as it pertains to coal mining.


 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
(I'll ask you again, by the way, to let us know when you are providing a link to that newspaper.)

---

...and let's hope he continues to ignore you. It should be treated no differently to any other newspaper. Just because you hate it doesn't mean you are going to get special treatment so you can avoid it.

If he does that can we have the same rule for the Grauniad and Windypendant please so I can avoid haveing to expose myself to their wallowing tidewater of heart-bleeding irrelevancies.

---

I know that reasoning with you is like trying to explain the concept of forgetting to an over-exited puppy who wants his bone back, but I'll say this anyway:

Unlike the Guardian or the likes of the Mail, the S*n went further than putting forward a political view, they put forward lies regarding the Hillsborough disaster, lies, lies which contributed to the maintenance of the Hillsborough cover-up. They know this themselves, and apologised, but only after it became totally clear last September that their lies were indeed lies. In the meantime those lies caused a lot of pain to bereaved and traumatised people.

Now, unlike you Anglican't doesn't spend all his time here trying to throw shit at others but with that being beyond him, he succeeds only in covering himself. We had had a cordial discussion about that newspaper, and I repeated my request in this thread for a favour on his behalf (or, indeed, of others) because perhaps he had forgotten that conversation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Isn't it strange that of the many Liverpool fans who were there on that day, when you ask them where they were, none of them say "at the back... shoving".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Now, unlike you Anglican't doesn't spend all his time here trying to throw shit at others but with that being beyond him, he succeeds only in covering himself. We had had a cordial discussion about that newspaper, and I repeated my request in this thread for a favour on his behalf (or, indeed, of others) because perhaps he had forgotten that conversation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
(I'll ask you again, by the way, to let us know when you are providing a link to that newspaper.)

---

...and let's hope he continues to ignore you. It should be treated no differently to any other newspaper. Just because you hate it doesn't mean you are going to get special treatment so you can avoid it.

If he does that can we have the same rule for the Grauniad and Windypendant please so I can avoid haveing to expose myself to their wallowing tidewater of heart-bleeding irrelevancies.

---

I know that reasoning with you is like trying to explain the concept of forgetting to an over-exited puppy who wants his bone back, but I'll say this anyway:

Unlike the Guardian or the likes of the Mail, the S*n went further than putting forward a political view, they put forward lies regarding the Hillsborough disaster, lies, lies which contributed to the maintenance of the Hillsborough cover-up. They know this themselves, and apologised, but only after it became totally clear last September that their lies were indeed lies. In the meantime those lies caused a lot of pain to bereaved and traumatised people.

Now, unlike you Anglican't doesn't spend all his time here trying to throw shit at others but with that being beyond him, he succeeds only in covering himself. We had had a cordial discussion about that newspaper, and I repeated my request in this thread for a favour on his behalf (or, indeed, of others) because perhaps he had forgotten that conversation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To be fair, the Heil basically Makes Shit Up as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To be fair, the Heil basically Makes Shit Up as well.

---

Yeah, but they don't do it against anybody Rosa gives a shit about so they're OK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To be fair, the Heil basically Makes Shit Up as well.

---

Yeah, but they don't do it against anybody Rosa gives a shit about so they're OK.

---

I very much doubt that. The Heil usually make shit up to have a go at the left, and last I checked Rosa identified as a lefty.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
To be fair, the Heil basically Makes Shit Up as well.

---

Yeah, but they don't do it against anybody Rosa gives a shit about so they're OK.

---

I very much doubt that. The Heil usually make shit up to have a go at the left, and last I checked Rosa identified as a lefty.

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For "anybody Rosa gives a shit about" in my previous post, please feel free to substitute "Liverpool fans".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Anglican't: I'm asking for a favour. In the meantime I'll remember not to trust any links you provide.

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Doesn't the web address pop up when you hover the cursor over a link, meaning you can quickly and easily check where a link is pointing? That's what happens for me...
 

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Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Anglican't: I'm asking for a favour. In the meantime I'll remember not to trust any links you provide.

---

Doesn't the web address pop up when you hover the cursor over a link, meaning you can quickly and easily check where a link is pointing? That's what happens for me...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Why in the name of fuck would I do that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:
That happens to me on some websites, but not this one. But then again I'm using a Mac and that might alter things?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
they put forward lies

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To be honest if this is your criteria for having to announce the media source you are linking to, all the newspapers need to be named and if you don't believe that, then you are just the left-leaning, inward looking, bigot that you are coming across as...
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Indeed; I'm not quite sure why the rest of us are obliged to subscribe to a vendetta of a particular Shipmate I can't seem to find that one in the Ten Commandments.
 

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Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
It's not a vendetta, it's a boycott. I participate too, in the sense that I will not hand over money for a copy the newspaper in question. Maybe we should all specify what a webiste is when posting a link (actually, I'd hate to see it as a rule, but maybe it's best practice) but I suppose that's a discussion for the Styx.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Yeah, because I love the fucking Mail, don't I? There's no point discussing such matters with people preoccupied with straw men.

I was clear in saying that I was asking for a favour, not a rule.

Oh, I'm also using a Mac and also don't see the links.
 

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Yeah, because I love the fucking Mail, don't I? There's no point discussing such matters with people preoccupied with straw men.

I was clear in saying that I was asking for a favour, not a rule.

Oh, I'm also using a Mac and also don't see the links.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
You are trolling, aren't you?

Either that, or the shit you cover yourself with really does come from your brain.

---

Oh, here we go, ignore Heysel, ignore the years of abuse about Munich and go for the easy "trolling" way out.

It isn't trolling if it's true. Do you honestly think that everyone loves scousers? Do you honestly think that everyone was "grief-stricken" at Hilsbrough? There's a real world out there, you might like to visit it sometime.

You can start by going to John Lennon Airport, which would be appropriate because it's the first place he went when he'd got enough money to push off somewhere nicer.
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
No-one's claiming anyone's an angel. Just that people dying at a football ground is a Bad Thing and telling lies about those people to cast it as their fault and divert the blame from others who should bear some of it is also a Bad Thing.

Your posts read as if you look on the Hillsborough dead and say "Good. I hated the scouser bastards." - in which case fuck off out of claiming to belong to Christianity.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I'm a Man Utd fan, but to continue to blame the Liverpool fans for Hillsborough is bizarre, after all the recent revelations.

I do care about Liverpool fans actually, and Arsenal fans, and so on, and I know tons of both. Does football give us the license to be absolute barbarians? Count me out of that.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Someone who takes pride in shitting all over himself doesn't need football as an excuse. It comes naturally.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I'm just pointing out that if you are a Man Utd fan, or the fan of any club, this doesn't mean that you have to return hate for hate. I suppose Christianity did have something to say about this as well!
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
As someone born in 1974 who started attending games in the 90s, the hate came from one direction. In any case, this excellent article by a Man Utd fan actually links Man Utd fans' songs and lies about Hillsborough with Thatcher, in that while both cities got fucked over by Thatcher, Man Utd fans (including after the "revelations" of last September) have been known to sing "There's only one Maggie Thatcher" when they play us and focus their hatred on us, when in fact, we were in a very similar boat in the 1980s.
 

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Yes, but that's based on the assumption that Man U fans actually come from Manchester. As any fule kno, most of them are from the south of England: real Mancunians are City fans
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Well, my dad was ecumenical - we used to go to see Utd, City and Oldham Athletic. So I still have emotional attachments to all 3, but of course, Oldham are closest to my heart, as they are crap, and Jesus loves a broken pot.
 

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