Thread: The Pond Gap Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :
 
This is really a spin-off from the 'What makes you furious' thread, which seems to have dwindled into two separate scraps about cycling and swearing.
What do other shipmates (from both sides of the pond) think about the use (often misuse) by Britishers of American idioms (usually sport-related) when there are perfectly good British-English expressions for the same concept? I'm thinking of things like 'step up to the plate' 'take the stand' (for 'give evidence'), 'out of left field' (unexpected), 'take a rain check', 'hand down' ('pass', as in judgment or sentence). Do others find this irritating? It's not cricket, IMO!
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Linguae mutantur.

(languages change)

[ 29. July 2013, 13:44: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Well, it's the way in which languages and dialects have always interacted, and they always will. The French Academy tries to stop it, by banning Franglais, or words like 'Walkman', but I don't think it works. Language is a dynamic and rude business.

I was married to an American, so I can never remember which is which now.
 
Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 
Back to t'other scrap, about two peoples divided by a common language.

Misuse of US expressions by Brits? Haven't seen many. Misuse of Brit expressions by Merkans? Maybe I do this, and don't know; otherwise haven't seen it much here.

The one thing that does irk me is the apparently different rules in Brit English and US English for punctuating quotes. Brit shipmates seem consistently to put end punctuation outside the quote marks; this Merkan was taught to put end punctuation inside the quote marks.
 
Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 
The examples cited don't bother me at all. But 'touch base' does (is it a baseball phrase?). I think anyone in Britain who uses 'touch base' in a non-ironic way should be taken out and shot. We'd probably lose large swathes of Britain's business community, with the consequential economic decline, but I reckon it'd be a price worth paying.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I'm much more bothered by shite like "by close of play", "blue sky thinking", "leveraging core competencies", "harnessing key synergies", "providing world-class customer focused solutions" and so on and so [Projectile]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Another interesting aspect of this, which I used to be interested in when I taught linguistics, is the vocabulary which is now American, but was English. For example, words like 'bub' and 'trash' and 'fall' (autumn) seem to exist in English English until about 1800, or so.

So you have a strange export/import business, where a word presumably was carried across the Atlantic, and then returns back to the UK, where it has died out in the meantime.

I think 'I guess that ...' is found in Shakespeare, but can't remember the ref. Oh, here it is.

'Not all together; better far, I guess,
That we do make our entrance several ways.' Henry VI.

[ 29. July 2013, 13:57: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Yes, terms like 'I guess' and 'I got me' and 'gotten' used to be standard English at one time - there are examples in Shakespeare and Chaucer and indeed, still some echoes in certain regional accents and dialects.

The basic rule of thumb is that the further north and west you go - ie. the West of Scotland and Ulster, the English West Country (Dorset down to Devon and Cornwall) the more likely you are to find similarities with English as it was spoken on both sides of the Atlantic in the 17th and 18th centuries.

I've often wondered how long it would have taken the Colonists to develop a distinctive accent (or accents). My guess would be that there wasn't that much difference by the time of the American Revolution, but I might be wrong.

Accents can develop very quickly.

Certainly in New Zealand, linguists have concluded through computer modelling that it took no more than 70 years for a distinctive accent to develop among the progeny of the first settlers - but that was a process speeded up by the remoteness of the country as well as the remoteness of individual settlements.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
And the short vowels in NZ are shifting even faster than the long vowels did in the GVS in English. I gather that over there one cooks food in a pen, writes with a pin and holds things together with a pun.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
The famous NZ 'fush and chups'...
To the expressions in your earlier posting, Karl, may I add 'going forward'? It usually means absolutely nothing and I am amazed that any person with any sense of the absurd could use it with a straight face. Then again, it is usually IME used by people in HR, corporate planning, and so on, who could not do their jobs if they had any sense of the absurd, however vestigial.

[ 29. July 2013, 14:44: Message edited by: Albertus ]
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
Americanisms. Definately a cause of much irritation. One I dislike in particular: "How are you?" "I'm good." Apart from being an Americanism it's just poor English.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
[Killing me]
The linguistic sins at home are greater than the imports. But, easier to fix the neighbor than ourselves, I suppose.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Although in some English dialects, 'I'm not feeling too good' still exists, but it's a negative form. I'm not sure if they would say 'I'm feeling good now'. Also, 'I'm not feeling too clever', meaning ill.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
Bugger me, AO, I knew there must be something we would agree on, and this is it. I want to scream every time I hear it. Let us put aside our differences and form the League for the Prevention of the Replacement of Adverbs by Adjectives.

Also 'can I get' as in (from customer in bakery) 'Can I get one of those cakes, please?': if I hear this I'm willing the assistant to say 'No, but I will get one for you'.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Bugger me, AO, I knew there must be something we would agree on, and this is it. I want to scream every time I hear it. Let us put aside our differences and form the League for the Prevention of the Replacement of Adverbs by Adjectives.

No, let's not. It's a nice flexible feature of the English language.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[Killing me]
The linguistic sins at home are greater than the imports. But, easier to fix the neighbor than ourselves, I suppose.

The narcissism of small differences? (Freud).
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
I grew up with fall and sidewalk as Dorset dialect words, and bub is familiar too. Not totally surprising with the Mayflower leaving from Plymouth.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I grew up with fall and sidewalk as Dorset dialect words, and bub is familiar too. Not totally surprising with the Mayflower leaving from Plymouth.

Oh, brilliant. Words like this are always cited in historical linguistics as export/import words, but it's fantastic to find evidence of them still being used in England. My Yorkshire grandparents still used 'thou' and 'thee', and I treasure that memory.

It's amazing how many Americanisms, which are now disapproved of, were English - 'gotten' of course, as in ill-gotten. But in Yorks, I think 'getten' survived. 'Tha's getten 'ead-wark?' (Have you got a head-ache?).

[ 29. July 2013, 15:06: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Bugger me, AO, I knew there must be something we would agree on, and this is it. I want to scream every time I hear it. Let us put aside our differences and form the League for the Prevention of the Replacement of Adverbs by Adjectives.

Also 'can I get' as in (from customer in bakery) 'Can I get one of those cakes, please?': if I hear this I'm willing the assistant to say 'No, but I will get one for you'.

The end is surely nigh now that we agree on something. Yes, we an alliance.
 
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :
 
There are Americanisms I like. This will upset some but I'm happy with "I'm conflicted" and others which give a shorter, pithier form to sentences.

We've got enough problems in the UK or our own making. Not long ago I heard a BBC reporter say "It's literally raining cats and dogs" and now find 'literally' appears as a synonym for 'figuratively' in the OED (as well, presumably, as an antonym).

But I really hate 'at all' in the sense of "Are you paying with a card at all". I want to say, "Well, maybe a bit".

And where did the now common use of 'so' at the start of sentences come from?

Grumble, grumble.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Bugger me, AO, I knew there must be something we would agree on, and this is it. I want to scream every time I hear it. Let us put aside our differences and form the League for the Prevention of the Replacement of Adverbs by Adjectives.

Also 'can I get' as in (from customer in bakery) 'Can I get one of those cakes, please?': if I hear this I'm willing the assistant to say 'No, but I will get one for you'.

The end is surely nigh now that we agree on something. Yes, we an alliance.
You're on. And I will not be rude to you about anything else again.
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
We've got enough problems in the UK or our own making. Not long ago I heard a BBC reporter say "It's literally raining cats and dogs" and now find 'literally' appears as a synonym for 'figuratively' in the OED (as well, presumably, as an antonym).

BBC English has definately changed over the years. An example would be the use of "an" in front of certain nouns or adjectives beginning with "h", such as "hotel" (pronounced "otel") or "historical". "An" would always be used when I was a child nut it's use has now been dropped.

[ 29. July 2013, 15:15: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Wow, language changes, shock, horror! Wow, different languages and dialects interact and influence each other, double shock horror!
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Speaking as an American, I do find it somewhat irritating when I have to pause to figure out what a British expression means. I also find it disconcerting to read your spelling. [Biased]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
There are Americanisms I like. This will upset some but I'm happy with "I'm conflicted" and others which give a shorter, pithier form to sentences.

We've got enough problems in the UK or our own making. Not long ago I heard a BBC reporter say "It's literally raining cats and dogs" and now find 'literally' appears as a synonym for 'figuratively' in the OED (as well, presumably, as an antonym).

But I really hate 'at all' in the sense of "Are you paying with a card at all". I want to say, "Well, maybe a bit".

And where did the now common use of 'so' at the start of sentences come from?

Grumble, grumble.

Yes, I take that point. I suppose I grumble about people who grumble about language change. When I studied linguistics, prescriptivism was the absolute no-no, since the fact that languages are changing all the time, and not mainly under our control, was a central idea. Of course, we are influenced by American English, just as we have been influenced by French, German, Italian, Indian languages, Latin, Greek, and so on.

None the less, I take your point about grumbling. We all need to have something to grumble about, and being conservative about something is probably a good thing.
 
Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
I don't think there is a British English expression which quite matches 'step up to the plate'. I'm happy using Americanisms: I use 'I guess' a lot. I blame the Ship. I'm something of a linguistic chameleon - I think, it's sort-of the tail-end of a family talent for language learning which I haven't otherwise inherited.

As for being irritated - well, tastes differ. I find made-in-Chelsea-isms far more irritating, but I don't regard my irritation as an indication of anything other than grumpy-old-womanness. It's not a sign of superiority in taste IMHO.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I guess that 'I say, my dear old thing' is quite English, isn't it? If you listen to cricket on the radio, it will be very familiar. Also phrases like 'old bean', but they are used often ironically today.
 
Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
BBC English has definately changed over the years. An example would be the use of "an" in front of certain nouns or adjectives beginning with "h", such as "hotel" (pronounced "otel") or "historical". "An" would always be used when I was a child nut it's use has now been dropped.

Definately, as you say, but in the opposite direction. An historical was a great rarity years ago, because very few people have ever pronounced hotel as 'otel' or history as 'istory'. Those that did so pronounce them (in fact the only person I remember doing this was the supercilious and self-regarding Malcolm Muggeridge, with his lazy upper class Oxford drawl) of course used an, just I use it in front of hour or honour.

But these days you hear and read an historical, an heritage, an herbalist all over the place, and it's from people who pronounce the h. It's an huge upset.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I think Churchill used to say 'an 'otel', and it was very posh. Died out, now, I would think, for posh people, but of course, very common in regional accents, which drop the /h/. Some dialects seem to almost drop the 'a' altogether - 'Ya goin' to 'otel?' is found in London/estuary English, and probably elsewhere.

[ 29. July 2013, 17:10: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
Where I was born a horse was an 'orse.
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Americanisms. Definately a cause of much irritation. One I dislike in particular: "How are you?" "I'm good." Apart from being an Americanism it's just poor English.

Guilty as charged. But a comeback could be "You're good at what exactly?" [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Americanisms. Definately a cause of much irritation. One I dislike in particular: "How are you?" "I'm good." Apart from being an Americanism it's just poor English.

Guilty as charged. But a comeback could be "You're good at what exactly?" [Big Grin]
Aye, I've often thought of doing that. Anither could be "Oh, you're a good boy/girl are you?"
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Gramps -

Speaking as Briton, I do find it somewhat irritating when I have to pause to figure out what an American expression means. I also find it disconcerting to read your spelling.

[Razz]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
BBC English has definately changed over the years. ...

Definately, as you say, but in the opposite direction.
No, it has definitely changed.

And not for the better. I was appalled to read "he was sat there" in a BBC news article recently. And there have been other grammatical solecisms like "me and my wife have..." or listing a couple of nouns, then using a singular verb after them.

The older I get the less tolerance I find I have for this sort of thing.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I'd better not read this thread. The spectacle of so many Luddites will give me apoplexy.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
And not for the better. I was appalled to read "he was sat there" in a BBC news article recently. And there have been other grammatical solecisms like "me and my wife have..." or listing a couple of nouns, then using a singular verb after them.

Those are all part of normal spoken English for millions of people (including me). And anyway, minor differences in usage cause no trouble to anyone. We all understand what the speaker means, so what's the problem? Not worth worrying about.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
It's snobbery, isn't it?
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
And not for the better. I was appalled to read "he was sat there" in a BBC news article recently. And there have been other grammatical solecisms like "me and my wife have..." or listing a couple of nouns, then using a singular verb after them.

Those are all part of normal spoken English for millions of people (including me). And anyway, minor differences in usage cause no trouble to anyone. We all understand what the speaker means, so what's the problem? Not worth worrying about.
Not in everyday speech, perhaps. One would expect a BBC reporter to get it right though. You know, someone who writes or speaks for a living.
 
Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
Re "he was sat there": presumably the implication is that the person should have said "he was sitting there", but there are circumstances when the former might be acceptable. Consider this, for example:
quote:
I tell you, I saw him clear as day. He was sat right there - on that seat there - and then he just ... vanished.

 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Yes, 'he was sat right there' sounds OK to me.

But snobbery intervenes at this point, and the idea of 'correctness'.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
BBC English has definately changed over the years. An example would be the use of "an" in front of certain nouns or adjectives beginning with "h", such as "hotel" (pronounced "otel") or "historical". "An" would always be used when I was a child nut it's use has now been dropped.

Pronunciation changes as one travels through any one,city, why should your predilection have precedence?
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's amazing how many Americanisms, which are now disapproved of, were English

True of some spellings as well.
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
We've got enough problems in the UK or our own making. Not long ago I heard a BBC reporter say "It's literally raining cats and dogs" and now find 'literally' appears as a synonym for 'figuratively' in the OED (as well, presumably, as an antonym).

For this, I will join your grumbling. It is an ignorant misuse. Yes, languages evolve and meanings can be reversed, but I do not have to like it. sooo.. GET. OFF. MY. LAWN!

Back to serious for a moment, How should I speak? As does my mother? Or my father? Where I was born? Where I live now? Or perhaps the localities in which I have had any significant time of residence? As we travel, so does our language. This can be beautiful and it can be ugly. But it is reality either way.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Not in everyday speech, perhaps. One would expect a BBC reporter to get it right though. You know, someone who writes or speaks for a living.

Quite. Anyone who writes, edits or speaks English for a living ought to get this sort of thing right.

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Re "he was sat there": presumably the implication is that the person should have said "he was sitting there", but there are circumstances when the former might be acceptable. Consider this, for example:
quote:
I tell you, I saw him clear as day. He was sat right there - on that seat there - and then he just ... vanished.

It just sounds wrong, and it jars, in any situation. It's a relatively modern usage I think? I never heard it before the late 80s.

Besides, "he was laid there" is clearly passive tense, but it's the same construction as "he was sat there".
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I grew up with fall and sidewalk as Dorset dialect words, and bub is familiar too. Not totally surprising with the Mayflower leaving from Plymouth.

Yes but the Pilgrim Fathers were from Scrooby Lincolnshire!

Jengie
 
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
que sais-je:
quote:
Not long ago I heard a BBC reporter say "It's literally raining cats and dogs" and now find 'literally' appears as a synonym for 'figuratively' in the OED (as well, presumably, as an antonym).
I've never figured out why people use "literally" when referring to something clearly figurative anyway- especially a common folk metaphor. The metaphor itself is there to amplify "rain". It don't need no stinkin' "literally".

Dorks. [Disappointed]
 
Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Re "he was sat there": presumably the implication is that the person should have said "he was sitting there", but there are circumstances when the former might be acceptable. ...

It just sounds wrong, and it jars, in any situation. It's a relatively modern usage I think? I never heard it before the late 80s.

Besides, "he was laid there" is clearly passive tense, but it's the same construction as "he was sat there".

It may sound wrong to you, but it doesn't always sound wrong to me and our opinions count for naught anyway, though I agree that somebody being 'sat' usually implies a passive, as in: "She sat him down and fed him tea and cake.'
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Only 40% of the travellers on the Mayflower, 56% of the family groupings, came from Scrooby. There were several pick up points, London (Rotherhithe has a church and pub with strong links - timbers from the ship and the captain was local) Harwich, Southampton and Plymouth.

I had to dig, because I knew there were links from the West Country. Other than through the ships leaving Bristol and Plymouth trading (slave trading, lots of slavery money in Bristol too, and the area around), there was also Judge Jeffreys and his sentences of transportation, particularly after the Bloody Assizes.
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
There's an example of internet jargon that I find a bit ugly. If someone posts a message and someone agrees with it, they'll respond with: 'This'. I've seen it on this website. When did it first appear?

Another new one I don't like too much: 'My bad'.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Good grief, Svitlana, you have chastened me by finding two examples which arouse my ire, and here I am complaining about people complaining about language.

Yes, 'This.' irritates me. It sounds very complacent and pompous. I am after all, a language snob. Mea culpa.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Svitlana,,
My bad is not exactly new.

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Good grief, Svitlana, you have chastened me by finding two examples which arouse my ire, and here I am complaining about people complaining about language.

Yes, 'This.' irritates me. It sounds very complacent and pompous. I am after all, a language snob. Mea culpa.

Very funny that.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
My great-grandfather, who kept a pub in Lamberhurst (pronouced Lambrurst in Sussex) referred to himself as "an 'otelier". Not posh. My grandmother said that her MinL, his daughter, used to pour tea as if she were trying to get a head on it. ie, starting with the pot close to the cup, then lifting it up and lowering again. Not posh.

Re: spelling - we didn't change ours just to be different, so I think it is not for the adherents of he who did to comment adversely about it. I'm not bothered about converting - my brain does assume that spellings like sulfur are scientific, and gets confused when the subject isn't, but no probs. I do think it's a bit bad when children's books by British writers are published with American spelling and terminology. (Diana Wynne Jones' "Archer's Goon" original edition had sidewalk, trunk, tire, fender and something instead of tarmac, not to mention the magic disappearing "u"s and doubled letters, but I think they changed it after the TV version. Not helpful when I wanted to put the book in the classroom.)
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
I've reacted so badly to North Americanisms that when I am home in the UK people tell me that nobody speaks like that any more - I've been left behind (which my sister equates to being a right arse). My wife is American, and our grandchildren are, by definition due to their places of birth, Yankees. I do have a personal problem with assimilation.

The thing that gets my goat unbearably - and thank you for the opportunity to vent it - is American translations of British books. The American publishers go to great lengths to alter the spellings, making the author look like an idiot, and often wrecking a perfectly good book. This is clearly often done by computer and clearly not checked, ending up with gobbledegook that doesn't make sense on either side of the Atlantic. For Heaven's sake, can't they understand that the language is part of the book? Can you imagine Mark Twain rendered into Oxford English? Do British publishers ever mutilate American books like that? Pshaugghhh! A bunch of semi-literate morons.
 
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Discussions of differences between countries are Heavenly material. Headed up!

Gwai
Purg Host

[ 29. July 2013, 20:55: Message edited by: Gwai ]
 
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The examples cited don't bother me at all. But 'touch base' does (is it a baseball phrase?). I think anyone in Britain who uses 'touch base' in a non-ironic way should be taken out and shot. We'd probably lose large swathes of Britain's business community, with the consequential economic decline, but I reckon it'd be a price worth paying.

I had always assumed that was a British expression from playing rounders. Most British kids by the age of 9 will have at least one heated debate as to whether someone "touched base" surely?
 
Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
I don't think there is a British English expression which quite matches 'step up to the plate'.

Step up to the wicket? Requires just as much fortitude, and perhaps rather more patience. Could be a bit problematic, though, because of course 'stepping up to the wicket' when used in actual cricket commentary, tends to refer to the keeper, not the batsman. Oh well.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Those who refer to North Americanisms as if there was a standard usage on this continent. [Disappointed]

Any more of that and I'll have to lay down on the Chesterfield.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
My favourite response to 'I'm good' is 'That's for Father Christmas to decide'.

As for sporting metaphors, I have never understood why feeling a bit below par is a good thing. I know next to nothing about golf, but I do know that it is desirable to be below par!
 
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Svitlana,,
My bad is not exactly new.


But the point is that it's new to us here in Old Blighty! (By the way, I don't know where you live. If you've been saying 'My bad' in a Cockney, Brummie or Geordie accent (etc.) since 1970 then I have to take off my hat to you.)
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Penny S wrote:

My great-grandfather, who kept a pub in Lamberhurst (pronouced Lambrurst in Sussex) referred to himself as "an 'otelier". Not posh. My grandmother said that her MinL, his daughter, used to pour tea as if she were trying to get a head on it. ie, starting with the pot close to the cup, then lifting it up and lowering again. Not posh.

Hope you did notice I said, 'common in regional accents'. Still is.
 
Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
As for sporting metaphors, I have never understood why feeling a bit below par is a good thing. I know next to nothing about golf, but I do know that it is desirable to be below par!

That's not a sporting metaphor though, 'par' is just a French-derived Middle English word for standard or normal that is in common use regardless of whether golf is involved. Something being below par (for example a person's health, or my broadband connection's performance) is almost always bad.

Golf is the exception, because it is a sport where the aim is to get the lowest score, completing all the holes on the course using fewer* strokes than your opponents (or personal best). Each hole on a golf course has a 'par' number of strokes assigned so that a good performance on that hole would be to complete the hole in fewer strokes than par, an average performance would be equal to par and a poor performance would be over par. The par scores for each hole are added together to give the par score for the whole course.

Scores of a number of strokes under/over par are often talked about because golf courses are not all the same, so a score of 71 might be a poor performance of three over par on one course or a great performance of two under on a different course. To my knowledge, golf is unique even among other sports that work on a 'lowest score wins' basis in using scores under/over par as an official term.


* the exception is playing mini golf with my youngest sister. She enjoys mini golf a lot, so much so that she likes to play the greatest number of shots remotely possible so she can spend more time doing it. It sucks because there's no satisfaction in winning against a person who is playing a completely different game!
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
Point of clarification:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
....Pshaugghhh! A bunch of semi-literate morons.

I was referring to certain publishers; not Americans in general. There are too many of them - and so many nice ones - for generalisations to make any sense.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
American publishers go to great lengths to alter the spellings, making the author look like an idiot, and often wrecking a perfectly good book. This is clearly often done by computer and clearly not checked, ending up with gobbledegook that doesn't make sense on either side of the Atlantic. For Heaven's sake, can't they understand that the language is part of the book? Can you imagine Mark Twain rendered into Oxford English? Do British publishers ever mutilate American books like that? Pshaugghhh! A bunch of semi-literate morons.

But if the publishers didn't do that young U.S. readers might find out that "America" is not the centre/center of the world and everywhere else merely peripheral.
 
Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
One I dislike in particular: "How are you?" "I'm good." Apart from being an Americanism it's just poor English.

Sorry to hear that this has become a U.S. export. To be fair, however, most educated young people use it primarily among their peers and are quite able to say "I'm well" when talking at more formal occasions.

One current phrase I hope does not make it to the UK is "Have a good one" -- an increasingly common replacement for "Have a good day." Each time I hear this I have to bite my tongue to stop myself asking: "A good what?"

I hope this hasn't been mentioned before, but one often hears in the U.S. a remarkable way of dismissing what someone else has just said, as in:

-- "I think you may be wrong about the weather forecast."

-- "Whatever."


Translation: "I don't care what you think." Or, to use another Americanism, "I could care less."
 
Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
One I dislike in particular: "How are you?" "I'm good." Apart from being an Americanism it's just poor English.

Sorry to hear that this has become a U.S. export. To be fair, however, most educated young people use it primarily among their peers and are quite able to say "No thank you," "I've had enough," or "I'm well" at more formal occasions.

One current phrase I hope does not make it to the UK is "Have a good one" -- an increasingly common replacement for "Have a good day." (This is especially true of employees in shops.) Each time I hear it I have to bite my tongue to stop myself asking: "A good what?"

I hope this hasn't been mentioned before, but one often hears in the U.S. a remarkable way of dismissing what someone else has just said, as in:

-- "I think you may be wrong about the weather forecast."

-- "Whatever."


Translation: "I don't care what you think." Or, to use another Americanism, "I could care less."


 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Svitlana,,
My bad is not exactly new.


But the point is that it's new to us here in Old Blighty! (By the way, I don't know where you live. If you've been saying 'My bad' in a Cockney, Brummie or Geordie accent (etc.) since 1970 then I have to take off my hat to you.)
I do not know when it took the trans-Atlantic voyage.* AFAIK, you are correct. However, given how often definitive statements regarding language end up wrong, I'll make no wager on it.

*Had no inkling before asking my mate, Google.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The UK has acquired Have a good one have had for a while, I can even hear someone saying it in my head now. And Whatever is common currency.
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Missed the edit window by a mile ... meant to say I didn't understand why 'below par' was a bad thing, not a good thing!

I have heard 'My bad' in the UK since the 90s - think it was picked up from Buffy?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I think 'whatever' in that sense has now been so long established in the UK that it is now transitioning to a usage which old geezers like me use, in the vain hope of looking cool, while the cool dudes no longer use it out of scorn, and use something else. What would that be? I am desperate to know!

[ 30. July 2013, 08:25: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
I haven't heard a teenager say 'Whatever!' for years - I link it with The Catherine Tate Show and Little Britain. Checking the Urban Dictionary there are more recent usages of 'whatever' than for 'That's lo-ong', which is what I hear in the same contexts currently.
 
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
I hope this hasn't been mentioned before, but one often hears in the U.S. a remarkable way of dismissing what someone else has just said, as in:

-- "I think you may be wrong about the weather forecast."

-- "Whatever."


Translation: "I don't care what you think." Or, to use another Americanism, "I could care less."

The "Whatever" dismissal is common in Britain too - I hadn't particularly registered it as a North American import.

"I could care less" is an Americanism that I do find odd. The UK English expression "I couldn't care less" is perfectly logical meaning "I care so little about this that it is not possible that I could care less." But the American expression implies that I do care, since it is possible for me to care less than I currently care about it. [Confused]
 
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :
 
I was cheered up while driving back from the hospital yesterday, when an SUV of the most obese kind, bearing the vanity licence plate, "WHATEVER", drifted across two lanes in front of us without signalling, and finally made a right exit. It would have taken a better man than me not to laugh when we saw the driver was a relaxed looking blonde...
 
Posted by basso (# 4228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
The "Whatever" dismissal is common in Britain too - I hadn't particularly registered it as a North American import.


Longtime shipmates may remember a Spiffyism that still cracks me up:

"What to the power of ever"

When a catchphrase gets dissed like that, it's clearly past its sell-by date. (To recall a Briticism that annoys many on this side of the pond.)
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Penny S wrote:

My great-grandfather, who kept a pub in Lamberhurst (pronouced Lambrurst in Sussex) referred to himself as "an 'otelier". Not posh. My grandmother said that her MinL, his daughter, used to pour tea as if she were trying to get a head on it. ie, starting with the pot close to the cup, then lifting it up and lowering again. Not posh.

Hope you did notice I said, 'common in regional accents'. Still is.

Grovels - missed it. Sorry. (Mind you, this would have been back at the turn of the last century, and I only know of it because it was not highly regarded.)

[ 30. July 2013, 13:29: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Being seen as affected, rather than the local regional style, I fancy.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
que sais-je:
quote:
Not long ago I heard a BBC reporter say "It's literally raining cats and dogs" and now find 'literally' appears as a synonym for 'figuratively' in the OED (as well, presumably, as an antonym).
I've never figured out why people use "literally" when referring to something clearly figurative anyway- especially a common folk metaphor. The metaphor itself is there to amplify "rain". It don't need no stinkin' "literally".

Dorks. [Disappointed]

Sadly, this is not new.

In Nicholas Nickleby Mr Popular Sentiment says something to this effect (too idle to look for the exact words): 'Squeers literally feasted his eyes on Smike.'
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:

"I could care less" is an Americanism that I do find odd. The UK English expression "I couldn't care less" is perfectly logical meaning "I care so little about this that it is not possible that I could care less." But the American expression implies that I do care, since it is possible for me to care less than I currently care about it. [Confused] [/QB]

That reminds me of the phrase; 'no love lost between them', which was originally an indicator of great affection, but became the exact opposite. Perhaps these changes begin as irony.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
ISTM, the changes begin as ignorance.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I haven't heard a teenager say 'Whatever!' for years - I link it with The Catherine Tate Show and Little Britain. Checking the Urban Dictionary there are more recent usages of 'whatever' than for 'That's lo-ong', which is what I hear in the same contexts currently.

One of my favourite games is to use language from my 20s to my 20 year old. It makes her cringe. Not that I ever used such language all those years ago; I just dredge up memories of Huggy Bear.

Apparently, trendy, cool, wicked, the word on the street, where it's at etc have the same effect on young people of today as nails on a blackboard.

Highly recommended for a long car journey. [Devil]
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ISTM, the changes begin as ignorance.

I am sorry to hear that.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ISTM, the changes begin as ignorance.

Rather say that we pick up language as infants by hearing it in use and making an educated guess as to what words and phrases mean from context.

It's not entirely surprising, for example, that "beg the question" is now widely interpreted as "raise the question", because it's a lot more obvious why it should mean that than what the pedants insist it must mean and only must mean.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
One current phrase I hope does not make it to the UK is "Have a good one"

It's already arrived here.
 
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Those who refer to North Americanisms as if there was a standard usage on this continent. [Disappointed]

Any more of that and I'll have to lay down on the Chesterfield.

I had a Canadian friend who once said to me 'my parents loved England and the English so much, we even called our settee a chesterfield!' which is so wrong on so many levels. For a start, it's a sofa, or you're definitely non-U... and a chesterfield is a specific sort of sofa, a leather one with buttons and a low back.
 
Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:

"I could care less" is an Americanism that I do find odd. The UK English expression "I couldn't care less" is perfectly logical meaning "I care so little about this that it is not possible that I could care less." But the American expression implies that I do care, since it is possible for me to care less than I currently care about it. [Confused]

The most ridiculous case of this kind of misunderstanding was in the information about a computer keyboard, which was advertised as having "a guarantee worth the paper it's printed on". So not very much then.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
"I could care less" is an Americanism that I do find odd.

Most babbling of illiterate fools is odd.
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
"I could care less" is an Americanism that I do find odd. The UK English expression "I couldn't care less" is perfectly logical meaning "I care so little about this that it is not possible that I could care less." But the American expression implies that I do care, since it is possible for me to care less than I currently care about it. [Confused]

It used to be "I couldn't care less" in the US as well, but in my lifetime it has become for most people "I could care less," I think either because people didn't really hear the "n't" or people didn't consider the logic. Or both, perhaps. I pointed out the illogic of the new phrase to a friend some 20 years younger than me who hadn't ever heard of the original phrase, and her explanation of why "I could care less" makes sense to her was that it means one could care less, but only a very little bit less than one does care.

This made me feel slightly better about it, but I will of course stick with the original.
 
Posted by basso (# 4228) on :
 
The ridicule I got in high school over 40 years ago (ouch!) for saying that I couldn't care less was so sharp that I dropped the phrase in either form from my conversation. Some battles are too painful to fight even if I'm right.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
ISTM, the changes begin as ignorance.

Rather say that we pick up language as infants by hearing it in use and making an educated guess as to what words and phrases mean from context.

Dear Sir, your statement is merely defining the word already used. Though I would remove "educated" from it. At least provisionally.

IMO people hear something, deduce a meaning and rarely bother to quest for further understanding.
The exception which proves the rule being an example.

[ 30. July 2013, 18:41: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Those who refer to North Americanisms as if there was a standard usage on this continent. [Disappointed]

Any more of that and I'll have to lay down on the Chesterfield.

I had a Canadian friend who once said to me 'my parents loved England and the English so much, we even called our settee a chesterfield!' which is so wrong on so many levels. For a start, it's a sofa, or you're definitely non-U... and a chesterfield is a specific sort of sofa, a leather one with buttons and a low back.
That may be so, but our chesterfield was covered in fabric and, in addition, it folded down into a bed. It did, however, have buttons.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Those who refer to North Americanisms as if there was a standard usage on this continent. [Disappointed]

Any more of that and I'll have to lay down on the Chesterfield.

I had a Canadian friend who once said to me 'my parents loved England and the English so much, we even called our settee a chesterfield!' which is so wrong on so many levels. For a start, it's a sofa, or you're definitely non-U... and a chesterfield is a specific sort of sofa, a leather one with buttons and a low back.
That may be so, but our chesterfield was covered in fabric and, in addition, it folded down into a bed. It did, however, have buttons.
And I'll bet you never called it a "settee".

Chesterfield was the general term for the item of furniture in question when I grew up in Western Canada in the 1940s and 50s, though we would have recognized sofa. I'd guess sofa is the more usual term now.

But settee? Whoever called/calls it a "settee". No-one in Canada, so far as I know.

John
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
"Settee" reminds me too much of "suttee" -- and no matter how uncomfortable the thing is, that's not an image that I'd want to encourage.

John
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

The thing that gets my goat unbearably - and thank you for the opportunity to vent it - is American translations of British books.

It's sometimes an amusing game to work out what the original was when you come across something bizarre (like people putting cream in their tea). Daughter had a book set in a girls' school, where the girls are clearly playing netball (wearing bibs with the initials of their positions etc.), except that for the US audience this had been translated as basketball, which meant that large chunks of the rest of the chapter made no sense at all, because basketball is a different game, with different rules.
 
Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
The most ridiculous case of this kind of misunderstanding was in the information about a computer keyboard, which was advertised as having "a guarantee worth the paper it's printed on". So not very much then.

You need to look at it more optimistically - that's better than a guarantee not worth the paper it's printed on.

I don't really care about warranties anyway, I have the Australian Consumer Law which overrides them all.
 
Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
I'll bet you never called it a "settee".

Chesterfield was the general term for the item of furniture in question when I grew up in Western Canada in the 1940s and 50s, though we would have recognized sofa. I'd guess sofa is the more usual term now.

But settee? Whoever called/calls it a "settee".

AFAIK settee and sofa are, or were, interchangeable terms until one or other of them (settee, according to Wikipedia) was declared to be non-U. People took that U/non-U thing far more seriously than Mitford (probably) intended.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I call the couch in the front room a day bed: that was the term Herman Miller used when it was new back in 1959.
 
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :
 
quote:
Daughter had a book set in a girls' school, where the girls are clearly playing netball (wearing bibs with the initials of their positions etc.), except that for the US audience this had been translated as basketball, which meant that large chunks of the rest of the chapter made no sense at all, because basketball is a different game, with different rules.
Not so far fetched really. I was in the school basketball team when in primary school which runs from classes 3-6. We recognised there was a game of similar name but different rules played by men.

What I played was definitely called basketball but is now netball with mostly similar rules to my basketball.

[ 31. July 2013, 11:30: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:

But settee? Whoever called/calls it a "settee".

Those of us who have dinner at mid-day and 'tea' when posh people have dinner. And for whom 'supper', if we have it, is a couple of cream-crackers on the settee in front of the telly, not goulash in the kitchen with a bottle of Rioja.
 
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :
 
It's a sofa, innit?
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:

But settee? Whoever called/calls it a "settee".

Those of us who have dinner at mid-day and 'tea' when posh people have dinner. And for whom 'supper', if we have it, is a couple of cream-crackers on the settee in front of the telly, not goulash in the kitchen with a bottle of Rioja.
Confuses the hell out of our kids that their mother has lunch in the middle of the day whilst I have dinner, and has dinner when I'm having me tea.

But they're still settees regardless of which parent is making reference to them.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
But settee? Whoever called/calls it a "settee".

Those of us who have dinner at mid-day and 'tea' when posh people have dinner. And for whom 'supper', if we have it, is a couple of cream-crackers on the settee in front of the telly, not goulash in the kitchen with a bottle of Rioja.
Actually, eating in the kitchen is a sign that you don’t have/use a dining room [Razz]

We had a piece of furniture which, depending on which member of the family you spoke to, was a sofa, couch or settee.

Here's the Wikipedia guide to U and non-U English. Enjoy.

(Btw, I don’t care if I’m served out of a bowl with a spoon while sitting on the floor, if the food and company are good.)

[ 31. July 2013, 12:05: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Those of us who have dinner at mid-day and 'tea' when posh people have dinner. And for whom 'supper', if we have it, is a couple of cream-crackers on the settee in front of the telly, not goulash in the kitchen with a bottle of Rioja.

Actually, eating in the kitchen is a sign that you don’t have/use a dining room [Razz]

I took the reference to be to the 'kitchen suppers' so popular chez Cameron.

As is often the case hereabouts, we have a room one end of which is kitchen and the other dining room, so the supper/dinner party distinction doesn't really hold.

[ 31. July 2013, 12:22: Message edited by: Firenze ]
 
Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on :
 
(To be fair, most of the Mitfords were fascists, so not sure how much weight to give such unutterable rubbish as "U and non-U" phrases, unless...)

[ 31. July 2013, 12:23: Message edited by: Yam-pk ]
 
Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :
 
I once boycotted a sports equipment shop because of a large poster which said "Some people have got it. Others don't."

Others don't got what?
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Ariel:
quote:
Here's the Wikipedia guide to U and non-U English. Enjoy.
If you worry about whether calling that thing you sit on a sofa or a settee marks you as socially inferior you are most definitely non-U.

We call it a couch. [Devil]
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Yam-pk:
(To be fair, most of the Mitfords were fascists, so not sure how much weight to give such unutterable rubbish as "U and non-U" phrases, unless...)

Nancy voted for Clement Atlee. Dinner for C18 aristocrats was an afternoon meal,and the main meal of the day.

Since my main meal is in the evening - midday was a sandwich when I was at work - I don't see it is pretentious to call the evening meal "dinner".
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Actually, eating in the kitchen is a sign that you don’t have/use a dining room [Razz]

I took the reference to be to the 'kitchen suppers' so popular chez Cameron.


Exactly. Eating in the kitchen is a sign [a] that you are posh enough to have room for a big enough table, and [b] that you are trying to pretend you are not posh by inviting friends for a 'kitchen supper' rather than a dinner party.

But this is more about the cis-pond class gap than trans-pond differences.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
I once boycotted a sports equipment shop because of a large poster which said "Some people have got it. Others don't."

Others don't got what?

As long as it hasn't driven you to mass murder. I've just read an Italian short story (L'assassino by Michele Serra) in which the anti-hero sets out to eliminate shopkeepers who give their businesses trendy names or who speak meaningless commercial gobbledegook.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:

We call it a couch. [Devil]

Hence Lion Couchant, which is heraldic for The cat is on the settee.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
[Big Grin]
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:

We call it a couch. [Devil]

Hence Lion Couchant, which is heraldic for The cat is on the settee.
We could do a whole series of those. I call dibs on Lion rampant: The damned cat scratched the curtains to hell
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
and in the other direction, I'm hoping that "Brilliant" doesn't become common usage in the U.S.

I'm still trying to figure out if "Omigod" is an archaism or British usage.
 
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :
 
I echo what Stercus Tauri said about translation of British books into American.

Don't, oh dear Lord, don't get me started.

But. It is so so ridiculous and infuriating. I think I may have ranted about it on the ship before...
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Lion Passant - change the vowel.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Lion Passant - change the vowel.

In that case, I'd better bag dolphins urinant before anyone else does.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Lion Dormant - The cat appears to be sleeping (but is probably plotting).
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I can't remember if anyone has mentioned 'first base', which might also come from rounders of course. But there's an interesting story here as well, since Jane Austen mentions baseball, around 1797, in 'Northanger Abbey'.

But there has been quite a lot of discussion about whether this really refers to baseball, or possibly to a game called 'stoolball'.

This picture is supposed to be from 1744, but again, may refer to another game.

http://tinyurl.com/o2mcjl4

The other point to make is of course, that none of this is particularly important.
 
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
Not important!!! [Eek!]

Everytime my step-daughter asks if we're having coffee in the lounge I squirm.

Despite being born in the Thames valley she also chose to use diaper (rather than nappy) and informed me she was going to a friend's baby shower [Ultra confused]

I blame if on Friends... [Snigger]

As far as dinner goes: if we eat in the kitchen then we have supper and dinner is in the dining room its dinner; coffee in the sitting room in winter and on the terrace in summer.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

The other point to make is of course, that none of this is particularly important.

What?! Traitor. [Disappointed]
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
We still have tea at 6pm; not with cakes, but a cooked meal. But that's probably (tremulous sob in voice) my home-sickness for the North Country. But my wife, very posh background, Irish earls and so on, has started having a cup of tea with her tea. What? I said to her, would you like bread and butter with that (an ancient Northern custom)?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Actually, ancient reports of baseball seem quite common. A bishop is supposed to have preached against it in 1700; and there is a diary entry in 1755 by a lawyer, describing how his whole family went off to play it.

However, none of these reports are able to explain why the reference is not to a different game such as stoolball, which sounds a bit like French cricket, i.e. protecting a target with your hands or feet. However, stoolball is very old - medieval.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
What happened to parlours? Haven't seen one of those for a while.

We have a sitting room (where the settee and the armchairs live). And a kitchen - where we also eat - and a scullery (I refuse to have truck with 'utility room').
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Sculleries! Ah, it's like a Proustian madeleine.

When I was a kid, we had a dairy, which was Yorks for storage room for butter, etc; and we had an outhouse.
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
In our lower class home a parlour was called a living room. Not that we did much living in it, except when the television was powered up after 1953. We did our living in the large kitchen à la Canadienne. In addition to a large table for 8, we had a sewing corner, a rocking chair, a chalkboard, and lots of room for littles to play. The kitchen table, in early school years, also served as a study centre, but was always cleared at meal times. We had dinner at noon, and a lighter repas at supper.
 
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
That sounds lovely, I'll come clean, and admit that I can't remember if my Canadian friend said 'sofa, 'settee' or 'couch' but the idea that she called it a chesterfield because they wanted to be English was really weird. I made up the settee bit for a little irony... [Razz]

I've never met anyone who has a parlour. Do they exist anymore? I love the idea of calling our utility room a scullery - does yours have a sink in it, Firenze? My nan started her career in service as a scullery maid, aged 13.

My mother was a nanny for upper middle class people, hence my language being wrong for my income/social group. As you can imagine, that was lots of fun at school. [Waterworks]

Then I met a properly middle class girl who called her parents mummy and daddy, ate supper in the evenings and didn't know what a settee was, and she had an even worse time...
 
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm still trying to figure out if "Omigod" is an archaism or British usage.

Definitely not British. The musical version of Legally Blonde (which, in London at least, worked a great deal better than the film IMO) begins with a song called 'Omigod You Guys' and typifies the kind of characters who use that expression constantly.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I love the idea of calling our utility room a scullery - does yours have a sink in it, Firenze? My nan started her career in service as a scullery maid, aged 13.

It does. I think even from the construction of the flat (c 1928) it was meant to be the wet room, since it has a cement floor rather than floorboards. Now of course it has the washing machine and dishwasher, but I imagine it was tubs and mangles back then.
 
Posted by nickel (# 8363) on :
 
sofa, settee, couch, chesterfield = davenport?
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
What happened to parlours?

Can anyone in the current age afford to give up a room for the sole purpose of impressing the neighbours? The parlour was a sitting room in which you did not sit but showed off your best chairs and china in a china cabinet. If you had expensive books then they might be placed in a book shelf.

Jengie

[ 01. August 2013, 20:49: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
My granny's maisonette (Victorian, like a two up two down but all upstairs so the builder only had to build one set of stairs) had a scullery in the protruding bit at the back with a place for a copper and a shaped base for it with a space for a fire underneath. Rather like the counters in Ancient Roman eateries. I never saw it used.

Stoolball is nothing like French cricket the way I played that, with a cricket bat. It has two wickets of white boards at just below head height on stands about 16 yards apart, which are defended using solid wood roundish bats* held in one hand and balls like real tennis balls. Teams of eleven, with two innings per match. It is also, however, NOTHING LIKE REAL MEN'S CRICKET.** It is linear, rather than played in a quadrilateral like baseball and rounders.

According to a paper in Sussex Archeological Collections, Vol 133, 1995, it has a very peculiar recent history, involving a revival by a Major Grantham, who was very friendly with the Japanese embassy staff in the 30s. I am surprised that the writers of Foyle's War managed to avoid the possibilities for a plot.

I found this curious history page which seems to be from the west of the pond looking at practically every reference to any ball game by anyone (St Augustine of Hippo!) anywhere. Protoball and has links to other pages with later dates than 1700.

*If you've ever come across Bat and Trap, the bats are similar.
** Quote from the SAC above - "The idea that cricket had any ancestor, instead of emerging fully formed, is remarkably difficult territory to enter." There are religious parallels to this.

There are a lot of religious references in the history of stoolball anyway - played on Shrove Tuesday by mixed groups without distinction between men and women, gentry or labourers, and after Easter as a foretaste of the resurrected world. And banned by various clerics at various times. Gosh, this is interesting.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
What happened to parlours?


They have specialised ones in The Archers but they are out by the barns and used for milking cows!

I call my living room couch a day bed because that's what Herman Miller called it when they made it more than 50 years ago. The one in the study is technically known as a king-size convertible sofa.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm still trying to figure out if "Omigod" is an archaism or British usage.

Definitely not British. The musical version of Legally Blonde (which, in London at least, worked a great deal better than the film IMO) begins with a song called 'Omigod You Guys' and typifies the kind of characters who use that expression constantly.
In current US usage it is part of teen vocabulary. I once heard an excited girl use it 6 times in two minutes. But I wonder if it was a common mild profanity by the religious in an earlier period. As I recall, I've seen it in "Last Exit to Brooklyn".
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Bat and Trap is only played in Bonfire Country. And Stoolball is almost only played there.

That is, of course, East Sussex and adjacent parts of other counties. Penny S will know the truth of this.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
Our church has a parlor. It has all the pretty chairs and fancy drapes. This is where the bride dresses before her wedding or the family gathers with the pastor before a funeral.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Bat and Trap has been observed in Dartford, Darenth, and Canterbury by me. Not Bonfire, ken (except NW Kent in Victorian times, though there are links between there and Brighton in terms of population movement, from there to Brighton, though). I'm not sure if the pub our school staff used to play in in Dartford still plays, as we stopped going there when it was taken over by a member of the NF.
The Beverlie Hotel at Canterbury, where I first met the game, claims to have invented the game and runs the Canterbury league, and there is also a league around the Medway.
It's a bit further spread than Bonfire, but not much. Definitely further spread than stoolball - though my school in Dartford had played that in the past, as it had a couple of wickets and bats, but they were never used in my time. Only the staff used the school Bat and Trap set. (I donated a set to the school when I left! For the children - I think it works well for the less coordinated, from my experience.)
My grandad, whom I never knew as he died young, ran the Brighton railway staff team, and they used to play on the Steyne

[ 02. August 2013, 09:47: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
According to my book of games* (yes, I know, sad) Bat and Trap records go back to 1570 for Ye Old Beverlie Inn, Canterbury - and the "pub overlooks a green where the very earliest 18th century cricket matches took place". The suggestion is that both cricket and bat and trap were developed from stool ball or club ball. There are Bat and Trap leagues: around Canterbury, the Medway towns, Ash and Ashford.

Baseball was apparently brought back to England (Derby built the Baseball Ground) at the end of the 19th century by some American touring teams. It may have been taken to the States from Wales, where Welsh Baseball is played or based on Tipcat - another ancient game.

* The Guinness Book of Traditional Pub Games (1992)
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Hang on, what about Hambledon and Hesketh Park at Dartford in terms of the ancientry of cricket?

And the Beverlie only opened in the 1740s. There's lots on line about it. This site Ball games history claims the game to be just Kentish (Oh no, it isn't) and to have been dying out by the 1920s (not if there was a league in Brighton it wasn't). The sites about the Kentish game don't seem to know about Sussex.

It looks as if there was revival in both stoolball and bat and trap at about the same time between the wars. My grandad died in 1934.

Given the start of this being about the pond differences, it may amuse the people to the west of the water to know how much disagreement there can be between two adjacent counties on the eastern side.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Here is the lovely quote from Jane Austen, Northanger Abbey, 1797:

"It was not very wonderful that Catherine, who had nothing heroic about her, should prefer cricket, base-ball, riding on horseback, and running about the country at the age of fourteen, to books."

Classic Austen ironic tone there - it was not very wonderful that ...
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
The kit for Cardiff baseball (also played I think in Newport) is distinctive and refelcts the 'mainstream' games aorund here- players wear what is pretty much football kit and the bats seem to be, or to have orignally been, cut down cricket bats. Apparently US servicemen based around here during the War thought the game was rather different to US baseball.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:

It's a bit further spread than Bonfire, but not much.

Ah, but that's due to the sad retreat of Bonfire in the face of Bureaucracy!

quote:

Definitely further spread than stoolball - though my school in Dartford had played that in the past, as it had a couple of wickets and bats, but they were never used in my time.

Stoolball got out a bit as it was taught in schools - probably because some strange Anglo-Catholic-Socialist Folk-Revivalists in the early 20th century thought it was more authentically of the Folk than class-ridden cricket, and better for the Moral Fibre than class-ridden than new-fangled urbanised games like football.

quote:

My grandad, whom I never knew as he died young, ran the Brighton railway staff team, and they used to play on the Steyne

The Brighton Trades Council used to organise a bat-and-trap competition on the Level on Good Friday. Teams got up by scratch on the spot from Labour Party and Trade Union members. Women and kids and oldies mostly. (The more seriously sporty members took part in a long-distance run, ending up in the Labour Club with lots of beer) I played it a couple of times before I started spending that day at church. The pub called the Bat and Ball at the Level had a pub sign showing a game of Bat and trap on the Level.

[ 02. August 2013, 14:17: Message edited by: ken ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Sounds like I got the wrong place for the game, ken. Or the right place but the wrong name. (I was only ever a visitor is my excuse. Flat green bit in the middle all merged together.) And that you know the stuff in the Archaeology book, as well.

The Good Friday connection also seems to connect ball games with Easter, which is what I found while chasing stool ball around the internet. In that case, Shrove Tuesday and the week after Easter. It's good to hear that the custom was still going on in living memory. Do they still do it?

[ 02. August 2013, 17:10: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
That sounds lovely, I'll come clean, and admit that I can't remember if my Canadian friend said 'sofa, 'settee' or 'couch' but the idea that she called it a chesterfield because they wanted to be English was really weird. I made up the settee bit for a little irony... [Razz]

I've never met anyone who has a parlour. Do they exist anymore? I love the idea of calling our utility room a scullery - does yours have a sink in it, Firenze? My nan started her career in service as a scullery maid, aged 13.

My mother was a nanny for upper middle class people, hence my language being wrong for my income/social group. As you can imagine, that was lots of fun at school. [Waterworks]

Then I met a properly middle class girl who called her parents mummy and daddy, ate supper in the evenings and didn't know what a settee was, and she had an even worse time...

We had a scullery in the house I grew up in. It was an extension off the kitchen, and it had a double sink, the cooker, washing machine and fridge, and wall cabinets for storage.

The "kitchen" had more storage units and a large table where the four of us ate most of the time.
 
Posted by Pegasus (# 1966) on :
 
No-one has yet mentioned front room as a name for the room in which one may alternatively sit, live or lounge. I think it is of lower middle class origins, indicative of a house which has only one room at the front, not two or three.

(I live in a flat and both my bedroom and front room are technically front, as both face onto the street. I have helpfully designated the room in which I don't sleep as "the other room".)

[ 02. August 2013, 21:04: Message edited by: Pegasus ]
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Another cross-pond usage I find causes a lot of mental gear grinding is 'yard' for what in Britain we'd call garden. Or grounds, if you live somewhere really posh.

But yards are typically narrow, walled and paved, full of things like sheds and coal bunkers, dustbins and outside privies, clothes lines and rusting bicycles.
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
I've seen yards like that, too, except that they usually aren't paved.


Our "yard" includes several flower gardens, a vegetable garden, a brick patio, and the rest is a grass lawn. The latter two would not normally be included in the American use of the word "garden".
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Whereas a lawn is almost a compulsory component of a garden in the UK. (Not ours, because it's too small and we're too lazy to mow: but most gardens, even a tiny pocket-handkerchief at the front of a terrace house, will have a lawn.)
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Whereas a lawn is almost a compulsory component of a garden in the UK. (Not ours, because it's too small and we're too lazy to mow: but most gardens, even a tiny pocket-handkerchief at the front of a terrace house, will have a lawn.)

Most American houses have lawns too (although I gather in places like Phoenix - basically in the desert - some people have finally decided that watering a load of grass is silly.) It's just that the lawn is found in your yard, where you do yard work.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
I've seen yards like that, too, except that they usually aren't paved.


Our "yard" includes several flower gardens, a vegetable garden, a brick patio, and the rest is a grass lawn. The latter two would not normally be included in the American use of the word "garden".

Sounds like your "garden" is what we would call a "bed". Unless it is like what would be found around a "big house", where the separate gardens would have walls or hedges dividing them from other parts.
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
all these different rooms! even fancy houses up here don't have things like "parlours".

I notice, also, that in european homes (this, mind, is based on a short trip to france 20-mumble years ago, and otherwise, books, TV, movies...etc) there are just so many ROOMS. with walls. and doors between EVERYTHING. and people actually close the doors.* how the heck do you heat a place is you keep closing all the damn doors?! you seem to actually close bedroom doors when you sleep (I never HAD a bedroom door growing up. or even... now) this is bizarre. aside from risking it getting chilly, and making the room dark as death, you're risking the factor of the boogeyman being just outside the door. I'd never be able to sleep.

here, it's kitchen combined with living area, usually one big room. then sleeping quarters of some sort, and if you have a bit of dosh, a bathroom with toilet, shower, etc. (my daughter's previous home didn't even have a door there. which... well, I do like a door when I'm peeing...)

Even the fancy houses. just more bedrooms. maybe a pantry. maybe a closet for laundry. maybe a mudroom. parlour? front room? lounge? are those separate places? how do you heat? who the hell is cleaning all of that unused real estate???

*actually, the door thing seems to apply to the lower 48, too.
 
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
It has a floor, almost always a roof, which is likely supported by posts or columns, and may have railings between the posts. It may be raised several steps above ground, and is attached to one or more exterior walls of a house. In the US this is variously termed porch, veranda (rarely), stoop (if rather small), gallery or piazza -- and there may be other descriptors as well. The differences seem to be mostly regional.
So my question is: what is it called in the UK?
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Verandah, here. Indian word. From my childhood on. I haven't had one since in Canada
 
Posted by hilaryg (# 11690) on :
 
Patio (stone) or deck (wood), neither will have a roof.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Another cross-pond usage I find causes a lot of mental gear grinding is 'yard' for what in Britain we'd call garden. Or grounds, if you live somewhere really posh.

But yards are typically narrow, walled and paved, full of things like sheds and coal bunkers, dustbins and outside privies, clothes lines and rusting bicycles.

Which is what we normally used call it here. Over the last decade or so, "yard" has become less common, at least in real estate agent's talk, and is being replaced by garden.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
how the heck do you heat a place is you keep closing all the damn doors?!

You put the heat source in the room with you, and you close the door to prevent the heat from leaving the room and going wastefully into hallways other rooms you're not using at the moment.

These days, the heat source is usually radiators, and the central heating system circulates hot water to them.

quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
It has a floor, almost always a roof, which is likely supported by posts or columns, and may have railings between the posts. It may be raised several steps above ground, and is attached to one or more exterior walls of a house.

In the UK, a "porch" is a completely enclosed, but probably unheated, relatively small room built between an external door and, well, the outside. It's a good place to store wellies, potatoes and things.

The thing you describe could be a verandah, or possibly a portico, but in general is not an architectural feature commonly found in the UK.

Decks, on the other hand, which mean the same in the UK as in the US, were popularized by TV gardening programmes a couple of decades ago. Patios are the more traditional occupant of that particular niche, and tend to be rather more sympathetic towards typical British architecture.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
Stoop is a New York term, there's apparently a stoop law. I believe the term that comes from the Dutch heritage.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
there are just so many ROOMS. with walls. and doors between EVERYTHING. and people actually close the doors.

Don't you have draughts in North America? Last winter I took to taping up doors in this room - not the one you go in and out by obviously - to try and cut down the knifing blasts of cold air.

Plus, if you haven't got lots of walls, what do you hang the bookshelves on?

And bedrooms need to be cool and dark, or I can't sleep (spent the other week in our hotel room in Sweden futtering every night with a partially torn plasters box in order to cut down the intolerable glare from the aircon control light.)
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
there are just so many ROOMS. with walls. and doors between EVERYTHING. and people actually close the doors.

Don't you have draughts in North America? Last winter I took to taping up doors in this room - not the one you go in and out by obviously - to try and cut down the knifing blasts of cold air.

Plus, if you haven't got lots of walls, what do you hang the bookshelves on?

And bedrooms need to be cool and dark, or I can't sleep (spent the other week in our hotel room in Sweden futtering every night with a partially torn plasters box in order to cut down the intolerable glare from the aircon control light.)

Draught excluders are better than tape for doors. And in extremis when single glazed, seal the outside of opening windows with putty, as the Russians do (did?) in winter. Unseal in spring.

I am too idle to do any of this, of course. I just wear thermals, jumpers, extra socks etc plus dressing gown from October to about mid June. Sometimes a blanket as well.

V low income; I heat my house just enough to prevent the pipes from freezing, and dress for winter. My neighbours heat theirs enough to wear tshirts indoors in January.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Draught excluders are better than tape for doors.

Have that as well. But the doors were made of green timber and are not a good fit to the frames. And you're right - it's down to how much you are prepared to spend on heating. I too spend winters looking like an ambulant branch of Oxfam.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I disagree on the porches always being enclosed. In many houses of Victorian or early 20th century age it is a covered space outside the front door which is useful for allowing door unlocking without getting sodden from rain, but not for keeping wellies and walking sticks. It may be a projection in front of the building, or a recess into the hall space behind the building line. Many people have enclosed these spaces more recently. The sort of terrace houses in which the front door opened into the front room (no chance of a parlour there) have often had a small porch built onto them, either enclosed or not. Its function is as a protection of the entrance to the house, not as a leisure space.

I had a book as a child set in South Africa, and learned the word stoep of a space outside the house for sitting on, so I assume the US stoop is of the same Dutch origin. We had some farming friends whose home, I came gradually to realise, was built on colonial lines, and had a feature to which that description could apply. It was a paved, but covered, area on ground level, with a view across the countryside, and bounded at the ends by projections of the side walls, which I would think would mark it out as distinct from a patio. I would expect a verandah to be raised above ground level.

The same farmhouse had a large open porch, almost like a room, with an inner lobby beyond the door, and a further door into the kitchen. Outdoor stuff which did not need to be secure was in the outer part. The inner space would have boots and outer clothes, but also access to a loo (there was alaso an indoor one), so that there was no need to remove boots to use it.

A 1930s semidetached house we had in Folkestone had a recessed porch with no outer door at the front door. The back door had a small covered passage outside it with access to a coal store and an outside loo (for use when gardening, not the only one). This feature has been removed by later occupants extending the kitchen - they have also removed the walk-in larder.

A detached house in Dover had an enclosed porch at the front door, in an angle between the front room and a part of the house further back, with enough room for a few people to stand in, and an inner door to the hall. At the back door was a passage between the back of the garage with access to that, and on the other side a coal store and an outside loo. This has been roofed over. Not what I would call a porch.

Are houses in the parts of the US which have very cold winters open plan? Seems very energy spendthrift.

Odd thing. I am alone in the house. I close the bedroom door at night. But I can have a snooze on the bed in the daytime and leave the door open - possibly because I'm more likely to hear the doorbell that way, but I've never thought it out consciously.
 
Posted by Signaller (# 17495) on :
 
Originally posted by GeeDee:
quote:
Over the last decade or so, "yard" has become less common, at least in real estate agent's talk, and is being replaced by garden.
[tangent]

Interesting usage. In the UK we would say 'estate agent', in the USA they use 'realtor'; has Australia gone for a compromise?

[/tangent]
 
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And bedrooms need to be cool and dark, or I can't sleep (spent the other week in our hotel room in Sweden futtering every night with a partially torn plasters box in order to cut down the intolerable glare from the aircon control light.)

I travel with a roll of electrical insulating tape - a small piece blocks the light from most electronic gizmos that can't be otherwise hidden.
 
Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :
 
In England, 'I'll take a rain check on that' probably means 'I'll have a look outside and see if it's (still) raining'.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
you seem to actually close bedroom doors when you sleep (I never HAD a bedroom door growing up. or even... now) this is bizarre. aside from risking it getting chilly, and making the room dark as death, you're risking the factor of the boogeyman being just outside the door. I'd never be able to sleep.

Hallelujah for doors! I shut my bedroom door and have all the little lights covered up and the window A/C on high. I like dark and cold for sleeping. Dark is pretty easy with the black out drapes. Cold not so much, especially in August.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Are houses in the parts of the US which have very cold winters open plan? Seems very energy spendthrift.
Homes in Canada and the northern US states are insulated to a much higher degree than is typical in the UK. An uninsulated internal partition (as contractors here call inside walls, walls for them face the outside) won't do much against a 10 or 20 degree temperature drop, nor will a space heater which are in general inefficient. Hence the whole interior is heated and maintained at that temperature through insulation.

Home heating is by and large central forced air gas or forced air electric, sometimes electric baseboards.

Hot water systems as found in the UK can't efficiently handle the 20 to thirty degree temperature gradient over a typical heating season. Continental climates are much more variable and North America is typically colder than Europe is for the same latitude.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
Roofed porches in the northern United States were very popular before the invention of air conditioning. Many areas were most comfortable in the summer only outside in the shade on the porch.

I've never understood the modern Seattle passion for decks given that it's reliably rainy here 8 months of the year. It's much nicer to sit on the porch in the rain reading.
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
there are just so many ROOMS. with walls. and doors between EVERYTHING. and people actually close the doors.

Don't you have draughts in North America? Last winter I took to taping up doors in this room - not the one you go in and out by obviously - to try and cut down the knifing blasts of cold air.
Like SPK said, we insulate the hell out of places. a draft would be a nightmare when you're at -40. and no matter how tight that SOB is, at 40 below you find you always have drafts. the outer walls are insulated for nuclear attack, as is the floor and ceiling. we have outer doors sealed so tight sometimes they make sucking noises when opened. the windows are always double or triple paned and seal tight, and often people have insulated curtains.

I don't have central heating... I dont think I ever have. up here we tend to have big old iron wood burning stoves in the main room. If you were to close bedroom doors, by morning you'd be able to see your breath. We often have oil heaters as back-up (so you can leave the house without your pipes freezing) but those are rarely on "central" systems, either.

so it makes sense to have one big room, with small satellite rooms, and open doors. lots of air flow.
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Plus, if you haven't got lots of walls, what do you hang the bookshelves on?

That can be a real problem.
 
Posted by Psmith (# 15311) on :
 
Hot water definitely can handle southern Ontario winter; while I now have forced air (never again, I hope) my last apartment had radiators. Four of them- I never opened the valve on any but the one in the kitchen. There are more modern and efficient hot water systems available now. The older systems are common in old houses, so a modern one in a house with modern insulation it should be no problem in most of Canada- though if it breaks down while you're away, and the pipes burst...

As for sofa/coach etc... I'd use sofa and recognize chesterfield, coach and (like Nickel) davenport, but find settee odd. Unless it's the built in bench seat/bunk of a small sailboat.

Dinner is the main meal of the day, regardless of when you eat it. Lunch is a secondary meal at midday, and supper in the evening.

The living room. Not the drawing Room or parlour or any of those other options. My Australian relatives called it the lounge. A Family room is the more casual supplement, but cannot exist in a house without a living room.
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Signaller:
Originally posted by GeeDee:
quote:
Over the last decade or so, "yard" has become less common, at least in real estate agent's talk, and is being replaced by garden.
[tangent]

Interesting usage. In the UK we would say 'estate agent', in the USA they use 'realtor'; has Australia gone for a compromise?

[/tangent]

"Real estate agent/agency" has been used here for 150 years or so going by old advertisements I've seen. Properties in the country are normally sold by "property, stock and station agents".

I'm far from clear how a republic can have realtors.....
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
full confession on the "dark" score - I can sleep in broad daylight. often do. I have rarely lived in a place where I needed curtains to keep prying eyes out, so I sleep with the summer sun flooding in. I guess I'm just adapted to it.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I guess I'm just adapted to it.

Weirdo [Big Grin]

Unless I've been awake for too many hours to count, I have to have both darkness and horizontality to sleep. I have a couple of old eyemasks from airlines that I carry around in case I have to achieve better darkness, but given the offer of some kind of reclining chair to sleep in (ferries, aeroplanes,...) I do better on the floor.

[ 04. August 2013, 04:20: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I disagree on the porches always being enclosed. In many houses of Victorian or early 20th century age it is a covered space outside the front door which is useful for allowing door unlocking without getting sodden from rain, but not for keeping wellies and walking sticks. It may be a projection in front of the building, or a recess into the hall space behind the building line. Many people have enclosed these spaces more recently.

In southern California you still see a lot of porches that haven't been enclosed -- lots of nice weather means lots of sitting on the porch if you have one. Here in Long Beach there are scads of California bungalows, and along with the gabled roof, the porch and front stoop are defining features of the style when viewed from the street. They have relatively open plans, given that they were built before World War II -- folks were more concerned about keeping them cool than with heating them, and a porch, deep eaves and an open floorplan help a lot with that when you don't have air conditioning.

When I was a kid, we had a front room that was not at the front of the house. I think in my family we've all gradually switched to referring mostly to the living room.

My parents have dinner at mid-day on Sunday and then supper that evening, which is what their Mennonite parents did, but Mom seems quite conscious that this isn't the breakfast-lunch-dinner nomenclature that everyone she knows always uses (and that she uses the other six days), so on Sundays when she says "dinner" at mid-day and "supper" later, it's always with those quotation marks.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
I think that Canada and Alaska have much tougher standards for insulation in new construction then states further south.

Of course I live in balmy Seattle in a WWII era house that lacks insulation except where I've added it in the attic. New construction is insulated and there have to be checks that there's adequate air circulation from the outside because everything can be sealed so tightly. There are special circulators in colder climes that suck the heat from the air being exhausted and put it in the fresh cold air coming in.


The other nice thing about porches is they provide shade for the front of the house which cools things down while letting indirect light in. There is a tendency in colder climes for them to be remodeled with windows to create more living space without increasing the ground area of the house.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
That's a lovely porch, Ruth - about half the size of my garden! Where I could do with it as it faces west and gets very hot in the afternoon. People refer to it as "a lovely suntrap". Not these last weeks it hasn't been. And I would think of it as a porch rather than a verandah.

My house has gas fired warm air circulation for winter, which circulates what passes for cool air in summer. I'm considering getting a portable A/C since I can get the power from the sun now. Insulation, on the other hand, is a problem.

The dinner/lunch/tea/supper thing isn't just pond, it's class and north/south over here. And what is really odd is that some people consider their way of describing meals as correct, and others as wrong, and will look down on those with alternative nomenclature as being beneath the salt.

[ 04. August 2013, 06:48: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And what is really odd is that some people consider their way of describing meals as correct, and others as wrong, and will look down on those with alternative nomenclature as being beneath the salt.

Or alternatively as toffee-nosed posh gits. It cuts both ways.
 
Posted by Barnabas Aus (# 15869) on :
 
My family lived in a Sydney suburb which was developed just after WWI, so was dominated by Californian bungalows, but built with double-brick external walls and terracotta-tiled roofs.

My grandmother's house was on a flat block so had the large front verandah with the front door opening into the entrance hall. Our house was built on a sloping block, so the entry was through a small side porch, while the front verandah was elevated some feet from the front yard, with a brick parapet rather than a timber railing. As my sisters came along, this verandah was enclosed and became my bedroom.

Front entrances were only used by strangers. Friends and family always came to the back door, along the driveway which ran up the side of the house to the garage which was behind and to one side.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
I like dark and cold for sleeping. Dark is pretty easy with the black out drapes. Cold not so much, especially in August.

My budget doesn't run to real blackout drapes: in the summertime I tie up rather a large piece of duvateen* to the top bar of my Venetian blinds in the master bedroom. It is not noticeable from outside. I acquired rather a lot of it from a touring Broadway show I worked on....

*duvateen is heavy-duty theatrical black cloth used for masking on stage. It can be torn in a straight line either horzontally or vertically and attached to any surface with either stage ties (heavy string) or gaff tape (which is superior in holding power and durability as well as being light-years more expensive than something I never use - duct tape).
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
And what is really odd is that some people consider their way of describing meals as correct, and others as wrong, and will look down on those with alternative nomenclature as being beneath the salt.

Or alternatively as toffee-nosed posh gits. It cuts both ways.
I think the TNPG attitude is more likely to be a response to the looking down one than a first reaction to the different names. The key is in the very words you have used.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
I like dark and cold for sleeping. Dark is pretty easy with the black out drapes. Cold not so much, especially in August.

My budget doesn't run to real blackout drapes: in the summertime I tie up rather a large piece of duvateen* to the top bar of my Venetian blinds in the master bedroom. It is not noticeable from outside. I acquired rather a lot of it from a touring Broadway show I worked on....

*duvateen is heavy-duty theatrical black cloth used for masking on stage. It can be torn in a straight line either horzontally or vertically and attached to any surface with either stage ties (heavy string) or gaff tape (which is superior in holding power and durability as well as being light-years more expensive than something I never use - duct tape).

Have you ever come across an alternative to sticky tape for fixing to the top of venetian blinds - my bedroom faces west, high up, and really heats up in the afternoon - I tried hanging an old sheet sprayed with water over the top but need a temporary fix that can be redone each day. I really need to replace the blinds with curtains. (My mind has just got to work on this. The windows are the full width of the room, so there's nowhere to pull them right back to allow the full effect of the view - I have just realised I can get a curved end to the rail. But meanwhile, I need to fix the sheet to the blinds.)
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Penny S, I will copy your question to the Inquire Within thread (since I don't think any solutions are going to be culturally distinctive).

Firenze
Heaven Host


[ 04. August 2013, 11:34: Message edited by: Firenze ]
 
Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Whereas a lawn is almost a compulsory component of a garden in the UK. (Not ours, because it's too small and we're too lazy to mow: but most gardens, even a tiny pocket-handkerchief at the front of a terrace house, will have a lawn.)

Not nowadays ... most people have paved over their front gardens to form a parking space.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Which is a Bad Thing, encouraging run-off and increasing the risk of flooding. Plus looking dismal.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Penny S, I will copy your question to the Inquire Within thread (since I don't think any solutions are going to be culturally distinctive).

Firenze
Heaven Host

Thank you - and if they were, answers wouldn't be helpful, since I wouldn't be able to get whatever the solution was.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Whereas a lawn is almost a compulsory component of a garden in the UK. (Not ours, because it's too small and we're too lazy to mow: but most gardens, even a tiny pocket-handkerchief at the front of a terrace house, will have a lawn.)

Not nowadays ... most people have paved over their front gardens to form a parking space.
You're quite right, in general, However I was thinking of the sort of tiny pocket handkerchiefs, common around here, which are almost too small for a bike let alone a car. Lets just say that rear lawns are common, almost universal, while front ones are far from unknown.
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I think that Canada and Alaska have much tougher standards for insulation in new construction then states further south.

just a point of information: Alaska has no state standards for building. (we abhor rules. and laws. and lawmakers. and generally, government.) some boroughs and municipalities might have standards for building, but generally people build bomber insulated buildings just because it's practical and economic.

as far as the state is concerned, you can slap up four sheets of OSB and cover it with tarp and call it home.

[ 04. August 2013, 19:57: Message edited by: comet ]
 
Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Originally posted by Psmith, as part of a longer discussion:

quote:
As for sofa/coach etc... I'd use sofa and recognize chesterfield, coach and (like Nickel) davenport,
A davenport to me is a small writing desk with drawers down the side at right angles to where your knees go. I'm assuming you mean something different?

M.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Whereas a lawn is almost a compulsory component of a garden in the UK. (Not ours, because it's too small and we're too lazy to mow: but most gardens, even a tiny pocket-handkerchief at the front of a terrace house, will have a lawn.)

Not nowadays ... most people have paved over their front gardens to form a parking space.
I am not sure whether 'most' people have done this. A lot of people have, certainly. Very often block paving; tidy when put down; weedy after two or three years.

I cannot see the appeal of having an extended car park directly in front of a house, but clearly many others can.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
I like dark and cold for sleeping. Dark is pretty easy with the black out drapes. Cold not so much, especially in August.

My budget doesn't run to real blackout drapes: in the summertime I tie up rather a large piece of duvateen* to the top bar of my Venetian blinds in the master bedroom. It is not noticeable from outside.
Who cares about outside?

Tape it to the window, behind the blind. Then your room with blinds closed will remain pretty, and with any luck the neighbours will assume you are cultivating illicit drugs of some kind.

[Smile]

[ 05. August 2013, 10:02: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Draught excluders are better than tape for doors.

Have that as well. But the doors were made of green timber and are not a good fit to the frames.
True enough. Not much that can be done about all of that, except new doors. I have the same problem.

quote:

And you're right - it's down to how much you are prepared to spend on heating. I too spend winters looking like an ambulant branch of Oxfam.

Thank God for that. I thought I was the only one.

Winter starts here; 5th August and have adopted dressing gown already. [Big Grin]

[ 05. August 2013, 10:04: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Whereas a lawn is almost a compulsory component of a garden in the UK. (Not ours, because it's too small and we're too lazy to mow: but most gardens, even a tiny pocket-handkerchief at the front of a terrace house, will have a lawn.)

Not nowadays ... most people have paved over their front gardens to form a parking space.
I am not sure whether 'most' people have done this. A lot of people have, certainly. Very often block paving; tidy when put down; weedy after two or three years.

I cannot see the appeal of having an extended car park directly in front of a house, but clearly many others can.

I prefer they do that than what the buggers do around here - park on verges, turning them into mud, or on the pavements, wrecking them.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
with any luck the neighbours will assume you are cultivating illicit drugs of some kind.

[Smile]

So will the police.
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
full confession on the "dark" score - I can sleep in broad daylight. often do. I have rarely lived in a place where I needed curtains to keep prying eyes out, so I sleep with the summer sun flooding in. I guess I'm just adapted to it.

Which is a useful trait when "summer sun" can extend for 20+ hours a day.

When I worked in Southeast Alaska it was common to find the insides of bedroom windows covered with cooking foil for those who expected it to be dark at night.

But to tie back to the original topic, the question would be whether you would use "tin foil", "alumini(u)m foil" or something else?
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I do try to keep my house pleasant and innocent-looking from the outside, even as seen from the alley!
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
Not a comment, but a question: 'mentalism'.

The only time I've heard anyone refer to a mentalist in the UK is as an insult/personal description, ie "X, he's a mentalist". Defined as someone a little unhinged, or lacking in social skills.

Then the US tv programme 'The Mentalist' came out; I didn't watch it so didn't think about the title. Then I went to see the film Now You See Me which talks about mentalism as a pronounced skill at reading people from their unconscious verbal and physical tics.

My question is, is this a pond difference?
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
No, I don't think so.

Mentalist has been the name given to those conjurers that play tricks with your mind, like Derren Brown.

I've heard 'mentalist' as an insult from both sides of the pond. Wasn't there a Ship thread about George W Bush being a mentalist a year or two ago?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
As far as I was concerned a "mentalist" is a stage performer.

I only noticed it being used as an insilt very recently. Maybe in a thread on this website.
 
Posted by Pegasus (# 1966) on :
 
I first heard mentalist in the UK about 15 years ago as a semi-admiring insult for someone who does stupid and/ or dangerous things. I've only very recently become aware of it as referring to mind games.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
That would be "he's a bit mental" in my idiolect.

Driving when drunk, stayiing up thrtee nights in a row partying, wearing a Millwall shirt in a pub near the West Ham ground, snorting lots of speed, generally turing things up to 11 - that could dbe called "mental". Or at least it could in the 70s and 80s. Might be disapproving or approvong depending on the tone of voice, but mroe likely disapproving. Has conniotations of both violence and exuberence. Someone who is "mental" (in this sense) is probably rather dangerous, but not neccessarily boring.

But I have no memory of such people being called "mentalists" - for me that's an old-fashioned name for a kind of variety act.
 
Posted by Angel Wrestler (# 13673) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
There are Americanisms I like. This will upset some but I'm happy with "I'm conflicted" and others which give a shorter, pithier form to sentences.

We've got enough problems in the UK or our own making...

And where did the now common use of 'so' at the start of sentences come from?

Grumble, grumble.

And where did the now common use of 'so' at the start of sentences come from?

YES! That seems to be a fairly recent development, IME. I've gotten [Biased] used to it, but even so, it still sounds funny to start a sentence with the word "so." The word "so" is a conjunction. It describes something that happened as a result of something else: My neighbor's dog bit me, so I decided to avoid that dog."

It's not supposed to introduce a new topic of conversation, though that's how "so" is often used lately.

Edited to admit that I suck at editing and bolding quotes. Not going to try to fix it because I'd probably make it worse. [Hot and Hormonal]

[ 17. August 2013, 04:51: Message edited by: Angel Wrestler ]
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Have you ever come across an alternative to sticky tape for fixing to the top of venetian blinds - my bedroom faces west, high up, and really heats up in the afternoon - I tried hanging an old sheet sprayed with water over the top but need a temporary fix that can be redone each day. I really need to replace the blinds with curtains. (My mind has just got to work on this. The windows are the full width of the room, so there's nowhere to pull them right back to allow the full effect of the view - I have just realised I can get a curved end to the rail. But meanwhile, I need to fix the sheet to the blinds.) [/QB]

If I understand your problem the two fixes I would try are the little Neodymium Magnets you can buy on ebay cheaply if the blinds are steel cased. Otherwise, Velcro patches on adhesive backing is my solution for reusable stickiness in my bedroom shades.
 
Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :
 
visiting the Pacific North West (BC, WA,OR) this year I discovered that 'a la mode' means with ice cream. I have never come across that usage in the UK (or OZ), or even the East Coast. Do people know about the distribution of this usage?
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
Latchkey Kid, when I was growing up in PA, 'a la mode' was in common usage. I was the weird kid who always declined. (Pie and ice cream must be separated!) [Biased]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Wot, no hot apple pie or hot chocolate fudge brownies with a dollop of lovely cold vanilla ice-cream melting into them?

(I wouldn't want it served that way every single time but do think it's nice for a treat.)
 
Posted by argona (# 14037) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Americanisms. Definately a cause of much irritation. One I dislike in particular: "How are you?" "I'm good." Apart from being an Americanism it's just poor English.

I found the Australian equivalent, "I'm sweet", hilarious when I first heard it. But what the hell, let words run free. They die in captivity.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Wot, no hot apple pie or hot chocolate fudge brownies with a dollop of lovely cold vanilla ice-cream melting into them?

(I wouldn't want it served that way every single time but do think it's nice for a treat.)

FWIW apple pie or apple crumble with ice cream and custard is wonderful. Nothing exceeds like excess.
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
Many thanks for the replies about mentalism upthread. I'd only come across the word relatively recently (unlike 'being mental' which I remember being very popular when I was a kid,), so probably haven't met many mentalists of either stripe. Maybe.

'A la mode' always makes me think of a teenage Bobby Drake aka X-men's Iceman using his ice-powers to freeze some pie at the dinner table at Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters. Who says comics aren't educational.
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Pie a la mode just means pie served in the style or custom of the day. In the US, this was ice cream; when I grew up, a la mode was more likely to refer to cheese.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
It still sounds funny to start a sentence with the word "so." The word "so" is a conjunction. It describes something that happened as a result of something else.

So how's about "so" as the only word in the sentence?

My first job, fresh out of high school, was as houseman in a hotel. The head housekeeper, a German woman, showed me how to do the various chores that comprised my duties. Each time I finished a task according to her directions, she would say, "So." I assumed she meant "Thus", or "Yes, that's the way to do it."

And what about Pharoah's -- oops, I mean Yul Brynner's -- line "So let it be written, so let it be done" in The Ten Commandments?

[ 17. August 2013, 19:24: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:


I'm far from clear how a republic can have realtors.....

If they use Imperial measurements, I'm sure they can have realtors.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Wot, no hot apple pie or hot chocolate fudge brownies with a dollop of lovely cold vanilla ice-cream melting into them?

(I wouldn't want it served that way every single time but do think it's nice for a treat.)

I think the only time pie a la mode was an enjoyable treat (for the weird kid, mind you) was when the pie was home made rhubarb hot out of the oven with vanilla hand cranked ice cream. Yum, yum!
 
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
visiting the Pacific North West (BC, WA,OR) this year I discovered that 'a la mode' means with ice cream. I have never come across that usage in the UK (or OZ), or even the East Coast. Do people know about the distribution of this usage?

It goes all the way down the west coast of the US into southern California (where I live) and at least as far inland as the Central Valley of California (where my parents are from).
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
I grew up with pie a la mode meaning with ice cream in New York and Boston. Serving apple pie with a slice of cheddar was a pretty much an obsolete tradition.

While there's still apple, cherry, blueberry,pumpkin, lemon meringue, key lime, banana and chocolate cream pies, the number of pie varieties available seem to be shrinking on the Northeast and Northwest coasts. I can't remember the last time I saw a Bavarian Cream pie or a custard pie.

[ 18. August 2013, 00:13: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Custard pies are alive and well in the Midwest. (Yay!)

I grew up with the idea that "a la mode" meant "topped with ice cream." Imagine my confusion when I started reading more sophisticated cookbooks and finding "a la mode" attached to recipes for, say, beef.
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Serving apple pie with a slice of cheddar was a pretty much an obsolete tradition.

And here. It has to be Wensleydale.
 
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
[tangent] Nice to see you again, LutheranChik! [Big Grin] [/tangent]
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Thank you. It's been...an interesting summer.
 
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
While I was in the USA, staying with a mixed USA/Australia couple, I finally plucked up the courage to ask just what eggs 'over easy' meant.

I then had some.

And THEN I heard 'over medium' for the first time in my life.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

And THEN I heard 'over medium' for the first time in my life.

And did you hear "over hard" (which is a cruel thing to do to a poor innocent egg)?
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Probably it has come up before. But I have no idea if "dinner" means lunch or supper. I hear it both ways and always have to ask. Dinner meaning only a special meal, like Christmas dinner.

The same holds for when someone says the time as "quarter of 4". Never can figure out if that's before or after. I think this last one might be an American usage. Not sure about the dinner one.
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Th time of "Dinner" varies with location and class. There is no set rule.

Generally speaking lower classes have dinner in the middle of the day and higher classed in the evening. Middle of the day dinner is also more common in the north of England.

Army regiments will even provide evening dinner to officers and mid-day dinner to other ranks.

With greater movement across classes as well as geographically, it all gets confusing.
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
A quarter of 4 is 4:15. A quarter to 4 is 3:45. I learnt this when I was a toddler.

Other languages have different ways of expressing this.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
There is breakfast - somewhere between 8 and 10: elevenses - at 11 of course: lunch at 1: tea at 4: dinner c 7.30: supper at around 10. Plus 'a little something' which may be taken at any time to sustain you in the arid wastes between actual meals.

Simple.
 
Posted by Edith (# 16978) on :
 
And if you're David Cameron you have 'country supper' which means hatching a plot with Rebekah Wade.
 
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
A quarter of 4 is 4:15. A quarter to 4 is 3:45. I learnt this when I was a toddler.

Other languages have different ways of expressing this.

Sorry Pete, beg to differ, at least as far as where I lived in the US (NY and PA.) "Quarter of four" is 3:45. Means a quarter shy of four. "A quarter to four," used less often in US IME, while more usual in UK, means the same thing.

For 4:15, I heard "a quarter after four" a bit more often in US, I think, than its equivalent "quarter past," which again seems to me more common in UK.

One interesting Pond difference, which caused me recent bafflement in communication with a friend, is what's called "positive anymore." (Lots about it on the internet).
Leaving aside the question of whether any more is one or two words, which is a different Pond issue, "positive anymore" is when someone says,
eg, "Anymore, gas is so expensive." Meaning "these days".
Even more weirdly, "I shop at Walmart anymore." When I read or hear this latter usage, it seems that the person was trying to say they DON'T shop at Walmart any more, whereas before they did, and they just forgot to put in the "don't." But no, it's another example of the positive anymore. They shop at Walmart these days (implying that before, they didn't.)
Apparently a mid-western phenomenon, found also in California (dust bowl migration effect)--but originally from some parts of Ireland!

I could go on about pond gap stuff. In fact, I probably will!!
 
Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :
 
something that we have fallen foul of before in Transatlantic meetings is the verb "to table".
when we say it, it means we are putting it on the table to talk about.
When our US colleagues say "we'll table that" they mean taking it away and not talking about it again.....
 
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
something that we have fallen foul of before in Transatlantic meetings is the verb "to table".
when we say it, it means we are putting it on the table to talk about.
When our US colleagues say "we'll table that" they mean taking it away and not talking about it again.....

yes, this is full of potential for misunderstanding!

Another one is "bomb." As when something (project, Broadway show, idea, etc) goes brilliantly well; OR when it is a complete flop.

At this moment, I can't recall which is US and which UK!!!

[ 19. August 2013, 15:42: Message edited by: Cara ]
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:

..."Quarter of four" is 3:45. Means a quarter shy of four. "A quarter to four," used less often in US IME, while more usual in UK, means the same thing.

For 4:15, I heard "a quarter after four" a bit more often in US, I think, than its equivalent "quarter past," which again seems to me more common in UK.

Growing up on the west coast of the US (at a time when about 3 in 4 of the kids in my school were immigrants from another state) it was always "quarter to / 'til" or "quarter after / past". If anyone used the phrase "quarter of" I would have interpreted it as "quarter before".

As far as I can tell, the reason such references are dropping out of favor is due to the introduction of clocks with digital displays: now if you asked the time it would be 3:47.
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
US: the show was a bomb = bad, the show was the bomb = good.
Like, crystal clear, dude.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
"I shop at Walmart anymore." <<snip>> It's another example of the positive anymore. They shop at Walmart these days (implying that before, they didn't.)

I've heard the expression, but I think it's extremely rare.

As for the expressions of time, "quarter to four" or "quarter till four" means 3:45; "quarter past four" or "quarter after four" means 4:15. "Quarter of four" I've never heard.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Serving apple pie with a slice of cheddar was a pretty much an obsolete tradition.

And here. It has to be Wensleydale.
My mum always used to say, 'an apple pie without the cheese is like a kiss without the squeeze.' (Funny really because she wasn't the kissy-cuddly sort)
 
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
something that we have fallen foul of before in Transatlantic meetings is the verb "to table".
when we say it, it means we are putting it on the table to talk about.
When our US colleagues say "we'll table that" they mean taking it away and not talking about it again.....

It actually means (in US) to set it aside for now with the understanding it will be talked about at a later date, often specified in the motion itself ("I vote we table that motion until we have a quorum...")
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Thinking of food terminology. A sideways reading of "to table".

Does anyone anywhere else eat "dainties". These are usually little pieces of sweet squares, like O Henry Slice or Nanaimo Bars. They are generally called dainties here.

The other one that also confused a visitor, is that they had never had nor heard of a jellied salad, which is jello with things in it like vegetables or fruit.

Does anyone make bannock? Made some on Saturday for breakfast and it got me thinking if this is common anywhere else these days. The history is Scottish and First Nations as far as I know.

[ 19. August 2013, 16:52: Message edited by: no prophet ]
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:

Generally speaking lower classes have dinner in the middle of the day and higher classed in the evening. Middle of the day dinner is also more common in the north of England.

I'm sure we've had this discussion before. It's more complicated than that. Strictly, 'dinner' is the main meal of the day at whatever time it is taken. The upper and middle classes - being lazy s***s - had only just finished breakfast by midday so dinner became later and later, finally ending up about 7 or so in the evening. The workers, who were up and about early, needed to eat at midday.

However, shifting work patterns and lifestyles mean that for most people today the midday (approx) meal is either a snack at one's workplace or a fairly light meal at best - lunch.

Most people now I think have their main meal in the evening. But the middle class, self-conscious about calling it dinner (unless it's a dinner party or full-dress occasion), tend to call that 'supper' (which for working class people is a couple of cream crackers before going to bed). The latter persist in calling their midday snack 'dinner' and their evening meal 'tea', even if they don't drink any tea with it and if it is from the same Delia Smith or Jamie Oliver cookbook that the middle classes use.

As an example of the confused class self-image we have in our house, 'lunch' is a snacky thing in the early afternoon (being retired we, like the aristocracy, have only just finished breakfast at 12) but we persist in calling the evening meal 'tea'. Sometimes we will have 'supper' before bed which might consist of a slice of toast and glass of whisky!

I get the impression that Americans tend to eat early: dinner at 5 or 6pm. Is that accurate? Certainly if you go out to a restaurant in the UK - unless its the child-friendly sort with lots of families - it will be deserted until about 8 or even 9.
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
More likely fur-trade meets Indian = Métis.
 
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :
 
At Amanda B. Reckonedwythe: The positive anymore is apparently not that rare in certain areas of the US, and spreading, according to what I've been reading on the internet.

Angloid, re dinner (which we have indeed discussed before): for me, very definitely the evening meal, but the evening meal eaten by adults. When I was growing up, the children under about 15 had an early meal at about 5:30 so they could then be got ready for bed at a decent hour. This early meal was supper. The adults had dinner at about 8. No self-consciousness about calling it dinner, as mentioned by Angloid.

Yes, Americans--or some of them anyway-- IME tend to have dinner earlier than the British, and much earlier than continental Europeans.

We grew up in the south but my sister has gone Oop North and now speaks of the evening meal as "tea" which I simply can't get used to--as I think I've related before, when once online she mused aloud about what on earth she was going to make for tea, I in all sincerity replied,
"...um, a cup or even a pot of tea? And maybe a biscuit?"

[ 19. August 2013, 17:11: Message edited by: Cara ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm sure we've had this discussion before.

Many times. Many, many times.

I ran into trouble at college with the tea/dinner thing when another student invited me round for tea. We had several cups of the stuff and I was getting hungrier and hungrier but no sign of any food, until she said, "Right, my landlady says my dinner's nearly ready so out you go". And back to college I went starving, to find I had missed dinner. In Dublin "dinner" was what we had at lunchtime and "tea" in the evening. I knew what they meant at college but it can be difficult to gauge the nuances of an informal invitation.

Also, the time thing used to confuse the foreign students hugely. "When you say to turn up at half seven do you mean 18:30 or 19:30? And should we be late to be polite or is it rude if we don't turn up on time?"
 
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
Perhaps this thread should be called the Region Gap as we cannot agree within the same countries, much less land mass.
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
something that we have fallen foul of before in Transatlantic meetings is the verb "to table".
when we say it, it means we are putting it on the table to talk about.
When our US colleagues say "we'll table that" they mean taking it away and not talking about it again.....

in my (US) experience, if you "table" a motion, you are taking it away, but it HAS to be addressed at the next meeting, even if only to table it again. tabling it a temporary postponement, often while awaiting more information.

As someone who has been on a number of boards (!) and has been the secretary more than once, if a board votes to table something, I immediately add it to the next agenda unless the table motion includes a different specific date.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
US: the show was a bomb = bad, the show was the bomb = good.
Like, crystal clear, dude.

Except there's a US youth usage "It's the bomb" meaning great. This caused a local guerrilla artist some problems when he attached a ball and chain to the Hammering Man sculpture and one of the youth who helped make the ball and chain it had chalked "It's the Bomb" on it which the police took literally.
 
Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :
 
thanks for the explanation of the US "table" usually we don't discuss it again because things they table usually get an offline decision from the Boss (without our say) by the time the next meeting comes around
 
Posted by basso (# 4228) on :
 
I grew up in California, and my parents are from the Midwest. "A quarter of" the hour is something that I grew up with, but younger people seem not to understand it at all. I've chalked that up (is that another idiom that's becoming obsolete?) to digital clocks, but I wonder now if it's another US regional difference.

We've also had the 'eggs over medium' discussion here. US shipmates mostly agree with me that it's way too difficult to get your eggs delivered properly over medium; UK folks seem to think it's a foolish thing to expect to get in the first place.
 
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
The positive anymore is apparently not that rare in certain areas of the US, and spreading, according to what I've been reading on the internet.

Which everyone knows is gospel truth.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

Does anyone anywhere else eat "dainties". These are usually little pieces of sweet squares, like O Henry Slice or Nanaimo Bars. They are generally called dainties here.

Like petit fours?

quote:

The other one that also confused a visitor, is that they had never had nor heard of a jellied salad, which is jello with things in it like vegetables or fruit.

I certainly ate jelly with fruit (from a tin, natch) in it as a UK child, but I don't remember that we had a special name for it - it was just "oranges and jelly" or whatever, I think.

quote:
Originally posted by Cara:

Yes, Americans--or some of them anyway-- IME tend to have dinner earlier than the British, and much earlier than continental Europeans.

"Standard" dinner time varies a bit by region in the US, too, but about the hardest thing to get used to when moving from the UK to the US midwest was that we could go out, have a couple of pints, and by the time we headed off in search of dinner at 9-9:30, find that all the restaurants were putting chairs on tables.
 
Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :
 
I suppose I could have worked it out from TV/films, but this was the first year I understood what bussing was and what busboys did.

Then I wondered why tipping did not cover the bussing, or if you tipped even if you collected your own food from the counter. There is so much more to learn about tipping than the travel guides tell you.

And remembering Comet saying that Aussies are the worst tippers I tried to make sure all my tips were at least 20% and that they knew we were Australian. But I never did work out what was appropriate for the people who made up the motel rooms, or for tour operators.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

Does anyone anywhere else eat "dainties". These are usually little pieces of sweet squares, like O Henry Slice or Nanaimo Bars. They are generally called dainties here.

Like petit fours?

No, or at least 'no' to the wikipedia pictures of them. Never heard of petit-fours. Those are like pieces of cake and full desserts. Dainties are usually such that you eat 3 or 5 of them. They are typically much smaller. Here's a few common ones: peanut butter marshmallow squares, Nanaimo bars, matrimonial cake.

They are typically about 1½"×1½" and maybe ½" to ¾" high. The are differentiated from things like rice krispie squares and puffed wheat cake, but I can't exactly say the differences except dainties are rich and sweet.

As for the Métis, I'm sure that's a bannock eating group/nation too, but we don't seem to connect it so much to them as to Cree people who got the ideas from Scottish and Orkneymen who staffed the Hudson Bay Co. stores, at least in the west. It's pretty common for it to be the bread item at a potluck supper in the north.

[ 20. August 2013, 02:43: Message edited by: no prophet ]
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Yes, Americans tend to have early dinner -- more so I think in the Midwest and in rural areas in general. When my dad was farming, he up at 4:00 if not earlier and busy in the barn milking cows during the wee hours; so breakfast at our house was quite early, and this also tended to move up the other two meals of the day -- that and the necessity of going out to the barn again by early evening to milk the cows again. Long after we sold our dairy herd and my father started "working out," we still tended to keep the same hours for meals. Before my dad went to work outside the farm our midday meal was indeed "dinner," the large meal of the day, but with him gone during the day it quickly changed to a fast lunch for my mom, and for me if I was home, with the large meal after my dad got home. (Still quite early.)

Interestingly, DP and I find ourselves eating at farmers' hours, even when we go out to eat; we joke about getting home before the street lights come on, but actually we are a little cautious about driving distances (necessary to go to nice restaurants)late at night with so many deer in our part of the world -- it's a legitimate concern, and since we've both had car-deer accidents in the past we're cautious. Our bi-coastal kids, who work odd hours, dine at truly Continental hours, which really messes up our biorhythms and tummies alike when we visit.
 
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
No, or at least 'no' to the wikipedia pictures of them. Never heard of petit-fours. Those are like pieces of cake and full desserts. Dainties are usually such that you eat 3 or 5 of them.

Petit fours are small - each one is about a mouthful. You might eat one or two with a post-prandial coffee, after having had dessert, or you might eat a selection as a light dessert, or with tea.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Does anyone anywhere else eat "dainties". These are usually little pieces of sweet squares, like O Henry Slice or Nanaimo Bars. They are generally called dainties here.

... Dainties are usually such that you eat 3 or 5 of them. They are typically much smaller. Here's a few common ones: peanut butter marshmallow squares, Nanaimo bars, matrimonial cake.

They are typically about 1½"×1½" and maybe ½" to ¾" high. The are differentiated from things like rice krispie squares and puffed wheat cake, but I can't exactly say the differences except dainties are rich and sweet.

Traybakes. They are prevalent here, usually in the form of flapjacks, chocolate squares, millionaire's shortbread, brownies etc etc. Nothing very dainty about them as they are bigger than you specify. Smaller ones of that dimension would be "bites".
 
Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I suppose I could have worked it out from TV/films, but this was the first year I understood what bussing was and what busboys did.

Then I wondered why tipping did not cover the bussing,

servers share their tips with bussers, door minders, dishwashers, and sometimes cooks. it all gets spread around. at least cooks, though, and often door staff, also make more per hour. Tips are MEANT to reward service; but a good server shares it with "support" staff.
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
And remembering Comet saying that Aussies are the worst tippers I tried to make sure all my tips were at least 20% and that they knew we were Australian. But I never did work out what was appropriate for the people who made up the motel rooms, or for tour operators.

1) right on! way to blow the stereotype!
2) don't feel bad, I can never figure those ones out, either. or taxis, bellhops, or hair dressers. it's a minefield.
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
This is a bit of a tangent, but it all just shows why tipping, as a system, stinks. Much better for the dignity of all concerned for the employer just to pay a decent wage, set prices accordingly, and have done with it.
 
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Certainly if you go out to a restaurant in the UK - unless its the child-friendly sort with lots of families - it will be deserted until about 8 or even 9.

You clearly don't live here in Suffolk then: many folk eat early and eateries are at their busiest around 7 pm. Our local "chippie" open after school and is closed before 9 pm.

And that's in town, not the countryside.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Or Edinburgh. Busiest would be 7 to 8.30 normally. Busy-ish until 10 - with perhaps a late pulse after the cinema/theatre/pub. A lot depends on location and clientele - but here, which I would describe as outer inner city, some places are packing up by 9.30. Half a mile away, and round the university, and particularly the Asian ones - probably still heaving until midnight.
 
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

Most people now I think have their main meal in the evening. But the middle class, self-conscious about calling it dinner (unless it's a dinner party or full-dress occasion), tend to call that 'supper' (which for working class people is a couple of cream crackers before going to bed). The latter persist in calling their midday snack 'dinner' and their evening meal 'tea', even if they don't drink any tea with it and if it is from the same Delia Smith or Jamie Oliver cookbook that the middle classes use.

You have summarised my experience of meals as a child of working class Lancastrians living in the South, including the cream crackers and cheese before bed [Smile] I still mostly use dinner and tea, to the exasperation of my soundly middle class husband and the amusement of my kids.
 
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
The positive anymore is apparently not that rare in certain areas of the US, and spreading, according to what I've been reading on the internet.

Which everyone knows is gospel truth.
Ok well I now feel as if I must seem a bit dim--I do know the internet isn't the gospel truth, of course!
Just that lots of examples of the spread of this usage of "positive anymore" seem to imply it's not that rare, in certain parts of the US. Whereas in others it's unheard of.

But I freely admit, I'm not a linguist and don't really know.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

Most people now I think have their main meal in the evening. But the middle class, self-conscious about calling it dinner (unless it's a dinner party or full-dress occasion), tend to call that 'supper' (which for working class people is a couple of cream crackers before going to bed). The latter persist in calling their midday snack 'dinner' and their evening meal 'tea', even if they don't drink any tea with it and if it is from the same Delia Smith or Jamie Oliver cookbook that the middle classes use.

You have summarised my experience of meals as a child of working class Lancastrians living in the South, including the cream crackers and cheese before bed [Smile] I still mostly use dinner and tea, to the exasperation of my soundly middle class husband and the amusement of my kids.
My kids seem to have become bilingual in posh and normal, and can refer to "lunch", "dinner" and "tea" quite freely. Somehow son of a Blackburn-raised postman I and daughter of Oxford 1st class MA Electrical Engineer she and the hybrid offspring manage to cope with the multiplicity of forms.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
There seems to be a lot of variation around meals. Mine are a mixture of working class from my upbringing, and middle class from - well, everything since then.

The easiest is breakfast; this is in the morning (usually), either on getting up or after returning from Mass. [Smile]

Lunch is at lunchtime; midday. Very often a sandwich or salad. An elaborate meal is never lunch. At school we had 'dinner' at midday, and it was the same at home when I was small, but I don't use that any more.

Tea is at teatime; any time between five and seven or so. Again, never a very elaborate or heavy meal.

High tea is a specific form of tea; sandwiches, cake, toast, scones, jam, cream, tea. This is a very useful and under-rated meal, perfect for people you want to spend time with, but don't really want to cook for. I think it is a summer meal, though. High tea after dark in December would be miserable.

Dinner is either Sunday afternoon, prepared after Church, or a more elaborate evening meal. If inviting friends for dinner, that will always be evening; 8 or 9pm, unless on a Sunday, when it could be any time between 3pm and 9pm.

And I think it is still true that if invited anywhere for a meal at 3pm, it is better to be 15 minutes late than 15 minutes early. Everyone aims to be not the first to arrive, nor the last; if three cars roll up together, half an hour late, then everyone is happy.

Similarly, everyone will stay on afterwards into the evening, chatting happily, until one car-load announces that they are on their way. Suddenly everyone else will discover that they were just about to start to leave as well; nobody wants to be the last guest left behind.

[Smile]

[ 20. August 2013, 12:52: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
High tea is a specific form of tea; sandwiches, cake, toast, scones, jam, cream, tea. This is a very useful and under-rated meal, perfect for people you want to spend time with, but don't really want to cook for. I think it is a summer meal, though. High tea after dark in December would be miserable.

Not if it included a hot savoury like scrambled eggs, welsh rarebit, smoked haddock with a poached egg, leftover pie from lunch, or beans or sardines on toast, followed by buttered crumpets or toasted teacakes before the bread and butter and jam or honey and cakes. In summer it could include a simple salad with cold meat or pork pie. It was a working class substantial meal east of the pond. I gather from various articles that outside these shores, and up the class ladder it has become more genteel. Pity. One of my favourite meals. I could sustain myself on a large breakfast (in a Scottish hotel I remember, we had porage AND kipper or fried eggs and bacon AND toast and marmalade - I was a teenager then) and a high tea with no other input. Possibly a little late supper of a hot milky drink and a biscuit or two.
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
The references to "middle class" within posts make me say that in Canada, everyone seems to think they are middle class. The terms "upper class" and "lower class" don't tend to get used. "Rich" and "poor" or "poverty" seem to be used in place of those, always counterpointed with "middle class".

Though there is other old terminology: blue collar and white collar jobs. But usually now it is said to be "in the trades" or "professional". or the last plumber we had in told me "I work for a living", with the "unlike you" unstated.

Do Americans, Australians, Kiwis use the terms "upper class" and "lower class"? I don't recall so, but such things haven't been the topics of conversations with people we've met. My last such international discussion in person was about cheese, gouda actually.
 
Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :
 
I would judge supper as the main evening meal to be a usage of the English upper-middle classes, not the generality of middle class people. So it would be the horsey, county set (pronouncing "supper" as if it were spelt "sapper") or perhaps the Islington chatterati.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
High tea is a specific form of tea; sandwiches, cake, toast, scones, jam, cream, tea. This is a very useful and under-rated meal, perfect for people you want to spend time with, but don't really want to cook for. I think it is a summer meal, though. High tea after dark in December would be miserable.

Not if it included a hot savoury like scrambled eggs, welsh rarebit, smoked haddock with a poached egg, leftover pie from lunch, or beans or sardines on toast, followed by buttered crumpets or toasted teacakes before the bread and butter and jam or honey and cakes. In summer it could include a simple salad with cold meat or pork pie. It was a working class substantial meal east of the pond. I gather from various articles that outside these shores, and up the class ladder it has become more genteel. Pity. One of my favourite meals.
That all sounds marvellous, but would not count as high tea to me; that would be tea. (Sorry!!)

quote:
I could sustain myself on a large breakfast (in a Scottish hotel I remember, we had porage AND kipper or fried eggs and bacon AND toast and marmalade - I was a teenager then) and a high tea with no other input. Possibly a little late supper of a hot milky drink and a biscuit or two.

I agree about supper; this is either cereal or a very light snack before bed.

I tend not to use supper to mean dinner. [Smile]
 
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
High tea is a specific form of tea; sandwiches, cake, toast, scones, jam, cream, tea. This is a very useful and under-rated meal, perfect for people you want to spend time with, but don't really want to cook for. I think it is a summer meal, though. High tea after dark in December would be miserable.

Not if it included a hot savoury like scrambled eggs, welsh rarebit, smoked haddock with a poached egg, leftover pie from lunch, or beans or sardines on toast, followed by buttered crumpets or toasted teacakes before the bread and butter and jam or honey and cakes. In summer it could include a simple salad with cold meat or pork pie. ..
You have just made me drool all over my keyboard!
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
No prophet: Regarding the class structure in Canada, I keep chanting this little rhyme I learnt when I were but a lad:

In Toronto, there are no classes
Only the Masseys and the masses


Vincent Massey was the last of the Masseys*, and our Governor-General from 1952-1959. Of him, when he was Canadian High Commissioner to the UK, The Duke of Norfolk (created 1483) said:

Fine fellow, Vincent, but he does make one feel a savage.

*His brother, Raymond, no slouch as an actor, was mildly famous in the United States, but it was felt he rather let the side down.
 
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:

You have just made me drool all over my keyboard! [/QB]
Imagine how I felt typing it....

And I'm supposedly on a low calorie day.

The various sites I checked online about high tea do refer to the differences in meaning in various places. There is a class difference, and a place difference, and a difference in London hotels who call what everyone else here calls afternoon tea, with sandwiches, High Tea because that's what tourists think it is.

When I read up, I was interested to find, for the first time, reference to Low Tea, supposedly so because it was partaken of while sitting around low tables in an elegant fashion. High Tea was eaten sitting at a proper table. I am not convinced by this. The low table lot were most likely to speak, I would think, of afternoon tea.

What a minefield.

The Beavers' meal for the Pevensie's is a High Tea in my tradition - and presumably Ulster's.

[ 20. August 2013, 17:36: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:


Do Americans... use the terms "upper class" and "lower class"? I don't recall so, but such things haven't been the topics of conversations with people we've met.

Occasionally upper class is referred to if it is "Old Money" like the Rockefellers, but lower class is usually working class though most people prefer to think they were middle class. I was raised "upper middle class" - we were not independently wealthy! Today I just consider myself semi-retired, independent of class. I seem to be working less than I did four or five years ago and I have two part-time jobs.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
No prophet: Regarding the class structure in Canada, I keep chanting this little rhyme I learnt when I were but a lad:

In Toronto, there are no classes
Only the Masseys and the masses


Vincent Massey was the last of the Masseys*, and our Governor-General from 1952-1959. Of him, when he was Canadian High Commissioner to the UK, The Duke of Norfolk (created 1483) said:

Fine fellow, Vincent, but he does make one feel a savage.

*His brother, Raymond, no slouch as an actor, was mildly famous in the United States, but it was felt he rather let the side down.

In Toronto one might have added the Eatons -- not now -- and in many cities there was at least one family that would rank as upper. In Winnipeg it would have been the Richardsons, for example, and possibly the Oslers (though not the Norquays, despite their political eminence -- part native, you know).

And I don't think the Masseys outranked the Molsens, who practically owned a seat in the Senate for several decades, which the Masseys never did.

John

[ 20. August 2013, 21:14: Message edited by: John Holding ]
 
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
How could I forget the Molsons in Quebec?

Now chanting Molson Canaaaadiaaan. Lager Beer!

Curse you, John Holding, for that earworm! [Biased]
 
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My kids seem to have become bilingual in posh and normal, and can refer to "lunch", "dinner" and "tea" quite freely.

I tend to swing between usages depending on context and mood, although supper is very definitely something you would eat with a cup of bedtime cocoa.

Does anyone call a packed lunch 'snap' anymore? My granddad used it frequently, but I haven't heard it since school.
 
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on :
 
Breakfast, lunch and dinner here, and I don't know if I've ever heard anyone in the US using other terms regularly.

Breakfast is always fairly early, though might stretch towards 11 AM on a lazy day, in which case it might become brunch. With most people either at work or in school, lunch is typically not something eaten at home, so rarely the largest meal of the day.

Dinner can be anywhere from 5 to 9 or so, depending on what we are doing. Most families eat with their children, so we would have just one evening meal before their bedtime rather than a later one for grown-ups. Traditionally 6 to 7PM is "dinner time" for the "typical family", if such a thing exists. When the granddaughter is visiting we'll eat at 5 or 5:30, or when it is just the two of us we may wait until it gets dark at 9:30 if there is work to do outside.

Exceptions are major meals such as Christmas Dinner, which may start as early as 2pm. This would be the major meal of the day, and I don't remember ever having a name for a lighter meal later in the evening other than "leftovers".

Sunday Brunch is often a more formal meal, likely at a restaurant, with a mix of breakfast food and more substantial fare. They often open as early as 10 and go until 2 or so, popularly done as a buffet, the idea being a large enough meal to last until dinner. It can be done at home just as well, but not if the cook also wants to go to church or have a lay-in along with everyone else.


Not that there aren't variations - certainly farm meal schedules may be different, as well as those who don't base their life around the 8 - 5 world of modern jobs. But this is the common expectation as far as I have experienced it in the US.
 
Posted by mertide (# 4500) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:

Does anyone call a packed lunch 'snap' anymore? My granddad used it frequently, but I haven't heard it since school.

In our mining communities, a packed lunch is generally called a crib, which I think derives from Cornish mining.
 
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
No prophet: Regarding the class structure in Canada, I keep chanting this little rhyme I learnt when I were but a lad:

In Toronto, there are no classes
Only the Masseys and the masses


Vincent Massey was the last of the Masseys*, and our Governor-General from 1952-1959. Of him, when he was Canadian High Commissioner to the UK, The Duke of Norfolk (created 1483) said:

Fine fellow, Vincent, but he does make one feel a savage.

*His brother, Raymond, no slouch as an actor, was mildly famous in the United States, but it was felt he rather let the side down.

In Toronto one might have added the Eatons -- not now -- and in many cities there was at least one family that would rank as upper. In Winnipeg it would have been the Richardsons, for example, and possibly the Oslers (though not the Norquays, despite their political eminence -- part native, you know).

And I don't think the Masseys outranked the Molsens, who practically owned a seat in the Senate for several decades, which the Masseys never did.

John

And Boston had its "Brahmins" as in the verse:
quote:
And this is good old Boston,
The home of the bean and the cod,
Where the Lowells talk only to Cabots,
And the Cabots talk only to God.


 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mertide:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:

Does anyone call a packed lunch 'snap' anymore? My granddad used it frequently, but I haven't heard it since school.

In our mining communities, a packed lunch is generally called a crib, which I think derives from Cornish mining.
And the time for lunch is called a "crib break".
 
Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :
 
A packed lunch in Cornish is "kroust".
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
[LanguageGeek]

Cognate Welsh 'Crwst' - pastry. I suspect it's a borrowing from English 'Crust'

[/LanguageGeek]

Where's Carys when you need her?
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[LanguageGeek]

Cognate Welsh 'Crwst' - pastry. I suspect it's a borrowing from English 'Crust'

[/LanguageGeek]

Where's Carys when you need her?

OED says crust is either direct from Latin crusta or via OF crouste; hard shell, outer case, etc.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
How could I forget the Molsons in Quebec?

Now chanting Molson Canaaaadiaaan. Lager Beer!

Curse you, John Holding, for that earworm! [Biased]

Today Toronto has the Westons. Let's not speak about what earns you a seat in the Senate.... [Disappointed]
 
Posted by Gideon (# 17676) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Morlader:
A packed lunch in Cornish is "kroust".

Up here it's bait. Which may be in a bait box.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
In Toronto one might have added the Eatons -- not now -- and in many cities there was at least one family that would rank as upper. In Winnipeg it would have been the Richardsons, for example...

In Pasadena, we had the Van Valkenburgs: they actually owned Stately Wayne Manor from the old Batman television programme and whomever owned Millard House designed by Frank Lloyd Wright.
 
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 
Referring to the Atlantic as a pond when, in fact, it's an ocean?
 
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Is there a UK equivalent to "wrong side of the tracks"?

That description originated here because so many towns developed after the railways came through, so that the industries and industrial dwellings were on the "freight" side of the yards, while the business people lived on the "station" side of the tracks.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
It's a common expression here too. Although most of our towns predate the railways, nevertheless when it came the railway line often marked a division between the desirable and less desirable areas.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Is there a UK equivalent to "wrong side of the tracks"?

We say that in the UK too.
 
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Is there a UK equivalent to "wrong side of the tracks"?

We say that in the UK too.
Of course, the "wrong side" is on the other side of the tracks in the UK compared to the US.
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
So what did we say before the railways? I can't believe, given the class-consciousness of British society, that there wasn't some expression that placed people by their place of origin. Wrong side of the cart track?
 
Posted by QLib (# 43) on :
 
Below the salt.
 
Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
I would suspect that the equivalent term wasn't usable until the Industrial Revolution. Before that time, most of the country lived in villages or small towns when not purely rural, and the markers of the "ins" and the "outs" weren't as clear.

The railways (and, maybe the canals) allowed for worker-separation from the rest.

"Beyond the Pale" indicates a version of that attitude, but it is more racist/imperialist than class-oriented
 
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :
 
Below the salt, maybe?
 
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Two out of three cat - posters say 'below the salt': but that is an indication of current status. Was there an expression dealing with origin?

I can think of arriviste, upstart, counter-jumper for those considered to have moved out of their social class, but not immediately of an expression for what that class was. Though there were opprobrious term for particular trades - like 'prick louse' for a tailor.
 
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I would suspect that the equivalent term wasn't usable until the Industrial Revolution. Before that time, most of the country lived in villages or small towns when not purely rural, and the markers of the "ins" and the "outs" weren't as clear.

The railways (and, maybe the canals) allowed for worker-separation from the rest.

"Beyond the Pale" indicates a version of that attitude, but it is more racist/imperialist than class-oriented

Beyond the pale was a phrase I heard a lot as a child, for a person who was just not acceptable, but it wasn’t used in a racist way. It was often used about somebody who had done something really wrong, 'He's put himself beyond the pale'

It has it’s origins in the paling used for fencing. So somebody who was beyond the pale was an outsider, somebody from beyond the boundary of our safe space.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Yes it is racist but not the way you think! That is it has nothing to do with the colour of a persons skin.

Jengie
 
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
The origin of "beyond the pale" is not a paling fence as you describe it. The Pale was the area in Ireland immediately under English control and security. The areas beyond the Pale were under the control of the Anglo-Norman-Irish families, the Butlers, Ormondes and their ilk, and were said to be uncivilised and lawless.

[ 23. August 2013, 21:57: Message edited by: Gee D ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Two out of three cat - posters say 'below the salt': but that is an indication of current status. Was there an expression dealing with origin?

I can think of arriviste, upstart, counter-jumper for those considered to have moved out of their social class, but not immediately of an expression for what that class was.

Social climbers, nouveau riche... If you had to work for a living, instead of having inherited or married money, you could be looked down upon for being "in trade".
 
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The origin of "beyond the pale" is not a paling fence as you describe it. The Pale was the area in Ireland immediately under English control and security. The areas beyond the Pale were under the control of the Anglo-Norman-Irish families, the Butlers, Ormondes and their ilk, and were said to be uncivilised and lawless.

The phrase is older than that

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/beyond-the-pale.html
 
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The phrase is older than that

Your like says the Irish Pale was there in the 14th century; first use of the words in the literal sense (with no explicit reference to Ireland) 17th century. First use of the words in a metaphorical sense unstated.
 
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The phrase is older than that

Your like says the Irish Pale was there in the 14th century; first use of the words in the literal sense (with no explicit reference to Ireland) 17th century. First use of the words in a metaphorical sense unstated.
OED quotes Pale as fence or boundary (from Latin Palus; stake) used as early as 1330.

Use as a boundary or restriction which has been crossed or breached dates from c 1400

The meaning of 'a district or territory within determined grounds, or subject to a particular jurisdiction', first cited from 1560; 'the Frenche King went out of his own pale', 1600; 'The Tarquininans overran all the marches of the Roman pale.'

Pale relating to colour or complexion is from a different source; via Old French palle or pale from Latin pallidum.
 
Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Two out of three cat - posters say 'below the salt': but that is an indication of current status. Was there an expression dealing with origin?

I can think of arriviste, upstart, counter-jumper for those considered to have moved out of their social class, but not immediately of an expression for what that class was. Though there were opprobrious term for particular trades - like 'prick louse' for a tailor.

"Nabob" springs to mind. It refers to those made their fortunes in India with the East India Company and retired to England. Made of course ranges in meaning from robbed, plundered, pillaged and defrauded to merely hard bargaining and sharp dealing.

The word was in use by the early 18th Century.
 
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The phrase is older than that

Your like says the Irish Pale was there in the 14th century; first use of the words in the literal sense (with no explicit reference to Ireland) 17th century. First use of the words in a metaphorical sense unstated.
it was france that was th 14th century 'and France (the Pale of Calais, which was formed as early as 1360).'
 


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