Ship of Fools: London calling - the church is still growing

Thread: London calling - the church is still growing Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=025919

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

Overall numbers of church goers in London, still going up.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

So why is this happening in London, and not in other C of E dioceses? (If, in fact, that is the case).

There does seem to be some (anecdotal?) evidence that, indeed, Anglican churches in London - or, at least, the evangelical and A-C ones! - are doing well.

Ian J.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

It is an intriguing question - possibly immigration related? Also the amount of cathedral and other 'landmark' churches in London probably helps...

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
So why is this happening in London, and not in other C of E dioceses? (If, in fact, that is the case).

There does seem to be some (anecdotal?) evidence that, indeed, Anglican churches in London - or, at least, the evangelical and A-C ones! - are doing well.

Ian J.

Not just evangelical parishes. There are a lot of Anglo-Catholic parishes in North London that had tiny congregations that have increased ten-fold.

Two recent examples - I was at St Mary Primrose Hill a few weeks ago, the church was full and the stewards even had to put out extra chairs. At Holy Trinity Sloane Square if you don't arrive by 11am, you have to sit in the side chapel (and this is a big church.

And weekday worship is much more popular too - we regulary get 30 plus at our Wednesday evening communion service.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
So why is this happening in London, and not in other C of E dioceses? (If, in fact, that is the case).

There does seem to be some (anecdotal?) evidence that, indeed, Anglican churches in London - or, at least, the evangelical and A-C ones! - are doing well.

Ian J.

My apologies Ian - I see you mentioned A-C churches too in your original post.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I do think that London is very different to the rest of the country and that there is a more transient and mobile population ... and transient or marginal communities are often those where church growth takes place.

I think the immigrant thing plays into this, but also the number of people living and working away from the areas they grew up in. People need community and churches can provide that.

I'm not suggesting that these are the only reasons and that God doesn't have anything to do with it, of course.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

According to Peter Brierley large churches are increasingly important to church attendance. The largest churches in his list (1000 - 10,000 attenders each), which account for 5% of all churches in England, account for one third of all churchgoers in the country. The larger the church the greater the likelihood that it's a growing church, that young people attend, and that there will be a significant proportion of ethnic minorities.

All of these factors benefit London churches, because most of the country's biggest churches are in London. London is the most multicultural city in the UK, and it's the quintessential young person's city. In fact, nearly 60% of all English churchgoers in their twenties are going to church in London. This means that people in their twenties must be seriously underrepresented in churches outside London, but it also means that young people and young parents in London can more easily find churches where they'll find people of the same age range, and where their concerns might be listened to.

Large churches, whatever we think of them, have the resources, the energy, the manpower and the diversity that keep people interested and that potentially attract new people. That seems to be Brierley's message, anyway.

http://www.lausanneworldpulse.com/perspectives.php/1109?pg=all

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/a.wind.of.change.at.pentecost/10954.htm

[ 05. July 2013, 19:00: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

The evidence in the article points towards the growth coming primarily from London's immigrant population.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In fact, nearly 60% of all English churchgoers in their twenties are going to church in London.

Ooh, what an interesting little fact... I wonder how many of all English 20-29 year olds live in London, 20-30%

Posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis (# 3886) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In fact, nearly 60% of all English churchgoers in their twenties are going to church in London.
Ooh, what an interesting little fact... I wonder how many of all English 20-29 year olds live in London, 20-30%

21% in 2001 according to the census.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

The serious under-representation of that age group outside of London is a major concern.

On the 'big church' thing. 'Big' is relative. Hereabouts, a church of around 80-100 people would be considered large.

But in microcosm terms, it is certainly the larger churches around here that are doing the best in terms of attracting new people and keeping youth work going etc. So, whilst the numbers are different, Brierley's principle might hold outside London too, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

The statistics in this part of the article:

quote:
◾Although 67% considered themselves Christian and 63% wanted Christianity to have a special place in the country, just 13% believed Christianity to be the only true religion, and 53% argued that Christians should not try to convert people, preferring to put pluralism above dogma – the lowest scores for Christian belief were for statements about the literal truth of scripture

probably would be very different in other countries. Is it true for the apparently-growing evangelical wing?

It does show that living in a multi-cultural setting affects one's view, either into fear (UKIP/BNP) or acceptance of the reality around one. The same effect colours attitudes to SSM - people who actually know out gay people are less likely to have problems with this.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The serious under-representation of that age group outside of London is a major concern.

On the 'big church' thing. 'Big' is relative. Hereabouts, a church of around 80-100 people would be considered large.

But in microcosm terms, it is certainly the larger churches around here that are doing the best in terms of attracting new people and keeping youth work going etc. So, whilst the numbers are different, Brierley's principle might hold outside London too, albeit on a much smaller scale.

IME that is the case too, and it's not just con-evo places.

I would imagine that university towns do well.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

It is perfectly logical that the larger churches (whatever that looks like in your context) are able to attract more people. They are more likely to have a mix of ages and it is very hard to be both new to the church generally and the only person in your age range/social situation.

Also a group large enough to sneak in and out discreetly on initial visits is helpful and the congregation of 10-20 tend to notice a visitor!

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Yes, I think all that is true and that it's true that university towns are doing better than those without ... although it's hard to find a sizeable town without a university these days!

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The statistics in this part of the article:

quote:
◾Although 67% considered themselves Christian and 63% wanted Christianity to have a special place in the country, just 13% believed Christianity to be the only true religion, and 53% argued that Christians should not try to convert people, preferring to put pluralism above dogma – the lowest scores for Christian belief were for statements about the literal truth of scripture
probably would be very different in other countries. Is it true for the apparently-growing evangelical wing?

It does show that living in a multi-cultural setting affects one's view, either into fear (UKIP/BNP) or acceptance of the reality around one. The same effect colours attitudes to SSM - people who actually know out gay people are less likely to have problems with this.

These stats come from questionnaires completed by '1,151 attenders, of whom 460 were categorized as occasional churchgoers (attending less than six times a year)'. The services in question were 'two evening carol services in Worcester cathedral in 2009 and one afternoon and one evening carol service in Lichfield cathedral in 2010.' Some of these attenders might have been evangelicals, but many would have been 'ordinary' English people, some churchgoers and some not, turning up for a traditional Christmas service. The responses highlighted above and in the link don't look very 'evangelical' to me.

Coming from the West Midlands myself I should also say that Worcester and Lichfield aren't all that 'multi-cultural' compared to other parts of the region.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
So why is this happening in London, and not in other C of E dioceses? (If, in fact, that is the case).

There does seem to be some (anecdotal?) evidence that, indeed, Anglican churches in London - or, at least, the evangelical and A-C ones! - are doing well.

Ian J.

You might want to check the figures for Exeter Diocese.

How much are the London statistics influenced by the fact that many people who move to London are already Christians and Churchgoers, I wonder?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:

How much are the London statistics influenced by the fact that many people who move to London are already Christians and Churchgoers, I wonder?

I imagine that London churches benefit from the fact that Christians, like other people, have always had to move to London for their careers. Leaving aside various regional circumstances, churches elsewhere in the country probably haven't benefited so much in recent times from large numbers of people regularly moving in and potentially looking for a church to attend.

In fact, looked at this way the growth of churches in London must be occurring partly at the expense of churches elsewhere in the country, which is hardly a good thing to hear if you're a Christian in the provinces!

Posted by DouglasTheOtter (# 17681) on :

Half full, half empty.

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

One thing that gets people to the church is that some schools check they are are at church and so they take the children. The children meet on morning services and that means many parents go to church with them.

Another thing that I reckon can't be useful to get more people, is that quite a lot of churches do not have Sunday evening services - though quite a few do have that,

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
One thing that gets people to the church is that some schools check they are are at church and so they take the children. The children meet on morning services and that means many parents go to church with them.

Are you talking about the cases where children have to go to church in order to get into particular day schools? If so, then I agree that this probably has an impact as well. Whenever I hear of parents taking their children to an Anglican church for this reason it's usually a story about London. It's never about Wolverhampton or Sheffield, or some such place!

quote:

Another thing that I reckon can't be useful to get more people, is that quite a lot of churches do not have Sunday evening services - though quite a few do have that.

Yet most churches that used to have Sunday evening services found that these were poorly attended. That's why relatively few churches have them now.

[ 08. July 2013, 18:25: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
One thing that gets people to the church is that some schools check they are are at church and so they take the children. The children meet on morning services and that means many parents go to church with them.

Are you talking about the cases where children have to go to church in order to get into particular day schools? If so, then I agree that this probably has an impact as well. Whenever I hear of parents taking their children to an Anglican church for this reason it's usually a story about London. It's never about Wolverhampton or Sheffield, or some such place!

quote:

Another thing that I reckon can't be useful to get more people, is that quite a lot of churches do not have Sunday evening services - though quite a few do have that.
Yet most churches that used to have Sunday evening services found that these were poorly attended. That's why relatively few churches have them now.

Yes, children and their parents have to go to church to get into the school which is CofE school.
We had at least 40 people at our evening services, and it went down to 20 after a while, and the morning was big and it went smaller and now it's got bigger and bigger again.

[ 09. July 2013, 00:45: Message edited by: tclune ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:

How much are the London statistics influenced by the fact that many people who move to London are already Christians and Churchgoers, I wonder?
I imagine that London churches benefit from the fact that Christians, like other people, have always had to move to London for their careers. Leaving aside various regional circumstances, churches elsewhere in the country probably haven't benefited so much in recent times from large numbers of people regularly moving in and potentially looking for a church to attend.

In fact, looked at this way the growth of churches in London must be occurring partly at the expense of churches elsewhere in the country, which is hardly a good thing to hear if you're a Christian in the provinces!

Generally, not only is it only true to say that what is true of That London is not true of the rest of the country (I hate the term "the provinces" like most of the country is just outliers), it's often true to say that what is true of That London is precisely what is not true of the country as a whole.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0