Ship of Fools: Debt Collection Companies

Thread: Debt Collection Companies Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by would love to belong (# 16747) on :

Thought I might share my experience on this. What follows is UK specific but may have some relevance elsewhere.

For several months I have been coming home to messages from various debt recovery companies on my landline phone all asking a certain named male individual to call them as a matter of urgency. This person is not known to me and has never lived at my address (which I purchased as a newly-built address in 1993and have occupied continuously since). Today, being on leave, I answered the landline at just after 9am and heard a recorded message from a (debt recovery company based in the north of England)saying that if I did not contact them I would TODAY receive a visit in person from "one of their representatives" to my great embarrassment (no name of the person allegedly owing them money given). So I duly pressed button 3 and (after a hold of some 10 minutes) got to speak to one of their "customer representatives". The guy knew the landline number which I was calling from and asked to speak to the named male person whose messages I have been receiving for some months. I eplained that no such person was known to me, that no such person lived at my address or had e er lived at my address and provided my address and postcode. I asked what address they had on file for the named male individual but was told this was confidential, but it wasn't my address. It appeared that, at some point, this male individual had given my landline number. I asked why they had not checked to what address my landline number related (I am a BT subscriber and my number is not ex directory). I was told that this was not their practice. I expressed concern that they had phoned my number with the threat of an "embarrassing personal visit" and asked what form of embarrassment I might expect from one of their agents, should one call as threatened. I was told that I would not be receiving a visit so I was not to worry (glad about that).

As someone who has never had the misfortune to be in the clutches of this type of cowboy outfit, I was appalled by Thor tactics. I have emailed a complaint to OFT and received a pro forma reply to the effect that they will investigate this company and their fitness to hold a consumer credit licence.

Enquiry on the internet suggests the company specialise in the purchase and recovery of payday loans. Enough said.

Posted by would love to belong (# 16747) on :

quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
Thought I might share my experience on this. What follows is UK specific but may have some relevance elsewhere.

For several months I have been coming home to messages from various debt recovery companies on my landline phone all asking a certain named male individual to call them as a matter of urgency. This person is not known to me and has never lived at my address (which I purchased as a newly-built address in 1993and have occupied continuously since). Today, being on leave, I answered the landline at just after 9am and heard a recorded message from a (debt recovery company based in the north of England)saying that if I did not contact them I would TODAY receive a visit in person from "one of their representatives" to my great embarrassment (no name of the person allegedly owing them money given). So I duly pressed button 3 and (after a hold of some 10 minutes) got to speak to one of their "customer representatives". The guy knew the landline number which I was calling from and asked to speak to the named male person whose messages I have been receiving for some months. I eplained that no such person was known to me, that no such person lived at my address or had e er lived at my address and provided my address and postcode. I asked what address they had on file for the named male individual but was told this was confidential, but it wasn't my address. It appeared that, at some point, this male individual had given my landline number. I asked why they had not checked to what address my landline number related (I am a BT subscriber and my number is not ex directory). I was told that this was not their practice. I expressed concern that they had phoned my number with the threat of an "embarrassing personal visit" and asked what form of embarrassment I might expect from one of their agents, should one call as threatened. I was told that I would not be receiving a visit so I was not to worry (glad about that).

As someone who has never had the misfortune to be in the clutches of this type of cowboy outfit, I was appalled by their tactics. I have emailed a complaint to OFT and received a pro forma reply to the effect that they will investigate this company and their fitness to hold a consumer credit licence.

Enquiry on the internet suggests the company specialise in the purchase and recovery of payday loans. Enough said.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Sounds like you might have to change your phone number. I think that will be the only way for you to stop these calls, unfortunately.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

Or alternatively, just ignore them.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

If you allow it to play out, the problem will probably go away.

When I moved into my current flat, I discovered that one of the previous tenants had left the country owing a £400 mobile phone bill. There were a series of letters from Vodafone, who then handed the matter over to a debt collection agency. There followed several letters from them, threatening legal action, but nothing came of it. I think I eventually put 'return to sender, addressee has gone away' on one of them and they backed off.

Posted by AngloCatholicGirl (# 16435) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Sounds like you might have to change your phone number. I think that will be the only way for you to stop these calls, unfortunately.

I've had this problem twice before. First time, they had our office number and when they rang up, just asked for the first name. As I was the only person in the office with that first name the call kept putting the call through to me. I have no idea if they thought I was going to magically transform into the person they wanted. Eventually I demanded to speak to the manager and also the name and address of the company, I then gave them the name and address of my solicitors and informed them I would be instructing my solicitors to pursue the matter on grounds of harassment. Funnily enough they never called back.

The second time was our home phone and someone we'd never heard of, my husband was driven to the same tactic to get them to stop calling.

Posted by Signaller (# 17495) on :

I was given an extra landline at home for work-related purposes. Calls for a Mr X, from a call centre, began almost at once. On being told that no-one of that name lived here, or ever had done, they would apologise and hang up. My responses got steadily more robust, but the caller would never explain why they wanted X. I assumed it was debt collection, but on reflection it may have been something else. After a while, the calls stopped.

I still wonder who he was and whether they ever caught up with him.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

When we moved into our last house, we got a number of letters form a company of bailiffs. I called them, spending at least an hour on hold waiting for them, and told them that the previous occupant had moved out. They accepted this, and laughed off my concerns. Of course, the letters saying "we will come to your property and take items to the value of the debt" did not leave a lot of room for doubt.

They operate through fear and intimidation. There are some companies who I think should not be allowed to use these tactics - payday loan companies for a start.

In truth, it is worth talking to them, because they have to behave properly, or they lose their license. So they have to listen when you tell them to go fuck themselves.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

I can assure you the debt collectors will keep calling.

I have had some experience with debt collectors. A few years ago we had a trailer that was unlawfully repossessed; but, rather than fight it in court on the advice of our lawyer we just let the statute of limitations expire.

Every so often, though, we will get a call from a collection agency telling us we need to pay up. Whenever that happens, I just send them a letter from the state of Washington Attorney Generals office informing them that the statute has expired and if they keep calling legal action will be taken.

I found out that technically, though the statute has expired, the bank still considers it a valid debt and can try to collect on it at anytime, which means they will sell the debt to a new collector who then tries to collect from me. If I so much as send in a dollar on the old debt, though I revoke the statute and the clock starts ticking again.

So, about once a year we get a new debt collector calling about this old, old problem. I send in the letter and they stop.

So, my guess is as long as a debt collector has the phone number of the original poster, s/he will continue to get calls from time to time. Don't forget, the person who fraudulently used the phone number is till out there and is also most likely to use it again.

Best solution I can think of is get a new phone number.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I can assure you the debt collectors will keep calling.

I have had some experience with debt collectors.

Some time ago, I had a call from some debt collectors asking whether I knew anything about a Mr X who lived several doors away, and who they had been unable to make contact with with regard to an outstanding debt.

I told them that I had noticed floral tributes from a funeral about a month earlier at a house with roughly the right number, and suggested that they check the register of deaths.

A couple of houses later, I had a number of phonecalls for a previous owner of the phone number. Half were from debt collectors, and the other half were from people offering employment (all to the same person). I think I spent about 6 months telling them that I didn't know the person, and then all the calls stopped.

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

They operate through fear and intimidation. There are some companies who I think should not be allowed to use these tactics - payday loan companies for a start.

I don't think the origin of the debt is relevant to the behaviour that should be allowed for debt collectors.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

In the United States once a number is assigned to a phone it is not reassigned once the phone becomes inactive--at least not yet.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In the United States once a number is assigned to a phone it is not reassigned once the phone becomes inactive--at least not yet.

Might depend on where you live. I've read that used to be a phone number terminated wouldn't be reassigned for a year or more, but now it is sometimes reassigned in a month or two, because there is so much demand for phone numbers.

My cell phone had debt collectors calling right from the week I got it, but when I tired of the calls (I don't answer calls from toll free numbers) and finally answered one, I said "no such person, this is a new cell for me" they were polite and promised to take me off the list, which did happen.

But I got another such call recently - the comment up-thread about an old debt being handed to a new collection company each year may explain why.

Trouble is, you turn it in for a new number and that new number might have the same problems all over again.

Several *years* after I got my landline number someone called about a debt from a name I don't know. The debtor probably gave a made up or mistaken number that just accidentally was mine.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
In the United States once a number is assigned to a phone it is not reassigned once the phone becomes inactive--at least not yet.

Not so. From here:

quote:
Numbers previously assigned to residential customers may be aged for no more than 90 days. Numbers previously assigned to business customers may be aged for no more than 365 days.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
As someone who has never had the misfortune to be in the clutches of this type of cowboy outfit, I was appalled by Thor tactics. I have emailed a complaint to OFT and received a pro forma reply to the effect that they will investigate this company and their fitness to hold a consumer credit licence.

Enquiry on the internet suggests the company specialise in the purchase and recovery of payday loans. Enough said.

That's the best route tbh. Sometimes though, they take no notice and it is essential to take legal action.

If you can get an address from the caller put it in writing that you will contact the Police and/or instruct a Solicitor if such things continue, confirming that they will be liable to your costs if such action is followed.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

When we moved into a new house 16 years ago we kept getting letters addressed to a man we didn't know and I sent them back to the sender with a message on the envelope saying the same.
The letters kept coming so one day I opened one to discover the threat of someone coming to the house to collect the debt.

There was a phone number so I called it, explained that I had been sending the letters back and asking them not to send some stranger to visit us. (We had teenage daughter at home on exam leave and I didn't want her intimidated whilst we were out at work)

The company were very rude to me and told me off for having opened the letter as it was addressed to someone else....at that point my husband was still a practising lawyer so in indignation I played that card and they quickly changed their tune.

But what about the people who don't have recourse to such things?

Posted by would love to belong (# 16747) on :

I'd like to name the company I was speaking to....but won't (don't worry, Hosts). But they're widely discussed on various internet forums as being a bunch of cowboys with very questionable methods. But by no means the only ones.

By the way, there is useful advice on debt collection agencies, and dealing with them, on the Martin Lewis money website.

One thing highlighted on the various money discussion boards is that bailiffs (in Scotland, sheriff officers) can only act where there is a proved debt, that it, where there is a county court judgement in England (CCJ) or a decree of debt in Scotland. Bailiffs (or sheriff officers) are very strictly controlled and are the only ones who can come round and seize goods (and only after exhaustve procedures are followed).

Debt collection companies chase up debts (allegedly) owed but before any court proceedings. They have no right to enter your house/business premises or to seize goods. If they turn up at your door, you can tell them they are trespassing and to get off your property. If they don't, call the police.

Often debt collection companies send letters saying that "your goods may be seized" if you don't pay up. Theoretically, correct, but it won't be the debt company that will be doing the seizing. The tactic is to frighten the (alleged) debtor into paying up without court action. No seizing can take place without the preliminary of a county court judgement against the debtor.

[ 13. August 2013, 11:00: Message edited by: would love to belong ]

Posted by would love to belong (# 16747) on :

PS I should add, of course, that if the debt is genuinely owed you should always pay up IF YOU CAN before a CCJ is obtained (which will affect your credit rating).

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :

While some of the tactics of some collection agencies are dubious, don't forget that they are pursuing someone who has defaulted on a loan. Maybe they shouldn't have had the loan in the first place or maybe they are just trying to get out of paying. The original creditor will have tried the polite approach and the law approach and no doubt several other approaches and this is all that's left. In the case of a debtor who is trying to avoid repayments (ie a thief or something similar) I have no sympathy if they find themselves on the wrong end of debt recovery procedures.

If the agency has the wrong details for a debtor (and can be persuaded that this is the case and not further attempts at evasion) then clearly it is not in their interests to continue, whether they are dodgy or not.

Posted by would love to belong (# 16747) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
While some of the tactics of some collection agencies are dubious, don't forget that they are pursuing someone who has defaulted on a loan. Maybe they shouldn't have had the loan in the first place or maybe they are just trying to get out of paying. The original creditor will have tried the polite approach and the law approach and no doubt several other approaches and this is all that's left. In the case of a debtor who is trying to avoid repayments (ie a thief or something similar) I have no sympathy if they find themselves on the wrong end of debt recovery procedures.

If the agency has the wrong details for a debtor (and can be persuaded that this is the case and not further attempts at evasion) then clearly it is not in their interests to continue, whether they are dodgy or not.

Thanks Rogue.

I would not, of course, dispute that if the debt is lawfully yours, and you are able to pay, you should pay up immediately and without question.

there are, however, grey areas where a person has suffered a calamity since incurring the debt (eg divorce, job loss, illness) where it is not possible to take such a black and white approach.

The tactics of the debt recovery companies should always be fair and reasonable. They want to recover the debt WITHOUT recourse to court proceedings (which may be expensive, and still not result in the recovery of the debt) so they use scare tactics to get debtors to pay up. these tactics can weigh heavily on the poor, the disorganised, those panicking due to unmanageable debt, those without access to good advice, those lacking in intelligence or education, the young, the socially disadvantaged etc. Paradoxically, the civil courts (at least, in Scotland, to my knowledge) WILL protect debtors in these groups IF they engage with the process. If they don't, the creditor gets judgement by default and the debtor is in even greater s**t.

It's a hard, bad world [Frown]

[ 13. August 2013, 11:51: Message edited by: would love to belong ]

Posted by Lothiriel (# 15561) on :

My daughter has the misfortune of having a name similar to that of someone with credit problems. We were first contacted by a collection agency when our daughter was 14. It took some work to convince them that she was not the person they were looking for. Their investigator had merely gone through the phone book, and had reached my husband's father, who somewhat naively said, "Oh, you're looking for my granddaughter," and gave him our number. Then the investigator, without any further checking, gave our number to the collection agency.

A few years ago, she was hounded again. These people were quite harsh with her, and again, they took a lot of convincing. They didn't really care if they had the right person--all they wanted was someone who would pay up if they were sufficiently bullied.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

As The Rogue has suggested, look at the other side of this. You own a small business. Someone has bought goods or services from you. Several months later, despite reminders, they haven't paid you. What are you going to do? You have bills and wages to pay. This is where a debt collection agency often comes in.

A few years ago, someone committed identity theft against me. I began to get letters from a well-known retailer, which I thought were junk mail and threw away without reading them. It was only when a letter came from a debt collector that I paid attention. What had happened is that someone had used my name and address to open an account, racked up several hundred pounds of spending, and disappeared.

I explained to the agents that I wasn't the person they were looking for, and with the help of an online identity theft agency, the matter was cleared up in a few weeks. The debt collectors assured me from the outset that if I really wasn't the person they were looking for, I had nothing to worry about.

I'm sure there are some very nasty debt collectors out there, but to some extent it's their job to be unpleasant - the pleasant approach will usually already have been tried, and failed. But even the bad ones have to be careful - if they get it wrong, you can sue them more or less out of business.

But - this is something I've heard, perhaps someone can confirm? - it's less easy to hold them to account if all you've done is ignore them. To some degree, it's your responsibility to tell them you're not who they're looking for.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

If you are owed money, then you will want it back at some point. Most people pay, a significant % do not. Of these some can pay but don't like to; others can pay but won't; still more can't. The third group deserve sympathy and help, the costs involved in chasing the other 2 groups keep rates and charges unnaturally high.

When it comes to dealing with debt, the relevant legislation IIRC is the Administration of Justice Act (1972). That act makes it illegal to threaten anyone over a debt that belongs to them. Of course, it doesn't prevent a company seeking to make contact to discuss a debt or to stop them sending out a letter indicating that court action may or will follow. The wording though of such letters must be precise and phone calls must not be persistent or at inappropriate times (ie after 9 pm).

If you are chased for something that doesn't belong to you, either return the letter marked "left - return to sender" or explain, politely on the phone what the details are. Most "brown envelopes" will have a name and address on the back unless you are EM (in a previous life) who sent out handwritten envelopes that were birthday or Christmas card sized (well, the big battle is to get someone to read the letter).

Phone is good as all calls are normally recorded and if you play it right and repeat the facts, mantra like, it will be recorded. If the contact continues offer to see them in court, intimating that they will be liable for your time etc - if they won't pay you can take out a small claims application at the same time for recovery of time and work.

Only a bailiff can remove property in England over a debt - and only then with a court order. You don't even have to let them in but beware they have all sorts of tricks to try that. My advice is keep a mobile phone running on video/sound if you ever get to the point where your are continually chased for something that isn't yours. A sensible lender will recognise that they've made a mistake and will back off: the non sensible ones may not.

If someone's bought the debt (yes there's a market for it - catalogue debts could once be bought for 5% of face value such that £100 debt was saleable at £5), expect a very robust approach to get their money back. In that case, try arranging a meeting if they persist with a solicitor or the police present. Issuing a small claims application before that stage will usually get your way but you might have the joy of getting an order on the them and seeing a bailiff go in to recover your money. IME about 1% get that far.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But - this is something I've heard, perhaps someone can confirm? - it's less easy to hold them to account if all you've done is ignore them. To some degree, it's your responsibility to tell them you're not who they're looking for.

It's a company's responsibility to get it right. But if you ignore them and/or tear up letters you may end up with a CCJ (based on albeit wrong facts but that's all the court has to go on: they don't know the "you" involved).

It would be overturned when it comes to your attention but it's a bit tricky to unpick, has to be done through the court, may appear on a credit search and might then affect your borrowing potential. All for having done nothing and then ignoring a warning! Time and effort and money - all of which you're unlikely to recover in full or at all. Sort it pronto and you'll sleep sounder and perhaps have more pennies.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

We have gotten phone calls in the past for someone who shares my last night but not the first name of anyone in our household. We let them ring over to our answering machine. They eventually stop.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

About ten years ago I had a long fit of the madness and couldn't cope with opening my mail. Unfortunately that included some bills. It was a fairly small amount I owed - around £500 but it was passed to a debt collection agency. They were absolutely horrific. I explained to them the situation and asked if I could pay them back at £100 a month which they agreed to. Despite their agreement and the fact I immediately set up a direct debit and paid it back as agreed they still phoned up at least twice a week demanding that I paid them more. When I finished paying the debt I asked for a letter from them saying that I had done so. A few days later they sent me a letter saying I owed them £200. I phoned to discuss this and they apologised and told me to ignore it. Later that week I got a call from them saying they would send the baliffs round if I didn't pay this £200 I didn't owe them immediately. They said they would tell my employer if I didn't pay them. It took them about four months to sort out their error during which time they continually harassed me.

At the time I was very unwell, just about hanging on to my job and trying to cope. They were horrible, aggressive and they must have sent me a letter or phoned me almost every day. I dreaded the phone going and it was just a horrific experience. I know it was my own fault for not opening my mail but they shouldn't behave like that.

As a result every single bill now comes out of my bank account by direct debit to prevent this happening if I become ill again. But I do think they are utter bastards.

I also cynically believe that if you owe someone a grand you'll be treated significantly worse than if you owe them a million. They make their money out of vulnerability.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I also cynically believe that if you owe someone a grand you'll be treated significantly worse than if you owe them a million. They make their money out of vulnerability.

So sorry to hear that Chive. May you know peace over it.

What happened to you constitutes harassment and was breaking the law: that's a criminal act akin to extortion, not like the civil one of owing money.

You may be cynical but you're also right. IME (17 years in the biggest Building Society in the UK - no, the world), if you're going to go bust, do it big time and declare bankruptcy. Get it, use it, blow it, then reload. Enjoy the cash while it lasts.

If you end up owing a grand or so, expect to be chased - you probably have something worth selling to make up the debt - oh, and expect any accounts you may have with that same group to be frozen, as soon as you default on one loan or account. (There's a clause in the small print which allows this to happen).

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

No honest company does cold-contact by text or email and asks for a phone call back these days. There are just too many scams that start that way. Treat it as spam. Text is even less secure than email and its eaven easier to trick people into paying money through it.

I get texts on one of my mobile phones claiming to be from such a company and asking to contact someone I've never heard of urgently. It gives a phone number to ring back. I think its probably spam. An attempt to get suckers to call a number that pays the company. So delete unanswered.

Its the same as email spam or junk mail in the letterbox. If they want an answer from me they'll have to give me some better way of contacting them than a phone number - I'm not going to return calls to a number I don't recognise. Maybe I did twenty years ago, but not this century.

If they want to be taken seriously - whether they claim to be debt-collectors or penis-enlargers or Nigerians with thirty million Euros to give to charity - they need to give a street address and real email address that can accept replies. If its only a phone number, or only a dodgy-looking web-sitie, then either they are spammers, or else they are too ignorant to know how not to look like spammers. If they are genuine they need to grow up and smell the 21st century.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
We have gotten phone calls in the past for someone who shares my last night....

Unless your personal life is much more interesting than most people's I suspect that you didn't exactly mean "last night"
[Smile]

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

Thanks, Ken. Of course "night" should be "name". [Smile]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

Might make a great first line to a country-western song though... (end tangent)

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I also cynically believe that if you owe someone a grand you'll be treated significantly worse than if you owe them a million. They make their money out of vulnerability.

Yes. If you're in debt with no assets then you're buggered. If you're in debt with some assets then you use those assets to pay an insolvency practitioner to get you a better deal, and end up better off even if you have more bad debt than the asset-less person ...

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chive:

I also cynically believe that if you owe someone a grand you'll be treated significantly worse than if you owe them a million. They make their money out of vulnerability.

That reminds me of the old saying that if you owe the bank a thousand, you've got a problem. If you owe them a million,
they've got a problem.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:
Originally posted by chive:

I also cynically believe that if you owe someone a grand you'll be treated significantly worse than if you owe them a million. They make their money out of vulnerability.
That reminds me of the old saying that if you owe the bank a thousand, you've got a problem. If you owe them a million,
they've got a problem.

And if you owe them a hundred billion the government will pay it back for you.

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