Ship of Fools: The inevitable Papal election (liturgy) thread

Thread: The inevitable Papal election (liturgy) thread Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

With the election of a Latin America Jesuit to the Chair of St. Peter, there are bound to be ramifications for the worship of the Roman Catholic church in the Vatican and around the world. I understand that the more 'trad' fringe are already fearing the worst, whilst others are happy at the prospect of a bit of the glitz-and-scarlet-shoes being downplayed.

How do people think the worship and style of worship and liturgy will be impacted? For my part I suspect that Francis I will leave the trad fringe to their own devices but will certainly not make the 'reform of the reform' a priority. While I am liking his outspoken approach to tackling poverty and inequality, as someone who spends a lot of time in Italy and is exposed to a good deal of attempted liturgy I'd be sorry if the importance of worship was entirely forgotten by the new Holy Father!

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

To throw a tangent straight away, at least there will be, it seems, no dead foxes, given Pope Francis' Erskine-free zone this morning (OZ-time), consistent with his outspoken abhorrence of cruelty to animals... though perhaps the Erskine papal thingy beloved of his predecessor isn't a liturgical garment as such ...

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
To throw a tangent straight away, at least there will be, it seems, no dead foxes, given Pope Francis' Erskine-free zone this morning (OZ-time), consistent with his outspoken abhorrence of cruelty to animals... though perhaps the Erskine papal thingy beloved of his predecessor isn't a liturgical garment as such ...

Ermine, probably? [Biased]

The skin of same?

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

The ermines must be rejoicing !

Comments on The New Liturgical Movement are not functioning and Rorate Caeil is something to be seen.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

The traditionalist Catholic blogosphere is breaking as we speak. Many have expressed the hope (or at least the probability) that Francis will die soon. What a miserable bunch of human beings.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
The traditionalist Catholic blogosphere is breaking as we speak. Many have expressed the hope (or at least the probability) that Francis will die soon. What a miserable bunch of human beings.

But then comes the news that he set up an Extraordinary Form Mass location within 48 hours of the issuance of Summorum Pontificum; this makes him sound much less against the EF than previously thought.

Some traditional blogs have posted a video of him in procession at a charismatic group's Mass, apparently to elicit gasps of horror. Looked rather ordinary to me; song in Spanish with a few people raising hands. Seems an archbishop does have to attend events that may or may not be in his preferred style, so the video says nothing to me about him.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

Agreed, Oblatus. If Ratzinger had been ruling a diocese immediately before his election (he had not been a diocesan bishop since 1982, when he left Munich), he probably would have overseen some liturgical 'oddities' as well.

The fact is that Pope is not, at least outwardly, a traditionalist in terms of liturgics. But we really don't have any idea how he is disposed toward liturgical tradition generally, or how his views and practice may change now that he is Pope (people do change, after all, and Rome is not Buenos Aires). We won't know anything for a long time, and it is probably best not to read too much into anything that happens for a little while.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Also - as a Jesuit - surely if the Pope had told him to provide the extrodinary form of the mass, his vows would oblige him to do so sharpish. Regardless of what he thought about it ? So may not tell us much about what he will do next.

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Also - as a Jesuit - surely if the Pope had told him to provide the extrodinary form of the mass, his vows would oblige him to do so sharpish. Regardless of what he thought about it ? So may not tell us much about what he will do next.

Sorry for an odd tangent, but as a Jesuit and an archbishop is he under the authority of the Black Pope as well as the Sovereign Pontiff?

[ 14. March 2013, 18:21: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

Good question, CC. I do not know what the specific contours of the relationship between a religious bishop and his order would be. I have asked it in Purg.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

There is a Benedictine expression that we should all keep in mind:

quote:
He looks as confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
There is a Benedictine expression that we should all keep in mind:

quote:
He looks as confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.

He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.

Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today [Snigger]

. I wonder how long he will last.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

I hope he stays stark and sensible. The liturgical whores want reproaching IMO (that includes a bunch of pissy Anglo-Catholics, those of my own tribe who need a good dose of liturgical sensibility).

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.

He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.

Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today . I wonder how long he will last.

For someone not RC, Triple Tiara could you give examples of his rubrical inaccuracy and in what waysit was minimalist.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

[Hot and Hormonal]

I hate to think I am examining the Pope for his Liturgy grades, and this is really going to mark me out as a liturgical anorak! But since this is Ecclesiantics and you did ask...... [Big Grin]

The starkness was in the style, which was quiet, reserved and intensely personal. He said, rather than sang, everything. He preached from the lectern rather than the chair, with mitre off. He took his own mitre off, rather than having a flunky do it, as is the way with the grander prelates.

The rubrical shortcomings I noticed were minor, but nevertheless there: he was too quick to replace the paten on the altar after the doxology, not waiting for the Great Amen to end. This is a frequent error by many priests. By contrast I recall poor JPII in Johannesburg after the Synod for Africa in about 1994/5 when they sang an interminable Great Amen (it's become popular worldwide: "Masithi, Amen, siyakudumisa.... Amen, Bawo. Amen Bawo. Amen siyakudumisa") It's long enough in one language, but South Africa has several languages and the tune fits them all! So it gets repeated over and over and over in different languages. After the first one (Zulu) ended, JPII started to replace the paten on the altar when they struck up in Sotho. So he raised the paten a little again. Same thing again at the end, when he started to lower the paten they struck up in English - and then Afrikaans!!!! The Pope looked thoroughly fed up by the end of it. I was very amused.

Pope Francis also did not genuflect after the words of institution and opted for a bow, which was rather odd.

But these are refinements rather than major issues. His Mass was very prayerful I thought: attentive and intense.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

OK, goodon him, I say. I'm so tired of liturgical pissiness in my own bit of my own ecclesial community that I'd like to think Pope Francis might function as a kind of essential corrective. As to not singing certain bits, well I do hope the Sursum Corda and Preface were sung. And the absence of the genuflections after the greater elevations would bother me a bit, though bows are very English Use (aka Sarum). [Axe murder]

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Well, being Supreme Pontiff and an absolute monarch should count for something, like being able to say what you want at the Urbi et Orbi Address and having Mass the way you want it.

I guess I'm a little confused about Jesuits and their supposed slackness. The RC priest in my town is a Jesuit, he wears his cassock to the post office in the fall, winter and spring, clericals for summer. He owns and wears a biretta to go with said cassock.

The locals say (in approving tones) that there hasn't been such a visible Catholic presence in town since the Grey Nuns left.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Francis I is 76 - perhaps he has the difficulties common to many his age in many genuflections? He certainly did reverence the MBS with his bow.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

Former NYC archbishop, 82 i think, said in an interview that he thought the future pope seemed to him quite agile. Some folks in their 70s are in better shape than some folks in their 50s.

Regarding bowing to the MBS, maybe the new pope is a Dearmerite at heart. [Big Grin]

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
But then comes the news that he set up an Extraordinary Form Mass location within 48 hours of the issuance of Summorum Pontificum; this makes him sound much less against the EF than previously thought.

It didn't last long:

http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.ie/2013/03/an-apology-to-rorate-caeli-and.html

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:

Regarding bowing to the MBS, maybe the new pope is a Dearmerite at heart.

Or maybe at the age of 76 he needs to look after his knees! [Sorry, I missed Gee D's comment saying the same thing]

I thought his sermon was superb... and despite my rudimentary Italian I understood nearly every word. Incidentally I suppose Italian might count as his first language since both his parents were from Turin... though it depends upon what they generally spoke at home.

[ 15. March 2013, 10:50: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

I shouldn't have specified - just noting what I noted. As I said, it's just fine tuning in my book.

I don't think there's anything wrong with his knees - he spent quite a lot of time on them earlier in the day in Sta Maria Maggiore.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

I thought his sermon was superb... and despite my rudimentary Italian I understood nearly every word. Incidentally I suppose Italian might count as his first language since both his parents were from Turin... though it depends upon what they generally spoke at home.

On this note, I am reliably informed that he grew up speaking Astiacci (sp?), a dialect specific to the Asti Province from which his parents had emigrated. He only learnt formal Italian much later for ecclesiastical purposes. His accent is apparently quite pleasing, however - 'he sounds like a grandad' was how it was put to me.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I don't think there's anything wrong with his knees - he spent quite a lot of time on them earlier in the day in Sta Maria Maggiore.

But genuflecting is a quick action compared to kneeling.

Depends what type of arthritis he has.

Posted by Jon in the Nati (# 15849) on :

Apparently, at his audience this morning with the Cardinals, Pope Francis nearly took a nosedive while descending the steps from his chair. Additionally, some have noted that he needed a bit of assistance yesterday during mass in the Sistine Chapel.

The guy's legs/knees/hips/etc. may not be in the greatest shape ever. I know priests younger than him who can't really genuflect, or save it only for certain occasions because it is difficult. But he has no obligation to discuss the condition of his lower body with us, and I'm sure he will continue to do whatever he needs to do.

[ 15. March 2013, 17:08: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]

Posted by Sarum Sleuth (# 162) on :

Maybe he realises that genuflecting when behind the altar just looks plain daft? And if he doesn't have a specially good singing voice, it makes sense to say everything.

I never thought the day would come when I find myself defending the liturgical practice of the Bishop of Rome.......

SS

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Well, with a stark Jesuit as Pope, there goes any chance of seeing the Triple Tiara in action during this papacy, it's yearly appearance on St. Peter's statue notwithstanding.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
And if he doesn't have a specially good singing voice, it makes sense to say everything.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that His Holiness is tone deaf.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I don't suppose having one lung helps.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Anyone know? Is the enthronement mass going to be on UK television?

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Anyone know? Is the enthronement mass going to be on UK television?

On BBC1 from 8.15am, apparently.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

In the US I'm sure EWTN will be carrying it, live and repeat, though unless one has more than basic cable they would be out of luck (at least in Atlanta).

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Anyone know? Is the enthronement mass going to be on UK television?
On BBC1 from 8.15am, apparently.

Thanks - but - what time is the actual mass?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.

He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.

Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today . I wonder how long he will last.

Minimalist ? Cardinals in golden robes celebrating in the Sistine chapel, golden vessels, golden cross ?

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Thanks - but - what time is the actual mass?

Mass starts at 9.30.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Minimalist is a design feature not a comment on lack of quality or expense.

I know that I have seen the "Presbyterian"* chapel at Dunham Massey. White washed walls, plain benches (of the best quality English Oak), plain dark blue curtains (in the best quality velvet), the plate, cup and bowl are of limited adornment, I think just an inscription (but with high quality precious metal). The cloths used plain (top quality pure Irish Linen). You get the picture.

Yes this Reformed Christian is aesthetically more "at home" among the minimalist religious than in your average parish mass.

Jengie

* In scare quotes because though that is the tradition that it comes from, who ever heard of a Presbyterian private chapel South of the Border.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

Here we are my fellow Ecclesiantics: the liturgy for Tuesday. Strangely there doesn't appear to be any liturgical dancers, folk groups or crass hymns. I do hope Cardinal Mahoney doesn't find it too trying.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

It appears there will be singing involved.

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Here we are my fellow Ecclesiantics: the liturgy for Tuesday. Strangely there doesn't appear to be any liturgical dancers, folk groups or crass hymns. I do hope Cardinal Mahoney doesn't find it too trying.

Wot, no flags!

Well, I suppose it is only a warm-up for the big event on Thursday. [Biased]

And I do Like the BBC's take on it here, where they refer to Anglicanism and Catholicism as "Christianity's two great churches". So much for the beardy-weirdies from the east.

[ 17. March 2013, 09:48: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

They always time these things for when most of us are at work (or in bed depending on which continent you're on). I'd have liked to see this.

[ 17. March 2013, 09:55: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
They always time these things for when most of us are at work (or in bed depending on which continent you're on). I'd have liked to see this.

I don't know where you are, Orphalese, but there may be repeat broadcasts (as noted above i think that will be the case where i am -- Atlanta.) Also perhaps the Internet?

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Internet's out because of bandwidth, but they might have the highlights on the news.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Here we are my fellow Ecclesiantics: the liturgy for Tuesday. Strangely there doesn't appear to be any liturgical dancers, folk groups or crass hymns. I do hope Cardinal Mahoney doesn't find it too trying.

Thank you. I look forward to watching it. Missa de angelis always makes me cry. lovely.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
And I do Like the BBC's take on it here, where they refer to Anglicanism and Catholicism as "Christianity's two great churches". So much for the beardy-weirdies from the east.

As an Anglican, yuck, yuck, yuck. Not just ignoring the Orthodox, the Lutherans, the Reformed, the Methodists, the Pentecostals and all those fast growing evangelical third world bodies...

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I think we could file that with "Fog in the channel; continent cut off."

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

Everything we've heard about the ermine is (allegedly) true. Nice story here:

quote:
[T]he Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

"No thank you, Monsignore," Pope Francis is reported to have replied. "You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!"

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I think we could file that with "Fog in the channel; continent cut off."

No wonder that the English think they are soft and cuddly and can't understand why other nationals think they are smug and arrogant.

Like liberal Christians who think it is wonderful to have a national church, without realizing the UK doesn't have a national church, and the bits that aren't England have other Christian bodies independent of the C of E.

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

I note that Pope Francis retained Benedict's practice of six candles and a crucifix on the altar at the Church of St Ann this morning.

Benedict always had the candles on the front of the altar; Francis has them staggered along the side. Is there some mystical meaning in one way or the other or is it simply a matter of preference?

Posted by Edgeman (# 12867) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.

He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.

Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today . I wonder how long he will last.
Minimalist ? Cardinals in golden robes celebrating in the Sistine chapel, golden vessels, golden cross ?

Yeah but he said mass facing the wrong direction, among other things.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Possibly, but that is like describing opera as plainsong on the grounds that the tenor ad libbed a phrase in second recitative.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
Yeah but he said mass facing the wrong direction, among other things.

Actually, he faced east. If he had his back to the Cardinals, he would be facing west.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Everything we've heard about the ermine is (allegedly) true. Nice story here:

quote:
[T]he Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

"No thank you, Monsignore," Pope Francis is reported to have replied. "You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!"

Scuttlebutt. I no more believe that His Holiness said that than I believe the moon is made of cream cheese. He is a man of immense solicitude, kindness and patience. The remark is simply too rude and too abrupt to be credible. The journos who are recycling it have been had and so have you.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Is it possible that the Holy Father might have said something along these lines in reference to the actual 'carnivale', as in the period prior to Lent - i.e. saying that he wouldn't wear a festal garment at this time? The statement, as reported, seems unbelievable for a man who has been a senior Catholic bishop for many years, but I wonder if there may be some kernel of truth that has caused the story to originate or spread?

(It could just be an urban myth of course - I am just speculating here!)

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
Yeah but he said mass facing the wrong direction, among other things.
Actually, he faced east. If he had his back to the Cardinals, he would be facing west.

Yehbut, yehbut, he faced liturgical west, innit? Versus populum, innit?

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Is it possible that the Holy Father might have said something along these lines in reference to the actual 'carnivale', as in the period prior to Lent - i.e. saying that he wouldn't wear a festal garment at this time? The statement, as reported, seems unbelievable for a man who has been a senior Catholic bishop for many years, but I wonder if there may be some kernel of truth that has caused the story to originate or spread?

(It could just be an urban myth of course - I am just speculating here!)

How interesting, I would never have thought of that.

Whatever the ermine was dispensed with, and it is said the red shoes have gone. These are small but significant liturgical changes in my view.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
but I wonder if there may be some kernel of truth that has caused the story to originate or spread?

(It could just be an urban myth of course - I am just speculating here!)

Well, judging by the beeb coverage, the press had been briefed to expect him to wear a red mozetta and he didn't. Also the white mozetta he did wear didn't quite colour match the rest of his outfit - and he took longer to come out than expected, so I wonder if he declined politely and then they had to hustle to find him a white one.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

Um, he didn't wear a mozetta at all. The little shoulder-cape attached to his cassock is not a mozetta.

I am not inclined to believe the story either. Only the Pope and Marini would have been there - which one of them has told the story?

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

Sounds like a 'let them eat cake' thing. You know, that thing everyone knows Marie Antoinette is famous for saying, but which she never actually said? There'll probably be a biographer futilely de-mythologizing the 'carnival cape quip' of Francis I, in future centuries.

Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :

I'm pretty much a fan of "Reform of the Reform" but I think a lot of the more extreme trads are becoming hysterical
The Masses I have seen the Pope celebrate over the past few days have been reverent and lovely (even without chanting from the Pope etc)
Even the Sistine Choir seems to have toned down the vibrato They actually sang a lovely "Tu es Petrus" for the Sistine Mass
You will have to worry when he brings guitars and bongo drums into St Peter's (and there are some crazy modernists who would probably love it) I don't see this Pope doing that. We shouldn't panic over less then 6 candles and a chasuble without ermine trimming.
We should be concerned with adlibbing, made up Mass Canons, sermons with dodgy theology. Not the tat

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Possibly, but that is like describing opera as plainsong on the grounds that the tenor ad libbed a phrase in second recitative.

If we push the theatrical analogies a bit further, I'd say it's more like the Birmingham rep's 1923 Cymbelline, the production that reintroduced modern dress to top-flight Shakespeare companies. Still Shakespeare? Of course! A rather dramatic shift? Yes.

The church teaches that "noble simplicity" is what we're to strive for in the liturgy. Except for "distracting noises off" (as they were once described in this august forum), the history of liturgy after the Second Vatican Council is one of seeking the meaning of this phrase. Pope Francis looks set to be making a major contribution to that conversation: one that puts a renewed accent on simplicity. Will papal liturgies cease being papal liturgies? By no means! Will we see some rather dramatic shifts (if we have an eye for drama)? I think so, yes.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Possibly, but in the meanwhile the audience has seen Pinter.

Posted by angelicum (# 13515) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Possibly, but that is like describing opera as plainsong on the grounds that the tenor ad libbed a phrase in second recitative.
If we push the theatrical analogies a bit further, I'd say it's more like the Birmingham rep's 1923 Cymbelline, the production that reintroduced modern dress to top-flight Shakespeare companies. Still Shakespeare? Of course! A rather dramatic shift? Yes.

The church teaches that "noble simplicity" is what we're to strive for in the liturgy. Except for "distracting noises off" (as they were once described in this august forum), the history of liturgy after the Second Vatican Council is one of seeking the meaning of this phrase. Pope Francis looks set to be making a major contribution to that conversation: one that puts a renewed accent on simplicity. Will papal liturgies cease being papal liturgies? By no means! Will we see some rather dramatic shifts (if we have an eye for drama)? I think so, yes.

How interesting.

I always assumed that the noble simplicity aimed primarily at the words and structure of the Mass itself - so compared to the Eastern rites, the Latin Rite liturgy is much sparser. No celebrating Annunciation and Good Friday on the same day, etc. Instead of 2 confiteors, we say 1 confiteor.

Your suggestion that the simplicity should be used in the ars celebrandi as well seems to fit - but not have borne out surely when you consider the ad libs, and occasionally very long and preachy bidding prayers, etc.

I wonder if there is indeed a case for the Papal Mass to really showcase what noble simplicity really is - I'm guessing in the style of Le Barroux, or maybe the Cistercian style of liturgy.

So minimal lace but really high quality albs, no flowers definitely, and no organ and polyphony too.

It would look and feel very monastic I'm guessing. Only plainchant, minimal incense, no more offertory procession, no more trumpets etc, fewer concelebrants, mitre simplex only, and certainly no more altar frontals.

It'd resemble most the Papal Ash Wednesday Mass at Santa Sabina, or the Good Friday Liturgy at St Peter's (minus the polyphony) I think. Very austere and very noble in its simplicity. I think we have been moving in the right direction - no one can certainly call Abp Marini's masses noble simplicity for example, perhaps Mgr Guido Marini's are closer - i.e. more silence and recollection, fewer additions to the Mass itself (for example the consistory is held outside Mass), more plainchant. I wonder who can bring us to that next level of even 'purer' noble simplicity.

[ 18. March 2013, 18:49: Message edited by: angelicum ]

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Who read The Gospel at the Inaugural Mass just now?
The most amazing stole!

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

That was a Greek Catholic deacon. He also read the Gospel in Greek.

The boy who sang the Responsorial Psalm will remember this day all his life.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

We here were quite amused by an addition to the liturgy:

As Papa Francesco was leaving the Basilica after praying at S. Peter's tomb there was a slight shifting of the Papal robes as he checked his watch.

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
As Papa Francesco was leaving the Basilica after praying at S. Peter's tomb there was a slight shifting of the Papal robes as he checked his watch.

Do you think he had a more important engagement elsewhere?

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

[Big Grin]

That's a bit like the Queen's response to the minister whose mobile phone went off during a Privy Council meeting: "You had better answer that - it may be someone important!"

So I think the Pope's non-singing is not just a preference for stark simplicity, but that he CAN'T sing. I'm sure the absence of one of his lungs must be the issue. It was most noticeable before the Gospel, with the Greek greeting Ireni pasi - peace to all. This has to be given by the bishop, and has to be sung - the former more important than the latter. So the Pope said it. By contrast, the doxology (per ipsum etc) was sung, but it was done by Cardinal Sodano as one of the concelebrants.

I approve of the shorter Mass though! It didn't feel rushed, but it was certainly not as interminable as Papal Masses often feel.

I did think this Inaugural Mass lacked the excitement of Benedict's, and can't quite put my finger on why that should be. Possibly because Pope Francis seems quite austere at Mass (except when he is preaching).

Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
As Papa Francesco was leaving the Basilica after praying at S. Peter's tomb there was a slight shifting of the Papal robes as he checked his watch.

Now, see, if it had been Benedict who did that, why the reason would be simple: he's German and things MUST be on time. So he would have checked to see whether he should increase or decrease the pace of his walking speed!

With an Argentinian, could it be the opposite? He might have been afraid that he was on time, which, of course, would have thrown off all the Latin American pilgrims coming to the Mass?

Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :

I've got too much time on my hands at work today, so I was comparing the photos from the inauguration mass of Benedict XVI with Pope Francis's from today. The first thing that struck me was the huge change in vestment style - gone is the cloth of gold that Benedict draped himself in. As I was googling for more photos, it also appears that Francis may have re-used his inauguration vestments - there's a picture of him in the Guardian taken five days ago, and he certainly seems to be wearing the same mitre that he did today.

I put together some photos on Facebook - don't know how visible they'll be to anyone who isn't my friend there...
Side by side comparison photo #1

Side by side comparison photo #2

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

The funny thing is, both the cross and the pallium Benedict is donning in those photos are throw backs from the papacy of JPII and something which Benedict himself later changed to a more traditional style. So with the exception of the colour of the vestments and shoes one could argue that Francis is still somewhat in continuity with Benedict. Of course, that does not been Francis might at sometime in the future change back. It's possible, even likely perhaps, but we shall see.

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
gone is the cloth of gold that Benedict draped himself in.

An unfortunate turn of phrase, but perhaps expressing where you are coming from?

Certainly the new Pope's mitre is "recycled". It's the same mitre he wore as Archbishop of Buenos Aires. Presumably the chasuble and dalmatics had to be quickly made in order to match? Or they were flown in from Argentina for the occasion.

The accoutrements of office at the installation Mass are usually decided ahead of time by the Master of Pontifical Ceremonies, so I assume that Pope Benedict's were arranged by Archbishop Piero Marini. When he left there was a distinct style shift, much to the delight of some. His replacement, Mgr Guido Marini, must have trawled through all the basement cupboards at St Peter's because all sorts of things made re-appearances - and that's the right word. They too were "recycled", but from previous popes rather than his own cupboard.

You might equally have compared the simplicity of Benedict seated on his Chair at his inauguration, with the rather more splendid affair used by Pope Francis.

These things change, evolve and come and go. I personally like noble simplicity, as Sacrosanctum Concilium n.34 of the Second Vatican Council asks for. The two go together. I hope we don't have a sudden rush of apparently "simple" things at the expense of nobility - just as a creeping tendency to have "noble" things at the expense of simplicity is not always good.

At any rate, comparisons are odious as they say, and I want to avoid them. The Romans say "after a fat pope comes a thin pope". In other words each one is very different from the one who came before.

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

To me, one of the striking (and pleasing) things is how straightforward an affair it was - they just got on with it. As one of the newspapers pointed out a few days ago, it is noticeable that the Catholic Church has gone from Benedict's notice of resignation to today in what, about six weeks. In comparison it is over a year since Rowan Williams announced his intention to resign, and the AB of C's enthronement isn't until Thursday. OK, this is largely to do with the structure of Anglicanism (especially the established nature of the CofE), but it is still a striking difference. And I'm sure we'll see a lot more razzmatazz at Canterbury.

And I did like the distribution of communion, with the lovely procession of Vatican umbrellas - so nearly flags.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Anyone know if there are going to be any repeats of the service/highlights on TV/radio at any point or will those who missed it have to resort to iPlayer?

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Indeed, having watched his first Mass as Pope, he is every inch the Jesuit - liturgically stark and minimalist. Not all Jesuits are bonkers, or antinomian or all-over-the-place liturgically, but I think they do tend to be rather stark.

He said Mass with devotion and intensity, but not rubrical accuracy. I'm sure someone will be able to have a word about the latter.

Poor Mgr Guido Marini. Looking glum and depressed is his default position, but he must be completely so at the moment. I noticed there was no lace on him today . I wonder how long he will last.

I think poor Guido was out of his lace within 24 hours of the election. Today no lace was seen on any of the ministers of the Mass. This might be just the right time in Rome to pick up some heavily marked down lace trimmed vesture - if you have a taste for that sort of thing, that is. [Killing me]

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I think poor Guido was out of his lace within 24 hours of the election. Today no lace was seen on any of the ministers of the Mass. This might be just the right time in Rome to pick up some heavily marked down lace trimmed vesture - if you have a taste for that sort of thing, that is.

*

I think you must have been watching on the radio, Mr Rob. Mgr Marini and the other ceremoniare all had a strip of lace about three inches wide set into their cottas. If we used hash tags around here there'd be a lot of #makingthepapacyinmyownimage going on.

I think it was FrTT, but if not my apologies, who suggested the non-singing might be related to the lung. I don't think so. I think it's related to being a poor singer, actually a very poor singer. He's not quite tone deaf but he certainly can't carry a tune even when accompanied. Still, not that much of a disadvantage these days. Pius XI sang poorly, as did Leo XIII, I'm told.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

That isn't lace!
There is a technical embroidery name for it (cut work??) which describes when threads of the fabric are pulled out or cut or something to create a "Nice Pattern".
Though usually for Msgr Guido it covers about 1/3 of the length of the body of the cotta. Not just a token band. And this one looks shorter than usual as well.

Has anyone seen Archbishop Georg?
I think I saw him at St Peter's Square in a wide-angle shot. He was wearing a black soutane with fuchsia facia (??)

Posted by Emendator Liturgia (# 17245) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
That isn't lace!
There is a technical embroidery name for it (cut work??) which describes when threads of the fabric are pulled out or cut or something to create a "Nice Pattern".

It's called drawn thread-work, which I have on both my alb and my cotta. The work on the cotta is hand done (by an older nun of an order here in Sydney who derives their income from selling vestments etc. Unfortunately, the poor soul has gone nearly blind from all of that close work.) The work on my alb (from Jesus and Mary (i.e. J&M) over there in Newcastle UK) is machine made.

I am sure the prelate of the Vatican etc have hand-made examples - I like it as less fussy than lace but maintaining elegance and style/

Posted by angelicum (# 13515) on :

The deacons of the Mass were all in lace albs.

Abp Ganswein was present dressed in choir dress (and mozetta) as one of the two prelates who follow directly behind the Holy Father in procession.

I'm not entirely sure why people are so determined to make the new Pope out to be some kind of harsh dictator. He doesn't strike me as the sort to be so dismissive of a hardworking cleric, not to mention all his modern predecessors by calling his work in offering a mozetta a carnival, nor does he strike me as the sort to care very much whether people wear lace or not. Just because he doesn't wear lace doesn't mean he looks unfavourably on those who do. Certainly given his great concern for the poor, he could well be acquainted with how his predecessor St Pius X helped the unemployed in Venice by starting a school of 600 lace workers.

[ 20. March 2013, 12:45: Message edited by: angelicum ]

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:

... That isn't lace!

'There is a technical embroidery name for it (cut work??) which describes when threads of the fabric are pulled out or cut or something to create a 'Nice Pattern'....

Correct, it wasn't lace at all on the surplices at the inaugural Mass, but banded open weave for pattern relief that you describe. Dear Guido did seem to have the tiniest lace bit of lace on the hem of his surplice, and no doubt he was wearing lace underwear. A lace handkerchief in his pocket to fondle would not been out of place.

I hope this photo shows the typical Roman surplice with some banded work (not lace) now in general use.

Roman open work banded surplice

*

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

And now this.

This guy knows how to point us to Christ, which is the most you can possibly ask of a presider.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I wondered why he wasn't 'enthroned' on to the chair of Peter and mused that they didn't want to risk him making an infallible statement about the poor.

Then I realised that his cathedral is another church (S. John Lateran?)

Was there an enthronement there on another occasion?

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I wondered why he wasn't 'enthroned' on to the chair of Peter and mused that they didn't want to risk him making an infallible statement about the poor.

Then I realised that his cathedral is another church (S. John Lateran?)

Was there an enthronement there on another occasion?

I'm not sure - I would guess it would follow at another point (the Lateran is
right, by the way!)

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

/The pope has not yet taken possession of St John Lateran,his cathedral as bishop of Rome.
This is why the pope will not officiate (as popes normally do) at the Mass of the Lord's supper in this church.
I would imagine that it will now be after Easter thgat this ceremony will take place.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
And now this.

This guy knows how to point us to Christ, which is the most you can possibly ask of a presider.

That is lovely, hart. Thanks for bringing it up.

If women can liturgically represent the apostles by having their feet washed (and I thought the rubrics forbade it) that does open up possibilities.

[ 21. March 2013, 21:44: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
And now this.

This guy knows how to point us to Christ, which is the most you can possibly ask of a presider.
That is lovely, hart. Thanks for bringing it up.

If women can liturgically represent the apostles by having their feet washed (and I thought the rubrics forbade it) that does open up possibilities.

It really doesn't.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by CL:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If women can liturgically represent the apostles by having their feet washed (and I thought the rubrics forbade it) that does open up possibilities.
It really doesn't.

Would you like to elaborate, or do you instead mean 'I really hope it doesn't'? If venbede is correct that Francis I has broken the rules in some way (he's clearly broken with custom, but breaking the rules would be something else!) then that's pretty important, I'd say. If, however, you feel venbede is incorrect then I for one would be interested to read that view. Just contradicting what another poster says doesn't really add anything to the argument, IMO.

quote:
Argument is an intellectual process, contradiction is just an automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

From about 2 minutes in [Biased]

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Women having their feet washed as part of the liturgy of the Last Supper have occurred for many decades at least in Canada.

Here, so far, it tends to be 12 men ranging in age from about 18 to doddery. I will see what this Thursday's mass will bring.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Shouldn't it be the bishop washing the feet of the priests under his jurisdiction?

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

In the Latin (i.e. Catholic) rite the bishop cannot spread himself so widely as to cover each church in his diocese.

Last year what you suggest is what the Pope did to twelve retired priests of his diocese of Rome. How nice that he had 12 priests, not otherwise occupied, on that night.

Those of us in the trenches make do with what we have.

What Francis, our pope, is doing is what he has exhorted us all to do - to remember the poor and disadvantaged

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Shouldn't the priests under his jurisdiction (and for the Pope there will be an awful lot of him) be exercising their priestly ministry in their own churches at that mass of all in the year? (I'm sure the rubrics say all priests should concelebrate at that mass if possible.)

I've been reading Tina Beattie and Robert Daly and have been appalled at the extent to which JR2 stressed the role of the priest as representative as priest, not of the baptized, but of Christ, and Christ as male.

Just because Francis will allow women to represent those who were historically male at the manedatum, does not mean there's snowball's hope in hell of him getting them to represent Christ as a priest at the altar. But it is a strong indication that he will not continue to re-inforce JP2 and Balthasar's sexist teaching.

If I'm overstepping the Dead Horse issue, please remove.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

We are teetering on a perilous cliff.

1. For the avoidance of doubt, the ordination of women is Dead Horse and all such discussions belong on that board. The discussion of whether women can be included among those whose feet are washed on Maundy Thursday may continue here. If you want to discuss the implications of that (or lack thereof) for the ordination of women, then again that will need to go to Dead Horses.

2. The Ship's policy is that hosts do not delete material from posts except in very limited circumstances (duplicate posts and things that may get us in legal hot water, mainly).

Noting these things, please continue to discuss papal liturgy.

seasick, Eccles host

[grammar]

[ 22. March 2013, 10:16: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Morlader (# 16040) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
....
The work on my alb (from Jesus and Mary (i.e. J&M) over there in Newcastle UK) is machine made.

/pedant and tangent alert
J&M Sewing is named after the founders of the company, Joyce Davison and Maureen Waterson.
/pedant alert off
I like the Jesus and Mary though. [Biased]

[ 22. March 2013, 10:23: Message edited by: Morlader ]

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I've been reading Tina Beattie and Robert Daly and have been appalled at the extent to which JR2 stressed the role of the priest as representative as priest, not of the baptized, but of Christ, and Christ as male.

You can be appalled all you like but in Catholic teaching the priest as priest is representative of Christ and not as representative of the baptised. We talk of the priest as alter Christus, as 'another Christ' and when he celebrates the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist, that he acts in persona Christi capitis ecclesiae, 'in the person of Christ the Head of the Church'. The notion of the priest as representative of the people is pretty much unknown in Catholicism and I'm not really sure that I've encountered it elsewhere.

As for the maleness of Christ: it's a fact and the question of whether anything turns on it is a Dead Horse.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

This is a purgatorial tangent I suppose, but surely the priest's role is a two-way thing: representing Christ to the people and the people to Christ?

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
The notion of the priest as representative of the people is pretty much unknown in Catholicism and I'm not really sure that I've encountered it elsewhere.

Hebrews 5:1?

Thurible

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
This is a purgatorial tangent I suppose, but surely the priest's role is a two-way thing: representing Christ to the people and the people to Christ?

Which is what Robert Daly SJ seems to think in his book Unveiling Sacrifice I have just read.

The NT uses the word priest to refer to two, er, things. Christ our Great High Priest (as per Hebrews) and the priestly people of God (as per 1 Peter). The ministers of that people embody their priesthood.

It was also the teaching of JP2 that an ontological difference between men and women is a part of the Christian faith that concerned me.

It may be the present Holy Father is less likely to run with that.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Here’s Father Robert Daly SJ (like HH), Emeritus Professor of Theology at Boston College, in Sacrifice Unveiled.

"The dynamic of the Eucharistic action flows from Christ to the Church to the Eucharist and ... the role of the priest is embedded in the Christ-Church relationship."

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
The notion of the priest as representative of the people is pretty much unknown in Catholicism and I'm not really sure that I've encountered it elsewhere.

Color me as confused as Thurible.

quote:

In the administration of the sacraments, the priest acts in persona Christi Capitis and in persona Ecclesiae.

CDF note from 2005.

[ 22. March 2013, 17:34: Message edited by: Hart ]

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

I believe the notion of the priest being a representative of the people, for which reason the priest should start the service among the people, or at least process to the front from the congregation, is stressed in Richard Giles' "Creating Uncommon Worship". Which I take as strong evidence that the idea is muddle-headed, wrong, and every effort should be made to oppose it.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

I'd say that the two-way thing as outlined by Angloid is the key thing. Incidentally, that description is very similar to the one given in the British Methodist report "What is a presbyter?" ISTM that the point you're in danger of great muddledness is when one of those two sides gets out of balance with the other.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I believe the notion of the priest being a representative of the people, for which reason the priest should start the service among the people, or at least process to the front from the congregation, is stressed in Richard Giles' "Creating Uncommon Worship". Which I take as strong evidence that the idea is muddle-headed, wrong, and every effort should be made to oppose it.

Agreed. That book should be retitled "Destroying Common Prayer."

Posted by angelicum (# 13515) on :

Re. the priest representing the Church, I have to agree with Trisagion.

The priest represents the Church to the Father only in as much as he represents Christ.

It is not the priest or the community or the Church without its Head who make representation to the Father, but it is Christ, through his humanity, who represents all people to God. Christ is the head of his Church. He is the one mediator between God and humanity. He is the Priest and Victim, and he takes all sin upon himself and offers himself as a worthy Sacrifice.

Surely the priest represents the 'people' (who are far more than the gathered community - but extend in time and space to encompass the whole Church of God), solely through his representation of Christ, who is the High Priest.

Rather than suggesting that the priest represents two different persons or objects, it is more correct to say the priest 'represents' one person in two different ways: (1) The priest represents Christ to the people - and in so doing re-presents to us the Sacrifice of Christ on calvary, and offers God's forgiveness for the remission of sins. (2) The priest represents Christ to the Father - the Christ who took upon himself our sins and the priest re-presenting to the Father that one perfect Sacrifice on Calvary, and in so doing begs the Father's forgiveness for the sins of the world.

The priest representing the people of God as distinct from his representation of Christ makes no sense. The priest is not an unblemished, pure, holy, spotless Victim. That representation to the Father is insignificant compared to the sacrifice of Christ - it is like the sacrifices of old covenant, only a foretaste of what is to come.

[ 22. March 2013, 23:43: Message edited by: angelicum ]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Put like that, it makes sense.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

Many thanks, Angelicum. I've been unconscionably busy over the last few days and hadn't the time to come back and explain what I meant. You have done it very well for me. What had concerned me was the word 'representative'. It's connotations - democratic, legatine or typical - all seemed to me to distort Catholic understandings of priesthood out of all recognition.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Thank you very much. I'm very concerned in the Church of England the sacramental character of the ordained priesthood is denied or downplayed with talk of "the priesthood of all believers".

I'm also concerned at clericalism, and, although it rarely looks that way, a sacramental character should overcome that (in so far as the personal character of the priests is not the most important thing about them).

I didn't mean "democratic representative" by saying "representative". I meant actualised symbolic representative of the people, in so far as they are the body of Christ the great high priest.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

The Being and Doing (sometimes perhaps erroneously separated) of a bishop, priest, or deacon, is magnificently expressed in the catholic and reformed Ordinal of the BCP, and carried into subsequent ordinals of the Church of England. Although not technically regarded as a sacrament, but that is possible historical and theological semantics for reasons we all know and are well rehearsed, the powerful and explanatory words do appear to preserve a catholic and sacramental notion of ordained ministry. Perhaps more modern ordinals make this even more explicit.

I recently attended the ordination (or 'making' for those who prefer) of a deacon in the Church of England. This happened to be by the Bishop to the Forces in the chapel of HMS Drake, Plymouth.

The service was moving and explicit in its sacramental character. The sermon, the vows, the laying on of hands, the vesting, all illustrated something permanent and symbolic of the diakonia of the whole church, and also the ordained deacon sharing in the diakonia of Christ. Thus something representative from below, as it were, and something from above.

One interesting diaconal liturgical action took place right at the end. It was strikingly sacramental, and powerfully 'anti-clerical' in what it said:

the bishop changed places with the new deacon. The deacon sat on the bishop's chair and the ordaining bishop washed his feet.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Guido Marini was wearing his usual rochet/cotta at Easter.

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