Ship of Fools: Children and gender biased play

Thread: Children and gender biased play Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by chive (# 208) on :

Sorry for the crap title but I couldn't think of what to call this thread.

I recently spent a few days with my nephew (3 3/4 - the 3/4 is very important) and my niece (2 1/2) and I was very interested in the way they were treated and they played.

My sister and brother in law are good enough parents, they care deeply for the kids, love them to bits and spend as much time as two working people can. However I was interested in how the two were treated differently and I was wondering how much is nature and how much nurture.

My nephew loves all sports, can ride a bike brilliantly and runs everywhere. He likes to climb hills, play with his cars (I now know all about Lightening McQueen) and is desperate to be a told he's a big boy.

My niece has no interest in any kind of sport, adores Minnie Mouse, dolls houses, shoes and anything pink. If asked to pick clothes it was always be pink clothes. She is desperate to be told she's a pretty girlie.

I abhor sexism. Indeed I went into a major strop at the supermarket when I saw a dinosaur sticker book being advertised for boys and a princess one for girls. I don't believe that there is a traditional role that girls or boys should fill and they should do what they like.

However, I see my nephew and niece and see that they fall into almost every gender stereotype there is. Is this normal? Should this be challenged? Or do kids naturally go through phases when they are very girlie or very boyey?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Based on my experience, kids definitely go through phases where they learn what society thinks gender is and try to express it, but a huge amount is up to the parents. My daughter has always liked lightening mcqueen, and has always had a moderate interest in dinosaurs. Currently she's intensely into superheros too. However, she is also regularly a princess and likes pink a good deal. I have strongly supported the superhero craze as in her social crowd everyone seems to either be into princesses or superheros (there may be other options for boys, I'm not sure, don't seem to be for girls.) Note that except for the princess thing I have never consciously encouraged or discouraged any gender expression or trait currently associated with one gender or the other. However, I have no tv* and multiple gender-queer friends, some in more outre ways than others, so definitely Goblin gets input that is different from what the average kid gets.

*Mind, she does watch videos on youtube, but most of the worst tripe she doesn't know exists.

Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on :

I have a Grandson, also aged 3 3/4. His favourite toys for some time have been his collection of unicorns and ponies, many of them pink or mauve.

Posted by WhyNotSmile (# 14126) on :

I help out with a parent and toddler group, and I'm fascinated by this. I would never think to encourage a boy to play with a different toy from a girl, but have been surprised when I've seen parents take a toy pram away from a boy and give him building blocks instead, that kind of thing.

As far as I can tell, left to their own devices, most of the children would happily play with any toy - some of the girls prefer dolls, but so do some of the boys. The boys would tend to be a bit more boisterous, though, in general - if they have a pram, there's a fair chance the doll inside will be tipped out as they race round a corner.

There's also a difference in how some parents speak to their children. Girls will be told they're pretty, looking nice today, wearing nice shoes etc. Boys will be told they're big and strong. I make a point of trying not to do that - I'll encourage the girls to show off their muscles and I'll tell the boys I like their shoes. They always seem equally pleased.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

What scares me the most is not how parents talk to their children, though I see why that's scary! What gets me is how everyone else talks to one's children. How can we create reasonable non-sexist worlds for our children when conversations like the following happen over and over:

Person: Look at him climbing over that support, he's so smart!
Me: She, but thanks!
Person: I'm sorry! I meant she's so pretty!

Used to get that all the time with my daughter because her hair didn't really grow in until she was almost two.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

It's an interesting question.

My younger child was always more physically active than my elder; trying to keep up, I think. If the elder one climbed to the top of the climbing frame, the younger one was never far behind. The younger was far more of a dare-devil. This seems to be true of a number of sibling pairings I know, so I think birth order comes into it.

In my case, my son is the elder and my daughter the younger, which I see is also the case with your nephew and niece, but my daughter was always the more physically active.

My sons favourite colour at 3 3/4 was pink. He had lots of small pink stuff; his toothbrush was always pink, for example. He continued to like pink up until he hit the teenage head-to-foot-in-black stage. His sister loathed and abhorred anything pink, always did and still does.

That said, book-wise, they split into more gender stereotypes. He loved Thomas the Tank engine and she loved books about fluffy kittens. Also, my daughter loved crafts; if she had a friend round to play, the chances were that they'd both spend the time sitting quietly at a table, assembling Hama beads, whereas if my son had a friend round, the noise levels went through the roof.

I was determined to bring my children up gender-neutral, but I'm not sure that it's that easy. It's hard to step back from day-to-day parenting and look at the bigger picture.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I have strongly supported the superhero craze as in her social crowd everyone seems to either be into princesses or superheros (there may be other options for boys, I'm not sure, don't seem to be for girls.)

Miss Cniht has never liked princesses (because they're "silly, and don't do anything", but isn't interested in superheroes either. She is animal-crazy, though (loves playing with actual animals, reading fiction featuring animal characters, imaginative play with cuddly toy animals etc.) A couple of her friends are very much girly girls (one in particular is guaranteed to show up in sparkly shoes and a pretty dress to play in the back yard).

Posted by Talitha (# 5085) on :

My daughter (just turned 3) loves cars, trains, emergency vehicles, etc and is very physically active and good at climbing. She has no interest in baby dolls, and only a small interest in princesses (she just likes to recognise and know the names of some of the Disney ones, but probably wouldn't know what to do with a doll or dress-up outfit of one).

Gwai, I'm shocked at that playground exchange ("I'm sorry! I meant she's so pretty!"). I've never heard anything like that.

At the toddler groups we go to, boys put on sparkly shoes and push prams and girls play with cars and everyone seems fine with that.

I guess there probably is a tendency for children to like toys aimed at their own gender more than chance, but it's certainly not universal.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

My nephew was policed by his peers when he turned up at school - boys don't do that, he was told, and ceased from whatever it was at school, and at home.

Tricky to be neutral.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Yes, we see that same social policing, but K's pretty independent, so I manage to counter it successfully usually. "So and so says that boys don't like pink." Then I remind her of Benjamin who is both rather masculine and has dyed pink hair, etc. I should say reminded, because these days she's pretty into self-determination and intentionally wears un-matching clothes because she can.

Posted by argona (# 14037) on :

Random memories of socialisation when my kids were small...

The birthday party I took my daughter to, three boys present, the friend's brother and two of his friends invited to keep him company. Talking and playing happily until someone commented loudly on how good 'the boys' were being, whereupon their ears pricked up and they started playing up.

The mother at a toddler group who smiled approvingly while her little boy bullied other children and snatched the toys they were playing with.

The little boy who slugged a little girl and made her cry. The boy's childminder apologised to the girl's mother, who replied 'That's all right, it's not as if a girl did it.'

Oh, and my daughter, was she about 9 at the time? Told me how she and her friends beheaded a barbie doll with a kitchen knife. Some sort of rite of passage.

Nature and nurture, you can't disentangle them with anecdotes.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Parents can aim for gender neutral, but IME, societal influence can counter some of this. Keeping grandparents in line can be an issue as well.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

I have two children, a girl who is nearly five, and a boy who is nearly two.

I have always been of the opinion that the vast majority of supposed gendered 'preferences' or 'instincts' are simply picked up by children from their interactions and their environments (they are learning machines at this age, after all), and not due to their apportionment of chromosomes.

My daughter, up until about three and a half, was not a 'typical' girl at all, as the stereotypes go. She has always been very physical in her play. Her best friends were always boys, she had no interest in princesses or fairies, preferred real ponies to pink plastic ones, determinedly stuck to green as her favorite colour, and above all, liked to play with and in anything that was wet or messy. Sand, dirt, clay, goop, water - combinations of these... Then she very abruptly changed to be 'all girly', wants to only wear pink and purple, obsessed with princesses and sparkly things - the works. I sort of have the feeling that it has been a conscious change on her part, though. She has figured out that girls and boys are different, and that she is a girl, and she is now going to great lengths to define herself as one. I don't like it much, but I think I might make it worse by objecting, so we just run with it most of the time and hope it will run its course.

My son is of course too young to know anything about gender stereotypes. He has always seemed to me to be the 'softer' of the two, though (and that is not intended to be pejorative). He is quieter, less outgoing, more reserved, slower to pick things up - walked later. Much more timid of strangers, animals, new situations. Loves cuddly toys and books about teddies, etc. Who knows how all this will turn out - he's still so young. The one thing about him I really can't explain - by either social stereotyping or something 'genetic' (how could such a thing be genetic), is his overmastering obsession mechanical things. Truck! Digger! Motorbike! Bus! Train! Tractor! Life is all about spotting these things and drawing others' attention to them. It's almost like he learned to talk in order to say these words. You can do something like go to the zoo, and he is more interested in the ride-on lawnmower that he sees there, than any of the animals... what is with that?

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

It seems to me that gendered clothing and toys increase consumer spending. Ideally, I wanted my first child to have say, pyjamas / T shirts / jogging trousers etc in a cheerful primary colour with perhaps stripes, spots or an animal motif which could be passed down to siblings of either gender and thence onwards to their younger cousins.

Manufacturers know that if they push gendered colour clothing, then parents will end up buying two sets of clothes if they have opposite sex children. Even worse are motifs relevant to the latest Disney release or TV fad, which are not only gendered but date very quickly.

I think that clothing has become more polarised between khaki for boys and pink for girls, especially at the cheaper end of the market, and that this is largely a cynical marketing ploy.

The same goes for Lego. Generations of children have played perfectly happily with primary coloured Lego. But now there is "Lego Friends" in pinks and purples; suddenly a mixed-sex family "needs" two sets of Lego where one was plenty ten years ago.

Posted by argona (# 14037) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Keeping grandparents in line can be an issue as well.

Yes! My brother's mother-in-law threw a wobbler when she saw his son in pink pyjamas.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Many years ago in a child psychology class I recall a video which showed boys and girls playing with little cars. They seemed to be enjoying the play. Now, while the girls made motor sounds, they were not like the boys who were making sounds as if the cars were going through gear changes, revving their motors, screeching brakes and the like. The girls did not do that.

I wonder if that is still the case today.

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

Not a parent, but an aunt and great-aunt checking in here. Things have definitely gone downhill in the toy and clothes departments since the 80s.

In the 80s, we were able to buy gender-neutral toys and clothes for nieces and nephews without any trouble. It's almost impossible today for great nieces and nephews. And the fact it's so prevalent does make it difficult to go against sterotype, for fear of what the parents(ie, now, my nieces and nephews) might feel - we don't want to upset Nephew A by buying a 'boy's' toy for his little girl. And then there is Niece B's husband, who is very strict about gender roles - we might not agree, but don't want to fall out.

As they get older, it is a bit easier, as it becomes more apparent what sort of things the children are interested in. But we find it a minefield.

M.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I would think that boys toys for a girl would be less of a problem than girls toys for a boy - they put all the science stuff in the male department, for example. Do they put cooking sets in the girls? I would think a small baking set (of the sort that can really produce actual cooked food) might go the other way OK in some families*, but otherwise I can't think of much in the pink aisles of good play value to anyone.

*Wrapped up in images of Jamie, and James, and Gordon(?) and Heston etc.....

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by Gramps 49:

quote:
Now, while the girls made motor sounds, they were not like the boys who were making sounds as if the cars were going through gear changes, revving their motors, screeching brakes and the like. The girls did not do that.

I wonder if that is still the case today.

Real driving ought to involve "motor sounds" but not engine revving or, except in extreme cases, screeching brakes.

It sounds as though the girls were going to grow up to be the better drivers, [Biased]

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

I have two boys and we encouraged them to have a mix of toys and colours, we had a huge rag doll called Barry who was my eldest's companion til he was about 4 and we had a doll's pushchair too (ELC actually had a pushchair aimed at the boy audience, it was the inevitable blue rather than pink like their other one [Roll Eyes]

) we later passed the pushchair on to another boy. School does make a huge impact on gender stereotyping, but we found that our children differed in their susceptibility. My eldest, who is of a serious scientific bent, was unconcerned about conforming to type and has no horror of pink whereas my creative and artistic youngest worries far more about how he looks to others and has a horror of supposedly girls things, despite by nature being more drawn to them (he would be horrified to see his toddler collection of My Little Ponies now, let alone the handbags). He still loves his cuddly toys at age 9 and has channelled his love of pretty things into collecting rocks and fossils. He has long hair and for some reason doesn't associate this with girls though he gets very cross when mistaken for one (as he often is as he generally wears bright clothes).
My boy are as now of the age to be obsessed by computers, and the youngest still has lego (that new lego aimed at girls makes me cringe!), he is also interested in fashion and cares far more about how he looks than his brother, which I'm guessing is his more arty nature showing through.
We don't have a TV either and I definitely think this is helpful in reducing the gender stereotyping, with our eldest iPlayer wasn't around either so that might help explain his more relaxed attitude.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Definately blue and Action Man for boys and pink and My Little Pony for girls.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

...fol de rol...

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

My two (girl and boy) are now teenagers. They seem to have survived having me as the main caregiver. I didn't go a bundle on "dolls!" and "cars!" - we have about two sacks full of wooden Brio train set, enough to cover our admittedly large living carpet, and that kept the pair of them busy, building villages and telling stories with the little figures. Yes, there were dolls and doll houses - they both played with them. Yes, there were cars and trucks - they both played with those too.

Now at 15 and 13, the Girl has a reasonably robust attitude to life and isn't afraid to get dirty, and the Boy has very long hair and is an excellent cook.

You can't dictate what they play with (okay, you can, but that doesn't end well). Give them lots of options, don't sweat it if they choose something you wouldn't have, and realise that a lot of the expensive pieces of plastic are going to be forgotten in a year's time.

My two are turning out to be reasonably decent human beings. Which is nice.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Heavenly anarchist:

quote:
He has long hair

Doc Tor :

quote:
the Boy has very long hair

My son, too; it's wavy and just below shoulder length when dry, but almost waist length when wet and combed straight.

Interesting that three of the posters on this thread have long haired sons. Somebody at church has suggested that we encourage him to get it cut, but I joked that it's a subconscious response to spending every Sunday morning looking at our stained glass Crucifiction window, with its long-haired Jesus.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Heavenly anarchist:
quote:
He has long hair
Doc Tor :
quote:
the Boy has very long hair
My son, too; it's wavy and just below shoulder length when dry, but almost waist length when wet and combed straight.

Interesting that three of the posters on this thread have long haired sons. Somebody at church has suggested that we encourage him to get it cut, but I joked that it's a subconscious response to spending every Sunday morning looking at our stained glass Crucifiction window, with its long-haired Jesus.

I had long hair at, and after, university (because it was cheaper than getting it cut), but by the time the boy turned up, I'd had it cut short, because, you know, creeping baldness.

His school doesn't mind, his judo instructor doesn't mind. He keeps it tied back for sport, science and cooking. It is, to be fair, an astonishing red-blond colour so probably worth making the most of before it all falls out.

I certainly get far fewer 'he should get it cut' comments than my mum did about me, and it's indicative of a less gender-stereotyped age.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Long hair, short hair, shaven heads are no-one else's business but the boy or girl concerned, IMHO.

Just so long as it is neat and clean. Or polished. [Biased]

As a grumpy elder person, I am dismayed by the current trends in his and her toys.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

We have a boy aged 8, a girl aged 5 and a 2 year old boy. The girl has always been interested in Disney princesses from as long as we can remember; she hates cars etc. The older boy likes Lego, football, Star Wars, nerf guns and cars but is a sensitive guy as well. The younger boy is much more 'gung-ho' and boisterous. He also likes cars, cowboys, Star Wars etc but I have also seen him playing with some of our daughter's 'pink' toys. We have not done anything to encourage any of this; it's just the way they are.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Our son gets very few negative comments, and has had old bald men telling him to make the most of it while he can. One wee dumpy woman in her 60s said he reminded her of her husband, when they were dating in the 1970s. Quite misty-eyed she was. Allegedly her husband (bald bloke in anorak) had been quite the heart-throb back in the day.

So do we think that colour (pink for girls / blue for boys) has become more gendered, but hairstyles less so?

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

In western culture, colour seems to have become more gendered once again.

In other cultures all colours are worn cheerfully and indiscriminately by anyone.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Long hair for men seems to be coming back into fashion. I do know a teenage boy who's just had his hair cut after years of having it long, though. Not sure whether he was responding to peer pressure or just got fed up of washing and combing it.

For those who believe that long hair is a sign of effeminacy, I direct your attention to this guy...

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Long hair by itself isn't effeminate, no. It entirely depends upon the person in question as to whether or not it's poncy.

[ 12. July 2013, 10:20: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]

Posted by Pommie Mick (# 12794) on :

Pushing this 'gender neutrality' line with children is as concerning to me as rigidly gendered toys.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Likewise.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
In western culture, colour seems to have become more gendered once again.

In other cultures all colours are worn cheerfully and indiscriminately by anyone.

Colour seems to have gone into reverse more recently. It's really only pink and blue for tinies it seems.

For adults, women have always been able to wear pretty much any colour. Pink was a slightly "off" colour for men, though not universally. Pink shirts were always generally acceptable, and for those who have to wear formal shirts every day, at least one pink or pink & white shirt was likely to be a part of the "well-dressed gentleman's" wardrobe. Then there was the recent vogue for red trousers which now seems to have moved on to pink. It's pretty well been reclaimed it seems, though as all this is simply culturally based, it's likely to vary from culture to culture.

Doc Tor wrote:

quote:
I certainly get far fewer 'he should get it cut' comments than my mum did about me, and it's indicative of a less gender-stereotyped age.

I was with you until this bit. There's a load of stuff that's more gendered now than it was when I was young, though some things have become less or non-gendered. Some of these things are listed in the earlier posts above.

And if you go back to the Georgian period, then the concept of gender for children was non-existent in England at least. It really is that recent an intrusion I think. Which is not to say that there are not differences between the sexes in the way they play etc., but it's fearfully difficult to disentangle that when you get parental expectation and then peer-group pressure kicking in.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

I'm wearing a pink shirt today, FWIW

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Definately blue and Action Man for boys and pink and My Little Pony for girls.

Twas ever thus. Well. Maybe since the 40s

quote:
a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw’s Infants’ Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”

Apparently the whole mad gender colours thing in the USA/UK wasn't really established until the 1940s.

Wikipedia on pink in gender.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

My 2c is that you shouldn't make a big deal out of ridding your house of all gender stereotypes. As my Aunt said, if you don't let your girls have some pink and pretty things then they'll end up like Barbara Cartland when they do get their own way.

I'd say let the kids play with what interests them and don't ban anything unless there's a health or genuine ideological reason (eg shooting games etc) BUT encourage your girls to take an interest in dinosaurs and bulldozers, talk to them show them and play with these things with them. I was horrified to see the OP say the girl wasn't interested in any sport. Sport shouldn't be seen as a boy thing, definitely find sports that the girl can do-get her outside throwing and kicking a ball NOW. Ballet is a good idea for the pink mad girl but I'd strongly encourage a sport as well.

it is harder with boys but I think it's good to encourage them to be caring and nurturing by letting them care for teddy bears and to put them in prams and cots etc Similarly encourage them in quieter activities like puzzles and playdough (when they're young enough for it)

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Long hair by itself isn't effeminate, no. It entirely depends upon the person in question as to whether or not it's poncy.

Words like poncy that insult a whole group of people are right out. Don't.

Also, others who seem tempted should be reminded that accusing someone of being a troll is forbidden outside of Hell.

Gwai,
Purg Host

Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :

My son is 1. I'm the sort of person who complains to stores about gendered toys, tweets to companies if I think their stuff is rubbish (google girls and boys magnetic words if you really want to be depressed) and had no problem dressing my son in pink-trimmed babygros we'd inherited. I told the library their books were sexist ('Whose hat?', where the men are superheros, and the girls fret about their appreance, is my recent problem one). I like it when people ask if he's a girl so I get to reply 'no, tell me is it the outfit, or is it the pink cup he's drinking out of you have a problem with?'.

His favorite toy at the moment is a plastic car, a ball, and of his five discernable sounds, one is unmistakeably 'car noise', picked up from a noisy jigsaw he has. I'm sure he'll also go through a pink and doll stage (well, I hope not, I never went through a doll stage so I hope he doesn't), but it has made me think (even harder) about what toys he has.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

When my daughters were small I used to tell them to do what they wanted as long as it was not dangerous, destructive or wrong. They should not worry about whether something was supposed to be for boys or girls, or about something that was supposed to be for an younger or older child.

I gulped silently when my eight-year-old wanted a toy that was marketed to five-year-olds. However, I bought it for her, and she played with it in a far more sophisticated manner than a younger child would have.

Every child needs to follow his/her natural bent. Otherwise they can't reach their potential.

Moo

Posted by Erik (# 11406) on :

I have a 2-year old boy. We generally try to leave the decisions about toys and clothing colours up to him. He goes for both cars/building and pushchairs etc.

While I am happy about this I am often bemused by the response of others. We have had a number of comments about us allowing him to have pink wellies (he was given the choise and picked them),etc, and also about his hair length (when wet it comes quite far down his neck but when dry is very curly). This always leaves me feeling quite uncomfortable. I think being able to play with or wear whatever he wants is a good thing but sometimes wonder if I am setting him up for bullying when he gets older.

As for pushchairs/prams being girly- I often push him in the pushchair. Why should this be a girly activity when all dads I know do it?

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

ferijen:

quote:
I told the library their books were sexist ('Whose hat?', where the men are superheros, and the girls fret about their appreance, is my recent problem one).

It's not entirely the library's fault; they can only buy what's been published. And although there are a lot of good books out there, quite a lot of the others do have sexist stereotypes in them... I hope you complain to the publisher too.

I think North-East Quine has nailed it; it's a cynical marketing ploy to (potentially) double the amount of money parents have to spend on their children.

My girl is planning to repaint her bedroom this summer - pink is Too Babyish and she no longer plays with her Barbies (not even Headless Monster Barbie). She's leaning towards blue at the moment.

[ 12. July 2013, 12:45: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

quote:
I never went through a doll stage so I hope he doesn't...

Boys do have dolls. Action Man is a doll. Buzz Lightyear is a doll. Train sets are not scale models; they are toys for grown-up men.

You'll never get them to admit it, though. [Devil]

And actually, why shouldn't boys play with dolls and pushchairs if they see their fathers changing nappies and taking babies on outings?

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

A friend of mine gave her toddler a pushchair and doll, mostly to deflect him from playing enthusiastically but clumsily with his newborn brother.

At the baby clinic, one woman accused him of having "stolen" a little girl's pushchair. My friend confirmed that it was his, and that he was playing at being "daddy."

At which point the woman claimed that little boys who play at being daddies grow up gay. Apparently she thought that if little boys see their fathers in the "husband and father" role, it confuses them. [Ultra confused]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

[Ultra confused]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erik:
While I am happy about this I am often bemused by the response of others. We have had a number of comments about us allowing him to have pink wellies (he was given the choise and picked them),etc, and also about his hair length (when wet it comes quite far down his neck but when dry is very curly). This always leaves me feeling quite uncomfortable. I think being able to play with or wear whatever he wants is a good thing but sometimes wonder if I am setting him up for bullying when he gets older

In my experience, it's not the confident kids that get bullied. If you teach your son to be confident, I bet he's fine. Besides, once he's a little older, you can always warn him that that choice will be non-normative. If you do it right, there's no reason he will feel you want him to make the normative choice all the time.

For instance, my daughter (Goblin) knows that there are times when I ask her to match. However, a couple days ago (hot summer day), she wore a long sleeved camo shirt, a delicate red velvet shoulder cover (for wearing with sleeveless dresses) and a bright pink skirt. It was bizarre, but since she was going to play with a friend and could change back when she wanted, all I said is "I don't mind if you don't mind, but that totally doesn't match." She said okay and met her friend looking like that.

Peer pressure in general does concern me though. Goblin does sometimes change for this friend because said friend pressures her to wear dresses and sadly she likes to confirm to that. Still, I've shut up about that and she's getting more into tough girl clothes again on her own.

[ 12. July 2013, 13:42: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

There is history in this: it is not all that long ago that pink was the accepted colour for little boys to wear, at least in America ...

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I'm a boy, and when I was a critter I liked nothing more than playing house and putting my teddy bear in diapers so I could wheel him around in my toy dump truck. His name, it won't interest you to know, was "Friend."

Boyhowdy did elementary school ever hammer those habits out of me.

[ 12. July 2013, 13:49: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I have a nice pair of Victorian china milkmaid and dairy lad - she is in blue, he is in pink. It's interesting that the colour was thought to be strong back then.

I had a teachers' assistant who was into serious pink - to the extent of hub caps on her car, and I thought that an attempt to sell pink tool sets to women was an infantilisation. But my sister thought it would be a good idea as her friend and neighbour was always borrowing her tools, and he might remember to return them if they were pink.

There was a song in, I think, "Funny Face" in which a fashionista was pushing pink as the new colour. It would not have been done if it was so general as it is now.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I'm a big boy, but I still laugh at the story of when I used to used to wear pink shirts quite a lot for work, and some NZ clients (male) would visibly go pale, and say, oh man, what the hell is that? They were appalled that a bloke would wear pink. I guess this is antipodean hardcore machismo?

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Malala chose to wear pink for her speech at the UN. I'm not criticising the choice. It's the Victorian sort of strong interpretation.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I would think that boys toys for a girl would be less of a problem than girls toys for a boy - they put all the science stuff in the male department, for example.

These days, you seem to get "boy science", which is making fake snot, slime and the like, and "girl science" which is basically nail art.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Yuurch.

To both.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

As a child (early to mid 90s) I wore clothes of all colours and played with toys of all genders - and my favourites (lego, painting/drawing, animal toys) were gender-neutral. What is striking to me is the lack of character brands - the only ones I remember being on my clothes or toys are Disney characters, Polly Pocket and the old style My Little Pony. Much less than kids have now.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm wearing a pink shirt today, FWIW

I misread this the first time as a pink skirt.

John

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'm wearing a pink shirt today, FWIW

Not to work I hope. Pink shirts at the weekend perhaps, but not to work. White always, perhaps with an interesting weave, but not coloured.

Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm a big boy, but I still laugh at the story of when I used to used to wear pink shirts quite a lot for work, and some NZ clients (male) would visibly go pale, and say, oh man, what the hell is that? They were appalled that a bloke would wear pink. I guess this is antipodean hardcore machismo?

My brother managed to shock the daylights out of my dad in his late teens when he bought himself three pastel shirts (pink, yellow and green) and had his hair permed (it was the early 90s). I remember thinking it was one of the most interesting things my brother had ever done. At the time he and my mum owned a café and he spent most of his time cooking.

He's a basic bloke type, though, and generally conformist. Dunno what that says about the antipodean male.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

I like light pink shirts but have never worn one because on one level they always remind me of Martin Bormann. Bormann was Hitler's secretary and in group shots of Nazis he can sometimes be seen wearing a bright pink shirt under his Iron Cross. While he's not an un-macho example, he also someone I'd rather not follow in the style stakes (or any other stakes).

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

[Eek!]

Godwin's Law is applied in the most unlikely places nowadays...

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

My husband wears pink shirts but most of his work shirts are floral. This causes little comment here in the UK (he works in the technology field) but he says they caused lots of surprise and comment when he spent two weeks working in a factory in Japan. But the Japan visit was also odd in that they took their business guests out on a trip to an all-male naked thermal spa on a volcano - no female managers or senior engineers in their factory.
I think my children have been very much influenced by what their father wears and does. He is also a keen baker and can sew (I'm a textile artist so lots of sewing in this house) so they get a well rounded view of capabilities, not just science input from him.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Malala chose to wear pink for her speech at the UN. I'm not criticising the choice. It's the Victorian sort of strong interpretation.

I believe she was wearing a scarf which belonged to Benazir Bhutto. So perhaps her choice was no more than matching the rest of her clothing to that.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Godwin's Law is applied in the most unlikely places nowadays...

I think it's more one of those childhood picture association things. As a child growing up in the 1980s, I didn't see men wearing pink shirts except for in photos of Bormann in history books. I should break the link and go and buy myself some - I actually like light pink shirts.

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Malala chose to wear pink for her speech at the UN. I'm not criticising the choice. It's the Victorian sort of strong interpretation.
I believe she was wearing a scarf which belonged to Benazir Bhutto. So perhaps her choice was no more than matching the rest of her clothing to that.

And perhaps she just happens to like the colour?

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

According to the Daily Wail, Matt has the right idea, wearing a pink shirt.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

I'm considering buying myself a Hornby train set as I was never allowed to have one nor play with my brother's set as a child. I was told that it was a boy's toy and to go and play instead with my dolls. My impression as an adult is that men are more sensitive about gender roles than women are - this is apparent in my grandchildrens' fathers but the mothers are much more easy going.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Anglican't:

quote:
I should break the link and go and buy myself some - I actually like light pink shirts.

Go for it! I think most men look good in light pink shirts, but I haven't been able to persuade my husband (yet) - he prefers blue or communistic red.

And surely by wearing a light pink shirt you are disagreeing with the Nazis - ISTR they were very keen on strictly defined gender roles?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm considering buying myself a Hornby train set as I was never allowed to have one nor play with my brother's set as a child. I was told that it was a boy's toy and to go and play instead with my dolls. My impression as an adult is that men are more sensitive about gender roles than women are - this is apparent in my grandchildrens' fathers but the mothers are much more easy going.

Some men.

I'm struggling to think of any "women's" roles that doesn't have any number of good male role models being successful in that field. The converse is unfortunately less true - though it's a lot better than when I was young.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
My husband wears pink shirts but most of his work shirts are floral. This causes little comment here in the UK (he works in the technology field) but he says they caused lots of surprise and comment when he spent two weeks working in a factory in Japan. But the Japan visit was also odd in that they took their business guests out on a trip to an all-male naked thermal spa on a volcano - no female managers or senior engineers in their factory.
I think my children have been very much influenced by what their father wears and does. He is also a keen baker and can sew (I'm a textile artist so lots of sewing in this house) so they get a well rounded view of capabilities, not just science input from him.

Does he like Boden's menswear? I always associate pink and floral shirts on men with places like Boden and Joules.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
My husband wears pink shirts but most of his work shirts are floral. This causes little comment here in the UK (he works in the technology field) but he says they caused lots of surprise and comment when he spent two weeks working in a factory in Japan. But the Japan visit was also odd in that they took their business guests out on a trip to an all-male naked thermal spa on a volcano - no female managers or senior engineers in their factory.
I think my children have been very much influenced by what their father wears and does. He is also a keen baker and can sew (I'm a textile artist so lots of sewing in this house) so they get a well rounded view of capabilities, not just science input from him.
Does he like Boden's menswear? I always associate pink and floral shirts on men with places like Boden and Joules.

We've never shopped in either, they tend to be from high street stores likes Debenhams, Next or John Lewis. Several from John Lewis as they also sell Liberty print shirts and we are rather obsessed with textile design.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm considering buying myself a Hornby train set as I was never allowed to have one nor play with my brother's set as a child. I was told that it was a boy's toy and to go and play instead with my dolls. My impression as an adult is that men are more sensitive about gender roles than women are - this is apparent in my grandchildrens' fathers but the mothers are much more easy going.

Alas, Hornby is not the quality it was when we were younger. I'd be looking at Marklin if I were you..

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

When my youngest son was around 7, he made his teacher laugh one day when he watched her re-apply her lipstick and said, 'I like a bit of make up myself, but the others laugh at you and call you a girl.' At the time I just smiled at the story, but now I wish I'd asked her when she was going to lead a topic on gender stereotyping.

Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm considering buying myself a Hornby train set as I was never allowed to have one nor play with my brother's set as a child. I was told that it was a boy's toy and to go and play instead with my dolls. My impression as an adult is that men are more sensitive about gender roles than women are - this is apparent in my grandchildrens' fathers but the mothers are much more easy going.
Alas, Hornby is not the quality it was when we were younger. I'd be looking at Marklin if I were you..

Bib, I feel sorry for you. I did have a train set, and a wind up London red bus with a bell which went ding. Also quite a large delivery truck made for me by my grandfather, matchbox toys including a Jaguar car and a matching caravan for it. My grandfather also made other toys which were possibly considered boys' toys but were made for me.

I had one doll only in my childhood and wasn't particularly upset when my younger brother smashed it.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

In the unintended consequences, there's a boom in construction toy sets "for girls" with many parts painted pink. Apparently there are enough fathers taking care of their small daughters that they buy the toy sets and miniature pink back hoes for their daughters.

Your mileage may vary as the saying goes.
Hmmm no pink smiley [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I was given a choice between train set and dolls, and went for the latter.

We didn't inherit my Dad's Hornby and Mamod engine, as his mother gave it away during the war. With his Meccano.

I did have a succession of Bayko sets, and, trying to complete the last level, went to a house where a set had been advertised for sale in the local paper. "Would you like the Meccano?" the elderly couple asked. And I bought that too. They apologised that the Hornby had already gone, and I wondered about their son, and whether he would feel about this as my Dad did.

Posted by geroff (# 3882) on :

As an uncle to various ages of children. And also as a person who bought his last lego at age 15* - there are families I know who have been bought every toy and book there is by the time they are 7. So what do they play with when they are 10?

* I probably bought my next lego age 27 when I decided it was far too complicated for my Nephew!
And now, age 52 - I draw for a living, build model trains and have been known to get the lego out! (I mean childhood lego - kept in a box that contained a cassette recorder from 1971).

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

geroff:

quote:
So what do they play with when they are 10?

In our experience; plastic ponies, Playmobil, cuddly toys. Computer games about ponies, dogs and zoos. Reads books about ponies and other animals. Do you see a theme developing here?

Ours also likes boardgames and card games intended for slightly older children and adults - Jaipur, Carcassonne, Galaxy Truckers, but still watches some of her favourite DVDs from when she was a toddler.

By the time they're 10 they have developed a range of interests so they're all different. If you know them well enough you will think of something. If you don't, a voucher for Toys R Us or some cold hard cash will be greeted with shrieks of joy (because then they get the fun of choosing something themselves, you see).

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

As other's have noted the pink/blue thing used to be the other way round in the UK/US. Until very recently (the change probably fuelled by English-language tv and film) it was pink for a boy and blue for a girl on continental Europe too. Or at least Netherlands, Belgium and Italy to my knowledge. Being Catholic countries, I assume it's something to do with the connection with BVM-blue and Jesus-red in paintings and statuary.

I definitely agree it's all a marketing thing and that it's definitely got worse over time. I spotted a 'girl's first word book' the other day. If anyone can tell me why a girl's first words are different to a boy's I'd like to know. It's just in the hope that parents will buy two books.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
How can we create reasonable non-sexist worlds for our children when conversations like the following happen over and over:

Person: Look at him climbing over that support, he's so smart!
Me: She, but thanks!
Person: I'm sorry! I meant she's so pretty!

Used to get that all the time with my daughter because her hair didn't really grow in until she was almost two.

Somebody has solved the problem of baby girls being mistaken for boys because they don't have a full head of hair. Yes! Wigs for baby girls! Because it's better for a baby girl to look freaky than to look gender-non-specific.

Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on :

<incoherent noises> [Projectile]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Somebody has solved the problem of baby girls being mistaken for boys because they don't have a full head of hair. Yes! Wigs for baby girls! Because it's better for a baby girl to look freaky than to look gender-non-specific.

There are no words.

(Although that problem was already solved in these parts, by adhesive "hair" bows. You can tell the girl, because she has a pink bow stuck to the wisps of hair she doesn't have.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

There used to be frilly bonnets with little flowers embroidered on them.

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