Ship of Fools: Evangelical "accretions"

Thread: Evangelical "accretions" Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by jlav12 (# 17148) on :

I'm wondering about the legality of Evangelicals in Anglican Churches, TEC specifically, changing bits of the liturgy or adding to suit their theological stances. I'm pretty much a "by the book" type when it comes to liturgy but I notice that Anglo-Catholics often add bits such as the Angelus or other Marian devotion to the 1979 or 1928 liturgies. What is the legality of this stuff in TEC? Is it equally acceptable for Evangelicals to change the liturgy?

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Evangelicals/Low Churchmen don't add to the liturgy in TEC. If anything they would tend to subtract or minimise, but I think in point of fact they will do things by the book. It's actually both Anglo-Catholics a many MOTR places that will add things (even TEC MOTRs will add things like "Behold the Lamb of God..." immediately before the Communion of the People. The Angelus, however, does not count because it is said/sung after the liturgy -- it is an extra-liturgical devotion and perfectly legal. As to the order of the Mass itself, toleration depends entirely on the local Ordinary. Anglo-Catholics are normally allowed to do what they wish, though the bishop may require some pro forma conformity for a visitation.

Posted by jlav12 (# 17148) on :

I'm not meaning to offend Anglo-Catholics just noting that they tend to tinker with the liturgy, although I wasn't aware the Angelus was extra-liturgical.

So, if an Evangelical minister decided to use a more Evangelical liturgy or incorporate bits of an more Evangelical liturgy, much as the Anglo-Catholic adds the "Behold the Lamb of God..." or the "Lord, I am not worthy..." to the liturgy, would that be acceptable, pending the approval of the Ordinary?

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

But evos don" t really do liturgy, do they? TEC isn't the CofE and I don't think evos here - a rather small party in TEC - are apt to be too BCP-lite. The rubrics would allow them to do things like use another "praise dong" in lieu of the Gloria. Apart from doing happy-flappy music, I don't think neo-evos really need to do anything very special, and the old fashioned low church people will just do a conservative traddie rendition of Rite I or 1928, using surplice and scarf or surplice and stole for MP or HC, respectively. The modern evos are likely to wear mod styles of euchies or else possibly just alb and stole, and to stick to happy clappy Eucharists, rather than bothering with mattins at all. Prayer and praise services would not be the principal Sunday morning service but might come in at other times.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
"praise dong"
happy-flappy music

Just what are you getting at here, LSK? [Eek!]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
"praise dong"
happy-flappy music
Just what are you getting at here, LSK?

Oh dear, that's what comes of posting from my iphone!

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

I was shocked to see a certain evo parish in the USA have a "praise band" set up. One of the middle aged priest played something in the band. He wore a short sleeve clerical shirt and collar with jeans an MOTR stole.

Low and MOTR parishes are into stoles over clerical shirts or cassock albs with omni-stoles invariably worn straight down.

The will certainly be likely to use both fashionable praise songs and ancient classics from the 60s, 70s and 80s, and often for a special treat might dip into a classic hymn from Sacred Songs and Solos.

What will distinguish them from real Penties and Evos will be a non-chalant attitude towards Easter Vigil, Confession, the Offices, and manual acts. There will be teaching about salvation meaning "receiving Jesus" and oddly they won't mean "Eucharist" --for some reason without the article. The term "mass" will make them uncomfortable as will "father." "Mother" will make them apoplectic for some reason. "Call me Jane" will be the norm.

So in TEC, evo services normally will be a bare-bones Rite II "Eucharist." Preaching will be oriented towards "salvation." Hymnody all over the place.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
So in TEC, evo services normally will be a bare-bones Rite II "Eucharist."

Why have you put Eucharist in quotes? Are you implying that because they're evangelical it's not a proper Eucharist?

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Evangelicals do liturgy. Catholics do liturgy. Baptists do liturgy.
The Stations of the Cross are liturgical; so is an altar-call.
It may not be the liturgy that you like or approve of, but it is certainly liturgy.
Cue Sigmund Freud and 'the narcissism of small differences.'

Mama, you need to be less easily shocked.

[ 25. March 2013, 09:16: Message edited by: Amos ]

Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :

What does TEC stand for?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

It stands for The Episcopal Church - the current name for the US branch of the Anglican Communion. From memory, it was originally the Protestant Episcopal Church of the US, the became ECUSA, the Episcopal Church USA.

Posted by jlav12 (# 17148) on :

Well, it still is PECUSA, just look at the Constitution and Canons, TEC is just an accepted and the most popular alternative.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

A significant number of US Episcopalians have felt uncomfortable about the "Protestant" designation since at least the mid-19th Century. When the Southern states seceded and a constituting convention was held to set up a national Episcopal Church in the Confederate States of America, a serious proposal was made to change the name of the body from "Protestant Episcopal" to "The Reformed Catholic Church in the Confederate States of America". It very nearly was adopted, except for the strong opposition of the Bishop of Virginia. Later in the 19th Century, the General Convention of PECUSA again came close to changing the Church's name to "Reformed Catholic Church in the USA", but again failed to quite get the necessary votes. After that it was felt that "Episcopal" was too much a part of the Church's recognised name and brand to change. However, the normal self-referent was changed from "PECUSA" to "ECUSA" by the 1970s, and from there simply to The Episcopal Church (TEC) about 10 or 15 years ago, the idea with this being that the Church has various overseas dioceses in fully independent countries, and isn't simply an American church. Legally, however, the Church is incorporated under the law of the State of New York as the Domestic and Foreign Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America. It is presumably more trouble than it is worth to change the original incorporation, and hence we would also seem to be stuck with the official designation of PECUSA, even if this title is now entirely archaic.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I was shocked to see a certain evo parish in the USA have a "praise band" set up. One of the middle aged priest played something in the band. He wore a short sleeve clerical shirt and collar with jeans an MOTR stole. ...

In that case, don't visit England. We may be the fons et origo, but you wouldn't like it.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

I have nothing against a praise band,while playing and singing during a Sung Eucharist, provided that the celebrant/presider is properly vested,preferably a chasuble or surplice and stole.
I still recall a joint Eucharist of Anglicans and Old-Catholics in 2006, which included music performed by a praise band, a lot of noise.
However all the priests were properly vested and no silly jeans or any other improper dress for the Mass.

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
So in TEC, evo services normally will be a bare-bones Rite II "Eucharist."
Why have you put Eucharist in quotes? Are you implying that because they're evangelical it's not a proper Eucharist?

No, no! Of course not! I'm just noting that I've noticed in my admittedly limited experience that they tend to use the term "Eucharist" without an article, or the cover-all term service and rarely use the term "mass." No offence intended.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

My experience of evo-Anglicans in OZ and more especially NZ is that even a clerical collar, let alone any form of liturgical garb, would be absolutely foreign to them. Very high would be a tie. The low-low end would be a tee shirt. Most would wear open neck shirt for their (very occasional) observation of God's dinner. Praise band and sermon would be the key features of the liturgy.

Posted by jlav12 (# 17148) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
A significant number of US Episcopalians have felt uncomfortable about the "Protestant" designation since at least the mid-19th Century. When the Southern states seceded and a constituting convention was held to set up a national Episcopal Church in the Confederate States of America, a serious proposal was made to change the name of the body from "Protestant Episcopal" to "The Reformed Catholic Church in the Confederate States of America". It very nearly was adopted, except for the strong opposition of the Bishop of Virginia. Later in the 19th Century, the General Convention of PECUSA again came close to changing the Church's name to "Reformed Catholic Church in the USA", but again failed to quite get the necessary votes. After that it was felt that "Episcopal" was too much a part of the Church's recognised name and brand to change. However, the normal self-referent was changed from "PECUSA" to "ECUSA" by the 1970s, and from there simply to The Episcopal Church (TEC) about 10 or 15 years ago, the idea with this being that the Church has various overseas dioceses in fully independent countries, and isn't simply an American church. Legally, however, the Church is incorporated under the law of the State of New York as the Domestic and Foreign Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America. It is presumably more trouble than it is worth to change the original incorporation, and hence we would also seem to be stuck with the official designation of PECUSA, even if this title is now entirely archaic.

I'm not denying this but it's still "Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America" according to the C&C too. There's also a parish in town that styles itself "Protestant Episcopal" so I wouldn't say "archaic" maybe, minority.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

How TEC should correctly be designated is not a subject for Ecclesiantics. The OP topic is about additions to the liturgy customarily made in Evangelical Anglican parishes, but we are wandering far and wide and there has been an amount of unhelpful snark. Please discuss the OP or this thread will be closed.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by gorpo (# 17025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Evangelicals do liturgy. Catholics do liturgy. Baptists do liturgy.
The Stations of the Cross are liturgical; so is an altar-call.
It may not be the liturgy that you like or approve of, but it is certainly liturgy.
Cue Sigmund Freud and 'the narcissism of small differences.'

Mama, you need to be less easily shocked.

I wonder if some people would be shocked to watch an eucharist celebrated by the apostles, just in case they were not wearing the right clothes...
[Roll Eyes]

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

All those extreme Evangelicals are promoting The
Heresy of Formlessness.
If they do not like the Anglican forms of worship,leave the Anglican Communion, join another church, or start a church of your own, like one of those American Mega churches, with lots and lots of money.
So many Evangelicals are more interested in money, than in sound theology and worship.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
My experience of evo-Anglicans in OZ and more especially NZ is that even a clerical collar, let alone any form of liturgical garb, would be absolutely foreign to them. Very high would be a tie. The low-low end would be a tee shirt. Most would wear open neck shirt for their (very occasional) observation of God's dinner. Praise band and sermon would be the key features of the liturgy.

I'm from a TEC background. Excuse me, I think I'm going to be sick because of what you report about Anglicans in the Antipodes [Projectile]

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Did anyone see my host post?

Utrecht Catholic and Mr Rob: In Ecclesiantics we seek to maintain an atmosphere of respect for all the traditions represented here. Such comments do nothing to advance that aim.

I think the chances of this thread returning to the OP are very slim. I am therefore closing the thread.

seasick, Eccles host

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