Thread: Daily Office (yet again) Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
On another thread, Max signed off:
quote:
Max who said Morning Prayer with some Anglicans according to Common Worship Daily Prayer today and prefers the Catholic Divine Office!
I can think of several reasons why you would, but maybe if you spelt them out it would be worth discussing?

(The original Daily Office thread seems to have disappeared.)

[edited title - jlg/host]

[ 15. December 2008, 08:47: Message edited by: Ancient Mariner ]
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Fewer psalms? Disputes about peoples commemorated somewhat in the manner of RC saints, but not? Not enough anthems of our Lady?

[sorry, to clarify, those are speculative reasons for Max's preferences - not necessarily my own, although I'm in some sympathy with all of them!]

[ 24. November 2008, 17:09: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Fewer psalms? Disputes about peoples commemorated somewhat in the manner of RC saints, but not? Not enough anthems of our Lady?

[sorry, to clarify, those are speculative reasons for Max's preferences - not necessarily my own, although I'm in some sympathy with all of them!]

I'd add one of my own: CW's reticence to pray for the departed. [Frown]
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
Having used both Anglican and Roman Catholic systems of the Divine Office (I'm currently on a bit of a vacation), I find the lack of systematic reading of Scripture in the LOTH quite impoverishing. I'm much happier with the BCP and additional material.
 
Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :
 
I've used LOTH and Benedictine Prayer a few times for variety, but don't really care too much for the style of English used.
 
Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Common Worship Daily Prayer is.....

Complicated
In the Divine Office, the readings for the day are just there, one doesn't have a list that one has to consult in order to find out the readings which one then has to look up in a bible.

Too Long
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers.
We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.

Why?
Does it mess up the "Glory be..." which is shortened ending?
Everybody knows that the real Glory be goes:
"Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end" and there is only one acceptable variation and that's the one they use at Worth Abbey which is:
"Praise the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit both now and forever, the God who is, who was and is to come at the end of the ages"


Max.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers. We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.

I don't know what lectionary and psalm schedule the Mendip Hills people were using, but CW Morning Prayer using the standard ones should take only 20 minutes, maybe 30 with lots of silences and maybe hymns.
 
Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :
 
Here in the States, some Lutherans use "For Al the Saints." Ecumenical, 3 scripture lessons, one reading from the wider Church throughout time. Not bad, everything in one book. Anyone else use it?
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Common Worship Daily Prayer is.....

Some good points, Max, but:

quote:
Complicated
In the Divine Office, the readings for the day are just there, one doesn't have a list that one has to consult in order to find out the readings which one then has to look up in a bible.

Yes, it would be good if there was an edition of CWDP including the text of the readings, or at least giving references so that one didn't have to buy/download the full lectionary. But - Anglican tradition is to have substantial scripture readings at the Office; Anglicans are used to reading from the full Bible (or, some of them, the expurgated version!). That's only a disadvantage if you're saying the Office away from a church or similar place. Also, the RC Divine Office is designed to complement the daily eucharist which is not as common in Anglican circles, hence the lack of a Gospel reading.


quote:
Too Long
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers.
We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.

The prescribed readings are of course longer than for DO Morning Prayer, but about the same as the Office of Readings. There is no obligation to use two long readings at both Morning and Evening Offices. I would have thought the ration of psalms was rather shorter than in the DO... and in any case the lectionary usually allows you to say one only. There are too many words in the introductory part of the office; the intercessions are as long or short as one wants to make them.

Whether one prefers the Grail psalms to the amended ECUSA version in CW is a matter of taste. I like the former, but the rhythm of the latter is more attuned to Anglican ears brought up on Coverdale.

I can't imagine how a said weekday office could possibly take 50 minutes!

quote:
Why?
Does it mess up the "Glory be..." which is shortened ending?
Everybody knows that the real Glory be goes:
"Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end" and there is only one acceptable variation and that's the one they use at Worth Abbey which is:
"Praise the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit both now and forever, the God who is, who was and is to come at the end of the ages"


Max.

I tend to agree.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
Here in the States, some Lutherans use "For Al the Saints." Ecumenical, 3 scripture lessons, one reading from the wider Church throughout time. Not bad, everything in one book. Anyone else use it?

Welcome, uffda [tag words that are all too familiar to me].

I've considered For All the Saints, but I have made the mental switchover to NRSV, and I don't care to backtrack to the RSV again. My favorite Lutheran resource is Pfatteicher's phenomenal Daily Prayer of the Church, but it doesn't include the texts of the readings--only citations.

For common, everyday use, I use the Episcopal Church's Contemporary Office Book, a one-volume text with full Psalter, daily office, collects, and all readings for the 2-year lectionary in NRSV.

[ 24. November 2008, 21:24: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :
 
Martin L. wrote:

"but I have made the mental switchover to NRSV, and I don't care to backtrack to the RSV again."


I know what you mean, but to me the ecumenical 4th reading has really given me food for prayerful thought over the years. Plus the size of the book makes for easy mobility.

De gustibus non est disputandam!

[ 24. November 2008, 21:36: Message edited by: uffda ]
 
Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
I have never used CW:DP, but can well believe that, like the BCP, it becomes impossible to use unless you have a Bible with you. I dare say it was intended to be used in chapels rather than by people like me who perforce say the office in odd places as and when.

I have for some months been using Celebrating Common Prayer, whose English is vastly better than the Roman Office but whose structure makes it bit tedious outside the green seasons - virtually the same service every day between All Saints Day and Advent, yawn yawn.

Incidentally, I was in Blackwells in Oxford yesterday looking around in the religion section and found a book of the Roman Lauds and Vespers in Latin and English (called, surprisingly enough 'Lauds and Vespers) and made the interesting discovery, on comparing it with the 'official' Daily Office on the same shelf, that the English translation was completely different. How can this be?
 
Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
The readings are too long, the Psalms are too long, there are too many readings and there are too many psalms and there are too many prayers. We do Morning Prayer in about 15 minutes in our college, it took 50 minutes this morning in this small group in an evangelical Anglican Church in the deepest Mendip Hills.

I don't know what lectionary and psalm schedule the Mendip Hills people were using, but CW Morning Prayer using the standard ones should take only 20 minutes, maybe 30 with lots of silences and maybe hymns.
Oh come on it was Isaiah 40:1-14 and Revelation/Apocalypse 14:1-end of the world!

That's long! If it was Morning Prayer according to the Divine Office (we're on week 2 now) it would've been Jeremiah 15:16!


Max.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
CW:DP is a simplified version of the full CCP. If you want complicated Max, following the full CCP as morning prayer needs its own special booklet to tell you which day and additional readings to use.

We use CW:DP for morning prayer in a small group. Using a preface of the life of any saints for the day, both the readings, all the psalms and intercessions it takes 30 minutes. Not sure how you got it up to 50 minutes.

There is also an accompanying commentary booklet on the readings which lists the readings and psalms and gives a collect plus commentary on one of the readings. That doesn't follow all the saints.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
Martin L. wrote:

"but I have made the mental switchover to NRSV, and I don't care to backtrack to the RSV again."


I know what you mean, but to me the ecumenical 4th reading has really given me food for prayerful thought over the years. Plus the size of the book makes for easy mobility.

De gustibus non est disputandam!

I get the extra reading from Readings for the Daily Office from the Early Church (here).

I'm sure For all the saints is great, [sensitive Shipmates please plug your ears now] but I like the NRSV.

I also tend to switch from one breviary to another at will. Since I'm not part of any monastic community, and under no obligation to pray the office, I do what feels right. Sometimes that means something like Monastic Diurnal Revised or St. Helena Breviary. Sometimes that means the office from Evangelical Lutheran Worship, although when I use ELW I find that I miss the enriching variety of the missing canticles.

As for carrying the book around, it's not an issue for me. It stays at home. The good thing about the BCP79 Daily Office is that it is rather simplistic and quite easy to memorize.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:


Incidentally, I was in Blackwells in Oxford yesterday looking around in the religion section and found a book of the Roman Lauds and Vespers in Latin and English (called, surprisingly enough 'Lauds and Vespers) and made the interesting discovery, on comparing it with the 'official' Daily Office on the same shelf, that the English translation was completely different. How can this be?

The official translated is copyrighted,so presumably they wanted to get around that. Add to that, that the official translation is simply not as accurate as the one in the book you found. (I beleive I have the same book.)The preface says that he wanted the translation to tell people what the Latin meant, ad having spoken to the priest who was the editor, he wanted it to also be an aid for those learning Latin.
The translation used in 'Lauds and Vespers' is more poetic and beautiful in my opinion.
I gave up on all these translations a few months ago when I came across an extremely rare Diurnal for the Liturgia Horarum.
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
I have never used CW:DP, but can well believe that, like the BCP, it becomes impossible to use unless you have a Bible with you. I dare say it was intended to be used in chapels rather than by people like me who perforce say the office in odd places as and when.

I have for some months been using Celebrating Common Prayer, whose English is vastly better than the Roman Office but whose structure makes it bit tedious outside the green seasons - virtually the same service every day between All Saints Day and Advent, yawn yawn.


Using CW:DP without a Bible and lectionary is very possible, which is what I carry on planes and ships, etc. There are plenty of lessons printed in the Prayer During the Day section and you can use one of those for the office. Or even two. Or p'raps one of the canticles as a lesson, if one isn't too anal about these things.

I agree about Celebrating Common Prayer and its repetitiveness. CW:DP is CCP's grown child and they bear a family resemblance. CW:DP has a couple more canticles on offer as options, but though the English used in CW:DP is more uplifting than the RC Divine Office, the DO has much, much better intercessions. Common Worship seasonal intercessions grown dull after two or three days.

Common Worship is a very model of modern major offices. The next overhaul needs to look at the translation of the Psalms, ridding the world of the ubiquitous iniquitous WHO for God, (O God who [Projectile] ) unnatural in English in 1549 and in 2008 the only thing I'll be sure to change in the collects.
 
Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
Mama Thomas scripsit: "I agree about Celebrating Common Prayer and its repetitiveness. CW:DP is CCP's grown child and they bear a family resemblance. CW:DP has a couple more canticles on offer as options, but though the English used in CW:DP is more uplifting than the RC Divine Office, the DO has much, much better intercessions. Common Worship seasonal intercessions grown dull after two or three days."

Might be an idea to combine the two, then. Could get fiddly, juggling books on a train or plane ...
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Oh come on it was Isaiah 40:1-14 and Revelation/Apocalypse 14:1-end of the world!

That's long! If it was Morning Prayer according to the Divine Office (we're on week 2 now) it would've been Jeremiah 15:16!

You're not comparing like with like, though: how long were the readings in the Office of Readings?

Thurible
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Oh come on it was Isaiah 40:1-14 and Revelation/Apocalypse 14:1-end of the world!

That's long! If it was Morning Prayer according to the Divine Office (we're on week 2 now) it would've been Jeremiah 15:16!

You're not comparing like with like, though: how long were the readings in the Office of Readings?

Thurible

Exactly - the full Roman Catholic service of morning prayer should include both the Office of Readings (Vigils, Matins) with Lauds immediately following.

If Jeremiah 15:16 was all the Scriptural reading you were getting this would be woefully impoverished as you surely realise!
I can't see how you get close to fifty minutes though...
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
There must have been something else going on for it to take 50 minutes!

The fixed parts of Common Worship Daily Prayer take about 10 minutes to read aloud, 15 with pregnant pauses. Its shorter than the BCP Morning and Evening Prayer and you can get through them with readings but without hymns or sermon in 15 minutes. Said slowly and reverently with chanting and with a long psalm any one of those offices might take maybe twenty-five to thirty minutes. As is proved week after week on the BBC and almost every Anglican cathedral in the land. (Rushed through with silent readings you could do them in ten)

So to get to 50 minutes just because of long readings you would need really long readings. Thirty to forty minutes of readings. Revelation 14 doesn't cut it. You could read from there to the end of the book and then some!

I think something else must have been going on and I think Max knows what it is! We demand the truth! There wasn't a sermon was there Max? Inquiring minds want to know!
 
Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
So to get to 50 minutes just because of long readings you would need really long readings. Thirty to forty minutes of readings. Revelation 14 doesn't cut it. You could read from there to the end of the book and then some!

Not in Somerset.
 
Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There must have been something else going on for it to take 50 minutes!

The fixed parts of Common Worship Daily Prayer take about 10 minutes to read aloud, 15 with pregnant pauses. Its shorter than the BCP Morning and Evening Prayer and you can get through them with readings but without hymns or sermon in 15 minutes. Said slowly and reverently with chanting and with a long psalm any one of those offices might take maybe twenty-five to thirty minutes. As is proved week after week on the BBC and almost every Anglican cathedral in the land. (Rushed through with silent readings you could do them in ten)

So to get to 50 minutes just because of long readings you would need really long readings. Thirty to forty minutes of readings. Revelation 14 doesn't cut it. You could read from there to the end of the book and then some!

I think something else must have been going on and I think Max knows what it is! We demand the truth! There wasn't a sermon was there Max? Inquiring minds want to know!

No sermon, there was about 2 minutes of quiet reflection time after each reading, but the longest time actually was spend flicking through the books and trying to find the readings from the grids.


Max.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
No sermon, there was about 2 minutes of quiet reflection time after each reading, but the longest time actually was spend flicking through the books and trying to find the readings from the grids.

It's a good practice to mark these before the service, of course.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The readings for Morning Prayer follow on. We've been reading Revelation from chapter 1 since the beginning of November. The Isaiah only started on Monday, but why not mark up before you start?
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
No sermon, there was about 2 minutes of quiet reflection time after each reading, but the longest time actually was spend flicking through the books and trying to find the readings from the grids.

It's a good practice to mark these before the service, of course.
quote:
Curiosity killed...
but why not mark up before you start?

Indeed, I enjoy those precious preparation minutes...time to unwind and focus before the office. There's nothing more satisfying than having it all ready to go. It takes me six or seven markers* to manage some breviaries, but I pray a smooth office once everything is set up. [Cool]


*Not counting the fixed markers I keep for First Vespers, just in case! [Biased]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
6 or 7 markers? Well as we have 30 or 35 minutes that means Max's mates were taking 5 minutes a time.

So has it come to this, that a group of theologians and ordination candidates take FIVE MINUTES to find each reading in the Bible????

The youth of today! [Disappointed]
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
Post-it notes, Max. Live 'em, love 'em.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Two questions/topics for discussion:

i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship

Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?

I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?

ii) Lectionaries

As I'm going to Mass less often than I was before, I'm looking to use rather more scripture in the office than the Breviary offers.

The problem is that CW:DP/BCP + Hunwicke + Bible + English Hymnal is a bit much to stick in my pocket/cart around in my bag so am looking for a one volume thingy.

Bede's American Successor pointed me in the direction of tECUSA's one volume edition a while back but that looks a bit pricey.

Canterbury Press have reissued the 1928 BCP with the 1922 lections in - but I assume they're in the Authorised/Revised Version and I can't see me managing to stay awake with that.

What other options are there?

Also, is it important to use a 'living' lectionary? Would it make sense for an English Anglican to use an American lectionary (and, yes, I do think it makes sense for an English Anglican to use the Catholic lectionary before anyone starts!)? Is the American lectionary, in fact, different to the English one?

Opinions, views, etc., sought.

Thurible

[ 08. December 2008, 12:04: Message edited by: Thurible ]
 
Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :
 
Well, the website calendar's automated, obviously, and not taking account of which day of the week it is.

Another thread pointed me towards the New Catholic Bible, which has tables for daily mass readings and the Breviary readings, could be useful for you.
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
As I'm going to Mass less often than I was before, I'm looking to use rather more scripture in the office than the Breviary offers.

The problem is that CW:DP/BCP + Hunwicke + Bible + English Hymnal is a bit much to stick in my pocket/cart around in my bag so am looking for a one volume thingy.

Thurible, are you looking for a volume that includes both Prayer-Book style offices *and* Catholic supplements like office hymns, antiphons, collects for feast days, etc.? Must it also include the office lessons?

If the former, I *highly recommend* the Monastic Breviary edited by a brother of the Order of the Holy Cross, an Anglican Benedictine order. Mattins, Diurnum (noonday), Vespers and monastic Compline, all with appropriate hymns and etc. Easy to learn to use, in stately but modern English. I use it, and can answer any question you have about a day's given hours if you FB-mail me. Call the Holy Cross shop number to arrange to have it shipped to the UK, if you're interested.

All that said, regarding my latter question, the Breviary's tables of lessons are those of the US 1979 BCP, and it does not include lessons appended in the back like the recent 1928/1922 volume that you cite. That might be a blessing in disguise for you--you could cart along the Bible edition of your choice, and use the CW lectionary, or Fr. Hunwicke's lessons for Mattins and Evensong, if you choose. The Breviary has its own substantial but feasible psalm schema, and short readings are included for Diurnum and Compline.
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
I should also mention that the Monastic Breviary does provide I Vespers for many feasts.
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
As does the Book of Alternative Services and, if I'm not mistaken, the 1979 BCP. I'd be rather surprised if CW did not.

Sundays, however, do not typically have I Evensong, at least not explicitly.

[ 08. December 2008, 14:51: Message edited by: LQ ]
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
I'm not mistaken, the 1979 BCP [includes Vespers].
I think you may be. According to Dr. Hatchett (joke writes self here) the editors of the '79 felt that I Vespers generally included lections that did little to illuminate the saint or feast being observed, and further waylaid the supposed lectio continua offered by the '79 office lectionary.

[ 08. December 2008, 14:56: Message edited by: Brian M ]
 
Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
I just checked here. Several "Eves" of feasts have their own Evensong, just as in the BAS.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship

Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?

I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?

I can't speak for Durham Cathedral. However, it is not rare for cathedrals and other churches to keep 'unofficial' First Evensongs at the whim of whoever is in authority, especially if the day would otherwise be ferial. This includes Evensnog on Ordinary Sundays being Of the Saint of the Following Day which can be found sporadically even in rather low churches. As to any official provision I know no more than your good self!
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I find the Common Worship Daily Office takes about the same amount of time as the 1662 BCP with the modern lectionary. That is to say 20 to 22 minutes in the morning and 15 to 17 minutes in the evening. However, I mark up the books before hand, and don't try any complicated variations.

My own personal favourites for the Daily Office are the 1662 BCP with the 1922 lection and the Anglican Breviary.

I always say the 1662 BCP Office with a couple of Anglo-Catholic enrichments - the Office Hymn, appropriate Collects for minor feast days, and Antiphons on the Benedictus and the Magnificat, which are fairly harmless additions.

The Anglican Breviary which is very rich in its material, but is a bugger to learn. When I am on a "Breviary kick" I use the 1960 rubrics with one adaption. That adaption is that instead of omitting Matins lessons 8 and 9 on Sunday I tack them on from the end of 7. That preserves more of the useful stuff from the Early Fathers that sadly got dumped in the John XXIII revision of the Breviary.

PD
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
quote:
I'm not mistaken, the 1979 BCP [includes Vespers].
I think you may be. According to Dr. Hatchett (joke writes self here) the editors of the '79 felt that I Vespers generally included lections that did little to illuminate the saint or feast being observed, and further waylaid the supposed lectio continua offered by the '79 office lectionary.
The end of the BCP 1979 lectionary does provide some propers for eves of apostles, etc., and we sometimes use them here, or we check The Prayer Book Office to see what what's-his-name suggests. Howard Galley...that's his name. I'm getting slower in retrieving names from the central database in my old age.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Two questions/topics for discussion:

i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship

Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?

I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?

It's the website that's wrong. CW:DP says (p 106) 'At Evening Prayer on Saturday the Collect, canticles and refrains for the Sunday following are used (except where the Saturday itself is a Principal Feast or Festival*, Christmas Eve or Easter Eve).'

*St Nicholas is not a 'Festival' according to the CW Calendar.
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
Slightly off topic. I use Christian Prayer. It does not have some of the new feasts, such as Juan Diego for 9 December. Are the propers for this feast online anywhere?
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Universalis has daily propers - and I assume they're up to date.

There's an American supplement available from Amazon but I'm not sure quite how up to date that is.

Thurible
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
I tried Universalis. They have today as the Tuesday of the Second Week of Advent or St Juan Diego, but give no propers for poor old Juan.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Universalis has daily propers - and I assume they're up to date.Thurible

Less up to date is their Office of Readings - occasionally you get the scriptural reading but they haven't got round to the 2nd (usually Patristic) one.

Being a bit of an anal retentive, this upsets me far too much.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Two questions/topics for discussion:

i) First Evening Prayer in Common Worship

Does it not happen? Not having a breviary or CW+Hunwicke+Bible+Hymnal to hand on Saturday evening, I logged onto the online version of CW:DP to say First Vespers of Advent II and was confronted by Evening Prayer of St Nicholas. What's that about?

I confess my ignorance to do with most things modern Anglican office related but I'd have thought, given the various other 'high churchisms' in CW, they'd have had First Evening Prayer. I wouldn't put any money on it but I think that Durham Cathedral kept Saturday evening as a vigil of the Sunday. Was this them being naughty?

It's the website that's wrong. CW:DP says (p 106) 'At Evening Prayer on Saturday the Collect, canticles and refrains for the Sunday following are used (except where the Saturday itself is a Principal Feast or Festival*, Christmas Eve or Easter Eve).'

*St Nicholas is not a 'Festival' according to the CW Calendar.

I sometimes check in at the Oremus.org CW iffice site. I think when they observe a minor saint's day the office is that of the season with the saint being observed only with the antiphon for the Gospel Canticle and the concluding collect. Which, if I recall correctly as a sometimes user of Christian Prayer, is basically the same way Roman rite memorials are observed.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Thank you for suggestions and comments, etc.

With regard to lectionaries, I'm quite interested in the idea of whether or not we should be 'heterodox' in our use of them.

Instinctively, as an English Anglican, I would use, in order of preference, the lectionary of the Catholic Church in England and Wales followed by the CW lectionary. This is because I'm a modern rite English Anglican.

However, the former's a bit brief if you're not combined it with the eucharistic lectionary and the latter cuts bits out. I could, of course, use a Read Through The Bible in a Year schema to avoid cutting things out but this wouldn't tie in with the calendar I was using - and I wouldn't be reading the same lections as anyone else praying the Office.

Does this matter? I'd be grateful for people's thoughts.

Thurible
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I could, of course, use a Read Through The Bible in a Year schema to avoid cutting things out but this wouldn't tie in with the calendar I was using - and I wouldn't be reading the same lections as anyone else praying the Office.

I once had a conversation with a trusted acquaintance in an AC shrine church about sufficient "coverage" in daily office lectionaries. At the time I was using the English 1922 lectionary privately, while his parish uses the American 1945 lectionary for public recitation of the offices. I argued that the '22 was the better lectionary, as it covered far more Scripture in a year. He argued that much of what was cut out of the '45--the accounts of battles, the genealogies, the other lengthy historical accounts--ought best to be seen as the historical framework for revelation, not revelation itself, and that as Catholics we ought not to be preoccupied by covering every word of scripture every year. Made sense to me anyway.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
In what way does the Catholic (office) lectionary not cut bits out, if it is briefer than the Anglican one? And do you mean the latter omits the 'Apocrypha'? Because I don't think that is true - alternatives are always provided.

[question to Thurible, re above]

[ 09. December 2008, 19:03: Message edited by: Angloid ]
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I'm picking these at random, without a Bible to hand, but there's a difference between "Deuteronomy 2:6-7" and "Deuteronomy 2:1-2, 3, 7, 20-23, 30-38". The CW lectionary always reminds me rather of the latter. I'd like short lections or extended passages.

Thurible
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Thurible, the Common Worship Morning Prayer lectionary is chunks of continuous reading. The bits it misses out are OT chapters or half chapters. This year, we have read through both books of both Samuel and Kings, and quite often read half a chapter and skipped the rest or skipped an entire chapter (good whitewash job on David for the most part). But for the last month or so, it has been continuous readings - all of Daniel alongside Revelation, when Daniel ran out, the OT reading moved to the second book of Isaiah. Now Revelation has finished the NT readings are 1 Thessalonians. This morning it was chapter 46 of Isaiah, chapter 45 was split in two, over Saturday and Monday, and 1 Thes 2:1-12, chapter 1 being read yesterday.

The other reason a section is skipped is that a saint or holy day overrides the readings, and the lectionary carries on regardless while the readings for Luke or whoever are inserted.

[eta - I know I'm not the only person who reads the bits skipped anyway]

[ 09. December 2008, 22:49: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Thanks for that.

As to the supplement to the Breviary I mentioned, it's available here (Amazon.com) and here (.co.uk).

Thurible
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Slightly off topic. I use Christian Prayer. It does not have some of the new feasts, such as Juan Diego for 9 December. Are the propers for this feast online anywhere?

New Yorker, I'm really sorry I didn't have enough time to answer this yesterday but but when I get a chance (today or tomorrow)I'll share the propers given in the Latin American edition of the Liturgy of the Hours, under Proper of the Saints for Mexico. Quick outline: the 2nd Reading of the Office of Readings is from a speech given by John Paul II on St. Juan Diego (I think for his canonization), a responsory, and a closing prayer. The rest may be taken from the Common of Holy Men and Women. I'll give the details later.

Maybe it's too late for this year but there's always next. In the meantime you could pray his office as a private devotion, as I might if I miss a favored saint's feast day.
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
*Bumping this thread with a query about minutiæ*

My (newly acquired) secondhand Monastic Diurnal (OUP, 1932, 1940 reprint) has verse 116 of Psalm 119 (Monday at Terce) printed entirely in upper case. I can't see anything about that in the rubrics, so it is perhaps a typographical error (rare for the OUP). Or does anyone have an alternative explanation? Maybe those using the Lancelot Andrewes Monastic Diurnal or other OUP reprints would check to see if it is printed like that in their edition.

Not that it matters of course. I'm simply curious.
 
Posted by T.B.Cherubim (# 11582) on :
 
My 1956 reprint of the Monastic Diurnal does not have this peculiarity. Perhaps it was a very unusual OUP mistake?
 
Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :
 
What do people do about the Breviary's Common of Doctors of the Church when a female doctor is celebrated? The liturgy for Doctors conflates so much with Pastors, and indeed uses heavily masculine language in its own brief section.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Common of Holy Women.

I know people who use Common of Virgins, but I don't like this.
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by T.B.Cherubim:
My 1956 reprint of the Monastic Diurnal does not have this peculiarity. Perhaps it was a very unusual OUP mistake?

Thanks for checking. Mine was printed in wartime, after all.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cg:
quote:
Originally posted by T.B.Cherubim:
My 1956 reprint of the Monastic Diurnal does not have this peculiarity. Perhaps it was a very unusual OUP mistake?

Thanks for checking. Mine was printed in wartime, after all.
The Lancelot Andrewes Press reprint has the all-caps verse. An extra-fervent wartime plea, perhaps, as you suggest.
 
Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 
This isn't Kerygmania with its requirements, but may I ask if this is the verse? Sustain me according to your promise, that I may live. and let me not be disappointed in my hope.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
This isn't Kerygmania with its requirements, but may I ask if this is the verse? Sustain me according to your promise, that I may live. and let me not be disappointed in my hope.

That is correct. Just that verse is printed in caps and small caps in some editions of the Oxford/Canon Douglas Monastic Diurnal.
 
Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 
Be it far from me to accuse the sacred psalmist of being a One-tune Charlie, from Aleph to Taw, and I congratulate him for saying practically the same thing 176 times, but I thought good to get the verse quoted to help figure out why it, alone, over its many brothers and sisters, gets this treatment. Was it someone's motto, perhaps?
 
Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
Maybe this capitalised psalm verse will feature as a clue in a future Da Vinci Code-style novel or conspiracy book about a Western-Rite Orthodox Plot ...
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
You could be on the right track, chiltern_hundred. Given the date (1940), it may be like that for the Use of the Enigma Code-cracking team. However, the LA press edition was (I think) produced as a facsimile of the first OUP edition (1932) so it's likely that it dates back to then and is not a wartime slip after all. Does anyone have the 1932 or 1935 edition?

The LA Press Monastic Matins is not without an occasional more ordinary typo: Ps. 68:13 (Wed. p.54) where 'Thou' should be 'Though'.
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cg:
However, the LA press edition was (I think) produced as a facsimile of the first OUP edition (1932) so it's likely that it dates back to then and is not a wartime slip after all.

The LAP edition is a resetting of the 1963 OOP edition. Note the second set of rubrics in the front, which implement the 1960s reforms to the use of the Breviarium.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
Ladies and Gentlemen:

The O Antiphons.

Who's doin' 'em?

[ 18. December 2008, 02:05: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
 
Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
Spiffy, you mean

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/church_year/sapientiatide_the_great_o_anti.php

(web address corrected, but I don't do UBB code yet)
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Oh yes! (But then they are in the breviary I use anyway.)
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brian M:
The LAP edition is a resetting of the 1963 OOP edition. Note the second set of rubrics in the front, which implement the 1960s reforms to the use of the Breviarium.[/QB]

I don't have a copy of the LAP edition so I was guessing. But that just makes T.B.Cherubim's 1956 reprint where the mistake has been corrected (i.e. putting the verse in question into lower case) all the more odd. Why would anyone have restored an evident error? Perhaps the LAP resetting in fact used the text of an earlier OUP reprint than that of 1963 and the second set of rubrics was all that came from the 1963 reprint.
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Spiffy, you mean

[url=http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/church_year/sapientiatide_the_great_o_anti.php ]link[/url]

(web address corrected, but I don't do UBB code yet)

Erm, yes. [Hot and Hormonal] You will all be pleased to know that my bifocals will be ready on St. Stephen's Day, so that the characters on the screen will actually resemble letters instead of pretty grey blobs.

quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?

You buy me the iPhone, and I'll use the iBreviary.

[Edit: to fix scroll lock.]

[ 21. April 2009, 17:26: Message edited by: Hart ]
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?

My S. Barnabas Society and Pius XII holy cards won't stay in it.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Spiffy, you mean

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/church_year/sapientiatide_the_great_o_anti.php

(web address corrected, but I don't do UBB code yet)

[pedantic tangent] The writer of the article is incorrect in saying that the O Antiphons are not included in any official Anglican liturgy. ( Maybe he meant 'in the USA' ). Common Worship: Daily Prayer of the C OF E prints them, beginning with O Sapientia on 17 December in line with modern RC practice. [/pedantic tangent]
 
Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?

Cuz, it's not a book.

Next question?
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
What? Everyone is still using printed materials for the Daily Office? Why not iBreviary?

I was using online resouces (not iBreviary) before my printed Monastic Diurnal and Monastic Matins arrived, but I didn't feel that I was truly praying the Office. Using the books allows me to bow, stand or kneel as appropriate, pause for reflection, and so forth, and generally feel that I making the prayer my own. It also allows me to have more electronic-free time in my day.
 
Posted by Paul of Aquileia (# 12426) on :
 
Welcome aboard, cg!

Ps 119:116, "Sustain me O God," cited earlier, is the key verse in the Benedictine monastic profession rite. It is thrice chanted responsively by the professing monk and the choir, each time in a higher pitch.

I suppose that whoever printed the book may also have had that in mind...
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Ah, thank you so much, Paul of A. That's a wonderfully satisfying explanation, and I'm sure it's the correct one.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I'll share the propers given in the Latin American edition of the Liturgy of the Hours

Sorry I couldn't get back to this sooner but I supppose it's better late than never. Here are my somewhat awkward translations of the propers for St. Juan Diego from the Latin American LOTH:

In the Office of Readings, the second respnsory is based on 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 and St. Luke 1:51-52.

R. God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong, even that which is worth nothing, * so that no one can boast before God.

V. He made felt the strength of His arm and exalted the humble.

R. So that no one can boast before God.

The second reading is from the decree of canonization. I couldn't find the text online. I could translate it too, but am not sure if it would be ok to post it.

The final prayer for his feast goes like this:

"O God of ours, who by means of the blessed Juan Diego showed your people the love of the most holy Virgin Mary, grant us by his intercession, that by obeying the counsels of our Mother of Guadalupe, we may always accomplish your will. Through Our Lord Jesus Christ your son."
 
Posted by scribbler (# 12268) on :
 
I just got ibreviary today for my new iPhone. Very wonderful for the price. Sure, it is not a substitute for the romance and resonance of a book, but the app was ideal for praying vespers while waiting for "Frost/Nixon" to start. Where were the dead trees then?
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I just got ibreviary today for my new iPhone. Very wonderful for the price. Sure, it is not a substitute for the romance and resonance of a book, but the app was ideal for praying vespers while waiting for "Frost/Nixon" to start. Where were the dead trees then?

Is it available in English? If so, from whom?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
I just got ibreviary today for my new iPhone. Very wonderful for the price. Sure, it is not a substitute for the romance and resonance of a book, but the app was ideal for praying vespers while waiting for "Frost/Nixon" to start. Where were the dead trees then?

Is it available in English? If so, from whom?
From iTunes, I'm told.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cg:
Using the books allows me to bow, stand or kneel as appropriate, pause for reflection, and so forth, and generally feel that I making the prayer my own.

Having recently been reunited with the majority of my library, I'm back to prayerbooks but, when praying the office at my computer, I manage to do all the above. It's a lot harder to feel inclined so to do but managable.

Thurible

[ 29. December 2008, 22:37: Message edited by: Thurible ]
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
[pedantic tangent] The writer of the article is incorrect in saying that the O Antiphons are not included in any official Anglican liturgy. ( Maybe he meant 'in the USA' ). Common Worship: Daily Prayer of the C OF E prints them, beginning with O Sapientia on 17 December in line with modern RC practice. [/pedantic tangent]

Hmm--didn't know that. In which case I would have said something like "hasn't appeared in any official Anglican liturgy until the current English Common Worship" or some such. The point is that the date occurs in the kalendar, but the antiphons are absent from the books--until now.

Correction duly noted...

[Edit: code]

[ 31. December 2008, 10:08: Message edited by: Hart ]
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
The O Antiphons are in Celebrating Common Prayer too. It was pretty much official use in Salisbury in the 90s.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
Well--that just goes to show that I need to read up on the English materials post 1928... [Razz]

Thanks for the further correction!
 
Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
Spiffy, you mean

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/church_year/sapientiatide_the_great_o_anti.php


The writer of the article is incorrect in saying that the O Antiphons are not included in any official Anglican liturgy. ( Maybe he meant 'in the USA' ). Common Worship: Daily Prayer of the C OF E prints them, beginning with O Sapientia on 17 December in line with modern RC practice.
He also errs when he says "If the missing optional antiphon is used, it should be used on the 23rd and the others moved back one day".

He means that the others should be moved forward one day. When something happens sooner than otherwise, it is moved forward.
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
At least those of us who pray the Office can celebrate Epiphany on the right day, even if none of our local churches do. But can anyone explain to me a quirk of the Epiphany monastic Office that has been puzzling me. Both the Matins and Vespers hymn Hostis Herodes impie, and the antiphons for the Benedictus and the Magnificat in the Lauds and II Vespers respectively of the Epiphany (in the Monastic Diurnal) seem to be celebrating the Epiphany in combination with the Baptism of Jesus and with the miracle at Cana. Was there once a tradition that that all three feasts were jointly celebrated?
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cg:
At least those of us who pray the Office can celebrate Epiphany on the right day, even if none of our local churches do. But can anyone explain to me a quirk of the Epiphany monastic Office that has been puzzling me. Both the Matins and Vespers hymn Hostis Herodes impie, and the antiphons for the Benedictus and the Magnificat in the Lauds and II Vespers respectively of the Epiphany (in the Monastic Diurnal) seem to be celebrating the Epiphany in combination with the Baptism of Jesus and with the miracle at Cana. Was there once a tradition that that all three feasts were jointly celebrated?

More accurately - the Epiphany consists of three thematically linked aspects. The Adoration of the Magi, the Baptism of Christ and the Miracle at Cana. In these three ways, Christ was revealed as Messiah before all the Nations, in preparation for His earthly ministry.

Because of its proximity to Christmas, the arrival of the Magi at the Christ-Child is the part which has been most emphasised in the Western Church for some centuries now. The Baptism has been moved onto a Feast of its own whilst the first Miracle forms the Gospel reading of the Sunday following. However, historically all three were part of the same Feast and there are still many refernces to this lurking around, especially in older works.

Does this help?
[Smile]
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
historically all three were part of the same Feast and there are still many refernces to this lurking around, especially in older works.

Does this help?
[Smile]

Yes, indeed it does. Thank you for enlarging my understanding, and confirming my guess by putting my query into its full context.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
The CofE Common Worship lectionary prescribes Isaiah 60 ("Arise, shine for your light has come") & John 2 (water into wine) for the Evening Prayer service for Epiphany - we used them on Sunday.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
The medieval Golden Legend also states that in addition to the preceding three it was the day on which Christ fed the five thousand, citing Bede. (I'm wary of this--it's not in his Epiphany sermons that I know of but I haven't checked his commentaries...)

The antiphon on the Mag for 2nd Vespers makes the first three explicit.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the Ænglican:
The medieval Golden Legend also states that in addition to the preceding three it was the day on which Christ fed the five thousand, citing Bede. (I'm wary of this--it's not in his Epiphany sermons that I know of but I haven't checked his commentaries...)


Interesting; this link was mentioned during the homily at the Mass I attended yesterday.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
Fascinating! The Golden Legend is the earliest source I can find for this tradition. As I said it's not in Bede AFAIK, nor is it mentioned by Rabanus Maurus nor tenth century English sources.

Anybody know differently?
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Matins from Saint Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter (Lancelot Andrewes Press, 2002), page 145:

First psquiggle: Venite... there are a zillion settings, for this and other canticles. How do you choose which setting to use? Also, do you choose the same Tone or Mode for all the canticles (mentioned in later psquiigles), or do you mix and match?

Second psquiggle: What is an Office Hymn? Is it included in this book? If not, where do you find it? How do you choose it?
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
What is an Office Hymn? Is it included in this book? If not, where do you find it? How do you choose it?

This is a hymn proper to the day, season, or feast, which was sung before the gospel canticle in the breviary offices and is often added to BCP offices by Anglo-Catholics. Your best bet may be to pick up a copy of the ENGLISH HYMNAL (NOT the NEW ENGLISH HYMNAL) and follow Fr. Dearmer's handy tables in the back for appropriate hymns at "M" and "E."
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
The Anglican Breviary has an even better selection than the EH--ALL of them. TECs 1940 has at least 8 office hymns, in very good translation too.
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Matins from Saint Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter (Lancelot Andrewes Press, 2002), page 145:

That should be page 247.

Thank you, Brian M and Mama Thomas, about the office hymns. My bedside table currently has BCP 1979, Bible RSV, St. Dunstans', and Hymnal 1982. Looks like there's room for Anglican Breviary (oh, that seductive word all) and Hymnal 1940 (the hymnal I grew up with).
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
Thank you Lord, for J.M. Neale. Amen. He did wonders to bring the glories of early Latin (and Eastern!) Christian spirituality to the English speaking world. But I don't want to sound 'bad' but the 1982 seems to waffle between the droning monotony of its heavy organ/choir pieces and unsingable service music and cutesy 70s ditties.

There is real meat in the office hymns. Not at all sure why they were eliminated in the 82 as such (though a few are there without being marked as such).
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Ah, turns out St. Dunstan's gives more info in §17, "The Office Hymn," pages 237-238. In addition to the English Hymnal and 1940 Hymnal, it cites Saint Ambrose Hymnal and Hymns Ancient And Modern as sources for most or some of them. However it misses Mama Thomas' wonderful citation of Anglican Breviary for all of them.

Another question:

Saint Dunstan's says: "As with all Gospel canticles, the intonation to the tone is sung throughout the canticle, at the beginning of each verse." (e.g. § 14, page 236; § 19, page 238.) Why?
 
Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Saint Dunstan's says: "As with all Gospel canticles, the intonation to the tone is sung throughout the canticle, at the beginning of each verse." (e.g. § 14, page 236; § 19, page 238.) Why?

Good question! It says here that it's "for the sake of solemnity."

And that makes sense, to me: the Gospel Canticles are important, and sort of the centerpiece of each Office - so they get more emphasis, and this is a good way to do it.

I do wonder how old this custom is, though....
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
St. Dunstan's gives more info in §17, "The Office Hymn," pages 237-238. In addition to the English Hymnal and 1940 Hymnal, it cites Saint Ambrose Hymnal and Hymns Ancient And Modern as sources for most or some of them. However it misses Mama Thomas' wonderful citation of Anglican Breviary for all of them.

Nice as that is, its usefulness may depend on whether you plan to observe the full Universal Kalendar in the AB, or the more simplified kalendar found in most classic BCPs. I found that when I wanted to keep up with, say, the actual 1979 US BCP kalendar, it was easier to consult Fr. Dearmer's tables in the back of the English Hymnal and nail the hymn in one than to ask myself, "should I use the Matins or Lauds hymn, should I observe this lesser feast, on this day, etc."
 
Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Ah, that is excellently helpful, Brian M. English Hymnal sounds like the right thing for me.

[ETA: I wonder what the Saint Ambrose Hymnal is. Have I avoided Breviary Collectionitis only to find myself seduced by the siren song of Hymnal Collectionitis?!?]

[ 22. April 2009, 14:58: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I wonder what the Saint Ambrose Hymnal is.

The SAH is a hymnal used by certain Western Rite Orthodox parishes. It is out of print.
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Saint Dunstan's says: "As with all Gospel canticles, the intonation to the tone is sung throughout the canticle, at the beginning of each verse." (e.g. § 14, page 236; § 19, page 238.) Why?

Good question! It says here that it's "for the sake of solemnity."

And that makes sense, to me: the Gospel Canticles are important, and sort of the centerpiece of each Office - so they get more emphasis, and this is a good way to do it.

I do wonder how old this custom is, though....

It's at least as old as the Liber Usualis.
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
How do I know what week I am in in Benedictine Daily Prayer, in terms of the short readings? Also, where can the ends of concluding prayers ("through Jesus . . . " etc.) be found in this book?
 
Posted by catholicedinburgh (# 12668) on :
 
Hello

I hope someone can help me. During Eastertide, the psalms at Compline are chanted to an alternative tone in the Monastic Diurnal Noted. I have heard the tone and it is lovely, however I have forgotten how it goes and when I try it the last section doesn't sound correct. Does anyone have a link where the tone is played please.

Thanks
 
Posted by scribbler (# 12268) on :
 
Does anyone know if the British Morning and Evening Prayer version of the RC Office differs substantially from its American counterpart, Christian Prayer? I use the latter occasionally, but the '70s kitsch of its illustrations and some of the hymn selections grate on me. I also don't like Christian Prayer's translations of the gospel canticles, but I imagine those might be the same. I'm considering importing Morning and Evening Prayer, but I don't want to pay to ship it across the pond if it's identical to what I already have!
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
The hymns are apparently better but I think they're often shoddy and tend to use the English Hymnal with it. It's Morning, Evening and Night Prayer. The psalter is the Grail and the lections tend to be the Jerusalem. The intercessions are alright.

It's at home and I'm not so I'm afraid I can't tell you more at the moment.

Thurible
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
You know that the hymn suggestions in LOTH are just that: suggestions? If you don't like them (and some of them are terrible... 44 anyone?), just use another hymnal, or don't sing a hymn. In private use, I only sing a hymn on Sundays or Solemnities. In communal celebrations, we always sing a hymn, but we don't always take it from the book.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
You know that the hymn suggestions in LOTH are just that: suggestions? If you don't like them (and some of them are terrible... 44 anyone?), just use another hymnal, or don't sing a hymn. In private use, I only sing a hymn on Sundays or Solemnities. In communal celebrations, we always sing a hymn, but we don't always take it from the book.

Some of the hymns in LOTH suck, and some really suck! Being the sort of guy who does the usual Anglo-Catholic mish-mash I use the BCP for MP and EP and LOTH for Office of Readings, Midday Prayer, and Compline. In the case of OOR I have a card with the traditional Matins hymns on it to substitute for the appointed hymns. As I usually say OOR fairly early in the day using the old Matins hymns works OK.

I do wish someone would overhaul LOTH, restoring the traditional hymns at least as alternatives to the present random selections. Some of the 1960s stuff in there is at best blah and at worse barf. The early 1970s was not a good time to be overhauling the liturgy and it is to be hoped that the translation of the Divine Office made them will soon be replaced by something in line with the new translation of the Mass that we are told is coming shortly.

PD
 
Posted by scribbler (# 12268) on :
 
Thank you for the information. To make matters worse, I usually just say the hymns aloud since I can't carry a tune in a bucket; this just accentuates it. I think I'll consider just omitting them as advised. Part of my problem is lack of consistency: switching between the 1928 BCP (with various lectionaries and supplements) and the RCC office, sprinkled with generous periods of nothing, does not a healthy practice make.

Why am I afraid of Daily Office commitment? [Ultra confused]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
Thank you for the information. To make matters worse, I usually just say the hymns aloud since I can't carry a tune in a bucket; this just accentuates it. I think I'll consider just omitting them as advised. Part of my problem is lack of consistency: switching between the 1928 BCP (with various lectionaries and supplements) and the RCC office, sprinkled with generous periods of nothing, does not a healthy practice make.

Why am I afraid of Daily Office commitment? [Ultra confused]

I hear you, and I think several of us (well, I, anyway) can relate to what you're saying here. And I await the publication of our new oblate breviary from Saint Meinrad Archabbey, and that will possibly fill in some unmet needs while having others...but I intend at least to try adopting it firmly as a discipline, because I'm an oblate of that monastery, after all. It might help instill some discipline.

What helps me, when things go well, is to decide on some musts: connection to the modern-day lectionaries is important to me; I'd have a hard time sticking to the old Monastic Diurnal with its frequent disconnects, especially on many Sundays (antiphons pointing to the old lections and not the current ones). Works for some others, but to me it feels like pretending. Coverage of the whole psalter is important, whether over a week, four weeks, a month, or seven weeks. Those are probably the two musts I have. And I do prefer the 1979 psalter if possible, which I try to stick to so I can memorize.

As for hymns...some weeks ago I flipped through the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours because I was sure there was something in there about the hymn being optional if you're not under obligation to pray the hours and/or you're praying individually. Couldn't find that; perhaps it was a Benedictine rubric? Looks like the intent is that every hour of the office have at least a hymn, a psalm, a reading, and a prayer. But I don't make a special effort to include a hymn when I'm praying our BCP office. There's a rubric for a hymn but no prescribed texts.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Does anyone have experience using this from GIA?

Hymnal for the Hours
quote:
This hymnal, for communities that celebrate the daily office, is a collection of 316 hymns prepared by a committee of poets, liturgists, and musicians from various religious communities of women and men under the chairmanship of Andrew D. Ciferni, O. Praem. This is a collection of carefully edited hymns for morning, evening, and general use throughout the entire church year. One hardcover edition contains all harmonies and accompaniments.

 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Is anyone familiar with the three-volume work Les Heures Gregoriennes in Latin and French which has recently been published by the Community of St Martin? This consists of all the hours of the LOH except the Office of Readings set to Gregorian chant.

I have just received my set this morning. I will post my impressions of it later.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Does anyone have experience using this from GIA?

Hymnal for the Hours

Yes, I used to have one. My impression was that it was fairly well done, but I then got a copy of Hymns for Prayer and Praise, which I found a much better resource: better structured with guidance for choosing appropriate hymns, nicely noted with two tunes per hymn text: a plainchant one and a metrical one.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Thanks Oblatus, and thanks for the link.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Is anyone familiar with the three-volume work Les Heures Gregoriennes in Latin and French which has recently been published by the Community of St Martin? This consists of all the hours of the LOH except the Office of Readings set to Gregorian chant.

I have just received my set this morning. I will post my impressions of it later.

I've heard excellent reviews of it but can't justify spending the amount necessary to obtain it. Very expensive; may be worth it, but there are other spending priorities, unfortunately. [Frown]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've just prayed Vespers in Latin for Wednesday of the seventh week of Easter using the relevant volume of Les Heures Gregoriennes.

They are certainly a handsome set of volumes, but after I began to pray the Office I realised that the psalm antiphons for today were different from those in the standard Liturgia Horarum. I do not know if those in Les Heures Gegoriennes are from a later revision of the LH or if they were selected by the Community of St Martin as being more suitable for singing.

I experimented by reciting the Latin psalms, responsories and collect from Les Heures Gregoriennes but using the red Lauds and Vespers book published by Scepter for the hymn and antiphons in Latin and the short reading and intercessions in English.

This was an interesting way of doing the Office but did involve a lot of book juggling, as is discussed in another thread!


Tomorrow evening I will use Les Heures Gregoriennes for Vespers in French, as unlike the ordinary secular Liturgie des Heures which I also have, it has French translations of the Latin office hymns rather than contemporary French hymns.
 
Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
There was a discussion about this in the Yahoo Gregorian group. It seems that Rome has a) produced the new Liturgia Horarum with lots of new antiphons; b) said that the use of Gregorian chant is to be encouraged; and c) said that no new chants are to be written, and only the chants in the histroic repetoire are to be used. It seems that the idea of 'joined-up government' is not known in the Vatican. So Les Heures Gregoriennes is the work of many months of antiquarian research at Solesmes to find old antiphons once associated with the day or psalm, since there is no traditional chant for the new antiphon. In Eastertide, most of the daily antihons are just permutations of Alleluias. It's all very disappointing. There was an attempt by Holger Peter Sandhofe to adapt traditional chants to the new words, but he died before completing this work (no Eastertide or Sanctoral), and even what he did finish has been taken down from the site www.nocturnal.de where it formerly appeared.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Yes, I noticed that the antiphons given in Les Heures Gregoriennes for yesterday's Vespers seemed to consist mainly of alleluias.

I certainly do not regret my purchase of the set, as they are handsome and useful books, but it is possible that I may use them mainly for praying the office in French, as I feel they are superior to the standard Liturgie des Heures for this purpose.

I think they would really come into their own for singing the Latin office; unfortunately I cannot sing the office in any language as I cannot read music or chant notation. However, I would also be pleased to use them for reading the Latin office if supplemented by other books for the antiphons etc.

I also have a copy of the 1961 Brevarium Romanum which was published last year by Nova et Vetera. This is also a handsome publication, and at the moment I use it mainly for Vespers on Sundays and major festivals, as suggested by Fr Hunwicke on his blog.

It seems as though the Baronius Press Latin/English breviary in three volumes will finally be published this year according to their website. At some point I may also obtain a set of the current Liturgia Horarum from Pax Books; the set I currently have is a second-hand one dating from 1974.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I would also say that although I am currently using the 1961 Breviary for Sunday Vespers, I am slightly naughty and Liturgia Horarum-ise it in the following ways:-

1) I always follow the modern Roman calendar using the current dates for certain feasts

2) I read the chapter in English, often using the translations provided in the Baronius Press 1962 Daily Missal for Sunday Vespers

3) I say the Pater Noster audibly, as in the LOH

4) I only ever use one collect as in the LOH, ie no commemorations.


Purists would no doubt frown at these innovations but that's what I do! I feel they are perhaps within the spirit of the latest Motu Proprio concerning the 1962 Missal, which allows the traditional readings in the vernacular without having to repeat them in Latin.
 
Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :
 
Uh oh, so when I sing them without having a clue about the tune, am I doing something wrong?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Not at all. Unfortunately I am a very poor singer and have a terrible voice! On a recent pilgrimage to Rome the priest who was accompanying us asked me not to sing so loudly at Mass as he found it distracting! Apparently my attempt to sing the Salve Regina at the conclusion of Mass without the Latin text was particularly bad!

That is why I prefer to say the office rather than to sing it. Somehow, I do not think I would fit well into any monastic community where the office is sung daily!
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Antiphon, I'm in the same boat as regards singing inability. But I'm now a novice oblate of a small Anglican Benedictine community which sings (in English) Lauds, Vespers, Compline and - on Sundays and feast days - Mattins, using books derived from the Sarum use. The other offices are said. So I'm trying to pick up the rudiments of chant and Gregorian notation. This site should be helpful. It is, however, focussing on the monastic offices not the LoH.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
... but I then got a copy of Hymns for Prayer and Praise, which I found a much better resource: better structured with guidance for choosing appropriate hymns, nicely noted with two tunes per hymn text: a plainchant one and a metrical one.

If you can still get your hands on Hymns for Prayer and Praise, you should. The editors have a very clear idea of what they want: both language and music are straightforward and simple you are trained to pay attention to the drama of the text. Like the defunct ICEL psalter, you either love or loathe the austerity.

Hymnal for the Hours is more inclusive of different styles. Before one decides on this book, do consider the Dominican Sisters' Summit Choir Book.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
I don't know if anyone else noticed it but buried in this interview is some possible good news.
quote:
The new closeness between Solesmes and St. Peters will intensify later this year when Solesmes releases an in-print version of the first volume of the Antiphonale for the Liturgy of the Hours, which will then be used in published form for Vespers at the Vatican.

So maybe we'll see some more music for the Liturgy of the Hours before the year's end.
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
Today, 14 August, is the Feast of St. Maximilian Kolbe and tomorrow, 15 August, is the Solemnity of the Assumption of the BVM. Since the Assumption is a Solemnity it has Evening Prayer I and II. Does this mean that there is never an Evening Prayer for Maximilian? (Other than, perhaps, churches dedicated to him?)
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I took the confirmation name Maximilian in honour of St Maximilian Kolbe when I was recieved into the RC Church, so today I attended mass and also prayed the Office of Readings for the saint.

I used the the ICEL edition of the Liturgy of the Hours, which includes a supplementary booklet containing the propers of recently-introduced feasts, including the memorial of St Maximilian Kolbe. I noticed that a proper Magnificat antiphon was provided for Evening Prayer for the saint, but wondered when it would be used, as on the evening of August 14th one should pray First Vespers of the Assumption.

As suggested, it could possibly be used for First Vespers on August 13th in churches dedicated to St Maximilian Kolbe if his feast is observed as a Solemnity.

Incidently, I do not think that such a supplementary booklet is also available for use with the UK edition of the Divine Office, although I could be wrong.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I took the confirmation name Maximilian in honour of St Maximilian Kolbe when I was recieved into the RC Church, so today I attended mass and also prayed the Office of Readings for the saint.

I used the the ICEL edition of the Liturgy of the Hours, which includes a supplementary booklet containing the propers of recently-introduced feasts, including the memorial of St Maximilian Kolbe. I noticed that a proper Magnificat antiphon was provided for Evening Prayer for the saint, but wondered when it would be used, as on the evening of August 14th one should pray First Vespers of the Assumption.

As suggested, it could possibly be used for First Vespers on August 13th in churches dedicated to St Maximilian Kolbe if his feast is observed as a Solemnity.

Incidently, I do not think that such a supplementary booklet is also available for use with the UK edition of the Divine Office, although I could be wrong.

you are correct, i've not seen one for the 3 volume: "divine office" we use here.

[ 15. August 2009, 02:28: Message edited by: dkpintar ]
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
Here is an interesting daily office development: a 1960-rubrics online breviary with the modern Roman kalendar. (Go to front page, click on "Rubric 1960," new list should drop down permitting "1960 Newcalendar."

The 1960 New Calendar version:

* implements the 2009 Calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_calendar_of_saints) Only those offices are parts of the office for Proper of Saints, which are listed here; some offices are relocated. Offices not found in the Extraordinary form, are created from the Common of Saints

* Memorial offices are implemented as 3rd class offices according to the 1960 rubrics (1, 2-3 readings from the season, 3rd reading from the saint). Feasts are implemented as 2nd class (semifestive offices), solemnities as 1st class (festive) offices

* optional memorial offices are prayed in 'regular' mode, the ferial office is used in 'seasonal' mode, except for Advent, when always the ferial office is recited if the saint's office is optional

* in Lent all memorial offices are trumped by the ferial office, in accordance to the 1960 rubrics (there is only Gospel homily, no Scriptural reading for the season)

* if two saints are assigned for the same day, the first in the calendar is chosen

* commemoration of a saint would be implemented only for local Feast or Solemnity in the O antiphon (Dec 17-24) days in Advent

* Seasonal feast days moved to Sundays (Ascencion etc) cannot be handled, there would be no office left for the feria. Feasts days of saints can be moved through the translation table (Latin/Psalterium/Trnewcal.txt, Latin/Psalterium/Trnewcalyyyy.txt)

* Ember days, Rogation days, and the Octave of Pentecost is dropped following the previous trend since 1955; however the lessons are Gospel homilies for that days

* The traditional schema of Sundays (Septuagesima time, 6 Sundays after Epiphany and 24 Sundays after Pentecost) is not changed because any change of this would require to create a new scriptural reading schema (NOTE: this means that the 3-year Gospel Antiphons, and proper readings calibrated to the modern 3-year calendar, are NOT substituted--the Sunday office is basically the 1960 office.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Just checked out the resource for the Breviarium Roman and it is very interesting indeed. I have the recently published Nova et Vetera edition of the 1961 Breviary which I have experimented with using with the Vatican II calendar, so I will find this site very useful.

The site also gives directions for using the Breviary according to earlier rubrics, such as those of the Council of Trent and those of 1955.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Sadly, the website for the Breviarium Romanum doesn't seem to be functioning at the moment. I hope it will be online again soon.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Good news; the website is now running smoothly again.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I don't know if anyone else noticed it but buried in this interview is some possible good news.
quote:
The new closeness between Solesmes and St. Peters will intensify later this year when Solesmes releases an in-print version of the first volume of the Antiphonale for the Liturgy of the Hours, which will then be used in published form for Vespers at the Vatican.

So maybe we'll see some more music for the Liturgy of the Hours before the year's end.
Hopefully! I'm beginning to tire of writing/adapting my own chants every time I want to sing the office!
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:

quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I don't know if anyone else noticed it but buried in this interview is some possible good news.
quote:
The new closeness between Solesmes and St. Peters will intensify later this year when Solesmes releases an in-print version of the first volume of the Antiphonale for the Liturgy of the Hours, which will then be used in published form for Vespers at the Vatican.

So maybe we'll see some more music for the Liturgy of the Hours before the year's end.
Hopefully! I'm beginning to tire of writing/adapting my own chants every time I want to sing the office!

the three-volume "antiphonale monasticum" is already available. not from solesmes or st peters . . . but from another source, which i will look up later [it's 3am as i type this--i can't sleep] and post. it is in "flexible leather" covers.

watch this space.

[Hicupped post removed - DT Eccles Host]

[ 30. August 2009, 11:00: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I already have the three-volume edition of the current Antiphonale Monasticum. I think I obtained two volumes from a specialist supplier and one directly from Solesmes using the buy online facility on their website.

I would have to say that I am not that keen on the flexible plastic covers which I do not think would stand up very well to frequent use; I would have preferred hard covers similar to those used for the Gregorian Missal, the Graduale Romanum and the Liber Hymnarius, even if this increased the price slightly.

I also have Les Heures Gregoriennes published by the Community of St Martin, which is the current Liturgy of the Hours except the Office of Readings set to chant in both Latin and French. This also comprises three volumes and I understand that it was prepared in conjunction with Solesmes. I also understand that the psalm antiphons were specially prepared for singing and are not always the same as those found in the four-volume Liturgia Horarum.

Will the forthcoming Antiphonale from Solemes which will be used at St Peters therefore have the same or similar material as Les Heures Gregoriennes?
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I already have the three-volume edition of the current Antiphonale Monasticum. I think I obtained two volumes from a specialist supplier and one directly from Solesmes using the buy online facility on their website.

I would have to say that I am not that keen on the flexible plastic covers which I do not think would stand up very well to frequent use; I would have preferred hard covers similar to those used for the Gregorian Missal, the Graduale Romanum and the Liber Hymnarius, even if this increased the price slightly.

I also have Les Heures Gregoriennes published by the Community of St Martin, which is the current Liturgy of the Hours except the Office of Readings set to chant in both Latin and French. This also comprises three volumes and I understand that it was prepared in conjunction with Solesmes. I also understand that the psalm antiphons were specially prepared for singing and are not always the same as those found in the four-volume Liturgia Horarum.

Will the forthcoming Antiphonale from Solemes which will be used at St Peters therefore have the same or similar material as Les Heures Gregoriennes?

so the last paragraph is the £100 question.

antiphon,What is the comparison of material in the "antiphonale" to "heures gregorienne""
same? somewewhat the same? different?

I ask because i have prayed the office in french frequently lately and i AM interested in the "heures greoriennes.


ta,

dk

[ 31. August 2009, 07:20: Message edited by: dkpintar ]
 
Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
Yes, it is the £100 question! We have been waiting a very long time for an Antiphonal for the modern secular (not monastic) Office. I had hoped that Les Heures Gregoriennes (HG) would be the answer, but a great many of the psalm antiphons are different from those for appointed for Lauds and Vespers in the Liturgia Horarum (LH).

'Specially prepared for singing'? Well, Solesmes (who indeed produced the music in HG) could have set the antiphon texts in LH to plainchant, but they didn't do that. Instead they searched through the historical repetoire to find chants (and their texts) which have been attached to the relevant psalms in the past, and substituted those for the new LH antiphhon texts in preparing HG.

In 2002, Holger Peter Sandhofe (HPS), before his untimely death, produced several fascicules of a proposed Antiphonal using the alternative approach - adapting historic plainchant antiphon music to fit the new texts in LH. These were available as .pdfs on this German website, which went down about the time that HG was published (I have the .pdfs myself and use them).

The problem, it seems, lies in Rome, which has spoken - to say that plainchant is to be encouraged in the new rites, and that no new chants are to be created! That is why we have in HG a mixed bag, neither really the new LH nor the old Breviary, a production which cannot be used with any other LH books.

So it will be very interesting to see what the forthcoming Solesmes/St Peter's Antiphonal does - will it follow the HG route or the HPS route?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Thanks for explaining why the psalm antiphons in Les Heures Gregoriennes are different from those in Liturgia Horarum Clavus. I'd read about the reasoning behind this before, but couldn't remember exactly what it was; I was aware that the Vatican had intervened in some way.

dkpintar, the current Solesmes thee-volume Antiphonale Monasticum has the psalms distributed according to the weekly Benedictine scheme rather than the four-weekly "secular" scheme, as in Les Heures Gregoriennes. Also, they are only printed in Latin and no scriptural readings or lectionary for the office are provided; you have to look elsewhere for appropriate daily readings.

I have experimented with using Les Heures Gregoriennes for praying the office in French but taking the antiphons from the four-volume Liturgie des Heures, which is the ordinary French secular breviary.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
Yes, it is the £100 question! We have been waiting a very long time for an Antiphonal for the modern secular (not monastic) Office. I had hoped that Les Heures Gregoriennes (HG) would be the answer, but a great many of the psalm antiphons are different from those for appointed for Lauds and Vespers in the Liturgia Horarum (LH).

Can you tell if the psalm antiphons in Les Heures Gregoriennes match those prescribed in the Ordo Cantus Officii from 1983 (pdf link)? It has the current scheme for singing the Liturgy of the Hours drawn from different sources. I don't know if the new Antiphonal will follow this scheme or as you say possibly adapt melodies to the current antiphon texts.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
thanks to all for the information; especially "antiphon".

it's a big help.
 
Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
After a brief look, I would say that the psalm antiphons in Les Heures Gregoriennes seem to match those in Ordo Cantus Officii , but those for the canticles-used-as-psalms (the second in Lauds and the third in Vespers), for which there are of course no historic precendents, do not.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I don't remember seeing mention of Byzantine Catholic Prayer for the Home here. This post on the NLM references a couple of other Eastern Catholic goodies.

Thurible
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
In order to bump up this thread once again, here is the form of Anglican Use Evening Prayer that I am currently using (I am actually RC):-

Monday-Thursday; EP from the Anglican Service Book, with the following additions:-

office hymns, psalm antiphons and some collects from the 1963 edition of The Prayer Book Office by Fr Paul Hartzell

daily readings from The American Office Book by L. Noel Stipkovich

litany of intercession from The Taize Office published by Faith Press in 1966

On days when proper readings are required I use the Catholic edition of the RSV bible published by Ignatius Press.


Friday; EP from the 1979 edition of The Prayer Book Office by Howard Galley, using the Catholic Truth Society bible (Jerusalem Bible) for the readings, and intercessions and sometimes an office hymn from the 1975 Book of Prayer by St John's Abbey, Collegeville.

Saturday; Vigil Office of Sunday from Benedictine Daily Prayer, which is Vigils with the addition of the intercessions and Lord's Prayer from First Vespers; this is suggested in the introduction to the book and is sometimes the form used at St John's Abbey itself.

Sunday; Vespers from The Anglican Breviary, with the Magnificat antiphon and collect taken from the English translation of the Latin office found in Fr Stravinskas' Lauds and Vespers per annum.
This is a somewhat hybrid office, but I am only able to attend Novus Ordo massses so this usage ties in better with the Sunday readings.

When using EP from the Anglican Service Book or Galley's Prayer Book Office I always follow Cranmer's traditional monthly distribution of the psalms, except when proper psalms are required.

I also try to pray Sext and Compline when I can. For Sext I use the psalms of the day from The Anglican Breviary with the collect for Sext from Hartzell's Prayer Book Office.

For Compline on weekdays I use The Office of Our Lady produced by the Abbey of En Calcat and published by Darton, Longman and Todd in the early 1960s, with the proviso that the psalms are taken from the BCP psalter as I am not keen on the English transaltion provided.

For Compline on Saturdays and Sundays I use the Latin office from the current Liturgia Horarum.

What forms of office are other people using at the moment? I wonder how many of you are messing around with as many books as I am at the moment!
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
For now, I'm using Fr.Stravinskas' Lauds and Vespers-Enlarged edition , but I have all the propers for the saints, as well as the commons from the Liturgia Horarum in a printed six-volume supplement thin enough to be put in the back of the book. I make a few illegal interpolations though:
-Opening versicles before the Invitatory (as in the old breviary)
-Antiphons not doubled on ferias,
-the words Deo gracias said sub voce after the short reading
-the prayer Fidelium animae after the closing versicles, as it was in prime in the old breviary.
For recited offices,I use the antiphons given for the Liturgia Horarum.
For sung offices (I usually end up singing the offices three to four days of the week)For any antiphons not contained in the Liber usualis, I make adaptations of appropriate melodies given there. However, I just came across a rubric in the G.I.L.H. that encourages using the antiphons from the old breviary for sung offices whenever there is no setting of the antiphons used in the new breviary. I might avail myself of this option more frequently.
Whenever I have time to say the little hours, I use the Monastic Diurnal, which I also use for compline, the monthly office of the dead, and occasional votive offices. On Saturdays, I say the Sabbath office of Our lady from the Anglican breviary. (I just found my copy after it went missing for a year.)
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
What forms of office are other people using at the moment? I wonder how many of you are messing around with as many books as I am at the moment!

I've swung back to the Monastic Diurnal Revised (Community of St. Mary, Eastern Province). I read the lessons from the Daily Office Book thus:


Matins lessons are the short lessons given.

For the collect, I rotate through the general ones given at the end of each hour's section at Matins, Terce, and Vespers; I use the collect of the day (or previous Sunday) at Sext.

For singing, I use The Monastic Diurnal Noted, Revised Edition: A Companion Volume to the Monastic Diurnal Revised in draft form from 2007, with lots of red-ink corrections from an e-mail I received from the superior back then. Not sure whether they've done a new draft or have published it yet.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
What forms of office are other people using at the moment? I wonder how many of you are messing around with as many books as I am at the moment!

I've been in a slump lately, having used TEC's Contemporary Office Book since last Advent 1. The 2-year office just doesn't work well for me, and it has drained my zeal.

I need to go back to the shorter Daily Eucharistic readings from Lesser Feasts and Fasts. Those do go well with MDR, since it provides antiphons for the Gospel canticle that align with the Gospel reading from the eucharistic lectionary.

What I need is some new material.

[ 06. September 2009, 23:37: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
I've switched to our diocese's interim BCP (which arrived in my mailbox about 2 weeks ago). The book contains two forms for the Office, a Solemn and Simple form. I use the simple form at home with my wife, and the solemn form on Sundays and Solemnities.

Our interim BCP doesn't include a Daily Lectionary, as we are waiting to make a final decision on if we are going to keep the 3 year Eucharistic lectionary or something else before finalizing all of the lectionary resources we will provide. Thus, I use the LCMS' Treasury of Daily Prayer for my Morning and Midday readings, and at home we are reading through books of the bible in-toto and having family bible discussion each evening as a part of our office.

Rob+
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
thanks to all for the information; especially "antiphon".

it's a big help.

so much help, in fact, ordered my set of les heures gregoriennes "online" about 10 days ago.
transit time to UK from from FR?? anyone???
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I think it took about 10-12 days for my set of Les Heures Gregoriennes to arrive in the UK from France.

I suppose that because they are a monastic community they only despatch orders at certain times when the have a slot in their daily activities of prayer, work, study etc. But they certainly would not mind if you emailed them to check that your order has been despatched, as I did.

I would say that the set is well worth waiting for. Another good reason for having it is that I believe the Latin text of the psalms is the revised one from the latest edition of Liturgia Horarum published in 2000. I only have a second-hand set dating from 1974, which has the earlier text and does not have the variable gospel antiphons for years A, B and C.

If you do not require the texts for the Office of Readings, purchasing Les Heures Gregoriennes works out cheaper than purchasing the latest four-volume edition of Liturgia Horarum from Paxbooks, although one should be aware of the differences in the psalm antiphons bewteen LH and HG.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
......................I would say that the set is well worth waiting for. Another good reason for having it is that I believe the Latin text of the psalms is the revised one from the latest edition of Liturgia Horarum published in 2000. I only have a second-hand set dating from 1974, which has the earlier text and does not have the variable gospel antiphons for years A, B and C.


Newman House Press publishes Lauds and Vespers; in English and Latin, edited by Rev Peter Stravinskas. It contains the variable gopsel antiphons that you mention.

Lectionnaire Monastique(in six volumes)from Solesmes also contains gospel homilies based on years A,B and C.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
Newman House Press publishes Lauds and Vespers; in English and Latin, edited by Rev Peter Stravinskas. It contains the variable gopsel antiphons that you mention.

"the edit timer got to me . . . " anyway,

It's available on Amazon.co.uk with a publishing date of 2007.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I had forgotten that Lauds and Vespers published by Newman House Press also has the variable Sunday antiphons; I also have a copy of that book.

Neither the US or UK editions of the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours has these antiphons, as they are based on the first edition of the Latin book which did not have them. I will have to check again, but I think that the current edition of the French Liturgie des Heures does have them.

The Solesmes Lectionnaire Monastique sounds interesting; it would probably also be available from the monastery's own website. I must check it shortly.

I wonder when or if a new English edition of the LOH will be published incorporating the recent changes?
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Antiphon, I have a set of the Lectionnaire Monastique (in Latin and French) that I'd be prepared to give away to you if you were willing to pay the cost of posting them from Australia. That's still a big ask as even by seamail the postage is likely to be around £40, or £85 for airmail. But send me a PM if you are interested and I'll get a precise quote and see if I can find a cheaper option (DHL perhaps).

Here's the description I posted elsewhere:

These are handsome dark-green hardback volumes, with gold lettering on front cover and spine, published by Solesmes. They have patristic as well as scriptural readings for a two-year cycle, in Latin and parallel French, with response and versicle after each reading, also in both languages. This is the complete set as vol. 7 containing the Office of the Dead is no longer in print.
Two of the volumes are still shrink-wrapped, and the rest little used.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Hi cg

I've just sent you a private message concerning your very kind offer.

regards

ANTIPHON
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Ember Days coming up this week. What does/do the book(s) you use for the Office offer for these days? Rather to my surprise, among mine all I've found are special readings and collects for each of the three days at Matins in the Monastic Breviary Matins (Lancelot Andrewes Press). These link with the Gospels and collects in the lengthy Propers in the English Missal, which have extended readings from the prophetic books, especially on Ember Saturday, where I also find a 'hymn' that begins 'Blessed art thou, O Lord God of our fathers' (does anyone know where that comes from?).
 
Posted by achew (# 9924) on :
 
Can someone help out with the CCP ordo for 2009? There used to be one done by Stephen Carter but none for 09 and we are now coming to the time when we have to use the Week A, B C etc and thats when the ordo comes in useful as a guide. Any help?
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
According to the site they are using the CofE CW lectionary and there is a downloadable version here If that doesn't work, I've got a copy saved that I can send you, so pm me.
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cg:
. . . I also find a 'hymn' that begins 'Blessed art thou, O Lord God of our fathers' (does anyone know where that comes from?).

I believe that is the canticle Benedictus es, Domine, also known as the "Song of the Three Young Men" and is said to be based on the "fiery furnace" passage in Daniel 3. This canticle is also used in Morning Prayer in the U.S. BCP (page 49).
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Well, folks, it's that time of the year again. Week 24 of the Roman Divine Office. The beginning of reading through St Augustine's sermon on the Shepherds.

For those unacquainted with this pearl of devotional literature, Augustine decided it would be a good idea to spend a very long sermon calling the clergy all the worthless, miserable scoundrels he could lay his tongue to. And then some. And in the Office of Readings, we spend the whole of the next two weeks reading through it. (It's a very long sermon.) Not content with his dismal subject matter, Augustine decides on a policy of "if it's worth saying once, it's worth saying ten times." Good move, Aggie. [Disappointed]

The bottom line is, it's a fortnight to avoid the Office of Readings. So, in a spirit of ecumenical helpfulness here are some saints' days from the Roman and CofE calendars that you can celebrate in preference to ploughing through Augustine's bons mots.

Today - Holy Cross Day
15 Sept. - Our Lady of Sorrows; St Cyprian (CofE)
16 Sept. - Ss. Cornelius & Cyprian (Roman); St Ninian; Edward Bouverie Pusey
17 Sept. - St Robert Bellarmine; St Hildegard
18 Sept. - None, I'm afraid, and Augustine's just getting into his stride.
19 Sept. - St Januarius; St Theodore
20 Sept. - Sunday. Not much we can do about that.
21 Sept. - St Matthew
22 Sept. - None
23 Sept. - An Ember Day in the CofE. Hurrah for ordinands!
24 Sept. - None. Oh dear.
25 Sept. - Lancelot Andrewes; Sergei of Radonezh; Ember Day
26 Sept. - Ss. Cosmas and Damian; Wilson Carlile; Ember Day

And then the Office of Readings returns to the relative sanity of the letter of St Polycarp to the Philippians. So I make that four days out of fourteen where we can't avoid Augustine. Not a bad year. [Biased]
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Could some kind person tell me, in the preces which are to be said in the breviary offices of Lauds and Vespers on certain ferial occasions (the Ember days in this instance), what is the correct form to substitute for the versicle "Domine, salvum fac regem/O Lord, save the King", for those of us over whom HM Queen Elizabeth is gloriously reigning?
 
Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Could some kind person tell me, in the preces which are to be said in the breviary offices of Lauds and Vespers on certain ferial occasions (the Ember days in this instance), what is the correct form to substitute for the versicle "Domine, salvum fac regem/O Lord, save the King", for those of us over whom HM Queen Elizabeth is gloriously reigning?

Dr. Kiss's online 1960 Breviary substitutes "O Lord, save our leaders," but I don't know if that is consonant with the 1960 rubrics. That said, are there hard and fast rules for English renditions of the 1960 Breviary?
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Thank you, Brian M - as I like to say the office in Latin, a Latin rendering of "O Lord, save the Queen" will do nicely, if anyone could favour me...
 
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Should be something similar to "Domine, salvas Regina" shouldn't it ?
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Thank you, Brian M - as I like to say the office in Latin, a Latin rendering of "O Lord, save the Queen" will do nicely, if anyone could favour me...

"Domine, salvum fac reginam" is exactly parallel to "Domine, salvum fac regem".
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Shouldn't that be salvam fac reginam?
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I always understood it went like this:

For a king: "Domine, salvum fac regem."
For a queen: "Domine, salvam fac reginam."
For a republic: "Domine, salvam fac republicam."

There are variants. For instance, Gounod's St Cecilia Mass, written for the French, has "Domine, salvam fac republicam," but I've heard it sung in England as "Domine, salvam fac reginam nostram" (O Lord, save our queen), with the "nostram" being in there presumably to fit the music.
 
Posted by Magic Wand (# 4227) on :
 
The rule for the Roman Breviary was that Domine, salvum fac regem was used, irrespective of the form of government that one lived under.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Thank you all!
 
Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
Rather belatedly:

quote:
23 Sept. - An Ember Day in the CofE.
Isn't that rather an appropriate day for reminding ordinands of the ghastliness of some of their predecessors, and the rest of us of the fact that there's nothing new about grotty clergy?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
I've always been interested in how people pray the Liturgy of the Hours. I think the ideal for me, no matter what denominational form of the Daily Office is used, would be to be able to pick up a single book and sing (or say) the whole Office from it with minimal confusion and fuss.

Yesterday I stopped by St. John Cantius Roman Catholic Church here in Chicago and prayed the Rosary and Evening Prayer along with the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius, the order of priests and lay brothers in residence at the church. They use the current volume of the four-volume Liturgy of the Hours (pub. Catholic Book Publishing) along
with a small supplementary booklet for each season, giving the Latin opening, hymn, and responsory for each day. Everything else is from the LotH book.

They chant all the psalms antiphonally (alternating sides of the church) on Gregorian psalm tone II, including the antiphons. I don't know whether they have all pointed their breviaries or not, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they've just gotten very familiar with tone II and can chant it together without pointing. They interestingly use a flex (momentary drop to a lower pitch) to subdivide long second halves of verses as well as long first halves. Normally a flex is used only in the first half, but I can see where their practice may be aimed at consistent treatment of the unpointed LotH psalms. (At least the British-published Divine Office three-volume set provides an asterisk to mark the half-verse, so Gregorian tones can be used as well as four-line strophe tones like Saint Meinrad tones.)

The reading is spoken in English with introduction (A reading from...) and conclusion (The Word of the Lord / Thanks be to God) just as at Mass.

The Magnificat and its antiphon are chanted to Saint Meinrad Tone 5, sticking firmly to a four-line strophe division even though the book doesn't divide it that way.

The intercessions are said responsively between leader and all, with the leader saying the first half of each intercession and everyone saying the second half. The provided refrain is said only once at the end of the introduction to the intercessions.

The familiar Snow version of the Our Father (the chant most used at Mass) is used, and then the cantor chants the collect with simple inflection at the end.

A priest chants the blessing quite simply, and everyone departs.

[ 09. October 2009, 00:28: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
At the Church of the Holy Cross parish, the liturgy of the hours are said before the weekday masses in the morning and the evening. Copies of the UK (and the former commonwealth countries) of Shorter Morning and Evening Prayer are supplied and thus only the weekday forms are used, and sometimes propers for the principal feasts are said.

Sometimes the Gospel canticles are chanted to one of the strophe setting, depending on whether the leader is confident on leading.
 
Posted by achew (# 9924) on :
 
I was just browsing the net and found that the Daily Office SSF is coming out with a new imprint from Continuum publishing. Its set for a launch date either in January 2010(on Amazon's site) or May 2010 (on Continuum's website) edited by Sr Joyce and Br Colin.

Has anyone heard anything else of interest about this new publication?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've just pre-ordered a copy of the new edition of the Daily Office SSF on Amazon. I haven't heard anything about the content or format, but I suspect that it will be very similar to Common Worship; Daily Prayer, with additional Franciscan material.

Oblatus, the supplementary booklet used by the Canons Regular of St John Cantius for the LOH sounds interesting. Have they produced this booklet themselves? I have often thought that it would be a good idea if a publisher such as Vatican Press or Midwest Theological Forum was to produce a booklet containing all the Latin office hymns from the Liturgia Horarum which could then be used with the vernacular office in any language.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Oblatus, the supplementary booklet used by the Canons Regular of St John Cantius for the LOH sounds interesting. Have they produced this booklet themselves? I have often thought that it would be a good idea if a publisher such as Vatican Press or Midwest Theological Forum was to produce a booklet containing all the Latin office hymns from the Liturgia Horarum which could then be used with the vernacular office in any language.

Yes, they produce it themselves for their own use. I've only seen it and haven't got a copy. They do one for the Advent/Christmas LotH volume, one for the Lent/Easter volume, and one covering both Ordinary Time volumes. On Marian festivals and perhaps some other holy days, there seems to be a last-minute distribution of a folded sheet with the necessary hymn and responsory.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
*bump*

Popping into Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, I found out that they pray Evening Prayer before their 5:15 Mass. I didn't have a breviary, since none were offered to me, but I noticed later where they were kept for people to help themselves. It sounded to be totally by-the-book.

One thing that made me a bit wistful was the fact that I was able to join in with the Magnificat because it used the common text that I know already. I am saddened by the fact that the days of common texts will be coming to an end soon. [Frown]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Popping into Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, I found out that they pray Evening Prayer before their 5:15 Mass. I didn't have a breviary, since none were offered to me, but I noticed later where they were kept for people to help themselves. It sounded to be totally by-the-book.

Great! I think this is fairly recent; perhaps just since the reopening after all the fire repairs? Just noticed it in the bulletin:

“Vespers,” from The Liturgy of the Hours~5:00pm,
Monday~Friday. In the Cathedral


Were the provided breviaries copies of Shorter Christian Prayer? That's what I've seen most in RC places where books are provided.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Another small shift away from the "Mass with everything" version of Catholicism that has prevailed since the 60s. Almost twenty years ago when I brief thought about going over it was very rarely that you found Lauds and Vespers said anywhere except in monastic churches and a few exceptionally well favoured cathedrals such as Westminister.

PD
 
Posted by scribbler (# 12268) on :
 
Since the new RC missal is on the way, does anyone know if a new translation of the Liturgy of the Hours/Christian Prayer is in the offing? I like to occasionally use Christian Prayer and love the format, but find some of the translations (not to mention the illustrations!) a bit cheesy.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by scribbler:
Since the new RC missal is on the way, does anyone know if a new translation of the Liturgy of the Hours/Christian Prayer is in the offing? I like to occasionally use Christian Prayer and love the format, but find some of the translations (not to mention the illustrations!) a bit cheesy.

I'm not holding my breath. I would add that I hope and pray any new edition will be published by anyone except Catholic Book Publishing, home of the World's Ugliest Books.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
It has just been announced on the New Liturgical Movement website that a new English edition of the LOH has just been published for use in Africa, which corresponds to the latest edition of the Latin Liturgia Horarum.

This edition might give an indication as to the possible form of future revisions of the UK and USA editions. In particular, I wonder what sort of Office Hymns the new African edition has? I wonder whether it has translations of the classic Latin hymns or has stayed with modern vernacular compositions?

It would be interesting to obtain a set of the new African edition. I believe that the full four-volume set will cost around $100, a single-volume edition containing everything except the Office of Readings will cost $25, and a volume containing Morning and Evening Prayer will cost $6.50.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Great! I think this is fairly recent; perhaps just since the reopening after all the fire repairs? Just noticed it in the bulletin:

“Vespers,” from The Liturgy of the Hours~5:00pm,
Monday~Friday. In the Cathedral

Supposedly, they pray something before the 12:10 Mass as well, IIRC it's at 11:50 or so.

After the 5:15 Mass, it was announced that they would be praying the Rosary in the small chapel that is accessed over by the chancel organ.

The praying of the office made me think that somebody at Holy Name has popped by a certain Anglo-Catholic place in Chicago. The office was led by the priest (who would later say Mass) and a laywoman. They were stationed directly in front of the front rows of pews, facing each other, for the most part. The priest led the office. When it came time for the psalms and canticles, they were read antiphonally, with the priest leading his side of the nave, and the laywoman leading hers. Priest and laywoman both made profound bows for the Gloria Patri. One thing that struck me as odd was that the laywoman left her post and went to the ambo, from which she read the lesson and led the responsory--a significant trudge to walk. It seemed to be done there so that the microphone could be utilized.

There was a brief gap between the office and the Mass, during which the priest (who had previously been wearing clerical shirt and jacket) went to the vestry to vest. A different lector appeared for Mass, and during the offertory another person appeared from the east door, rang the bells at the consecration, and then left before communion. Go figure.

I would call this an emerging office community, as there were several people in attendance who were seriously into it, and they really seemed to be giving it the old college try.

quote:
Were the provided breviaries copies of Shorter Christian Prayer? That's what I've seen most in RC places where books are provided.
I didn't get a chance to look. The books were on a wheeled cart, and I forgot to look. From a distance, I'd say they were smaller in size than a typical hymnal, black, and about as thick as a pew edition BCP79. (It was not the Mundelein Psalter, unless they have a smaller size.) Whatever the book was, it provided the materials for people to pray the full office with perhaps only one flip of pages.

If anybody should end up there, FYI the cart of breviaries was wheeled out shortly before the office, and stationed in the wide walkway between the front and back sections of pews, about halfway down the nave. (Who would ever look there?) This is the same walkway where they station the gifts for the offertory.

In the pews at Holy Name, they still have copies of Worship (III, I suppose, but I forgot to look). They must have liked that hymnal enough to buy replacement copies in the renovation. Those were the only books in the pews. I had been expecting that they would pray Evening Prayer out of there, since the other books were not around when I entered.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
The praying of the office made me think that somebody at Holy Name has popped by a certain Anglo-Catholic place in Chicago.

That's it, then: I shall simply have to visit and experience this soonest!

quote:
I didn't get a chance to look. The books were on a wheeled cart, and I forgot to look. From a distance, I'd say they were smaller in size than a typical hymnal, black, and about as thick as a pew edition BCP79.
My first guess would be that these are Christian Prayer in the Daughters of St Paul edition; perhaps they bought a supply from the Pauline bookshop on Michigan Avenue. I'll definitely check on this. BTW, yes, they use the Worship III hymnal. Glad they haven't given in to the newsprint annual tossables.
[Roll Eyes]

[Code fix. Mamacita, host]

[ 16. October 2009, 04:13: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by scribbler (# 12268) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
...Catholic Book Publishing, home of the World's Ugliest Books.

It really is. The design of their books seems almost intentionally atrocious.

quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
It has just been announced on the New Liturgical Movement website that a new English edition of the LOH has just been published for use in Africa, which corresponds to the latest edition of the Latin Liturgia Horarum.

Thank you for posting this! That revision sounds interesting.
 
Posted by RCD (# 11440) on :
 
I don't suppose anyone knows whether it can be purchased through any Pauline outlet or has to be ordered direct from Africa? I tried emailing the local Pauline bookstore and all my emails bounced.

Edit: by "it" I mean the new African LOTH

[ 18. October 2009, 15:04: Message edited by: RCD ]
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by RCD:
I don't suppose anyone knows whether it can be purchased through any Pauline outlet or has to be ordered direct from Africa? I tried emailing the local Pauline bookstore and all my emails bounced.

Edit: by "it" I mean the new African LOTH

i've sent off an e-mail/order to the paulines in africa. if i have to transfer bank funds, i'll do it.
when i get a response from them, i'll let people here know.
 
Posted by Fr Cuthbert (# 3953) on :
 
In my ministry I've used different offices. Sometimes I wish I hadn't and just stuck to one. However, different places used different versions.

Now I have more personal choice I vary a little. I have to say though that on the whole I have reverted to the 1928 (Church of England) Prayer Book and Psalter, with the Common Worship lectionary, using the Revised Enlgish Bible for the Scripture.

It is interesting that as I've got older I revert to what I began with in ministry ...
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
i've sent off an e-mail/order to the paulines in africa. if i have to transfer bank funds, i'll do it. when i get a response from them, i'll let people here know.

Thank you...hope one of us hears something this week. I've e-mailed our Pauline sisters here in Chicago and got no bounce message but no reply either. I may have to visit the shop and ask in person! I have a feeling they won't know, but maybe there's a sister in residence who keeps up on such things.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
Can someone tell me how much of the Liturgy of the Hours remains to be transcribed to Universalis? Have they added the three-year Sunday Gospel Canticle antiphons?

[ 19. October 2009, 15:43: Message edited by: Extol ]
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
i've sent off an e-mail/order to the paulines in africa. if i have to transfer bank funds, i'll do it. when i get a response from them, i'll let people here know.

Thank you...hope one of us hears something this week. I've e-mailed our Pauline sisters here in Chicago and got no bounce message but no reply either. I may have to visit the shop and ask in person! I have a feeling they won't know, but maybe there's a sister in residence who keeps up on such things.
I receieved my response from the pauline sisters [here in the UK], an invoice which i am paying today. but i think you have to use the email-order form on the site and that goes to nairobi kenya first. then they send it on the to appropriate place.

[ 20. October 2009, 06:21: Message edited by: dkpintar ]
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
I receieved my response from the pauline sisters [here in the UK], an invoice which i am paying today. but i think you have to use the email-order form on the site and that goes to nairobi kenya first. then they send it on the to appropriate place.

i recieved an e-mail from the pauline sisters saying my books are in the mail [Smile] .

i shall review them here for everyone when i get them.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
i recieved an e-mail from the pauline sisters saying my books are in the mail [Smile] .

i shall review them here for everyone when i get them.

Looking forward to the news! Will help me decide whether to place an order. And wondering how this edition got to be done with the Revised Grail when publication of the Revised Grail by itself seems not yet to have been authorized. [Smile]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
i recieved an e-mail from the pauline sisters saying my books are in the mail [Smile] .

i shall review them here for everyone when i get them.

An acquaintance of mine who posts in another forum has received his set and is beginning to peruse them. He remarks favorably about the cover. Apparently he paid via wire transfer.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
My copy of the LoTH arrived today.
I am very impressed.

The only "down" side is the (continuing) use of the single-year reading cycle.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Please tell us more!

Does it have translations of the classic Office Hymns?
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Please tell us more!

Does it have translations of the classic Office Hymns?

worry not . . . .i'll do a summary of the changes in the next few days. the changes are described quite in depth in the introduction to the volume.

[ 11. November 2009, 16:56: Message edited by: dkpintar ]
 
Posted by Monty (# 9227) on :
 
Thanks, we look forward to the review.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
ok...................

Nice cover. Cover, printing,the style is like Catholic Book Publishing LoTH but "better". Priced at US$100/£82.50; this is amazing for the quality you get.

The texts of Biblical Readings, Old Testament Canticles and New Testament Canticles for Evening Prayer from "New American Bible"/cf:New African Bible.

Pslams, Benedictus, Magnificat,Nunc Dimittus from "Revised Grail Psalms".

All other English translation(s) from the ICEL

Includes calendar and propers for the Dioceses of Kenya; calendar for dioceses of Africa. (But you can easily use your own particular national calendar/propers)

New hymns; acknowledgement for these is on 2 pages in back of book. Too much to mention here.

Some Latin hymns as 'options'; Latin text of Te Deum", Benedictus, Magnificat and Nunc Dimmittus

"This edition of the Liturgy of the Hours was commissioned by the AMECEA Bishops, approved by the Kenya Episcopal Conference and Confirmed ''by Rome'' "

Will I use it?: Yes!

Luckily the readings in these volumes are for "year 2" of the cylcle; ie:for even numbered(liturgical) calendar years. Maybe in the in the meantime, someone will prepare English (patrisitic) readings for year 1.
If not, then I may have to use Latin version of LoTH with "Lectionnaire Monastique".....

Why can't a/the new translation be done (officially) for the rest of the English-speaking world? Why? Why?

-------------------------------------------------
From "DECREE Protonada 1814/84" (p 13 of this LoTH)(my summary):

[[relates to the Latin second Editio Typica of 1985,upon which this book is based]]

[1] text of New Vulgate adopted/adapted for , biblical readings, responsories, psalms.
[5] New antiphons for the Benedictus and Magnificat--based on Gospels for years A, B and C.
[6] The drafting of hymns has been carefully and highly polished.
[7] Each psalm is doubly numbered using Greek version and then Hebrew version.
[9] Further texts are added in the appendix, taken from the Roman Missal, for solemn blessing and act of peneitence.
-------------------------------------------------

That's the way it is..............

[ 14. November 2009, 13:35: Message edited by: dkpintar ]
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
... but I then got a copy of Hymns for Prayer and Praise, which I found a much better resource: better structured with guidance for choosing appropriate hymns, nicely noted with two tunes per hymn text: a plainchant one and a metrical one.

If you can still get your hands on Hymns for Prayer and Praise, you should. The editors have a very clear idea of what they want: both language and music are straightforward and simple you are trained to pay attention to the drama of the text. Like the defunct ICEL psalter, you either love or loathe the austerity.
HfPP is out of print, and impossible to find second-hand. I've just heard that a re-print is in the pipeline and Stanbrook Abbey are taking email requests for the waiting list.

I'm guessing that a goodly waiting list will reassure the publishers.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Since Stanbrook Abbey is mentioned and that the title of the book I'm going to recommend is listed on its web page, may I draw your attention to their "Music for Evening Prayer".

In this book, the texts for Vespers and Compline on Sundays, Solemnities and major feast days are set to modal plainsong melodies (except for the hymns). It is a good resource if one intends to sing the UK version of the Divine Office or if you are into collecting vernacular chant music.

For the rest of the antiphons, the introductory material in the book gives ideas of how their their psalm tones can be made more complex to provide the music. They also provide different gregorian formulae which can be centonized, should you choose to compose the music yourself.

Psalm tones adapted from the Gregorian modes are also provided.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
In view of its contents, I could see myself obtaining a set of the new African edition of the LOH after the New Year. I think I would obtain it in preference to the forthcoming Latin/English edition of the 1961 Breviary by Baronius Press, as I would probably find the African LOH of greater use; I already have the Anglican Breviary and the all-Latin edition of the 1961 breviary published by Nova et Vetera last year.

I will enquire at my nearest branch of St Paul Multimedia to see whether they could obtain it for me. Possibly it may eventually be available for purchase online from one supplier or another.
 
Posted by RCD (# 11440) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
New hymns; acknowledgement for these is on 2 pages in back of book. Too much to mention here.

Some Latin hymns as 'options'; Latin text of Te Deum", Benedictus, Magnificat and Nunc Dimmittus

Are the new hymns translations of the Latin hymn texts or unrelated new compositions?
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
In view of its contents, I could see myself obtaining a set of the new African edition of the LOH after the New Year. I think I would obtain it in preference to the forthcoming Latin/English edition of the 1961 Breviary by Baronius Press, as I would probably find the African LOH of greater use; I already have the Anglican Breviary and the all-Latin edition of the 1961 breviary published by Nova et Vetera last year.

I will enquire at my nearest branch of St Paul Multimedia to see whether they could obtain it for me. Possibly it may eventually be available for purchase online from one supplier or another.

ant:

i doubt your local St Paul Multimedia will be able to fulfill your request.

Best to order from Africa---then you get an e-mail from the Paulist nuns in Slough; I sent them a check. I got my books in about 3 weeks (from Kenya). As I said above, books and postage for £82.50
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
All ye who pine for Fr Hartzell's Prayer Book Office - Here's something similar and a whole lot cheaper. 'haligweorc' has a beta software up at St Bede's Breviary

I have not seen Fr Hartzell's book but I get a sense that it draws its extras from the Sarum antiphoner. It seems, from current material in St Bede's, the same source is used here. The core of this office, however, is based on the 79 Prayer book. Hartzell meets Galley.

The texts are singable too. They are the same translation used and published by the Wantage sisters.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
I have not seen Fr Hartzell's book but I get a sense that it draws its extras from the Sarum antiphoner. It seems, from current material in St Bede's, the same source is used here. The core of this office, however, is based on the 79 Prayer book. Hartzell meets Galley.

I was shooting for traditional yet not under copyright. (So many resources that I'd love to use--Galley, A Monastic Breviary (OHC), English Office, etc.) are still in copyright that include the "no electronic means" proviso. Thus, the direct source for a lot of the festal canticle antiphons are drawn directly from the Tridentine Breviary of the Marquis of Bute.

quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The texts are singable too. They are the same translation used and published by the Wantage sisters.

The hymn selections were largely drawn the Hymner but the translations do come from a variety of sources. Again--one of my goals was finding texts not under copyright. Tunes have been scanned but have not yet been incorporated.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
*bump*

Is the martyrology read daily by religious orders of today?
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
*bump*

Is the martyrology read daily by religious orders of today?

I would imagine the more traditional ones still read it. For example, the Papa Stronsay Redemptorists, and the trad. rite Benedictines of the La Barroux family of abbeys and priories.

PD
 
Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
News received via an online discussion group on the Anglican Use:

"The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada has a magnificent new Liturgy of the Hours which contains the Prayer Book Office together with the Lesser Hours and some other material. Of readily manageable dimensions, it includes the readings, antiphons and all the office hymns (from the ACC "Ancient Office Hymn Book"). There are two volumes, the first of which -- Advent to Quinquagesima -- is now available, with the second volume to follow. It is very "user-friendly" and well laid out. In addition, there is a single-volume abridged edition available."

Does anyone have any further information about this?
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Could it be this ?
 
Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
I wonder ...

I shall pass that link on. Never heard of that particular religious Order before.

quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Could it be this ?


 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
"The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada has a magnificent new Liturgy of the Hours which contains the Prayer Book Office together with the Lesser Hours and some other material. Of readily manageable dimensions, it includes the readings, antiphons and all the office hymns (from the ACC "Ancient Office Hymn Book"). There are two volumes, the first of which -- Advent to Quinquagesima -- is now available, with the second volume to follow. It is very "user-friendly" and well laid out. In addition, there is a single-volume abridged edition available."

Does anyone have any further information about this?

I believe this is the abridged one-volume edition mentioned.
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Resurrecting this thread to draw the attention of Sarum enthusiasts to this: forthcoming Sarum office in English.
 
Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
I'd like to try a simple daily office which also used some readings and poetry and wasnt too long and had pauses in it. Varied but not complicated.

Ideas, guys?

HAPPY NEW YEAR , guys.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
All right, Oblatus, I didn't miss your mention of Holy Name and its daily office. I'm curious...what did you think (and did you find the breviaries?!)

[ 02. January 2010, 18:14: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I'd like to try a simple daily office which also used some readings and poetry and wasnt too long and had pauses in it. Varied but not complicated.

Ideas, guys?

HAPPY NEW YEAR , guys.

The poetry bit will probably thwart us while searching. For now, check out Phyllis Tickle's
The Divine Hours, a series of several seasonal books. They follow a familiar office ordo, but are made to be prayed in a short burst of time. The pauses would be up to you. It's something to check out for now, anyway.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I'd like to try a simple daily office which also used some readings and poetry and wasnt too long and had pauses in it. Varied but not complicated.

Ideas, guys?

HAPPY NEW YEAR , guys.

The poetry bit will probably thwart us while searching. For now, check out Phyllis Tickle's
The Divine Hours, a series of several seasonal books. They follow a familiar office ordo, but are made to be prayed in a short burst of time. The pauses would be up to you. It's something to check out for now, anyway.

This series of books are good for simple yet familiar time/ordo of the prayers. I recommend them.
Especially good when traveling.
 
Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
I've been looking at the Tickle books and not quite getting it.

Do they come as a series or is the Advent thru Epiphany different from Wintertime / Springtime.

I mean which volumes make up a set?

I see there is a childrens version too - anyone know if that works?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
All right, Oblatus, I didn't miss your mention of Holy Name and its daily office. I'm curious...what did you think (and did you find the breviaries?!)

Sorry...my mention of praying an Office at Holy Name meant I went to a pew and prayed it on my own (with my BCP/NRSV office book). I haven't visited for Holy Name's daily Office yet, but thanks for the reminder! [Smile]
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I'd like to try a simple daily office which also used some readings and poetry and wasnt too long and had pauses in it. Varied but not complicated.

HAPPY NEW YEAR , guys.

Happy new year. I've mentioned this book and I'll do it again. Check out Merton's "A Book of Hours" . Amazon has preview pages - plenty of poetry to sustain the soul.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I've been looking at the Tickle books and not quite getting it.

Do they come as a series or is the Advent thru Epiphany different from Wintertime / Springtime.

I mean which volumes make up a set?

I see there is a childrens version too - anyone know if that works?

it comes in 4 volumes; winter, summer, spring, and autumn. There is also a 5th volu,e for the "night offices".

i did not know there was a children;s version, but if i were you, i'd go with the "adult".
 
Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
dkpintar

but where does the Advent thru Epiphany fit in that 4 volumes or is it something else?

Ed
 
Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
December & January happen in winter don't they ?
 
Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Of course they do. That comment, somewhat sarcastic, I think!

The point is there are two different volumes - one is named as for 'Wintertime' the other is named as 'Advent thru Epiphany'. My request was for those in ther know about these books to tell me if the latter is an extra to the Wintertime one or is it the Wint6ertime in a new name.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
December & January happen in winter don't they ?

On only half the planet. [Biased]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Sorry...my mention of praying an Office at Holy Name meant I went to a pew and prayed it on my own (with my BCP/NRSV office book). I haven't visited for Holy Name's daily Office yet, but thanks for the reminder! [Smile]

Well then, word to the wise: there was a wheely cart positioned in the cross-aisle halfway up the nave. It was not there when I arrived, so it must have been put out right before the office. There was a very small core contingent (almost all women) that sat right up front and the officiant-priest's volume was attuned to them, so if you're very serious about it I'd sit up near them.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
"The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada has a magnificent new Liturgy of the Hours which contains the Prayer Book Office together with the Lesser Hours and some other material. Of readily manageable dimensions, it includes the readings, antiphons and all the office hymns (from the ACC "Ancient Office Hymn Book"). There are two volumes, the first of which -- Advent to Quinquagesima -- is now available, with the second volume to follow. It is very "user-friendly" and well laid out. In addition, there is a single-volume abridged edition available."

Does anyone have any further information about this?

I believe this is the abridged one-volume edition mentioned.
I've purchased a hardcover copy of the book from the link above and have been using it for a few days. It's very well done and can be used with a Bible for an enriched eightfold office based on the 1959/62 Canadian BCP, but compatible with the USA 1928 BCP and possibly the 1662 BCP. Its aim is similar to that of The English Office, but I think this new An Anglican Catholic Liturgy of the Hours: Abridged Edition does it more successfully. Good typography and layout; very sturdy binding. A few typos, but those few I've seen so far are very minor.

I should add that I don't represent the editor or publisher of the book in any way; just bought the book and thought I'd tell you it's good. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Interesting. What does it use for Matins readings?

For a noted alternative (with Coverdale psalms and KJV chapters etc.) you might have to wait for the English translation of the Sarum breviary currently in hand by Dr William Renwick, in parallel with his Latin edition already being made available here.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cg:
Interesting. What does it use for Matins readings?

For a noted alternative (with Coverdale psalms and KJV chapters etc.) you might have to wait for the English translation of the Sarum breviary currently in hand by Dr William Renwick, in parallel with his Latin edition already being made available here.

Matins and Evensong in this book are Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer from the 1959/62 Canadian BCP, so the readings, as far as I can tell, are from that BCP's lectionary. To these offices are added Prime, Terce, Sext, None, Compline, and "The Office in the Night," and all of these little hours have short chapters (a sentence or two).
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Ah, thanks for explaining that. I was assuming the "Office in the Night" was an equivalent of the Office of Readings/Vigils/Matins (in the older parlance) with some patristic material as well as scriptural readings.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by cg:
Ah, thanks for explaining that. I was assuming the "Office in the Night" was an equivalent of the Office of Readings/Vigils/Matins (in the older parlance) with some patristic material as well as scriptural readings.

The Office in the Night is almost entirely fixed:


 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I don't know if anyone else noticed it but buried in this interview is some possible good news.
quote:
The new closeness between Solesmes and St. Peters will intensify later this year when Solesmes releases an in-print version of the first volume of the Antiphonale for the Liturgy of the Hours, which will then be used in published form for Vespers at the Vatican.

So maybe we'll see some more music for the Liturgy of the Hours before the year's end.
Just when I was starting to wonder if this was going to happen after all, Fr. Zuhlsdorf spotted a post on another forum with some possible good news. A member there got the following message from the Solesmes:
quote:
Dear Sir

the Vesperal for Sundays and feats according Lituriga Horarum will be available in Solesmes editions next wek.
For Laud you will have to be patient.
Sincerely
Daniel Saulnier

So it looks like people will be able to sing modern Vespers to Gregorian Chant pretty soon.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
p.s. I should note the message said "Sundays and feasts", not weekdays so people will still have to piece the chant for weekday modern Vespers (in Latin) on their own. Still, this is good news and practical for use in a cathedral or parish setting.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
Speaking of the Liturgy of the Hours, does anyone know what kind of differences there are between the Antiphonale Monasticum and the Liturgia Horarum?
So far, I've been adapting the antiphons on my own ( Example )And I'm thinking about investing in one or two volumes of the AM.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Speaking of the Liturgy of the Hours, does anyone know what kind of differences there are between the Antiphonale Monasticum and the Liturgia Horarum?
So far, I've been adapting the antiphons on my own ( Example )And I'm thinking about investing in one or two volumes of the AM.

Antiphonale Monasticum uses the one-week Benedictine schema of psalms, although they do have a book which extends it to four (if I remember correctly). I have all three volumes of the AM. .

Which antiphons do you need??

[ 17. January 2010, 16:13: Message edited by: dkpintar ]
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Or have a look here
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
p.s. I should note the message said "Sundays and feasts", not weekdays so people will still have to piece the chant for weekday modern Vespers (in Latin) on their own. Still, this is good news and practical for use in a cathedral or parish setting.

If you don't mind Dominican chants, there's always
this work in progress.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkpintar:
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Speaking of the Liturgy of the Hours, does anyone know what kind of differences there are between the Antiphonale Monasticum and the Liturgia Horarum?
So far, I've been adapting the antiphons on my own ( Example )And I'm thinking about investing in one or two volumes of the AM.

Antiphonale Monasticum uses the one-week Benedictine schema of psalms, although they do have a book which extends it to four (if I remember correctly). I have all three volumes of the AM. .

Which antiphons do you need??

I'm covered so far for all the offices of the year except for lauds of the first-fifth Sundays of lent and lauds and vespers of Easter Sunday.

The Sarum chant looks extremely interesting, and I've bookmarked it. Unfortunately, Acrobat has decided that he doesn't want to work today so I can't see the Dominican chant.

Thanks you everyone for your help!

[Smile]
 
Posted by BenjaminS (# 13224) on :
 
I would love to learn how to chant some of the office on my own. I'm mostly using Common Worship: Daily Prayer, but I also use the US BCP 79 sometimes. Any advice to a total chant newbie on how to get started (I can read music, if that's helpful)?
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
There is a CW psalter which is either pointed or set to chant which I pointed out to Adeodatus ages and ages ago. I'll try and find it.

Thurible
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Quicker than I thought - Music for Common Worship V: Psalter with Chants here.

Thurible
 
Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :
 
The Psalter of the 1979 BCP is available from Church Publishing pointed for Plainsong/Gregorian chant, at Plainsong link and pointe for Anglican chant at Plainsong link both are $40.00 which is on the expensive side. I own the Plainsong Psalter, which also provided seaonal antiphons for the pslams; I assume the Anglican chant version doese as well.

[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]

[ 19. January 2010, 15:13: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Swick, when posting a link, please insert a website name or short descriptor when the UBB screen gives you the second prompt, rather than just repeating all the code a second time. It will make the post easier to read. There's a UBB practice thread in the Styx if you want to experiment. Thanks!

Mamacita, Eccles Host
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Swick:
The Psalter of the 1979 BCP is available from Church Publishing pointed for Plainsong/Gregorian chant, at Plainsong link and pointe for Anglican chant at Plainsong link both are $40.00 which is on the expensive side. I own the Plainsong Psalter, which also provided seaonal antiphons for the pslams; I assume the Anglican chant version doese as well.

The monks and nuns of the Order of St Julian of Norwich offer their plainsong psalter (1979 BCP) free, as two big PDFs on this page. Lots of other goodies there as well.

[ 19. January 2010, 20:40: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
I have both the Anglican Chant and the Plainsong Psalter and (perhaps unfortunately) the Anglican chant volume does not have antiphons.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
For any who may be interested, there is a project underway for the online publication of scans of the liturgical material of the St Gregory's Press, (primarily the Benedictine hours).

Unfortunately, the scanned files are much larger than they need to be, making downloading and sending the files to others really more arduous than necessary. Yet the material is extremely useful, and is the most user-friendly form of the office that I have seen, due particularly to all of the music actually being there, and I'm grateful for their efforts. All of the music is there, as are the rubrics, and the psalms and canticles are meticulously pointed, making for ease of chanting. Aside from anything else, they use the Holy Transfiguration translation, which is my personal favourite. Perhaps putting the different volumes into some sort of presenation folder for home use would be the best way of going about it.

Here is the site. So far, the complete Sunday Office, the Proper of Saints for December, and the Advent Offices have been published, so they've fallen a little behind but I believe that there are plans for the rest to follow.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
For any who may be interested, there is a project underway for the online publication of scans of the liturgical material of the St Gregory's Press, (primarily the Benedictine hours).

Unfortunately, the scanned files are much larger than they need to be, making downloading and sending the files to others really more arduous than necessary. Yet the material is extremely useful, and is the most user-friendly form of the office that I have seen, due particularly to all of the music actually being there, and I'm grateful for their efforts. All of the music is there, as are the rubrics, and the psalms and canticles are meticulously pointed, making for ease of chanting. Aside from anything else, they use the Holy Transfiguration translation, which is my personal favourite. Perhaps putting the different volumes into some sort of presenation folder for home use would be the best way of going about it.

This is wonderful, Michael. Thank you for letting us know. I have a hard copy of the ferial book for the Office throughout the week, and just going through a day's worth of the Office is highly educational...all the detailed rubrics about how things are done line up with much traditional Benedictine practice.

I see what you mean about the file sizes. Everything appears to be scanned; I wonder whether anyone has the original electronic files available to make PDFs from them, which I think would produce smaller files. I could be wrong.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
This is wonderful, Michael. Thank you for letting us know. I have a hard copy of the ferial book for the Office throughout the week, and just going through a day's worth of the Office is highly educational...all the detailed rubrics about how things are done line up with much traditional Benedictine practice.

I see what you mean about the file sizes. Everything appears to be scanned; I wonder whether anyone has the original electronic files available to make PDFs from them, which I think would produce smaller files. I could be wrong.

That would make it much better, wouldn't it? All they need is a PDF virtual printer and it should be much less time-consuming for them in addition to producing smaller files. I'll try to contact them and see what can be done. I think I'd go slowly mad if I had to scan all of those pages.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
That would make it much better, wouldn't it? All they need is a PDF virtual printer and it should be much less time-consuming for them in addition to producing smaller files. I'll try to contact them and see what can be done. I think I'd go slowly mad if I had to scan all of those pages.

I've downloaded all of the files and used Acrobat Pro 9 to shrink the file size, and it saved maybe 25-40 percent, but the files are still very big.

Converting the native (Word?) files to PDF would also produce very sharp, straight pages, of course.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Converting the native (Word?) files to PDF would also produce very sharp, straight pages, of course.

Yes. Although it was apparently created with something called Multi-lingual Scholar. I'm in occasional contact with one of theirn deacons who is quite prolific on the internet. He's also quite tech savvy so I'll make my suggestions to him and see where, if anywhere, we go.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Yes. Although it was apparently created with something called Multi-lingual Scholar. I'm in occasional contact with one of theirn deacons who is quite prolific on the internet. He's also quite tech savvy so I'll make my suggestions to him and see where, if anywhere, we go.

Not that I'm complaining. On the contrary, I've often considered buying the volumes (but too expensive) and am thrilled they're becoming available online. Beautiful work.
 
Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :
 
Do any parts of the Anglican Communion still require their clergy to recite the Office daily?
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
The Church of England certainly does. Morning and Evening Prayer each day.

Thurible
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
My shack is Anglican, but non-Communion. However, following the example of the C of E we still require the Office to be read.

+PD
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
The Antiphonale Romnum Is finally here! Wow, they got it done is such a short time.It's only been- how many years since Vatican II? [Roll Eyes]

I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.

My copy is on its way to me from Solesmes...could arrive even today. I'll report.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
Adobe is working now, and both the Sarum and Dominican chants are great! Thanks to both of you for your help!

[ 12. February 2010, 04:28: Message edited by: St.Silas the carter ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
It will be interesting to see if the new Solesmes Antiphonale Romanum has the same psalm antiphons as does the Latin/French three-volume Heures Gregoriennes published by the Community of St Martin. These are often different from those in the current Liturgia Horarum, apparently because the Vatican has insisted that only traditional Gregorian melodies may be used for singing the current Liturgy of the Hours in Latin, which cannot always be adapted to the more recent antiphons in LH.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
It will be interesting to see if the new Solesmes Antiphonale Romanum has the same psalm antiphons as does the Latin/French three-volume Heures Gregoriennes published by the Community of St Martin. These are often different from those in the current Liturgia Horarum, apparently because the Vatican has insisted that only traditional Gregorian melodies may be used for singing the current Liturgy of the Hours in Latin, which cannot always be adapted to the more recent antiphons in LH.

I expect it to.The Ordo Cantus Officii specifies many antiphons different from those in the Liturgia horarum In some places, all the antiphons are replaced with antiphons from the old breviary.(Like on the feast of Our Lady of Sorrows.)
 
Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
I've had a look at the texts only (not the chants) for the first six Sundays in Ordinary Time, years A, B and C, in various Latin versions of the modern Office.

Ordo Cantus Oficii (OCO) gives references for antiphons for the Gospel canticle for I Vespers, Lauds and II Vespers. The ones for I Vespers are the same in all three years and do not relate to the Gospel readings at Mass on the relevant Sundays. The gospel canticle antiphons for Lauds and II Vespers do relate to the Gospels in years A, B and C, with some overlap where the same antiphon fits with similar Gospels in different years.

Lauds and Vespers Latin-English (L&V) gives texts only (no chants) for the Gospel canticle antiphons for Sundays. There are Gospel canticle antiphons for I Vespers, Lauds and II Vespers for each year, all of which (including I Vespers) relate to the Sunday Mass gospel in the appropriate year.

Les Heures Gregorriennes (HG) gives one gospel canticle antiphon only for each of the years A, B, and C, to be used at I Vespers, Lauds and II Vespers. This is sometimes the one assigned for Lauds or II Vespers in OCO.

The new Antiphonale Romanum II (AR) gives Gospel canticle antiphons for I and II Vespers (nothing for Lauds) for years A, B and C. One of the two is the same as the one given in HG (which was also prepared by Solesmes). So AR gives you one more than HG provides, but still not all three!

L&V, HG and AR all seem to have moved on quite a bit from the original scheme in OCO, as as allowed by the 2008 decree printed at the front of AR. The newer books all have Gospel canticle antiphon texts that come from (or are near enough to) the Mass Gospel for the Sunday, but no two books use all the same texts.
 
Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
Sorry - HG and AR do use the same texts (but AR has twice as many!)
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?
 
Posted by Loveheart (# 12249) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?

I don't know about "should", but I would generally say MP before a Eucharist, finding the prayer time beneficial when preparing to receive.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I think the idea is that you say it beforehand (I think when 'full' sets of Offices were said in religious communities, the Eucharist came quite late, after Prime or Terce or something). I'd like to say that I was able to do this but it can be a hassle time-wise and it's already afternoon afterwards!
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Hello all. If you haven't discovered this gem yet, you should [Smile] . The Wantage sisters at the Covent of St Mary the Virgin stream their Divine Office here on real time. I've heard their Vespers (past my midnight) - fine example of English plainchant!
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?

You can pray MP any time in the morning, really, but traditionally it's before Mass (our parish has MP before the first Mass daily).
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?

You can pray MP any time in the morning, really, but traditionally it's before Mass (our parish has MP before the first Mass daily).
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.

Oh, I can relate, and sometimes don't get to MP at all, or pray it sometime in the afternoon, perhaps concatenated with Evening Prayer (use the EP rite but pray both the MP and EP psalms, read all three lessons).
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
Anyone interested in a Third Edition Collegeville SHORT BREVIARY with extra festal lessons?
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.

Oh, I can relate, and sometimes don't get to MP at all, or pray it sometime in the afternoon, perhaps concatenated with Evening Prayer (use the EP rite but pray both the MP and EP psalms, read all three lessons).
Likewise - 'Morning Prayer' often turns into 'muttering a few relevant Psalms and the Benedictus to myself as I shower and dash around the house looking for ties/keys/espresso. The thought that counts?
[Cool]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I would like to know if it contains the offices of the triduum, or whether those will be in a future volume, but I suspect that I won't find that out till I get my hands on the volume myself.

My copy is on its way to me from Solesmes...could arrive even today. I'll report.
Well, it didn't arrive on Feb. 9, but on Feb. 24. Yes, it has the Vespers of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday, straightforwardly presented as on other days, but with the note that on Maundy Thursday or Good Friday, those who participate in the evening liturgy don't say Vespers as well.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Procedural question. If you're going to Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, should you say MP before or after, or not at all?

From a moderate Anglo-Catholic perspective:

Ritual Notes says that MP and EP can, in private recitation, be read at any time on the day in question.

However, in public use Morning Prayer should strictly preceed the first Mass of the day as it is an abridgement of Matins and Lauds. That said though it is often said before the main Mass; and Evening Prayer belongs to the late afternoon/early evening due to its descent from Vespers and Compline.

We'll leave the matter of anticipating MP overnight for another time.

PD
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Yeah, 'cept with my Sunday schedule (roll out of bed, go, "OH SHOOT! I GOTTA GET TO CHURCH!", do church, get corralled by the hipsters to go to brunch) I usually don't get home until after noon, that's why I was wondering.

Oh, I can relate, and sometimes don't get to MP at all, or pray it sometime in the afternoon, perhaps concatenated with Evening Prayer (use the EP rite but pray both the MP and EP psalms, read all three lessons).
Likewise - 'Morning Prayer' often turns into 'muttering a few relevant Psalms and the Benedictus to myself as I shower and dash around the house looking for ties/keys/espresso. The thought that counts?
[Cool]

Of course one of the benefits of travelling by public transport is that one can pray the office with a fair degree of regularity, although chanting it can raise eyebrows...
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Of course one of the benefits of travelling by public transport is that one can pray the office with a fair degree of regularity, although chanting it can raise eyebrows...

'Round about these parts, busting out a book with the gold edges and a cross on the cover is what raises the eyebrows. Although my favorite day was the one when I got on the train and sat in the seats facing the direction of travel with my prayer book, on the other side of the aisle in the seats facing the other way was an honest-to-goodness Hare Krishna tolling his beads. We BOTH got stared at, and commented on, and we kind of looked at each other, smiled a bit, and went back to our devotions.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
'Round about these parts, busting out a book with the gold edges and a cross on the cover is what raises the eyebrows. Although my favorite day was the one when I got on the train and sat in the seats facing the direction of travel with my prayer book, on the other side of the aisle in the seats facing the other way was an honest-to-goodness Hare Krishna tolling his beads. We BOTH got stared at, and commented on, and we kind of looked at each other, smiled a bit, and went back to our devotions.

I may have mentioned a while back the African woman I saw reading a book on a train, her bright green dress and matching headdress looking very regal indeed. As I left the train, I glanced at her book and saw that it was the tan Volume III of the Liturgy of the Hours. Hadn't expected that for some reason, although the word "catholic" sprang to mind.

People who read The Tipping Point, Freakonomics, or Eat Pray Love tend to hold their books up for all to see as they read. Those with breviaries or rosaries keep them well hidden, but these can sometimes be seen as one walks by. On Sundays, the train I take to church is often well populated with people carrying or reading Bibles; these are usually people headed for the 9.50am service at the venerable Moody Church.
 
Posted by Wilfried (# 12277) on :
 
On my commute I sometimes sit near Chassidim. They read their little black book, I read mine. I imagine that they're reading the Psalms in Hebrew, as I read them in English.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
On my commute I sometimes sit near Chassidim. They read their little black book, I read mine. I imagine that they're reading the Psalms in Hebrew, as I read them in English.

I once saw a Chassid in an airport waiting area; he had his prayerbook open but the light was bad. So he went up to the better-lighted checkin counter and asked to be allowed to daven there, standing at the counter, and they let him, and he did. (It wasn't a busy time at the counter.)

Impressed me, and shamed me a little. Very moving to see him get the light he needed to pray, not worrying about who was watching.
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
That's a great story. Once I found a quiet advertising pillar in Nadi Airport, sat down, and whipped out my prayer book and Bible and did Evening Prayer. They probably thought I was some sort of weirdo, but I didn't care. A strange looking (to me) person who reminded me of Professor Godbole, but looking much, much more Hindu, appeared from nowhere and appeared to be joining me in spirit, which was just fine. Where two or three...
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Just received a complete set of the Solesmes Lectionnaire Monastique in perfect condition thanks to the generosity of another contributor to this forum. I plan to use it in conjunction with Les Heures Gregoriennes of the Community of St Martin.

The next item on my shopping list will probably be the new Antiphonale Romanum for LH Sunday Vespers which has just been published by Solesmes.

Incidently, I have also obtained a copy of John Gunstone's Lift High the Cross, which is a history of the Anglo-Catholic Congresses of the 1920s and 1930s. Has anyone else seen it yet?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
The next item on my shopping list will probably be the new Antiphonale Romanum for LH Sunday Vespers which has just been published by Solesmes.

I received my copy recently and find it very well done and easy to use. My first thought on encountering the hardcover was "Gideon Bible" [Ultra confused] but that's no complaint, as it's sturdy the way I wish their Antiphonale Monasticum volumes were. Anyway, the new AR II provides Latin Vespers for Saturdays and Sundays and for holy days and their eves. With pointed psalms, yet. I always wondered, with the unpointed psalms in the monastic volumes, how the choir was supposed to agree on where to change notes.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
If you will pardon a brief return to the "breviary on the bus" tangent. I was once riding a bus in Orange County, CA, in street clericals, and a middle-aged lady got on the bus. I was reading my Anglican Breviary. She then proceeded to turn me a nice shade of pink by announcing to the whole bus that it was not only "nice to see a priest who was not stuck up and would ride the bus," and that this one "actually reads his Breviary." She hopped off two stops before me, so I assume she was a Catholic, had some issues with the management, and was going to Mass at St Hedwig's, which was about four blocks from my church.

I also have a question:

Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.

PD
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.

Interesting question; I assume you mean The English Office recently reprinted by Canterbury Norwich? I'll be interested in the answer if there's a directly applicable antiphoner. Many of the proper antiphons, especially on the Ben and Mag, and seasonal antiphons on the psalms, can be found (occasionally with minor text changes 1662 v. USA 1928) in C W Douglas' Monastic Diurnal Noted republished by Lancelot Andrewes Press. But the ferial psalm antiphons won't be found there but could be sung to a psalm tone from "Briggs and Frere," the Manual of Plainsong.
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
I was out to visit a friend today and stopped by a local Cokesbury store, and came across "The Paraclete Psalter", produced by the Community of Jesus on Cape Cod, a 4 week Psalter that says it uses all 150 psalms during that time.

I found it interesting to see that they have no real Saturday office. The following is provided:

SUNDAY
I Vespers (listed as Saturday evening, but not)
Lauds
II Vespers

MONDAY - FRIDAY
Lauds
Midday
Vespers
Compline

SATURDAY
Nothing

Compline Psalms are the same every night (4, 91, 134) and the Sunday Psalms are the same every week. So Monday through Friday carry the burden across 3 offices for the remaining psalms.

Haven't used it yet, and cannot figure out why there is a 'sabbath' of sorts from the Work of God on a Saturday (me wonders if S. Benedict would have approved...)

Anyone else familiar with their form of the office, aside from the various controversies that accompany the group?

Rob+
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
I have two questions about Canon Douglas' MD Noted.

Does anyone notice this about the ways the notes are transcribed? Some of the notes, either on its own as punctums or as part of neums covering several notes, are drawn larger or smaller than the rest. Furthermore, it seems to suggest those notes should receive an accentual stress or sung lightly, respectively.

Secondly, does anyone know if Douglas canon also pointed the psalter according to the system presented in the Introduction to the Psalm tones? The system of pointing looks similar to Palmer's Sarum psalter.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Does anyone know which antiphoner is compatable with the English Office? I am thinking of doing a chant workshop on the Office for some of our clergy to try and get them away from "Mass and Chips" liturgics.

Interesting question; I assume you mean The English Office recently reprinted by Canterbury Norwich? I'll be interested in the answer if there's a directly applicable antiphoner. Many of the proper antiphons, especially on the Ben and Mag, and seasonal antiphons on the psalms, can be found (occasionally with minor text changes 1662 v. USA 1928) in C W Douglas' Monastic Diurnal Noted republished by Lancelot Andrewes Press. But the ferial psalm antiphons won't be found there but could be sung to a psalm tone from "Briggs and Frere," the Manual of Plainsong.
Yes, I was referring to "The English Office" reprinted by Canterbury Press a few years ago. The other office book I use is Fr Hartzell's (?) "The Prayer Book Office" (Morehouse, 1963).

PD
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
In Holy Week, amongst other changes, we omit the Gloria after the psalms and canticles in the day offices. Does this extend to Compline, please?
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
In Holy Week, amongst other changes, we omit the Gloria after the psalms and canticles in the day offices. Does this extend to Compline, please?

Yes, as far as I can find.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
In Holy Week, amongst other changes, we omit the Gloria after the psalms and canticles in the day offices. Does this extend to Compline, please?

I don't think we start omitting the Gloria Patri until Maundy Thursday (to Holy Saturday). And that's based on larger tradition, not our BCP.
 
Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on :
 
The Reformed Episcopal Church omits the Gloria throughout Lent up to Easter.

I think that is also the custom among most Anglicans. But correct me if I am mistaken.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
The Reformed Episcopal Church omits the Gloria throughout Lent up to Easter.

I think that is also the custom among most Anglicans. But correct me if I am mistaken.

You may be thinking of the Gloria in excelsis after the Kyrie, right? I'm referring to the Gloria Patri after every psalm or canticle.
 
Posted by Caledonian (# 15493) on :
 
I have just received an 1955 edition of the Scottish Prayer Book, (the 1929). Its pocket sized and just the job for me! [Smile]
 
Posted by St. Punk the Pious (# 683) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
The Reformed Episcopal Church omits the Gloria throughout Lent up to Easter.

I think that is also the custom among most Anglicans. But correct me if I am mistaken.

You may be thinking of the Gloria in excelsis after the Kyrie, right? I'm referring to the Gloria Patri after every psalm or canticle.
Ohhh. No, we keep on doing those. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
I've been going back and forth on the Gloria Patri issue myself.

I think we can say with certainty that use of the Gloria Patri is suppressed for all Offices from Maundy Thursday through Holy Saturday (including Compline). Similarly, if we wish to follow the standard practice of the historic western liturgy, the opening versicles are also suppressed during this period. (The Offices are typically truncated as well but if/how to do this would probably devolve into a discussion of how each tradition decides to do it...)

What happens in the days of Holy Week before Triduum is up for grabs. IIRC, the dropping of the Gloria Patri occurred on Passion Sunday (Lent 5) under the old rules. My practice is to drop the Gloria Patri beginning with Palm Sunday as it's the new Passion Sunday. YMMV.
 
Posted by Magic Wand (# 4227) on :
 
Under the old* rules, the Gloria Patri partially ceased from use on Passion Sunday (Lent V). In the Office it was not said in the Invitatory, in the long responsories at Matins, and in the short responsories at the Little Hours. It continued to be used after the opening versicles and after the Psalms and Canticles until the Triduum. At Mass it was omitted at the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar (the whole Psalm is omitted), at the Introit, and after the Lavabo. This only applied to Offices and Masses of the season; it would have been said as usual on all feast days.

*With reference to the Roman Rite, from at least 1570 until at least 1958. I can't speak confidently to what applied before 1570, although these rules were not without precedent; after 1958 there were certain changes culminating in the Novus Ordo in 1969, and I can't say when each change occurred.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
Thanks for the clarification, MW!

I'm back at the books now and as far as the pre-1570 goes, the Sarum Ordinal agrees concerning the disposition of GPs from Passion Sunday on. The GPs disappear from the psalms starting with Vespers on Maundy Thursday. So at least this strand of the tradition agrees with the Tridentine practice.
 
Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
As many of you know, I am now in charge of my first parish. The parish has a Charismatic/Evangelical background. As anyone on SoF would know from my nearly 10 years' involvement here, I identify at the Anglo-Catholic end of the spectrum - although modified through the... abusive system at college, and then the experience of a curacy in a low-evangelical parish (horror of horrors I can cope with Hillsong!).

Since I started here I've been saying MP in the church - and have been really chuffed that very rarely a day goes by when there's not at least one other parishioner there to pray with me. Very chuffing, considering I only have about 40 parishioners. *proud Mother*

However, I wasn't prepared for the impact this would have on my prayer life. The Office used to be for me a time of real personal connection with God - with its fluctuations of course. The difference I think is that I am now called to lead, and personal engagement, while it's there, takes a back seat.

So in an effort to address the balance, and make time for personal prayer, I consulted with my confessor, who suggested the Roman Daily Office/LOTH.

I dutifully obtained a 4 volumn edition (the American one?), and a copy of The Divine Office for Dodos, which assumes no prior knowledge and is laid out, well, for the simplest Dodo to read. However, I got a bit discouraged, because the lessons were too slow, especially given we were in Lent (and are now in Easter) and the lessons were based on Ordinary time. Even with the Dodo book, I am struggling to find my way around the book - there seem to be 100 different places to look up what you need to look up for each office, and as a mere Anglican I fear I'm getting it all terribly mixed up and wrong.

I'm also struggling with the appalling paucity of the English trans of the Grail psalms. Compared with the beautiful English of the 1662BCP, and even our APBA Psalter - or even the NRSV! - it just makes me want to weep. Lastly, I also struggle with the extreme gender non-inclusivity.

What I like about LOTH is:
- everything is in the one book (you don't need a prayer book, bible, lectionary, and any other supporting material);
- there is provision for offices during the day, not just MP, EP and Compline;
- the office of readings includes non-biblical material, commentary which helps to engage with the text;
- the orientation around the psalms - this is quite a difference in focus from our APBA1995 Daily Office, which is focussed on readings.

So I find myself in a peculiar bind. I really want to engage with LOTH. Even if only to use for the midday office and office of readings. But I am feeling very at sea with it.

Any suggestions?
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
As a longtime CCP user, I'd also looked at broadening into LOTH, so I'd also be interested in solutions to Nunc's dilemma.

Next question:

The (old) English Hymnal says that there is no Office Hymn in Eastertide until Low Sunday, which I think is a Sarum tradition? The LOTH seems to have a full set. Any idea why? Would there have been a Te Deum at every Office?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
After having lapsed for some time, I am currently getting back into the habit of praying Evening Prayer.

At the moment I am using the latest three-volume softback edition of the Solesmes Antiphonale Monasticum for the psalms and antiphons, with the appropriate volume of the secular Liturgia Horarum for the Office Hymn and intercessions.

For the reading I am currently using the first reading from the Office of Vigils as found in the Solesmes Lectionnaire Monastique. I use the Lectionnaire as a reference for the required passages and read the text from my small copy of the Catholic Truth Society Bible.

This means I have several books to juggle with, but I find it rewarding!!

I have also just obtained a copy of the new Solesmes Antiphonale Romanum, which I used for Vespers on Sunday.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
You have it!
Could you tell me what the new Antiphonale Romanum contains? More specifically, I would like to know if it contains tones for singing the preces (Intercessions) at lauds and vespers.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
I find myself in a peculiar bind. I really want to engage with LOTH. Even if only to use for the midday office and office of readings. But I am feeling very at sea with it.

Any suggestions?

You could always say the office from Universalis, setting it up to be calibrated to your regional kalendar and printing hours to take with you as necessary. Universalis uses its own privately commissioned psalm translations, which are quite good, and the Jerusalem Bible renditions of the scriptural lessons. If you want an office hymn, you might find a suitable one in the old English Hymnal or if you don't mind Latin, you can copy and paste in the appropriate one from the Latin LH at Societas Laudis.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Could you tell me what the new Antiphonale Romanum contains? More specifically, I would like to know if it contains tones for singing the preces (Intercessions) at lauds and vespers.

Yes, it does. Chants and pointings are provided for everything in Vespers, including the chapter.

The "Toni Communes" section at the back of the book contains the following:


 
Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
If you had the time, inclination, texts in pdf etc - you ought to be abel to set up a system that pulls the correct bits (according to whatever scheme you are using) into a slide show and then presents them to you. Are any of you compu-savy enough to devise such a thing ?
 
Posted by JSwift (# 5502) on :
 
Hello all,

I'm looking for advice on praying through the daily offices. No matter what prayer book I use I find that I am rushing through the various offices due to time constraints. I end up skipping parts within each of the hours. With children and a career there isn't much I can do about the time crunch, at least for the next few years. So, should I continue to try and pray as many of the offices as possible while skipping parts or should I focus on one or occassionally even two of the hours? Your input is much appreciated.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
It really depends on each person's situation, but...

my suggestion would be to go for quality, not quantity. If you're a person who loves to pray early in the morning before facing the cares of the world, then focus on Morning Prayer. If you're like me, and all you can do is hurry and worry in the morning, then focus on Evening Prayer [and/or Compline].

Morning Prayer is by far the hardest for me, so I don't beat myself up over it. If it is shortened or omitted, or prayed by memory while I am getting ready, I can forgive myself.

I also like what I call the "Festival Additions." On a normal, non-festival day, I pray a very basic, short form of the office. On festival days [especially ones which my church does not celebrate with services], I use the full options of the office and special canticles. Thus, yes I do cheat on the feast of the Annunciation, and substitute the Gloria in Excelsis for the Magnificat. Occasionally I use the Nicene Creed instead of the Apostles'. If I'm using the BCP79, I don't use the confession at every office, but I keep it to the last office of the day. Bottom line: it's all up to me.

[ 07. April 2010, 23:05: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I'm just about to post of a cheque for £87 to the Daughters of St Paul in Slough for a full set of The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa. I'd already sent an email to the Sisters in Nairobi, who sent me an invoice to post on to Slough with my payment in Sterling.

The price seems like good value in comparison with obtaining a new set of the UK edition, which I think is currently about £150 for the three volumes. Moreover, the African edition is fully up-to-date in accordance with the latest directives from the vatican as regards psalm translations, calendar etc.

I will post my own impressions of it when I recieve. It will probably mean that the four-volume USA edition which I currently have will be placed in reserve.
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I'm just about to post of a cheque for £87 to the Daughters of St Paul in Slough for a full set of The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa....

Moreover, the African edition is fully up-to-date in accordance with the latest directives from the vatican as regards psalm translations, calendar etc.

I will post my own impressions of it when I recieve. It will probably mean that the four-volume USA edition which I currently have will be placed in reserve.

I will be looking forward to hear your thoughts. I have been considering this as a splurge purchase, mainly because of the new Psalter. GIA here in the states claims Rome hasn't officially recognized it, and therefore they are not permitted to share the texts at all, even for review purposes. I want to review them to consider putting into use in my local congregation.

Rob+
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I'm just about to post of a cheque for £87 to the Daughters of St Paul in Slough for a full set of The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa. I'd already sent an email to the Sisters in Nairobi, who sent me an invoice to post on to Slough with my payment in Sterling.

Interesting...I wonder whether they'd do that for me: send me an invoice I could post to Boston (USA) or even pay at our local Chicago Pauline shop? (I'm guessing Boston, which I gather is the USA HQ.)
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Hi Oblatus

If you are interested in obtaining a set of the LOH for Africa I would suggest sending the Daughters of St Paul in Nairobi an email saying that you wish to order one. Make sure to provide your home address and hopefully they will email you an invoice which you could send with payment to their Boston branch.

Their website is:- [EMAIL]www.paulinesafrica.org[/EMAIL]

I hope this works for you.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Here's that link again:-

Paulines Africa

That's what I meant to do the first time!
 
Posted by RCD (# 11440) on :
 
Does anyone know of any links for the chanted/sung Office? I found some nice ones over the Lutheran Liturgical Brotherhood site, for the Gregorian tones in English.

Right now, I'm thinking Compline (preferably Roman) in either English or Latin since I think I'm familiar enough with the texts to follow an audio tape without being distracted. But Lauds and Vespers would be nice as well.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Here's that link again:-

Paulines Africa

That's what I meant to do the first time!

Thank you...the site was practically blocked by several levels of warnings for malware, but I crossed my fingers and held on and got through, and indeed they've sent me an invoice to be paid via US-bank check to Boston. Yay!

Another yay: Paul Inwood reports that the recognitio has been granted for the new Revised Grail Psalter. GIA, roll your presses!
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I popped into the nearest branch of St Paul Multimedia today which is some miles away from where I live. On the shelf they had three of the four volumes of the new LOH for Africa, ie that for Advent and the two volumes for Ordinary Time. I was therefore able to have a quick preview until my own set arrives.

My first impression was that the standard of printing was much better than that of the current UK or USA editions. I also noted that the Latin versions of the Te Deum, Benedictus, Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis are given as an appendix, as are the solemn blessings from the missal and the penitential rite for use at Compline. I didn't have the chance to compare the revised Grail psalter with the old version, though; that will have to wait until my own volumes arrive.

On the whole, the layout and feel of the books somewhat reminded me of the current Italian edition of the LOH as used by the Franciscans, which I also have. It is very similar to the layout of the Latin Liturgia Horarum.

On the debit side, I was slightly disappointed to note that standard vernacular hymns are still used in the psalter, although the Advent volume has some Latin office hymns as alternatives. Each book also had an appendix with an alternative series of hymns for use during the week; I do not think that these are translations of Latin office hymns, but they may be new compositions.

I am looking forward to using my own set of the LOH for Africa when it arrives, and will use it to replace the American set which I currently have. It's just a pity that the chance wasn't taken to include proper office hymns either in Latin or in translation for use in Ordinary Time.

Perhaps I will splash out on the latest edition of the Liturgia Horarum from Pax Books at some point to compliment the new LOH!
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
PS I also noted that each volume of the LOH for Africa was selling at £23.95, as opposed to £50 for each of the three volumes of the UK Divine Office; this is quite a saving!!

It is costing me £87 to obtain the complete set from Nairobi via Slough, so it would appear that the most economical way to order a complete set of the LOH for Africa is to order it directly from the Daughters of St Paul in Nairobi and receive an invoice from them to pay to their HQ in your own country.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Just received an email from the Daughters of St Paul in Nairobi to say that my set of the Liturgy of the Hours for Africa is being despatched from their branch in Rome.

Due to the recent volcanic eruption they will no doubt be delayed for a few days. I will let the forum know when I receive them.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
I just bought a copy of this book "Habit of Holiness" . It does provide a very simplified form of the hours but I've found it a good manual of personal prayers.

Very useful as a collection of private devotions inspired by the public liturgies and a companion to grow with. Amazon has sample pages.
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
Has anyone got the new improved(300 extra pages!) Byzantine Catholic Horologion from Sophia Press yet?

I am drooling, but unfortunately the advert does not show any sample pages of the book, and I do like to "see" things first ....... it does look good though!

[ 20. April 2010, 10:58: Message edited by: Boadicea Trott ]
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
Hello all,

I'm looking for advice on praying through the daily offices. No matter what prayer book I use I find that I am rushing through the various offices due to time constraints. I end up skipping parts within each of the hours. With children and a career there isn't much I can do about the time crunch, at least for the next few years. So, should I continue to try and pray as many of the offices as possible while skipping parts or should I focus on one or occassionally even two of the hours? Your input is much appreciated.

I would say stick to what you can do fully and do it as prayerfully as you can. I'd agree with MartinL (of course) in suggesting that you stick to the one or two hours that you can do regularly and substantially. Personally, I find that Lauds and Vespers from the Roman Breviary bookend my working day nicely (I still haven't got weekends and holidays taped properly yet) and perhaps you might find something similar? Conversely, you might find that something like Compline at the very close of the day works for you. If having regular prayer space through the day is important to you but you don't have time for the relevant hour, perhaps you might consider just a short prayer which uses the time you have, rather than abbreviating the office there?
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Abbreviated offices aren't such a bad thing. The "Magnificat' devotional booklets give good models of how offices can be shortened. The result is not necessarily 'Office Lite' when the shortened material gives time to 'read, mark and inwardly digest'. They have the April book online for free here . Do take a look.
 
Posted by JSwift (# 5502) on :
 
A quick thanks for the helpful responses.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on. Over Lent I tried the 1950 English translation of the Roman Breviary published in the US by Nelson and I did find it hard going, especially as I didn't have an Ordo to help me identify what observance trumped what, so I certainly sympathise with struggling with the office! This also influenced my views about abbreviating individual hours - trying to do it myself "on the hoof" I found unsatisfying, but I am sure that the sort of purpose-designed resource that DitzySpike has kindly shared is much better - indeed I have used a shortened office in the form of the Liturgical Press' "Short Breviary" with profit in the past, and I cut my teeth on the Little Office of Our Lady.

On another note, I recently acquired (thanks to Alan and Margaret Edwards of A&M Books - contact details available via the link in my sig.) a 1953 translation of the Divine Office for Anglican Nuns which I am quite looking forward to dipping into, although I probably shan't use it.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Just received my copy of the latest edition of The Daily Office SSF.

I haven't had a chance to study it properly yet but it looks interesting. Has anyone else obtained a copy yet?

I believe this is the third edition of the Franciscan office book. I vaguely remember the first one when it was in use in the 1980s, which was much slimmer and was derived from the ASB daily offices. The second edition was basically Celebrating Common Prayer with additional Franciscan material.

Unlike the previous two books, which I think could only be obtained from the Society of St Francis themselves, the new book seems to be available for purchase by the general public through the usual booksellers such as Amazon and Waterstones. This would appear to provide the C of E with another office book as an alternative to Common Worship;Daily Prayer (with which it shares much material) with a somewhat more "monastic" ethos.

I wonder if any other Anglican religious communities will adopt the new Franciscan publication?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Just received my copy of the latest edition of The Daily Office SSF.

I haven't had a chance to study it properly yet but it looks interesting. Has anyone else obtained a copy yet?

I'm still in pre-order status on Amazon.com, which says it will ship about May 25. How did you get one?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Hi Oblatus,

I ordered my copy of The Daily Office SSF online from Waterstone's, the UK bookshop chain.

Christmas seems to have come early (or late), as my set of The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa also arrived this afternoon, which I've already used for Prayer during the Day!!

Did you manage to order a set for yourself OK?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Hi Oblatus,

I ordered my copy of The Daily Office SSF online from Waterstone's, the UK bookshop chain.

Christmas seems to have come early (or late), as my set of The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa also arrived this afternoon, which I've already used for Prayer during the Day!!

Did you manage to order a set for yourself OK?

Wow...it's great to be you today, eh? [Smile] I need to go green with envy for a moment: [Razz]

I've held off on ordering the African LotH in order to pay some other bills, and I wanted to see whether our local Pauline Books & Music had it in stock (they didn't).

I'm mainly interested in the Revised Grail Psalter, which unless I get the African set, I'll have to wait a while to see, I gather.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I note that the new edition of The Daily Office SSF now has the traditional Latin anthems for use after Compline, which is nice.

It's a pity that it does not have any hymns included for use with Morning and Evening Prayer, although they are included for Midday Prayer and Compline. This might have been an opportunity to provide some good modern translations of some of the traditional Latin office hymns.

The overall layout is very reminiscent of Celebrating Common Prayer, with the offices for each day of the week being assigned a different theme. One drawback is that unlike CCP no biblical lectionary is included within the book itself; you have to obtain the current ordo from the SSF or the C of E, or whatever province of the Anglican Communion you are currently resident in.

Unilke CCP there are no short readings for use at and MP and EP for the convenience of travellers; this is something else which might usefully have been included.

I think the original CCP psalter was much the same as that in the 1979 ECUSA BCP and the 1984 Canadian BAS, whereas that in the new Franciscan book is that of CWDP.

Overall, the book is quite nicely printed; I remember that the quality of the paper used for the original edition of CCP back in the 1990s was not particularly good, and seemed slightly rough and ready.

The news DOSSF has a good deal of useful material which might be used in conjunction with any of the current editions of the LOH, such as the prayers for the blessing of the light, the Angelus, and various prayers for use after the office.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
I ordered mine from the UK amazon site; it's just been dispatched.
 
Posted by Ignatius' Acolyte (# 12426) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I note that the new edition of The Daily Office SSF now has the traditional Latin anthems for use after Compline, which is nice.

It's a pity that it does not have any hymns included for use with Morning and Evening Prayer, although they are included for Midday Prayer and Compline. ...

I do recall that CW:DP did have hymns for evening prayer on a seasonal basis only--which is more than what CCP and DOSSF had to offer!

Interesting review of the new DOSSF, though. Putting the (other) Latin antiphons after Compline is something I hoped they would include, because past rubrical references in CCP, for example, make references to them. Regina coeli laetere and Salve Regina were included before, but not grouped after Compline.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
One other thing which occures to me about The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa is that it only has three page marker ribbons per volume; I personally would have found perhaps another two a bit handier!!

On the other hand, this is slightly better than the French Liturgie des Heures, which has only two ribbons per volume, which means I have to resort to the use of several holy cards when I use it!!

The new Daily Office SSF is a slimmer book but is generously provided with marker ribbons, as was Common Worship; Daily Prayer!
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
One other thing which occures to me about The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa is that it only has three page marker ribbons per volume; I personally would have found perhaps another two a bit handier!!

Breviaries never have enough bookmarks.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
One other thing which occures to me about The Liturgy of the Hours for Africa is that it only has three page marker ribbons per volume; I personally would have found perhaps another two a bit handier!!

Breviaries never have enough bookmarks.
Six would be good for me, although I could use 8-9):

Ordinary (constant part)
Ordinary (seasonal part)
Psalter
Common of the Saints
Proper of the Season
Propoer of the Saints
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
My copy of Daily Office SSF just arrived.

Here are some things that I noticed. The typesetting is much nicer than its predecessors -- somewhat like Celebrating Daily Prayer. Gone, happily, are the clip-art images too [Smile]

Marian anthems are provided in both Latin and English - nice touch.

The psalms are no longer printed together with the ordinary of the hours but are grouped in a section. This requires some book flipping, one inconvenience that makes one miss the older books. However, this allows flexibility for communities to use their own psalm scheme. The rubrics refers us to the Common Worship lectionary and the CCP psalm schema is given in a table at the back of the book.

The calendar uses the Common Worship provision plus Franciscan addition. The sanctoral provides propers for these festivals and commemorations but not those in the 'supplementary list'. Which is more than enough material.

Te Deum no longer begins with 'You are God, we praise you'. Furthermore, there are interpretive paraphrases given for the Gospel canticles (and the Te Deum), done up by Jim Cotter.

The Temporal provides the option of 2 collects for the Sundays. The alternative collect is often one that comes from women-oriented reading of the themes of the day.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
My mistake: Only the Latin Salve Regina is given, but all English translations are available.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
I was pouting about amazon.co.uk selling the Daily Office SSF already and amazon.com saying it was not going to be released until May 18, so I emailed amazon.com. The reply:

Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.de, Amazon.fr, Amazon.co.jp, and Amazon.com are separate and independent sites. Items ordered through these sites will be sent from fulfillment centers in Canada, the U.K., Germany, France, Japan, and the U.S., respectively; we cannot transfer items from one country's website to another. Because each website obtains items from local suppliers, there will always be some titles that are available on one site but not through the others. If you would like to purchase a specific item, you will need to order it from the site where it is listed. order# 002-5686060-XXXXXXX: "Daily Office Ssf" hasn't been released yet and the expected release date is not known. We'll make sure to update our website listing when we know more. We rely on publisher for the release date information. Once this item has been released and we receive copies, we will be able to ship it to you. It is not uncommon for there to be a delay of several weeks between the release and distribution of a new publication.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I was pouting about amazon.co.uk selling the Daily Office SSF already and amazon.com saying it was not going to be released until May 18, so I emailed amazon.com. The reply:

Amazon.ca, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.de, Amazon.fr, Amazon.co.jp, and Amazon.com are separate and independent sites. Items ordered through these sites will be sent from fulfillment centers in Canada, the U.K., Germany, France, Japan, and the U.S., respectively; we cannot transfer items from one country's website to another. Because each website obtains items from local suppliers, there will always be some titles that are available on one site but not through the others. If you would like to purchase a specific item, you will need to order it from the site where it is listed. order# 002-5686060-XXXXXXX: "Daily Office Ssf" hasn't been released yet and the expected release date is not known. We'll make sure to update our website listing when we know more. We rely on publisher for the release date information. Once this item has been released and we receive copies, we will be able to ship it to you. It is not uncommon for there to be a delay of several weeks between the release and distribution of a new publication.

I had much the same frustration when the Apocryphile Press edition of Peter F. Anson's "Bishops at Large" came out and there was a gap of months between the US and UK Amazon releases. Eventually - as the message suggests - I weakened and bought my copy from Amazon US (ironically enough only shortly before getting a good original edition) but the drawback is, of course, the shipping price is substantially greater. The inventory of secondhand book titles against which you can buy and/or list also differs between Amazon sites, which is both frustrating and not particularly reasonable, as far as I can see.
 
Posted by Peregrinus Balticus (# 14728) on :
 
[Coming in two years or so after the most recent post!]
I use CW:DP for a 'decent' office in the morning: being a morning-person I am happy to start the day with an unrushed office, with a decent helping of psalms and readings. When traveling I use CCP:pocket, but rather agree that in the Seasons it gets repetitive, so have gone to the trouble of having alternate Canticles with me.

If I have time for an office later in the day, I've recently signed up to Universalis, which provides the Roman Hours with all the psalms and Canticles and scriptural texts without needing to look anything up. I've got it both on my laptop and on my iPhone.
 
Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :
 
If you have your laptop with you there's no need to deprive yourself of Daily Prayer, just log on to:

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/worship/dailyprayer/


ETA: Welcome aboard!

[ 01. May 2010, 12:27: Message edited by: +Chad ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
From information given in the latest edition of The Daily Office SSF I understand that the first edition was published in 1970, which means that there were three previous editions before the current one.

I vaguely remember the second edition being used by a small SSF community (now sadly disbanded) in my nearest city; I think that this book was based on the ASB daily offices with some additional material.

I understood from other sources that prior to 1970 the SSF had no breviary or office book of their own, but simply used BCP matins and evensong, with Prime and Hours sometimes used for the lesser hours.

Is anyone familiar with the first edition of the SSF office book from 1970? I wonder if it might have had some resemblance to Prime and Hours.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
had much the same frustration when the Apocryphile Press edition of Peter F. Anson's "Bishops at Large" came out and there was a gap of months between the US and UK Amazon releases. Eventually - as the message suggests - I weakened and bought my copy from Amazon US (ironically enough only shortly before getting a good original edition) but the drawback is, of course, the shipping price is substantially greater. The inventory of secondhand book titles against which you can buy and/or list also differs between Amazon sites, which is both frustrating and not particularly reasonable, as far as I can see. [/QB]

Have you checked out bookdepository.com? Delivery might even be free.
 
Posted by achew (# 9924) on :
 
Have just received my copy of Daily Office SSF - (Thanks, DitzySpike, for your suggestion on obtaining it through CH) nice print and layout, but its disappointing that the original schema of the CCP psalter has been placed right at the back and in landscape orientation, making it rather difficult to access. It would have been more accessible if it were inserted where the psalter is.

Having the psalter at the second section of the book is a good idea and six ribbons surely makes all the difference!

The prayers section is abundant with both old and new prayers, but what is sadly missing are the intercessions and great litany. These were in CCP and in Common Worship:DP It would have been would have been nice to have them in place in Daily Office SSF!
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Hey achew. Oh dear. CW:DP, DOSFF, and CCP in one paragraph. We might have just started a cluster of breviarititis.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on. Over Lent I tried the 1950 English translation of the Roman Breviary published in the US by Nelson and I did find it hard going, especially as I didn't have an Ordo to help me identify what observance trumped what, so I certainly sympathise with struggling with the office!

The Anglican Breviary, thich is a slight adaption of the Pius X Breviary, or the 1963 Collegeville translation of the "new" 1960 Roman Breviary are a lot easier to live with. The rubrics of the 1954 Anglican Breviary are much clearer than those of its Roman counterpart, so the major complexity is mastering the three methods by which the office is read - simple, semi-double and double. It costs about $80.00 from http://www.anglicanbreviary.net

I think it is Baronius Press that has recent republished the bilingual Collegeville Breviary. I think they retain the Pian translation of the Psalms, but if you are reciting in English that is not an issue.

PD
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on. Over Lent I tried the 1950 English translation of the Roman Breviary published in the US by Nelson and I did find it hard going, especially as I didn't have an Ordo to help me identify what observance trumped what, so I certainly sympathise with struggling with the office!

The Anglican Breviary, thich is a slight adaption of the Pius X Breviary, or the 1963 Collegeville translation of the "new" 1960 Roman Breviary are a lot easier to live with. The rubrics of the 1954 Anglican Breviary are much clearer than those of its Roman counterpart, so the major complexity is mastering the three methods by which the office is read - simple, semi-double and double. It costs about $80.00 from http://www.anglicanbreviary.net

I think it is Baronius Press that has recent republished the bilingual Collegeville Breviary. I think they retain the Pian translation of the Psalms, but if you are reciting in English that is not an issue.

PD

Sage advice, thank you. I'm on the lookout still for an inexpensive original (Frank Gavin) edition of the Anglican Breviary to round out my collection and if I do get one will certainly give it a try. I agree with you regarding the 1964 (I think) Collegeville/Liturgical Press breviary - it is much easier to navigate and I am using it at the moment. Not being a Latinist I don't mind the Pian psalter. Regarding Baronius Press, I understand from this page that their edition is still in preparation and will differ from the Liturgical Press edition in some significant respects, of which use of the Gallican psalter is the most significant. I wish them well with it, although I will stick with what I have, I think.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Baronius Press has been sending updates on the reprint of the John XXIII Breviary for ages. I thought they had got the flipping thing out, but apparently not. It seems to be in that same limbo as the ACC:DNO reprint of the American Missal. I think the last hitch was finding an ecclesiastical censor who was conversant enough with the traditional breviary to give it the "nihi obstat."

I have a bit of a peculiar relationship with the 1960 Breviary. I like its comparitive simplicity, but like the 1970 LOTH its calendar is enough at odds with the traditional BCP Calendar that it can be a problem. For example, on April 25th I would have said the office for Easter III, but the Mass for St. Mark. My own solution has been to use Anglican Breviary but according the 1960 rules. However, when a discrepency arises between the 1928 BCP and 1962 Calendars as to the rank of a Sunday, I follow the BCP. I know it is quirky, but it at least it solves the Kalendar problem.

PD

[ 06. May 2010, 06:01: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Baronius Press has been sending updates on the reprint of the John XXIII Breviary for ages. I thought they had got the flipping thing out, but apparently not. It seems to be in that same limbo as the ACC:DNO reprint of the American Missal. I think the last hitch was finding an ecclesiastical censor who was conversant enough with the traditional breviary to give it the "nihi obstat."

I have a bit of a peculiar relationship with the 1960 Breviary. I like its comparitive simplicity, but like the 1970 LOTH its calendar is enough at odds with the traditional BCP Calendar that it can be a problem. For example, on April 25th I would have said the office for Easter III, but the Mass for St. Mark. My own solution has been to use Anglican Breviary but according the 1960 rules. However, when a discrepency arises between the 1928 BCP and 1962 Calendars as to the rank of a Sunday, I follow the BCP. I know it is quirky, but it at least it solves the Kalendar problem.

PD

The perils of being biritual...

I get along fine with it, given that I don't mind being occasionally out of sync. in my private devotion with my diocesan calendar.

There are a few mistakes in the Hours of the Divine Office which I hope that Baronius Press will be able to sort out in their new edition. I will be interested to see if they do. As an aside, I understand that the Benziger Brothers Roman Breviary of the same year is a more pleasurable read in English, (a more literary translation, with versified hymns) although I have never obtained a copy to check for myself.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
There are comparitively few disceptencies between the BCP/American Missal Calendar and the Breviary, though a lot of the classifications for feasts are different. Early May is one of the few times the two get out of sync. due to the introduction of "San Giuseppe Comunista" and the moving of Sts Philip and James to the 11th. As the Anglican Breviary has no propers for St. Joe the Worker (iy dates from the very early fifties) I do Philip and James and May 11th is a Feria.

Yes, the Benzigers translation is better than Collegeville, but I think there is some sort of copyright hang up with the Benziger's version. This is, so often, the reason inferior translations and editions survive.

PD
 
Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
*approaches subject from a position of extreme mystification*

Rather than buying multiple editions, why not desktop publish a version that incorporates your particular preferences ? And/or have your edited text properly set and bookbound. (Yes relatively expensive, but you would not do it often.)
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
*approaches subject from a position of extreme mystification*

Rather than buying multiple editions, why not desktop publish a version that incorporates your particular preferences ? And/or have your edited text properly set and bookbound. (Yes relatively expensive, but you would not do it often.)

Ah, but for the breviary addict, the proper number to own is "just one more..."
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
*approaches subject from a position of extreme mystification*

Rather than buying multiple editions, why not desktop publish a version that incorporates your particular preferences ? And/or have your edited text properly set and bookbound. (Yes relatively expensive, but you would not do it often.)

1. Doing your own thing is traditionally frowned upon by the Church
2. Some of us prefer paper to screens

BTW, the reason I use the Anglican Breviary with the 1960 rules is that the province I belong to recommends and uses a rubrical guide from 1964 (Ritual Notes 11) which incorporates the changes made 1954-1963. I may piss and moan about some of the changes, but that is the accepted standard even though we are not held to it with any strictness.

PD
 
Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
I get that, what I meant was that you could produce your own book using a desktop publishing applicaiton adn then print it for use. And I was more thinking in terms of the layout issues often mentioned here rather than the textual content.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I get that, what I meant was that you could produce your own book using a desktop publishing applicaiton adn then print it for use. And I was more thinking in terms of the layout issues often mentioned here rather than the textual content.

Ah, that makes more sense to me. However, I find that I can get used to just about any book that is not totally illogical. That said, there are a few that are "more awkward than they should be" including the altar edition of the Anglican Missal.

PD
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Just a note to say that there is a copy of the rather rarely-found Day Hours of the Church of England on eBay at the moment.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Already got it!!!

Mine isn't the pocket edition, though.

It strikes me that this would be a good title for a publisher such as Lancelot Andrewes Press to reprint.
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
I have one too, though not the pocket edition.

I find the print size in the normal edition quute small enough as it is........
 
Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Isn't it wonderful that so many people say the daily office but not in church, privately.

In a friend's church I went to a gathering with evening prayer. There was peaceful recorded music, a short psalm, a poem, a Bible reading, short biddings with silences and a prayer at the end.

I liked that, but don't have the resource for it.

Is there a good resource for this kind of regular prayer.

I use the Divine Office quite a bit but would like an alternative that is less psalms, more pause, some non scriptural readings - poems etc.

I know that some people really like lots of psalms and I'm not arguing on that. I'm just asking where a alternative resource can be found.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I use the Divine Office quite a bit but would like an alternative that is less psalms, more pause, some non scriptural readings - poems etc.

I know that some people really like lots of psalms and I'm not arguing on that. I'm just asking where a alternative resource can be found.

Have a look at the simple celebration laid out in a section of Celebrating Common Prayer. It's given in full at that link, but the format is slightly off. This material in the book itself is formatted to make two-sided cards that can be used instead of books; those assigned to read a psalm, canticle, poem, prayer, etc., would have the book they need and the place marked. The idea is a simple form that doesn't rely too heavily on everyone finding the right place in a book, and lots of time for silent reflection.
 
Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Thats great Oblaus and I have come across that style somewhere.

Does this sort of thing give space for poetry and none scripture reading as well? Is there a website for resources of poetry and other such readings for the Daily Office/
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
I just noticed that Universalis now includes quite decent office hymns for every hour, of the sort that Fr. Hunwicke recommends in his Ordo. Does anyone know when they were introduced, and from what source? Now that they are included, I may never use an office book again.
 
Posted by JSwift (# 5502) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on.

I've settled on using this site for the abbreviated morning and evening prayers they offer. I've found that as with exercise, I need to find the time and force myself to do it until I make it a habit. It may not be the ideal situation but at this point I figure it is better than nothing. Thanks again for the advice.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by JSwift:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
You're very welcome. Do let us know what you decide and how you get on.

I've found that as with exercise, I need to find the time and force myself to do it until I make it a habit.
Amen to that! Looks like a good site to choose as well - thanks for sharing it, and best of luck!
 
Posted by scribbler (# 12268) on :
 
I don't think it's been mentioned on this particular thread, but the Lancelot Andrewes Press BCP has nice, mildly souped-up version of Morning and Evening Prayer, based on the 1928 American edition. Some of the daily office extras include daily Old Testament canticles for morning prayer; orders for prime, sext and compline; and prayers for the dead and Marian antiphons at Evening Prayer. I've definitely found it worth the $15 (inc. U.S. shipping) for the fresh typesetting alone.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I was pouting about amazon.co.uk selling the Daily Office SSF already and amazon.com saying it was not going to be released until May 18, so I emailed amazon.com.

Looks like the gap is widening. The estimated shipping date had been yesterday, but today they asked me to decide whether to keep waiting or cancel. I'll keep waiting, but this certainly is strange, as the book exists on the planet and could presumably be stocked in Amazon's warehouses.

Paper books are looking quainter by the day with this sort of problem!
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
I just noticed that Universalis now includes quite decent office hymns for every hour, of the sort that Fr. Hunwicke recommends in his Ordo. Does anyone know when they were introduced, and from what source? Now that they are included, I may never use an office book again.

I rather like the Universalis site. Their translation of the psalms isn't bad either, but then I have never been a fan of the Grail translation. I am now back into my post-Pentecost rhythm of reading MP and EP from the BCP, and Office of Readings, Noon Prayer and Compline from LOTH. Personally, I rather like the Office of Readings - it is one of the best things to come out of the post-Vatican II reform apart from those tedious few weeks wen they try and overdose us on drivel - I mean documents - from the Council.

PD
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
I've received my long-awaited copy of the newly revised The Daily Office SSF, resplendent in Franciscan brown with tau-shaped cross on the front. I like it a lot, especially the improved paper and the Gill Sans type, although they still should have searched for extra spaces between words sometimes, but I am hypersensitive to such things.

One hearty chuckle happened when I went to place a ribbon in the "Festivals and Lesser Festivals" section and saw that 31 May is "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth II." I thought I had really missed a major story! Then I realized it's "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth," and it's a II Class feast day. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
One of my favourite prayers from The Daily Office SSF is the one at the conclusion of the office asking for the intercession of the saints. I often use this as a final blessing when praying the RC LOH, especially on feasts and memorials of saints.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Here's my take on the new Daily Office SSF. This will repeat some points made in this thread by others and is a copy of a post I made in another liturgical forum...my apologies for repurposing it here, but I thought some might find it useful...

The biggest change -- the one heavy users of Celebrating Common Prayer (CCP) or the almost identical Daily Office SSF of which CCP was an edition would notice the most -- is that the lectionary and psalm schedule are gone from within the book: it's assumed users of this new Daily Office SSF will use the lectionary of Common Worship, which is published as a separate volume in various editions (I have the one by Fr. John Hunwicke titled Order for the Eucharist and for Morning and Evening Prayer in the Church of England 2010). According to the CW lectionary, today's MP psalms would have been 143 and 146 (and 148 if you add a Laudate Psalm as suggested within The Daily Office SSF); lessons would have been Josh. 4:1 to 5:1 and Lk 9:51-end. Guidance to choice of canticles is, however provided in The Daily Office SSF: this morning (Form 5, for Thursdays in Ordinary Time, it's 13 A Song of the Covenant or 26 A Song of Tobit).

The calendar is up front now, and the list of optional commemorations seems to have grown; it looks almost like our Episcopal Church calendar must look with all the Holy Women, Holy Men commemorations in it (I haven't actually seen a calendar with HW, HM items in it, though).

The devotional material seems like it's expanded a bit, and the Franciscan material seems like more than what was in the previous Daily Office SSF. There are Franciscan documents for First Order SSF and Third Order SSF people, divided up for reading of daily excerpts.

The psalter is now that of Common Worship: Daily Prayer, I believe, rather than the previous lightly adapted version of the USA BCP 1979 psalter. I don't see a heavy emphasis on using more inclusive language beyond what was done in CCP.

The paper is nicer and smoother than CCP, and the binding seems very sturdy. The typography is very similar to that of Common Worship: Daily Prayer; i.e., Gill Sans rather than Palatino. Some might find the Gill Sans a bit small.

One thing I haven't seen that I think was an important part of CCP is the shorter forms of the Offices for small groups...this was a significant contribution to resources for praying the office daily with a group in a less monastic style: a smaller psalm distribution was given, and the intent was that the people have a two-sided card as a guide through the Office (eventually not needing it once some parts were memorized) and that individuals would take the roles of psalm reader, canticle reader, lector, prayer reader, and so on, so they'd come in, pick up a marked book and/or a card, and pray a contemplative office together, with no attempt to cover the entire psalter over any period of time. I personally find it important to pray the whole psalter but also very much respect this other style of praying daily with a group of people.

Overall, I'd say The Daily Office SSF 2010 is a worthy successor to the previous editions of it and CCP; mainly you have to decide whether you want to have to consult the CW lectionary...or of course you can use the BCP 1979 lectionary or any other scheme of psalms and lessons. The new book does have an "alternative table of psalms" at the back of the book; it might be a table-ized version of the CCP psalm scheme; I'll have to study that and find out. There's a temporal table and an ordinary time table.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
[The Daily Office SSF's] calendar is up front now, and the list of optional commemorations seems to have grown; it looks almost like our Episcopal Church calendar must look with all the Holy Women, Holy Men commemorations in it (I haven't actually seen a calendar with HW, HM items in it, though).

Oblatus, are the modern Roman commemorations largely included? If one wanted to use the book according to, say, Fr. Hunwicke's Romanized Anglican calendar, could one?

Also, how big is the book? Thanks as always--

[ 28. May 2010, 13:11: Message edited by: Extol ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
Oblatus, are the modern Roman commemorations largely included? If one wanted to use the book according to, say, Fr. Hunwicke's Romanized Anglican calendar, could one? Also, how big is the book? Thanks as always--

The introduction to the Calendar says: "This Calendar is essentially that of Common Worship. It has been augmented to include celebrations of Franciscan saints of the three Orders as well as significant lives in the history of the Religious Life."

I wouldn't say it covers all the Roman Catholic observances, but it does cover those that are Franciscan in some way. It also has a full provision for Corpus Christi.

The book is about the size of the main volume of Common Worship but perhaps a little heavier. It has 825 pages.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
What's the Sacred Heart called this time? Is it Divine Compassion* still?

Thurible

* I think that's what it was called in CCP
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
What's the Sacred Heart called this time? Is it Divine Compassion* still?

Thurible

* I think that's what it was called in CCP

Took a while to find it, but it's on p. 599:

The Divine Compassion of Christ II
Friday after the First Sunday After Trinity
Form 6 is used for all offices.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
One hearty chuckle happened when I went to place a ribbon in the "Festivals and Lesser Festivals" section and saw that 31 May is "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth II." I thought I had really missed a major story! Then I realized it's "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth," and it's a II Class feast day. [Big Grin]

I believe the late HRH Princess Margaret was the Anglo-Catholic of the two. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
A couple of years ago I absent mindedly put May 29th - (Restoration of the Monarchy, 1660) in the parish calendar. That would have been OK except my parish is in the USA. In my defense I can say that my use of round brackets usually indicates an abrogated or suppressed holyday.

PD
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
A couple of years ago I absent mindedly put May 29th - (Restoration of the Monarchy, 1660) in the parish calendar. That would have been OK except my parish is in the USA. In my defense I can say that my use of round brackets usually indicates an abrogated or suppressed holyday.

PD

British history is American history too, in those years, anyway. You could have saved face in July with: July 4th - (Resuppression of the Monarchy, 1776). [Razz]

I don't know about continuing Anglicans, but the local Episcopalians relish in conversation about English church tradition. They probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid at what you did accidentally.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I am probably less pro-English than most of my congregation. One of the royal pain in the arse aspects of my ancestry is that my mother's family is Irish Protestant. Not the Ulster variety, but the Leinster variety that believed in Home Rule until it became Rome Rule.

PD
 
Posted by Burbling Psalmist (# 9514) on :
 
Advice please: I was, for a while, a Church of England ordinand and before that worked in a parish. It didn't work out and it's the laity for me for a while yet, but it left me with a habit of saying the office from Common Worship Daily Prayer.

Currently, I do this at home and the pile at the side of my favourite chair consists of:


From September, I'll be commuting and will have no choice but to pray MP and EP on the train. I've tried printing out Dave Goode's Excellent Site but don't like saying the office from a few bits of flimsy printout.

What, please, are the other options?

BP
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Burbling Psalmist:
Advice please...BP

If you're not committed to Common Worship, I could highly recommend the Contemporary Office Book, which features Rite 2 Morning Prayer, Rite 2 Evening Prayer, Compline, the Sunday Collects, the Psalter, and the NRSV readings (not just citations) from the Daily Office lectionary in the American BCP79 (see link, p.25). What you'd be missing are Merton's Book of Hours or a set of patristic readings. It would be a nice (albeit a bit fat) travel-size book.

For a slightly smaller book, but with patristic and other readings, there's Benedictine Daily Prayer.

Also, have you looked into a combination book that includes your preferred office ordo plus the entire NRSV Bible? The BCP79 can be purchased together with full NRSV. A magnifying card would make a good bookmark.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Burbling Psalmist: if you can cope with a restricted selection of short bible passages, you can use CW M and EP with the short readings given under Prayer During the Day. This would mean you needed only one book. Maybe some day someone will produce a combined bible and office book including CW, that would be the equivalent of the office books that many Anglican clergy used to use - BCP and AV. But it would be a bit cumbersome.

If you value the continuous reading of books of the bible as per the lectionary (which is a good tradition and one embedded in Anglicanism) you've really either got to resign yourself to carrying two books around with you (plus a printed lectionary, unless you've got it loaded on your iPhone), or else to saying the office as above then reading (at least some of) the full lections when you're at home.

That is basically what the RC Daily Office provides: Morning and Evening Prayer each with a short reading, and the Office of Readings with two fairly long readings (one non-biblical). You could switch to that, which would mean buying three rather expensive,but well-produced, volumes. They divide the year between them so that you only need one book at a time.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
One hearty chuckle happened when I went to place a ribbon in the "Festivals and Lesser Festivals" section and saw that 31 May is "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth II." I thought I had really missed a major story! Then I realized it's "The Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth," and it's a II Class feast day. [Big Grin]

I believe the late HRH Princess Margaret was the Anglo-Catholic of the two. [Big Grin]
What, the badly-behaved one who lived on fags on GIN? Big surprise there, no? [Razz]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
What, the badly-behaved one who lived on fags on GIN? Big surprise there, no? [Razz]

I wasn't implying...you inferred. [Paranoid]
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Burbling Psalmist:
What, please, are the other options?

You could get away with a single volume of NT + Psalms and achieve a fairly coherent office, and as you'll have 50 minutes onthe train [Smile] you should have enough time.

The morning can be opened with Ps 95, 24. 100 or 51 as the seasons require

The psalmody can be completed in a month in this manner: take the day of the month and this will be your first psalm. Then add thirty to get the second, another thirty for the third and so on, till you have five psalms. Use a couple in the morning and evening, and one at lunch time. But note two things:

- on the 29th day, don't try reading all of Psalm 119; better to reserve that psalm as a whole for a 31st day of the month

- on the 18th day, use Ps 18 in the morning (because of its length) and drop psalm 78 (again, too long)

There's an ancient Orthodox practice which gets you through the NT in 14 weeks or so if you read only on weekdays - one chapter of a Gospel, and 2 chapters from Acts-Revelation (although I think you have to read 7 chapters at the end of Rev on single day to make this work). So Gospel in the morning, Apostle in the evening.

Canticles are obviously in the NT - Ben at MP, Beatitudes at lunchtime, Mag in the evening.

And then some prayers and the Our Father.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
I recently discovered this breviary on Lulu, which includes the complete US 1928 BCP Daily Offices, including the complete Psalter and all readings, as well as the offices of the sick and the dead. Noonday and Afternoon Prayer have been added, as well as Compline. The book was edited for use in this diocese, whose Metropolitan appears to be part of that delightful family of vagantes eccentrics who are also royalty.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
books...bibles...lectionaries...hymnals..ordo..

If only the CofE would produce something that is everything in O N E B O O K for the FULL Daily Office (maybe in different volumes like the Roman breviary)acknowledging that probably most people who say the daily office do so pivately.

Personally, anything not in ONE BOOK is disqualified for my own use.

However:

(1)TEC did produce a format like this magnificently with the Daily Office Book.


(2)There WAS an edition of the BCP with the 1922 lectionary combined in one volume.

(3) The Anglican breviary, although rather awkward to travel with is a marvellous publication.

(4) There are abbreviated editions of CWDP but these have spare readings and are not entirely intellectually fulfilling for daily use.

ONE BOOK please liturgical commission
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Having said that, the advent of Universalis is wonderful. Just a click on the iphone. ah..

Perhaps the CofE might produce a suitable App for the iphone...but then...not doubt it will be complictaed and inconvenient.

(I remember sedning an email to two sources about the availability of the Daily Office online. A most helpful response came from a RC source; the CofE didn't bother to respond)
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
The Cambridge UP edition of the BCP does still come with the 1922 lectionary printed in the front, so that could cut it down to two books, if you're happy with the BCP offices.

Alternatively - if you can bear to take a pair of scissors to a book! - you could cut out the current week from the lectionary (and use it as a bookmark too) so as not to have to carry the whole booklet around.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Perhaps the CofE might produce a suitable [daily office] App for the iphone

The C of E has a rather decent online office here. It can be set up for CW or BCP-style offices, with the current CW lessons.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Canterbury Press published an edition of the 1928 BCP with the 1922 Lessons bound with it, but it is very bulky. The same goes for the "American Office Book" published by the Anglican Catholic Church in the 1980s. I have found the best solution is to carry a smallih bible and a smallish BCP slipped into one of those leather bible cover thingies. It is a bit awkward on the bus, but better than trying to cart around a large single volume office book.

PD
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
I have this NRSV/Apocrypha/BCP 1979 (USA) which just happens to fit with a little wiggle room in this LDS scripture tote. It's my commute Office setup. On days when I don't want to carry my usual messenger bag, I grab my little tote, throw my wallet in the exterior zippered pocket and my cell in that 'wiggle room', and skip merrily on my way.

[ 11. June 2010, 21:00: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I have this NRSV/Apocrypha/BCP 1979 (USA) which just happens to fit with a little wiggle room in this LDS scripture tote. It's my commute Office setup. On days when I don't want to carry my usual messenger bag, I grab my little tote, throw my wallet in the exterior zippered pocket and my cell in that 'wiggle room', and skip merrily on my way.

Spiffy, thank you so much for plugging this BCP/NRSV volume. It is precisely what the Daily Office Doctor ordered.

It went out of print and then came back into print about five years ago. I'm hoping that all right-thinking Episcopalians will purchase a few and give them as Epiphany presents so that it forever stays in print.

My scruples are not too numerous for me to hesitate passing an Andrew Jackson over to the Mormon Religious-Industrial Complex, but my current backpack arrangement is satisfactory, so the LDS tote will not go on my list of things to buy.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

My scruples are not too numerous for me to hesitate passing an Andrew Jackson over to the Mormon Religious-Industrial Complex, but my current backpack arrangement is satisfactory, so the LDS tote will not go on my list of things to buy.

I had to choose between the Mormon Religious-Industrial complex and the Conservative Evangelical Religious-Industrial complex. Mormons just happened to have more totes in the slightly chunkier size needed for the brick that is the 'travel' NRSV/BCP.

I think they're both supplied by the Chinese Sweatshop-Industrial complex, though... so lose-lose all around!
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
I've recently acquired two new books, which have so far managed to escape the eagle eye of my Dear Husband [Biased]

I am now the possessor of the LA Press "Book of Common Prayer", and of the St Meinrad Archabbey "Liturgy of the Hours for Benedictine Oblates".

Both are beautifully produced and very well-bound. One thing which I was not expecting was them to both be relatively large-format volumes.

It does mean the font size is very nice and clear, and the St Meinrad volume is eminently suitable to reading the Office by candlelight [Overused] but they are slightly unwieldy to handle and not so portable as BDP for instance.

The St Meinrad book has three nice ribbon markers, allowing one to mark the current daily Office within the four week cycle, and two to mark the Marian antiphons and the Psalm tones/ the unchanging Midday Office and Compline.
The Grail psalms are nice, but although I have tried hard, I simply cannot use the Monastery's translations of the Benedictus and Magnificat, and find myself going back to my beloved KJV for those......

I was disappointed that the LA Press BCP had no marker ribbons at all, and my normal system of emergency holy card markers keeps falling on the floor and driving me demented.... I have resorted to buying exorbitantly expensive Post-It sticky tab markers,as the binding is too tight to admit inserting a commercial set of ribbons [Mad] Having said that, the Post-It tabs work very well and I have now put them in all my prayerbooks, even those with ribbon markers.

I do love the very comprehensive selection of "Opening Words" according to season and types of Feasts, but why oh why are these shoved right at the back of the volume, in between the lectionary and the appendix of various Canons of the Mass ? Why couldn't they be put between Morning and Evening Prayer, when they would be used with most effect? I did love seeing the full set of Marian antiphons after Evening prayer [Angel]

Having said that, my copy of Celebrating Common Prayer, which has been languishing on a shelf, unread and unloved, has suddenly become my most cherished vehicle of saying the Office. I am using it for at least 90% of the time and absolutely loving it, finding unsuspected depths in it. If you had told me three years ago that I would be using a modern day English version of the Office, I would have laughed my socks off.......


On a slight tangent, does anyone know where I can buy a decent "holy card" with the Magnificat in KJV or RSV version English on the reverse ??
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
What, the badly-behaved one who lived on fags on GIN? Big surprise there, no? [Razz]

Well, the description certainly covers some of the Anglo-Catholic clergy I know. I am more the "Real Ale and English Use" subset myself.

My post-Pentecost schedule of using MP and EP from the BCP/1943 Lectionary and LOTH for OOR, Noon Prayer and Compline lasted exactly two weeks. My wife bought me a large print 1662 with the 1922 Table of Lessons in it, and that has bcome my office book. In the twenty odd years I have been reading the Office I have describe almost a full circle. I started out on 1662 BCP with the 1961 Table of Lessons, and have passed through the ASB, US 1928 with 1943 Lectionary, the 1876 FCE BCP with the 1871 Table of Lessons, 1926 Irish BCP, the American 1928 with the '43 Lectionary (again) and now I am back to the 1662/1928 English BCP with the 1922 Lectionary. There have also been brief experiments with the modern New Zealand Prayer Book, LOTH, Anglican Breviary, the US 1928 BCP with its original lectionary. Of the lot I seem to like 1662 BCP with the 1922 or 1961 Table of Lessons best so far. Funny that! I guess I have the Breviary twitch too!

PD

[ 12. June 2010, 15:15: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
If one is following the new LOTH, does one read Evening Prayer for the Feast of the Immaculate Heart of Mary or does one read Evening Prayer I of the Eleventh Sunday in Ordinary Time?
 
Posted by RCD (# 11440) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
If one is following the new LOTH, does one read Evening Prayer for the Feast of the Immaculate Heart of Mary or does one read Evening Prayer I of the Eleventh Sunday in Ordinary Time?

The Sunday, unless the Immaculate Heart is a solemnity by virtue of being a Patron or Titular. I'm guessing it for that reason that the Magnificat antiphon is provided.

[ 13. June 2010, 01:26: Message edited by: RCD ]
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
Thanks. I read Evening Prayer I for Sunday with a commemoration of the Immaculate Heart by adding the antiphon and collect at the end. Hope that was okay.
 
Posted by Burbling Psalmist (# 9514) on :
 
Belated thanks to all for some interesting and thought provoking suggestions, and for feeding my office-book buying habit... [Smile]

BP
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
As I had some cash left over from a recent holiday I have just invested in a complete set of the latest (2000) edition of the Liturgia Horarum in Latin. I ordered the books online on Saturday evening from Redemptorist Publications, and have just recieved them this afternoon (Tuesday). That's quick service!!!

The books cost £35 Sterling each; that seems to be a good deal cheaper the the price asked for by Pax Books. The volumes have black vinyl covers with red-edged pages and are protected by clear plastic jackets.

Check out the website at [EMAIL]www.rpbooks.co.uk[/EMAIL]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Sorry, I meant this for Redemptorist Publications.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
Can anyone tell me whether Fr. Hunwicke's ORDO includes a suggested Office Hymn for the Office of Readings in the LOTH/Divine Office, or just for Lauds and Vespers?
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Of the lot I seem to like 1662 BCP with the 1922 or 1961 Table of Lessons best so far.

Excellency, can you give a brief comparison of the two lectionaries? Fr. Hunwicke suggests that the 1961 is a sound and not terribly pruned version of the 1922, after 40 years of road testing. What are your thoughts?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
Can anyone tell me whether Fr. Hunwicke's ORDO includes a suggested Office Hymn for the Office of Readings in the LOTH/Divine Office, or just for Lauds and Vespers?

Just Morning and Evening Prayer, from the English Hymnal, with parenthetical indication of the equivalent hymn in the New English Hymnal. For instance, for June 11, Sacred Heart:

 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Thanks. I read Evening Prayer I for Sunday with a commemoration of the Immaculate Heart by adding the antiphon and collect at the end. Hope that was okay.

Just a question from one who is not familiar with the LoTH - in the old breviary, a commemoration included, as well as the antiphon and collect, the versicle and response to the relevant hymn, in the pattern

Antiphon
V./
R./
Let us pray...
Collect

Has the use of the V./ & R./ in commemorations been dropped in the LoTH?

[ 15. June 2010, 20:05: Message edited by: Manipled Mutineer ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Has the use of the V./ & R./ in commemorations been dropped in the LoTH?

I would say the use of commemorations has largely been dropped. The General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours(PDF) does provide for the addition of the saint's hagiographical reading to the Office of Readings during seasons in which such memorials would be suppressed (such as Lent), and at Lauds and Vespers on such occasions, the antiphon and collect of the commemorated saint may be added after the collect of the day. No versicle and response.

Also, when there's more than one optional memorial on a day, one is observed and the others dropped, not commemorated.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
I suppose it has. The general instruction doesn't mention it.
I still do it anyway. I take the V./ and R./ from the responsory after the reading, and generally, I do many more commemorations than are actually allowed.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Thank you both!
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Of the lot I seem to like 1662 BCP with the 1922 or 1961 Table of Lessons best so far.

Excellency, can you give a brief comparison of the two lectionaries? Fr. Hunwicke suggests that the 1961 is a sound and not terribly pruned version of the 1922, after 40 years of road testing. What are your thoughts?
Yes, Fr. Hunwicke's description is accurate. There was general feeling by the mid-1950 that the 1922 Table of Lessons could be improved upon, and so they set to work revising it. It came in at/about the same time as the Series One Communion Office and thus represents the first, and IMHO best stage of the C of E's attempts at Liturgical revision.

Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the 1961 Table handy, so I cannot do the detailed comparison which you request. IIRC, most of the differences between lections are a verse here and a verse there, plus some rearrangement of the order in which the NT is read.

PD
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
There is currently a used set of the 2000 edition of the Liturgia Horarum for sale on eBay with a buy-it-now price of $700!!!!

I don't understand why it is selling for such a high price when a brand-new set can be had for less from Pax Books and for much less from Redemptorist Publications; judging from the pictures the set for sale on eBay is the standard edition and not the de-luxe edition with the leather covers.

It seems to be the case that certain office books can sometimes command very high prices second-hand on eBay even when they are available new for less elsewhere; I think this has also happened with the 1998 reprint of The Anglican Breviary.

Can anyone suggest why this may be?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
It seems to be the case that certain office books can sometimes command very high prices second-hand on eBay even when they are available new for less elsewhere; I think this has also happened with the 1998 reprint of The Anglican Breviary.

Can anyone suggest why this may be?

I think some sellers hope an uninformed buyer will simply be glad to find the book and will bid without researching the price from other sources.
 
Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
Let alone getting Ibreviary for your IPhone or Google Android smartphone and having the daily office (in Latin if you wish) for free.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
The Liturgia Horarum is also available online in Latin and French here.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
The Liturgy of the Hours seems somehow better when recited or read in Latin. This is avilable as an iphone App.

It almost entirely fits contemporary CofE useage as there Antiphons etc sit ewasily with the Sunday readings etc.

Again, although published in four volumes it has the advantage of being IN ONE BOOK.
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
A question, Shipmates, about the Liturgy of the Hours.

LotH, in its ineffable wisdom, prescribes the psalms and canticle for Sunday Week 1 for solemnities and feasts also. However, after many years of using LotH, I'm finding I look forward to these psalms - and especially the canticle - about as much as I would look forward to my kidneys being gnawed by rats.

Is there a legitimate alternative? Even if I could be rid of the Canticle of Daniel (Benedicite) it would be a great improvement.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
#134 of the GILH suggests you're stuck with them. Could you just be naughty and use the ferial psalter on that day with proper antiphons?

Thurible

[ 21. June 2010, 10:14: Message edited by: Thurible ]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
It seems to be the case that certain office books can sometimes command very high prices second-hand on eBay even when they are available new for less elsewhere; I think this has also happened with the 1998 reprint of The Anglican Breviary.

Can anyone suggest why this may be?

I think some sellers hope an uninformed buyer will simply be glad to find the book and will bid without researching the price from other sources.
Well, there is that. It is also the case that a book is very generally worth more, as a book, than its reprint.
 
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
#134 of the GILH suggests you're stuck with them. Could you just be naughty and use the ferial psalter on that day with proper antiphons?

Thurible

I suppose I could be creative and retranslate the Canticle of Daniel:
quote:
And you, meteorological phenomena, O bless the Lord.
And you, astronomical phenomena, O bless the Lord.
And you, geophysical phenomena, O bless the Lord.
To him be highest glory and praise for ever.

That seems to take care of about two-thirds of it.

[ 21. June 2010, 11:47: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've certainly seen original editions of The Anglican Breviary published in 1955 for sale on eBay in mint condition which have fetched high prices, including one with a rather nice red leather cover. But at the same time, I think that I have also seen copies of the 1998 reprint for sale which have had high starting prices.

I think that if you have been really keen to get your hands on an out-of-print book for some time, you may be willing to pay a fairly high price for it on eBay or another site whether it is a reprint or an original edition as long as it is in good condition. This would certainly be the case with me!

At the same time, I wouldn't pay an exorbitant price for a used book that was available elsewhere for less brand new.

I do not know if it is sometimes the case that asking prices for original editions come when a brand-new reprint is published; could this have happened with Walsingham Way and Merrily On High by Colin Stephenson?

Office books which I would consider it well worth reprinting include the following:-

The Prayer Book Office by Paul Hartzell; probably the 1963 edition.

The later edition of The Prayer Book Office by Howard Galley, possibly with the addition of office hymns and material from the latest edition of ECUSA's Lesser Feasts and Fasts.

The 1959 edition of The Day Hours of the Church originally published by Mowbray.

And what about a revised edition of The Anglican Breviary in accordance with the rubrics of the 1961 Roman Breviary?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I meant to say the asking prices of original editions come DOWN when a brand-new reprint is published .
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
A question, Shipmates, about the Liturgy of the Hours.

LotH, in its ineffable wisdom, prescribes the psalms and canticle for Sunday Week 1 for solemnities and feasts also. However, after many years of using LotH, I'm finding I look forward to these psalms - and especially the canticle - about as much as I would look forward to my kidneys being gnawed by rats.

Is there a legitimate alternative? Even if I could be rid of the Canticle of Daniel (Benedicite) it would be a great improvement.

GILH No. 247 says that you are allowed to use psalms from the same day in another week of the psalter. Personally, I'm more fond of week III.

As to the Latin Liturgia Horarum, the astronomical price is the only reason I don't own any of the volumes. I got my four-volume English set for a measly $92 on e-bay. $92 won't buy you even ONE volume of the Latin edition.(Well, I think it might at Paxbook.)
I can't really understand why the Latin edition always has to be so expensive. Till the price goes down, I'll have to stick with Fr.STravinskas' Lauds and Vespers, supplemented with the commons and propers of the saints in little booklets.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
So it does! That's what I get for skim-reading.

Thurible
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I meant to say the asking prices of original editions come DOWN when a brand-new reprint is published .

Tumble in some cases, I would say - I noticed this to some extent with both of Colin Stephenson's books, Merrily on High as well as Walsingham Way, and particularly with H.R.T. Brandreth's Episcopi Vagantes and the Anglican Church (the latter sticks in the mind because with some effort I had tracked down a dustjacketed copy for £30, shortly before the Apocryphile Press reprint kilked the market...)
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
What scheme do Breviantics( [Smile] ) use to set their ribbons, please? Is there a 'standard' scheme for a LotH newbie to adopt, I wonder?
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
Oh, dear. I hope I'm not a breviantic, but the following helps me:

  1. Use more ribbons. Breviaries never come with enough.
  2. Set your ribbons either before reading the office, or set them after an office for the next one.
  3. Use a traveling ribbon that marks where you are in the office itself. When I am using the page, I put that ribbon over the top of the breviary, to get it out of the way. This ribbon is helpful to mark your place for when you need to flip to the proper of the day or the psalter. When you need to flip somewhere else, grab the ribbon, mark the page (leaving it out the side, not the bottom, as you'll return to that page).
  4. Ribbons you haven't used yet stick out the side. Ribbons you have used already (and don't need again until next office) rest snugly between the pages and stick out the bottom.
  5. When I'm out of ribbons, I use index cards. Sometimes this happens with commemorations, when I don't want to lose my regular ferial markers.


[ 27. June 2010, 16:50: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Thanks - to say what I meant to say:

Is there a standard colo(u)r scheme to set one's ribbons?
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Thanks - to say what I meant to say:

Is there a standard colo(u)r scheme to set one's ribbons?

My apologies. I don't follow a standard, but I come up with ways to remember (like Red=Readings, Purple=Psalter). Along with you, I'll be curious to see what others do.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
This is what I do:

Red: Temporal. (Proper of time)
White: Sanctoral.(Proper of saints)
Gold/yellow: Psalter
Purple:Commons of the Saints
Blue: Common of the Blessed Virgin.
Black: Office of the Dead.

I also keep a second red ribbon in the Ordinary and a second gold/yellow ribbon to mark Ps.66.(The invitatory)

Also, during advent and lent, I use a different set of ribbons. For those, everything is the same, except the purple ribbon goes in the temporal,and a green ribbon goes in the commons. Sometimes, when I have to make a commemoration of the feria or of an occurring feast, I use a holy card to mark the page.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Some will be interested to know that Episcopalian deacon Ormonde Platter has adapted most of the first three volumes of the new Antiphonale Monasticum to the English of the Book of Common Prayer.

See his web page.
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
Alas, I am ribbon-challenged. When reading the LOTH the dangling ribbons are just too much of a temptation to my cats. They are rather worse for the wear. I've started using prayer cards. Much less a near occasion for feline sin.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Some will be interested to know that Episcopalian deacon Ormonde Platter has adapted most of the first three volumes of the new Antiphonale Monasticum to the English of the Book of Common Prayer.

See his web page.

[Overused]

This is just amazing. I've imagined doing a similar project, but it's done! And very well!
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Some will be interested to know that Episcopalian deacon Ormonde Platter has adapted most of the first three volumes of the new Antiphonale Monasticum to the English of the Book of Common Prayer.

See his web page.

[Overused]

This is just amazing. I've imagined doing a similar project, but it's done! And very well!

Forgive my ignorance--where does one find the office hymns in these files?
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Thanks - to say what I meant to say:

Is there a standard colo(u)r scheme to set one's ribbons?

Mine are all gold, so that's not a fat lot of help. And there's only three, which I use for the Psalter and the OT/Gospel readings, along with a prayer card for the Epistle. For stuff that doesn't really change, or changes infrequently such as the Collect for the day, I use Post-It brand Durable Tabs.

It ain't pretty, but it works for me.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I don't think there's any standard sort of scheme... My main determinant is that the red one is at the front so fits most easily into the daily readings, the blue one is next so fits into the Invitary... and so on and so forth.

I could do with a couple more though.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
In my Hours of the Divine Office(pre-Vatican II breviary) the ribbons are provided. I use them as follows, keeping to the order in which they are set in:

1. red - Ordinary of the DO (constant part)
2. black - Psalter
3. green - common of saints
4. white - proper of the season
5. gold - proper of saints

Even so I usually end up with a least one or two prayer cards holding places.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Some will be interested to know that Episcopalian deacon Ormonde Platter has adapted most of the first three volumes of the new Antiphonale Monasticum to the English of the Book of Common Prayer.

See his web page.

[Overused]

This is just amazing. I've imagined doing a similar project, but it's done! And very well!

Forgive my ignorance--where does one find the office hymns in these files?
I think he refers the reader to the LH (Liber Hymnarius) or the AM (Antiphonale Monasticum), both published by Solesmes. So he's expecting the hymns to be sung in Latin. I would think the proper office hymns as given in The English Hymnal would work well, too.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Alas, I am ribbon-challenged. When reading the LOTH the dangling ribbons are just too much of a temptation to my cats. They are rather worse for the wear. I've started using prayer cards. Much less a near occasion for feline sin.

[Big Grin] Hah i've had exactly the same problem. When i pick the BCP/Bible combo (which has in addition to the ribbons that came with some movable ribbons from another book) if Pulsar sees those ribbons it's like waving a red flag at a bull. She kind of shredded one.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
I can't really understand why the Latin edition always has to be so expensive. Till the price goes down, I'll have to stick with Fr. Stravinskas' Lauds and Vespers, supplemented with the commons and propers of the saints in little booklets.

S. Silas, does Fr. Stravinskas provide Gospel canticle antiphons for all three years?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Yes, Fr Stravinskas does indeed provide the gospel canticle antiphons for years A, B and C.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Yes, Fr Stravinskas does indeed provide the gospel canticle antiphons for years A, B and C.

Thanks Antiphon--may I ask, did you ever use his volume for an extended period, and if so, how much did the missing proper of saints affect your use?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
To be honest, I only ever used Fr Stravinskas' Lauds and Vespers on a fairly limited basis, as I felt that the lack of the propers for saints days did restrict its usefulness, especially after I obtained Les Heures Gregoriennes, which provides all the hours in Latin and French for each day of the year including the feasts of saints, although the psalm antiphons are not the same as those in the Liturgia Horarum.

I often used Lauds and Vespers for EP on Sundays as the second edition does provide Lauds and Vespers for every Sunday in the year, including the seasonal propers for Advent, Christmas, Lent and Easter, and of course the three-year gospel antiphons, but on weekdays I tended to resort to the second-hand four-volume 1973 edition of the Liturgia Horarum which I obtained a number of years ago. I also used this for Compline, which is not included in Fr Stravinskas' book.

I have recently obtained a new set of the 2000 edition of the Liturgia Horarum and have placed my old set in my church library. Therefore, I will probably not use Lauds and Vespers all that much from now on for praying the Office in Latin, although I will still use Fr Stravinskas' translations of the Office Hymns on some occasions when praying the LOH in English, as I do not think much of those provided in the UK, American or African editions.
 
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 
There is an increasing range of iPhone apps that might be of use of office-sayers, including one specifically for the Daily Office.

It has Morning and Evening Prayer in 'traditional' language, including Psalm, collect etc, but not other Bible readings (for copyright reasons).

It's probably not the sort of thing that the the 'advanced' posters to this thread are likely to use, but might be of greater interest to 'beginners' at the Daily Office, or anyone who wants to be sure of having a form of the Office to hand, even if they don't have access to their books.

And, in case you hadn't already guessed, I wrote it.

Pip, pip.

Chapelhead.
 
Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
How interesting - I'm always on the lookout for anyting that will help.

Hope it goes well.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Yes, Fr Stravinskas does indeed provide the gospel canticle antiphons for years A, B and C.

Thanks Antiphon--may I ask, did you ever use his volume for an extended period, and if so, how much did the missing proper of saints affect your use?
[Latepost]
If you don't mind me butting in,it is'nt really too noticable until Ordinary Time after Pentecost. During advent,Christmastide,lent, and eastertide,there's so much material that there's little time to get bored, and Ordinary Time after epiphany is a short period. The long, daily ferial offices after Pentecost prompted me to save the material for the commons in a little printable word file to use for the feasts of the saints. (The whole thing is only about 15 pages long.)
If you're lazy, you can always get the sanctoral material from Here.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Does anyone have experience of using the Glenstal Abbey prayer book (I think it came out in 2001, with an expanded edition a few years back)? Any good?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've just noticed that Midwest Theological Forum has just published a new edition of the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin - the Liturgia Horarum

It comes in a basic hardback edition at $450 and a deluxe leather edition at $900 - I think I'd have to win the lottery before I could obtain the latter!!

I notice that this edition comprises six volumes
rather than the four of the Vatican Press edition. I wonder if this new edition has any significant advantages over the Vatican Press edition; for example, is the standard of printing greatly superior, or is there additional material in this addition such as psalm prayers?

If anyone obtains a set of this new edition it would be interesting to read a review of it. the cheaper of the two MLT editions is in hardback, which might make it better wearing than the vinyl-covered Vatican Press economy ediiton.

Check out the Midwest Theological Forum website here.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I've just noticed that Midwest Theological Forum has just published a new edition of the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin - the Liturgia Horarum

It comes in a basic hardback edition at $450 and a deluxe leather edition at $900 - I think I'd have to win the lottery before I could obtain the latter!!

I wonder how many of those they expect to sell at these prices. Insane! [Eek!] [Mad]
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I've just noticed that Midwest Theological Forum has just published a new edition of the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin - the Liturgia Horarum

It comes in a basic hardback edition at $450 and a deluxe leather edition at $900 - I think I'd have to win the lottery before I could obtain the latter!!

I wonder how many of those they expect to sell at these prices. Insane! [Eek!] [Mad]
I'd wager they sell a maximum of five. Seriously, is there Any valid reason why the Latin editions of the hours have to be so expensive?
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
I have sent an e-mail to Midwest, sasking for details regarding the six-volume LotH; ie: what additional material there is and such.

I'll pass the answer to all of you when I receieve it.

dk
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
As I've said before, I've recently obtained the current four-volume economy Vatican Press edition of the Liturgia Horarum for £35 sterling per volume from Redemptorist Publications, so I can't see myself obtaining even the cheaper of the MTF editions unless it has VERY significant advantages over my current set.

For some time there have been rumours of an alternative cycle of biblical and patristic readings for the Office of Readings, so I don't know if the additional two volumes of the MTF edition contain those. Even if they did, I'd have to be honest and say that that I'd personally find them of comparatively limited use if they were only available in Latin. Even if I pray the psalms of the Office of Readings in Latin, I still use English for the readings themselves.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
It is interesting to note that on Midwest's "ad" for the Liturgia Horarum, they give a page total of about 7200pp in six volumes. The four volume edition from the Vatican has about the same in total.

So we either get more material or larger print. ;-)
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
I phoned Midwest today. There is nothing new in their publication of Liturgia Horarum. They just decided to spread it out over 6 volumes.

That is just plain dumb I would think.

It nust be said, the person in sales with whom I spoke did not do a good job.

dk
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
In that case I'll just stick with the Vatican Press set I already have for the next few years!!!
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Just dropping in briefly to say that one of our US-based members might be interested in picking up this working copy-edition of the 3 volume Collegeville/Liturgical Press breviary at only $38 with 8 hours to go...
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
With reference to an earlier posting, I picked up a copy of the expanded edition of the Glenstal Book of Daily Prayer yesterday.

I would say that it would be a useful simple office book to use while travelling; it has a basic order of MP and EP on a two-week cycle, as well as basic daily orders for Terce, Sext, None and Compline. There is also provision for simple seasonal variations and for the observation of saint's days at MP and EP.

It feels rather like a simplified version of Benedictine Daily Prayer. The inclusive-language version of the Grail psalter is used for the psalms, with the NRSV for the short readings.

I got the hardback edition with a red cover, but I think a softback edition is also available.

It is possible that the basic layout of the daily offices is based on the offices used by the Benedictine community at Glenstal Abbey.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Just dropping in briefly to say that one of our US-based members might be interested in picking up this working copy-edition of the 3 volume Collegeville/Liturgical Press breviary at only $38 with 8 hours to go...

It went for only $54! I had considered bidding $50 but am in the middle of dealing with an intrusion on my PayPal account and didn't want to confuse things while the fraud is being investigated. A previous intruder on my account is now a convict and is on probation and community service in California, by the way. If you intrude on my PayPal account, it's best not to leave your home address on one of your fraudulent orders!
[Razz]

Anyway, on sale at eBay right now is a copy of the elusive American Office Book. Does someone have one? Is it the USA 1928 office with lessons? In any case, $285 is for me a bit too dear.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I managed to obtain a copy of the American Office Book three or four years ago.

I would say that it is basically MP and EP from the 1928 ECUSA BCP with the readings in full using the RSV, with the addition of orders for Midday Prayer and Compline.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Brother Martin at St Gregory's Abbey in Michigan, USA, continues his review of books for praying the divine office in the new issue of the Abbey Letter.

Getting a look this time are the various LotH editions commonly used in the USA, the Monastic Diurnal Revised, the People's Companion to the Breviary, and Phyllis Tickle's Divine Hours.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Brother Martin's first installment of office-book reviews was in this issue (PDF) of the Abbey Letter.

In that issue he reviewed the BCP 1979 office, A Monastic Breviary, the St Helena Breviary, Celebrating Common Prayer, Common Worship: Daily Prayer, a Mennonite daily prayer book, and Benedictine Daily Prayer.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
Thanks for the info on the Glenstal book, Antiphon.

For the benefit of Burbling Psalmist and all others concerned about the number of books CofEians have to use, salvation may soon be at hand: Messrs Collins & Co appear to be preparing a composite prayerbook, lectionary and bible.
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
I have used the one volume Christian Prayer for years now - maybe 10 or 15. The book is starting to fall apart. It came with a short four page insert for the common texts - Gospel Canticles, Psalm 95, etc. Yesterday I just noticed a typo on the common text sheet in the Magnificat. Instead of "all generations will call me blessed" it says "all generations will call be blessed."

I am embarrassed that it took me all these years to notice.

But now I don't trust my eyes. Has anyone else who uses this volume and insert sheet noticed such a typo?
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Brother Martin's first installment of office-book reviews was in this issue (PDF) of the Abbey Letter.

Thank you. That is a very helpful comparison, and Brother Martin (no relation) offers sage advice about routine and the office.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I have used the one volume Christian Prayer for years now - maybe 10 or 15. The book is starting to fall apart. It came with a short four page insert for the common texts - Gospel Canticles, Psalm 95, etc. Yesterday I just noticed a typo on the common text sheet in the Magnificat. Instead of "all generations will call me blessed" it says "all generations will call be blessed."

I am embarrassed that it took me all these years to notice.

But now I don't trust my eyes. Has anyone else who uses this volume and insert sheet noticed such a typo?

There are a few such typos. This morning you may or may not have noticed that in MP of Wednesday IV , the antiphon for the OT Canticle doesn't have a number. Hardly a big deal, but sloppy. The hymns are very badly type-set. Hymn 12, for instance, in the first measure of the last line has a random natural sign modifying a non-existent B (underneath the D). Hymn 32 actually has a wrong note: fifth line, first measure, third note (should be a G, but an F is printed).
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've noticed one typo in the Liturgy of the Hours for Africa, as the canticle at EP which should read Praised be the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ reads PRAISE be the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I've also noticed that on some copies of the LOH for Africa, including my own, the odd page has not been cut correctly and a small piece of the surplus paper sticks out, requiring trimming.

The worst office book for typos I've yet come across was the first printing of The Mundelein Psalter, which had a great many! I think Oblatus was kind enough to provide an errata table for this book some time ago.
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
There are a few such typos. This morning you may or may not have noticed that in MP of Wednesday IV , the antiphon for the OT Canticle doesn't have a number. Hardly a big deal, but sloppy. The hymns are very badly type-set. Hymn 12, for instance, in the first measure of the last line has a random natural sign modifying a non-existent B (underneath the D). Hymn 32 actually has a wrong note: fifth line, first measure, third note (should be a G, but an F is printed).

Yes, I've noticed several small errors over the years. Somewhere one of the Easter Psalm antiphons is completely wrong.

I just could not believe that I had missed this one all these years. Of course I usually read Morning Prayer in the morning and am often still asleep and I often quote the Gospel Canticle from memory. (Okay. I'm not as attentive as I should be!)
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
The worst office book for typos I've yet come across was the first printing of The Mundelein Psalter, which had a great many! I think Oblatus was kind enough to provide an errata table for this book some time ago.

Here it is. I'm sure it isn't complete; it's just what I found in the pages I've used so far. The psalter has been on the shelf for a good while: it's a fine book (other than the typos); I've just been occupied with other books.
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Serious question, without meaning to take the thread off topic, but don't these people use editors? Don't they have proofreaders? Sheesh.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Serious question, without meaning to take the thread off topic, but don't these people use editors? Don't they have proofreaders? Sheesh.

That's my question more and more as I see new books reach the market apparently unproofed.

There must be something in publishing companies' production cycles that sometimes short-circuits this quality control. A case in point is the St. Helena Breviary, Personal Edition, published with lots of errors and quality problems, even though the OSH sisters' Monastic Edition is virtually flawless thanks to their long years of developing and praying through that edition. The Personal Edition was published by Church Publishing, apparently in a bit of a rush. I don't think the sisters produced it; my guess is that Church Publishing took the Monastic Edition and extracted the texts, had the sisters give it some level of review, and then sent it to press without careful editing and certainly without being prayed through by anyone.

[ 19. August 2010, 17:05: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by +Chad (# 5645) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
Messrs Collins & Co appear to be preparing a composite prayerbook, lectionary and bible.

Unless I'm misreading the promo blurb, it isn't a full edition of CW : Daily Prayer.
quote:
It includes Prayer During the Day and Night Prayer, which gives users a short prayer to say during and at the end of their day. It also includes a Lectionary of readings, giving two readings for every day of the year.
However, anything that reduces the necessity to carry around a library.
 
Posted by moonfruit (# 15818) on :
 
oblatus, thanks for the link to those reviews. Having a look at those, and a sniff around, I've ordered the Mennonite prayer book, Take Our Moments and Our Days. I'll let people know what I think of it [Smile]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by moonfruit:
oblatus, thanks for the link to those reviews. Having a look at those, and a sniff around, I've ordered the Mennonite prayer book, Take Our Moments and Our Days. I'll let people know what I think of it [Smile]

Always glad to find a reason to post on my favorite topic by far. I will look forward to your review of the Mennonite book.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
What is the newest version of Celebrating Common Prayer? I've completely lost track of the changes.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
What is the newest version of Celebrating Common Prayer? I've completely lost track of the changes.

I'd say it's this new edition of The Daily Office SSF.

I've got a copy, and it's a big improvement in many ways. Abandoned its own lectionary, though, and relies on the CW one...or whatever one you'd like to use. Perhaps that's a plus!

[ 23. August 2010, 03:22: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I've got a copy, and it's a big improvement in many ways. Abandoned its own lectionary, though, and relies on the CW one...or whatever one you'd like to use. Perhaps that's a plus!

Ooh! May 2010! I knew they had been tinkering with lectionaries for years, but not that they had put their ideas forth in yet another published tweakage. Thanks for the info.

[sigh] I really should try freezing my credit cards in ice sometime...

[ 23. August 2010, 21:20: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
It hardly seems like Franciscan poverty to keep replacing office books with such frequency. [Disappointed]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Attended Vespers at 5 p.m. in Holy Name Cathedral today. I've been meaning to find out how they do the Office there.

A young man who has finished setting up the altar and lighting the candles for the 5:15 p.m. Mass then rolls in a library book-cart stocked with 20 or so copies of the Daughters of St Paul edition of Christian Prayer: The Liturgy of the Hours. This is the fat black hardcover with red page edges. Just so happens I've brought my leather-covered copy with gold page edges and helpful ribbons. Also on the cart are 10 or so copies of Catholic Book Publishing's Shorter Christian Prayer, the slim red fake-leather volume. The cart is placed in the cross-aisle (which runs from transept to transept) just to the right of the center aisle. Ten or 12 people pick up books and take places.

At 5:00, two women with their own DSPs open and in hand emerge from the sacristy in street clothes ("business casual"), and each takes a place at the head of the center aisle, at nave level, to lead one side of the congregation. The officiant on the epistle side (I'll call her the First Reader [Eek!] announces the page numbers for the place in the psalter and for the collect for St. Rose of Lima that will be used at the end. "Those taking part in Vespers, please stand."

The opening versicle and response are done as expected, although nobody adds Alleluia after Amen. The hymn is skipped entirely (which makes sense to me if we're not singing...I'm not big on reciting hymn texts).

The First Reader says the first antiphon and all repeat it. She then says softly, "This side begins," and her side says the first stroph of the (Grail) psalm, and the sides alternate, including dividing the Gloria Patri in half. The First Reader reads the psalm-prayer after the Gloria Patri, and then says "Together..." and we all say the antiphon again. (Using the order in the book, which is a good practice to prevent confusion, but I contend that this order is a long-perpetuated error and that the repeat of the antiphon should be right after the Gloria, and then the psalm-prayer if used. But doing it right would require a different book or service sheet.)

Same pattern followed for the second psalm and the canticle.

So far this has all been at nave level without amplification, which is why I scuttled up to a closer pew when the service began.

Now the Second Reader goes up to the Gospel-side lectern, which has a microphone, and says the reading without introduction or conclusion. She goes right ahead into the responsory, and the people respond well and without confusion.

The First Reader says "Those participating in Vespers please stand for the Canticle of Mary," and reads the antiphon on Magnificat, which we repeat. "Together..." and we say the Magnificat together. First Reader does the expected ceremonial of sign of the Cross at the beginning, and she bows for the Gloria Patris throughout Vespers. (I love how this edition of the breviary repeats the Gospel canticle in place every day in the psalter, eliminating a major page flip...well done!) Antiphon repeated at the end.

The intercessions are done using the responsive option, dividing each petition between Second Reader and all. First reader introduces Lord's Prayer, which all recite in unison.

Page number is again given for the St. Rose of Lima collect, which First Reader reads. She then says the final sentence to end Vespers.

Straightforward and not hard for me to follow, although I'm familiar with the rite and the book. An elderly regular asked me twice for the current page number, as I'm sure it was hard to hear when given at the beginning without amplification.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Attended Vespers at 5 p.m. in Holy Name Cathedral today. I've been meaning to find out how they do the Office there...

That was basically my experience as well, though the horse (I) arrived before the cart, and Vespers was prayed by me as well as I could from memory. Thankfully the common Magnificat translation that I know was used.

I found the use of the ambo/lectern/whatever odd given the informality of the whole thing. In my case, the priest-celebrant of the 5:15 Mass also presided at the office, in collar and jacket. There were some core office attendees then as well--almost all women. It seems that they have trained some of these to lead. Good!
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I found the use of the ambo/lectern/whatever odd given the informality of the whole thing. In my case, the priest-celebrant of the 5:15 Mass also presided at the office, in collar and jacket. There were some core office attendees then as well--almost all women. It seems that they have trained some of these to lead. Good!

Yes, going up from nave level to the lectern (I want to call it an ambo, but there are two of them, and I thought an ambo was both a lectern and pulpit in one) seemed unnecessary. Apparently the lectern/ambo is The Place From Which All Readings Are Proclaimed, even a short one at Vespers.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It hardly seems like Franciscan poverty to keep replacing office books with such frequency. [Disappointed]

Having looked at it in the bookshop yesterday, I can assure you that, sadly, the paper is definitely reflective of Franciscan poverty.

Thurible
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
So did they use Christian Prayer or Shorter Christian Prayer?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
So did they use Christian Prayer or Shorter Christian Prayer?

Christian Prayer in the Daughters of St Paul edition, as the officiants referred to page numbers in there. Presumably the copies of Shorter Christian Prayer were in case they ran out of the other book or there were people who prefer the slim volume and can find their own way in it.
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
Has anyone heard of a project to retranslate the LOTH now that the third edition of the Roman Missal is done?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Has anyone heard of a project to retranslate the LOTH now that the third edition of the Roman Missal is done?

Maybe we'll hear something after the Revised Grail Psalter is released, whenever that will be. [Snore]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Yes, going up from nave level to the lectern (I want to call it an ambo, but there are two of them, and I thought an ambo was both a lectern and pulpit in one) seemed unnecessary. Apparently the lectern/ambo is The Place From Which All Readings Are Proclaimed, even a short one at Vespers.

[With apologies for prolonging the tangent!]

I got curious and found the answer here. The ambo on liturgical north is called the Ambo of the Evangelists, and the south/cantor one is called the Ambo of the Epistle Writers. Ah, how precious.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
So the preacher has to decide whether he's preaching on the epistle or the gospel?

Thurible
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I got curious and found the answer here. The ambo on liturgical north is called the Ambo of the Evangelists, and the south/cantor one is called the Ambo of the Epistle Writers. Ah, how precious.

They seem to have gotten the sides right, at least. Thanks for the research...now I can call each an ambo without apology.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
So the preacher has to decide whether he's preaching on the epistle or the gospel?

Thurible

I believe they only preach from the "Ambo of the Evangelists." They also read the Epistle (and Old Testament and Gospel) from the Ambo of the Evangelists.

The only thing I have ever seen the "Ambo of the Epistle Writers" used for is the cantor. Perhaps I shall rechristen it the "Ambo of the Flailing-Armed Song Leader." [Snigger]

[That being said, I imagine they use it for the tag-team Gospel readers on Palm Sunday and Good Friday.]
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Some of you may be interested in the curiosity that is this book from the Anabaptists which oddly enough appears easier to get in this country than in the US but the website seems to have a trojan on it so I am not linking to it.

Jengie
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Just popping in to this thread to report that St. Faithful-in-the-Backstreets has recently introduced daily Morning Prayer. We use the latest Franciscan Office on Mondays to Fridays, and the 1662 Prayer Book on Saturdays and Sundays!

Ww thought at first that perhaps only the priest and A. N. Other might attend, but numbers vary from 2 to 7, which is not bad for a small parish with a (very) small regular congregation. Several people have said how much attendance at Morning Prayer (perhaps on just one or two days a week) is helping their own personal spiritual growth. It is good not only to have prayer offered daily, but also to have the church door flung wide and the bell rung to remind the locals that we are open for business!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Glad to hear that the daily office is getting off to a good start in your parish. That is an interesting idea to use the SSF Daily Office on weekdays and the BCP at weekends.

What do think of the latest edition of the Daily Office SSF? I rather like it myself and use parts of it in conjunction with the RC LOH.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
We use the SSF Office mainly because Father and several members of the congo are members of the Third Order, but we are also trying to be good children by using services approved by the Canons of the C of E! The SSF Office is close enough to Common Worship to allow this - we also use the CW lectionary.

Personally, I quite like the SSF book, and we are getting used to how it works and where things are.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Ian // (Grr, my return key keeps going and it's gone again!) // Do the pages feel as annoying to use as I'd imagined they might when I saw the book in the shop? They felt really, well, cheap. // Thurible
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Ian // (Grr, my return key keeps going and it's gone again!) // Do the pages feel as annoying to use as I'd imagined they might when I saw the book in the shop? They felt really, well, cheap. // Thurible

When you mentioned the paper quality before, I ran to my copy [of the brown Daily Office SSF latest edition with the gold tau-shaped cross on the front] and checked, and I think the paper's fine. I wonder whether yours is from a different batch with cheaper paper? Overall, I thought the quality definitely higher than that of the old Celebrating Common Prayer.

[ 03. September 2010, 21:20: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Seems OK to me (my edition is the same as Oblatus'). Mind you, using it can be a bit clunky on anything other than a ferial weekday.....

Ian J.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
I've been following this discussion of the Daily Office with great interest; it has been really cool to see all the ways everyone else has been praying the Office.

I just wanted to add my .02 (.013 pounds for my UK friends), in that after years of really wanting to get into the DO, and some time of praying a disjointed, cobbled-together form of the DO, I got my hands on the Holy Cross Breviary , which has been referenced several times on this thread. I have been using it for about a month, and I really enjoy it.

It is based on the 1979 BCP (which I know will be an issue for some people, but is not so much for me), and rendered in contemporary ('Rite II'-ish) English. The language is really well-done though; it is one of the best moder n language translations I have ever seen; much better than the RCC's current LotH or (IMO) Common Worship. The Psalter is pointed for chant and divided on a two-week cycle; it also includes office hymns. The Lectionary appoints an OT reading at both Lauds and Vespers, with an Epistle lesson at Lauds and a Gospel lesson at Vespers (the volume does not include the readings themselves). Time commitment is solid, but not colossal: about 25 min. for Lauds and Vespers, and 10 min. for Diurnum and Compline (Longer, though, if one sings/chants the office).

I really feel that the breviary is well done; the same volume is used by the monks of Holy Cross, and has been since the mid-seventies (it actually preceded the 79 BCP, and was based on the draft form). The volume includes the full office except for readings. If you don't mind 'modern English' (I don't if it is well done) or the 79 BCP (I prefer the 28 BCP, but I've no problem with the 79), then there is a lot to like about the Holy Cross breviary. While I do not foresee making a change in the near future, this volume could also be useful for DO beginners who want to get used to using a breviary, and then move up to something more complicated (like the AB). Best of all, it is only $25, much cheaper than most office books.

Sorry about the length; I hope maybe someone finds it useful.
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
Jon,

I think you sum up many of my positive thoughts about the "A Monastic Breviary" from OHC. My chief complaint is the omission of some of the imprecatory psalms/verses from the Psalter and the translation of the Lord's Prayer. This omission was made up for in the Breviary of the Order of St. Helena, though from what I understand of the language of said book, I am not that interested in obtaining it.

I keep working on a Breviary for our local community, but in fits and starts as I take feedback from folks about the time they have to commit to offering the office, etc. Right now, part of me is considering 3 offices a day over a 10 week cycle that would wind up having all 150 psalms recited in that period, 1 (or one portion of longer psalms) per hour.

Rob+
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Fr. Rob

I do agree about the imprecatory psalms; I too would prefer to see the full psalter included, and the LP translation is pretty bad; outside of that, though, I have found little to complain about.

The St. Helena Breviary, on the other hand, is basically an updated version of the OHC breviary that has been totally revamped in 'gender neutral' language. It is taken to the point that even a simple "Glory to the Father and to the Son..." is nowhere to be found in the entire book. It really is atrocious, and I would advise that it be avoided. The OHC breviary, on the other hand, is a pretty good intermediate step between the bare-bones BCP office and something really big, like the RB or AB.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
I think you sum up many of my positive thoughts about the "A Monastic Breviary" from OHC. My chief complaint is the omission of some of the imprecatory psalms/verses from the Psalter and the translation of the Lord's Prayer. This omission was made up for in the Breviary of the Order of St. Helena, though from what I understand of the language of said book, I am not that interested in obtaining it.

I, too, like A Monastic Breviary a lot and share your dislike of leaving out psalms and parts of psalms. I'd rather be given the option to do that myself (I wouldn't leave any out) rather than having the compiler decide what's not appropriate for me to use.

If you don't require or desire inclusive language, the St. Helena Breviary is not for you, but if the problem is poorly inclusivized language of many of the books out there, I think the St. Helena Breviary is one of the best thought-out and most prayed-through inclusive-language books available. It wasn't done with an easy formula like "Lord" becomes "God" and "kingdom" becomes "reign"; it's clear that much thought was given to each change and then the results were used in daily prayer for several years to make sure the texts flowed well and were singable. This breviary also retains a certain traditional quality: the chant version retains the OHC chants and combines the chant notation with the texts (making for a fat book!). Definitely the OSH sisters did not take a "here's massive revision in your face" approach resulting in some sort of unrecognizable office. It's a very organic next-step version of the OHC office in an inclusive-language direction. Again, if inclusive language is off the table for you, never mind, but if it's worth considering, I think this is a very high-quality project.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
It's always validating to hear that others have similar issues/concerns.

I went into St. Helena Breviary expecting to be very disappointed and to be even more soured on inclusive language. Instead, the dear sisters astounded me! Their work surely deserves a notable place in liturgical history. If the time ever comes in the future for denominations to make that changeover, I hope the OSH sisters are allowed to direct the endeavor and to take their time in getting it right.

As for A Monastic Breviary, I like it, but if I recall correctly the RSV was the translation utilized. My ears are attuned to the NRSV, and it jolts me slightly to switch back, if only ever so slightly. Am I picky? Hmmm....
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
quote:
As for A Monastic Breviary, I like it, but if I recall correctly the RSV was the translation utilized. My ears are attuned to the NRSV, and it jolts me slightly to switch back, if only ever so slightly. Am I picky? Hmmm....
According to the front matter in the volume, the Psalter, Canticles and Collects are from the 1976 Proposed BCP (which would become the 79 BCP), and from Lesser Feasts and Fasts '73. The scriptural passages are from the New English Bible or the Jerusalem Bible.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Sorry to DP.

I'm glad to hear that the St. Helena volume is well-done; if we are going to go the inclusive/gender-neutral route, we should at least be able to do it well. I just have a problem with any system of prayer that finds itself unable to say even a simple "Glory to the Father and to the Son..."

I don't know if that makes me some kind of weird traditionalist, but there it is...
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I don't know if that makes me some kind of weird traditionalist, but there it is...

Well, you're in good company, anyway. Welcome to Eccles. [Snigger]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
According to the front matter in the volume, the Psalter, Canticles and Collects are from the 1976 Proposed BCP (which would become the 79 BCP), and from Lesser Feasts and Fasts '73. The scriptural passages are from the New English Bible or the Jerusalem Bible.

Thanks to your mention of the OHC breviary, I remembered to take mine with me to church this evening to lead Evening Prayer (in place of the regular officiant who was feeling unwell). I was going to use antiphons on the psalms and the Magnificat, but the psalm antiphons get confusing for the congregation if there are two or more psalms, because of the way we move from one psalm to the next. So I just read the one on the Magnificat before and after that canticle, as there was a congregation of one other than myself.
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
So, as Oblatus can probably attest (we've been in touch off-list over the summer), I have been working on an office book for my nascient parish community. I've experimented with several Psalm arrangements and varying orders for the hours (and number of hours, for that matter).

During that time, I have reviewed several volumes and think I finally have developed something I am going to be able to deploy for use as a centerpiece of family devotion.

I must point out that those I minister to aren't huge fans of chant (I am), and so the entire order is balanced for all.

I have set it up with a Sunday/Holy Day Vigil (Eve PM), and Sunday/Holy Day Evening Prayer (Eucharist takes the place of MP and NP); M-F has Morning, Noon, and Evening with the option to add a second reading and a brief Eucharist (i.e., Frankenmass); with Saturday having Morning only.

The usual order for Morning, Noon, and Evening is:

Call to Worship
Opening Prayer
Psalm (spoken)
Reading
Reflection
Hymn (sung - either contemporary or traditional)
Kyrie and Intercessions
Lord's Prayer
Closing Prayer
Canticle and Gloria Patri (chanted)

The psalms are on a 10 week cycle, with each Psalm getting used at least once (save Psalm 117, which becomes the permanent verse for the Alleluia at the Eucharist) and with Psalm 141 being used bi-weekly at the Vigil. Psalms 133 and 134 are combined.

Five weeks with distinctive intercessions and closing prayers are provided (except at Noon when the same psalm litanies are used daily as the intercession). The Vigil intercession is taken from the Syriac form of the Office and includes the Trisagion.

The Psalms will be an adapted 79 BCP version. Readings will not be included, as securing the rights would be too expensive for a local-level project. (This fact, and the fact that GIA won't tell anyone when the Revised Grail Psalms will be released resulted in adapting the 79 BCP text for the psalms. I considered just citing the Psalms and reading them from our bibles - NLT - but figured that I should probably just include them to minimize page flips and confusion.)

Given this description, what thoughts might you have about the flow, and what suggestions might you have for what I have described?

Rob+
 
Posted by Fulrad (# 15750) on :
 
I understand that the Liturgy of the Hours English translation of the RC office is not up for review.

However, are there parts of the new missal translation which would affect the Office. For example what is the new reply to 'The Lord be with you...'


------------------------
Sightings of Chrysostom, please. On our church blog. [Smile]
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fulrad:
However, are there parts of the new missal translation which would affect the Office. For example what is the new reply to 'The Lord be with you...'

"Right back atcha, dude."

I'll get me coat.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
Given this description, what thoughts might you have about the flow, and what suggestions might you have for what I have described?

Rob+

I'm sure great thought has already been placed into this decision, but I'm curious why you just didn't put the canticle after the reflection and the hymn at the end. There must be a reason. Inquiring mind want to know. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
Given this description, what thoughts might you have about the flow, and what suggestions might you have for what I have described?

Rob+

I'm sure great thought has already been placed into this decision, but I'm curious why you just didn't put the canticle after the reflection and the hymn at the end. There must be a reason. Inquiring mind want to know. [Big Grin]
Martin L,

For a couple of reasons.

1) I tend to find the usual placement of office hymns to be odd, either between the opening versicles and the psalmody, or (even worse) between the reading and the canticle.

2) I tend to be a big fan of non-repetitive liturgy. Ending with the Gospel Canticle and its Gloria Patri as the Trinitarian conclusion of the office just feels right, especially when chanted.

3) Allows for the selection of a hymn that is thematic to the reading/reflection when the Office is used as a public liturgy... and keeps it tightly woven into the fabric of word/reflection/response. Granted, this doesn't address the Psalmody's lack of thematic consideration, but short of either a cathedral office which does not hit all the Psalms, or selecting and announcing the Psalm each hour, it's the best I think I can manage for a regular office book.

Rob+

PS - I forgot to mention that I secured permission from both Liturgical Press and ICEL to adapt the intercessions found in Benedictine Daily Prayer and The Liturgy of the Hours for this project. Not all will be used, but many will.

[ 15. September 2010, 01:35: Message edited by: FatherRobLyons ]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
That makes sense. I always get a chuckle over where a particular breviary has deigned to place the office hymn, which I typically omit anyway as I do not chant the office. One never knows where the hymn will pop up next. I keep waiting for it to be sandwiched between the first Gloria Patri and the Alleluia.

Your office looks quite appealing for use. Congratulations on securing the permissions.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fulrad:
I understand that the Liturgy of the Hours English translation of the RC office is not up for review.

However, are there parts of the new missal translation which would affect the Office. For example what is the new reply to 'The Lord be with you...'


------------------------
Sightings of Chrysostom, please. On our church blog. [Smile]

Not only that,but all the collects for the office have been re-translated, and the current psalter is due to replaced by the revised Grail Psalter, so that it matches the one used at mass.Some other parts of the office,such as some antiphons and responsories, are taken from or are similar to chants from the mass. These will also no longer match.

Even if a translation is'nt currently planned it's rather obvious that they'll have to get around to it eventually.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
1) I tend to find the usual placement of office hymns to be odd, either between the opening versicles and the psalmody, or (even worse) between the reading and the canticle.

One reason for having a hymn between the first lesson and Magnificat in the Anglican Solemn Evensong is to give the thurifer time to get ready for the full censings during Magnificat. Although it's ideal if the censings aren't finished by the time the Gloria Patri after Magnificat comes around, so the organist can thrill everyone with the necessary improvisation leading up to the Gloria Patri. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
Here is the draft for Morning Prayer as I used it this morning. The reading was James 1: 1-18. Normally the lesson and the intercessions would be lead by a second reader, as would alternating portions of the psalm.

WEDNESDAY

Morning Prayer

CALL TO WORSHIP

+ O Lord, open our lips.
And we will proclaim your praise.

Each day, O Lord, is a gift of your grace.
Your mercies are new every morning.

Guide our steps by the light of your Word.
Shield us from harm and keep us from evil.

PRAYER

O Lord, heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this new day. Defend us with your mighty power, and grant that this day we may fall into no sin, nor run into any kind of danger; and, in all that we do, direct us towards those things which are pleasing in your sight. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

PSALMODY

Week One
Psalm 8
DOMINE, DOMINUS NOSTER

1 O LORD our Lord, *
how exalted is your Name in all the world!


2 Out of the mouths of infants and children *
your majesty is praised above the heavens.
3 You have set up a stronghold against your adversaries, *
to quell the enemy and the avenger.

4 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, *
the moon and the stars you have set in their courses,
5 What is man that you should be mindful of him? *
the son of man that you should seek him out?

6 You have made him but little lower than the angels; *
you adorn him with glory and honor;
7 You give him mastery over the works of your hands; *
you put all things under his feet:

8 All sheep and oxen, *
even the wild beasts of the field,
9 The birds of the air, the fish of the sea, *
and whatsoever walks in the paths of the sea.

10 O LORD our Lord, *
how exalted is your Name in all the world!


READING

A reading, appointed for the day, is proclaimed.

If a celebration of the Eucharist is to be appended to this hour of prayer,
two readings are proclaimed, with the second being from the Gospels.


REFLECTION

A brief reflection on the reading may be offered.

HYMN

A hymn may be sung.

INTERCESSIONS

Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.


Give us peace in our days, O Lord;
The peace which comes only from you.

Let your pastors declare the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And pierce each person’s heart with the mystery of your love.

Keep us from losing heart as we witness the suffering of the world around us;
And strengthen us to use our talents to relive the suffering we encounter.

Show us how to walk this day in love;
That we may imitate Christ who gave himself up to death for love of us.

Do good, O Lord, to those who have been good to us;
And help us to honor those who have placed their trust in us.

Have mercy upon all who are dying this day;
Grant that they may trust in you for rest.

Intercessions and thanksgivings may be offered silently or aloud.

THE LORD’S PRAYER

And now, as our Savior Christ has taught us, we boldly pray:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Let your kingdom come.
Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.
Save us from the time of trial,
and deliver us from the evil one.
For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours,
now and forever. Amen.


PRAYER

God our Creator, today you bring us to a new stage of our journey with you. May the presence of your Son be our guide, and the love of the Spirit our light, until we come at last to you, the one true God, who is blessed forever and ever. Amen.

CANTICLE
Benedictus

Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; *
he has come to his people and set them free.
He has raised up for us a mighty savior, *
born of the house of his servant David.

Through his holy prophets he promised of old,
that he would save us from our enemies, *
from the hands of all who hate us.
He promised to show mercy to our fathers *
and to remember his holy covenant.

This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, *
to set us free from the hands of our enemies,
Free to worship him without fear, *
holy and righteous in his sight
all the days of our life.

You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, *
for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way,
To give his people knowledge of salvation *
by the forgiveness of their sins.

In the tender compassion of our God *
the dawn from on high shall break upon us,
To shine on those who dwell in darkness
and the shadow of death, *
and to guide our feet into the way of peace.


DOXOLOGY

+ Glory to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit;
as it was in the beginning,
is now, and will be forever. Amen.


(Note: The intercessions above are adapted from the Litany for Wednesday, Week I&III at Lauds found in Benedictine Daily Prayer: A Short Breviary.)

[ 15. September 2010, 11:32: Message edited by: FatherRobLyons ]
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
Cambell's From Breviary to Liturgy of the Hours gives an account of how the Office Hymn wound up at the beginning of all the hours in the new LOTH: in short, without much reflection or debate or rationale. The older order, where the Hymn came before the Canticle, marked the end of the monastic elements at Lauds and Vespers (psalmody) and the elements proper to the older cathedral use office.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Hey, Fr. Rob; why such a weak psalter cycle?

Maybe I've just become so used to the 2 week cycle (it is what I did even before starting with the OHC breviary), but I very much like that schedule. Is it just to reduce the time it takes to pray the office (and therefore the time commitment for laypeople)?
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Hey, Fr. Rob; why such a weak psalter cycle?

Maybe I've just become so used to the 2 week cycle (it is what I did even before starting with the OHC breviary), but I very much like that schedule. Is it just to reduce the time it takes to pray the office (and therefore the time commitment for laypeople)?

I've tried various cycles... 2 week, 4 week, 7 week from the 79 BCP. None of them really felt right for meditatively entering into the Psalms in our context. I want people to have the chance to focus on a particular Psalm and give it the reflection and consideration it deserves as a part of their spiritual formation. I also want to give them fewer excuses to fail.

Using this cycle, one would offer the entire Psalter at least 4 times per year. This is better than my congregation currently manages. In the same way, we simply follow the section divisions in our Bibles for readings. We use a common bible in our congregation (NLT Second Revised Edition) in Chronological Order (admittedly, we thin out the OT readings, but the Gospels and the remainder of the NT are read through entirely annually). We are still experimenting with the daily lectionary layout so that could yet be tweaked... and then there is the matter of getting approval of the final project before publication can occur.

Rob+
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Father Rob that's rather a good brief office. sBut presumably one can ditch that translation of the Lord's Prayer and use the 'Our Fsther who art on heaven..' as being more common, ecumenical and poetic? I didin't know that the so-called modern one was still used (serious question!)
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Father Rob that's rather a good brief office. sBut presumably one can ditch that translation of the Lord's Prayer and use the 'Our Fsther who art on heaven..' as being more common, ecumenical and poetic? I didin't know that the so-called modern one was still used (serious question!)

Sebby,

Since this is an office book for our parish, we are simply using the form we use in parish life. It isn't exactly the modern form, and we tried to keep it closer to the cadence of the original form while making it more imperative of voice. If someone chose to change it on the fly at home, that would be fine, but I don't think anyone in our congregation would. We have all been using this form for four years now and are quite pleased with it.

Rob+
 
Posted by Wilfried (# 12277) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Father Rob that's rather a good brief office. sBut presumably one can ditch that translation of the Lord's Prayer and use the 'Our Fsther who art on heaven..' as being more common, ecumenical and poetic? I didin't know that the so-called modern one was still used (serious question!)

We sing the modern Lord's Prayer as printed in the BCP79 every Sunday at our AC Rite 2 parish. I hear it often enough. It's not dead.
 
Posted by Fulrad (# 15750) on :
 
I really like Fr Rob's office, it gives plenty of space, and not too many words / images.

We are wondering about introducing such an office.

I'm not so sure about ending with the canticle. I need to think that one through. Is there historical precedent on this one?

------------------------
Sightings of Chrysostom, please. On our church blog. [Smile]
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Fulrad:
I really like Fr Rob's office, it gives plenty of space, and not too many words / images.

We are wondering about introducing such an office.

I'm not so sure about ending with the canticle. I need to think that one through. Is there historical precedent on this one?

The closest I am aware of is the West Syrian rite's usage of the Gloria in Excelsis as the closing hymn at Morning Prayer (followed by a short prayer and blessing). In the west, I am not immediately aware of an example, but it would be simply addressed by flipping the Canticle and the post-reflection hymn provisions.

Incidentally, I presented the draft of the first week. Some suggestions were made, including not keeping an office sabbath (a concept borrowed from The Paraclete Psalter) on Saturdays. As a result, the Psalter was slightly reworked, and is now on a 9 week cycle instead of 10 weeks, with the Sunday Morning and Evening Psalms being selected as traditional morning and evening psalms. They are not repeated in the weekdays of the Cycle. Excluded are psalms 51 and 134, which are already used at least eight times a year (which is about the frequency of the other psalms) during certain points of the office.

Rob+

[ 16. September 2010, 23:49: Message edited by: FatherRobLyons ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I see that Midwest Theological Forum have placed a few sample pages from their new edition of the Latin Liturgia Horarum on their website.

As far as I can make out, the standard of printing may be better than the Vatican Press edition, but it seems that MTF have printed the office on two columns on each page like many pre-Vatican Two breviaries, which some may find less clear than the Vatican Press edition, which spaces everything out over the full page like the vernacular editions.

Has anyone actually seen a copy of the MTF LH for themselves?
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
I use Christian Prayer, a one volume version of the US version of the LOTH. I am not familiar with the 4 volume set, but I seem to recall that many feast days have proper hymns. Is this correct? If so, is there somewhere online that I could go to find the proper hymns for the feast days?

Thanks.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Daily Office question re: order of the readings

Let us say, for sake of example, that in one office I have a reading from the OT, an epistle and Gospel lection, and a patristics selection. Am I correct that the proper order is:

OT -> NT -> GOSPEL -> PATRISTIC

If so, why does the Patristic selection come after the Gospel (and what is the proper response to it)?

If not, what is the proper order?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Let us say, for sake of example, that in one office I have a reading from the OT, an epistle and Gospel lection, and a patristics selection. Am I correct that the proper order is:

OT -> NT -> GOSPEL -> PATRISTIC

If so, why does the Patristic selection come after the Gospel (and what is the proper response to it)?

If not, what is the proper order?

That's a lot of readings in one office.

I think the usual thing is to have an OT lesson and an NT one, each followed by a canticle (Magnificat and Nunc dimittis, respectively, at Evening Prayer). If there's a third lesson, like a patristic one, some commentators say it should immediately follow the second biblical one (so before the Nunc at Evening Prayer) and others say it should be between the second canticle and the Apostles' Creed.

We do what our 1979 BCP recommends by having at Morning Prayer the OT and Epistle/Acts readings in Year 1 and the OT and Gospel readings in Year 2. The remaining reading (Gospel in Year 1 and Epistle/Acts in Year 2) is the first reading at Evening Prayer, and the second is a patristic one. Unless it's a holy day with two biblical readings at MP and two more at EP.

The Gospel reading works differently in an Office than at Mass. At Mass it's the climax of the Liturgy of the Word, often the basis for the sermon, and the source of antiphons on the Gospel canticles at the offices (in RC breviaries, anyway). It's in the honorable final position among the readings, and we stand while it's proclaimed from a fancy book, perhaps chanted.

At the Office, our BCP doesn't have us stand for a Gospel lesson, and it isn't required to be the last lesson. This is not to downplay it, but it's more of another installment in a reading of the Gospels in course than it is a centerpiece and theme-setter of the whole liturgy. At the Office, we're reading the whole Bible (more or less) in course throughout the year (or two). This was more obvious in early BCPs when each day's Office readings were the next whole chapter of several biblical books.

Another point about the patristic reading coming after the Gospel, if it does, is that it's a commentary on the scriptures (perhaps those just heard) and perhaps is kept separate to avoid seeming to raise the patristic writings to the level of Scripture. It also continues a pattern from traditional breviaries (monastic and otherwise) at Matins/Vigils where the first nocturn's lesson would be scriptural, the second patristic, and the third either hagiographical or a patristic commentary on the Gospel of the day.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Thanks Oblatus.

I didn't mean to suggest that we would have so many readings at one office; we never have more than three, obviously with canticles or hymns interspersed. I just wondered about placing the patristic lesson after the Gospel; the way we have been doing it is to have it immediately following the Gospel canticle at Lauds (that is, preceding the Creed). I was just wondering if there was any agreed upon way of doing it.

We generally have 2 (OT and Epistle) readings at Lauds, and 2 (OT and Gospel) at Vespers. When I recite the office privately, I use the patristic selection at diurnum, but for public recitation I am toying with the idea of replacing the OT reading at either Lauds or Vespers with the patristic lesson.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
While we are on Patristic readings, some might be interested in this resource. 2 Years Patristic Lectionary
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Okay, one more daily office question.

I've heard people speak of aggregating MP and EP, but I've never actually seen it done. How would one go about doing that, assuming you wanted to do so?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I've heard people speak of aggregating MP and EP, but I've never actually seen it done. How would one go about doing that, assuming you wanted to do so?

I've done it privately, to catch up if I haven't prayed any office all day and it's getting late. Just add the other office's psalms and lessons. Generally, I pray Evening Prayer as given but pray all the day's psalms and read all three of the day's lessons (OT - Magnificat - Epistle - Nunc - Gospel - Creed). I don't worry about collects...the prayers section of the office is just as given for Evening Prayer. Some of the Morning Prayer collects wouldn't make much sense in the evening anyway.

Another approach, rather than catching up, is to realize that the Church Universal has kept the Office on your behalf, and you can just reconnect at the current point in the cycle, pray the appropriate office for the time of day, and move on.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
I would say you really can't. MP is by definition a *morning* office, EP and *evening* one. There is no time which is both morning and evening, so there is no time one could say both.

As Oblatus has said, the Church has prayed the missed office. If you were unable to pray it due to a work of charity (including necessary self-care), then rejoice in that! If you were unable to pray it due to negligence, laziness or carelessness, meditate on that fault instead of trying to 'make up' what you really can't.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
It really has little to do with making up a missed office; I have actually heard of parishes or oratories serving aggregated MP & EP, but have never actually attended such a service. I was just wondering how that would be done.

Thanks, though.

[ 03. October 2010, 20:34: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
It really has little to do with making up a missed office; I have actually heard of parishes or oratories serving aggregated MP & EP, but have never actually attended such a service. I was just wondering how that would be done.

Thanks, though.

Ah, I misunderstood. Such aggregation seems pointless to me, but I'd be interested in learning more about such a practice and why it's done.

I do know of the practice in some monasteries (probably some decades ago) of aggregating the little hours either with each other or something like Matins-Lauds-Prime.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
I aggregate OoR and DP most days. I'm afraid it makes no sense to me to aggregate MP and EP as any attempt to do so loses the time-of-day character the office (should!) have.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
It makes more sense to me (and frequently happens at Chez Mon Ewe) to aggregate EP and Compline. They flow a lot better into one another. And at least in the US BCP, the major prayers of Compline are right there in the EP choices.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
It makes more sense to me (and frequently happens at Chez Mon Ewe) to aggregate EP and Compline.

Made sense to Cranmer too.

Thurible
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I'm sure there used to be (maybe still is) a church in the city of London with this daily schedule: 12.00 Morning Prayer; 12.15 Eucharist; 12.45 Evening Prayer. Or something like it.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
It makes more sense to me (and frequently happens at Chez Mon Ewe) to aggregate EP and Compline.

Made sense to Cranmer too.

Glad he agrees with me.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm sure there used to be (maybe still is) a church in the city of London with this daily schedule: 12.00 Morning Prayer; 12.15 Eucharist; 12.45 Evening Prayer. Or something like it.

The Church of St Mary Magdalene in Toronto has Morning Prayer at 10.30am, Solemn Mass at 11am, Evening Prayer at 1.15pm (among other Sunday services), presumably so it's possible to pray a complete liturgical day in church with others. When there's Solemn Evensong and Benediction, it's at 4pm or later, though.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Our sister parish (one town over) is working on adding Lauds/Morning Prayer/Mattins before Sunday mass, with maybe Lauds and Vespers other days during the week. They just really want some manifestation of the daily office in their parish, but we aren't sure yet what form its going to take.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Our sister parish (one town over) is working on adding Lauds/Morning Prayer/Mattins before Sunday mass, with maybe Lauds and Vespers other days during the week. They just really want some manifestation of the daily office in their parish, but we aren't sure yet what form its going to take.

A very successful model I've seen in a TEC place or two is to make it standard policy to automatically precede your first morning Mass with Morning Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes tops), and to automatically precede any evening Mass with Evening Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes).

It seemed to help by introducing it slowly. Rather than jumping to daily, perhaps start by praying the offices only before currently-scheduled masses. This might mean evening prayer only comes up before days like Ash Wednesday, and morning prayer only on Sunday and Wednesday (or whatever). At least it would give time in the parish to build a following. Although, I suppose if there already is a demand for daily offices every day of the week, then this might not make much of a difference.

[ 04. October 2010, 22:48: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
quote:
A very successful model I've seen in a TEC place or two is to make it standard policy to automatically precede your first morning Mass with Morning Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes tops), and to automatically precede any evening Mass with Evening Prayer (by about 15-20 minutes).
This is basically what we're looking at doing to start, except that the rector over there is very concerned that people will stop coming to mass if they stick morning prayer earlier. This is not as big of a danger in our historically AC parish, but that parish is historically pretty low, and until relatively recently it was the evangelical/low church Anglican practice to alternate Mattins/MP with the Eucharist, or to have the Eucharist only once a month (a la most Protestant groups). Really, we just don't want to confuse anyone, or devalue in any way the Eucharist.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
...but that parish is historically pretty low, and until relatively recently it was the evangelical/low church Anglican practice to alternate Mattins/MP with the Eucharist, or to have the Eucharist only once a month (a la most Protestant groups). Really, we just don't want to confuse anyone, or devalue in any way the Eucharist.

Ah, then I'm sure it is a good idea to tread lightly. One wouldn't want to rekindle fond memories: "Oh, Morning Prayer! When I was young, we used to go to Mornin' Prayer every Sunday, and church was just packed."

Perhaps it can be taught very carefully as an add-on disciple. I'd imagine it would be prudent to avoid music at all costs [for now], to dissociate this from the old hour-long sung Morning Prayer services of a bygone era. 10 minutes of spoken office should do it. If it's close in time to Mass, then it should be fairly clear that it is expected people will do both.

[Also, to build an audience, it might be good to simply train people to enter and take a pew quietly, rather than to wait in the entry until the office is over.]
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
From the website "New Liturgical Movement"

quote:
A couple of our readers have made note of this free and ready to print, two-year Scriptural-Patristic Lectionary for use at the Office of Readings (Vigils). This utilizes the two-year scriptural lectionary that Rome had prepared as an alternative to the one-year lectionary in the Liturgy of the Hours, together with the patristic readings to correspond with them.
[Edited to remove copyrighted material. See link for remainder of article. -- Mamacita, Host]

[ 06. October 2010, 03:32: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've also noticed the two-year patristic lectionary which was referenced on the NLM website. I wish some publisher would produce it in book form for use with the LOH Office of Readings.

Are these the same readings which Solesmes publish in French and Latin in the "Lectionnaire Monastique"?
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Hosting

dkpintar,

Please do not copy entire posts from other websites. This falls under Commandment 7 which restricts use of copyrighted material. Also, please note that there is a UBB Code Practice Thread on the Styx board where you can practice inserting URLs.

Thank you.

Mamacita, Eccles Host
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
mamacita: Sorry, my enthusiasm got the best of me.

antiphon: I plan to sit down this weekend and make comparisons with existing two-year formats.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
The closest I am aware of is the West Syrian rite's usage of the Gloria in Excelsis as the closing hymn at Morning Prayer

I was about to post to say that, on feasts of certain rank and above, Matins in the Byzantine Rite ends with the Great Doxology, (which is essentially the Gloria enhanced). I was going to say this because my only two experiences of Matins (we don't do it in my parish) have been in Slavonic, and served as part of the Vigil, so I haven't really understood, not having any English experience with which to compare it, and by that point had lost the energy to try to follow. My only experience has been in churches of Greek tradition, where, on Sunday mornings, the Great Doxology has been sung immediately prior to the start of the Liturgy. I have been told, and for a few years simply accepted, that this is due to abbreviation of services in the parishes and that, in Greek-style monasteries, the Liturgy would be preceded by Matins, of which the Great Doxology is the conclusion.

However, having just checked the Book of Hours for myself, it appears that Matins does not end with the Great Doxology at all! but is followed by a number of litanies and, on certain days, other hymns. I have double-checked this against the outline of Matins in Taft's Liturgy of the Hours in East and West, which supports my reading of it.

All of which means that this post is now really rather pointless unless somebody with more experience or knowledge of this is able to correct my understanding.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
When Fr Ephrem Lash put together his "An Orthodox Prayer Book" for the Oxford University Press, he included the Great Doxology as part of Morning Pryaer. Likewise, Jim Forest included it in his prayers section of the book "Praying with Icons", so I think there's a tradition of using it within Orthodox prayer manuals.
 
Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
When Fr Ephrem Lash put together his "An Orthodox Prayer Book" for the Oxford University Press, he included the Great Doxology as part of Morning Pryaer. Likewise, Jim Forest included it in his prayers section of the book "Praying with Icons", so I think there's a tradition of using it within Orthodox prayer manuals.

There certainly is, and it is a part of Matins, it just doesn't appear to form its conclusion, contrary to what I had previosuly been told. (I'm sorry for the confusion with subject and verb in my earlier post).
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
News from Baronius on their Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum, a re-edition of the three-volume Collegeville Breviary in Latin & English, originally published in 1963: "The excellent news is that the final corrections from the Censor have been received a few days ago. We anticipate that the implementation of the corrections and the finalising of the Breviary will take a couple of weeks. After this, we will formally apply for the Concordat cum originali to be granted – the necessary approval that liturgical texts require in order to be used and also to ensure that the text is accurate. As soon as the permission is granted, the printing will commence." Apparently this was posted 28th of October 2010. It looks like this one will finally become a reality, perhaps still in time for the Christmas shopping? I'm very curious about the price point they'll choose...
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
News from Baronius on their Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum, a re-edition of the three-volume Collegeville Breviary in Latin & English, originally published in 1963: "The excellent news is that the final corrections from the Censor have been received a few days ago. We anticipate that the implementation of the corrections and the finalising of the Breviary will take a couple of weeks. After this, we will formally apply for the Concordat cum originali to be granted – the necessary approval that liturgical texts require in order to be used and also to ensure that the text is accurate. As soon as the permission is granted, the printing will commence." Apparently this was posted 28th of October 2010. It looks like this one will finally become a reality, perhaps still in time for the Christmas shopping? I'm very curious about the price point they'll choose...

My totally uninformed speculation is that they will go for around the £100 mark; I would be surprised if they went much less than that, and I suspect that much over £150 they may be pricing themselves out of the market, even though this still compares well with secondhand copies of the original Collegeville version, with the less popular Pius XII psalter. By comparison, Daniel Lula's reprinting of the Anglican Breviary retails to the UK for about £60, the Monastic Diurnal and Diurnale Romanum about £40 each (plus shipping) - all single-volume productions - whilst Nova et Vetera's (very handsome) two volume Breviarium Romanum is £170 plus shipping.
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Transferred from another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I'm wondering what is considered the best Anglo-Catholic form of the Daily Office... does the historic Prayer Book office rank on the list? (If such an agreement can be had). I'm aware of the Daily Office thread, however, my question, relates to the historic Prayer Book offices and the Anglo-Catholic preference.


 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
The Bishop of Ebbsfleet I believe edited an edition of the Prayer Book Office edited for Anglo-catholic sensitivities. On its own the BCP office has massive and very probably insurmountable weaknesses due to the fact that most seasons, feasts and vigils are completely ignored and there are no antiphons.

I know a lot of ACs who use Prayer Book offices now and then, myself included, but only by way of an 'occasional discipline'.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
As far as public praying of the Office is concerned, I'd say the various official BCPs (1662 in England, 1979 in the USA, etc.) are well used in Anglo-Catholic parishes to keep the full daily liturgy comprising Morning Prayer, Mass, and Evening Prayer. The Office admits of fewer observances because at its core is the recitation of the whole Psalter and the in-course reading of most of the Bible. A typical lesser feast affects the Mass but not usually at the Office unless a related patristic reading is used at one of the Offices.

On major and principal feasts, the psalm and scripture cycles are interrupted, and the officiant can add antiphons from a reliable source (in the USA, there's A Prayer Book Office, for instance, or I sometimes use the Monastic Diurnal).

While a BCP office may not be Anglo-Catholic in terms of a wealth of antiphons and responsories, it is a very manageable way for an A-C parish to offer the full daily liturgy in the church, in common. That's very Anglo-Catholic, IMHO.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Astley:
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
When Fr Ephrem Lash put together his "An Orthodox Prayer Book" for the Oxford University Press, he included the Great Doxology as part of Morning Pryaer. Likewise, Jim Forest included it in his prayers section of the book "Praying with Icons", so I think there's a tradition of using it within Orthodox prayer manuals.

There certainly is, and it is a part of Matins, it just doesn't appear to form its conclusion, contrary to what I had previosuly been told. (I'm sorry for the confusion with subject and verb in my earlier post).
Michael Astley, the OCA place near me serves a Vigil for the Resurrection every Saturday evening. From what I can piece together they basically follow the Soroka prayer booklets for Vespers and Matins.* I never poke my nose in a prayer book when I'm at an Orthodox service, so I have to grub through the books when I get home, matching the music I remember to the text in the Soroka prayer books.

This is how Matins ends up at this OCA place. I write out much more of this than is reasonably necessary, but I don't know the form and I don't know how to indicate what takes place in an abbreviated fashion.
The music sets up a tremendous climatic urgency all through the Great Doxology.

This pace seems to pick up even more from "Every day will I bless you" through to the confident conclusion of "Continue your lovingkindness to those who know you."

Then there is a bare comma before the choir charges into the Trisagion at a pace only slightly more restrained than the preceding.

The pace then lets up so that the Troparion of the Resurrection is almost a little courtly dance.

Then the usual pace for the litanies and all the rest is used.


The point of all this explanation is to say that the Great Doxology seems the climax of the service. There is a greater urgency that wells up beneath even the fervid pace of the singing. And, it seems that urgency is only increased until we all arrive at the Troparion when the Great Truth is stated simply in a restrained courtly dance: "Today salvation has come to the world!...He has given us victory and great mercy!"


If I convert to Orthodoxy before I die, it will be because of the masterful and moving evangelical urgency of the Great Doxology coupled with the pleas for mercy that rush in upon its heels. Oddly enough, I can take or leave the Divine Liturgy (probably because I'm not fed), but it is the Vigil for the Resurrection that positively compels me.


* Matins (ISBN 1-878997-42-4) and Great Vesper (ISBN 1-878997-40-8), both Adapted and Compiled by Rev. Igor Soroka, St. Tikhon's Seminary Press; South Canaan, Pennsylvania 18459, USA; 1992.

** The priest does an "on-the-fly" translation of all the Thees 'n' Thous into modern English. It is most amazing to hear him do it for the Canon of St. Andrew read out from Mother Mary & Kallistos Ware's edition.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
As far as public praying of the Office is concerned, I'd say the various official BCPs (1662 in England, 1979 in the USA, etc.) are well used in Anglo-Catholic parishes to keep the full daily liturgy comprising Morning Prayer, Mass, and Evening Prayer. The Office admits of fewer observances because at its core is the recitation of the whole Psalter and the in-course reading of most of the Bible. A typical lesser feast affects the Mass but not usually at the Office unless a related patristic reading is used at one of the Offices.

On major and principal feasts, the psalm and scripture cycles are interrupted, and the officiant can add antiphons from a reliable source (in the USA, there's A Prayer Book Office, for instance, or I sometimes use the Monastic Diurnal).

While a BCP office may not be Anglo-Catholic in terms of a wealth of antiphons and responsories, it is a very manageable way for an A-C parish to offer the full daily liturgy in the church, in common. That's very Anglo-Catholic, IMHO.

I suppose it all depends how you define 'anglo-catholic', and what side of the Pond you're on. Over here, I would guess that the vast majority of anglo-catholic priests, a few laypeople, and many others who wouldn't call themselves a-c, got used to the Roman Catholic Divine Office soon after its publication. The C of E, first unofficially (Celebrating Common Prayer) and then officially (Common Worship: Daily Prayer) eventually caught up with things and the latter office is very similar (antiphons, canticles, structure) to the Breviary. Hence it should be satisfactory for most anglo-catholics, but my guess is that many haven't bothered to change, or have an ideological preference for a Vatican-approved version.

Oblatus is right, that where the office is recited publicly, the BCP version is often preferred. That applies to Sunday Evensong in many parishes.
 
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
OK - my experience is obviously strange, I keep being told so by Eccles ...

The churches I've attended regularly that say the offices publicly have used Celebrating Common Prayer and latterly Common Worship: Daily Prayer. We're also encouraged, as a parish, to use the Reflections for Daily Prayer for personal devotions, which is based on the CW:DP Morning Prayer office readings.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I've mentioned before that we use the Franciscan Daily Office, given that our parish priest and several members of the congregation are Members of the Third Order of the Society of St. Francis. It is, however, very similar to the Common Worship Office, and fits very well with our Anglo-Catholic ethos. One person (who forgets that we are C of E) cavilled somewhat when we introduced it, insisting that we should use the Roman Office........ [Roll Eyes]

Recalling that we are C of E, therefore, Sunday Matins is firmly 1662 BCP, by the book. None of yer Carflick accretions 'ere!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
One person (who forgets that we are C of E) cavilled somewhat when we introduced it, insisting that we should use the Roman Office........ [Roll Eyes]

That's a definite cross-pond difference. While some individual U.S. Episcopalians (including me sometimes) avail themselves of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, use of RC books in churches is practically unheard of...very few exceptions, and I still have heard of zero Episcopal parishes in the USA that use the Roman Missal, other than to borrow the offertory prayers therefrom.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I still have heard of zero Episcopal parishes in the USA that use the Roman Missal, other than to borrow the offertory prayers therefrom.

Sorry to quote myself, but I must hasten to add that a Daily Roman Missal resides on the celebrant's lectern at Low Masses in our shack, and mainly on major feasts, the celebrant inserts propers from it, such as the entrance and communion sentences, and other bits such as the alleluia and prayer over the gifts, ad libitum. But the rite being used is still the 1979 BCP Rite II.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Or, formerly, the lections for daily mass (in a crosspost).

[ 13. November 2010, 15:00: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:

I think the usual thing is to have an OT lesson and an NT one, each followed by a canticle (Magnificat and Nunc dimittis, respectively, at Evening Prayer). If there's a third lesson, like a patristic one, some commentators say it should immediately follow the second biblical one (so before the Nunc at Evening Prayer) and others say it should be between the second canticle and the Apostles' Creed.

My current habit is to use the OT reading for the current year followed by an OT canticle*, and the Gospel, followed by the Benedictus, in the morning. In the evening i use the other NT reading. When i have time, for a second reading in the evening i'll use a patristic or other non-Biblical reading. (I particularly like "Celebrating the Seasons" for this.) I use a NT canticle after the Epistle reading and the Magn. after the Non-scriptural reading.

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
[That's a definite cross-pond difference. While some individual U.S. Episcopalians (including me sometimes) avail themselves of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, use of RC books in churches is practically unheard of...very few exceptions, and I still have heard of zero Episcopal parishes in the USA that use the Roman Missal, other than to borrow the offertory prayers therefrom.

*Over the years, I have prayed the office either from LoH or from BCP (1928 way back when, and 1979 since, well, 1979). Currently i use the BCP but often add or substitute bits from the LoH when i am at home and have both volumes at hand. For variety, I sometimes substitute the O.T. canticle from from LoH for the 1st canticle in the BCP. I sometimes use the LoH antiphon for the Benedictus and Magnificat on feasts and Sundays.

The Nunc D. i use at Compline (or at least a mini-version thereof) (if i don't fall asleep 1st! [Smile] )

[ 13. November 2010, 15:27: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
In Ye Olde Books for the Office, 1st Evensong seems to be given precedence over 2nd Evensong (for reasons I'm not entirely clear about). In compiling the Domestic Ordo (essentially adding antiphons on the Mag and Nunc to the Prayer Book office, using the CW lectionary), some of the propers don't have 2nd Evensong antiphons so I've been using the 1st Evensong ones (given that there'll only be one Evensong, and that on the day).

Does it, therefore, make sense to swap the 1st Evensong and 2nd Evensong antiphons for feasts that do actually have a First Evensong according to the modern rules.

(Incidentally, don't ask me why I don't just use another office. I'm not sure is the answer.)

Thurible
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Including Sundays.
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
Fr.Gregory Woolfenden (Memory Eternal)in his Daily Liturgical Prayer demonstates the historic importance of First Vespers . The only comprehensive comparative study of the Divine Office that I had read up to now was the magisterial work of Robert Taft, SJ, The Liturgy of the Hours East and West. Woolfenden is grounded in Taft, of course, and also in Paul Bradshaw's work. The present volume is a gem, focused upon a simple observation: that in its origin, the daily office was a meditation upon the transition from darkness to light, from sleep to wakefulness and, most importantly, from death to life. The Paschal Vigil serves as a paradigm for this meditation. Thus, the liturgical day properly begins with sunset and ends at sunset, not from sunrise till night. The Eastern Churches, without exception, keep this pattern even today. For us Orthodox, for instance, Vespers looks forward to a feast, which culminates in our sacramental participation in its mystery through the Divine Liturgy. The notion of Second Vespers is quite alien to an Eastern Orthodox sense of liturgical commemoration, except, rarely, during the Great Fast (Forty Martyrs of Sabaste, for instance, when a Presanctified Liturgy is served). Fr. Woolfenden goes through the structure and development of all the major Eastern liturgical families as well as the Roman and Benedictine Office and the Ambrosian and Mozarabic variants.
When I was a boy, my Short Breviary already incorporated the abolition of First Vespers for all but First Class Feasts (now termed Solemnities) and Sundays, and that is all that remains of the ancient vesperal anticipation of a feast after the promulgation of Vatican II's LOTH. I was always chagrined when I attended Vespers at the Cowley Fathers. They were using the Sarum grounded Hours of Prayer, and, given the coincidence of First and Second Vespers of weekday feasts, Second Vespers were rare, largely confined to Sundays and the major celebrations of the year. I thought that the good fathers were being quaint.
Dr. Woolenden also emphasizes the centrality of not only Vespers and Lauds, but also of the nocturnal Vigil. After Vatican II, some acknowledgement of the nocturnal vigil character of the new Office of Readings is conceded in the official commentaries, and in the supplementary Resurrectional Gospel options, but, as you know, it may be said at any time of day and its nocturnal use is probably now exclusively monastic.
The modern western office, then, departs radically from the ancient notion of the liturgical day insofar as the LOTH generally begins with sunrise and ends at sunset. It is not essentially centered upon the Resurrectional theme of the ancient Office. It seems as if the hierarchs at Vatican II were hesitant, with some good reason, for accepting the judgment of the liturgical scholars regarding how to renew the Office. But, I think, in what finally transpired, they threw away the baby with the bath water
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
So if I wanted to embellish the Prayer Book office... what are some resources I could use to add antiphons to the Office?
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
Another question... Office hymns, where do they "go" in the Office?
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
quote:
Another question... Office hymns, where do they "go" in the Office?
I think that depends largely on what form of the office you use. In the 79BCP, it comes after the collect(s) of the day toward the end of the office.

In the Holy Cross/St. Helena Breviary (which I use and like very much) it comes after the second lesson and before the NT canticle. I don't really like that arrangement.

In the 1662 BCP, it is after the second lesson and before the Benedictus (I think...).

In the current Roman Liturgy of the Hours, the hymn comes immediately after the opening versicle.

Those are the only ones I can remember off the top...
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
So if I wanted to embellish the Prayer Book office... what are some resources I could use to add antiphons to the Office?

I'd suggest the ones Oblatus already mentioned. Galley's
Prayer Book Office (which is rare as hen's teeth and thrice as expensive on the web market--I still have yet to get a copy), and Monastic Diurnal Revised (which is a little easier to get a hold of and not as expensive).

If you don't mind inclusive and/or expansive language, St. Helena Breviary: Monastic Edition is quite impressive. (The Monastic edition, to my knowledge, must be purchased from the sisters. It does include the chant music. The Personal Edition from Church Publishing does not.) I'm not completely sold on the idea of inclusive/expansive language, but the sisters really did an incredible job, IMHO.

[cross-posted with jon, but I'll leave it due to the links]

[ 15. November 2010, 20:44: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
So if I wanted to embellish the Prayer Book office... what are some resources I could use to add antiphons to the Office?

This is a good resource site. With a generous selection of material from Galley's Prayer Book Office.
 
Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
Here's a pretty great customizable online breviary. Just check off what you want in the dropdowns.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
So if I wanted to embellish the Prayer Book office... what are some resources I could use to add antiphons to the Office?

This is a good resource site. With a generous selection of material from Galley's Prayer Book Office.
[Overused]

The man who does that blog has done several projects I've only thought of doing myself: 1979 psalter with pointing, antiphons, and psalm prayers, all in one place. Just awesome. Thank you for sharing the link. (Great blog to follow, too.)

I may bill you for the toner cartridge I'm about to use up. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
@Oblatus You know you really want to get into contemplative prayer [Big Grin]

Check out the Lectionary booklets. He's upped the Daily Office Book's ante by including patristic lessons!

Amazing chap. Someone help him with the Sanctoral.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Here's a pretty great customizable online breviary. Just check off what you want in the dropdowns.

Yes, it's superb and just keeps getting better. Haligweorc is amazing. [Yipee]
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
For additional antiphons, hymns (Sarum use):
Rev. Paul Hartzell, Prayer Book Office (IMHO, far superior to Captain Galley CA's version, as difficult to procure as Galley but sometimes available on ebay) or the Anglical Catholic Church of Canada's Liturgy of the Hours (Abridged version, available through Lulu). The supplemental material is also Sarum use.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
There's also the PDF of the Salisbury Antiphoner, translated/edited/compiled by G. H. Palmer for the Wantage Sisters.

Thurible
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
There's also the PDF of the Salisbury Antiphoner, translated/edited/compiled by G. H. Palmer for the Wantage Sisters.

Thurible

Does that source provide antiphons for the weekdays? I'm looking at the current week (Trinity 24) and it only provides an antiphon for the Sunday Magnificat, am I to use that antiphon for the week or does it simply not provide weekday antiphons?
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I don't know if I'm doing the right thing but I'd use the ferial antiphons from after Epiphany, as I do the English Hymnal hymns. pp 21-23.

Thurible
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Here's a pretty great customizable online breviary. Just check off what you want in the dropdowns.

I've heard that they've received permission from Church Publishing to use the Galley antiphons but haven't gotten them in yet...
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick:
Dr. Woolenden also emphasizes the centrality of not only Vespers and Lauds, but also of the nocturnal Vigil. After Vatican II, some acknowledgement of the nocturnal vigil character of the new Office of Readings is conceded in the official commentaries, and in the supplementary Resurrectional Gospel options, but, as you know, it may be said at any time of day and its nocturnal use is probably now exclusively monastic.
The modern western office, then, departs radically from the ancient notion of the liturgical day insofar as the LOTH generally begins with sunrise and ends at sunset. It is not essentially centered upon the Resurrectional theme of the ancient Office. It seems as if the hierarchs at Vatican II were hesitant, with some good reason, for accepting the judgment of the liturgical scholars regarding how to renew the Office. But, I think, in what finally transpired, they threw away the baby with the bath water

The Liber Hymnarius , at least for a number of times, gives two options for the hymn at the Office of Readings, one if sung at night and another if sung during the day. There is the option to recite the OoR before Compline of the day before. I took advantage of this last Sunday. Since I was up 'til past 1 a.m. I decided to pray the next day's OoR with Compline before going to bed.

I also seem to recall a rubric somewhere in my Liturgy of the Hours (Latin American edition) dealing with OoR said at night vs. day, but I can't remember where or what it was.

I've got mixed feeling about this. I think on the whole it was a clever and good idea to free Matins/Vigils/Office of Readings from being necessarily tied to nightime/early early early morning. It was a great help to active parish clergy and it made it more accesible to average layfolk.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Not precisely the Daily Office, but I thought someone might be interested to pick up this rare rather rare book of Occasional Offices from the now sadly-defunct Angllican religous brotherhood the Society of the Sacred Mission, Kelham.

MM
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Not precisely the Daily Office, but I thought someone might be interested to pick up this rare rather rare book of Occasional Offices from the now sadly-defunct Angllican religous brotherhood the Society of the Sacred Mission, Kelham.

MM

Fortunately the SSM is not defunct, and indeed is now a sister- and brother-hood, though no longer at Kelham.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Not precisely the Daily Office, but I thought someone might be interested to pick up this rare rather rare book of Occasional Offices from the now sadly-defunct Angllican religous brotherhood the Society of the Sacred Mission, Kelham.

MM

Fortunately the SSM is not defunct, and indeed is now a sister- and brother-hood, though no longer at Kelham.
Pleased to be corrected on that one!
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
A question from another thread.

Hart, Eccles host.

quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
Anyone use the Monastic Breviary Matins as published by Lancelot Andrewes Press? If so, is it a good volume, i.e., worth the purchase? (I currently use the Monastic Diurnal from the same publisher.)


 
Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :
 
Just logged on and am curious: When I was in college forty years ago, there was an Episcopal parish nearby that did Morning Prayer every weekday at 8:30. It was always sparsely attended, but I enjoyed going when I could. How common is this practice nowadays anywhere in SOF territory?
 
Posted by daviddrinkell (# 8854) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
Just logged on and am curious: When I was in college forty years ago, there was an Episcopal parish nearby that did Morning Prayer every weekday at 8:30. It was always sparsely attended, but I enjoyed going when I could. How common is this practice nowadays anywhere in SOF territory?

We have Matins, Holy Communion and Evening Prayer every day - not even all cathedrals do that, and not just in Canada. I know of priests in the diocese who say the daily offices in the church every day.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
As far as i know, alas, the only church in the Episcopal diocese of Atlanta that does daily morning and evening prayer is the cathedral. They also have daily eucharist. The one other parish with daily eucharist (Church of our Saviour, reputedly the highest-candle one) does not, however, do the offices.

To my mild surprise, I occasionally hear of the Liturgy of Hours in a Roman Catholic parish, but only on a very very occasional basis
 
Posted by aig (# 429) on :
 
We have morning and evening prayer said daily at 9am and 5.30pm. The usual numbers attending are between one and six.
I don't think we are very unusual - I recently spent a couple of days on a course in Bromley and was delighted to find a church (near the car park) which had daily MP and EP which I could join (four other people were there each of the three days). It made staying on my own in a strange place a bit more joyful.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
The Daily Office isn't too common in TEC places around here in suburbia. When it is prayed, it is invariably before Holy Eucharist. I know of places that pray the office three or four times a week, but that's probably the max. There are some TEC churches in the city that do so. Unfortunately, the local cathedral has only just re-instituted 5 days worth of weekday Masses, having been down to three days for a couple years.

quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
To my mild surprise, I occasionally hear of the Liturgy of Hours in a Roman Catholic parish, but only on a very very occasional basis

Holy Name [RC] Cathedral in Chicago has started praying the Liturgy of the Hours two or three times a day, preceding a Mass but not Frankenmassed (so there's a pause between office and Mass).

[ 05. December 2010, 17:59: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Morning Prayer, here in not-Westphalia, is "usually" at 6.45 and 8.45, to allow for the w**k commitments of those who wish to indulge. Numbers are typically vary between 1 and 4 at each sitting.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Random sample: of the four parishes I've done placement at as an RC seminarian, only one has hours in common regularly (as a parish, all of the rectories pray together).
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Morning Prayer - 1928 BCP - is said 2 to 5 times a week in this parish depending on my schedule. Evening Prayer is a bit of a rarity. We are central to High in churchmanship. The allegedly AffCath place up the road NEVER has MP and only rarely has EP. It is a mass and fries parish.

PD
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Our (Anglo-Catholic) parish has been committed to keeping the MP-Mass-EP daily pattern for decades. Currently it's like this:

Mon-Fri
6.40am Morning Prayer
7.00am Mass
6.00pm Evening Prayer
[6.20pm Mass on Wednesdays and BCP Holy Days]

Sat
9.40am Morning Prayer
10.00am Mass
6.00pm Evening Prayer

Sun
7.30am Morning Prayer
8, 9, and 11am Masses
4pm Evening Prayer or Evensong/Benediction

Weekday attendance is low (in the single digits on average) but rather faithful.
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
Re.: Monastic Matins. It is an excellent companion to the Monastic Diurnal. And it is currently on sale (check out Lancelot Andrewes Press for details.)
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
A review here.

Thurible
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Tonight's BCP office (or, indeed, any other commemoration in Advent after Advent 2):

Collects for Advent 2, Advent Sunday, then St Nicholas

OR

Collects for Advent 2, St Nicholas then Advent Sunday?

I went for the first option at Matins but, as I approach Evensong, I wonder.

Thurible
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
If you run on the traditional Calendar

St Ambrose
St Nicholas
Advent Sunday, then the two fixed 'uns

St Ambrose and St Nicholas are both doubles, but a first Evensong of a doctor trumps the second Eensong of a Confessor and Bishop.

PD
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I should perhaps add that there is no need to add the Sunday collect on a Saints' Day falling on a weekday unless specifically directed to do so by the Rubrics.

PD
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
Just a bit of a random question- For those familiar with the pre-55 Monastic Diurnal or Anglican Breviary- I know that you kneel for the preces at lauds and vespers, but when do you stand? During the collect or during the closing versicles?
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
IIRC you kneel until after the closing versicles. After Lauds and Compline you then stand for the Marian antiphon.

PD
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
I use Fr. Hartzell's Prayer Book Office, which follows generally Sarum usage. The ferial days in Advent are "privileged ferias", that is, the Sunday is commemorated at Evensong and Matins by reciting the Magnificat or Benedictus antiphons, the versicle and response and the appropriate Sunday collect after the collect of the principal commemorated saint(s) (with the shorter ending to the Advent Sunday collect). Then I recite the antiphons for any additional commemorated saints with versicles and collect. Antepenultimately, I pray the collect for Advent I and the concluding invariable collects for the given hour. Fr. Harzell extends this notion of privileged ferias (Advent, Lent, Passiontide and Holy Week) beyond Sarum use to include Paschaltide. Ascensiontide and Pentecost week are already privileged as major octaves.
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
How does the Monastic Diurnal differ from the Anglican Breviary? I've ordered the LA Matins book but can't find a guide to use it, however, there is a guide from the Anglican Breviary, could I use the AB guide to maneuver the LA Matins?
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
Lancelot Andrewes Press publishes an English translation of the Rubrics of the Monastic Breviary. The Western Orthodox Benedictine Fellowship of St. Laurence (which, I believe, owns the press)(www.saintlaurenceosb.org) has online guides for the monastic office.
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
Brief question about the upcoming Octave of the Conception of the BVM... on the following days after Dec. 8th, are the antiphons, chapters, etc... taken from the Psalter, the Proper for the Season, or for the Common of the BVM?
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
"VII
4. The Office of a Day within an Octave is said with two Nocturns and three Lessons and as many Responsories of the Feast, in the order wich is noted in the Rubric of Responsories: except on Monday and Tuesday of the Octaves of Easter and Pentecost, in which it is said with three Nocturns, in the way of other solemnities, as is appointed in their own places. The Invitatory and Hymn are said as on the Day of the Feast. On the ferial Psalms are said are said the Antiphons, as on the Feast, but each for each Nocturn beginning from the first Antiphon of the first Nocturn, so that on the second day within the Octave in the first Nocturn is to be said the first Antiphon, in the second Nocturn the second Antiphon, and so on on each day in order without interruption even by an occurrent Feast, except the days within the Octaves of Easter and Pentecost. The Versicle of the j Nocturn and Responsories are taken from that Nocturn of the Feast, of which is the Absolution. The Lessons within Octaves of the Lord, except Monday and Tuesday of Easter and Pentecost, three are read from the Homily on the Gospel of the same day, which are given as proper each for each day. But within other Octaves they are said from some Sermon or Treatise, as apointed also in their proper places; which is oberved generally in all Octaves. But if in some Churches within the Octave of a Patron or Title of the Church, or of another Feast which in some Churches is accustomed to be celebrated with an Octave, in those Churches there are not kept proper and approved Lessons for within the Octave., the Lessons placed in second Nocturn of the Common of Saints are to be repeated, if the Octave is to be said of Saints, otherwise the Lessons of the Feast Day.
5 In the ij Nocturn after the Antiphon and Psalms is said the Chapter and Verse, as appointed in their places but if there be no proper ones given, they are taken as on the day at Sext, except on Tuesday and Friday, on which is said the  of the third Nocturn. Lauds and the Hours of the day are said as on the Feast itself.
6. Within an Octave the Office is said Semidouble, although only three Lessons are read; but on the Octave Day it is said Double, in Vespers within the Octave all is said as in second Vespers of the Feast, .and in first Vespers of the Octave Day all as in first Vespers of the Feast, unless otherwise noted in the proper places.
7. Within Octaves the usual Suffrages of the Saints are not said, nor are the Prayers said at Prime and Compline, even if the Office of a Sunday or a Semidouble Feast is to be said. On the Octave Day the whole Office is said as on the Feast.Day, unless it is noted otherwise in the proper places. For the rest, the manner of ordering the Office of an Octave is to be found below in proper Rubrics."

Above is from Fr. Jack Witbrok's Western Rite Printing Texts website. He has full rubrics and many texts for both the secular and the monastic breviaries, edited for western Orthodox use.
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Can you provide a link for that, Patrick? Thank you.
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
Fr. Witbrok's site: www.antiochian.org.nz/write/printtexts.html
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Traditional Anglican Suffrages and Responses for the Child King
From this church's website. What are they?

Thurible
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Traditional Anglican Suffrages and Responses for the Child King
From this church's website. What are they?

Thurible

If I might be so bold as to piggy-back on Thurible's request: What is the "Roll Call of the Saints" mentioned on the same page?
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Traditional Anglican Suffrages and Responses for the Child King
From this church's website. What are they?

Thurible

If I might be so bold as to piggy-back on Thurible's request: What is the "Roll Call of the Saints" mentioned on the same page?
I wonder if it is the
martyrology of the day?
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
If I want to say the Angelus/Regina Coeli at the proper time, would that be said before or after the Office at that time (presumably at Lauds, Sext, and Vespers?) or is the Angelus not said with the Office?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
If I want to say the Angelus/Regina Coeli at the proper time, would that be said before or after the Office at that time (presumably at Lauds, Sext, and Vespers?) or is the Angelus not said with the Office?

Before or after is up to you: various communities and individuals say it in either position. I have several monastic office books that have the community start with the Angelus/Regina Coeli (CSM, OJN) and have experienced a community that says it (silently, with bells) after the office (St Meinrad).

In our parish (we have MP and EP in church, but not midday), we end the office with the Angelus/Regina Coeli.

An advantage to starting with the Angelus is that it then occurs at precise times, such as 7am, noon, and 6pm, but that may not be as important as keeping the morning, noon, and evening times in general rather than up to the minute.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Here's the 1977 document (in Latin) that guided the development of Benedictine monasteries' liturgy:

Thesaurus Liturgiae Horarum Monasticae
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Re: Thesaurus
[Overused] Wonderful Christmas present. Thank you.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Re: Thesaurus
[Overused] Wonderful Christmas present. Thank you.

You're welcome. Be sure to open the bookmarks panel in Acrobat Reader to get help navigating the big file.

What's missing is the introductory sections that are available in English as The Monastic Hours. The posted file is just the Thesaurus itself.

I'm about to replace the posted TLHM file with a searchable one. Exactly the same file, but now you can search for a word or phrase.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Copied over from another thread

Hart, Eccles host

quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
Are there any rules with combining the day hours in the Monastic Diurnal? I don't see any special instructions, except to eliminate the secret Our Father before the hour. So does that mean one would pray through the entire hour and then begin the next in sequence?


 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
And another...

Hart, Eccles host


quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I was flipping through my copy of "Christian Prayer" and am reading through the music section and saw the section on psalm tones. Apparently, these are modern adaptations of the Gregorian tones... I'm wanting to know if there's more information on them. For instance, I am using the Manual of Plainsong to chant the Psalms, could I substitute the Murray/Bevenot tones for the Gregorian ones given there? For example, Psalm 4 for Compline is given as Tone II 1, so would I use the Murray/Bevenot Tone 2?


 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
And another...

Hart, Eccles host


quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
I was flipping through my copy of "Christian Prayer" and am reading through the music section and saw the section on psalm tones. Apparently, these are modern adaptations of the Gregorian tones... I'm wanting to know if there's more information on them. For instance, I am using the Manual of Plainsong to chant the Psalms, could I substitute the Murray/Bevenot tones for the Gregorian ones given there? For example, Psalm 4 for Compline is given as Tone II 1, so would I use the Murray/Bevenot Tone 2?


Alas, I got rid of my regular-sized Christian Prayer when I found a large-print one on sale at a ridiculously low price. Then I realized the large-print edition lacks the music appendix. Are the tones available anywhere in a scan or PDF?
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
Unfortunately I've not been able to find it online. If I can get a scanner that works, I'll scan it and PM it to you.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
We're (mostly) all familiar with the Revised Common Lectionary as a source for Mass readings. It turns out there's a Daily Office lectionary by the same crowd. It's called the Revised Common Lectionary Daily Readings, can be found for download at the CCT web site, and, IIRC, is the appointed Office lectionary for the ELCA's new Evangelical Lutheran Worship (aka the Cranberry book).

Has anybody on-board used this resource before? Can you compare it to another Office lectionary? I've read the guiding principles but am curious how well it works out in practice...
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the Ænglican:
Has anybody on-board used this resource before? Can you compare it to another Office lectionary? I've read the guiding principles but am curious how well it works out in practice...

Personally, I think it seems rather meager, and nothing for Sundays? I think it would work better for weekday Eucharist, perhaps.

I attended a feedback-gathering session on the draft Daily Office materials (for what later became ELW) at Valparaiso University's Institute for Liturgical Studies one year, and lots of wildly varying input was given, both from people who wanted to develop the LBW offices further (perhaps in the direction of something like Philip Pfatteicher's Daily Prayer of the Church) and from people who wanted a very freeform set of "resources" from which to piece together more or less spontaneous daily services for every setting and occasion.

What ELW ended up with was toward the latter, I think, with an outline and rite but leaving users on their own for a psalm schedule, a lectionary (largely), and any enhancements. I get the impression the Daily Office wasn't taken as seriously this time as in the LBW. I know one ELCA pastor (Gustav Kopka) who had even proposed a discipline of prayer every three hours throughout the day using the LBW offices, litany, and suffrages, and held some of these regularly in his church (University Lutheran, East Lansing, Mich.) at various times during the week. Not sure he'd have enough to do this with ELW.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
Oblatus, my sense is the same with regard to the ELW's commitment to the Offices. I know that the Missouri Synod was a major part of the formation of the LBW and insisted on certain parts, then pulled out shortly before the project finished, going on to create their own blue book. Perhaps the appearance of more robust/traditionally grounded Offices in the LBW as opposed to the current state of the ELW was linked to a (beneficial) Missouri influence...

I find several things about this lectionary odd, the inclusion of no Sunday text apart from what's in the Mass lectionary being only part of it. That's why I was wondering about the experience of it.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the Ænglican:
I find several things about this lectionary odd, the inclusion of no Sunday text apart from what's in the Mass lectionary being only part of it. That's why I was wondering about the experience of it.

Welcome to my world... [Help]

I have used the ELW office off and on, including the RCL-based daily lectionary. A few thoughts, respective of the fact that most here have probably never encountered it:

Concerning the lectionary:
It is structured to support the readings on the nearest Sunday. The days leading up to Sunday (Thursday-Saturday) anticipate the next Sunday, and the days following (Monday-Wednesday) are reflections on the prior Sunday.

The Psalter pattern that accompanies the lectionary is [Snore] . All of the three days preceding Sunday actually use the Sunday Psalm reading. All of the three reflecting days use a related Psalm.

Two readings per day--except Sunday--are appointed. The readings are meant to either anticipate or reflect Sunday's three readings. Sometimes that means we get the verses immediately preceding or following a Sunday reading. Sometimes there is a typological connection of the sort where the Song of Hannah from 1 Samuel would be used to accompany the Song of Mary in Luke 1. Sometimes the connection is much less explicit. Because there are two daily readings and three Sunday readings, one always has to do a bit of thinking to figure out what relates to what.

Martin's personal reaction: The only way I've ever been able to really appreciate the purpose of this lectionary is to read all of the related Sunday readings each and every day, and to reflect on how the daily readings might actually connect to it. Some days this is far more difficult than others. A person with a better memory might be able to read the Sunday readings once and remember them. I find this to be an annoying and inefficient way to handle readings. Furthermore, the absence of Sunday office readings is extremely annoying. After using this lectionary for quite a while during the development and adoption phase of ELW, I have decided to use it again only if I become desparately and hopelessly bored with everything else. Even then, I imagine the work required to use it will send me back screaming to something more meditative and less scholarly.

I much prefer using the Daily Eucharistic readings (from Lesser Feasts and Fasts). Quick readings, but still covers the big points in two years.

The only way I can see the RCL Daily Lectionary being of any use is for a pastor who wants to make scriptural allusions in his sermon, and has no idea where to begin. In that case, the daily lections could be mined for connections.

Concerning the ELW office:
I have made my peace with the office. It must be understood that it is blatantly written to be used as a corporate office--a church service, complete with music...and do recall that any self-respecting Lutheran church service must be at least one hour long and include music.

The ELW office, taken as a whole from start to finish without omitting anything, takes me far longer to pray than a simple BCP79 office taken from start to finish without omitting anything. Realistically, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two. The pattern remains basically the same.

Side note concerning liturgical reductionists:
What's the point of enshrining reductionism into the book liturgy? Just don't use the book if you don't want to.

Concerning daily worship in the ELCA
There is still a bit of confusion in the ELCA concerning daily services. We do not have a daily eucharistic lectionary. In the olden days, the suggestion was to use the Sunday readings and propers until Saturday afternoon of the next weekend. Now, that doesn't make much sense. I do vaguely recall reading somewhere a suggestion that, with the new Thursday-to-Wednesday "week," it would be better to start using the related Sunday's propers on the Thursday before and continue them until the next Wednesday.

Concerning the liturgical struggles:
Some of our foremost liturgists who were instrumental in making LBW what it was, have stated a vote of no confidence in ELW. Here is some interesting reading from Pratteicher, a popular Lutheran liturgist and a pastor retired from our nosebleed high First Lutheran, Pittsburgh.

[ 22. December 2010, 18:00: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
From Pfatteicher's blog post to which Martin L linked i noticed one factual discrepancy:
quote:
The pattern of the two major offices of Matins and Vespers, in which the Gospel Canticle comes before the prayers, is imposed upon the shape of the quite different office of Compline, and the result is that the lovely and satisfying conclusion of that quiet office which joins the end of the day with the end of life is destroyed. In the Roman, Anglican, LBW, and LW/LSB tradition, Compline has its distinctive form, and after the prayer and Our Father, the Nunc Dimittis is sung to conclude the prayer in an extraordinarily effective and moving way. With Simeon, we are ready to sleep, whether until morning or until the resurrection.
Hope this isn't too big a quote. Anyway, as a matter of fact in the Roman LoH the Nunc Dimittus is in a position analogous to the gospel canticles in Matins and Vespers/Evening Prayer, i.e., after the (short) reading and before the prayers. (This is also where the Nunc Dimittus is located in the Canadian BCP compline as well as (I think) the C. of E.'s Common Worship).

Actually i have had the thought that one could still have an effective and beautiful ending to compline even with the Nunc Dimittus in the same place as the other gospel canticles. I.e., one could move to the end of the office the responsory "Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit".

[ 22. December 2010, 19:17: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Anyway, as a matter of fact in the Roman LoH the Nunc Dimittus is in a position analogous to the gospel canticles in Matins and Vespers/Evening Prayer, i.e., after the (short) reading and before the prayers. (This is also where the Nunc Dimittus is located in the Canadian BCP compline as well as (I think) the C. of E.'s Common Worship).

I am surprised he would make that mistake.

I should have pointed out earlier that there is a table called "Supplemental Psalms for Daily Prayer" in Appendix F of Keeping Time, a supplemental ELW resource that explains/clarifies some options possible for the liturgical year and for the daily office. I believe it's the same table as that provided in LBW, but I haven't compared them closely.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
The first installments of the music of the Sarum psalter and antiphonary, in English, are up. The extent of the project reaches further than G H Palmer's earlier Sarum Diurnal Noted.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
A man in the Netherlands is publishing beautiful Liturgy of the Hours booklets with chants, in Latin and posting them on the linked website.

Any other Daily Office/LotH news?

My Revised Grail Psalter books are set to arrive today. [Yipee]
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
This is unrelated to Oblatus' question but does anyone have LA's Monastic Diurnal Noted or St. Dunstan's Psalter and if so are they worth the purchase?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
This is unrelated to Oblatus' question but does anyone have LA's Monastic Diurnal Noted or St. Dunstan's Psalter and if so are they worth the purchase?

I have them both and would answer Yes, without hesitation. Rich resources.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
My Revised Grail Psalter books are set to arrive today. [Yipee]

They're here: the plain one and the Singing Version. Same size. Both nicely printed. Need to study them and pray the psalms in the Office.

One disappointment: Why are USA publishers of the Grail (GIA now) allergic to the idea of putting in the asterisk or other mark to indicate the half-verse division for plainsong tones? The UK Divine Office books by Collins manage to include both the Gelineau pointing (accents) and the asterisk.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Any other Daily Office/LotH news?

I doubt it will tempt many people here, but take a look at Bread for the Day, an ELCA office book from AF.

For each day of the year, there is a page containing part of one of the RCL:Daily readings, the citations for all the appointed readings, a handcrafted prayer, and a hymn suggestion.

In the back of the book are the bare minimum, pared down, offices from ELW, along with tiny bios for those commemorated. There are also extra morsels here and there such as a prayer of blessing over the Easter food.

My opinions on RCL:Daily have been vocalized already. However, I do have hope that this book--put out by the Conference of Bishops--will help to plant the "Daily Office" seed in the ELCA roster.
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
Having used the Revised Grail Psalms throughout this week of prayer, I must say that I am quite disappointed in them, mainly because no matter how hard I try to put the classic Grail phrasing out of my mind, I cannot.

I find this revision to be far clunkier than I'd prefer, at least at this juncture. In part, this may be because I am reading them off a computer screen (my review copies haven't arrived yet - perhaps today?), but I am trying to keep an open mind.

I have to admit, though, that flaws aside, I still much prefer the original 63 Grail to any revision of it I have yet seen.

Rob+
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by FatherRobLyons:
Having used the Revised Grail Psalms throughout this week of prayer, I must say that I am quite disappointed in them, mainly because no matter how hard I try to put the classic Grail phrasing out of my mind, I cannot.

I find this revision to be far clunkier than I'd prefer, at least at this juncture. In part, this may be because I am reading them off a computer screen (my review copies haven't arrived yet - perhaps today?), but I am trying to keep an open mind.

This blog post does a good job of putting into words the unease I've always felt about the Grail translation. I like the phrase, "It insists upon itself." Quite.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
quote:
Peter says that he doesn’t like the film The Godfather because, “It insists upon itself.” The prose of the Grail insists. It demands that we notice that something new, fresh, and bold is happening. Sadly, its newness, freshness, and boldness are contemporary with Sanka, Tab, and Birdseye Frozen Vegetables.
This is actually a really good quote, and like Oblatus, I feel that it captures well not only how I feel about some translations of the psalter, but also about some of the Eucharistic prayers we have in the US (notably C, parts of D, and some of those in Enriching our Worship). Frankly, I wish I'd been able to say it as well.
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
This blog post does a good job of putting into words the unease I've always felt about the Grail translation. I like the phrase, "It insists upon itself." Quite. [/QB]

Well, it's been a full week now, and while I don't quite have the same reaction, I can't fault it, either. I find the RGP language to be just too wooden and stilted. The orignial Grail did not suffer from this, but it seems to me that the changes made have simply lessened the appeal of the translation.

I now must consider if it is time to part ways with the Grail Psalter... Psalms 4 and 91 are deeply engrained within me from the Grail (yes, moved verses and all!) and, to this day, echo through my mind at many moments. But... I have to say that it may be time for me to just bite the bullet and use the 79 BCP Psalter.

Interestingly, earlier this year, Paraclete Press came out with an NIV Psalter. I have long disliked the NIV, but I have to admit, the Psalter was good (at least as PP presented it). Now the NIV has been revised and from what I can tell, not for the better. After March, the original NIV texts will be unavaliable.

Rob+
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
Dragging this from out of the depths--- Does anyone use a homebrew lectionary for their DO? .

I'm annoyed with the length of the current lectionary readings. I read super-fast, and thanks to my learning style, I don't really retain anything I haven't read multiple times, but I can't sit and read a passage multiple times (ADD Woman to the rescue! After I look at this shiny thing over here!)

Meditative reading a la Lecto Divina is right out. Tried it, didn't work. Tried it again, really didn't work. Have to sit through it on Wednesday nights as part of a class, it makes me want to pull my teeth out.

I'm thinking of just reading two chapters from the OT and the NT at each Office, and barreling straight through.

Thoughts? Comments? "Don't do it, woman, you're insane!"s?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I'm thinking of just reading two chapters from the OT and the NT at each Office, and barreling straight through.

Thoughts? Comments? "Don't do it, woman, you're insane!"s?

I think that sounds like a good plan that will work for you. Do it! I've sometimes tried the 1549 BCP lectionary, which goes a whole chapter at a time (mostly), but it sounds like that wouldn't be enough. Do the two chapters.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Sounds like a plan.

For a while there (long, LONG ago) I was reading five chapters a day--one from the Pentateuch, Writings, Prophets, Gospels, and Everything Else. It was really cool, but it took a good chunk of time.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I'm thinking of just reading two chapters from the OT and the NT at each Office, and barreling straight through.

Thoughts? Comments? "Don't do it, woman, you're insane!"s?

Oh, Spiffy! It really depends on your excitement level. It is so easy to get bogged down in so many lengthy parts of the Old Testament. Perhaps consider skipping around from book to book, rather than going Genesis to Malachi. Read in time order instead, perhaps? Could be an interesting perspective. You'll know by the end of Leviticus whether you're able to continue with the 2-chapters plan!
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It really depends on your excitement level. It is so easy to get bogged down in so many lengthy parts of the Old Testament. Perhaps consider skipping around from book to book, rather than going Genesis to Malachi. Read in time order instead, perhaps? Could be an interesting perspective. You'll know by the end of Leviticus whether you're able to continue with the 2-chapters plan!

Probably should have mentioned that before I even knew what the Daily Office was, I read 6 chapters in the AM and 6 chapters in the PM, along with a section from the Psalms.

It took me 20 minutes to read 6 chapters. I wasn't kidding when I said I read fast.
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
I am currently brewing up a Daily Lectionary to use for the Office. I find that me and my people function best when given a single narrative (whenever possible) to focus on, one with a central message. So, using a Chronological Bible, I have ordered readings in chronological order, covering all of the New Testament (though parallel accounts are omitted) and condensing the Old Testament. During Advent, Lent, and Easter, there Daily Readings come from Isaiah, other minor prophets, and the Gospels (emphasizing mystagogical catechesis).

Each reading will then be paired with a patristic text that speaks to that particular passage directly, or to the concepts in the passage in general.

Currently, there are 881 unique Scriptural units to this schema of readings. By my estimate, that makes for 4 years.

I have also considered using a one year Chronological Bible, but the idea of spending January to September in the Old Testament with little relief isn't exactly appealing to me, and the length of the readings would take my morning vigils to, at my best guess, an hour in length. While I might manage that with determination, I can promise that, at this point, nobody in my congregation is going to be remotely interested in that kind of investment. :sigh:

Rob+
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Any other Daily Office/LotH news?

Ignatius Press recently published a volume for the complete Office of Compline from the modern Liturgy of the Hours with Gregorian Chant set by Fr. Samual Weber. Fr. Weber also set the official English translation to chant tones so anybody who want to sing this office can sing it in Latin or English every day of the year.

The Office of Compline
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Not news, exactly, but I have spotted a Scottish BCP bound up with The English Hymnal (a combination I have never seen before) here and the FSSP's reprint of the 1962 breviary here.
 
Posted by John H (# 9599) on :
 
Has anyone here tried the new (2010) edition of The Daily Office SSF? This is the "Franciscan" version of Celebrating Common Prayer, and has been updated to reflect Common Worship texts. (No update of CCP, as Common Worship: Daily Prayer is seen as fulfilling that role.)

I hope it's not in poor taste to post a link to my own review...

As with the previous books in the SSF/CCP tradition, the order for night prayer adopts the practice abhorred by Revd Pfatteicher (see above) of using the same structure as for morning and evening prayer, in particular having the Nunc Dimittis before the prayers.

Personally I find the consistency of structure helpful, and the conclusion provides a beautiful, restful and prayerful end to the office anyway:
quote:
In peace, we will lie down and sleep;
for you alone, Lord, make us dwell in safety.

Abide with us, Lord Jesus,
for the night is at hand and the day is now past.

As the night-watch looks for the morning,
so do we look for you, O Christ.

[BLESSING]


 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
I got the new Daily Office SSF not long ago and i like it. I'm fairly consistent at the moment in using the US '79 BCP office, but i've added bits and pieces of the SSF book from time to time. If i was planning to switch it certainly would be a contender.
 
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
I've done some searching on this thread, and I don't think I've seen anything about this, so here goes.

Does anyone know of online daily office/daily prayer resources which would suit a teenager? He's just got an iPod and is using it to look at the Bible, but I'm wondering if there is something which would enable him to access prayer resources. They don't need to be self-consciously youth oriented or 'cool', they do need to be accessible for someone who is exploring on his own and doesn't have lots of opportunities to pray with others?

The most likely things I've seen so far are what the {url=http://www.northumbriacommunity.org/pray-the-daily-office/morning-prayer]Northumbria Community[/url] offers (link is to morning prayer), or Sacred Space. In principle I'd like to use Anglican/CofE resources, but the CW::DP offering online seems a bit heavy for a youngster starting out.

I'd be glad for any thoughts.

[ 08. February 2011, 15:54: Message edited by: BroJames ]
 
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
Sorry about the typo in the Northumbria link. If a kindly host can edit I'd be very grateful.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Have you thought about Taizé? Their website has a page for Prayer and Song which could be useful. It has a link to mp3 and podcasts.
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
If one were to sing the CCP or CW:DP psalms daily, which chants might one use? I'm using these at the moment, from St Meinrad. Although intended for The Grail, they work well enough with CCP with a little intelligence. Any other suggestions, please?

Originally, the mode of the Antiphon would have set the mode of the psalm. How do we do this today? Currently, I rotate in sequence but this doesn't help with the aural association of text to music.

Any thoughts, learned ones?

Thanks
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
If one were to sing the CCP or CW:DP psalms daily, which chants might one use? I'm using these at the moment, from St Meinrad. Although intended for The Grail, they work well enough with CCP with a little intelligence. Any other suggestions, please?

Originally, the mode of the Antiphon would have set the mode of the psalm. How do we do this today? Currently, I rotate in sequence but this doesn't help with the aural association of text to music.

There are also Fr. Samuel Weber OSB's two-line psalm tones (PDF) for The Mundelein Psalter. The file has some good introductory material and then two pages laying out the psalm tones by mode.

Also have a look at The Julian Chantbook, in two big PDFs. I've printed them off and put them in a binder for chanting. I recently figured out that the tone selections match, for the most part, those in the old navy-blue Plainsong Psalter used with the 1928 USA BCP psalter. The Julian book uses the 1979 BCP psalms, whose text is similar to CW's but with many differences.

How to choose tones if you've got a psalter without them? I just look up the psalms in a psalter that has tones assigned and see what tone is used. The Julian Chantbook can work for that, too: say you want to chant Ps. 98 in the CW psalter using an appropriate Fr. Weber two-line tone from the first link above. Just look up Ps. 98 in the Julian Chantbook; you'll find it's paired with tone VI A. Fr. Weber gives two tones for mode VI: VI F and VI g. I'd go with VI g, as it's closest to VI A.

[ 19. February 2011, 20:30: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Recently picked up a copy of the 1967 Short Dominican Breviary (which contains Lauds, Vespers and Compline from the full breviary.) It uses the Grail Psalter, which I was not really familiar with before. I actually quite liked it. I was thinking of praying it through the 'Gesimas and Lent but decided to lend it to a friend who was a Dominican Tertiary instead. Has anyone else tried it?
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
This is always an interesting and a very long lived thread.

Although it has been said before and often by me, what wins every time, whatever the quality of the translation, whatever the ecclesiastical origin of the compilers, almost whatever the content, is that it should all, every bit of it, be in ONE BOOK.

The admirable SSF office and CW etc all require a bible and sometimes a lectionary. This is ridiculous when travelling. You just want to pull out the book from your pocket and say the office. I once mentioned this to Brother Tristram SSF and that erudite and holy man just stammered and stuttered.

That is why the Roman one wins for me. Or, and thank the Lord for it, downloads to the iPhone. Although the later can't be used in war zones, in my military career it was so useful to pull out an office book from one's uniform and just say the Office, often in a dusty compound, just to keep one sane. The one book option needs exploring further, i think.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
There is a one book option for CCP but, sadly, the material has always appeared to be quite sparse and not really favourable for continuous repetition. However, it was a very good idea.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
There is a one book option for CCP but, sadly, the material has always appeared to be quite sparse and not really favourable for continuous repetition. However, it was a very good idea.

This post from an Anglican Breviary blog has some good reflection on the benefits of a one-book Office. What it doesn't mention is that the BCP Office can be one-book if you get a volume that has the lessons in it. Expensive but one book.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
There is a one book option for CCP but, sadly, the material has always appeared to be quite sparse and not really favourable for continuous repetition. However, it was a very good idea.

This post from an Anglican Breviary blog has some good reflection on the benefits of a one-book Office. What it doesn't mention is that the BCP Office can be one-book if you get a volume that has the lessons in it. Expensive but one book.
Or you can get a regular BCP bound together with the Bible -- it works well for me, especially when i'm traveling. Admittedly the type in the Bible section is quite small indeed, but I have a couple of plastic bookmarks which are also magnifiers and they work well for me.

This is what i regularly use for the office. I hasten to add that when i am home i do frequently add elements from other office-related books in my library, e.g., the Roman Rite Liturgy of the Hours, or Celebrating Common Prayer, for alternate canticles, and sometimes Celebrating the Seasons to add a 2nd extrabiblical reading to Evening Prayer.
 
Posted by mimmi (# 15829) on :
 
I agree that one book helps.

I like the Roman Catholic 'Magnificat' book produced each month with two simple offices for everyday of the month in it.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mimmi:
I agree that one book helps.

I like the Roman Catholic 'Magnificat' book produced each month with two simple offices for everyday of the month in it.

I don't think i've heard about this one. Office geeks such as me want to know more.
 
Posted by mimmi (# 15829) on :
 
malik3000, here is the Magnificat website

I think it may be too short or simple for some people here, but I am finding it refreshingly simple in this stage of my spiritual journey.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Magnificat has a website with information here: Magnificat

It's a monthly publication that's sort of a combined hand missal/office book/daily devotional. It contains the Order of Mass and for every day of the month it has the readings and Missal propers plus a meditation for the day. These are sandwiched between simple orders of Morning and Evening Prayer based on the Liturgy of the Hours: hymn, 1 psalm, short reading, Gospel Canticle, intercessions, Our Father, and Marian Antiphon after the Evening Prayer. Each day ends with a short piece on the saint of the day. There's additional material too, like an order of Night Prayer, essays on a work of sacred art or a hymn of the month, etc.

It's really good and packs a lot of material in a pocket-sized magazine. The only thing is that it's a bit expensive but you can ask for a sample copy . They also publish other material, like a Lenten Companion. Oooh, now I see they're publishing resources on the new translation of the Missal (see here ).
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
What're the rules for reading the Office of the Dead on Sundays? I know I've seen them somewhere for use when All Souls Day falls on Sunday. I've looked through the GILOH but can't seem to find anything.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Or you can get a regular BCP bound together with the Bible -- it works well for me, especially when i'm traveling. Admittedly the type in the Bible section is quite small indeed, but I have a couple of plastic bookmarks which are also magnifiers and they work well for me.

This is what i regularly use for the office.

Yessiree, Bob!

A 1979 BCP bound together with the Bible is just what the doctor ordered.

This is about twenty-five dollars cheaper then when I got mine five or six years ago.

Notice that this has the RCL lectionary tables printed in it. Be sure to examine any you buy to make sure they're not foisting one with the 'old' lectionary in it—unless that's what you want.

As far as the eight-point type in the Bible: that why Granny gets her eyes checked every year and always has her good glasses with her, paying attention to her sainted mother's admonition to always bring the best light to bear on things.
 
Posted by lilyswinburne (# 12934) on :
 
I also want to put in a plug for Magnificat. I have tried ALL the daily office books (I have them stored in a box in my closet now), including the more esoteric ones from Lancelot Andrewes press, but have settled on Magnificat, augmented by a study Bible.

I find that, instead of rushing through a longer office, as I was doing with the various daily office books, Magnificat provides an opportunity to linger contemplatively over the readings, savoring them. I often look up the texts in my study Bible also, which provides more background and depth to what some call a short and uncomplicated service.

Lily
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
A 1979 BCP bound together with the Bible is just what the doctor ordered.

This is about twenty-five dollars cheaper then when I got mine five or six years ago.

Notice that this has the RCL lectionary tables printed in it. Be sure to examine any you buy to make sure they're not foisting one with the 'old' lectionary in it—unless that's what you want.

Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.

I have a feeling this will go the way of the Galley Prayer Book Office in terms of price! It sounds like a rare gem.
 
Posted by PataLeBon (# 5452) on :
 
Ok...I've taken back up reading the Daily Office and now it's Lent.

If I want to do the Great Litany (once in awhile), where would it go??

(Just in case, I'm using the 79 BCP, but if you know where it goes in another one, I'm adaptable!)
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
Ok...I've taken back up reading the Daily Office and now it's Lent.

If I want to do the Great Litany (once in awhile), where would it go??

(Just in case, I'm using the 79 BCP, but if you know where it goes in another one, I'm adaptable!)

That's an easy one, as it is specifically stated on page 148 of the BCP79:

quote:
To be said or sung, kneeling, standing, or in procession; before the Eucharist or after the Collects of Morning or Evening Prayer; or
separately; especially in Lent and on Rogation days.

The office would seem to proceed as normal, ending thus:

In the case of Lutheranism, the short answer is that we would place the Litany where the suffrages occur, ending with the Lord's Prayer, Let us bless the Lord, and a blessing.

[ 15. March 2011, 01:50: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.

malik3000, may I ask where you got this?

What does the Custodian's Certificate say on the back of the title page?

Does it have 9634AP stamped on the back?

I'm not interested it this volume's potential value; I want to have the utility of both eucharistic lectionaries bound together.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.

malik3000, may I ask where you got this?

What does the Custodian's Certificate say on the back of the title page?

Does it have 9634AP stamped on the back?

I'm not interested it this volume's potential value; I want to have the utility of both eucharistic lectionaries bound together.

The certificate on the back of the t-p says
"I certify that this edition of [the BCP] has been compared with a certified copy of the Standard Book, as the Canon directs, and that it conforms thereunto, noting that is has been amended by action of the 2006 General Convention to include the Revised Common Lectionary.

George Michael Howe
Custodian [etc.]
February 2007

It does indeed have 9634AP stamped on the back.

I bought mine at the Cathedral of St. Philip bookstore in Atlanta. It cost something over $110.00 (US of course) or so -- i can't remember exactly.

I already had known that it had the RCL -- i didn't discover that it also had the '79 lectionary until after i'd purchased it. It was an interesting and pleasant surprise.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
I also want to put in a plug for Magnificat. I have tried ALL the daily office books (I have them stored in a box in my closet now), including the more esoteric ones from Lancelot Andrewes press, but have settled on Magnificat, augmented by a study Bible.
Lily

I liked Magnificat but I've just chanced on Liturgical Press' 'Give us this Day'. It looks promising, promising a diverse range of catholic voices in the reflective pieces.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
As I mentioned on another thread, Catholic Book Publishing has printed the Daytime Prayers from the Liturgy of the Hours in a separate volume: link

In other news, I found a review of the recent African edition of the Liturgy of the Hours in English posted on a blog, complete with pictures: African LoTH review. It looks interesting.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
Mine has both: the RCL lectionary AND, after the Daily Office lectionary, the 1979 lectionary as a supplement.

malik3000, may I ask where you got this?

What does the Custodian's Certificate say on the back of the title page?

Does it have 9634AP stamped on the back?

I'm not interested it this volume's potential value; I want to have the utility of both eucharistic lectionaries bound together.

The certificate on the back of the t-p says
"I certify that this edition of [the BCP] has been compared with a certified copy of the Standard Book, as the Canon directs, and that it conforms thereunto, noting that is has been amended by action of the 2006 General Convention to include the Revised Common Lectionary.

George Michael Howe
Custodian [etc.]
February 2007

It does indeed have 9634AP stamped on the back.

I bought mine at the Cathedral of St. Philip bookstore in Atlanta. It cost something over $110.00 (US of course) or so -- i can't remember exactly.

I already had known that it had the RCL -- i didn't discover that it also had the '79 lectionary until after i'd purchased it. It was an interesting and pleasant surprise.

Thank you Malik3000 for that very helpful post. It has enabled to to purchase one.

An obsessive note for those who might be contemplating a similar purchase. Feed the string bcp nrsv into Amazon.com's search box and you will see three different choices.

One is from Church Publishing (Sept. 1, 2007) and I can tell you nothing about it.

One, from Oxford, I describe below (Oct. 17, 2007).

The third (Jan. 12, 2009), also from Oxford, is about one-third cheaper than the other Oxford edition.

I wonder if this Jan. 12, 2009 edition no longer contains the 1979 Lectionary. Can anyone enlighten me?

I just received my copy (Oct. 17, 2007) from a "Fulfilled by Amazon" store for $60.91. It is exactly what Malik3000 described and is exactly what the doctor prescribed: the 45 pages of the, so-called, 1979 Lectionary are bound in immediately after the Daily Office Lectionary.

The seven paragraphs printed immediately before "The Revised Common Lectionary" ("Concerning the Lectionary") are the same as those printed before the old 1979 Lectionary.

"The 1979 Lectionary" appears on the title page, 1003. Page 1005 contains a "To the Reader," which I have reproduced, below. In addition the same seven paragraphs, entitled "Concerning the Lectionary" are reprinted on the reverse of the title, page 2006.
quote:
To the Reader:

In June 2006, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church, USA, approved the use of a form of the Revised Common Lectionary (RCL), beginning on the first Sunday of Advent 2007, and becoming mandatory on the same Sunday in 2010.

In anticipation of this change, we have included the RCL, in its proper place within the Book of Common Prayer.

We realize, however, that many in the church will continue to use the previous lectionary, which we are calling the 1979 Lectionary, whether because their parish is continuing to use it in worship until the 2010 date, or out of fondness or familiarity.

To honor these wishes and the tradition of the Episcopal Church, we have included in the following pages the 1979 Lectionary. We hope you will find this appendix helpful.

OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS

Unhelpfully, the running footers for the 1979 Lectionary pages are indistinguishable from those for the RCL, inviting the unwary reader to mistake one for the other.

I hope the kindly hosts will forgive this near tangent away from strictly Daily Office business, but as this volume is noised on this thread chiefly for its utility to reading the daily office it seems to stray not too far afield.

That, and I really want to know what lectionaries the Oxford Jan. 12, 2009 edition contains.

[ 23. March 2011, 20:41: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
News on Baronius' bi-lingual "Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum" following the rubrics of 1961 (which is basically a republication of the three-volume Breviary published by Collegeville in 1963).

You can now sign up for a "Breviary Pre-Order Alert Form", the delivery is scheduled for August 2011 and the provisional price is $350 / £230. For more details, go here.
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
David James' sterling work on revising the Coverdale Psalter to bring it into greater conformity with the Septuagint text, but preserving the liturgical English as far as possible, is now finally in print from Jordanville as "A Psalter For Prayer."

I hope this link will work !

It includes the instructional material of praying the Psalter, the full kathismata prayers and how to pray the Psalter for departed souls, and looks as if it has been beautifully produced in hardback. If funds allow, I shall be ordering a copy very soon....
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
A much better link with greater content detail and reviews for "The Psalter For Prayer" can be found here.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
A much better link with greater content detail and reviews for "The Psalter For Prayer" can be found here.

The table of contents at this link has quite possibly sold me on the book. Looking at the finances now and deciding. [Overused]

Only "negative" I can see is the cover design. But I can put a cover over it! (I don't like the typeface...but that shouldn't get in the way of what looks like excellent contents.)
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Free 1962 Latin-English breviary app for iPhone, iPod touch, or iPad here. Since I do not own any of these devices, I cannot comment on the quality. Looks OK though, and it's free...
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Free 1962 Latin-English breviary app for iPhone, iPod touch, or iPad here. Since I do not own any of these devices, I cannot comment on the quality. Looks OK though, and it's free...

Thank you! I've downloaded it, and I'm investigating it to see whether it might serve as a nifty electronic Anglican Breviary if you read the English text and don't mind the differences in the wording. (I realize the AB aligns best with the 1911, I think, Roman Breviary, but it might come close to the 1962.)
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
I've used the iPhone/iPod app linked by IngoB above, and I've found it's a very handy tool if you want to pray the 1962 Breviarium Romanum in Latin, English, or Hungarian. It lines up all the texts you need, so you simply scroll, read, and pray.

It's an "app" version of this site.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
I'm home sick, today, slightly delirious, thinking that it would be a good idea to start reading the office in Latin.

No doubt this question from a beginner has been asked somewhere in the preceding 14 pages, but I'm too lightheaded to do the reading.

Can someone please tell me the best options? I prefer a full-form office. I'm no longer feeling All-was-fine-until-Rome-wrecked-things-in-the-'50s, so a current Roman Hours mono- or bi-lingual would be great, but one from the 1960s or '50s would be good too.

It has to be a book, as my phone is only a phone.

Many thanks in advance.
 
Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
Not a book, obviously, but there's Breviary.net: "The Divine Office of the Most Holy Roman Catholic Church." It's a "traditional" one, from what I know.

Pancho will be along shortly to tell us if it's any good. (I always thought it was, but what do I know about it, really? I'm totally outside the RCC loop.)

Well, I hope it helps, a little. Feel better, TSA....
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Breviary.net has everything that you need for each individual day but you have to navigate the pages yourself unless you pay for a subscription.

I find it very useful from an academic perspective but having to click through various menus to connect the different parts of the service is hardly prayerful. One could always compile it and print it out though.

Sorry to hear that you're not so well TSA...
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Thank you both for your kind thoughts.

I really do need a physical book, though. I wedge the Hours in vacant spots in the day, such as waiting for, or riding, the bus or train.

I just can't be tethered, wired or wirelessly. Nor do I want to spare the firing of a single synapse beyond what it takes to select a marker ribbon and open a book to the correct page.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I really do need a physical book, though. I wedge the Hours in vacant spots in the day, such as waiting for, or riding, the bus or train.

Would you like the 1979 BCP in Latin? Buy one here. You'll still need a Bible, though.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Can someone please tell me the best options? I prefer a full-form office. I'm no longer feeling All-was-fine-until-Rome-wrecked-things-in-the-'50s, so a current Roman Hours mono- or bi-lingual would be great, but one from the 1960s or '50s would be good too. It has to be a book, as my phone is only a phone.

If you have money, you can go for the Latin Breviarium Romanum from nova et vetera. If you have even more money and patience, you can wait for the bilingual Roman Breviary - Breviarium Romanum from Baronius. Both are 1960s version with ecclesiastic approval (new imprimatur and concordat cum originali, respectively). If you have more money still, then you can buy the current ordinary rite Latin Liturgia Horarum iuxta ritum romanum, editio typica altera (alternate source). You may be able to find a cheaper / used version somewhere, since this is a recent reprint of the 1985 edition, which is the currently valid one.

By the way, here's the Liturgia Horarum for free in PDB iSilo format and hence for pretty much any platform. However, you will have to buy the reader, which annoys me deeply even though it's not that expensive.

[ 01. June 2011, 15:05: Message edited by: IngoB ]
 
Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
(Ah. I should have said, "Pancho or Ingo will be along shortly....," I realize now....

I wonder if there's a .mobi or .epub version out there, now that I think of it? Those readers are not too expensive these days - and you can carry literally thousands of books around with you. I'll do a little snooping in that regard, in fact.)
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
There is also the Monastic Diurnal whose rubrics can easily be learned by using the helpful lessons on this blog (see right hand column called "Learning the Office").
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Ah. I should have said, "Pancho or Ingo will be along shortly....," I realize now...

Not at all, as far as the Divine Office is concerned I'm mostly a clueless newbie and definitely not a regular prayer (though I followed the "Magnificat" version for a couple of years fairly regularly). I just happen to watch this particular space, because of this weird belief I have that owning a book by intellectual osmosis transfers its content into my brain (or that's at least an excuse I have for buying and not reading so many of them).

quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I wonder if there's a .mobi or .epub version out there, now that I think of it? Those readers are not too expensive these days - and you can carry literally thousands of books around with you. I'll do a little snooping in that regard, in fact.

Actually, before posting I looked quite hard whether there is some way of getting those iSilo PDBs onto a Kindle. Because that would be such a good excuse for buying one, a holy sacrifice... The answer appears to be no. That's why I was so deeply annoyed about this stuff being in a proprietary format.
 
Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Actually, before posting I looked quite hard whether there is some way of getting those iSilo PDBs onto a Kindle. Because that would be such a good excuse for buying one, a holy sacrifice... The answer appears to be no. That's why I was so deeply annoyed about this stuff being in a proprietary format.

The thing is, there's such a thing as "Calibre" - some sort of open-source e-reader format converter - which may (or may not) translate between some of these things. I'm working my way through all this right now and haven't come to any definite conclusions yet.

I did find various e-reader versions of the Breviary - but this one's in English only, AFAICT.

Still snooping for the Latin....

[ 01. June 2011, 22:46: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
 
Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
Well, a bit of success! Here's The Complete Office of Holy Week According to the Roman Missal and Breviary, in Latin and English (1875)!

Quite poor formatting, though, and some really messed-up OCR conversions, at least on Kindle for PC. I'll see what it looks like on the regular Kindle and let you know.

Well, it's something, anyway - and just about free (unless there's some little charge for uploading it to Amazon, which there might be). It does look, unfortunately, that you get what you pay for - but that's only for today!

Lots of us are out here busy, busy, busy making e-files for the world, so check back in next week....

[ 01. June 2011, 22:55: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
That's why I was so deeply annoyed about this stuff being in a proprietary format.

This is not the place for righteous rants about proprietary intellectual property prisons and assholish copyright extensions to benefit fictive persons. So I won't.
quote:
IngoB sed:
If you have money...

Sigh. Well, I've got money, but I'm not sure I responsibly have money for one of those.

The essence of either the Anglican Daily Office or the Roman Hours is the daily and hours part. In another century, I would shuffle off from the vicarage to the church and pick up the book where I'd left it. And, it would be no worse for the wear. In this mobile, urban century, I'm hither and yon and so is the book. With the attendant wear and tear. Seems a pity to do that with a book or books which cost the best part of four hundred dollars.

IngoB, thank you for those links.
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
There is also the Monastic Diurnal whose rubrics can easily be learned by using the helpful lessons on this blog (see right hand column called "Learning the Office").

This may be what I can afford. Thanks, Extol.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
The thing is, there's such a thing as "Calibre" - some sort of open-source e-reader format converter - which may (or may not) translate between some of these things.

I tried Calibre on this before posting originally. It will read the PDB container, but neither display nor convert the iSilo content. The iSilo trial version (30 days free) will allow saving as plain text file. But that's about it, best I can tell.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
This may be what I can afford. Thanks, Extol.

Well, if the Benedictine version is for you, then you could go cutting edge and use the first fully Vatican II compliant Gregorian chant version made by Solesmes (took only 40 years to make): Antiphonale Monasticum I, II, and III. Total costs are below US$150, for some more info go to here, where you can see a sample page.

Or you can go really wild, and get three volumes of the current ordinary Liturgia Horarum in Latin and French with Gregorian chant from Solesmes. Not really "official" yet - but certainly something the Joneses won't be praying. Get it here, not cheap but cheaper than the official edition linked to above.

I'm not sure to what extent there's overlap of the chant in that edition with the Antiphonale Romanum II, also from Solesmes. But I think there's no complete set of that yet...
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
There's also Lauds and Vespers from the Newman House Press. Like It says, it only had lauds and vespers, so you miss out on matins, compline, and the little hours, but it's very convenient. I used it till I could afford the full Latin set. The English translation has much going for it,it's very beautiful.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
There is another edition of the Monastic Diurnal available from Amazon France which was edited by the monks of Le Barroux. It is in Latin and French, and provides a very helpful appendix in which the propers and office rubrics for post-1963 observances from the modern Benedictine kalendar are provided.
 
Posted by dkpintar (# 14802) on :
 
Silent Acolyte:

The African edition of the Liturgy of the Hours may be for you. It's not *that* expensive. Mine cost about £125.00 and that included shipping from Kenya.

It's a good book. And I'm moving to using it full time. I've tried them all--other English, Latin, French editions (Spanish was going to be next . . . ).

This is going to work best for me.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
This may be what I can afford. Thanks, Extol.

Well, if the Benedictine version is for you...
I has taken me a couple of days to screw up my courage to ask: what makes the Benedictine Hours Benedictine?
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I has taken me a couple of days to screw up my courage to ask: what makes the Benedictine Hours Benedictine?

Primarily, the psalter is laid out differently. This is the traditional monastic and this the traditional Roman layout. Note that the Monastic Diurnal does not contain Matins, which is the reason why it is so compact (that hour is by far the longest). Matins has become the Office of Readings now. In practice, not praying Matins means that you will miss most psalms (as you can see from the schema), which is perhaps more problematic for monks than for you (St Benedict required his community to pray through the psalter once a week, thus monks would need dispensation to miss Matins). Also, there are structural differences, with typically the Roman version being more elaborate I believe (e.g., no Nunc Dimittis in Compline for the Benedictine office). The Benedictine calendar and hence the proper of saints is also different from the Roman one (centered more on Benedictines, obviously). Caveat: all this from vague memories and some quick Google checks now, I repeat that I'm really no expert.

Have you consider starting with something simpler in saying a Latin office, e.g., with the The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary? Traditionally that would be more common for a lay person anyhow. If you want to use the Monastic Diurnal, check out the help file at Saints will arise, and here is a user forum.

Personally, I don't think that I'm cut out for the complexity and effort, at least without community support. Something like the Oratio Vespertina, full structure here, is more like it for me.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Upon looking around I did find a Roman Diurnal as well, at the same low price point as the Monastic Diurnal: here, review here. It is not a diglot though, just Latin, but it has plenty of extras. I should probably also mention the SSPX version of the traditional Roman breviary, see here. I see not reason to support this outfit though given that the nova et vetera one is available. Note also that the review link above contains a link to PDF instructions on how to pray the Roman Breviary.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
I (somewhat belatedly) second the suggestions made upthread about starting with the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then moving on to the Collegeville Hours of the Divine Office, in part because this is how I started praying the office...
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I (somewhat belatedly) second the suggestions made upthread about starting with the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then moving on to the Collegeville Hours of the Divine Office, in part because this is how I started praying the office...

I've never really prayed the Little Office of the BVM, but the pre-Vatican II one seems like a good office to learn to pray. I can see why it was used by monastic novices, as it laid everything out and didn't change much, other than seasonally. Then along came the current version with it's "You could do this, or you could do that, pick one or two, or skip it," and the whole "little office" character goes away.

I'm probably wrong for preferring that the Office of any given day (whether using a little office or the full regular one) be just one thing without a lot of choices to be made (or any, really). Tricky enough to find all the required pieces without having to make decisions among options as well.
 
Posted by minstermusic (# 16462) on :
 
I began reading all the posts in this thread with interest, but having got as far as page 4 decided to skip to the end. Forgive me therefore if I repeat anything which others have already said...

For a number of years as a high Anglican, then Roman Catholic, I used at least Morning and Evening Prayer from the Divine Office. Since my return to the Anglican fold and my rediscovery of the treasures of the BCP, particularly adorned by the glorious music of our English cathedrals, I have begun to use the Prayer Book. What has put me off, however, was the need for a copy of the lectionary or a diary with daily readings referenced, and a bible.

I have just found the answer! On my spartphone I have downloaded a free app, Pocket Common Worship Daily Prayer. From this you can select Morning/Evening/Night Prayer from CW or BCP. It automatically inserts the correct psalmody and readings according to the calendar, and you can schedule reminders - so your phone will remind you when it's time for evensong! I think it's also possible to import 'custom liturgies' from other sources, although it's a bit beyond me at present. I think that the trad. language Night Prayer is 1928.

I've only just started using this (well, yesterday), so can't say how good it is, and I'm not sure how I'll get on not using a nicely bound book with ribbon markers! I'd be glad to hear from anyone else who's used it.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by minstermusic:
I have just found the answer! On my spartphone I have downloaded a free app, Pocket Common Worship Daily Prayer. From this you can select Morning/Evening/Night Prayer from CW or BCP. It automatically inserts the correct psalmody and readings according to the calendar, and you can schedule reminders - so your phone will remind you when it's time for evensong! I think it's also possible to import 'custom liturgies' from other sources, although it's a bit beyond me at present. I think that the trad. language Night Prayer is 1928.

I've only just started using this (well, yesterday), so can't say how good it is, and I'm not sure how I'll get on not using a nicely bound book with ribbon markers! I'd be glad to hear from anyone else who's used it.

This sounds fantastic, but I can't find it in iTunes, and I gather it's an Android app?

Now back to finding the Breviarium Romanum app again for my iPod, which seems to have forgotten about that app due to a recent retransmogrification.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by minstermusic:
On my spartphone I have downloaded a free app, Pocket Common Worship Daily Prayer. From this you can select Morning/Evening/Night Prayer from CW or BCP.

you can also get this via the 'MyCofE' app. I don't know if it's the same software, but it's quite useful when stuck without a book. The snags are that if you want to say a slightly shorter office (only one reading for example) you have to scroll down quite a way, and you're stuck with their choice of celebration (saints' days overriding Sundays, or vice versa, for example). Also it decides for you when it is too late to say Evening Prayer and directs you to Compline instead.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I (somewhat belatedly) second the suggestions made upthread about starting with the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary and then moving on to the Collegeville Hours of the Divine Office, in part because this is how I started praying the office...

I've never really prayed the Little Office of the BVM, but the pre-Vatican II one seems like a good office to learn to pray. I can see why it was used by monastic novices, as it laid everything out and didn't change much, other than seasonally. Then along came the current version with it's "You could do this, or you could do that, pick one or two, or skip it," and the whole "little office" character goes away.

I'm probably wrong for preferring that the Office of any given day (whether using a little office or the full regular one) be just one thing without a lot of choices to be made (or any, really). Tricky enough to find all the required pieces without having to make decisions among options as well.

Yes, I had the pre-VII version in mind. It's a nice little office.
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
MM, to which pre-VatII Little Office were your referring ?

I'm looking out for one at the moment, so I might as well get a Pre-VII version and would be glad to know what you recommend.... [Angel]
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
MM, to which pre-VatII Little Office were your referring ?

I'm looking out for one at the moment, so I might as well get a Pre-VII version and would be glad to know what you recommend.... [Angel]

I have two* at the moment, this is the version I prefer, although this one is fine, and scores over the other for compactness, being roughly palm-sized.

*I may be disposing of one in due course.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
(Ah. I should have said, "Pancho or Ingo will be along shortly....," I realize now....

Thank you for thinking of me! To be honest, though, IngoB probably knows as much or more than I do about the older offices.

Apologies if I'm repeating any information.

Breviary.net is a slightly older form of the older office. That is, it's the office before a few changes made in the 50s and 60s but before the modern Liturgy of the Hours. There will be some differences with the 1960s Breviary/Divine Office of the Extraordinary Form such as in the calendar, the classification of feasts, possibly some rubric, etc. ; but otherwise it's the same. Also, I believe that site is run by sedevacantists, which would explain why it's the slightly older, older version of the Office.

As for singing the Divine Office in Latin, for the older office you can use the 1912 Antiphonale Romanum and the 1961 Liber Usualis, available as big pdf files under "Latin Chant Books" at this page.

For the current Liturgy of the Hours you can use the edition from the Community of St. Martin that IngoB pointed out above. I'm not sure how complete it is or how well it matches with the "Ordo Cantus Officii", the official "blueprint" for singing the modern Liturgy of the Hours.

Otherwise, there is the Liber Hymnarius which contains the Latin hymns for the LoTH, as well as the invitatory psalms and their antiphons in different modes, plus some responsories. There is then the Antiphonale Romanum II, containing Vespers for Sundays and Feasts for much of the year but apparently not for Ordinary Time.

Official books for the other Hours and for Ordinary Time are still missing. The gaps can be filled with the books from the Community of St. Martin. You can also try piecing together material according to the Ordo Cantus Officii, which lists where the chants can be found, but the material is spread between different books that can be difficult or expensive to find.

Ignatius Press recently published The Office of Compline in Latin and English set to chant. Modern Compline is only on a 1-week cycle. For the modern LoTH, this is probably the simplest, easiest way to pray or chant the Office in Latin.

[ 17. June 2011, 01:30: Message edited by: Pancho ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
The Cathedral of Notre-Dame de Paris is publishing a (French-language, of course) Liturgy of the Hours with music as done in the cathedral. Attractively designed. Six volumes in all, when complete. Only three are available now. Very interesting.

[Devil] Go ahead...buy 'em!

[Angel] No! You don't know French!

[Code repair.]

[ 20. June 2011, 14:21: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Lancelot Andrewes Press St Dunstan's Plainsong Psalter for sale here, which may be of interest to some, especially as the listing quotes a review written by an esteemed shipmate!
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
I forgot to mention the Dominican Antiphonal, which has chants for nearly all of the Liturgy of the Hours. Much of this is in Dominican chant, which is a variant of Gregorian chant.

I should also mention the Liber Cantualis has Compline for Sundays (in Latin), which in the Liturgy of the Hours can be said any day of the week.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I'm feeling rather pleased as I've just taken delivery of a complete set of "The Hours of the Divine Office in English and Latin" published by Liturgical Press at Collegeville in 1963. The books are in excellent condition and I paid just over £100 for the set, which I feel is a good bargain.

I'm not now sure if it is really worth paying over £200 for the Baronius Press Breviary when it (hopefully) appears in August, although the latter will have the Vulgate translation for the Latin psalms. This is generally preferred to that sanctioned by Pius XII which appeared in the original Collegeville breviary. As I am not a Latinist myself I will probably find the Pius XII translation perfectly adequate for personal recitation.

At the same time, I'm not too keen on the English translation of the office so I will not use it for recitation, although it is good to have it for reference when one is praying the office.

Does anyone else currently make use of the Collegeville breviary or plan to buy the Baronius Press edition when is is published?
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I'm feeling rather pleased as I've just taken delivery of a complete set of "The Hours of the Divine Office in English and Latin" published by Liturgical Press at Collegeville in 1963. The books are in excellent condition and I paid just over £100 for the set, which I feel is a good bargain.

I'm not now sure if it is really worth paying over £200 for the Baronius Press Breviary when it (hopefully) appears in August, although the latter will have the Vulgate translation for the Latin psalms. This is generally preferred to that sanctioned by Pius XII which appeared in the original Collegeville breviary. As I am not a Latinist myself I will probably find the Pius XII translation perfectly adequate for personal recitation.

At the same time, I'm not too keen on the English translation of the office so I will not use it for recitation, although it is good to have it for reference when one is praying the office.

Does anyone else currently make use of the Collegeville breviary or plan to buy the Baronius Press edition when is is published?

I use the Collegeville breviary and, like you, have no problem with the Latin, notwithstanding the popular Trad objections to the Pian version. I don't mind the English translation, although the hymns suffer through being derived from a very literal translation which draws out the meaning to the detriment of the form. I am less bothered by the collects, although I would prefer it if they weren't chopped up into smaller sentences. All in all I am very happy with the set and, although I wish it well, I won't be getting the Baronius Press version.
 
Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :
 
I just acquired a copy of "The Book of Common Prayer as proposed in 1928: Including the Lessons for Mattins and Evensong throughout the year". It's quite bulky, one reason for this being that numerous services are given both in 1662 and 1928 forms. Personally I'd rather just have the originals, but the other reason for its bulk more than makes up for this: It contains, as per the title, the complete text of all Biblical readings needed. No need to carry about a second book, which makes me very happy. [Smile]
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
Bran,

A friend in the UK sent me a copy of the "Daily Service Book" which is a 1662 BCP bound with the 1922 Lectionary readings. I'm really enjoying it!
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I have a dim suspicion from the type face and layout that the lessons section of that book may originally have been the lessons section of the English Office.

PD
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
New NRSV with Daily Prayer and Readings from CW.

Has anyone seen one? What's it like?

Thurible
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
New NRSV with Daily Prayer and Readings from CW.

Has anyone seen one? What's it like?

I haven't seen one, but I think these two reviews give a good look at the book's shortcomings. No apocrypha! [Disappointed]

And not really the Daily Office; just a smidge thereof.

[ 12. July 2011, 16:20: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
According to the Baronius Press website production of the forthcoming Latin/English breviary has been delayed further due to adverse weather conditions affecting the printer!!!

I'm glad I managed to get hold of my original Collegeville set!!
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I just acquired a copy of "The Book of Common Prayer as proposed in 1928: Including the Lessons for Mattins and Evensong throughout the year". It's quite bulky, one reason for this being that numerous services are given both in 1662 and 1928 forms.

Does anyone know if there is an easily available edition of the not-really-a-prayer-book-honest-guv 1928? It would be useful to have to complete the set even if it could never be used in church services, oh no, not us, we wouldn't dream of such a thing.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Do you know, I don't think I've ever seen one! I understand they turn up now and then in secondhand shops, but I've never chanced on such a thing myself and I doubt that they are printed from new these days.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Does anyone know if there is an easily available edition of the not-really-a-prayer-book-honest-guv 1928? It would be useful to have to complete the set even if it could never be used in church services, oh no, not us, we wouldn't dream of such a thing.

There!
 
Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :
 
I have two questions.

Firstly, if you say the 1662 BCP office privately, do you include the long exhortation before general confession? It seems strange to say it if you're not with strangers or in a church service. The prayer book revision attributed to Dearmer seems to encourage making confession into its own service, which seems strange given that Dearmer campaigned against the Frankenmass. The CW in traditional language seems to permit a cut-down version, but that too seems odd.

Secondly, I am planning a trip that involves packing lightly and no internet access for long periods of time and am looking for something like a BCP, bible and psalter in one volume.I don't particularly want something that's antique, decorative or valuable, just handy. Much to my surprise, Google is not my friend. The CW daily prayer book, for instance, would be no good because it's so big, and the online version wouldn't work either. Most BCPs/Bibles I have seen in Christian Bookshops are confirmation/baptism presentation copies, which would be no good, and as both the 1662 BCP and CW daily prayer are available for free online most people don't seem to have them for sale there either.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I don't think the 1662 was ever really intended as a purely private devotion... daily use amongst a family or class, perhaps. One would have to modify it with omission of things like that, I suppose.
 
Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Firstly, if you say the 1662 BCP office privately, do you include the long exhortation before general confession? It seems strange to say it if you're not with strangers or in a church service.

I do indeed always announce to my dearly beloved brethren that I pray and beseech them to accompany me with a pure heart and humble voice unto the throne of the heavenly grace, even though they are conspicuously absent. It's strange, yes. But surely the angels are listening. [Smile]
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
When 1662 was my daily office I would omit the Exhortation and the Absolution when I was alone. The former is allowed by the 1873 "Shortened Services Act" the other is common custom when reciting in private.

PD
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I had always assumed that the penitential introduction to the BCP office was customarily (if not strictly according to the rubric) omitted on weekdays whether or not a congregation was present. Certainly that is the way I have always experienced it, in theological college and parishes. I think many cathedrals omit it at Choral Evensong.
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
That's certainly the way it's done in the Colleges near me, Angloid. But on Sunday, whether in parish or College the penitential material is included. Sadly, I don't think any of the Cambridge Colleges use the exhortations.
 
Posted by catholicedinburgh (# 12668) on :
 
**BUMP**

If anyone is interested, I have a copy of Monastic Diurnal Noted for sale on ebay at the moment. Search for reference [advertising removed] and you'll see it.

Thanks

[ 27. August 2011, 22:20: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I had always assumed that the penitential introduction to the BCP office was customarily (if not strictly according to the rubric) omitted on weekdays whether or not a congregation was present. Certainly that is the way I have always experienced it, in theological college and parishes. I think many cathedrals omit it at Choral Evensong.

The Shortened Services Act of the early 1870s (either '71 or '73) allowed some omissions from the daily Office, and, IIRC, the exhortation was one of them. The others, which never really caught on, were the leaving out all but one psalm, one lesson, one canticle, and the second Lord's Prayer. I have actually done the BCP office ths way when I was a student and trying to fit it into Daily Prayer slot at college, and it works OK. OTOH, I prefer the full office sung.

The 1928 Its-Not-Really-A-BCP allowed the omission of the whole of the penitential introduction. As most bishops decided to tolerate the 1928 PBCP unofficially, many of its provisions found their way into common use. That expains the omission of the penitential intro. at most cathedral Evensongs. It also explains the production of the old green 'Shorter BCP' but that maye a different thread.

PD

[ 26. August 2011, 15:34: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by jordan32404 (# 15833) on :
 
In private use, I just skip the Exhortation, it really doesn't make much sense to exhort myself to confess with myself.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
In private use, I just skip the Exhortation, it really doesn't make much sense to exhort myself to confess with myself.

We skip the penitential bits in our parish Daily Office. It's rubrical because we're in the 1979 BCP (USA). There's always a confession and absolution at Mass, which often follows the Office.
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by jordan32404:
In private use, I just skip the Exhortation, it really doesn't make much sense to exhort myself to confess with myself.

Well, that depends. When I used the old form for the daily office, (the 1662) I would read the whole office by the book. One or more sentences, then the exortation and all the way through.

Once when I dropped the prayer book during the exhortation, I was suprised to find my mouth still uttering the words. Words and phrases still come back after decades. There are beautiful ideas of worship in there, and constant repetition will surely pound it into your cranium and then perhaps into your soul so you can keep it.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
It helps that Cranmer's prose has a knack for pounding itself into the old noggin. However, you have to be able to read it without butchering it. My last deacon - who has now moved on [Yipee] to what he believes to be "better things" - butchered BCP on a regular basis and would not take advice from the old hands. The results were painful. I am actually enjoying not having a curate at the moment.

PD

[ 27. August 2011, 15:58: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by catholicedinburgh:
**BUMP**

If anyone is interested, I have a copy of Monastic Diurnal Noted for sale on ebay at the moment. Search for reference [advertising removed] and you'll see it.

Thanks

Catholicedinburgh, advertising items for sale is not allowed under the Ship's Commandment #9. Accordingly, I've removed the reference from your post. You may, however, include a link in your signature.

Mamacita, Eccles Host
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
Are other users of the LOH enjoying the annual Augustine-a-thon in the office of readings?
 
Posted by Aelred of Riveaux (# 12833) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I do indeed always announce to my dearly beloved brethren that I pray and beseech them to accompany me with a pure heart and humble voice unto the throne of the heavenly grace, even though they are conspicuously absent. It's strange, yes. But surely the angels are listening. [Smile]

Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
That's certainly the way it's done in the Colleges near me, Angloid. But on Sunday, whether in parish or College the penitential material is included. Sadly, I don't think any of the Cambridge Colleges use the exhortations.
Jesus College does, or at least used to under the previous Chaplain, on Saturday and Sunday evenings at evensong. I don't know if anything has changed in the last year since the new Chaplain has come.
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
Peterhouse always began Sunday evensong with sentence and exhortation in my day. Things have changed under the New Regime though, so I don't know if that still pertains.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:

Secondly, I am planning a trip that involves packing lightly and no internet access for long periods of time and am looking for something like a BCP, bible and psalter in one volume.

Celebrating Common Prayer pocket edition is quite good, I think.

This is a bit late - I hope your trip went well if you were away.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Discussion of a travel-friendly Office book makes me think of my ideal Office book: complete psalter in a month or four weeks; one volume containing all material necessary to pray the complete Office (whether MP and EP or a monastic round or sevenfold Office); large print; handy size for holding or packing for travel; all necessary rubrics and handy charts and tables to find one's places; eight ribbon markers; supple soft leather; practically indestructible; creamy ivory-colored substantial paper. Oh, and pointing for chant throughout. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
There are TONS of apps for praying the office in practically every tradition. This makes for very portable breviaries.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Discussion of a travel-friendly Office book makes me think of my ideal Office book: complete psalter in a month or four weeks; one volume containing all material necessary to pray the complete Office (whether MP and EP or a monastic round or sevenfold Office); large print; handy size for holding or packing for travel; all necessary rubrics and handy charts and tables to find one's places; eight ribbon markers; supple soft leather; practically indestructible; creamy ivory-colored substantial paper. Oh, and pointing for chant throughout. [Big Grin]

Bound in "British post-box red" morocco! And one of the ribbons in Sarum blue!
 
Posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:

Secondly, I am planning a trip that involves packing lightly and no internet access for long periods of time and am looking for something like a BCP, bible and psalter in one volume.

Celebrating Common Prayer pocket edition is quite good, I think.
CCP travel edition is a rather idiosyncratic version of the office, though. I would have thought that someone had produced a BCP plus Bible in one volume. Surely.

Alternatively, the Roman Rite Morning and Evening Prayer fits the 'all in one book' requirement.

[ 02. October 2011, 11:02: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw Dwarf ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
CCP travel edition is a rather idiosyncratic version of the office, though. I would have thought that someone had produced a BCP plus Bible in one volume. Surely.

There's always the USA one, which is very well done.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
But it weighs nearly nearly 1 kg and is 6 cm thick and "brick" is the first word to spring to mind when considering it.
BTW Oblatus what is that "brown leather binding" actually like?
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Today I came across The Shorter Prayer Book (a first edition too, with forward by Geoffrey Cantuar) for the first time and was mildly shocked. Anything anyone can tell me about its use?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
But it weighs nearly nearly 1 kg and is 6 cm thick and "brick" is the first word to spring to mind when considering it.
BTW Oblatus what is that "brown leather binding" actually like?

I think any combo containing the whole Bible will be at least that heavy.

My copy is from the original edition published long ago. Then there was a hiatus of many years until this new range of editions of various colors and types of material was released. Mine from OUP has a very soft black leather. I find it a handy size for travel and for holding, although it's not thin enough for my usual messenger bag. On a trip, I often wrap it in grocery-bag brown paper (to prevent stuff invading the pages) and place it in my suitcase.

So I haven't handled any of the newer "small brick" BCP/NRSV combos. Just the well-worn one I have from 1990.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Unless we can convince Cambridge UP to put the whole thing out in transetto (flip-back)...like the new KJV edition...
It would still be thick as a brick of course - but a tiny little brick.
And ribbons would be a problem...I have tried with my transetto - looks really silly as well as being on completely the wrong angle so you end up either crossing your hands or re-flipping the book to "upright" to get to the next ribbon...
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
And ribbons would be a problem...I have tried with my transetto - looks really silly as well as being on completely the wrong angle so you end up either crossing your hands or re-flipping the book to "upright" to get to the next ribbon...

Isn't that why God created Post-Its™?
 
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus
large print; handy size for holding or packing for travel;

I think that has to be a choice. It's either largish print, a spacious layout and large book, like CW Daily Prayer + a separate Bible, or small print, compressed layout, thin crinkly paper that's difficult to use and a book that can go in luggage. It's not possible to have both.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Today I came across The Shorter Prayer Book (a first edition too, with forward by Geoffrey Cantuar) for the first time and was mildly shocked. Anything anyone can tell me about its use?

They use it for the Office at Margaret Street.

It was the CofE's response to having the 1928 Prayerbook rejected, as far as I remember. (Which seems to be confirmed by this.)

Thurible
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Today I came across The Shorter Prayer Book (a first edition too, with forward by Geoffrey Cantuar) for the first time and was mildly shocked. Anything anyone can tell me about its use?

They use it for the Office at Margaret Street.

It was the CofE's response to having the 1928 Prayerbook rejected, as far as I remember. (Which seems to be confirmed by this.)

Thurible

Yes, although it is interesting to recall that in the immediate aftermath, the CofE's response to the rejection of the 1928 book appears to have been to use it anyway! See here, about halfway down. I do occasionally see copies of the Shorter PB (in fact I think I may have passed one on to a shipmate) but I wasn't clear that they had much use.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
quote:
]
Isn't that why God created Post-Its™? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Oblatus...pass me the smelling salts!
I feel as if I'm about to faint dead away!
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Galilit, when you've been sufficiently revived [Biased] , you might pay a visit to our UBB Practice Thread, where you can experiment with the various formatting functions available for your posts.

Mamacita, Eccles Host
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Oblatus...pass me the smelling salts!
I feel as if I'm about to faint dead away!

I know: Post-Its instead of ribbon markers? Where's the fun in that? The arrival of a new breviary should be closely followed by the careful ironing of its ribbon markers. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I do occasionally see copies of the Shorter PB (in fact I think I may have passed one on to a shipmate) but I wasn't clear that they had much use.

My experience with it suggests that there were rural parishes who took up the Shorter PB and have never ceased to use it.

[ 04. October 2011, 06:05: Message edited by: Amos ]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
Anymore, I prefer new breviaries arrive sans ribbons. Instead, I use this.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Anymore, I prefer new breviaries arrive sans ribbons. Instead, I use this.

Yes, that's one of the best of the installable sets. I have several of the LBW version, purchased at the Lutheran Center's Augsburg-Fortress shop, of blessed memory. [Tear]
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
My friend Meg of the Prairies sewed us a set for our (post-box red) Book(s) of Common Prayer, 1662.
You can buy ribbon 4mm wide (even 2mm!)by the metre/yard from sewing notions type shops.
That way we had the same BCP and the same ribbons even if we lived on different sides of the world. Then she sewed another set in the same colours for my daughter's Siddur (the Jewish "Office Book"). It was such a sweet prezzie for her giyyur (conversion to Judaism).
There are links here somewhere from ages ago on how to make them too - with card and glue. Really easy - 15 min work and a lot of that is watching the glue dry! And you get the perfect colours and shades you want that way.
 
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I do occasionally see copies of the Shorter PB (in fact I think I may have passed one on to a shipmate) but I wasn't clear that they had much use.

My experience with it suggests that there were rural parishes who took up the Shorter PB and have never ceased to use it.
I've spotted the Shorter PB in the religion section of our local Waterstones.
 
Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
If one wanted to read the proposed two-year cycle of lessons for the Office of Readings in the Liturgy of the Hours, were official responsories ever promulgated for this cycle, and if so, are they available anywhere in English?
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
If one wanted to read the proposed two-year cycle of lessons for the Office of Readings in the Liturgy of the Hours, were official responsories ever promulgated for this cycle, and if so, are they available anywhere in English?

There must be official responsories for it, because the Spanish Liturgy of the Hours is published with the 2 year cycle (for the biblical readings) and it comes with responsories for it. I'm not aware of them being available in English, though.

In other news,the other day was the feast of St. Teresa of Avila and I noticed the Spanish LotHs uses some of her poems for the office hymns on that day.
 
Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Today the memorial for Blessed John Paul II is observed for the first time. The Mass and Office for today can be taken from the Common of Pastors: For a Pope. For the interested or curious the reading for today's Office of Readings can be found here.

Some might find this book of his writings interesting: Psalms and Canticles: Meditations and Catechis on the Psalms and Canticles of Morning Prayer
 
Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :
 
About the 1662 BCP, but responses from other traditions would also be useful -

When a day doesn't have a set collect, is the collect of the last day with a collect used, or specifically the last sunday?

What happens if a day is appointed both feast and fast? Does one or the other have to be "moved"?

Does anyone still use the form of prayer for the anniversary of the accession of the sovereign?
 
Posted by Ellis Bell (# 16348) on :
 
I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this Office Site? St. Bede's Breviary

It looks rather well done, though not sure about some of the "styles" on offer. But as far a ease of use goes, it is a snap.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ellis Bell:
I was wondering if anyone had any experience with this Office Site? St. Bede's Breviary

It looks rather well done, though not sure about some of the "styles" on offer. But as far a ease of use goes, it is a snap.

I have lots of experience with it, and you're right. It's a snap, and it's very well done. And it's constantly being refined and improved by its passionate and knowledgeable owner. Highly recommended!
 
Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :
 
I agree, the SBB is nice! But I've had a lot of frustration trying to get it to save my preferences, for some reason. Also there doesn't seem to be a way to get both the Great Litany and a hymn on Sundays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.
 
Posted by Ellis Bell (# 16348) on :
 
I do wish SBB was an App for my iPad, but I download the pages and mark them, so I'm able to use them on my commute when I don't have access to wireless.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
I don't even like to set preferences on the SBB. Part of the fun is picking and choosing each time whether I want Bare Bones, By-the-Book, or delightfully AC.

I would love to see it offer the Daily Eucharistic Lectionary readings as an option, too, as I prefer them to the Daily Office readings. (Hint, hint, ehem...) Still, I admit my practice is not normal.
 
Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :
 
I've used SBB many time. I like it because it's easy to use. Like Martin, I enjoy deciding on the options each time I use it.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
About the 1662 BCP, but responses from other traditions would also be useful -

When a day doesn't have a set collect, is the collect of the last day with a collect used, or specifically the last sunday?

What happens if a day is appointed both feast and fast? Does one or the other have to be "moved"?

Does anyone still use the form of prayer for the anniversary of the accession of the sovereign?

As a Catholic user of the old breviary, the rule I follow is to use the Collect of the preceding Sunday, unless other instruction is given. The Roman Breviary also has quite detailed rules about the occurrence and concurrence of offices, which I follow. There are a wide variety of options depending upon the rank of the occurring/concurring feast or fast, of which translating the lesser feast/fast to the next free day is one, but omission is also possible, as is commemoration (when the proper anthem, versicle & response and collect of the lesser is prayed at Lauds immediately after the collect of the greater.
 
Posted by catholicedinburgh (# 12668) on :
 
Quick question - hopefully in the right place
I have the Lancelot Andrewes edition of the Monastic Diurnal and I would like to get it rebound in nice soft leather. I live in Edinburgh - does anyone have any recommendations of who could do this for me please? Is it worth doing?

Thanks
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
I agree, the SBB is nice! But I've had a lot of frustration trying to get it to save my preferences, for some reason. Also there doesn't seem to be a way to get both the Great Litany and a hymn on Sundays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

Hi Bran,

If you're trying to set the breviary for "Fixed prayers" it turns out there was a gitch that screwed up the rest of the cookie. It's fixed now.

With the placement of the Office Hymn in the '79 Book if you're going strictly according to the rules, then it does turn out to be an either/or.

Ellis Bell,

There'll be some news on that shortly!
 
Posted by RCD (# 11440) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
If one wanted to read the proposed two-year cycle of lessons for the Office of Readings in the Liturgy of the Hours, were official responsories ever promulgated for this cycle, and if so, are they available anywhere in English?

While the scripture schema has been published in various journals such as Notitiae (not sure whether the two year cycle at the back of some editions of Christian Prayer matches or not.....will have to check that), but the responsories have not seen the light of day.

Re: the Spanish two-year cycle -- IIRC, they did their own responsories for that. The Italians have one which I think might have been based more closely on the draft responsories - it's called L'Ora dell'Ascolto.

I quite like the thematic lectionery developed by Pluscarden (here), since I'm not one for the continuous slogging through Augustine, but unfortunately, no responsories yet.
 
Posted by Right-Believing Queen (# 16832) on :
 
Does anyone here say the Daily Office in Latin using the Office Hymns as the existed in the first part of the 17th century?

I ask this because Fr John Hunwicke, whom many will doubtless know for eminently sensible liturgical advice, seems to to regard this as the best practice , although it's not clear why.

I must admit that I myself often find the demands of the Divinum Officium in its full form to be incompatible with the life of a layman, and thus fall back on the 1662 with certain minor additions from the Roman Breviary as it existed in the immediate aftermath of the Council of Trent, although I do always feel that this combination is a bit shamefully low church.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
I do. I use the Liturgia Horarum though (The Latin edition of the liturgy of the hours) with some additions and modifications.

For the most part, the hymns in it are the ancient restored hymns. Sometimes there are new hymns (Which are excellent) or the hymns have been edited- if they've received any editing, I usually use the older wording. (For example, in the hymn for advent vespers, the stanza "Te deprecamur Hagie" was changed to "De sancte fide quasumus".)

The problem with the hymns of Urban is that the office hymns used their own version of a biblical, Christianised Latin. Though it didn't always conform to classical rules of poetry, it was beautiful and had an air of sacrality- it was'nt the same Latin that was being used elsewhere, it was it's own liturgical language.

Urban, who was a master of classical poetry could not stand the hymns because of the many grammatical and language 'errors' he saw, so he set up a group of Jesuit scholars to fix them. In some cases, this meant entirely re-writing hymns written by saints and doctors of the church.

I find the liturgy of the hours to be a good fit- enough tradition to keep me satisfied, but shorter. The shorter hours mean that I can say more of them. (There's no way I could ever say matins and lauds from the older breviary daily- I don't have time for that many psalms and readings.)
 
Posted by Right-Believing Queen (# 16832) on :
 
Thank you for your reply. That makes sense.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I wonder if the long awaited Baronius Press Roman Breviary will finally appear in the New Year.

Has anyone any up-to-date information on this publication? I understood that publication had been delayed due to bad weather in the country where the printer is located.
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Transferred from another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces:
I am an Anglican in London. I say my office using the modern RC form. My RC General Calendar (the Latin version published by Libreria Editrice Vaticana) - but in common with the Diocese of Westminster Ordo published online by their Liturgy Office - marks today as a feria with optional memoria of the Holy Name of Our Lord.

I normally use the US text of the Liturgy of the Hours (1975). I looked for the propers for today's memoria and could fine none. I could likewise find nothing in the corresponding Latin volume of Liturgia Horarum (2000). Looking in my one-volume Daily Prayer from the UK Divine Office (1974), again I could find nothing.

Looking in my Collins Daily Missals (reprints of 2002 and 2004), I could likewise find nothing. There is something in wikipedia (I think) about this memoria having been "restored" to the missal in 2002.

Does anyone know where the relevant propers are and why there are not in my breviaries and missals?

Best wishes,

SHSV

quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
It is my understanding that an English translation of the propers has not yet been translated.


 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
Such is my understanding as well. The Optional Memorial of the Most Holy Name of Jesus does appear in the "new" Roman Missal in English.

Unfortunately, if I recall correctly, the last official Supplement to the Liturgy of the Hours was published in the 1990s.

One would think that some liturgy office in the US could keep up with these changes, but you know "they" are very, very particular about translations nowadays!

For what it's worth, here are the new Mass prayers. (I'm not sure how well that link will work for you. Scroll down to Page 802.) I'm sure you could use the normal office readings for today, along with the collect for the memorial.

If the link didn't work, let me know. I can explain how to find it if need be.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Such is my understanding as well. The Optional Memorial of the Most Holy Name of Jesus does appear in the "new" Roman Missal in English.

Unfortunately, if I recall correctly, the last official Supplement to the Liturgy of the Hours was published in the 1990s.

One would think that some liturgy office in the US could keep up with these changes, but you know "they" are very, very particular about translations nowadays!

For what it's worth, here are the new Mass prayers. (I'm not sure how well that link will work for you. Scroll down to Page 802.) I'm sure you could use the normal office readings for today, along with the collect for the memorial.

I looked on Universalis, and today it lets you choose the 3rd of January or the Holy Name. The only difference I could detect in my short visit was the collect. Perhaps as an optional memorial, the Holy Name collect is all that's available, so you just use that collect with everything else coming from the 3 January? I could be wrong; hence my question mark.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I looked on Universalis, and today it lets you choose the 3rd of January or the Holy Name. The only difference I could detect in my short visit was the collect. Perhaps as an optional memorial, the Holy Name collect is all that's available, so you just use that collect with everything else coming from the 3 January? I could be wrong; hence my question mark.

I can't recall exactly what it contains off the top of my head, but the old Supplement did have something for the Optional Memorial too. [Thinking out loud...Is it the extra non-scriptural reading and the collect? I can't recall...]

The name "Oblatus" jogs my mind a bit, and causes me to wonder whether we are barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps there is a religious order whose own proprietary ordo contains an approved translation of the material for the Holy Name. The orders are very good at keeping up with such things, IMHO, and they do often obtain permission for their own additions.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Such is my understanding as well. The Optional Memorial of the Most Holy Name of Jesus does appear in the "new" Roman Missal in English.

Unfortunately, if I recall correctly, the last official Supplement to the Liturgy of the Hours was published in the 1990s.

One would think that some liturgy office in the US could keep up with these changes, but you know "they" are very, very particular about translations nowadays!

For what it's worth, here are the new Mass prayers. (I'm not sure how well that link will work for you. Scroll down to Page 802.) I'm sure you could use the normal office readings for today, along with the collect for the memorial.

I looked on Universalis, and today it lets you choose the 3rd of January or the Holy Name. The only difference I could detect in my short visit was the collect. Perhaps as an optional memorial, the Holy Name collect is all that's available, so you just use that collect with everything else coming from the 3 January? I could be wrong; hence my question mark.
There was more issued in 2003, which included a second reading at matins and benedictus/magnificat antiphons.You can see them Here. Further,in 2006, the congregation for divine worship added the hymns Iesu Dulcis Memoria,an invitatory and versicle, proper readings and short resposories at lauds and vespers, and optional antiphons for psalms if the feast was celebrated with great solemnity. You can see those Here (large PDF warning) on page 799. There was a Latin supplement issued in 2006 that contained those, but as far as I know, it's out of print and I don't know if it's been translated into any languages.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
Ah- wrong link. Let me try This.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
The only difference I could detect in my short visit was the collect. Perhaps as an optional memorial, the Holy Name collect is all that's available, so you just use that collect with everything else coming from the 3 January?

That's what my ordo says to do. Most optional memorials just have a collect and a second reading for the OOR in the Hours.
 
Posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces (# 11086) on :
 
Thank you to everyone. This is all very helpful, especially the links.

I have been saying the office for quite a while now; I simply cannot account for why I haven't noticed this lack of propers in my books before this year.

I think what threw me was that the Holy Name seems to be a well-established, old celebration. There are certainly churches (and church schools) dedicated to it here in England. I would have expected it to be in all the printed books. Does anyone know what the history is? Did it go out at some point and then come back in?

(I did, incidentally, find it in my Lancelot Andrews Press reprint of the Monastic Diurnal. I have not yet dug out my older Latin breviary. I have an odd volume of a Desclee edition from the late C19. I'll have to see if there is anything in there.)

Thanks again to everyone who has replied, and to Mamacita for moving my OP to the correct place.
 
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces:
Did it go out at some point and then come back in?

Yes, that is why you had difficulty. The feast, unforunately, fell victim to the revised kalendar/missal of 1970 and did not appear in that missal. It was restored as an optional memorial in the 2002 edition.
 
Posted by Sub Hoc Signo Vinces (# 11086) on :
 
Aha! That explains it. Thanks very much.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
The only difference I could detect in my short visit was the collect. Perhaps as an optional memorial, the Holy Name collect is all that's available, so you just use that collect with everything else coming from the 3 January?

That's what my ordo says to do. Most optional memorials just have a collect and a second reading for the OOR in the Hours.
I've just always been confused why this memorial, unlike others, was originally made without any reading and responsory, hymns or intercessions. Most memorials take these from the common, but obviously, there's no common for feasts of the lord, so one would figure these would be provided but nothing was. I can't think of another feast where this occurs.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
I find that the office gets much too samey and short shrift is given to the season if the commons are gone to for too many memorials. I'll only use commons for a memorial-saint if they're especially important to me or my locale (unless otherwise directed). I imagine the lack of provision of such things for this one is based on an assumption that most people would want to use the as much Christmas seasonal material as possible.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
Baronius Press' edition of the English-Latin "Extraordinary Form" Roman Breviary finally appears to have left the press: link.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
A reprint of Les Heures Gregoriennes by the Community of St Martin in France is also due shortly.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
A reprint of Les Heures Gregoriennes by the Community of St Martin in France is also due shortly.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Baronius Press' edition of the English-Latin "Extraordinary Form" Roman Breviary finally appears to have left the press: link.

And I can now pre-order for £235.95 including S&H. I have 21 days to decide whether it's worth that much money to me...
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
The Baronius Press breviary looks like a very handsome publication but I'm not sure if I will be buying a set in the immediate future as I already have the original Collegeville edition in excellent condition and for which I paid less than half the price of the new Baronius Press edition!!
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
I'm still praying for my dream book: An affordable set of the liturgia horarum in double column. The Midwest Theological Forum set is far too bulky and outrageously expensive.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
The Baronius Press breviary looks like a very handsome publication but I'm not sure if I will be buying a set in the immediate future as I already have the original Collegeville edition in excellent condition and for which I paid less than half the price of the new Baronius Press edition!!

Likewise, although my original set is in used but serviceable condition, much like its owner. What I would really like now is an inexpensive monastic diurnal, or English-language Pius X breviary. Some hopes!
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Baronius Press' edition of the English-Latin "Extraordinary Form" Roman Breviary finally appears to have left the press: link.

Genuine curiosity. Is that the pre-1970 version with post-1970 bits or what?
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Baronius Press' edition of the English-Latin "Extraordinary Form" Roman Breviary finally appears to have left the press: link.

Genuine curiosity. Is that the pre-1970 version with post-1970 bits or what?
In essence it is the breviary as reformed in 1962 with the Pius XII Holy Week, as originally published by the Liturgical Press in 1963, but with the "New"/Cardinal Bea psalter of the 1963 edition replaced by the Vulgate psalter. I understand that the latter was for the benefit of those traditionalist Catholics who did not care for the Pian psalter. I don't know what else will have changed but I assume very little.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Even a liturgical anorak like me is confused.

But thank you.

I still use my 1970 breviary on holiday. Is it now completely out of dats?
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Having now perused the link, it is interesting to see what has changed compared to the 1963 version; apart from the different Latin psalter (which I should have called the "Gallican", although it is from the Vulgate), I also note that the English parallel version has been revised to bring it into line with the Latin version. From the text it appears that the CCD translation of the scriptures may have been tweaked, although it is not clear whether this is the same tweaking as was done in the '63 edition, or something more. Unfortunately they have kept Fr Connelly's English translations of the hymns, which whilst no doubt frightfully accurate, are not versified and so do not (to me) lend themselves to actual recitation. The extracts from the Rituale are new, whilst the overall presentation is both substantially better and much more like traditional breviaries than the Collegeville version.

ETA: you're very welcome!

I don't think the 1970 LoTH is completely out of date, although I think that there is a more recent Latin version; however, as I don't use it (and indeed am selling on the one volume I do own) I am probably not the most reliable source of information on that!

[ 03. March 2012, 20:34: Message edited by: Manipled Mutineer ]
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
The revised Latin Psalter was a bit of a shocker. OK if it was the only one you ever encountered but if you were used to the Vetus it was an "Arrghh Moment."

The 1960 Breviary was a bit of a hatchet job with most of the lessons from the Early Fathers being removed. It would be laughable, if it were not so sad, to read John XXIII expressing the hope that the clergy would become more familiar with the Fathers when the "Hannibal the Cannibal's" Liturgical Goon Squad had just removed half the Patristic lessons from the Breviary.

IMHO the old, Pius X Breviary, recited according to Pius XII's 1955 simplification of the rubrics is more balanced than the 1960 revision. Much as it pains me to admit it, the Liturgy of the Hours actually represents a major improvement over the 1960 Breviary as it restores the Father's as a major element in the daily diet of prayer.

Whilst I am thinking about it, the 1970 Holy Week is less of a mess than the 1951/5 version, or at least it would be were it not for the inevitable habit of the newer rites to have suggestions not Rubrics.

PD
(who is feeling grumpy)

[ 03. March 2012, 22:48: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
If one is still using the 1970 breviary, you're missing out on few good things that were restored and some good new things! (Like the feasts of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary, the memorial of Our Lady of Sorrows on Friday of the fifth week of lent, and the readings from Lamentations during the triddum.)

Also, permission is given to use the texts of the antiphons contained in the Ordo Cantus Officii in place of the ones given in the breviary, so some feasts which got entirely new texts in 1970 have their older offices restored. (eg, the feast of the Assumption, the common of Holy Men, Corpus Christi.) There are also some sight rubrical modifications with the psalms.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
Incidentally, for something entirely new in Daily Office thrills, someone really ought to snap up this copy of Fr Trenholme SSJE's " "Hours of Prayer" compiled from the Sarum Breviary & other rites, especially at the Buy it Now price of £15 plus shipping. (And the seller has other good pieces too, offering the chance of some combined psotage discounts...)
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
Incidentally, for something entirely new in Daily Office thrills, someone really ought to snap up this copy of Fr Trenholme SSJE's " "Hours of Prayer" compiled from the Sarum Breviary & other rites, especially at the Buy it Now price of £15 plus shipping. (And the seller has other good pieces too, offering the chance of some combined psotage discounts...)

Thank you for letting us know! I'm tempted, of course, but mainly for the experience of getting a new (even though old) breviary, as I've already got one of the 1928 3rd edition, revised. [Cool]
 
Posted by FatherRobLyons (# 14622) on :
 
For those looking for readings from the Church Fathers, a new resource is out from Concordia Publishing House (LCMS) that is keyed to the Church year:

[URL=http://www.cph.org/p-18961-a-year-with-the-church-fathers-meditations-for-each-day-of-the-church-year.aspx?SearchTerm=a year with]A Year with the Church Fathers[/URL]

It provides the Daily Lectionary of the current LCMS worship boook in citation form, together with a full reading from one of the Church Fathers and the collect of the day from the LCMS breviary. Since I do a patristic reading in the AM and in the PM, this may well become my next purchase.

Rob+

[ 12. April 2012, 15:07: Message edited by: FatherRobLyons ]
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Baronius Press' edition of the English-Latin "Extraordinary Form" Roman Breviary finally appears to have left the press: link.

Genuine curiosity. Is that the pre-1970 version with post-1970 bits or what?
In essence it is the breviary as reformed in 1962 with the Pius XII Holy Week, as originally published by the Liturgical Press in 1963, but with the "New"/Cardinal Bea psalter of the 1963 edition replaced by the Vulgate psalter. I understand that the latter was for the benefit of those traditionalist Catholics who did not care for the Pian psalter. I don't know what else will have changed but I assume very little.
A quick glance seems to show this to be a monumental task completed with devotion.

We will all have our individual gripes, but it was a shame that the editors chose rather inferior translations for some of the hymns (not least what they have used for 'The Royal Banners Forward Go') and the psalms. They would have best been served by using the Anglican Breviary and BCP texts as translations. However, given the traditionalist nature of those wishing to promulgate this breviary, perhaps pride forbade them to do so.

Had he been involved in the editing, I have no doubt that Benedict XVI would have agreed. THere was always a rumour that in the 1970s Paul VI particuarly liked Coverdale's psalms sung by English cathedral choirs. He ordered recordings from time to time, and sent £400 to the Canterbury Cathedral Preservation Trust.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I'm confused about these psalms.

The Cardinal Bea ones are the monthly cycle as in the breviary that I used/use on holiday?

The Pian ones are an early C20 revision of the weekly cycle (that replaced psalms 148/149/150 at the end of Lauds?)?

What's the Vulgate ones? The Tridentine ones?

So Mattins/Office of Readings now has nine psalms again?
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Those who sing to greet lights and shadows may be interested in this web page . They have a complete antiphonal for the ordinary time English refrains from Common Worship: Daily Prayer!
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
FWIW, I did end up buying the Baronius Breviary. Happy to answer any questions about it that can be answered by looking at it, as long as I do understand what you are talking about. The latter is a serious limitation, believe you me...
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
It looks absolutely splendid. But does it take houra a day to say?

One really good thing about smartphones and the Daily Office is that AT LAST,(for an Anglican) at long bloody last, it is possible to have something IN ONE BOOK. Well, ONE PLACE.

That for me is the first, second, third and main consideration in the use of ANY office. IS IT IN ONE BOOK (PLACE)? The fussing around with an office book, bible, lectionary is just absurd.
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Might have been said before, but I have just found the Mundelein Psalter. I'm still trying to figure some of it out as the layout is a little odd, but it has some very nice resources (lots of free stuff on the net too here )
Click on the audio files page and you can get a whole set of free office hymns
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
A little glitch in my Collegeville breviary which I hope is not repeated in the Baronius Press version. For last week's commemoration of Pope St Urban, the Latin is "Deus, qui Ecclesiam tuam, in apostolicae petrae soliditate fundatam, ab infernarum eruis terrore portarum: praesta, quaesumus; ut, intercedente beato Urbano tuo atque Summo Pontifice, in tua veritate persistens, continua securitate muniatur". This is fine except that the English translation runs "Lord, Eternal Shepherd, in Your Goodness watch over your flock and guard it always under the protective patronage of Your Martyr and Sovereign Pontiff St. Urban, whom You made to be shepherd of Your Whole Church", which is an entirely different collect!
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
A little glitch in my Collegeville breviary which I hope is not repeated in the Baronius Press version. For last week's commemoration of Pope St Urban, the Latin is "Deus, qui Ecclesiam tuam, in apostolicae petrae soliditate fundatam, ab infernarum eruis terrore portarum: praesta, quaesumus; ut, intercedente beato Urbano tuo atque Summo Pontifice, in tua veritate persistens, continua securitate muniatur". This is fine except that the English translation runs "Lord, Eternal Shepherd, in Your Goodness watch over your flock and guard it always under the protective patronage of Your Martyr and Sovereign Pontiff St. Urban, whom You made to be shepherd of Your Whole Church", which is an entirely different collect!

For some reason [and it could really do some damage to my Lutheran Pew Cred], I know that the latter is a generic collect taken from the Common of Popes. (See here, oops, SSPX is also not good for Lutheran Pew Cred.)

Ah, I see that the Latin collect is also from the Common of Popes. It's kinda funny/sad that they would mess it up so much that a person who recognizes only bits and pieces of Latin (me) can figure out that they are two different collects.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
A little glitch in my Collegeville breviary which I hope is not repeated in the Baronius Press version. For last week's commemoration of Pope St Urban, the Latin is "Deus, qui Ecclesiam tuam, in apostolicae petrae soliditate fundatam, ab infernarum eruis terrore portarum: praesta, quaesumus; ut, intercedente beato Urbano tuo atque Summo Pontifice, in tua veritate persistens, continua securitate muniatur". This is fine except that the English translation runs "Lord, Eternal Shepherd, in Your Goodness watch over your flock and guard it always under the protective patronage of Your Martyr and Sovereign Pontiff St. Urban, whom You made to be shepherd of Your Whole Church", which is an entirely different collect!

Ah, I see that the Latin collect is also from the Common of Popes. It's kinda funny/sad that they would mess it up so much that a person who recognizes only bits and pieces of Latin (me) can figure out that they are two different collects.
I thought the same, being in much the same position as you. My sources tell me that the Collegeville breviary was not expected to last long and - I infer - put together in a hurry, which might explain this and other little errors.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
The CW daily office has such tortuously long readings which I find really boring. The Roman one does at least give the opportunity for some`readings other than biblical.

AND it is NOT IN ONE BOOK. As you may remember, this is my over riding principle in selecting an office to say. I have the impression that probably most people who say the daily office regularly do so 'solitary'.

Again, this is the value of having the office downloaded on to a smart phone. One can even vary the language: English, Spanish, Latin...
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
A little glitch in my Collegeville breviary which I hope is not repeated in the Baronius Press version. For last week's commemoration of Pope St Urban, the Latin is "Deus, qui Ecclesiam tuam, in apostolicae petrae soliditate fundatam, ab infernarum eruis terrore portarum: praesta, quaesumus; ut, intercedente beato Urbano tuo atque Summo Pontifice, in tua veritate persistens, continua securitate muniatur". This is fine except that the English translation runs "Lord, Eternal Shepherd, in Your Goodness watch over your flock and guard it always under the protective patronage of Your Martyr and Sovereign Pontiff St. Urban, whom You made to be shepherd of Your Whole Church", which is an entirely different collect!

I'm afraid the problem persists in the Baronius breviary, except that instead of "Lord" we now find "Oh God". Nice find, send it to Baronius?
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
A little glitch in my Collegeville breviary which I hope is not repeated in the Baronius Press version. For last week's commemoration of Pope St Urban, the Latin is "Deus, qui Ecclesiam tuam, in apostolicae petrae soliditate fundatam, ab infernarum eruis terrore portarum: praesta, quaesumus; ut, intercedente beato Urbano tuo atque Summo Pontifice, in tua veritate persistens, continua securitate muniatur". This is fine except that the English translation runs "Lord, Eternal Shepherd, in Your Goodness watch over your flock and guard it always under the protective patronage of Your Martyr and Sovereign Pontiff St. Urban, whom You made to be shepherd of Your Whole Church", which is an entirely different collect!

I'm afraid the problem persists in the Baronius breviary, except that instead of "Lord" we now find "Oh God". Nice find, send it to Baronius?
Will do; the correct English translation does feature on p.818 of volume II, the Common of Confessor Bishops, but that does of course mean you have to go looking for it.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I understand tfrom The Portal magazine that a customary for the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham in the UK will shortly be published by Canterbury Press of Norwich.

Among other things it will contains orders for Morning and Evening Prayer based on the BCP, as well as the Coverdale Psalter, the Litany, minor offices for use during the day and Compline.
 
Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I understand tfrom The Portal magazine that a customary for the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham in the UK will shortly be published by Canterbury Press of Norwich.

Now £38.25 The Customary was only £23.99 when I ordered mine a week or so ago!

[ 02. June 2012, 18:49: Message edited by: Sacred London ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Also just ordered a copy of the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham from Amazon.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
I ordered mine from Alan & Margaret Edwards at £28.50, which I thoight a fair price, and also a good opportunity to support one of my favourite booksellers (copies of their new and secondhand theological books catalogue can be obtained from am.books@tiscali.co.uk if anyone is interested.)
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've just received a copy of the 1944 edition of The Prayer Book Office by Fr Paul Hartzell, which is in good condition. I haven't looked at it closely yet, but there would seem to be some quite significant differences between it and the 1963 edition which I also have.

I have also just heard from Amazon that the publication of The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham has been put back to September.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
After having a brief look at the 1944 Prayer Book Office I note that it has the original 1549 orders of Morning and Evening Prayer as well as some common lessons printed in full which may be used for the recitation of MP and EP.

On the other hand it does not have the orders for Prime, Terce, Sext, None and Compline which the 1963 edition has, nor does it appear to any antiphons for the psalms.

In any case, both editions are fascinating books, which I think that on the whole I prefer to the later editions compiled by Howard Galley in the 1980s based on the 1979 ECUSA BCP, although the latter also contain much interesting material.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Correction - the 1944 Prayer Book Office does have psalm antiphons. I have just prayed Evensong using the 1549 order and the common lections for the Trinity season.

I remember reading somewhere some time ago that Lancelot Andrewes Press had vaguely considered reprinting Hartzell's PBO, but had been uncertain whether to reprint the 1944 or 1963 editions. Nothing seems to have come of this, though.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I remember reading somewhere some time ago that Lancelot Andrewes Press had vaguely considered reprinting Hartzell's PBO, but had been uncertain whether to reprint the 1944 or 1963 editions. Nothing seems to have come of this, though.

I'd want the 1963, as I've already got the 1944. I'm imagining that the 1963 might be less confusing to use than the 1944 (and more developed in some ways).
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Well, I've also got the 1963 PBO and I'm not certain that it is less confusing to use than the 1944 edition!! It is possibly slightly more developed, as it has the orders for Prime, Terce, Sext, None and Compline which the 1944 edition does not.

I will have to compare both editions closely to see how much the 1963 edition advanced on that of 1944.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Well, I've also got the 1963 PBO and I'm not certain that it is less confusing to use than the 1944 edition!! It is possibly slightly more developed, as it has the orders for Prime, Terce, Sext, None and Compline which the 1944 edition does not.

I will have to compare both editions closely to see how much the 1963 edition advanced on that of 1944.

I get confused in the 1944 edition by the various iterations of the Office rites: 1549, 1928...is the 1662 in there as well? I forget...

I do like the World Calendar, though! Fixed date for Easter; 30-day months plus World Holidays...perhaps one of them can be Festivus.

[ 26. June 2012, 20:32: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
The earlier editions of Fr. Hartzell's Prayer Book Office were more Sarum use based. For instance, the rubrics and texts suppose First Vespers for all feasts, minor feasts lacking Second Vespers. Compare this to the identical scheme in the SSJE Hours of Prayer, based upon Sarum Use. The earlier edition happily provides the 1549 services of Matins and Evensong. Compared to the 1963 edition and its followup, the earlier PBO is much much difficult to navigate, as has been said, given the Psalm antiphons being place in a separate section from the seasonal and sanctoral material. After 1963 Fr, Hartzell put in idiosyncratic material. Instead of the Old Testament texts for Vespers for Sundays in the post-Pentecost season, for instance,Fr. Hartzell employs a sentence from the Epistle of the day. The same is true for the post-Epiphany season. He omits the commemoration of St. Stephen, St. John and the Innocents on the other days of the Christmas octave. And he adds his own (prescient) opinions, like the elimination of the Septuagesima season. On the other hand, the additional canticle from the Ambrosian rite for the minor feasts is quite lovely and all the Septuagesima material is provided. The provision of a World Calendar is about as far in liturgical experimentation as Fr. Hartzell ventures. He never goes to the extreme of Howard Galley, for instance, IMHO. The Anglo Catholic Liturgy of the Hours, available through Lulu, is much like Fr. Hartzell's book, but gives only one hymn for Mattins.
I love Fr. Hartzell's book, use it (1963 edition) for my daily office (with the addition to Matins of the Laudate Psalms and daily Old Testament canticle taken from the Lancelot Andrewes Book of Common Prayer). I had recommended to the Press that it consider reissuing Fr. Hartzell's groundbreaking and edifying work.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
In contrast with both editions of Fr Hartzell's Prayer Book Office, the English Office, which was reprinted by Canterbury Press three years or so ago, is rather simpler in its ethos, as it merely contains the basic 1662 orders for Mattins and Evensong with supplementary material such as office hymns, psalm antiphons and additional collects.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
but no readings? So one still needs at least two books...oh dear.
 
Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
I just have to share something funny that happened yesterday.

I was officiating at Evening Prayer, and the congregation was a couple who had never been to EP before, but had intentionally come.

We're just about to say the Psalm together (I had announced the Psalm) when two men came up to the very small chapel and had a look that I usually interpret as wanting to join the service but being uncertain whether they can - so I looked at them and smiled.

One of the men said, "Is there an office here?"

I answered "yes" immediately - 'cause I was assuming he was interested in the service, and I interpreted his question as "Is this the Daily Office here?"

Turns out he was looking for lost & found, and kept asking questions and telling his story. I kept my answers brief, so he started asking the man in the congregation - who of course didn't know much. Finally I said, "I could take you to lost & found if I weren't in the middle of a service."

I helped them after the service, of course.

I hate to say it, but EP on Saturdays usually isn't very prayerful-feeling, 'cause it's almost always got someone who doesn't really know what they're doing, and is preoccupied with doing the right thing at the right time. I always talk them through it ("We continue with the Magnificat on p. 119," e.g.) but still sometimes they feel self-conscious or distracted and can't follow very well. The Psalm is always the hardest part.

"We will say the Psalm responsively by whole verse, pausing briefly at the asterisk. I will say the odd-numbered verses, and the congregation will say the even-numbered" usually gets the congregation trying to jump in at the asterisk of the first verse.

(If there are enough people, we do it by sides, since seating is collegial. If there are only 2 or 3 people, and I don't know them, I'll often do the me/them split so the congregation can be together and no one feels self-conscious.)

Then sometimes I'm alone, and vested, and saying all the parts, and tourists are taking pictures of me (well, probably of the chapel). When I'm alone, I like to read the readings in a very loud voice so people can hear it (my disembodied voice) throughout the cathedral, especially if it's a fun passage from Revelation or something. [Snigger]

[ 08. July 2012, 20:57: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
 
Posted by jlav12 (# 17148) on :
 
Reading the Psalm together (i.e. in unison without alternating verses) has helped me when I lead the Office. I've found that selecting canticles in numerical order also helps so that the Office has a logical feel to it.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
I really hate to say this, because I like using the Prayer Book, but have you considered making a Saturday Night Evening Prayer booklet?

You could easily make an insert on another color of paper that could could slip into the office booklet (at the correct place) each week, containing the Psalm(s) with people parts in bold, the Gloria Patri(s), and the Reading(s), with Canticle(s) if need be.

There is no reason to overcomplicate it with twenty different sentences of scripture at the beginning, or twenty different collects at the end. As long as the officiant knows to use them, it's all good.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
If anyone is interested a set of the recently-published but already out of print Baronius Press Roman Breviary is currently for sale on eBay to the highest bidder. However, it seems that the breviaries may only be collected from the seller who is unwilling to post them.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
If anyone is interested a set of the recently-published but already out of print Baronius Press Roman Breviary is currently for sale on eBay to the highest bidder. However, it seems that the breviaries may only be collected from the seller who is unwilling to post them.

I think the "collection only" label is a subterfuge to avoid being caught by any capped postage requirements eBay may be imposing. I'd love to know the size of the print run...
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
Now that it's confirmed that the Liturgy of the Hours is being re-translated soon (Drafts are to be submitted as soon as October!) I wonder if we will finally get the office hymns?

Liturgiam Authenticam says that everything has to be translated exactly and thoroughly,and in totality, with nothing omitted or replaced, so I'm guessing (Hoping!) the semi-illegal addition of popular hymns will be changed, even if it happens after a huge fight.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
It seems that the Baronius Press Breviary which was up for bids on eBay has now been withdrawn from sale as the seller apparently no longer has it available. Perhaps he got a better offer outwith eBay!!

I also hope that revised translation of the Liturgy of the Hours has the appropriate Office Hymns when it eventually appears. I have never thought that the current hymns provided in the UK, USA and African editions were particularly satisfactory. Benedictine Daily Prayer on the other hand does provide modern translations of the Office Hymns, which are usable if not perfect.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
The Baronius Press Breviary was re-listed on a "buy-it-now" basis as the reserve was not met, so I jumped in quickly and bought it as I may not get another chance to acquire the set!!
 
Posted by Bran Stark (# 15252) on :
 
I got a copy of "Monastic Breviary Matins" from Lancelot Andrewes Press.

It is a very attractive volume, and the cover is just amazingly soft and smooth. It needs ribbons so badly though... I have like seven bookmarks in it now.

I like the feature of using accent marks and italics to indicate when syllables in the hymns should be sounded out of elided, respectively.

I'm not sure if I'm gonna pray regularly with it, because I don't have the (more expensive) companion volume the "Monastic Duirnal", and unless I do the awkwardly mismatched thing of Breviary Matins + BCP Evening Prayer, I'll only have one (very long) office per day.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Is it possible to download CW:DP from the website so as to use it as an e-book? (I think I got all the terms right there - I want to put Matins and Evensong according to Common Worship for a two week period onto my Kindle. Is that possible?)

Thurible
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I received my Baronius Press breviary from the eBay seller this morning. It is a very handsome publication and I am delighted with it. It should give a lifetime of service.

I will keep my Collegeville Breviary in reserve and possibly use it as a travelling breviary.

Has anyone ever read the book by Donald Withey on the influence of the Roman Breviary on the devotional life of John Henry Newman when he was still an Anglican? I used to have a copy but gave it away some time ago. I believe that Newman collected several editions of the breviary himself which are still preserved in his room at Oscott College.
 
Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I believe that Newman collected several editions of the breviary himself which are still preserved in his room at Oscott College.

...All the best people do, you know!

I have the Withry book although I haven't read it yet; in fact I am grateful to you for reminding me of it as I was looking for some holiday reading! I am undecided yet whether I will take my Collegeville with me or go for the Short Breviary.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
The Farnborough Abbey Monastic Diurnale is also a good short breviary for taking on holiday, as is the edition published by Lancelot Andrewes Press. Neither of them take up much room in a suitcase or travelling bag. The Diurnale Romanum which I think was published under SSPX auspices is also good for this purpose, as it has all the 1961 Breviarium Romanum offices except Matins.

I think it would be rather a good idea if Vatican Press or perhaps Midwest Theological Forum produced a single-volume edition of the Latin Liturgia Horarum for travelling, containing all the offices for the entire year except the Office of Readings. This would be the Latin equivalent to the Collins Daily Prayer volume.
 
Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :
 
Thurible:
I was looking into ways of getting CW:DP onto the kindle. I feel it should be possible using Calibre but I haven't got it to work yet, and I'm struggling to find the time to do it.

You can try saving the HTML from the web then emailing it to your @kindle.com address. That sort of works.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Thanks.

Thurible
 
Posted by Laurence (# 9135) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
It looks absolutely splendid. But does it take houra a day to say?

One really good thing about smartphones and the Daily Office is that AT LAST,(for an Anglican) at long bloody last, it is possible to have something IN ONE BOOK. Well, ONE PLACE.

That for me is the first, second, third and main consideration in the use of ANY office. IS IT IN ONE BOOK (PLACE)? The fussing around with an office book, bible, lectionary is just absurd.

Absolutely. The Common Worship Daily Prayer website here, for all its idiosyncrasies, has made such a difference to me. In fact, I'd say it's the best thing the C of E has done in the last few years from the point of helping me to pray (rather than helping me to bang my head against a brick wall and moan "Why, Lord?" [Devil] ).

It was an amazing moment when I realised that I could say Evening Prayer on the train or at home, without having to make up readings and collects- or alternatively carry three books around with me. And no more flicking through hundreds of pages, back and forth to find collects, psalms, antiphons for the Common of a Bishop Who Was Not A Virgin... joy!

At last, we're freed from Cranmer's bugbear- that it takes longer to find what you've got to read than to actually read it out!
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Will this go into a phone directly?

I have just purchased hyperion's Psalms of David a 12 CD boxed set of all the psalms sung by the choir of King's College, Cambridge.

I enjoy keeping my Latin up with the Liturgia Horarum on my phone and in the four volumed set. However, after a number of years I just hanker after those words of Coverdale and that glorious, incomparable Anglican chant. I understand that Pope Benedict XVI likes it as well.

And in that version sung almost daily in English cathedrals, they are so easy to commit to memory. When I am old and blind, I shall rely on that.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I have just purchased hyperion's Psalms of David a 12 CD boxed set of all the psalms sung by the choir of King's College, Cambridge.

St Paul's Cathedral [Biased] . The second series of the complete Psalter coming out from the record label Priory has very interesting settings.
 
Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :
 
It was not the Priory label which has produced the complete 150 Psalms from St.Paul's but the other label Hyperion.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I have just purchased hyperion's Psalms of David a 12 CD boxed set of all the psalms sung by the choir of King's College, Cambridge.

St Paul's Cathedral [Biased] . The second series of the complete Psalter coming out from the record label Priory has very interesting settings.
Yes St Pauls. A good choir whatever.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Realized that a new edition of a hymnal of for the Hours is available. Hymns for Prayer and Praise is worth checking out and using.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
AND it is NOT IN ONE BOOK. As you may remember, this is my over riding principle in selecting an office to say. I have the impression that probably most people who say the daily office regularly do so 'solitary'.

I don't think I have brayed recently about this decent one-book option for saying the daily office in the Episcopal Church.

The American 1979 BCP is bound together with the NRSV.

It satisfies those who are content to use the words TEC wants you to use. It is all you need. Plus, Oxford may still be including the old BCP1979 Lectionary in addition to the RCL.

If you want an older version of the Coverdale Psalter (say the American BCP 1928) or if you can't abide the NRSV and need the RSV, you are out of luck, so far as I know.
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Realized that a new edition of a hymnal of for the Hours is available. Hymns for Prayer and Praise is worth checking out and using.

I use the first edition, and would be grateful to see what has changed.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Realized that a new edition of a hymnal of for the Hours is available. Hymns for Prayer and Praise is worth checking out and using.

I use the first edition, and would be grateful to see what has changed.
I've got both and like them a lot. The new one isn't a radical overhaul but has some judicious improvements. From the preface:

"The principles of the first edition have been upheld, but the collection has been revised and enlarged, including expansion of the hymns for Lent and Eastertide, and additional hymns for the Common and for specific feasts. At the suggestion of The Canterbury Press, the revised edition appears in two versions: words and melodies only, and full music."

The preface goes on to explain that the first edition's contents were thoroughly reviewed by the compilers and by representatives of religious communities around the world, and also someone from "an English cathedral where the book is used daily." The compilers then decided which items should be retained without changes, which revised, and which replaced. Many made the cut without revision; 60+ texts are new (favoring North American contributors like Saint Meinrad Archabbey and St. Walburga Abbey).

The second edition pays closer attention to the plainsong melodies, eschewing the adaptation and simplification that was done in the first edition.

There's also now a collection of "common melodies" that can easily be transferred from one hymn text to another, to help small communities and churches or users with limited music-reading skills.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Strangelywe seem to be returning to the situation that obtained in the days of the metrical psalters. There may have been 150 psalms in metre, but only about two dozen tunes in common use in most parishes. The vast profusion of tunes and hymns - at least in Anglicanism - is a product of the Western Gallery music, Evangelicalism, and then the High Church and Anglo-Catholic responses to the same.

PD
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
AND it is NOT IN ONE BOOK. As you may remember, this is my over riding principle in selecting an office to say. I have the impression that probably most people who say the daily office regularly do so 'solitary'.

I don't think I have brayed recently about this decent one-book option for saying the daily office in the Episcopal Church.

The American 1979 BCP is bound together with the NRSV.

It satisfies those who are content to use the words TEC wants you to use. It is all you need. Plus, Oxford may still be including the old BCP1979 Lectionary in addition to the RCL.

If you want an older version of the Coverdale Psalter (say the American BCP 1928) or if you can't abide the NRSV and need the RSV, you are out of luck, so far as I know.

Yes this is an excellent publication - as was the older version. There is much to be said for praying the prayer of the church, rather than just praying one what wants in a solopistic sort of way.

It is still a pity that one cant find this combined with Covedale's psalter. If one removed the unnecessary repetition of collects (it only requires one brain cell to be able to move from traditional to contemporary English with the collects so unnecessary to print both versions), it would only need a little more space perhaps.

But thank you for reminding us. It is splendid.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Even BETTER perhaps is TEC's Daily Office Book in two volumes bound in leather and just about pocket size.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Just ordered a set of the Midwest Theological Forum edition of the Liturgia Horarum. It will be interesting to see how it compares with the vinyl-covered Vatican Press edition.

I ordered the hardback edition as the leather-covered edition is well beyond my means!!!!!
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I've just taken delivery of the hardback six-volume edition of the Liturgia Horarum published by Midwest Theological Forum.

My initial impressions are that the quality of the printing and binding of this edition is excellent and much better than that of the vinyl-covered Vatican Press edition which I also have.

On the other hand, I think that this edition would be better used in church and at home rather than when travelling, as it is fairly large and rather more like a textbook in size in comparison with the Vatican Press edition and with the various English-language editions of the LOH. It looks and feels rather like the three volume Latin-French Heures Gregoriennes. Also, there are only two ribbons per volume, and I really think more are required.

Each of the six volumes is provided with two cards for the frequently-used texts such as the Benedictus and Magnificat.

It will be interesting to see if MTF will eventually publish an English version of the LOH when the revision of it is complete. I very much hope so.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Even BETTER perhaps is TEC's Daily Office Book in two volumes bound in leather and just about pocket size.

It sounds scrumptious!
Is it in "other than black" and if not is the black in any way a special shade?
Could you maybe please put a link to a picture of that/them...my "pray-dar" is beeping.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Even BETTER perhaps is TEC's Daily Office Book in two volumes bound in leather and just about pocket size.

It sounds scrumptious!
Is it in "other than black" and if not is the black in any way a special shade?
Could you maybe please put a link to a picture of that/them...my "pray-dar" is beeping.

Daily Office Book

It's in black only. The two-volume one uses the Revised Standard Version for the lessons; the one-volume Contemporary Office Book at the same link uses the New Revised Standard Version.
 
Posted by lilyswinburne (# 12934) on :
 
I've always wanted a copy but they are too expensive. Why doesn't the publisher publish a paperback version?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lilyswinburne:
I've always wanted a copy but they are too expensive. Why doesn't the publisher publish a paperback version?

Or one of the leather alternatives like Vivella. I really wish they'd reprint Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office in an affordable version (or at this point, any version).
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Yes, it would be great if Howard Galley's Prayer Book Office would be reprinted in a new edition, perhaps with the addition of office hymns and Marian antiphons for Compline.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
But is this, vitally, crucially, most importantly OF ALL, complete in itself, as in ALL IN ONE BOOK? Readings, psalms, the lot?

For me, if you need more than one book to say the Office it invalidates its use completely.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
But is this, vitally, crucially, most importantly OF ALL, complete in itself, as in ALL IN ONE BOOK? Readings, psalms, the lot?

For me, if you need more than one book to say the Office it invalidates its use completely.

Well, I'm told that paper technology has advanced so more pages (of sufficient durability) can be put into books without making the book thicker (the fairly recent pew edition of Evangelical Lutheran Worship being an example), so a Prayer Book Office bound up with an NRSV Bible might not be unreasonably huge. And should be attempted, IMHO.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Thanks, Oblatus
It looks quite dark chocolatey to me...
Is the one with the NRSV that which is familiarly referred to as "the brick"?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Thanks, Oblatus
It looks quite dark chocolatey to me...
Is the one with the NRSV that which is familiarly referred to as "the brick"?

No; the Contemporary Office Book contains the office material from the BCP 1979 with the lectionary readings from the NRSV but not the whole Bible.

The "Brick" has the whole NRSV Bible with the whole BCP 1979.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Yes, get the brick.
 
Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
I've just taken delivery of the hardback six-volume edition of the Liturgia Horarum published by Midwest Theological Forum.

My initial impressions are that the quality of the printing and binding of this edition is excellent and much better than that of the vinyl-covered Vatican Press edition which I also have.

On the other hand, I think that this edition would be better used in church and at home rather than when travelling, as it is fairly large and rather more like a textbook in size in comparison with the Vatican Press edition and with the various English-language editions of the LOH. It looks and feels rather like the three volume Latin-French Heures Gregoriennes. Also, there are only two ribbons per volume, and I really think more are required.

Each of the six volumes is provided with two cards for the frequently-used texts such as the Benedictus and Magnificat.

It will be interesting to see if MTF will eventually publish an English version of the LOH when the revision of it is complete. I very much hope so.

If they were to publish one in double column as in the Latin version, I would not be able to resist buying a set.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Neither could I!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope MTF do produce such a set in due course.
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
bump
 
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on :
 
My apologies but I don't remember this topic being covered earlier. Does anyone have any experience with the '28 or '79 BCP on Kindle? Was it overall a positive or negative experience? Thanks!
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
My apologies but I don't remember this topic being covered earlier. Does anyone have any experience with the '28 or '79 BCP on Kindle? Was it overall a positive or negative experience? Thanks!

I've had the 1979 BCP on a Kindle DX, and it's mostly negative because it's a pain to go to a particular page. The newer touchscreen Kindles probably make this easier. The best books on my Kindle are those I tend to read from the beginning through to the end, just paging forward. Other navigation isn't all that quick. So liturgical books that require some flipping are a pain.

I readily acknowledge that some of this is due to my own Kindle incompetence. If I practiced, I'm sure I'd find ways to jump around a book easily.

[ 13. September 2012, 18:36: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Anyone have any bulletins or breaking news about the Daily Office? Rumours of new books? Experiences of public praying of the Office?

Last week I attended the 11:50 a.m. Daytime Prayer at Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago. It's handled similarly to Evening Prayer, which I've reported on before, but the book provided is Catholic Book Publishing's Daytime Prayer. As I approached the front of the nave, a nice lady asked, "Would you like to pray with us?" and gave me a copy of the office book with its ribbon set to the day's office on p. 309.

Two officiants took their place at the head of each side of the nave pews, to lead each respective side in alternating strophes of the psalms.

The main officiant was a young priest on the "epistle side." He gave a lot of audible rubrics: after he read an antiphon and we repeated it, he'd say, "Starting with this side" before starting the psalm itself. After the Gloria Patri and his reading of the psalm prayer, he'd say, "Going back to the First Antiphon...we say together..."

I used to think the psalm-prayers, which are in the USA edition of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, were a huge mistake, especially in their placement before the repetition of the antiphon after a psalm. Indeed, some books on the LotH make this very point. But after experiencing it done as printed, I wonder how it could be any other way: the psalm-prayers have no ending formula or Amen, and to follow them with the repetition of the antiphon seems the only thing that makes some sense. The best thing otherwise would be to skip the psalm-prayer.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
According to Amazon UK the publication of The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham for use by the ordinariate in the UK has been further delayed. I wonder if this is because the Vatican is being slow to give approval to the new liturgical texts?

Does anyone know if it is planned to publish a similar book for the ordinariate in the USA with the liturgies for mass and daily office, etc?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
According to Amazon UK the publication of The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham for use by the ordinariate in the UK has been further delayed. I wonder if this is because the Vatican is being slow to give approval to the new liturgical texts?

Does anyone know if it is planned to publish a similar book for the ordinariate in the USA with the liturgies for mass and daily office, etc?

I guess no one knows. I'm thinking the Book of Divine Worship continues to be at least quasi-official until something else is promulgated?
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Just heard from Amazon UK that publication of The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham has been further delayed!! I hope it doesn't take as long to appear as did the Baronius Press Roman Breviary!!!!
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
It looks like one must subsist on a combination of the Book of Divine Worship and the Ordinariate Calendar (PDF) for now.

This letter from the Ordinary seems to imply that the Rite II (modern language Anglican) forms of the Book of Divine Worship not be utilized, and that modern language Catholic forms be utilized instead. It seems to be discussing the Mass, but I suspect that upon a request for clarity the CDW would state that it extends to the office as well.

Thus, it seems a member of the Ordinariate has the Ordinariate calendar, the BDW Rite I office, and the modern Catholic office as daily prayer resources.

Even English-speaking non-Ordinariate Catholics have a daily office that is out of "jive" with the new Roman Missal.

[ 01. October 2012, 21:41: Message edited by: Olaf ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
It seems that the BDW is also being used as a temporary measure by the Ordinariate groups at St Agatha's in Portsmouth and in Manchester in the United Kingdom.
 
Posted by Craigie (# 17364) on :
 
I am looking to add to my collection of modern language Daily Office Books.
I have "The Prayer Book Office" by Galley, "Common Worship - Daily Prayer" and "Common Prayer - A Liturgy for Ordinary Radicals".
Can anyone suggest any others to supplement this selection? [Help]
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
How modern do you want?

The Saint Helena Breviary includes the traditional bits, but uses inclusive language (very well, IMHO). The Monastic Edition available from the sisters includes chant notation. The Personal Edition available elsewhere does not. It's been a while since I've looked at mine, but I don't think the full scripture readings are included in the Monastic Edition.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Hi Craigie

May I suggest adding The Daily Office SSF and Benedictine Daily Prayer to your liturgical library, both of which I have?

The former is very similar to Common Worship - Daily Prayer with the additon of some very interesting Franciscan prayers and devotions. The latter is based on the modern office as used in some Benedictine monasteries such as St John's Abbey in the USA. It is quite similar to the Roman Catholic DO/LOH in format, and uses an inclusive-language version of the Grail psalter.
 
Posted by Craigie (# 17364) on :
 
Thank you for the suggestions. The St. Helena Breviary looks very interesting. I will definately look into that!
By modern I mean without the "thees" and "thous". I have plenty of Office Books in the older style/language but am now exploring the more modern ones...I thought it was about time I became aware of new ways of developing and "doing" the liturgy. [Razz]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Check also the
modern Daily Office of the Scottish Episcopal Church. You can download everything and print it off yourself (or use it online), and/or order the very handy-sized spiral-bound book. Basically the same psalter as the USA 1979 BCP, arranged a little differently. There's a four-week ordinary cycle and other cycles for seasons.

At St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh, I arrived slightly late for an Evening Prayer (during the choir's holiday, so it was just a spoken service), and someone kindly greeted me with a copy of the Daily Prayer book opened to the right page. Within minutes I was convinced I needed a copy of the book, and I ordered two copies to be shipped home.
 
Posted by IfUCanTalkUCanSing (# 17367) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
My apologies but I don't remember this topic being covered earlier. Does anyone have any experience with the '28 or '79 BCP on Kindle? Was it overall a positive or negative experience? Thanks!

I recently got my first tablet, an iPad 2, and downloaded the free (I believe) Lectionary for iPad. It only provides the propers (BCP New York 1979). I often use it for reading the Lessons.

I doubt there will be a decent all-in-one app for celebrating the Office properly until I write one. The invitatory and canticles really need to be sung. I allow myself to read the Psalms in speech tones (and the Lessons, and the prayers, generally) for variety.

Anyway, the app I mentioned is fine for reading the Psalms and Lessons. Except: It doesn't pick up on major Holy Days! Which is a fatal flaw, but I just check in advance to see if it's a major Holy Day, in which case I make other provision for the propers.

Also, it doesn't give alternative readings. (I chose to read Judith 2 or 3 weeks ago rather than Esther, which I have read or heard many times.) And it doesn't give BCP page numbers for the psalms, which makes it unuseful for officiating with a congregation.
 
Posted by IfUCanTalkUCanSing (# 17367) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Anyone have any bulletins or breaking news about the Daily Office? Rumours of new books? Experiences of public praying of the Office?

I am a member of St Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco but, as I live in Oakland, I find it impractical to sing daily Morning Prayer at St Gregory's.

So I recently entered into a partnership with the redoubtable Mauricio Wilson, rector of St Paul's, the large church in downtown Oakland, such that we have begun Morning Prayer there three days a week (which is as often as I can commit myself to leading the Office, not being on staff over there or elsewhere in the immediate neighborhood. I am a layman BTW). We read the Prayer Book office and the EOW Great Litany from a trifold flyer, singing canticles and hymns (a capella) from The Hymnal or, more often, from sheet music I create using Finale, inserting the verses between the clefs that contain Anglican chant settings from The Hymnal. (For singability and variety I like to use metrical paraphrases of canticles sung to hymn tunes too, from the 1986 New Metrical Psalter.) The only exception to strict use of the BCP form is that I use the EOW alternative to the salutation (which is used in the BCP noonday office). It has always seemed silly to me to say the salutation between the Apostle's Creed and the Lord's Prayer.

I only recently really discovered the EOW version of the Great Litany. I love it, especially the provision for using different sections on different days. It provides a comprehensive set of prayers for the church and the world without needing to be excessively long on any given day. We pray every week for a few people by name from the parish prayer list, and for staff members from the parish, the school and retirement home the parish founded, and from other neighboring institutions, as well as the Bishop, Rector, President, Governor and Mayor.

I do try to push the envelope beyond what I experienced as the default Morning Prayer office, for instance, at the CDSP chapel in Berkeley. The congregation sings the invitatory antiphon (which is printed in the service leaflet) while I sing the verses of the Venite. We use the Benedictus and Te Deum a lot, keeping the music familiar and easy. St. Gregory's-style, but consistent with my reading of the BCP, we omit a verbal conclusion to the Lessons. Instead, we keep two minutes of silence, framed by (Tibetan temple) bells I play on my iPad.

We have a very small but growing Morning Prayer congregation.

I had some concern about the length and sometimes obscurity of the Lessons and looked into using the RCL daily readings. I like the concept but found they (namely, the OT lections) weren't really shorter than the Daily Office Lectionary equivalents. And, of course, they're not authorized. At least since we switched from Monday-Wednesday-Friday to a Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday schedule we have consecutive pericopes.

The new "Daily Prayer for All Seasons" authorized by General Convention this summer is okay, but it's not the Daily Office.

Has anyone experience using Daily Prayer for All Seasons? or the RCL Daily Readings?

[Code repair. Mamacita, Host]

[ 10. October 2012, 17:02: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by Craigie (# 17364) on :
 
quote:
The new "Daily Prayer for All Seasons" authorized by General Convention this summer is okay, but it's not the Daily Office.
This sounds interesting. Is this going to be available in book form anytime soon or is this something which will be released in the distant future?

[Code repair. Mamacita, Host]

[ 10. October 2012, 17:22: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Welcome to the Ship, IfUCanTalkUCanSing. There's a general welcome thread on the All Saints board if you feel inclined to introduce yourself. Also, there's a UBB Practice Thread available in the Styx for anyone who wants to test the functions available for quotes, links, etc. Enjoy sailing with us!

Mamacita, Eccles Host
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Craigie:
quote:
The new "Daily Prayer for All Seasons" authorized by General Convention this summer is okay, but it's not the Daily Office.
This sounds interesting. Is this going to be available in book form anytime soon or is this something which will be released in the distant future?
This is the first I've heard of it but I found a free download at this link and also a pdf [HUGE file alert!] available on this site.

This item from the Episcopal Café blog provides a bit of background which suggests whether a person might be inclined to like this or not:
quote:
The Daily Prayer for All Seasons is proposed “for experimental use by individuals and in congregations and other church groups wishing to pray or meditate throughout the day,” according to the Blue Book resolution. It is intended to complement the Daily Offices and Daily Devotions within the Book of Common Prayer.
“Those are really wonderfully rethought for a contemporary audience,” Phillips said. The idea is to offer “not a replacement, but an alternative to what’s in our prayer book to appeal differently, to fit into people’s complicated and post-modern lives.” She believes they will be especially useful in places like college campuses or with retreat groups, “but especially for people to carry around in their car, maybe have an application on their mobile phone that they can pray an office … in 10 minutes.”

Without having worked my way through it, I like that there is a different form for each liturgical season, but know that won't be everyone's cup of tea.


[Gahh! Botched up my own code. Preview Post is my friend, too...]

[ 10. October 2012, 17:21: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
What if I can already pray a BCP office in less than 10 minutes, and on my cell phone as well? [Snigger]

Really, anybody should be able to do so fairly easily. Also, the prayer book does provide shorter means of devotions as well.

I can't fault them for a little harmless exploration with new things, especially as most powers that be in TEC came of age in the 60s and 70s, but perhaps they should be spending more time teaching people to pray the offices that already exist!

[ 11. October 2012, 00:46: Message edited by: Olaf ]
 
Posted by Craigie (# 17364) on :
 
Does anyone have any experience of "Praise in All Our Days - Common Prayer from Taize"?
It has been recommended to me but seems quite a thin book for daily offices compared with other books I have. Is it very repetitive?
Thank you in advance for your help! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
We used it for Wednesday lunchtimes in the late 70's in a Middle of the City church being all urban and that
I would not say it was repetitive - rather that everything was rather short, sweet and to the point. Narrow vocab as well since in many settings it would be being prayed by people using a 2nd, 3rd or 4th language.
No frills, spare but cogent.
I think it probably works best if you are in a group that is keen on being a Christian Community (even if just for that once).
Can't imagine it solitary.
None of the above meant as a criticism, btw
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I can't fault them for a little harmless exploration with new things, especially as most powers that be in TEC came of age in the 60s and 70s, but perhaps they should be spending more time teaching people to pray the offices that already exist!

Exactly what I was thinking. Sometimes there seems to be a desire to churn out something new, when there's something existing that just needs to be used. If there's a fear that the existing material is potentially boring, there are certainly plenty of variations that can be tried: a lucernarium (candle-lighting) service in the evening, various psalm plans, elaboration/simplification, singing vs. saying, etc.

Personally, it means a lot to be praying "the Office of the church" along with a lot of people elsewhere.
 
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I can't fault them for a little harmless exploration with new things, especially as most powers that be in TEC came of age in the 60s and 70s, but perhaps they should be spending more time teaching people to pray the offices that already exist!

Well, I know (and consider friends) two of the committee members and can certify with no doubt that they grew up in the 70s, maybe even the 60s. But because I know them, I tend to get (forgive me!) a wee bit touchy when the good folks on this board occasionally take swipes at the members of TEC's liturgical committees. I also don't think it fair to suggest that these liturgists, priests and professors are not "teaching people to pray the offices that already exist," in fact from personal experience I can tell you that they do. As I understand it they are responding to expressed needs, not just making stuff up for the hell of it, and I don't think it particularly helpful to set new liturgies up against the old ones in an either/or, bad/good, newfangled/classical point of view.

Again, forgive me, and I will now go scold myself for getting all Purgatorial on you.

[ 11. October 2012, 16:02: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
]Well, I know (and consider friends) two of the committee members and can certify with no doubt that they grew up in the 70s, maybe even the 60s. But because I know them, I tend to get (forgive me!) a wee bit touchy when the good folks on this board occasionally take swipes at the members of TEC's liturgical committees.

I have to say that among the recent appointments to the Standing Commission on Liturgy and Music (USA Episcopal Church) is a scholar with superb background in and commitment to the Daily Office. If there are more like him (I'll bet there are), we're in for a good couple of triennia of thoughtful deliberation from that commission. At least it's good to know there's a strong and thoughtful voice for the Daily Office.
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
I have to say that among the recent appointments to the Standing Commission on Liturgy and Music (USA Episcopal Church) is a scholar with superb background in and commitment to the Daily Office. If there are more like him (I'll bet there are), we're in for a good couple of triennia of thoughtful deliberation from that commission. At least it's good to know there's a strong and thoughtful voice for the Daily Office.

And let me add my voice to the mix, Mamacita, in saying that the products which they have released seem to be very well-done, and definitely have in mind the form of the Daily Office. I shall definitely give them a go myself, and I do thank you for the link. I'm quite sorry if I raised your blood pressure a bit.

I never doubt that excellent liturgical attentiveness and scholarship is present on the Standing Commission, and always has been.

[And as you certainly know, on the local level, I regularly serve as the target practice dummy in matters liturgical, so I can empathize.]
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Check also the
modern Daily Office of the Scottish Episcopal Church. You can download everything and print it off yourself (or use it online), and/or order the very handy-sized spiral-bound book. Basically the same psalter as the USA 1979 BCP, arranged a little differently. There's a four-week ordinary cycle and other cycles for seasons.

At St Mary's Cathedral, Edinburgh, I arrived slightly late for an Evening Prayer (during the choir's holiday, so it was just a spoken service), and someone kindly greeted me with a copy of the Daily Prayer book opened to the right page. Within minutes I was convinced I needed a copy of the book, and I ordered two copies to be shipped home.

It looks particularly flimsy and I'm not sure whether....THE READINGS ARE PRINTED IN FULL. If not, then useless.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
It looks particularly flimsy and I'm not sure whether....THE READINGS ARE PRINTED IN FULL. If not, then useless.

OK. Sorry to have mentioned it.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
lol
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Anyone interested in the Daily Office should be sure not to miss this excellent presentation, which among other things dispels the false dichotomy of prayer vs. mission, and indeed puts social mission in its proper perspective.

My hat's off to the fine scholar and his work.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
And while we're at it, here's another very recent (just now)
blog post on the Divine Office.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
Just heard from Amazon UK that publication of The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham has been further delayed!!

It would seem it's now out.

Thurible
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
My copy has just been dispatched by Amazon UK!!!
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I received my copy of The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham today, and it is very interesting and nicely-printed office book. Further thoughts will follow.
 
Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
Will that include thoughts about this morning's Office Hymn (IV. Times and Seasons, Part V Temporale: Time after Trinity, Thursday Morning Prayer)?
(Hint: it should be somewhere between page 398 and 399)
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
More detail, please.

How does the Office differ from the BCP offices?

Are all the readings included?

Thurible
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Is anyone aware of an (English) BCP bound with a full Bible? There's the American 1928 found here but I don't recall ever seeing an English one (ideally, 1928 but 1662 fine).

Thurible
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
There's this one from CUP. It's Authorised Version (which would be a minus point for me) and doesn't say if the apocrypha is included or not.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Thank you. I'd looked on the CUP site a little while before posting but had missed it.

The AV is a bit of a minus for me too but would do, potentially. If anyone knows of a BCP bound with the RSV, that'd be fab.

Thurible
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham contains orders for Morning Prayer, Midday Prayer, Evening Prayer and Compline which are all based on the BCP tradition in traditional language. I have not examined all the contents thoroughly yet, but I note that EP has the option of using the same biblical canticles from EP in the LOH instead of the Nunc Dimittis if Compline is also to be said.

The full BCP psalter is also included, as are collects in traditional language for all Sundays and holy days in the liturgical year, which follows the Ordinariate version of the modern Roman calendar using Sundays after Trinity rather than Sundays in Ordinary Time. Office hymns are provided for most days, with melodies, and music is also provided for other parts of the offices.

A full office lectionary is provided for the entire year but a bible is still required for the readings themselves, the RSV Catholic Edition being prescribed for Ordinariate use.Short readings are provided for Midday Prayer and there are also short readings for use while travelling.

An interesting selection of patristic readings by such authors as John Henry Newman are provided for use as additional readings on Sundays and other Holy Days.

A prayer for the Pope is provided for use after the third collect at EP.

The Customary is purely an office book and has no order for mass, although it does have the order for Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament for use after EP.

One omission which I originally thought was an error is that no office hymn is provided for MP on Thursdays throughout the year. However, after looking at the ordo which can be downloaded on the Ordinariate website I note that no office hymn is specified for Thursday MP there either, although it is for MP on all other days of the week.I do not know why this should be.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Is there a Compline?
 
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Is anyone aware of an (English) BCP bound with a full Bible? There's the American 1928 found here but I don't recall ever seeing an English one (ideally, 1928 but 1662 fine).

Thurible

If you can find a 1928 prayer book and an appropriate Bible in the same page size, a bookbinder might be able to bind them together for you. I had that done for my Greek and Hebrew texts as an ordination Bible. At that time getting them bound together cost about the same as buying a decent Bible.
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
On the Customary's Thursday Morning Office Hymn: how odd! I checked the Ordinariate ordo for the post-Trinity season, and, as noted, no hymn is appointed for Thursday Matins. Assuming that the ferial hymns in the Customary are those assigned in the traditional Roman Use (as opposed to the invariable ferial hymns for the post-Trinity season assigned in the Use of Sarum), the English Hymnal, I believe, would provide the proper one. in the Epiphany season offerings: either "Nox atra" or "Lux ecce".
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham contains orders for Morning Prayer, Midday Prayer, Evening Prayer and Compline which are all based on the BCP tradition in traditional language. I have not examined all the contents thoroughly yet, but I note that EP has the option of using the same biblical canticles from EP in the LOH instead of the Nunc Dimittis if Compline is also to be said.

The full BCP psalter is also included, as are collects in traditional language for all Sundays and holy days in the liturgical year, which follows the Ordinariate version of the modern Roman calendar using Sundays after Trinity rather than Sundays in Ordinary Time. Office hymns are provided for most days, with melodies, and music is also provided for other parts of the offices.

A full office lectionary is provided for the entire year but a bible is still required for the readings themselves, the RSV Catholic Edition being prescribed for Ordinariate use.Short readings are provided for Midday Prayer and there are also short readings for use while travelling.

An interesting selection of patristic readings by such authors as John Henry Newman are provided for use as additional readings on Sundays and other Holy Days.

A prayer for the Pope is provided for use after the third collect at EP.

The Customary is purely an office book and has no order for mass, although it does have the order for Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament for use after EP.

One omission which I originally thought was an error is that no office hymn is provided for MP on Thursdays throughout the year. However, after looking at the ordo which can be downloaded on the Ordinariate website I note that no office hymn is specified for Thursday MP there either, although it is for MP on all other days of the week.I do not know why this should be.

All wonderful BUT pretty much useless as 'a bible is still required'.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Much better to stick to the Liturgia Horarum or the Old Rite and stick in a prayer for The Queen to make it autentically English or whatever.

Both rites, fabulously, ingeniously, sensibly, only require the devout to have the ONE BOOK at a time. Or a computer or smart phone of course.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
Yes, there is an Order of Compline in The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham along with the Marian antiphons and melodies.

I would have to agree that it is not an office book I would find particularly suitable for travelling myself as you also need to take a bible along with you for the lections. However, one possible use might be as a supplementary resource for the standard DO/LOH, as the office hymns might be used instead of those found in these books. Also, the patristic readings might be used as alternatives for the Office of Readings on certain occasions.
 
Posted by Craigie (# 17364) on :
 
I have recently had three prayer books rebound by Leonard's Books in the USA. I chose their 17th Century Parson's style with spinded goatskin. They turned out superbly, far better than I imagined. I had Galley's "Prayer Book Office", "Common Worship Daily Prayer" and "Common Prayer for Ordinary Radicals" done.

Two questions:-

1) What other prayer books would you add to this list to rebind? (I have the bug!!)
2) Has anyone else had any experience of rebinding prayer books? If so please share! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
I had our seminary chapel's missal rebound in Berkeley, by Pettingell Book Bindery. It was a simple job--rebind in similar red buckram boards, repair a couple of pages, re-attach some tabs. They did a superb job, which cost around $80.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
They might be getting my parish's American Missal before too long. It is getting rather sad, and I do not like the layout Anglican Missal, even though we have one in decent condition.

One quirk of my parish is that we use the Missal at the altar, but the audible part of the Mass is pretty much 1928 BCP. We only add the Pax, Agnus Dei, and Ecce, Agnus Dei. I find this keeps both the "Broads" and the "Highs" in my parish happy.

PD
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
Received my Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham today. Quite good. I have some typographical quibbles with it, as one does. The forgetting to put a hymn for Thursday morning is regrettable. I'm glad not to see too many typos.

The lectionary is slightly confusing, and I would have used a simple scheme of M for Morning and E for Evening rather than wasting so much space putting the headings Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer on their own lines for every day of the year. Might have saved some space that could have been used between verses in the psalter.

Meow. [Razz] But not bad. I'm sure the typography was Fr Lloyd's labour of love, and in that, it's impressive. I'd do things differently but not necessarily better.

[ 30. October 2012, 03:30: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
What the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham does not have are antiphons for the psalms and gospel canticles at MP and EP. However, these can easily be supplied from other sources if you do not mind switching between books, such as The English Office also published by Canterbury Press or the Anglican Catholic Liturgy of the Hours available from Lulu.

I have found the short readings provided for use and MP and EP on certain occasions quite useful as it means a bible is not always necessary when using the Customary for the office.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
What the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham does not have are antiphons for the psalms and gospel canticles at MP and EP.

Really? So, with the exception of offering alternative canticles, are Matins and Evensong simply the Prayer Book Offices?

Thurible
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
That strikes me as extraordinary! For its presumed audience, I would say that that is a remarkable omission and will severely dent its chances of being used?
 
Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
You want Anglican patrimony? You got it. 1662™ [Razz]
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I would say that in essence the orders for MP and EP in The Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham are the BCP offices with additional canticles and optional hymns. I think the collects also differ from those in the BCP, and there is also the option of using patristic readings as a third reading.

I suppose it would be perfectly possible for to use, for example, the C of E's 1928 BCP in the same kind of way if one had the additional material at hand.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Indeed. When using the Prayer Book offices, as is the custom in the domestic oratory, I add the Office Hymn from the English Hymnal, sing the 'Salve' where it tells me to [sing "the Anthem"], and read from 'Celebrating the Seasons'/'Saints' afterwards.

Sounds like the bank manager will be keeping my money.

Thurible
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
I know an Episcopalian priest who uses the 1929 Scottish Prayer Book in a similar way. At Matins, for example, he adds the office hymn from the English Hymnal and the patristic reading from the RC Divine Office as a third reading.
 
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
Anyone have any bulletins or breaking news about the Daily Office? Rumours of new books?

In the realm of things I didn't think I'd see for a long time:

The Office of Theology and Worship of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has released an iPhone/iPad app for the Daily Office, with the offices based those in on The Book of Common Worship. ($2.99 at the iTunes store.)

There are no bells and whistles (or music) -- it is pretty much the straightforward texts for Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer, with opening sentences, psalms and readings (3 of each), canticle, thanksgiving and intercessions, concluding collect, Lord's Prayer and dismissal for each. (Evening Prayer also includes the Service of Light.) Each part of the office is on a separate "page." Midday Prayer and Prayer at the Close of Day are said to ne in preparation for future updates.

More info is here, if anyone is interested.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Right you want something interesting, then there is Seeking God's Face. It is not really an office book having one service a day, but it does follow the liturgical year, it uses silence and prayer around passages of the Bible (I suspect it is Lectio Divina but I am no expert on that and the compiliers would not use the term). Yes it is from a Conservative Reformed stance.

As I said interesting!

I intend to use it as one of my daily devotions next year and see how I get on. After all the proof of a prayer book is in the praying.

Jengie
[using preview post prevents poor coding]

[ 01. November 2012, 14:24: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Detailed review of the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham here.

And further review here.

Thurible

[ 08. November 2012, 09:48: Message edited by: Thurible ]
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
It sound like they managed to make a sow's ear out of a silk purse. It certainly is not as good as 'The English Office' - though that may be way too old style for the RCC.

My own habit has been to cobble up something a bit more Catholic from what's out there. I have the RC Liturgy of the Hours, so my daily office tends to be MP and EP from 'The English Office' plus Noon Prayer and the Office of Readings from the LOTH.

The other version that I have done is BCP Offices (or English Office version of BCP) plus the Lesser Hours as put out by the Anglican Catholic Convent Society up in Canada, though that can end up with a bit of a cluster of Offices in the morning as I tend to be a late riser if I do not have something on.

PD
 
Posted by CL (# 16145) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Detailed review of the Customary of Our Lady of Walsingham here.

And further review here.

Thurible

http://parishpriestsfd.blogspot.ie/2012/10/review-customary-of-our-lady-of.html?m=1
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
The Customary: Daily Office is impossible to use, or at least it takes a huge learning curve to master: (1) a system reading cycle and optional readings and (2) flipping through back and forth between the proper material from the universal and local calendars and then stretching out for stuffs in the Divine Office volumes.

It is a very good anthology but I'm not sure it's such a useful prayer book.

Unless Derek Olsen works that into the St Bede's breviary.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
And everything not in one book; therefore useless.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
A little more on the Customary.

Thurible
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
It might be of interest to note that the Western Use parishes under Orthodox jurisdictions (whether Antiochian or Russian Church outside Russia) employ traditional language and structure in their liturgical texts. The American Antiochian parishes differ in the Daily Office only on whether they employ the original lectionary or the 1945 version given in the 1928 American BCP. The Lancelot Andrewes Press Book of Common Prayer is the best illustration of this traditionalism. The Antichian, as well as ROCOR, Western Rite uses the older Benedictine monastic material, such as the Monastic Diurnal and Matins book. Rocor's Canadian Christminster Monastery, of course, employs Benedictine tects, mostly English, occasionally Latin. The Rocor St. Colman Prayer Book uses the 1662 Prayer Book texts for the Daily Office, the Office lectionary from the time period that witnessed the Proposed BCP, and both BCP and Sarum Use versions of the Eucharistic Liturgy.
The American Catholic Anglican Use materials, as most of you know, are derived from the 1979 BCP. I bought an ebook version of the Anglical Use Office from Lulu. Unlike the customary, the book provides antiphons for the Benedictus and Magnificat, as well as a complete Office for the Departed. The Psalter is American BCP 1928, the texts largely Rite One 1979 BCP, including the Daily Office lectionary. The book provides no texts for the Daily Office hymns. So, at least a Bible would be needed in addition to the Anglican Use volume. I my opinion, the best Anglican Office book, again, available through Lulu, is the Canadian Anglo Catholic Liturgy of the Hours.
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
Has anyone here seen a copy of or used this Psalter.

I'm a bit concerned about its durability over a period of frequent use, given the fact it is a paperback book not hardback.....
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Boadicea Trott:
Has anyone here seen a copy of or used this Psalter.

I had this about twenty years back. Very small book - just a bit broader than an iPhone. The psalms are spread over the 'hours' in a week, using the 1911 scheme of Pius X. Can't vouch for the durability because I didn't use it heavily.
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
Thanks, DitzySpike !
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
If anyone is interested a 1967 printing of Fr Hartzell's Prayer Book Office is currently up for bids on eBay. As far as I can see from the scans it is in virtually mint condition and has rather nice red-edged pages.

As far as I can make out the contents of the book are identical with the 1962 printing which I already have.
 
Posted by the Ænglican (# 12496) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by DitzySpike:
The Customary: Daily Office is impossible to use, or at least it takes a huge learning curve to master: (1) a system reading cycle and optional readings and (2) flipping through back and forth between the proper material from the universal and local calendars and then stretching out for stuffs in the Divine Office volumes.

It is a very good anthology but I'm not sure it's such a useful prayer book.

Unless Derek Olsen works that into the St Bede's breviary.

Not likely... I asked the US Bishops Office if what permissions would be needed to use the New American Bible on the Breviary (as Anglican Use readers had been asking) and got a terse note saying they'd not talk to me unless the Ordinariate group approved the site. Sent a note to them and never heard back...

So--my sense is they won't give any sort of permissions unless the full bureaucracy agrees and I don't see that happening.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Antiphon:
If anyone is interested a 1967 printing of Fr Hartzell's Prayer Book Office is currently up for bids on eBay. As far as I can see from the scans it is in virtually mint condition and has rather nice red-edged pages.

As far as I can make out the contents of the book are identical with the 1962 printing which I already have.

I want this and bid high only to be outbid almost immediately. I console myself now in these situations by reminding myself I've affiliated with a Benedictine community that has its own breviary I'm supposed to stick with and I should quit playing around. [Frown]
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Four Courts Press in Ireland has reprinted a facsimile of the Aberdeen Breviary (www.fourcourtspress.ie) but sadly without translation. Just thought I'd mention it in case anyone was interested.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
quote:
If anyone is interested a 1967 printing of Fr Hartzell's Prayer Book Office is currently up for bids on eBay. As far as I can see from the scans it is in virtually mint condition and has rather nice red-edged pages.
I don't suppose this breviary actually has the lections in it? I've asked because I've come to the same conclusion as Sebby that if a particular edition of the office does not come with everything in one book, its usefulness is severely diminished to the point that I'd almost rather not bother with it. So is this that kind of breviary, or would one need a Bible or lectionary to actually use it effectively?
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
I don't suppose this breviary actually has the lections in it? I've asked because I've come to the same conclusion as Sebby that if a particular edition of the office does not come with everything in one book, its usefulness is severely diminished to the point that I'd almost rather not bother with it. So is this that kind of breviary, or would one need a Bible or lectionary to actually use it effectively?

Nope, no lections. The PBO contains the BCP lectionary of the time, but not the texts. You need a Bible with it.
 
Posted by Patrick (# 305) on :
 
The red edged (Morehouse-Barlow) edition of Fr. Hartzell's Prayer Book Office is a revision of the 1962 book. In that earlier version, Fr. Hartzell provided two schemes for a two week recitation of the Psalter (much superior to the 1945 lectionary, which drastically reduced the daily reading of Psalms). Only one scheme remains in the later version, which supposes the use of variable Psalms for Prime and Compline daily. The 1962 book and its successor are less Sarum based than Fr. Harzell's first edition. For instance, the first edition gave primacy of place regarding feasts to First Evensong, the latter editions assuming Second Evensong as the norm. In the first edition, the Magnificat antiphons for Sunday First Evensong were Sarum texts; in latter editions, Fr. Hartzell borrowed verses from the Epistle for the Sundays after Epiphany and Trinity in place of the Sarum texts. The Anglo Catholic Liturgy of the Hours (Lulu) follows that Epistle borrowing use. The first edition of the PBO had a set of (long) seasonal readings when a Bible was not at hand. Due to the generosity of a Cowley brother, I own a first edition of the Prayer Book Office with the KJV Bible bound with it (Marymount Press). I believe Fr. Harzell's Office book to be superior in its traditionalism to most of what is now available, with the Anglo Catholic LOTH coming in close second, if you prefer the BCP Offices to other alternatives (kudos to the Lancelot Andrewes Press for its monastic offices). The Anglo Catholic LOTH book, unlike Fr. Harzell, gives but a single proper hymn for Matins. I find Brother Galley's (Church Army) find too idiosyncratic for my tastes.
 
Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 
Quick question: do people prefer their daily office books in hardcover or paperback? I'm in the process of self-publishing (will post details here when it's done) and am deciding which to use.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Quick question: do people prefer their daily office books in hardcover or paperback? I'm in the process of self-publishing (will post details here when it's done) and am deciding which to use.

In order of personal preference:
Digital
Paperback
Hardback

Why? Two and a half hour commute roundtrip, half an hour of which is walking. Anything to reduce the weight of what I'm hauling around is a blessing.
 
Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 
As I noted above, I've been doing a self-publishing project for some time, and it's finally come to (hopefully fruition).

Everyone who has been looking for the Daily Office, according to TEC 1979 Rite II, in one book, with (as a bonus!) the Angelus and Marian Antiphons should check out what I've put together.

It's available as:
- a PDF (very much free)
- a paperback
- a hardcover

The book includes:
- The Calendar of the Church Year
- Rite II Morning Prayer, Noonday Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Compline, and canticles
- Collects
- Prayers and Thanksgivings
- The Great Litany
- The Psalter
- Angelus and Marian Antiphons
- The Readings for Year One and Holy Days, from the New Revised Standard Version

If you're interested, feel very free to comb through the PDF version before buying. Please let me know by PM if you spot any errors that you would like corrected, or via PM or on this thread if you have recommendations for additional material to include.

I'm not at all trained and only self-educated in this area, so please be gentle and constructive with any criticism.

Enjoy!
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
Bostonman, have you considered adding the special collects from Lesser Feasts and Fasts (or Holy Women, Holy Men) for the weekdays of the high season....Lent, Advent, etc.?

Otherwise, this reminds me quite a bit of the Contemporary Office Book, except with Marian material. Your formatting is much nicer, in my opinion.
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
I had an inkling that, in the Roman rite, whereas the Gloria is ommitted in the Mass on Sundays during both Advent and Lent, in the Office of Readings (aka Matins) on Sundays the Te Deum is ommitted on Sundays in Lent, but on Advent Sundays the Te Deum continues to be used.

I checked on universalis.com and they have the Te Deum for the 1st Sunday of Advent. But since websites can occasionally make mistakes, especially at the beginning of a new season, I wanted to get confirmation from more knowledgeable shipmates that the Te Deum is indeed used on Sundays of Advent.
 
Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Bostonman, have you considered adding the special collects from Lesser Feasts and Fasts (or Holy Women, Holy Men) for the weekdays of the high season....Lent, Advent, etc.?

Otherwise, this reminds me quite a bit of the Contemporary Office Book, except with Marian material. Your formatting is much nicer, in my opinion.

Great idea on the additional collects, I'll look into those.

The big difference from the Contemporary Office Book is that this is one-volume-per-year, which cuts down on size a bit.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
I had an inkling that, in the Roman rite, whereas the Gloria is ommitted in the Mass on Sundays during both Advent and Lent, in the Office of Readings (aka Matins) on Sundays the Te Deum is ommitted on Sundays in Lent, but on Advent Sundays the Te Deum continues to be used.

Yes, the Te Deum continues on Sundays (and feasts) through Advent, but is omitted on Lenten Sundays.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
That's what I thought although it does confuse me slightly - was the traditional custom that the Te Deum and Gloria were always used on the same days?
 
Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Bostonman, have you considered adding the special collects from Lesser Feasts and Fasts (or Holy Women, Holy Men) for the weekdays of the high season....Lent, Advent, etc.?

Otherwise, this reminds me quite a bit of the Contemporary Office Book, except with Marian material. Your formatting is much nicer, in my opinion.

Great idea on the additional collects, I'll look into those.

The big difference from the Contemporary Office Book is that this is one-volume-per-year, which cuts down on size a bit.

Good work, but what I would rather like is the whole thing in traditional language.

[ 02. December 2012, 13:44: Message edited by: Corvo ]
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
Thank you, Hart. I see the logic, in that Advent, while it does have its penitential aspects, it also has the aspect of anticipatory joy -- it is not simply a another penitential season to the same degree as Lent.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
Good work, but what I would rather like is the whole thing in traditional language.

Latin, Greek or Hebrew?
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Bostonman, it looks good. You've convinced me that my little pipe dream might be possible to bring to reality.

The Thurible Office Book Ambition
Book of Common Prayer Matins and Evensong
Collects
Additional and Common Collects
RSV Lections (CW lectionary - is there a one year one, or is that as non-mainstream as using a non-CW lectionary? Hmm)
Coverdale Psalter
Seasonal/Festal Antiphons for the Gospel Canticle (from CW or the CSMV book or somewhere else?)
Office Hymns (English Hymnal in the main)

Thurible
 
Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
Good work, but what I would rather like is the whole thing in traditional language.

Latin, Greek or Hebrew?
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Bostonman, it looks good. You've convinced me that my little pipe dream might be possible to bring to reality.

The Thurible Office Book Ambition
Book of Common Prayer Matins and Evensong
Collects
Additional and Common Collects
RSV Lections (CW lectionary - is there a one year one, or is that as non-mainstream as using a non-CW lectionary? Hmm)
Coverdale Psalter
Seasonal/Festal Antiphons for the Gospel Canticle (from CW or the CSMV book or somewhere else?)
Office Hymns (English Hymnal in the main)

Thurible

I'd be happy with the American Daily Office readings. The original RSV version was in two yearly volumes and had traditional language offices and collects but not the Coverdale Psalter.
 
Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Bostonman, it looks good. You've convinced me that my little pipe dream might be possible to bring to reality.

The Thurible Office Book Ambition
Book of Common Prayer Matins and Evensong
Collects
Additional and Common Collects
RSV Lections (CW lectionary - is there a one year one, or is that as non-mainstream as using a non-CW lectionary? Hmm)
Coverdale Psalter
Seasonal/Festal Antiphons for the Gospel Canticle (from CW or the CSMV book or somewhere else?)
Office Hymns (English Hymnal in the main)

Thurible

If you'd like any help or advice or any of the files I used to cobble this all together, I'd be very happy to help via PM!
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
A copy of the 1963 edition of Fr Hartzell's Prayer Book Office is currently up for bids on eBay, but the current going price is £96!!!!!
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
I know this post may be a little frustrating, but I'm searching for a breviary, and I know I could trawl through this thread, but that might take a while. I currently use the SSF Divine Office and/or the RC Lauds and Vespers book (I actually like the simplicity of it), but I'm hoping for something that has readings included, plus psalms, in english (modern), hardbacked and in the Anglo Catholic tradition. It would help if it is seasonally set and doesn't require twenty ribbons and fifty bookmarks to use properly. I know I'm probably asking what has possibly already been asked on this thread a hundred times; but I'd be grateful if you'd indulge me.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
The RC Divine Office is probably your best bet. Sadly, the CofE seems determined not to publish an office book that actually contains all the readings (the downside of a three year lectionary, no doubt!).

Thurible
 
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Thanks Turible. That is I think my only option.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
While the current Catholic LotH will probably be a much more complete office, you might also consider these:

Episcopal Contemporary Office Book: One volume, Rite II, readings from NRSV

Episcopal Daily Office Book: Two volumes, Rite I/II, readings from RSV

The pastor where I did my curacy used the two-volume set and liked it very much. As I recall, they are handsome books, and quite small. Just a thought.
 
Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :
 
I shelled out the $140 for the Contemporary Office Book a while back, and I liked it and frequently used it...

Until I got a tablet computer (okay, it's really an e-reader with 3G access and a decent web browser) and could access St. Bede's Breviary on the go.
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Tonight's Compline will be the last Office streamed by the Community of St Mary the Virgin, Wantage.
Having prayed with them for 3 years plus I am feeling bereft at this loss . Not to mention daunted by the prospect of a search for a new Daily Office.

Naturally they will continue to be in my (our) prayers as they make their changes.
 
Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
While the current Catholic LotH will probably be a much more complete office, you might also consider these:

Episcopal Contemporary Office Book: One volume, Rite II, readings from NRSV

Episcopal Daily Office Book: Two volumes, Rite I/II, readings from RSV

The pastor where I did my curacy used the two-volume set and liked it very much. As I recall, they are handsome books, and quite small. Just a thought.

I use the two volume set. It's great. You can tuck it in a large-ish coat pocket or a purse and take it with you, and the readings are right there for you. Minimal page=flipping. This is a daily office that I can follow. Plus, they are very handsome. I have tried others (St. Helena breviary; Benedictine Daily Prayer breviary) and they were just too complex for me.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
I use the two volume set. It's great. You can tuck it in a large-ish coat pocket or a purse and take it with you, and the readings are right there for you. Minimal page=flipping. This is a daily office that I can follow. Plus, they are very handsome. I have tried others (St. Helena breviary; Benedictine Daily Prayer breviary) and they were just too complex for me.

I have the two-volume set and agree, although one advantage of the one-volume Contemporary Office Book is that you can borrow a lesson from the other year, as I must in the scheme I'm currently following (first lesson at Matins requires the OT lesson from Year 2). So I'm using my BCP/NRSV combo, which works fine for that and has enough ribbons.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
quote:
So I'm using my BCP/NRSV combo, which works fine for that and has enough ribbons.
A.K.A. "the Brick," A.K.A. "The Doorstop."
 
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :
 
I use the brick often as well, especially when traveling, though sometimes in the Bible section a magnifying glass helps.
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
quote:
I use the brick often as well, especially when traveling [...]
Mostly I just use the Brick to prop up the corner of our church that is sinking into the marshland it was built on.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
Good work, but what I would rather like is the whole thing in traditional language.

Latin, Greek or Hebrew?
Preferably Latin, although on inspection this does appear to be a very good publication with the VITAL feature of any Office Book, without which (to me) a similar publication would be invalidated ITS ALL IN ONE BOOK! No separate bible required.

A traditional language version might be had easily simply by using the very slight mental weight-lifting of translating as one goes along. The CofE's CW doubted the ability of people to do this, and printed both contemporary and traditional versions of the collects. Given the two weeks now required on ordination 'courses' these days, this was a wise and knowing move on the part of the liturgical commission.

A little more mental exertion, and a translation into the language of heaven might be accomplished - although it is easier to provide an instant translation from Latin to English. Recently a friend did just that. Required to offer intercessions, he took his breviary to the lectern and read them. Only later I discovered that his very slight hesitation before each petition was because he was translating from the Latin.

An edition of the BCP 1979 was published about five years ago in Latin.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
The CofE's CW doubted the ability of people to do this, and printed both contemporary and traditional versions of the collects. Given the two weeks now required on ordination 'courses' these days, this was a wise and knowing move on the part of the liturgical commission.

EXcept that there clearly isn't enough time in the two weeks to teach ordinands how to use bookmarks, so that you tend to get the 'wrong' version in any case. [Disappointed]
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I do wish the C of E wouldn't say "traditional language" when it means "artificially archaic".
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
'Tradtional language' is probably a misnomer certainly.

However, to an extent the AV translation of the bible in 1601, was 'artificially archaic' as well. And meant to be.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
oops begun 1604 completed 1611
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I have no problem at all with thees and thous in texts were written when that was standard usage. I have doubts about this stockbroker half timbering the C of E has come up with, dotting thees and thous about, but in most cases failing to use the grammar and usage of the previous period.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
I do like that stockbroker Surrey image. Even 'switch on the logs in the grate'.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I have doubts about this stockbroker half timbering the C of E has come up with,

Otherwise known as Tesco Tudor. It freaks me out, architecturally and liturgically.
 
Posted by Brother Oscar (# 17227) on :
 
This may have come up before but I can't find it in the previous Daily Office threads and the General Instruction of the LOTH.

I'm interested in how to recite the responsorary when praying the LOTH. As most readers of this thread will know, when recited in common the responsorary from Night Prayer is:

V: Into your hands I commend my spirit.
R: Into your hands I commend my spirit.
V: For you have redeemed us Lord God of truth.
R: Into your hands I commend my spirit.
V: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
R: Into your hands I commend my spirit.

I like the responsoraries but find them overly repetitive in recitation on my own. Whilst not referring to private recitation the General Instruction allows this:

quote:
171.The customary reprise of the whole responsory may be omitted when the office is not being sung, unless the sense requires this repetition.
What does this mean? Does it mean that the responsorary would then be:

V: Into your hands I commend my spirit. For you have redeemed us Lord God of truth.
R: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and shall be forever world without end.


Often I simply recite the first two lines:

Into your hands I commend my spirit. For you have redeemed us Lord God of truth.

What do you think?

What do you do?
 
Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Brother Oscar:
This may have come up before but I can't find it in the previous Daily Office threads and the General Instruction of the LOTH.

I'm interested in how to recite the responsorary when praying the LOTH. As most readers of this thread will know, when recited in common the responsorary from Night Prayer is:

V: Into your hands I commend my spirit.
R: Into your hands I commend my spirit.
V: For you have redeemed us Lord God of truth.
R: Into your hands I commend my spirit.
V: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
R: Into your hands I commend my spirit.

I like the responsoraries but find them overly repetitive in recitation on my own. Whilst not referring to private recitation the General Instruction allows this:

quote:
171.The customary reprise of the whole responsory may be omitted when the office is not being sung, unless the sense requires this repetition.
What does this mean? Does it mean that the responsorary would then be:

V: Into your hands I commend my spirit. For you have redeemed us Lord God of truth.
R: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and shall be forever world without end.


Often I simply recite the first two lines:

Into your hands I commend my spirit. For you have redeemed us Lord God of truth.

What do you think?

What do you do?

I say:

V: Into your hands I commend my spirit. For you have redeemed me Lord God of truth.
R: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Into your hands I commend my spirit
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
I'm interested in how to recite the responsorary when praying the LOTH.

In another breviary I have (which isn't the LOTH, so this isn't official for those committed to the LOTH), the alternative form suggested for responsories is to turn it into a simple versicle and response as in one of your examples. The (first half of the) Gloria Patri is omitted. So:

V: Into your hands I commend my spirit.
R: For you have redeemed us, Lord God of truth.

...and move on to the next item. Works the same with other responsories.

The responsory is generally a juxtaposition of two phrases, sometimes very interestingly from two very different sources in a way that plays them off each other. This is often done in the responsories in the Office of Readings, where there might be a phrase from Scripture and a phrase from a Church Father or a text like the Te Deum. But any responsory should be reducible to the V/R form by dropping the Gloria Patri bit and any repetitions.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
A highly sought-after item is being offered at half price on ebay, not by me nor anyone I know. It's on a Buy-It-Now basis, so here's your chance:

The Prayer Book Office (1980, Howard Galley)
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Do ny shipmates know how to download an App for an Android mobile of the CW Daily Office contmeporary and BCP form? Is this possible?
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
The App for iPhone is called 'My C of E' and it has links to various things including the daily office in both CW and BCP forms. I presume there is a parallel version available for Android but I'm not sure.
 
Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :
 
There's an android app called 'Pocket Common Worship', but it only works with a data connection and essentially just shows the web versions of the services.

I think the iOS app is an official CofE one that actually includes the data locally.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
With Pocket Common Worship and Prayer, you can download the day's offices when you have wifi and save them. That way, whilst you can manage to use them with just a smidgen of 3G or whatever.

Thurible
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
The Smart Phone has finally allowed, at long bloody last, Offices to be ALL IN ONE BOOK (as it were), without the ridiculous fiddle of a prayer book, lectionary and bible.

With the exception of the LOTH; the 1928 Prayer Book and 1922 Readings combined; The American compilations such as the Daily Office Book and other slightly inadequate abridgements, it has been almost impossible to find this.

It was utterly beyond the understanding of the CofE litugical commission to realise that probably most people who consistently say the Daily Office do so solitary, and probably whilst travelling.

I once mentioned the inconvenience of Celebrating Common Prayer needing a separate bible, and was looked at by a certain Franciscan on the Liturgical Commission with to quote Orwell, 'dull, uncomprehending cow-like eyes'.
 
Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :
 
I may possibly have mis-represented the capabilities of the iPhone app.

Anyway, I have an even better option for Android.

Install an app called 'Offline Browser Pro'. It costs £2.50, but you need the pro version for the scheduled download feature.

Create entries for morning prayer and evening prayer.
The morning prayer url to use is http://daily.commonworship.com/daily.cgi?today_mp=1
Evening prayer is http://daily.commonworship.com/daily.cgi?today_ep=1

Then set up scheduled downloads for some time before you're likely to wake up. I've turned off 'Download only if WiFi is available'.

Now you have a pre-downloaded copy of both morning and evening prayer waiting for you when you wake up.

What the CofE really ought to do is to make the data available in an easily machine-mashable format and let people play about with it. Then people could write websites, apps or whatever with whatever features they want. But they seem too paranoid about losing book sales to allow people to pray in convenient ways.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
There is an excelllent download from Canada of the daily BCP order with the 1922 lessons and the days psalms aportioned as in the Prayer Book. It is also nicely presented.
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Do you have a link, pl?

Thurible
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Tonight's Compline will be the last Office streamed by the Community of St Mary the Virgin, Wantage.
Having prayed with them for 3 years plus I am feeling bereft at this loss . Not to mention daunted by the prospect of a search for a new Daily Office.

Naturally they will continue to be in my (our) prayers as they make their changes.

You may be interested in this.

Thurible
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Oh how kind of you, Thurible.

Actually, I am in touch with the Sisters of the Blessed Virgin Mary who, having been received into Rome (the Ordinariate) on New Year's Day, are now at Ryde on the Isle of Wight with the Benedictine Sisters there. They are setting themselves up liturgy-wise and doing all the other legal stuff for the new Order as well as looking for a new home. They will be returning to Wantage in a few weeks as a temporary measure.

Wish I was a multi-millionaire...I would set them up with everything. In the meantime I pray for them and for the Sisters left behind at the Community of S. Mary the Virgin.
 
Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
In reply to Leon, I use the Common Worship Daily Prayer site a lot. As well as my laptop I can get it on my Kindle Fire HD and my ipod (2nd generation touch). As far as I know I didn't need any special apps to get them.

I've also downloaded the pdf versions but prefer the online versions as it is less hassle than the pdf versions.

Here is the main page to access the online and pdf versions

And here
is the page to choose the service you want in either contemporary or traditional service.

I also have the three services linked on my blog and church website so each day the links update to show the services of the day.

I have just noticed there is now a kindle version on the first link. I haven't used that. I think I will experiment with that.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you were saying and this post is nonsense. I get easily confused with techie language.

There is something I have forgotten [Confused]

Oh yes, I am supposed to pray them. [Hot and Hormonal]
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
[Tangent]

I clicked on the links above and loved the moment when my tags read: waiting for Church of England

I'm sure there's a message there somewhere.

[/Tangent]
 
Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
I've just had a look at the Kindle versions of CW Daily Prayer and they seem very expensive. I can't think of any use I would have for them that can't met by the various free versions.
 
Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :
 
Zappa [Killing me]
 
Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
In reply to Leon, I use the Common Worship Daily Prayer site a lot. As well as my laptop I can get it on my Kindle Fire HD and my ipod (2nd generation touch). As far as I know I didn't need any special apps to get them.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood what you were saying and this post is nonsense. I get easily confused with techie language.


At the risk of continuing a tangent, yes you had misunderstood my (possibly rather obscure) point.

In my opinion, that web site isn't nearly good enough. My main evidence for this is the very small percentage of CofE churchgoers who use CW:DP.

Obvious things that I think should be available are:
The ability to set things up to chose from all the available options, and get a page that contains everything you want in your daily prayer, in the right order, with nothing else there.
An offline app for people who want to use it in a disorganized fashion without access to the internet.

However my real complaint is that the CofE has made it very difficult and illegal for an outsider to fix this by providing better sites/apps.
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
I don't know if this question should be posted here or in the Random Questions thread...

In MP, how do I know (or where do I look up) which canticles are appointed for the day? There doesn't seem to be anything obvious in the Kalendar, nor in the Lectionary.
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
I don't know if this question should be posted here or in the Random Questions thread...

In MP, how do I know (or where do I look up) which canticles are appointed for the day? There doesn't seem to be anything obvious in the Kalendar, nor in the Lectionary.

A great deal depends on the source of the service you're using.

If you're using the CofE 1662 order, or most of those derived from it in (eg,) Canada, the US, Australia, then the canticles are basically set with one alternative for each...and there's no rule as to which, when.

If you were to be using (which I'm sure you're not) the Canadian BAS, you'd turn to the section of the book that provides the text of the canticles and use the lists provided...lists of recommendations, not requirements.

So we need to know which Order of MP you're using, to discover whether or not there are recommendations about canticles.

John
 
Posted by Episcoterian (# 13185) on :
 
Thanks, John.

My usual starting point is the 1928 American BCP, which alludes to other Canticles being sometimes appointed (where?) in lieu of the Venite.

In the 1988 Brazilian BCP, it's up to the Officiant to choose between Venite, Jubilate or (during Eastertide) the Pascha Nostrum for the Invitatory. After the Lessons, any Canticle (or none at all) will do. There's a single Liturgy for the Daily Office, so it applies even to EP.

I'm also looking at the 1917 Lutheran CSB Matins, but it's most useful for the choral settings. It always has the Venite for the Invitatory, and either Te Deum or Benedictus after the Lessons, officiant's discretion.

The St. Bede's Breviary mentions a fixed table somewhere, which I just found in the 1979 BCP. That might settle it, but it'd be nice to know how this is handled in other jurisdictions!
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
The St. Bede's Breviary mentions a fixed table somewhere, which I just found in the 1979 BCP. That might settle it, but it'd be nice to know how this is handled in other jurisdictions!

Our parish uses the BCP 1979 table on p. 144, only sort of.

For the first canticle at Morning Prayer, we use the first canticle recommended in the table. For the second canticle, it's always #16, Benedictus.

The two canticles at Evening Prayer are always Magnificat and Nunc dimittis.

EXCEPTIONS: On Sundays and holy days, the morning canticles are #16 and #21 (Te Deum) in that order. I believe that in Lent and Advent we use the suggested first canticle (#14 and #11 respectively) and then #16 Benedictus.

So we never use #18, 19, or 20 in the office.
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
I don't know if this question should be posted here or in the Random Questions thread...

In MP, how do I know (or where do I look up) which canticles are appointed for the day? There doesn't seem to be anything obvious in the Kalendar, nor in the Lectionary.

I have used the tables before, but whenever there are options, I find it easier to simply alternate one after the other after the other. Or not. That's the fun!

Some books appoint different canticles per day. If I recall correctly, the New Zealand Prayer Book is like this.
 
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:


If you're using the CofE 1662 order, or most of those derived from it in (eg,) Canada, the US, Australia, then the canticles are basically set with one alternative for each...and there's no rule as to which, when.


Not quite true; the rubrics of the 1662 prescribe the Benedictus as the second canticle, excepting when it comes up in the NT lesson (or on the feast of St John Baptist's nativity).

My suspicion is that the Psalm canticles were supplied so that the Puritans could sing Psalms only, as they were wont to do. I'm not really sure what I base that on, though.
 
Posted by Antiphon (# 14779) on :
 
If anyone is interested a small pocket-sized edition of the 1961 Diurnale Romanum is available from the online shop of the Abbey of Le Barroux.

I have just received mine this morning. It is basically printed to the same format as the larger edition with which many people are familiar, but is small enough to fit in your jacket pocket and has what appears to be an imitation leather cover. It is roughly the same size as the Farnborough Abbey Monastic Diurnale
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
A question for C of E daily office knowing people.

If you just say one office per day what readings are you meant to use from the lectionary. There is such a choice!
 
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :
 
Would you not use the lections for the office which you are praying? If praying morning prayer, would you not use the morning prayer lections?
 
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
A question for C of E daily office knowing people.

If you just say one office per day what readings are you meant to use from the lectionary. There is such a choice!

I would suggest the actual choice is not that important. More important is that you make a choice and stick to it.
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
Ok. I just thought there was a rule about it. You see we have a set up with just one daily office sometimes morning sometimes evening.
 
Posted by Bos Loquax (# 16602) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
A question for C of E daily office knowing people.

If you just say one office per day what readings are you meant to use from the lectionary. There is such a choice!

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Ok. I just thought there was a rule about it. You see we have a set up with just one daily office sometimes morning sometimes evening.

A Daily Prayer page has this Official Guidance, which is not very restrictive:

http://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-worship/worship/texts/daily2/generalintro.aspx

quote:
How many readings might be read each day?

<snip>

¶ Those who pray only once a day may use just one of the tracks.

Of course, this page doesn't say "must" here, and it goes on to say, "There are many possible combinations."

Not that you were asking for suggestions, but I'd suggest following a course that makes the most pastoral sense.

For instance, if this communal office is likely to be the only office that day for most of the congregants (regular ones or visitors), my first suggestion would be to use one track continuously through the year (and using different tracks in different years).

If it so happens that the likely congregants have a strong office habit and are likely to pray the evening office elsewhere when your communal office is in the morning and vice versa, my first suggestion would be to use the appropriate track for the time of day.

And if it so happens that you have an even mix of both groups, flip a coin.

[ 21. February 2013, 02:36: Message edited by: Bos Loquax ]
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Ok. I just thought there was a rule about it. You see we have a set up with just one daily office sometimes morning sometimes evening.

Think of it as tapping into the ongoing cycle of morning and evening prayer. If you pray only one of these, there are others (in the church around the world) who are keeping things going by praying the offices you miss. Some people join in morning and evening every day; others join in when possible.

I've also sometimes prayed both the morning and evening psalms and lessons at Evening Prayer if I've missed Morning Prayer. Not often; just sometimes when I feel led to do that. But that's alone...I wouldn't burden everyone else with all of that if I were leading Evening Prayer in church.
 
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
I fancy getting hold of a book that gives some infos to the Saints and people commemorated in the CoE, or CiW. I think when I lived in England the book "A cloud of witnesses" was used in the cathedral I worked in, a red book. I can't find this, however. If the book had suggestions for readings that'd also be helpful.

Another thing, I fancy getting hold of a book of the Orthodox liturgy in both Russian and English. Does anyone by any chance have a recommendation?
 
Posted by Boadicea Trott (# 9621) on :
 
Rosa,

If you go here, you can access copies of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy in a variety of languages, including English/Church Slavonic and English/Russian.
(edited to add you may need to use Word Perfect to open some files on this site.)

Sorry I cannot help with the first question [Smile]

[ 24. February 2013, 18:58: Message edited by: Boadicea Trott ]
 
Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Rosa, you want this.

Thurible
 
Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 
Cheap copy available
here
 
Posted by *Leon* (# 3377) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bos Loquax:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Ok. I just thought there was a rule about it. You see we have a set up with just one daily office sometimes morning sometimes evening.

For instance, if this communal office is likely to be the only office that day for most of the congregants (regular ones or visitors), my first suggestion would be to use one track continuously through the year (and using different tracks in different years).

I seem to remember that the readings switch over between morning and evening prayer in different years, in which case if you stick with one track you end up getting all the readings for both tracks only it takes twice as long. And if you use different tracks in different years, you might end up using only half the readings. But I might have mis-remembered.
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
[Ultra confused]
 
Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Thanks a lot, Boadicea Trott and Thurible.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Shipmates wishing to own a cheap(er) version of the latin liturgy of the hours might be interested to read on. The paid version of Universalis (various electronic and portable platforms) now come with latin texts. I'm surprised by the work gone into this software - even the Office of Reading is provided for in Latin!
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
There is an excelllent download from Canada of the daily BCP order with the 1922 lessons and the days psalms aportioned as in the Prayer Book. It is also nicely presented.

I'd love to see this. Is there a link?
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
I was talking to a female friend today about the daily office.

She prefers non gender specific language for God. She asked me if I know of an office book which would favour or include at least in part such language for God.

I mentioned I thought Rev Jim Cotter had written one but I didn't know of any other.

Thought / suggestions, please.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I was talking to a female friend today about the daily office.

She prefers non gender specific language for God. She asked me if I know of an office book which would favour or include at least in part such language for God.

I mentioned I thought Rev Jim Cotter had written one but I didn't know of any other.

Thought / suggestions, please.

The best IMHO is that of the Order of St Helena (may they be blessed on this Feast of the Finding of the Holy Cross by St Helena). Information about ordering one of their two editions is
here. The "personal edition" is flexible in terms of which psalter schema one follows; the "monastic edition" is big and heavy because it has all the chant the Sisters need to sing the Offices.

The inclusivizing of the language is of high quality, was prayed through for several years before publication, and is very consistent.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
There is an excelllent download from Canada of the daily BCP order with the 1922 lessons and the days psalms aportioned as in the Prayer Book. It is also nicely presented.

I'd love to see this. Is there a link?
Just revisited this.

To my intense disappointment, I have noticed something wrong with the psalter. Personally, the greatest joy, boon, wonder of The Office, ANY Office, is the Coverdale Psalter.

The psalter on this App describes itself as Coverdale but isn't. There are a number of irritating differences. WHY? HOW COULD THEY.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Indeed. The poetic, quirky and endearing Coverdale psalms are just about the best bit of the BCP.....IMNSHO!

I recall the days in the Church Of My Yoof when, at ASB Evening Prayer, we used to read the psalms from the RSV Bible....... [Eek!]

Ian J.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
I quite understand that. The ASB psalter was ghastly. The CW was an improvement. Perhaps the BCP 1979 of TEC the best modern one.
 
Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

She prefers non gender specific language for God. She asked me if I know of an office book which would favour or include at least in part such language for God.

I'll definitely go for the ICEL Psalter. These psalms arranged in the 4 weeks schema of the Roman rite is published in Psalms for Morning and Evening Prayer . Alternatively, there is an abridged version of the Benedictine Office published as The Work of God: Benedictine Prayer .
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
Wee Worship Book from Iona.
Of course it may not be "Office-y" enough.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
There is this book. I am almost certain it is very closely related to the "Each Day and Each Night" that was published by WildGoose!

Given that it is almost certainly in inclusive language.

Jengie
 
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :
 
I bought Each Day and Each Night a few years ago and was really disappointed in it.
It was really lacking in depth and I felt a lot of the prayers were of doubtful historical use and authenticity.
I did give it away to a wee chapel in the end as I think it is nice, just not on a daily/all the time basis.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
I used it for about a year or so but I am pretty sure I augmented it, and I did not believe it was "Celtic" to start with.


Then I find I augment everything including the stuff I prepare myself.

Jengie

[ 04. May 2013, 19:18: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I quite understand that. The ASB psalter was ghastly. The CW was an improvement. Perhaps the BCP 1979 of TEC the best modern one.

Is that psalter available as a separate? That is to say can the psalter be bought as a book alone, without the rest of the stuff in TEC BCP?
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I quite understand that. The ASB psalter was ghastly. The CW was an improvement. Perhaps the BCP 1979 of TEC the best modern one.

Is that psalter available as a separate? That is to say can the psalter be bought as a book alone, without the rest of the stuff in TEC BCP?
Is it not the same one as in CCP?
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Done some googling and found that [url=http://www.osh.org/breviary.htmlthe Saint Helena Breviary and Psalter[/url] are available. These will be in inclusive language.

I use the Psalter (which can be got from Amazon) but not the Breviary.

Jengie
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Sorry for messing up code. My fault for being over confident.

It is corrected below.

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Done some googling and found that the Saint Helena Breviary and Psalter are available. These will be in inclusive language.



 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
I echo the sentiment of my sagacious shipmates. The St. Helena Breviary is an excellent text, and I say this as a person who likes traditional worship (as enshrined in the 1970s). I am not even a fan of gender-inclusive texts. That said, St, Helena is so well-done that I use it quite often.

Buy the cheap version that is easily available, unless you really want to chant everything and don't mind using seventeen or so bookmarks.
 
Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I quite understand that. The ASB psalter was ghastly. The CW was an improvement. Perhaps the BCP 1979 of TEC the best modern one.

Is that psalter available as a separate? That is to say can the psalter be bought as a book alone, without the rest of the stuff in TEC BCP?
Yes! See here, for example.

It's about the same size as my pocket BCP, but the text for the psalms is of course much larger. It includes a brief, three-page preface, then the 150 psalms. That's all!
 


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