Ship of Fools: Do clergy tithe to their own church(es)?

Thread: Do clergy tithe to their own church(es)? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Ahleal V (# 8404) on :

Hello,

Whilst lunching with an Anglican cleric, he implied that he expected most parishoners to give about £1,000 a year to the church. However, I then did a double-take when he mentioned that he gave the same amount to the parish.

I had presumed that as the Anglican clergy were paid by the (National) church, that their working life was a 'tithe' to God, and so did not give to their own parish church themselves.

Also, I vaguely remember reading in a semi-official document on clergy taxation that some clergy 'tithed back' their expenses that the parish had reimbursed, (but I could be mis-remembering this...)

So, in the experience of ship-mates, do clergy tithe to their own churches? Should they do so?

x

AV

[ 11. July 2013, 14:15: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

I have known clergy that give routinely way above the tithe . It's known as leading by example .

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I know from being a counter at our church that our pastor does. I wasn't surprised though. She talks the talk and she isn't insincere, so I figured she should and did.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

All the clergy I have worked with appear to have tithed.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Some years ago I was looking after a small church which had no minister but was expecting to call one. However cash was tight and they weren't sure if they could afford to pay the stipend.

They looked at the accounts and did the sums. Right at the start they decided that the next Minister should be single as the Council Tax would be 25% lower. But there was still a gap of about £1000. "Oh, that's fine", they said, "The Minister's tithe will make that up".

I was horrified and said that they could presume no such thing and that it was up to the incoming Minister to decide how they would use their money! I think they saw my point ...

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

All the TEC clergy I've known have tithed. In fact one priest I know (who I believe has some independent means) tithes her gross. [Eek!]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

I've never known clergy not to tithe (where such knowledge was available to me in the first place, of course), but I have known one who caused a minor controversy by choosing to continue to tithe to their previous parish rather than the one they were now leading.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Tithing is not common but not unknown in Anglican circles. I suspect what the cleric may have been talking about was the 'parish share' which is a sum of money that each parish pays into the diocesan pot.

But I might be wrong ...

Posted by Cedd (# 8436) on :

I don't tithe but I don't claim my expenses either, so it probably works out.

Posted by Cenobite (# 14853) on :

Mrs C and I tithed to the parish church before my ordination. It never occurred to us to do anything other than continue to do so afterwards.

As PaulBC says, it is leading by example (not that we broadcast it, but if ever anyone asks, we don't hide it - the fact that we give, not how much we give!)

Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :

In my non-Anglican experience, clergy do tithe their own parishes. I don't know of any scriptural exceptions for the clergy regarding tithes. We may structure pay packages for clergy for taxation/legal reasons by calling it a stipend, they aren't "employees", etc. but for all practical purposes the pastor gets a paycheck the same as anyone else with a job (albeit usually a poorly paid one). Another reason is to lead by example. Though this is less important as most parishoners don't know the individual contributions, it seems hypocritical for a pastor to preach on tithing when they don't do it themselves.

BTW, getting £1,000 (or about $1,500) from each parishoner in most congregations would be a miracle on par with the fishes and loaves and would probably fix financial problems in many churches. IME, 20% of the people provide 90% of the funds.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

In my admittedly limited experience, Anglican clergy are often the biggest givers of money to their own churches. It's not always because they're so generous: sometimes it's just that their stipend is the biggest income in the congregation.

Posted by Custard (# 5402) on :

I do claim expenses in full because a lot of them are tax-deductible.

Better to claim expenses in full and then give the money back than not claim them. With UK tax law, anyway.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Another reason for claiming expenses in full is that it makes the parish realise the full cost of ministry. And doesn't set a precedent for one's successor who might be in a different financial situation.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

I'm completely unfamiliar with this subject, what sort of things can a priest claim for on expenses?

Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :

It has never occurred to me that the Vicar would NOT tithe. Surely, s/he should lead by example?

As for people giving to other needs, rather then the Church, we give our 'quota' to the Diocese. The dioscese sets the figure. We then give 20% of what is left to a number of causes. We select the causes by secret ballot every three years. We are in this process at the moment.

But I would also assume that many of us give a further 10% to causes that are important to us, but are not on the Churches list of causes.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

I've been a parish treasurer and both clergy I worked with tithed (by which I mean that they gave into the church offering, not necessarily that they gave a fixed percentage).

One gave by salary deduction, so it went into our account without them ever seeing it, and the other gave into the loose plate.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I'm completely unfamiliar with this subject, what sort of things can a priest claim for on expenses?

Mileage, theology books, parking fees when visiting, stationery and stamps used on church business, copying at the copy shop, conference or course fees (if agreed with the Treasurer beforehand) ...

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

I tithed when I was a layman and did not change my habits when I was ordained. I would find it very difficult to say anything about stewardship if I did not. I claim a little over half of my expenses, eat some, and take my mileage as an unreimbursed business expense.

OTOH, I used to hear a great deal about a well-paid clergyman in this diocese who thought it was OK to give precise 1% of his income to the parish, whilst still claiming expenses! The cat got out of the bag, and it became a huge scandal in the parish, and giving fell off as a result.

Most of the clergy who make anything close to a respectable wage, and most of those who do not, tithe.

PD

[ 12. July 2013, 04:16: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by Vade Mecum (# 17688) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Most of the clergy who make anything close to a respectable wage

Nope, never met one of those...

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Yes. At least the ones I am aware of do.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I'm completely unfamiliar with this subject, what sort of things can a priest claim for on expenses?

The Church of England provides fairly comprehensive information for clergy and treasurers.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

I agree with the 20% giving 80% of the weekly collection. At least, that's what it was in my parish last fiscal year. Collections have since gone up as many have switched to direct deposit. Of course, that doesn't take into account special collections.

[clarifying word]

[ 12. July 2013, 09:16: Message edited by: PeteC ]

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

Every priest I have known over the years has tithed to his or her parish in the Episcopal Church.

Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on :

IME, it varies. One clergyman I know still makes his primary giving to the church that sponsored him both as an individual in the first place and then helped him financially through his ordination training. He sees it as his 'home church' and the church he plans on retiring back to. Others give to their parish church. Still others give all of their giving to missions work they feel passionate about (e.g. a financially struggling link diocese) or directly to the diocese.

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

With 6 churches it gets divided up - varying a bit according to size and mission. Plus the extras that never quite get claimed for.

And I maintain a proportion going to work outside of my context too to keep a balance.

I have standing orders set up so that means the treasurers in each place know - it was interesting at first to have surprised and grateful responses, as if this was not something they expected.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I don't think it is anyone's business what people give in the offering to God. For some it is money, for others time and talents. I know of people who avoid church because of the impression that they are only wanted for their money. At one time we had an offering plate at church but I had this changed to bags that didn't display to all and sundry what was given. When it comes to tithing, a tenth of the income of a poor person is a much bigger sacrifice than a tenth of a rich person's income. The widow's mite is worth more than the largesse of any millionaire.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Yes. At least the ones I am aware of do.

All the ones we know do as well. There are variations about what expenses are claimed, but we've always worked on the claim what you're supposed to. It means the congregations are fully aware of their costs and we don't create problems for anyone who comes after us.

Tubbs

Posted by Merchant Trader (# 9007) on :

I have had various financial roles in quite a few churches and my observation is that this is an area where the clergy do indeed practice what they preach.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

THe cynical response to that question was on the BBC show Rev. in which Rev says to the Archdeacon something like "If I didn't put money in the collection the income would look totally pathetic."

I know the Minister at my church does (cos I used to do the books) and at a rate far more that $1,000 (or even the equivalent in pounds) a year too.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

All the Episcopal clergy I know tithe to their church.

Posted by jugular (# 4174) on :

I tithe to my own parish, though if we were in a better financial state, I might give a portion to a struggling parish.

I don't see the names, but I do see the figures of how much is pledged each year. My giving makes me the third highest giving household in the parish, though I am certain I do not have the third highest income!

I try not to crow about it, but I do make it clear that I tithe to the parish and invite the congregation to do the same. I do this generally in a sermon in our 'Planned Giving' (pledging) season every year.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
Whilst lunching with an Anglican cleric, he implied that he expected most parishoners to give about £1,000 a year to the church. However, I then did a double-take when he mentioned that he gave the same amount to the parish.

This is interesting to me, not that the cleric tithes himself (why wouldn't he?) but that he expects most parishioners to give a certain amount. Wouldn't one's tithe depend on how much one earnt? £1,000 is a tithe of £10,000, so if people were giving their entire tithe to the parish and they made a salary of £10,000 per year, this would be the amount they give. But in reality, some earn more than this and some earn less than this, so I would expect their tithes to vary accordingly.

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V:
Whilst lunching with an Anglican cleric, he implied that he expected most parishoners to give about £1,000 a year to the church. However, I then did a double-take when he mentioned that he gave the same amount to the parish.
This is interesting to me, not that the cleric tithes himself (why wouldn't he?) but that he expects most parishioners to give a certain amount. Wouldn't one's tithe depend on how much one earnt? £1,000 is a tithe of £10,000, so if people were giving their entire tithe to the parish and they made a salary of £10,000 per year, this would be the amount they give. But in reality, some earn more than this and some earn less than this, so I would expect their tithes to vary accordingly.

Goodness if everybody in our congregations gave £1000 a year our churches wouldn't be in financial trouble.

Having been around churhces a long time and knowing treasurers and gift aid secretaries. I know that in the poor churches I have been a member of, the vicar was often the largest giver inthe congregation.

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jugular:
I don't see the names, but I do see the figures of how much is pledged each year. My giving makes me the third highest giving household in the parish, though I am certain I do not have the third highest income!

This is something I would expect too. As the clergy, if it is your parish, it is your life, and so you are probably emotionally invested in it to a greater degree than many of your parishioners. Not that they don't care about it, but that their lives are more likely to be more divided. They will often have their own separate workplace which may have charity things and requests for donations, and they may be involved in other Christian voluntary stuff.

I think if I were clergy, with my own parish, I'd give more to the parish, but as it is, as a regular lay person, I feel led to give more of my money to help people in third world countries who are starving, or who need education - that sort of thing.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

Speaking from a lay perspective, it seems entirely bizarre to me that a clergy person would tithe to their own parish, or anyone else's. They are doing their part in supporting the church by their work, which demands a huge sacrifice of their personhood, and in return receiving the wherewithall to live. To then have to give part of that back seems quite bizarre. The labourer is worth their hire, to quote someone or other.....

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Speaking from a lay perspective, it seems entirely bizarre to me that a clergy person would tithe to their own parish, or anyone else's. They are doing their part in supporting the church by their work, which demands a huge sacrifice of their personhood, and in return receiving the wherewithall to live. To then have to give part of that back seems quite bizarre. The labourer is worth their hire, to quote someone or other.....

Don't we all (at least in theory) give to God in our work, in our lives, regardless of whether it is a specifically religious job? I feel in my work I am giving my whole self, and that this is for God, even though it is not a religious job. And this seems unrelated to my money - I earn money from my job but the money is still God's, really, because surely all I have, as well as all I am, is God's.

Posted by jugular (# 4174) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
I think if I were clergy, with my own parish, I'd give more to the parish, but as it is, as a regular lay person, I feel led to give more of my money to help people in third world countries who are starving, or who need education - that sort of thing.

My philosophy is that the tithe is the minimum to give away. I give 10% to my parish, and about another 6% to other charities and causes. I still think 16% is too little, but its commensurate with my current financial state. I do teach my congregation that its the giving that is important, not the recipient - but anecdotal evidence suggests that people who don't give to their parish don't give to other groups either.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Speaking from a lay perspective, it seems entirely bizarre to me that a clergy person would tithe to their own parish, or anyone else's. They are doing their part in supporting the church by their work, which demands a huge sacrifice of their personhood, and in return receiving the wherewithall to live. To then have to give part of that back seems quite bizarre. The labourer is worth their hire, to quote someone or other.....

The parallel would be the person who is involved in everything the church does, should that person give [i]less[i] than the person who merely warms a pew on Sunday?

I wonder too, does anyone else donate money to their workplace. Church is a special underpaid occupation (at least all the clergy I know get paid rather poorly) where you give back to your work? But then church is special is it?

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Speaking from a lay perspective, it seems entirely bizarre to me that a clergy person would tithe to their own parish, or anyone else's. They are doing their part in supporting the church by their work, which demands a huge sacrifice of their personhood, and in return receiving the wherewithall to live. To then have to give part of that back seems quite bizarre. The labourer is worth their hire, to quote someone or other.....
The parallel would be the person who is involved in everything the church does, should that person give [i]less[i] than the person who merely warms a pew on Sunday?

I wonder too, does anyone else donate money to their workplace. Church is a special underpaid occupation (at least all the clergy I know get paid rather poorly) where you give back to your work? But then church is special is it?

It doesn't seem hypocritical to ask the congregation for money to help pay you, and not give any of your own money back? It would to me. (All "you" generic!)

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

I wonder too, does anyone else donate money to their workplace. Church is a special underpaid occupation (at least all the clergy I know get paid rather poorly) where you give back to your work? But then church is special is it?

In a previous existence, I did some voluntary work for a charity, and got to know its employees quite well. Almost every one of them put in a substantial amount of additional voluntary effort for various fundraising activities. I don't know how many of them made direct cash gifts, but it wouldn't surprise me if they all did.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
It doesn't seem hypocritical to ask the congregation for money to help pay you, and not give any of your own money back? It would to me. (All "you" generic!)

This raises the question I often feel when the offering is brought forward and I have to say a prayer of dedication over it. Usually this is along the lines of thanking God for his goodness to us, and praying that the gifts will be used for his service and glory. But I know that much of it will be used to pay my stipend (which, in the Baptist setting, is paid directly by the Church rather than indirectly through Parish Share and the like). I wonder how many of the congregation make the connection?

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

I wonder too, does anyone else donate money to their workplace. Church is a special underpaid occupation (at least all the clergy I know get paid rather poorly) where you give back to your work? But then church is special is it?
In a previous existence, I did some voluntary work for a charity, and got to know its employees quite well. Almost every one of them put in a substantial amount of additional voluntary effort for various fundraising activities. I don't know how many of them made direct cash gifts, but it wouldn't surprise me if they all did.

Many people give in the ways they can to various causes including the church. I know lay folk whose finances are too tight to give much but being un or under employed give of the time they are richer in than others.

And how often do people give in non cash ways - baking for church events, buying something without claiming expenses, printing on home machines etc.

Clergy also find ourselves doing and buying things without claiming because it just needed to be done, we knew the church funds were low, or....

So the cash in and out books don't account for all that is offered.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Never mind the clergy, what about paid church "servants"? I get paid far, far less than our house-for-duty half-time only parish priest although I put in significantly more hours and don't get a house. But I'm always being badgered for stewardship money, etc.

And the PP is quite capable of advising wedding couples not to advise about a wedding video because "they're poor and can't afford the extra fee" - which is part of my income [Mad]

On the whole I agree that it is bizarre to expect clergy to donate to their employer, I just wish parishes applied that common-sense approach to organists and vergers.

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :

[tangent]

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

And the PP is quite capable of advising wedding couples not to advise about a wedding video because "they're poor and can't afford the extra fee" - which is part of my income

That's theft - surely it's worth having words with the Musicians' Union about that.
If they can't afford the video, including proper fees to the organist and/or any other musicians, they should be advised not to have the video, rather than to have it then lie by omission. Who in the world ever watches their wedding video anyway?
[/tangent]

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I wonder too, does anyone else donate money to their workplace. Church is a special underpaid occupation (at least all the clergy I know get paid rather poorly) where you give back to your work? But then church is special is it?

I guess it depends on the type of workplace - I've found it happens in care type jobs, and jobs working with children, for instance. I work in a very underpaid job where many of us do donate money to our work, and we do fundraising events too, in our own time, that we don't get paid for. I work with severely disabled children. I guess a lot of the staff care about the children in a way that goes beyond just going to work and earning money - you kind of have to in a job like this, because the pay is so low it wouldn't be worth it otherwise.

I guess the giving aspect is less structured than a church setting - it's not so much donating money into an offering box, or setting aside a tithe or anything, but it's more buying things with our own money to give to the children, to use in the classroom, and volunteering our time in fundraising events, and also spending our own money in these fundraising events, such as buying things like raffle tickets, etc.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

I wonder too, does anyone else donate money to their workplace. Church is a special underpaid occupation (at least all the clergy I know get paid rather poorly) where you give back to your work? But then church is special is it?

Teachers routinely buy resources to use in the classroom. In some schools there might be a budget to buy games, etc. but this won't necessarily cover everything you might want to buy. In any case, if you move schools you might want to take some of this stuff with you, especially since what works for one teacher might not work for another.

EFL and ESOL teachers routinely have to buy or use their own materials to supplement what might be a very dull course book, since some language schools are reluctant to spend their profits on this kind of thing.

[ 23. July 2013, 01:12: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:

I wonder too, does anyone else donate money to their workplace. Church is a special underpaid occupation (at least all the clergy I know get paid rather poorly) where you give back to your work? But then church is special is it?
Teachers routinely buy resources to use in the classroom.

Yes - I did that regularly over 35 years as an RE teacher.

[ 23. July 2013, 17:33: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

fwiw, We tithe, but only about 40% of our tithe goes to the church where I serve, the rest being divided among another church I attend regularly and some mission and humanitarian aid organizations we support.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

No Prophet asks:

quote:
I wonder too, does anyone else donate money to their workplace. Church is a special underpaid occupation (at least all the clergy I know get paid rather poorly) where you give back to your work? But then church is special is it?

A surprising number of people, although it perhaps tends to be more in the human services sector. Almost everyone I know who is employed in shelters, humane societies, human rights stuff, etc., regularly donates to their employers. I think they all assist in fundraising efforts in their own time. I am aware of several who make provision in their wills in favour of their employers. One of my former public service colleagues, on departing this mortal coil, was found to have left a twelfth of his substance to the national deficit reduction fund.

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