Thread: Rite I or 1928ish TEC Anglo-Catholic Parishes Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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Can my fellow shippies help me identify TEC Anglo-Catholic parishes that either use 1979 Rite I or an accepted form of 1928 (e.g. '28/'79 hybrid with Anglo-Catholic accretions) as the basis for their principal Eucharist on Sundays and Holy Days?
I ask because some persons assert that Rite I inevitably turns into Rite II, so that use of the 1979 BCP generally be an evil thing, leading Anglo-Catholics down the road to ruin. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Rite I (with Anglo-Catholic accretions) Anglo-Catholic TEC parishes that immediately come to my mind include Church of the Advent, Boston; Ascension & St Agnes, Washington DC; Grace and St Peter's, Baltimore (I can't clearly recall, but the last of these struck me as rather 1928ish the only time I was there, about 5 years ago). St Clement's, Philadelphia is an example of a place that doesn't use enough of the BCP liturgy to really qualify, even when the Anglican canon from the American edition of the English Missal is being used. However, my old American Missal cum 1979 modifications parish of St Timothy's, Fort Worth would qualify (that was many years ago now, and the parish has largely fallen apart in the intervening years due to many factors, most recently defections to the Ordinariate).
So what other TEC Anglo-Catholic parishes have a principal mass based largely on the Rite I order in 1979?
Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on
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It was my impression that the folks who put together the Anglican Service Book (Church of the Good Shepherd, Rosemont PN) had done so specifically in order to consistently use Rite I for all services while following the 1979 BCP. So maybe anyone using that book could be added to your list?
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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Of the two Anglo-Catholic parishes in the Diocese of El Camino Real one of the them, St John's Chapel in Monterrey, uses the 1928 prayer book.
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on
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St John's in Newport, RI uses the 28BCP and is AC in orientation; same for St John's in Detroit (very Anglo-Catholic).
I know it is beside the point, but every bit as interesting to me is St. John's Savannah, GA, which is a 28BCP parish of a low-church orientation (maybe the only one of its type left in TEC). Their principal Sunday service is still Matins.
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on
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St. Mary's (moderately AC) and St. Paul's (very AC, but also quite a small parish), both in Staten Island, New York.
Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on
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Church of the Holy Communion, Charleston, SC, uses the Anglican Service Book, which is as noted above, a trad language version of the TEC BCP (with some additions, to be sure).
This is used for both Sunday masses, and for the daily mass.
The minor propers are sung from The English Gradual, as updated from various sources for the 3-year lectionary, but recast, when necessary, in trad language.
Music of the mass ranges from the (most Sundays) Willan from the hymnal to various modern choral settings, with occasional forays into Haydn, Mozart & Schubert.
Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on
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Last time I was there, St John's Norristown, PA used Rite I for the high mass and '28 for the low mass. As mentioned The Good Shepherd Rosemont does in the context of the ASB.
Certainly St Paul's K Street in DC uses Rite I for all their masses AFAIR. I think The Advent in Baltimore does as well.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Of the two Anglo-Catholic parishes in the Diocese of El Camino Real one of the them, St John's Chapel in Monterrey, uses the 1928 prayer book.
El Camino Real is one of the four dioceses that seceded from the Episcopal Church, so I don't think I'd count those parishes unless one or both were amongst those that chose to remain in TEC.
In addition to the ones other Shippies have mentioned, I myself forgot to mention one of the two major Chicago A-C shacks that I believe uses Rite I -- Ascention, I think it is? I always get the two parishes mixed up.
Oh yes, and I would include parishes using the Anglican Service Book in the list, since that is BCP-based.
[ 04. February 2013, 18:02: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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You are thinking about the diocese of San Joaquin which is in a different part of the state.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
You are thinking about the diocese of San Joaquin which is in a different part of the state.
Oh, sorry. You are quite right.
Posted by Planeta Plicata (# 17543) on
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I'm assuming the other Anglo-Catholic parish in the Diocese of El Camino Real is St Luke's Los Gatos, right? Do they use Rite II?
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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Correct. I have never been there on a day they offered mass and their website is devoid of the terms Rite1 and 2. By reading between the lines of what they do say I believe they offer both, with Rite 1 being the early morning offering.
Posted by Arpeggi (# 17487) on
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I think S. Ignatius of Antioch on the Upper West Side of Manhattan meets your criteria. They are Rite I with minor propers and Tridentine form.Though their service leaflet makes it seem that they use Rite II forms for a couple of prayers.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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Good to know that about St Ignatius, Manhaatan. Always wanted to go there when in NYC but it is rather far uptown and we seldom venture north of Midtown. Being traddie language guys we usually just go to the high but not quite A-C St Thomas Fifth Ave or else on some occasions do SMV Times Sq or the more MOTR Ascension on 5th Ave Downtown, despite both being Rite II. We don't care forResurrection, upper Midtown East.
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood, uses Rite I during Lent, Advent, Holy Week, and for major holy days.
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
In addition to the ones other Shippies have mentioned, I myself forgot to mention one of the two major Chicago A-C shacks that I believe uses Rite I -- Ascention, I think it is? I always get the two parishes mixed up.
Ascension uses Rite 2 for the principal Mass, but will use the Rite 1 Gloria (and Creed, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei). They use Rite 2 most of the time, except for the 8am, which is Rite 1.
Atonement is probably the other one you're thinking of. They use Rite 2 as well.
Chicago's Anglo-Catholicism is very much a Novus Ordo Catholicism. It's almost as if they were so genuinely concerned about the "Catholicism" part of Anglo-Catholicism that they had no choice but to change to the "new" order since Rome had done so!
[ 04. February 2013, 22:55: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
I think The Advent in Baltimore does as well.
Correct. And it doesn't look like the interim rector is going to fiddle with that.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood, uses Rite I during Lent, Advent, Holy Week, and for major holy days.
I find the practice of assigning Rite I to penitential seasons and using Rite II for Ordinary Time a typically MOTR peculiarity and rather yucky and inconsistent for Anglo-Catholics.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Ascension uses Rite 2 for the principal Mass, but will use the Rite 1 Gloria (and Creed, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei). They use Rite 2 most of the time, except for the 8am, which is Rite 1.
Yep, and the monthly Evensong and Benediction uses Rite I (which I attended yesterday). The Sung Mass at 9 on Sundays is similarly Rite II with the Rite I Ordinary; weekday Masses are all Rite II throughout. I find I have to sneak a peek at the celebrant's book when I'm serving at a Wednesday evening Mass, as singing the Rite I texts on Sunday is messing up my memory of the Rite II ones. Creator or maker? Things seen and unseen or visible and invisible?
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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Doesn't Ascension have ad orientem celebration for the high masses, or am I misinformed about that?
IME ad orientem tends to be coupled with Rite I, whilst Rite II goes along with v.p. The only exception I can think of this was during the 1970s-80s at Mount Calvary, Baltimore (now in the Ordinariate), where Rite I with Anglo-Catholic accretions was in use, at which time the rector had a free-standing stone altar installed on the pavement for westward facing celebration. Photos I have seen in more recent years indicate that this free-standing altar table was subsequently removed and that celebration reverted to the Victorian era, wedding cake style high altar, which the former rector had described to me as, "one of those Victorian altars that never really worked." Why it didn't "work" I'm unsure, although the altar steps looked rather narrow and the degree of ascent a bit steep (sacred ministers and servers losing their footing comes to mind).
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Planeta Plicata:
I'm assuming the other Anglo-Catholic parish in the Diocese of El Camino Real is St Luke's Los Gatos, right? Do they use Rite II?
St Luke's in the Hills? That's an REC parish these days.
ETA : Oh, never mind--I see there is a St Luke's in Los Gatos *and* a St Luke's Chapel in Los Gatos Hills. Confusing, that!
[ 05. February 2013, 16:55: Message edited by: Fr Weber ]
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Of the two Anglo-Catholic parishes in the Diocese of El Camino Real one of the them, St John's Chapel in Monterrey, uses the 1928 prayer book.
A friend of mine used to be rector at St John's. He was more "high & dry" than A-C, an appellation he would have rejected! I wonder if the parish has come up the candle since then?
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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Good question. My only knowledge about this particular group was based on their website and a couple of other pieces of info I picked up elsewhere.
Posted by LA Dave (# 1397) on
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St. Nicholas of Myra, Encino, in the Diocese of Los Angeles, is Rite I all the time. The Priest-in-Charge, Fr. Michael Cooper SCP, has definitely raised the candle in this parish.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Doesn't Ascension have ad orientem celebration for the high masses, or am I misinformed about that?
Yes, it's ad orientem at the high altar for the Sunday 8 a.m. Low Mass and for all Solemn Masses, whether on Sunday or a holy day. For the Sunday 9 a.m. Sung Mass and all other Low Masses, there's a freestanding altar that is rolled over from the side of the sanctuary. Looks good with its throw-over Laudian frontal. Looks good when it's not being used, too...looks like a side altar for private Masses (but isn't used for that).
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Doesn't Ascension have ad orientem celebration for the high masses, or am I misinformed about that?
Yes, it's ad orientem at the high altar for the Sunday 8 a.m. Low Mass and for all Solemn Masses, whether on Sunday or a holy day. For the Sunday 9 a.m. Sung Mass and all other Low Masses, there's a freestanding altar that is rolled over from the side of the sanctuary. Looks good with its throw-over Laudian frontal. Looks good when it's not being used, too...looks like a side altar for private Masses (but isn't used for that).
Here are some photos to illustrate this:
1. Solemn Mass ad orientem at High Altar
2. Freestanding altar stored at left side below painting
3. Freestanding altar being used - 9 a.m. Sung Mass on Sunday
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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LA Dave,
Back in the day, St. Nicholas, Encino was exclusively Rite I. In fact, their weekly LA Times advert stated, "Rite I is the right one."
Posted by LA Dave (# 1397) on
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I never saw that ad, but it reflects the parish.
I think that Father Cooper (a former law enforcement officer, like Bishop Bruno) is interested in reaffirming the A/C character of the parish, which is emphasized by the doors of the church, on which there is a bronze sculptural depiction of the seven sacraments, featuring the visage of the parish's founder, Fr. Harley Wright Smith.
Posted by KevinL (# 12481) on
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The Parish of St. Mary in Palms (Los Angeles) will likely be yucky and inconsistent this year during Lent.
[ 06. February 2013, 05:21: Message edited by: KevinL ]
Posted by Prester John (# 5502) on
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Sorry I'm not able to provide a link at this time but St. Paul's in Riverside, Illinois appears to be exclusively Rite 1 as well.
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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In my opinion what's yucky and inconsistent is Rite I liturgy but readings from a modern translation. St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood, is not guilty of that, and I trust neither is St. Mary in Palms. I have, howsever, witnessed it elsewhere.
Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Chicago's Anglo-Catholicism is very much a Novus Ordo Catholicism. It's almost as if they were so genuinely concerned about the "Catholicism" part of Anglo-Catholicism that they had no choice but to change to the "new" order since Rome had done so!
The only Rite I parish I can think of in Chicago is St Chrysostrom's, which still alternates Mattins as the main Sunday service.
Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on
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More along LSK's lines:
St Monica and St James, Capitol Hill and All Soul's, both in this diocese.
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
The only Rite I parish I can think of in Chicago is St Chrysostrom's, which still alternates Mattins as the main Sunday service.
That's probably it for the city. In Da Burbs, some parishes do a Penitential Rite I in Advent & Lent. I'd much rather a place did that than fracture the parish into the 8am faction and the 10am faction.
[ 06. February 2013, 22:51: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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Ah, yes. The 8:00am "reactionaries" and the 10:00am "trendies".
Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
More along LSK's lines:
St Monica and St James, Capitol Hill and All Soul's, both in this diocese.
Yes. I used to attend St. Monica and St. James when it was still just St. James.
What about the Anglican Parish of Christ the King in Georgetown?
http://anglicanparishofchristtheking.org/
The website says it is Rite I.
I used to walk past this church on the way to my hairdressers and was always quite curious about it.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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But are all these places strictly Anglo-Catholic?
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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Does "strict" permit a bit of yuckiness and inconsistency? Fr. Reid seems to think quite highly of St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood, in spite of its arguably being much less "strict" than S. Clement, Philadelphia.
Posted by sonata3 (# 13653) on
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Church of Our Saviour in Atlanta (Virginia-Highland neighborhood) used to be '28 (ad orientem) at the early service, Rite I (versus populum, with minor propers chanted and incense) at the latter. Fr. Tanghe, rector there for some time, left TEC to be priest for a group of Episcopal nuns who also left TEC to become Roman Catholic. The parish has remained in TEC, and I gather is still conservative liturgically, but is now willing to use ASB versions of Rite II Eucharistic Prayers.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Does "strict" permit a bit of yuckiness and inconsistency? Fr. Reid seems to think quite highly of St. Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood, in spite of its arguably being much less "strict" than S. Clement, Philadelphia.
I'm sure I'd appreciate St Thomas the Apostle, Hollywood as well, though I dislike seasonally changing from one rite to another (much less one eucharistic canon to another within Rite II). I am acquainted with Fr Ian Davies from his time as curate at All Saints Margaret Street, where he definitely brought some flamboyantly Anglo-Catholic colour to a parish which I love but which can be a bit staid in its way (though I think ASMS's version of Anglo-Catholic liturgy works very well indeed in the main).
My real point in starting this thread was to survey Shippies' knowledge of A-C parishes that have retained Rite I as the essence of their principal liturgies (understanding that is with the usual sorts of A-C accretions and ceremonial). Many seem to think that Rite I is disappearing in favour of Rite II, and I would tend to say this is true many places in MOTR parishes, as well obviously as in some A-C places such as St Mary the Virgin Times Square. However, it seems that Rite I in some version is hanging on in some of the most important A-C parishes.
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
More along LSK's lines:
St Monica and St James, Capitol Hill and All Soul's, both in this diocese.
Yes. I used to attend St. Monica and St. James when it was still just St. James.
Didn't the Frankenstein Parish of St. Ja'Monica's finally drive a big wooden stake through the heart of the old St. James liturgy?
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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To the best of my knowledge, both Advent, Boston, and Transfiguration, Manhattan, use Rite I at their High Mass.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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Yes, I mentioned Advent, Boston in my OP as being a Rite I parish, and certainly it is one of the most important A-C parishes in the country.
I believe I did recently hear second-hand that Transfiguration, Manhattan is Rite I. I have never been to the latter, as it's rather far uptown and not especially convenient to get to when my partner and I are in the City.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
To the best of my knowledge, both Advent, Boston, and Transfiguration, Manhattan, use Rite I at their High Mass.
Yes. I worked at the hospitality desk during the last American Guild of Organists' national convention here in Chicago. Advent's organist/choirmaster visited the desk to ask about Sunday services at nearby churches. When I told her our parish's Solemn High Mass was Rite II, she made a face as though she had smelled something awful, even before I could say we have the best choir and organist in the city and that the bits of the Ordinary not sung by the choir are in Rite I language. She didn't visit us on Sunday.
Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on
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Does anyone know of an instance of a church changing their principal mass TO a Rite I service? I've heard of several places going back to ad orientem, but what about going backto more traditional language? It seems to be lots of people would support such a thing, but few people have the courage to do it.
On a separate note, why do some people have such an immediately negative reaction when Rite I comes up? It can be quite beautiful, and when it comes down to it, it's really not all that different.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
On a separate note, why do some people have such an immediately negative reaction when Rite I comes up? It can be quite beautiful, and when it comes down to it, it's really not all that different.
I agree with you about Rite I, but the common objection is that Rite I language is stilted, old-fashioned, stuffy, and not like the language we would use were we to pray extemporaneously to God, and it holds God at arm's length.
Like you, I find the traditional language beautiful, and I think of it as an expansion of one's personal vocabulary of prayer to be able to pray in lofty, uplifted language as well as more direct, modern language. So I like Rites I and II both.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
On a separate note, why do some people have such an immediately negative reaction when Rite I comes up? It can be quite beautiful, and when it comes down to it, it's really not all that different.
Rite 1 in TEC is the equivalent of the C of E's old Rite B/CW 'Traditional' I believe. I say mass once a week at a church which uses this and it still grates on me rather. I can understand the desire to use the old Prayer Book, and accept it as a product of its time. The language is indeed beautiful but the theology (not to mention the politics) is not. To hack it about and even worse to write new texts in pastiche Tudor English strikes me as [a] pointless and [b] play-acting. It's the liturgical equivalent of fake half-timbering on a branch of Tesco. Why can't we be honest and address God in our own tongue? There is no reason to use crass or inelegant language: there are many poets of our own time who can write beautifully, and some of the Common Worship texts prove this.
I've tried to use some of the CW prefaces, for example, with the 'traditional' rite, and can't work out whether to try and 'tudorfy' them off the cuff or read them straight. It's mainly the 'you/thou' difference that is noticeable, but if you use the latter you are forced into all sorts of unnatural verb forms. What is worse still, and bordering on heresy IMHO, is to do as RSV does and use 'thou' for God and 'you' for individual humans.
Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on
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I won't try to speak to Common Worship because I don't know anything at all about that book, but the Episcopal Church's prayerbook has almost everything in Rite I, so there's blessedly little "Tudorifying" (great word).
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by BulldogSacristan:
I won't try to speak to Common Worship because I don't know anything at all about that book, but the Episcopal Church's prayerbook has almost everything in Rite I, so there's blessedly little "Tudorifying" (great word).
What has bothered some Rite I parishes is the psalter not being Coverdale (although the 1979 psalter was developed using the set of vocabulary that Coverdale used, for the most part...same word-bank but modern verb forms, for instance).
But there's the Anglican Service Book to fill in the gaps (and provide the marriage rite, pastoral services, etc.) in traditional English.
Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
More along LSK's lines:
St Monica and St James, Capitol Hill and All Soul's, both in this diocese.
Yes. I used to attend St. Monica and St. James when it was still just St. James.
Didn't the Frankenstein Parish of St. Ja'Monica's finally drive a big wooden stake through the heart of the old St. James liturgy?
I believe you are correct, sad to say.
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on
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quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
Church of Our Saviour in Atlanta (Virginia-Highland neighborhood) used to be '28 (ad orientem) at the early service, Rite I (versus populum, with minor propers chanted and incense) at the latter. Fr. Tanghe, rector there for some time, left TEC to be priest for a group of Episcopal nuns who also left TEC to become Roman Catholic. The parish has remained in TEC, and I gather is still conservative liturgically, but is now willing to use ASB versions of Rite II Eucharistic Prayers.
While i'm a member of St. Luke's in Atlanta, every so often i attend Our Saviour. In the last several years I've been at holy day high masses and weekday low masses and every time i've been there it has always been Rite 1.
Re A-C additions: They add the traditional pre-Novus Ordo proper psalm bits (introit, offeratory, etc.) and the (non-"secret" i.e. spoken or chanted out loud) prayer over the gifts and the postcommunion collect.
I noticed in the "low mass" booklet they use, rite 2 eucharistic prayers appear but i have never heard them actually used.
[ 08. February 2013, 02:17: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on
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quote:
Many seem to think that Rite I is disappearing in favour of Rite II, [/QB]
In Washington DC I can think of 8 parished that are Rite I at least at the principal Sunday service. Not all of those are Anglo-catholic (two committed AC, two or three cathicolish), but one certainly doesn't have to look very hard to find trad lang round here.
Posted by TE Brown (# 11920) on
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No one seems to have mentioned All Saints' Ashmont in Boston, which uses the ASB Rite 1 and the Hymnal 1940. It also maintains a men and boys' choir, which serves as a significant outreach to an at-risk community.
TEB
(edited for typo)
[ 08. February 2013, 23:33: Message edited by: TE Brown ]
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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Pretty much every Episcopal church I have ever known uses Rite I at least some of the time.
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
Sorry I'm not able to provide a link at this time but St. Paul's in Riverside, Illinois appears to be exclusively Rite 1 as well.
I had heard that too, Prester John, but a bit of poking around on their
website was quite illuminating. St Paul's does a Rite I from the Anglican Service Book at 8:00 a.m. (said Eucharist) and a Rite II Solemn Eucharist at 10:00. A peek at their photo albums shows they celebrate east-facing at a high altar for Rite I and west-facing at a free-standing altar for Rite II. A look at the many PDFs (mostly essays from the Rector) linked on their "Catholic FAQs" page leaves no doubt as to that parish's point of view on many matters liturgical, theological, historical, and equine (deceased variety).
Posted by jlav12 (# 17148) on
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What about non-Anglo-Catholic Rite 1/ 1928 places?
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
What about non-Anglo-Catholic Rite 1/ 1928 places?
Who cares? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Actually, it's just that A-C Rite I/'28 places are a bit of a hobby horse for me, because so many American Anglo-Catholics I know like to allege that the Rite I of that evil 1979 BCP inevitably turns into the hellish formularies of Rite II.
Posted by Quam Dilecta (# 12541) on
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To those who were born after 1960, the argument that modern-language liturgies are closer to the language of our extemporaneous personal prayers may seem plausible. To someone slightly older, it seems specious.
As a child, even though I worshiped in a non-liturgical Protestant church, I never heard anyone address God as "you". As a result, I have always addressed Him in private prayers with the older second-person pronouns. Even though I have subsequently participated in a good many Rite II liturgies, I have never been moved to update the language of my ex tempore prayers.
I would therefore suggest that those of who use "everyday" language in their private devotions do so because they have been exposed to such language through revised liturgies and Bible translations. For this reason, I am confident that a return to what some call "hieratic English" in public worship would in due course transform our personal prayers.
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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I have news for the souls that think we have to use Rite II because it's modern and understandable: people still can't understand it. Its reading level is considerably higher than the average American adult, and the Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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I was born long before 1960 and the idea of using archaic language in private or public prayer now seems bizarre. Maybe it didn't so much when everyone used it.
There does seem to be a pond difference here. I think it's only a minority of anglo-catholic churches in England use 'traditional' language rites (equivalent of TEC Rite 1). Probably because until recently the RCs were using the same texts as us for much of the liturgy, a-cs have felt more comfortable with modern language. Most MOTR and evangelical churches take it for granted. You are more likely to encounter Tudor English (apart from cathedral Choral Evensong) in remote country parishes or very establishment old-fashioned MOTR places.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I have news for the souls that think we have to use Rite II because it's modern and understandable: people still can't understand it. Its reading level is considerably higher than the average American adult, and the Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
I expect a higher level of literacy amongst Episcopalians!
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I have news for the souls that think we have to use Rite II because it's modern and understandable: people still can't understand it. Its reading level is considerably higher than the average American adult, and the Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
I expect a higher level of literacy amongst Episcopalians!
That's precisely what I tell them.
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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I'll take a chance and suggest that one reason for using Rite II may be the availability of some rather good modern language congregational Mass settings, not that there aren't a few perfectly good trad language settings. I especially like the Schubert/Proulx Mass. Am I way off base in this thinking?
[ 09. February 2013, 21:19: Message edited by: ldjjd ]
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I'll take a chance and suggest that one reason for using Rite II may be the availability of some rather good modern language congregational Mass settings, not that there aren't a few perfectly good trad language settings. I especially like the Schubert/Proulx Mass. Am I way off base in this thinking?
Yes. The Schubert setting is slow and airy. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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My question at the end was not intended to relate to the Schubert/Proulx Mass but to my thinking that the wide availability of modern language Mass settings may have contributed to the use of Rite II in some A-C parishes.
Nevertheless, I think I like the Schubert/Proulx because it is slow and airy.
[ 09. February 2013, 21:51: Message edited by: ldjjd ]
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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If Healy Willan is good enough for Our Blessed Lord, it's good enough for me!
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
Whaddathey say when you lead Rite I prayers from the 1979 BCP?
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Roman Catholics at this seminary of mine frequently tell me it sounds Ye Oldde Schoole whenever I lead prayers from the BCP.
Whaddathey say when you lead Rite I prayers from the 1979 BCP?
They think he's reading Beowolf, no doubt.
Posted by BenjaminS (# 13224) on
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Episcopal Church of the Blessed Sacrament, Placentia in the Diocese of Los Angeles uses Rite I. When I was a parishoner there a few years ago, they would switch to Rite II for anything that didn't have a Rite I version in the BCP--Baptisms, Easter Vigil, etc.
Posted by ldjjd (# 17390) on
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All Saints, San Diego, seems to be emphatically Rite I. They make it clear in the third sentence of their website home page close on the heels of a welcome.
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, it's just that A-C Rite I/'28 places are a bit of a hobby horse for me, because so many American Anglo-Catholics I know like to allege that the Rite I of that evil 1979 BCP inevitably turns into the hellish formularies of Rite II.
This short article (pdf), found on the "Catholic FAQs" page of the St Paul's Riverside (IL) parish to which I linked above, seems to explain that particular POV. It sounds a bit legalistic/conspiracy-theorist to me.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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That's a very belaboured explanation! I don't think I should enjoy the atmosphere at that parish, if the essay was any indicator of the prevailing zeitgeist. I'm very much a Rite I person, but I don't perceive liturgical plots lurking everywhere.
Posted by LA Dave (# 1397) on
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Healey Willan's Missa Sancta Maria Magdalena may be beloved of the Lord, but the Dirndlmesse (AKA Schubert/Proulx) is an abomination.
Posted by Iakovos (# 623) on
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A little late to this thread, but my home church, Trinity, in the Village of Ossining NY uses Rite 1 as its principal service.
www.trinityossining.org
Posted by Lymasa (# 11397) on
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St. Mary's in Burlington NJ uses Rite I consistently- also the 1940 hymnal. And the women in the choir wear beanies. . .
www.stmarysburlington.org
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
To those who were born after 1960, the argument that modern-language liturgies are closer to the language of our extemporaneous personal prayers may seem plausible. To someone slightly older, it seems specious.
As a child, even though I worshiped in a non-liturgical Protestant church, I never heard anyone address God as "you". As a result, I have always addressed Him in private prayers with the older second-person pronouns. Even though I have subsequently participated in a good many Rite II liturgies, I have never been moved to update the language of my ex tempore prayers.
I would therefore suggest that those of who use "everyday" language in their private devotions do so because they have been exposed to such language through revised liturgies and Bible translations. For this reason, I am confident that a return to what some call "hieratic English" in public worship would in due course transform our personal prayers.
Taking that to its logical end, why not go all the way back to Latin?
I too was born before 1960. I was raised on Tridentine Latin masses as well as the 1928 BCP. But I was happy that the liturgy a la the Novus Ordo and the 1979 BCP was in "contemporary" English because that is what is spoken in the Anglophone society of which I am a part. And in my personal praying it is natural for me to use contemporary language.
That said, I have no problem with "traditional" English and I appreciate its beauty.
To each one's own with all respect and love (hippy that I guess I am ).
Posted by PD (# 12436) on
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The sort of Anglo-Catholics I grew up with used modern language for the Mass and traditional language for sung MP and EP. Weekday MP and EP tended to be ML.
In the USA there seems to be no strong move towards Rite II on the part of Anglo-Catholics. I have a theory that the hardshell A/C places tend to stick with the Missal with minimal concessions to Rite I, quite a lot seem to be Rite I with added Catholic bits with the odd Rite II Mass (usually to appease the PTBs) and some are predominately or all Rite II.
My impression is that Rite II is a little more common in the Midwest (former Biretta Belt) than on the East Coast, but that is purely subjective. I suspect the Midwest has a bit less of a Merrie England subtext to its Anglo-Catholicism which, like the English variety, makes it more likely that it is going to conform to the norms exhibited by "Big Sis."
In my experience here in the Southwest, the Rite I free zones are likely to be 'MOTR' rather than High or Anglo-Catholic. My own preference tends to be for traditional language, but a simpler ceremonial. That is probably because I am a product of the change over period.
PD
[ 21. February 2013, 14:30: Message edited by: PD ]
Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on
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quote:
My impression is that Rite II is a little more common in the Midwest (former Biretta Belt) than on the East Coast, but that is purely subjective.
That is my experience as well. The general idea is that Biretta belt Anglo-Catholicism is of a more Novus Ordo flavor (we pride ourselves on doing the NO 'better than the Catholics'), while East Coast Anglo-Catholicism is both older and more liturgically advanced. There are always exceptions, of course, but you won't find nearly as many Missal or Anglican Service Book parishes in the Midwest as out east.
[ 21. February 2013, 15:21: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
Posted by Greek Catholic (# 12930) on
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Christ Church, New Haven, CT uses Rite I at the (liturgical) east facing high altar for the principal Mass on Sundays and holy days. There is also a Rite I low Mass early on Sunday mornings in the Lady chapel (also ad orientem), and a sung Mass Rite II on a free standing altar (versus populum) in the crossing outside the screen between the two Rite I Masses. Though occasionally this Rite II Mass will be said at the high altar with the congregation in the choir stalls. Weekday Masses are also in the chapel and are Rite I or II depending on the day, but always ad orientem. The daily offices, either morning prayer or evening prayer, are also Rite I.
Posted by LA Dave (# 1397) on
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Christ Church New Haven features a wonderful choir and organist, Tom Murray, who is University Organist at Yale and one of the finest proponents of the Romantic organ repertoire.
On a sadder note, St. Nicholas of Myra Church, Encino, California, one of the few Rite I parishes on the West Coast, recently disbanded its choir and is currently without an organist. It is hoped that this is a temporary situation. Apparently, financial pressures are to blame.
Posted by Levavi (# 14371) on
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I offer this list of parishes (all on the US East Coast) that in my direct experience are intentionally Anglo-Catholic AND offer Rite I (or another version of "traditional language") at their principal Sunday Mass, if not at all services. Even among parishes merely along the East Coast, I'm sure this is far from comprehensive. Please note I have left off parishes that are somewhere in the vaguer High Church category (not that there's anything wrong with those places):
St. Stephen's, Providence, Rhode Island
St. John the Evangelist, Newport, Rhode Island
Christ Church, New Haven, CT
Church of the Advent, Boston
All Saints Ashmont, Boston
St. Ignatius of Antioch, NYC
Transfiguration, NYC
Resurrection, NYC
St. Clement's, Philadelphia
Good Shepherd, Rosemont, PA
Grace and St. Peter's, Baltimore
St. Paul's K Street, DC
Ascension & St. Agnes, DC
Holy Communion, Charleston, SC
Our Saviour, Atlanta
St. Paul's, Savannah, GA
Again, I'm sure there are many more examples!
Posted by Fr. M.Tucker (# 17612) on
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My parish, Christ Church in Bordentown, NJ, uses Rite I w. some Missal and the ASB where the 79 Book doesn't provide a traditional-language option. Offices and Masses daily (except Mondays), Rosary on Wednesdays.
Posted by PD (# 12436) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I was born long before 1960 and the idea of using archaic language in private or public prayer now seems bizarre. Maybe it didn't so much when everyone used it.
There does seem to be a pond difference here. I think it's only a minority of anglo-catholic churches in England use 'traditional' language rites (equivalent of TEC Rite 1). Probably because until recently the RCs were using the same texts as us for much of the liturgy, a-cs have felt more comfortable with modern language. Most MOTR and evangelical churches take it for granted. You are more likely to encounter Tudor English (apart from cathedral Choral Evensong) in remote country parishes or very establishment old-fashioned MOTR places.
I am t'other way about. I was born at the end of the 1960s and use old language in private prayer. Part of the "problem" is that I grew up in the rural North of England so thee and thou - more accurately, the universal "tha" - was still in use in daily speech.
PD
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr. M.Tucker:
My parish, Christ Church in Bordentown, NJ, uses Rite I w. some Missal and the ASB where the 79 Book doesn't provide a traditional-language option. Offices and Masses daily (except Mondays), Rosary on Wednesdays.
Welcome aboard, Fr M
Zappa
Ecclesiantickle host
Posted by PD (# 12436) on
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What's Blessed Sacrament, Placentia, CA up to these days? They were "Rite 1 with bells on" the last time I talked with one of their clergy. They may or may not have been Rite Two on a Satuday then, but I think that was about it.
Thankfully, +Bruno has always been pretty happy about letting them fly below the radar. Actually shouldn't that be above for an Anglo-Catholic parish?
PD
[ 02. April 2013, 19:58: Message edited by: PD ]
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Part of the "problem" is that I grew up in the rural North of England so thee and thou - more accurately, the universal "tha" - was still in use in daily speech.
PD
Interesting. I grew up in a working class family in West (now North) Yorkshire and 'thee-thou' was never used, except by our Lancastrian relations. Maybe it was a bit of aspirational class consciousness on the part of my parents.
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